Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Tim Sullivan - longtime friend of Craig and author of DS George Cross books

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

Tim Sullivan and Craig have known each other for more than 30 years. That means they were both running wild doing stupid things. Then they both got older Tim worked in TV and movies (Alfresco, Sherlock Holmes, Flused Away, Shrek 4) as Craig went to the US to star in TV and host a late night talk show.  When the world shut down in 2020, Tim found a new passion, writing detective novels. Specifically a series of detective novels featuring the title character DS George Cross. The books, nearing 10 in total were first self-published but have since been picked up and published in various different languages. On October 21st his new book, The Dentist will be published by Grove Atlantic. You can order it here. Craig sits down with his old friend and reminisces of their time growing up, tell some incredible stories about their friendship and how Tim found a new secondary career later in life. 

This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come and see my brand new comedy hour. Well, actually, it's about an hour and a half, and I don't have an opener because these guys cost money. But what I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while. Anyway, come and see me live on the Pants on Fire Tour in your region. Tickets are on sale now and we'll be adding more as the tour continues throughout 2025 and beyond.

For a full list of dates, go to the Craigfergersonshow.com. see you on the road my dears welcome to the joy podcast my name is Craig Ferguson I am the host of this podcast as you can see behind me in the beautiful streets and chimney suites

and Victorian urchins I'm in London and my guest today is a very fancy London detective writer he's not detective he's a writer of detective fiction his name

is Tim Sullivan so Tim what we're going to do I think is what we have to do first as I want to talk about let's begin with George Cross George Cross the

antagonist of the series of books have you written with George in him now finishing book 8 on Wednesday well you're finishing it on Wednesday do you know you're going to finish it on Wednesday like and I will write chapter 100 on Wednesday

no I can't well I've always worked to deadlines because I was a screenwriter for most of the first of life so I kind of need to have deadlines. I better know. On Wednesday, I deliver it the following Wednesday, so I like a week to just read. Read through it. He reads through it for a week. We can go, oh, no. I, but I feel like we should, fair disclosure, I read the first George Cross book, which was the dentist, right? Which is, when is that going out in America? October 21st. October 21st, right? Now, I read that before it was published. Yeah. And I said to you, this is really good. This is really good time. You should keep going with these. This is a really, what a great invention. So really, the credit for the George Cross books should really be

me. Yeah, a lot of people have said that. I think so, because although I didn't write them or have anything to do with the writing of them, I gave you early encouragement, and that's got to be 10%, I think. Seven and a half. Fair enough. I'll take it. But why did you go into Detective Ryan? Well, it was kind of, I mean, the joke I always make is I just worked on My Little Pony, the New Generation, and the only place for me to go was crime fiction. Did you write? I co-wrote and co-produced and co-produced it. You co-wrote and co-produced My Little Pony?

A new generation. I haven't seen that one. Yeah. It's... What happens? What happens? Does the pony commit a murder or somebody killed? Has anybody killed?

No, no, no. Well, then, why were you involved? You write about grisly murders. That was after. All right. I didn't know I did then. Well, what happened in the little pony thing then? How did you...

Magic had left the world. Magic had let... A friend of mine, I worked on a movie years ago called Flushed Away, an Ardman movie. I love that movie, flushed away. Do you know what that was wrong with that movie? Only one thing wrong with that movie. The title. Yeah.

That was the only... That was a great movie. It's kind of English. Yeah, it was... But it also, it made it sound like toilets. Yeah. And it's not really toileting. No.

Who did the main voice in that film again? Hugh Jackman. Hugh Jackman. Has he done okay for himself since then? Not seen much of him recently. No, he doesn't done much. But, you know, God bless him. He was, he was keen.

He was lovely. Yeah, he was lovely. That's right. Fleshed away. I loved that. My boys loved that film. So the producer on that was working on My Little Pony, which had run into some trouble.

And so they brought me in to do a couple of weeks' work. Save the spacey I ended up being there for a year. Fuck a off. It's true. We've got problems with my little pony. Get Tim in here. She was talking to me. We'd been talking about 45 minutes,

and she was saying, you know, we had the problem with the movie and we're 12 million in and, you know, we've done the animatronic. And I kept saying to her, what's it called? And she kept avoiding the question. All right. And then finally, about an hour after this conversation,

she said, will you do it? And I said, what is it? And she said, it's my little pony. And I went, you're talking to Tim Sullivan. You do you realize this? And she went, I know. And actually it was a wonderful experience. I blew the thing up and we started again.

I don't really, look, my children are both boys. Your children are both girls. So I don't really come across My Little Pony, to be honest. Did you know anything about My Little Pony? Yeah, I knew a fair bit about it. But the interesting thing is, you know, as a brand, it's one of the biggest brands in the world. It's bigger than Nike.

It's bigger than, I think it's second to Coca-Cola. But My Little Pony, as recognition as a brand around the world. What happens? Who is, is there a little pony in it? I've really got a little stup of ponies. There are unicorns. Right. There are ponies.

I can't believe you worked on this. This is fantastic. How long have I known you since we were like in our 20s? Yeah. And you worked in my little pony. I didn't even know. Nor did I. Yeah, so I'd finish that and they kind of, and COVID came along.

Yeah, right, yeah. And caused by ponies. Caused by ponies. Yeah, woo and ponies. And I kind of felt I'd really like to try. I'd always wanted to write a book. I'd never had the guts. And I thought, why don't I try a book?

And I've done a lot of research into autism over the years. I'd always been interested in it, particularly in the workplace. I'm going to write a detective novel, and I'm going to make the character autistic and in a profoundly sort of authentic way, rather than, you know, he's not a detective who looks at something and see clues coming out of the time. Yeah, he doesn't have a magical parrot. It does that advantage. Yeah.

And so I thought, I'll just give it a go, and I'll send it to a friend of us, James Moore. Oh, James, I've hugely talented television producer. But he also, you know, he was a prize winning novelist. Yeah. When he was a kid. Tresk in his 20s. Yeah. So I sent it to him and said, look, you know, I sent 30,000 words.

I said, look, if it's no good, just tell me. Right. And I'll stop. And about two weeks later, this email came back saying, off, it's brilliant. And that was it. So I decided to finish the book. Right.

And then I got turned down by everyone. I got turned down. Why do you get it turned down because you're not autistic? Was that what it was? Yeah. They said you can't write a book about autism if you're not autistic yourself, which is, do you have any attachment or any, do you have any family attachment? Just the people I've known over the years.

Right. No, it's just something that interested me in the way it's perceived. I would imagine you would have to do a lot of research years and years of research and this is where it's sort of culminated by an accident and you know if you look at Sherlock Holmes if you look at Auguste Dupin you know yeah I suppose right

you put them all on the spectrum now yeah you would let's Sherlock Holmes in particular I imagine like testing out you know various what is that a thousand different types of tobacco and all that stuff yeah you would definitely say that seems although But I know, people use the word spectrum all that.

I know nothing about autism. I just hear people using the word quite lazily, I think, actually. Yeah, I mean, it's so the recognition of it has changed in many ways. Right. And, you know, my character has what used to be called Asperger's. But it's no longer called Asperger's because, hence Asperger's now been proven to have had links with the Nazis where he was providing autistic children. Oh, good.

And it would have been rumored, but now an American academic found correspondence. that proved it. So it's now called autistic spectrum condition. And it's a fascinating thing because it's so broad. The spectrum is so broad. Yeah, it's, I mean, there's, it's really, it's really down to the individuals. Yeah, exactly. It looks like the person that has it, right? Yeah. And I mean, so I was told that I couldn't, the publishers wouldn't touch me. Right. Because I, because I, because it was neuroscientific appropriation. Is that a thing? Well, it was then. I'm not sure if it is now.

Right. So I then... So what's the... Hold on for a second. What's the rationale between neuroscientific and pros and appropriation? That means if you do not have the condition on what you're writing about, then... You can't write about. You can't write about serial killers unless you're a serial killer, right?

You can't write about crime unless you're a criminal. And I... And, you know, I don't... You know, I've done a lot of really deep research into it. And his portrayal is very... The authenticity of his portrayal is very important to me. Yeah, right. It's also, he's, he's extremely likable kind of.

Yeah. I don't know if, I mean, he's not particularly sweet character, right? No. But he's very likable. He's very engaging, kind of, what I, well, what I said to Rachel, my wife, was, look, you know, I've done so much work on this. I've pretty much written two books. I'm going to self-publish. Self-publishing has become this huge.

I've talked to a lot of authors on this podcast about self-publish. And Larry Block does all, as someone knows. So I thought, right, and what I will do is I'll self-publish these two novels. And if I get pushed back by the autistic community, not by anyone else. Right. But by the autistic community, I'll stop. Right. And quite the opposite has happened.

Interesting. And it's been quite humbling. The number of emails I've got from people saying, my child has autism, how did you get inside his head? a woman came up to me at a crime festival and said I just wanted to thank you and I said why and she said well you've made me understand my 13 year old daughter I now have a proper relationship with her and it's thanks to your books and it's kind of overwhelming and it wasn't obviously what I set out to do

I can see how that would happen though because in the books not only do you have a detective who is you know working with the the construction of his personality right which is within the autism spectrum, but you also have that detective's family life, his backstory, what happened to him, how he grew up, how it affected him. So it's like, it's a completely rounded character. It's not just, there's been a murder detective, right away, let me get my pipe. The game's afoot, what's, I mean, which is fine, but it's not that. It's more than that. And it's more mundane in a funny sort of way. I don't do the kind of guy who's been crucified upside down

with his cog stuck in his mouth off. All right, all right. Let's not do that. No, we don't. It's It's kind of more ordinary times. Sort of English murders. Someone's been killed. Yeah, which is dreadful. Yeah. It's absolutely dreadful. I mean, yeah.

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I think the secret with George is, what's been remarkable is how the character has resonated with the reader. I never get emails about the plot or the writing. It's always about George. Well, I think there. Because, like, if I was going, because I've read them all. I haven't read the one you're going to finish on Wednesday, but I will, obviously.

And what I get from it is it's one of those things that you like, I mean, Sherlock Holmes does this, you know, tons of, not just detective, no, do that you create a world and you want to go into that world and you want to roll around in it. And because of the nature of George's profession, that will involve a murder, right? It gives you a narrative line. But it's really about being in the world, isn't it? Yeah, I think so. And I mean, he's got, you know, he's got great characters around him. He has his, he has, um, his working partnerotti.

Yeah. He's almost his conduit to the real world. Right. It translates for him. Yeah. But she understands him because he's quite eccentric in the way he works. Yeah. And, and his father, who's devoted to him, who was an engineer, um, their relationship is very

special character, I think. Well, I think he's probably on the spectrum as well. Yeah. Well, I never thought of that. Yeah. But it's, but, well, you know, in this kind of. country, you often find that with male, people with ASC, the father is something like an engineer. Yeah.

In Silicon Valley, they're all coders. You know, the parents are all coders. I think it was, I don't know if it was, um, Zuckerberg or someone was asked, you know, would he be surprised to find out that a lot of his employees were autistic, to which you replied, I'd be surprised if they were. Right. I guess it's, some professions, it would probably be more welcoming to having that condition. Do you think a homicide detective, have you met an autistic policeman?

Have you come across? No, I've had emails from. Oh, really? Yeah. I've had emails from about three or four, one female serving police officer. You know, I often get emails saying, but I've had the other email saying, well, how would he get through the police? Academy. You go, there you go, there's the prejudice about autism, right in the remote. Why shouldn't he? He's really, really good at what he does. Right. And he does it in a very

unique way. I saw a documentary once by Simon Baron Cohen, you know, as Professor of Autism at Cambridge. Right. And he had done this thing about putting autistic people into job situations where they might not sort of be welcomed. Right. And there was one in a small company where they were having a real problem with software. It was a software glitch and they could not work it out. It was costing him a load of money and this autistic bloke went in and went, well, if you could just give me the key instructions and they went, but there are hundreds and thousands of them, he went, yes, but if you just give me those, and he sat for about five days and just

went through with the patients, no one else would, and found the problem. Right. Immediately was employed. Very interesting. And it really is something I know nothing about. And in fact, in literature, even I hadn't encountered it, certainly in a, I guess if you talk about Sherlock Holmes and stuff like that, then, yeah.

But I had never encountered it as a description of a character. Yeah. I don't think I've seen it. Are you aware of? Well, there's Mark Haddon's curiosity of the dog in the night. Right. The instance of the dog. I have a wonderful book.

Yeah. And he got a bit of flack at the time because he's, He's not autistic. You know, I was asked if my children were autistic, and you think, what does that got to do with anything? I think the thing is that my character's autism isn't like Inspector Morse's Jaguar. It's not an eccentric.

Yeah, it's not an eccentricity. Yeah, you're right. It's not a gimmick. And it's quite difficult because, you know, there are certain rules. I was going to ask you that when you're writing it, are there times when you think, you wouldn't, you can't do that

because that doesn't follow the rules. Yeah, absolutely. and it's really, I get quite cross with him at times. Well, I mean, are you going to be able to finish by Wednesday? I'm worried, no. No, I think so. I think so, yeah, no. I think we're okay.

But it's, it is, actually, as I told you, just to think about this. You know, why do you think, Tim, that you have to get this finished by Wednesday? Do you think maybe, Tim, you'll be going to pick up on a few of George's habit? Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like, I said Wednesday,

and therefore it will be. It will be Wednesday. It has to be done by Wednesday. Wednesday. I kind of have to know how much I'm writing. I have a certain, I can write a certain amount in a day and then it's gone, it's spent. Right. And it's around about 2,000 words a day, a good day. Right. And so I can sort of calculate. And with me, coming from a screenwriting TV film background, I had to be very careful that my novels weren't very episodic, that the rhythms of the books initially were quite episodic and you it's such a different skill writing a book

and so kind of knowing how much I'm writing dictates in my head how much I'm proportionate I'm giving to scenes and sequences did you start thinking like when I first met you we were in Manchester yeah right and it was it's got to be about 1988 something like that right yeah it's four years before I got sober yeah certainly I see me right remember you going toe to toe to in a few bars with me at that time. I don't remember that. Oh, okay. But the, uh, you were working on Sherlock Holmes. Yeah, I was doing the, you were directing the Sherlock Holmes with Jeremy Brett. Yeah, these were great shows. Yeah,

they were terrific shows and he was, I think he was an incomparable. He was a great. He was a he was a, him, him and Basil Rathbone are my favorites. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're, they're the real, I think of Sherlock Holmes is that kind of hawk-faced, you know, hair, like, yeah, back yeah yeah him and uh jeremy breton brazil rath yeah and jeremy was just wonderful i mean mad as i had to and wonderful yeah brilliant brilliant actor but was it so did it begin then then the fascination i think so well i began before then i i came into crime fiction knowing and loving crime fiction through american crime fiction well who did you read chandler right hammett right and then lately michael connelly yeah oh yeah oh yeah i was fabulous writer michael connelly put me in one of

his books you know did he yeah i'm not trying to you know you know lead you but I'm in one of the Michael's books I'll take you out of this one then right well you're me in it oh see but I'm thinking of you know that all my titles are named after the victim right so does the dentist the politician the cyclist

the patient right the teacher right what's the new one called bookseller the the new one that I'm delivering on Wednesday at 1235 okay 1237 I think you said to me it's called the tailor the tailor

So, bloke that make Trouchers, yes. I am thinking of doing one called the comedian. Okay. So, you know. What about doing one? What, you would kill a comedian?

Yeah. Is that, like, that's getting cancelled. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it's funny that in the world. I guess it's, it's, you can kill anybody. Do anybody. Everyone gets killed.

Everyone dies. Yeah, everyone dies. Yeah. You know, some people get killed. It is that, you know, when I wrote The Monk, partly because... I love that one. I think that's my favorite. Oh, thank you.

Partly because, you know, I was an altar boy in a monetary until I was 16. Oh, oh, okay, but we'll get back to that. I think you might have to lie down and we'll do some therapy from that. And the question is, who wants to kill a monk? Yes. I remember that one. That's the key. That may actually be, as I think about it.

That may be the darkest one so far, the monk. Although I haven't read, you know, the, what's the new one called? The Taylor. I haven't read the Taylor. Yeah. The Taylor kind of, the tailor's good. It takes George into a slightly different world. Really? Yeah, yeah.

It doesn't take him out of Bristol, does it? No, it doesn't take him out of Bristol. He's very, very central to Bristol. Right. But it's, are you connected to Bristol? Yeah, I grew up in Bristol. All right. So you're allowed to write about Bristol. I'm allowed to write about Bristol.

Right, okay, because there aren't, because, you know, if you don't grow up in Bristol, you're not allowed to write about Bristol. But, you know, write about what you know. You know, that's the thing in the end. Right. And I now happen to know a bit about autism, not in the same way as, you know, Tony Hattwood, the Australian expert or Simon Baron Cohen or Temple Grandin.

But, you know, I know. Are these people, I know the Temple. Two of them are academics, Temple. Temple is an American who has written. Yeah, but she is autistic. She's autistic. Are the other ones autistic? No.

Okay. But it is, what's the study called, then? Is it a neuroscience thing? I say, yeah, it's neurodiverse, neurotypical. Right. But I mean, I'm reading all the time. I mean, you know, I've just read two books by two female stand-up comedians in this country

who are autistic. Really? Like, who's that? I can't remember the names. All right, fair enough, yeah. And, you know, I've just bought a book about being married to an autistic person. Which you are not, because I know your way.

No. But it's that notion of, hmm, Georgian relationships haven't really gotten there. That's interesting. Oh, yeah. But it's kind of like, I don't know enough about that.

Yeah. What's that Netflix show? Love on the Spectrum, have you seen that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I saw a couple of episodes. I don't know how comfortable I am with this.

I feel a little uncomfortable. I'm not sure why. Yeah, probably because you felt it was exploitative. that I kind of feel like like a lot of stuff is particularly any kind of reality television I'm like I feel like this is none of my business none of our business but also there's that

voyeuristic out you know it's like with George you know as well as having the rules where George George doesn't have any gut instincts about cases which is frustrating he doesn't have hunches he doesn't like a hunch yeah he doesn't speculate

he doesn't hypothesize right he lets others and we'll listen and I've completely forgot what I was going to say. No, but I was going to say to you about that, that thing that you're saying about George where he doesn't hypothesize it, he doesn't run scenarios, which is, of course, a staple of detective fiction

is he go, well, let's run the scenario. Maybe if he did this and do that. I mean, just about every other single detective you come across, they run the scenario, and he never does. Which I think is a really hard rule. say it yourself in that George. It's very tough. I mean, occasionally, his colleagues will do it.

But I remember what I was going to say, I have a rule about George, which is we never, ever laugh at George. No, no, he must. We often laugh at people around him in their reactions to him, and we often laugh when he's unknowingly funny. I mean, in the dentist,

one of my favorite lines, they start to investigate an ex-policeman who used to be his boss when he started. and you know he was treated quite badly he was bullied and he rings the doorbell and this retired police officer opens the door and goes oh it's PC odd to which George replies actually it's DS odd now and it's just like

and he doesn't mean it as a joke what he thinks it's really funny he doesn't get it he's just trying to point out that he's got the rank wrong right he's not going to question Yeah, the rudeness. The rudeness of it. Because he knows. But it's the inaccuracy, yeah.

And the great thing about George is he's very aware of his effect on other people. Right. He doesn't always understand it. Right. He's quite aware of it and that's why he's so brilliant at interviewing people. He'll ask the same question eight times as if it's the first time he's asked. That's right. I remember that from the interview scenes. Yeah.

It wears people down. And it wears people down. Yeah. And he doesn't respond emotionally. emotionally to their situation. What about the crimes themselves? I mean, because there are some, I remember now that the monk is a particularly grisly crime.

And there's a, the bookseller is a bit of a horrible crime as well. The crime aspect of it, did you do a lot of, I mean, have you been around a lot of morgues and murdered? Because I would imagine, especially doing Sherlock Holmes as well back in the day, you kind of, people get mad unless you get accurate about that. You've got to be accurate, but actually, again, during COVID, well, I was at the point in which I was thinking, oh, I'm not sure if I can write, whatever. I started looking around for writing courses. And I came across a degree in Dundee University, which was crime writing.

That's in Scotland. It is. That's where I'm from. Yeah. I'm very excited with this. And I have a degree, a master's in literature in crime fiction and forensic investigation. The front door. You from Dundee University.

Really? Did you go to Dundee? Yes. You didn't tell me that. Yeah, and Dundee is one of the central kind of areas of expertise of forensic science in Europe. And Dundee? Yeah, Dame Sue Black, who was the forensic anthropologist there and the head of the department, is world famous. Really?

She's down in Oxford. And she set up this course with Val McDermid. And there was a great story. they have a mortuary. They're very famous because they have taken on this thing where you embalm bodies called the teal method. When you embalm a body

they kind of go, well they're obviously lifeless, but they look lifeless, they look grey and their arms and stuff don't articulate properly when the rigour has gone. Teal preserves the flesh colour. Teal preserves all the articulation and the joints. A method of embalming. And you're taking technique? It's really for medical science.

Oh, okay. So that when doctors, when student doctors are, you know, dissecting hands, they still work and they can see how it works properly. Anyway, they suggested the Lee Child that they named the mortuary after him, to which he replied, not so sure the child mortuary. Yeah, no, that's bad. So I think it's the Val McDermid mortuary. But yeah, so I started with the first-year forensic scientists, and that was fascinating. you know, forensic anthropology, all the techniques. I mean, I know more about burned human remains

than I need to know, really. Does it keep me up in a lot of stuff? No, not as much as the acid reflux. Well, as anyone, you can die from acid reflux, but I don't know if you can kill anything. Well, you can maybe disguise it. Well, you disguise it? No, well, I mean, acid reflux, you know,

linked to perhaps bar its esophagus, like perhaps esophageal cancer which is what my dad died of right I don't know if you could like feed someone starchy foods

enough enough to kill it took me 50 years I killed him in the end I killed him with crackers yeah I don't know I'm with him

get my Rennies get my Rennies no now I'm sorry I can't hand you your your Tums tablets but

did you go up to Dundee then and poking them with dead bodies? Yeah. We didn't actually poke the dead bodies because of COVID restrictions. Oh, right. But we did... Oh, I see, you could get there.

Yeah, we did things like reassemble skeletons and we did lots of crime scene photography, but actually the... You ever been to a crime scene? No. No, that's probably too much.

But years ago, in the 80s, around about the time I met you, I went to Bordeaux to set up the ITV series of May Gray, which in the end... I didn't know you'd done that. Yeah, well, it didn't work out for me in the end. We had creative differences. Oh, okay.

That old chestnut. Yeah, yeah. And it was Michael... We say scheduling differences now. Michael Gambon, bless him. And who was lovely and was upset that I didn't end up doing it. But I was in Bordeaux, which was the way we were going to shoot Paris in the 50s because... Right.

And a friend of the location manager was a murder detective. So they took me into the archives and this was extraordinary because they brought out crime scene photographs from the 1950s and I remember one in particular it was a kitchen, a really down-a-heel kitchen and there was a man who looked like

he'd been garrotted at the oven and was dead and there was another man dead in the corner and the detective said so what do you think and I went well you know obviously he's been strangled by the wire and he went yeah yeah and I went the other body when I'm going

you're just looking in the wrong place what do you mean you went look at the table I looked at the table and I went it's a game of cards I went yeah how many hands I went three and he went there you go and I just thought oh that's brilliant so we get it the third hand's the killer

or is the third hand the killer there are only two bodies but there are three hands two bodies three hands a car so they were playing cards and someone went nuts and garotted one guy and who knows Right. Oh, they never found out? I didn't know.

I can't remember. All right. What you should do is do the Frenchman and then rewrite, put George on his holidays in France. Yeah, because you could go by train because he doesn't fly. Oh, that's right. Which is interesting because flying is the safest form of transport available. Yeah, well, in fact, that gives him a quandary because he has done his research and statistics. It's more to do with the proximity of people and the circulation of air.

but the circulation of air because I went through this I'm fascinated by flying as well and the idea that because during COVID people were terrified to fly it's like you get in a plane but the machines they use for air purification in airplanes

and big airliners similar to the ones that are used in operating rooms for purification so the air in a plane is pretty pure the airports are filthy but and of course over the course of a long flight the toilets on an airplane seem to get a little gamey

not from me I'm not saying I do it but you know all right it's me as I do it but I think I think the other thing that I think I do with George again partly because of

his condition is he's an outsider in a way and often his victims are outsiders who have lost their voice so like in I was trying and do a bit of social issue in the books and the dentist it's a homeless man right and the murder is dismissed

by the police as well it's homeless on the homeless violence and he sees that next to the body is a is a carrier bag with vodka in it vodka's huge currency on the streets yeah no one would have left no one would have left and that's what and he wants to and he and he what fascinates him is this man wasn't always homeless he's in his 50s or 80s I can't tell because the condition he's in right but he started somewhere where was that and did that lead to this and those are the kind of puzzles that fascinating And I think that the one thing I do is that when I start a book, I don't know who's killed the person. You don't.

You start with the murder and then you have to solve it. So that means George and I are always on the same page. I love that. Which means the reader is always on the same page. The reader can never get ahead. When I had one person at a crime festival and say, excuse me, I knew on page 157 who had done it. And I went, congratulations, because I didn't. That's interesting.

And, you know, if George, if I come to. a dead end which I often do not a writing block but a dead end well then George has and he's got to figure my way out that's fascinating as a writer he's got to figure my way out so obviously you feel a great deal of affection for him right I love George I mean I love George

I mean I you know it's it's wonderful to have found the character that you love spending time with that makes you laugh in the tailor I won't go into too much detail but there's a situation where someone needs to take his inside leg measurement

and it's a female and she says would you prefer if Malcolm did it to which he replies my discomfort is gender nonspecific. And I love that about George I don't know where it comes from but I love it and I well you know you understand the rules you understand George's rules and I think that's where it comes from might get it. I mean, it's interesting because the more that you read it, I feel like as a reader of

the stuff about George, I get to understand how it's going to play. When he goes into a situation, or if there's like a bad guy or a rude person or someone you're not rooting for, you're like, get him in a fucking room of George and we'll get this sort of thing. Yeah. And I think that's a great secret to successful writing is where the audience and with filmmaking can anticipate what your character is going to do. Right. So I think it's the politician or the teacher where Cross has his own office. He's the only one who has his own office because he can't work in the open area. Right.

Because he's got auditory problems. Right. You know, which people with autism sometimes do. So he can't stand all the noise. Cast down the sound of people typing. Can't stand the sound of people eating. You know, so he's got an office on his own. And I felt that George was having a bit of an easy right.

So I brought, I made Otty, his partner, move house. and then a new partner's brought in is an absolute wanker. Yes. And the audience know there's trouble. I know. When this detective is seen walking across the open area with two detectives behind him carrying a desk into cross his room. And the really goes, oh, go be bad.

Could be bad. You can't do this. And that, you know, I'm very fortunate. I'm two counts. I'm very fortunate to have discovered at my ancient age a new direction. Well, this is interesting. character because I've known you for years you're a director of film and television you write you write you write you write and direct film and television and in fact

the the last feature film I guess it was Jack and Sarah right which is the one that's the last one I wrote and directed right so which is a romantic yeah well a romantic story it does have a death it does have a dense in but that when I saw that I was like it reminded me of what happened at your wedding yeah which is that where it was from yeah Tell us, take us through briefly, if you don't mind what happened at your wedding. It was 89. Do you remember that?

I wasn't there. No. But I remember hearing. You were, I don't know where you were. I don't know if you knew where you were. I was three years before I got sober. So I was in the world. I was unavailable.

Yeah. Basically, sadly, tragically, as my wife and I left this little church in Gama Peninsula in Wales, it's beautiful. Right after. the ceremony right after ceremony walking down the pass and people are growing you know confetti and stuff towards the is it lich gate i think l i c h l y c h and rachel said he goes oh my god your father my father collapsed and i had a heart attack and died and so at my wedding yeah so literally minutes after we've had our last photograph taken together i'm giving him CPR and in an ambulance with him

and then we get to the hospital and he's gone. And it was a sort of terrible moment. It's a kind of I mean as a writer you remember these things because I remember

giving my father the CPR thumping his chest and thinking my parents got married in 1948 and I was thinking who won the best? Oscar for Best Director in 1948.

I don't know. Is that we good through your head? That sort of was going through my head. Weird is. What does it matter? What does it matter who won the Oscar? This is what happens to all of us. And kind of that was weird.

And, you know, everyone had traveled down from London. It's a good 200 miles. You know, we were going to go ahead with a reception. And I got back from the, I had two best men. There's one of them said, now I know why you've had two best men. one for the hospital, one for the reception. And I got back and my dear late father-in-law came up to me and said, Tim, you know, we decided to cancel the speeches.

I went like, fuck, I spent ages on this speech. And there's just no way. We're doing the speeches. My father would be mortified at what's happened, but he would be horrified if we didn't go ahead with all of this. Because we're never going to do it again. Right. And so I made my speech.

Our friend James made the speech as an evangelical vicar talking about how we'd been living in sin for years. And it kind of was what it was. The next year's anniversary was mixed. But in the end, it's part of my life. It's what happened. It's funny, though, because I, or peculiar though, because it is something, it was stuff of legend at the time.

Yeah. That, you know, and there was this large extended group of people, was you and I were both part of both in Manchester in London of people who were, you were, didn't you do, what was the name of that comedy show you did with all of those, Stephen Fry and Emmettos? Alfrisco, right? And it was all that group of fabulouses

and there was the London mob. And I was with Helen at the time and also, I was, have you heard of cocaine? Oh, the Eric Clapton track. No, no, no. the the uh it's a vitamin to help you drink oh yes i hope yeah i was i was doing that at the time as well that's uh but and there was a lot of that going on at the time it was such a mad mad time and i did how were you in that you i mean because i remember some nights out being out very late with you

singing and shouting in the streets of manchester and mostly manchester mostly manchester mostly Manchester because in London your kids were born you were behaved a lot better when you were down here yeah but it was it was really because it was it was dealing with other people's reactions that was strange because I was we obviously had to cancel a honeymoon right and and then I was shooting a detective series in four weeks were you doing Sherlock Holmes no it was called L Sid with Fred Molina and John Byrd and yeah and um so I had to go in to to work on the Monday, the Tuesday. And it was like people coming up and bursting into tears.

And it was like a real lot to deal with. And then I hadn't seen Rachel. Rachel had stayed with her dad. And he was an academic and he'd gone off to do a talk. And she went with him and I was on my own. And then my sister phoned me up and said, you've got to go and open the house up for mum on Thursday. And in the middle of all of this, I thought, I haven't seen Rachel.

I've just got married, I haven't seen Rachel. So I said to Rachel, you've got to come to London. I've got to see you on Thursday. Come up on Thursday. And a friend of mine. At 1237. At 1242. So Rachel came up.

And a friend of mine, Derek Grange, the legendary producer, but organized for us to say in this beautiful hotel, it explains them what had happened. And we had a suite at this hotel, to Halcyon and Holland Park and Rachel arrived and Rachel has a poncho for dressing in black she was when she was

a magnificent woman Rachel your wife and so she arrived at work and everyone's making a fuss of her and we get in the taxi to go to this hotel and I realize she's not talking to me Michael why

why are you talking to me and we're in a black cap you know and I go are you not talking to me as my dad died at our wedding and she went, he spoiled everything. And I went, are you serious? We had this terrible row.

Did you really? This huge row in the back of the cap. Yelling at each other with a cab driver listening to the key. What is this? Easy. And we arrived at the Halcyon and the manager came out to greet us because, you know, Derek had briefed him. Yeah.

Came out and said, I've got your sweep ready. And Rachel's went out, fuck off. We'll pass him. And I just thought, oh no, marriage is over. Marriage is over. We haven't even started. Marriage is over. But it was just something she needed to express.

It must have been a very, because it's very complicated. One of the rules for that. There's nobody, there's not template for it. You don't expect it. It's no, like, no rules. But I think you have to bear him in mind. You have to bear in mind what he would have wanted. Right.

My mother never forgave. I never really got on with my mother. She never forgave me for that. Never forgive you for your father dying at the wedding. Yeah. I failed to see your culpability in it. Yeah, me too. Right.

There you go. But yeah, now, it is complicated. It's kind of, um... And then, you know, even years later, I wrote a piece for The Guardian. I remember, yeah. And it went viral. Yeah. And then a few weeks later, I was at a crime festival with the incomparable Ellie Griffiths,

very famous. crime writer here in the UK and another writer and he said oh god I read your piece you know oh thanks her and she went what piece is that and I said oh they die got a piece already a couple weeks ago but my father died oh my god that was you and it has that kind of resonance yeah it has that kind of it's an extremely dramatic almost kind of like in fiction you would doubt it do you know what I mean because like it's too it's too much you know you would say that that could Yeah, right on the nose. Yeah, yeah.

But it's up, I got up, you know, to make the speech, and there was still a kind of odd atmosphere, a little bit. And I just started by saying, my father always had the most remarkable sense of timing. And everyone just started clapping and cheering. And that was it. It's a very, it's a very odd. Even, I have a lot, how long you and Rachel have been married?

It's like 40 years now or something. 36. 36? Yeah. So it's a long time ago. Yeah. And it still has that very odd. I guess every anniversary must be a weird kind of burst week.

No, the first few, but not anymore. Really? No, it's interesting. Not anymore. I mean, the people I'm really cross with are Mospros. You know, the Mospros. Yeah, because he hired a suit from Mospros. Oh, right.

And when he went into emergency theater, they cut it with scissors. Yeah. And they charged me full time. Shut up. Yeah. Shame on Muspros. Moss Bros, of course, are the wedding hire people in Britain. And I explained the situation to charge me full whack.

They really did. Never been back to Moss Bros. Are they still going, Mosbrose? Are they still in business? Yeah, yeah. Well, no wonder, actually. You can die in one of their sins and still not get away with paying for it. Good Lord.

That's, I feel like, because I've known about this story for 36 years at least, I never knew that. And now I find that the most shocking part of it. I was like, no, they didn't charge you for the suit. That's crazy. Did you give them back some of the suit? Do you give the halfback and stuff like that? Or did they charge them? They just charge them all.

That's, that's unconscionable. That's just terrible. That's a terrible thing. Is that why you wrote the tailor? And should it, should you, do you kill off people in stories that you're resentful against? Like, do you, you should? Yeah, the teacher. The teacher.

Oh, the teacher. So I went to a prep school when I was nine. Now explain to Americans what a prep school is. The school is the school before high school. Right. So it's a... Five to 13 for boys. Right. So it was an elementary school, I guess, in America.

I didn't go too much school. I was sent to this... It felt like an internment camp in Deepest Somerset where there was an alcoholic headmaster. He had six Alsatian days. Six Alsatian dogs all named after Wagner operas, which I think should have been... That's slightly Nazi, isn't it? And he was a sadist.

I mean, there was a sexual kind of abuse, but he was a sadist. He'd beat the crap out of us day and day. Yeah, I had a few teachers like that, too. So I've killed the fucker. Yeah, good, good. As Stephen Fry said to me, gosh, that is revenge served very, very cold. Yeah. Yeah.

Stevens was an early fan of George Cross as well, wasn't it? Bless him. Yeah, he's good news, Stephen. Yeah, he's a lifelong North Londoner like you is a well, isn't he and he and late Douglas Adams was up that end as well. Did you know Douglas? No, I met him. That's him oddly in a playground with our children shortly before he died, yeah. Yeah, and then Ibrie. He was the talent. Yeah, a little bit. Complex. Yeah, yeah. I mean, most talented people are a little complex. And I find that

complexity of people right now is in a time when we live in this self-imposed sort of observation we're all like the stazzy looking at each other and we you know we have these things so that we can keep an eye on what's going on like there is an orthodoxy of behavior

that is expected which I find quite odd stifling well it's interesting because you know I did this I used to do a late night show I don't have you know this I did this late night show in America and um that's why I wrote the books because I wanted to get on the show but then you I stopped doing that show 10 years ago you didn't start writing George until about nine years ago so don't give me that shit spoil the story yeah no no it just doesn't it doesn't wash that's all but I um I met a lot of very famous very talented people in that time. And people asked me about over the years, I mean, I did over 2,000

of these shows and people say to me, if they find out celebrity A, B, C, or D was on it, they will say to me, what are they like? I mean, what do you mean? Said, are they nice? I'm like, well, I don't know. I talked to them for 10 minutes. Most of them, 10 minutes, gone. People can, most people can behave themselves for 10 minutes. And so everyone is nice if you take it in a 10 minute talk show chunk but I find it fascinating that you would ask about a great artist are they nice um what what is it for me in my opinion is I personally I don't really care it goes along with all that never meet your heroes nonsense well I did do that with boy I would never invite boy on the show I don't know if he would ever come on the show but I thought don't want to

risk that don't want to risk that interesting yeah but I feel like now I wouldn't have that rule for myself. Yeah. I'd be like, yeah, it's fine. It doesn't matter now. But, yeah, I mean, it's interesting the kind of the way social behavior has changed so much.

It always does, though. I mean, it ebbs and flows all the time. I mean, behavior in ancient Persia would probably be seen as a little licentious now. Yeah. Well, our behavior in 1988 in Manchester? I don't even wish to discuss that. No, it's funny.

There was a lot of, you know, When I think about, you know, like singing and shouting and being up too late and having very firm opinions about fuck knows what at the time and then all falling over and stuff like that, I'm glad I did all of that without the eye of soaring upon me. You know what I mean? It's like, I think about that now with shocking. Yeah, how do you be an alcoholic now and not get into shocking trouble? I mean, I get into pretty shocking trouble anyway, but like to be. make a fool of yourself, which is 99% of what I did when I drank is like, just make a fool

of myself. Just do it fall over or develop rapid onset and continence. But it seems like a difficult time to be young. Yeah. I fear for the young. You have your kids in the early 20s, right? 30s. 30s. Oh, jeez. I have a grandchild now. Oh, shut up.

Another one coming along. Congratulations. Do you have slippers and a cardigan? They're too young for that. No, you. No, you have slippers in a cardigan. No, children could wear cardigans. It's perfectly legal.

I like cardigans. I like a good cardigan. Yeah, you never used to. No. No. That's what happens. But I won't. I draw the line at slippers. Do you have a cup, a mug that says World's Greatest Grandad?

Not yet. That's a good point. Yeah. You'll be getting one. Someone slipped up there. No, no, you'll be getting one. It's almost certain to be out. I do have, my daughter's both got married within a year.

I do have an Emma Bridgewater mug, which has been changed to say, Father of the Brides. Oh, nice. Nice. What's an Emma Bridgewater mug? Emma Bridgewater, she's a very famous ceramicist in this country. First of all, you say that, like, I would know any famous ceramicists. I didn't even know a ceramicist was a thing.

She's got a line of wonderful mugs and cups, plates and dishes. she is and did she sell them at like i bet your wife has got some and you just yes i mean that's megan though megan would i mean she lives for china yeah um there's the not necessarily the country i mean i don't know i'm she's perfectly fine with china but the china the china is in my latest book the country or their uh the country george doesn't go to china no he doesn't go to but something happens in China well that's a big country

I guess I mean things can happen there have you ever spent time that never been there have you yeah 10 months I tried to make a movie in Mandarin I don't speak Mandarin you don't speak My Little Pony either

and you did that I know that's true yeah I spent about 10 months How do you write dialogue for My Little Pony How do you in particular You profane foul mouth arse Well they do No it has to be said that they did bring in Julian Barrow, who's very an expert on.

But how little ponies talk? To redo all the dialogue and make, and re-ponify some of the Timson. Reponify your kind of, you're going to pay for this. The first time I've been very ponified, yeah. Yeah, you can't have the pony say, you're going to pay for this, motherfucker. Yeah, it's not going to have that. It's not going to work. You're right, okay.

So it's been lovely talking to you, Tim. I'm looking forward to reading The Taylor. Yeah. But I know what happens to the tailor I can tell you right now You get stitched up Oh, that's very good Now I haven't used that actually

I'm not going to say it was Because they always die Yeah The people that you And like if it's called That's why if it's called the tailor I know that the tailor's going to die Yeah

Pretty early on in the book usually Yeah usually I mean I gotta be honest with you Usually by page two Somebody's dead Yeah Do you have a rule about that? No

Just this the way it happens. It happens a little bit later in the bookseller. Oh, yeah, so it does. That's right, because you get to know them a bit. Yeah. Which is, you know, that's right. I remember in the bookseller because you follow the old fella first and you think, he's going to get killed.

Exactly. And it's horrible because he's nice and he's having a nice day. You think, oh, this guy's having a lovely day. Don't kill him. Yeah. But, yeah, no, the, yeah, the tailor. No, I'm trying to, yeah. No, the death happens quick.

It has to. It's a detective novel. And that comes out in the books, you know, with the dentists are coming out in October. And then a book a month is coming out next year in America. An American? So from January through till July when the tailor will come out. What happens to when you, the inevitable screen portrayal of George Cross, which will happen at some point, I am sure.

Who would you like to see play? I don't do that because for two reasons. One is I don't want to give my readers an impression of who he is. Right. Two, if I say that, and then I don't get him, I'll be disappointed. Right. And there are different ways of approaching it. But, you know, the great thing is I'm just enjoying it so much.

And the TV and film world seems so insanely. It's a little volatile. I don't know if you noticed. You know, I've got lots of director friends that are really jealous of the fact that I found a second career at my age, you know, when they're all struggling to get work in their 60s and, and, and, um, so, you know, a lot of crime writers are thrilled when their rights get bought, but I've turned down several offers because I need to know where it's going or who's going to do it. There's no point in selling your rights. And then the timing

doesn't feel right for me, George at the moment. It will be maybe at some point. Yeah, it'll happen. I mean, it's an absolute inevitability. I don't know about that. No, I do. I do. And I knew, by the way, just to remind you, before you had published the first one, I told you then, this will happen. This will happen. It would be nice. Obviously, it would be lovely to get George out there in the world. I mean, I'm really thrilled that George is going to America. It'll be really interesting to see how America. I mean, when I self-published, 29% of my market was in America. Right. But it'll be really interesting to see. And I get lots of emails. from America's how how he's perceived I think there's a big appetite

for British clever British crime fiction in the United States I don't know if you've noticed it seems quite popular yeah and I think clever crime fiction is popular

anywhere though from anywhere to anywhere but I think because it has the cognitive challenge of trying to figure out and the story is will reach an inevitable conclusion

they used to to have this TV show in Scottish television that I was a kid called there's a very unique illegal verdict in Scotland. I don't know if it exists anywhere else in the world. Most places in the world, you're either guilty or not guilty. In Scotland

they have a verdict. I don't know if they still have it, but they used to have a verdict called not proven. Yeah. So it was you could have guilty, not guilty or not proven. And they used to have a TV show called verdict, not proven. Is that right? Yeah. I always used to feel either by myself.

a verdict not proven. No, they're not proven. But it's such an odd thing. I asked a cop about it once in Glasgow. And he said, he feels that the verdict not proven means we know you did it, we can't fucking prove it. And it's interesting. And I think there's a lot of that happens in crime. Yeah. Oh yeah, 100%. We drive me crazy. I had a friend who was a cop in Bakersfield, which is a pretty lively town to the North Los Angeles and he gave it up he said I couldn't take it anymore because

when you're a cop everybody's fucking lying to you all day long I said that's what it's like being a talk show everybody's fucking lying to all that but you know explains the appetite for cold cases yeah yeah you know the fact that crimes and you know Richard Price wrote a wonderful book I think it's called the whites which are

which are the ones that stay with you the cases stay with you that you didn't yeah or haunt you yeah James Elroy wrote a lot about that. Yeah. And, of course, his mother was murdered. And they never caught the killer. And that's a kind of, so in a sense,

crime fiction sometimes provides the kind of salve for that. Yeah. The case is, you know, it is proven. Yeah. But it is, I mean, I quite like the series of books where, like with Michael Connoe where there might be a killer who goes through several books.

Yeah. Yeah, again, Michael Connolly put me in one of his books, I think. Yeah. So, just, you know, if you're looking for some ideas. I don't know if that makes me feel slightly differently about him now. No, no, you should feel, yeah, you should feel different. You should think Michael's a man of great, you know, not only is he a great writer, but he's a good friend, you know. Craig's.

He's actually, you know, we know each other in passing. I guess if he knew me well enough, he'd be like, I'm not putting that twine at me. All right. well look fuck off and say hi to Rachel and good luck with the Booth of America

they're going to do very well I'm sure they will all right all right we're done you're done Thank you.