Judge John Hodgman - A Jewelry of Your Peers in Ann Arbor

Episode Date: April 9, 2025

Kalee and Nik both want their dad's cool ring in the shape of a lion's head. The problem? Their dad is still alive! Who's right? Who's wrong? Plus, a woman who believes she is owed a cruise from her friend and a man who would like his good buddy to stop telling their coworkers he used to sleep without sheets on the bed! Recorded LIVE at the Ann Arbor District Library.We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman!Thanks to reddit user u/taako-salad for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Join at $5 a month at maximumfun.org/join!

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bill F. Jesse Thorne. With me is Judge John Hodgman. This week's episode was recorded live in Ann Arbor, Michigan. This is the first and only time we have ever recorded Judge John Hodgman at a library, in a library. I hope it's not the last because talk about the epicenter of the Judge John Hodgman audience,

librarians and library patrons. They definitely showed up for us in Ann Arbor at that wonderful library that was so kind to host us. We put on a great show right in front of the graphic novel section and I think you're going to hear what a great time it was. Judge Hodgman, we had a really important correction on the Maximum Fund subreddit recently.

That's R slash Maximum Fund. Yeah. Not all of our listeners are librarians. Several mentioned they are library support workers. Okay, got it. Yeah, so they work in libraries, but they are not librarians. Whatever the case, we had a wonderful time

in the jewel in the crown of Michigan, Ann Arbor, and can't wait to go back. But until then, you get to go back in time with us and listen to this incredible live show that we performed right there at the Ann Arbor Downtown District Library. People of Ann Arbor, you asked us for live justice and we came to deliver it. The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session.

Let's start our first case. Please welcome to the stage, Peter and Stephen. Peter says he is Stephen's mentor and life coach. He hired Stephen 13 years ago in Virginia. Now they both live in the same Midwestern city. Peter says Stephen followed him here. Peter says that's wrong. He makes his own decisions because he is a real grown-up boy. Who's right, who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Welcome Peter and Stephen. Thank you for being here. Who seeks justice in my

fake court? I do. You are Peter? Yes I am. Peter, let's get this out of the way. You say that Stephen followed you from where where you met which was where? Charlottesville Virginia Charlottesville, Virginia followed you here to the Midwest but not here to Ann Arbor, correct? Not here to Ann Arbor and no where where do you both live? We both live in Columbus, Ohio Stephen you could have stayed home and avoided all this And yet you followed me Peter here I drove him here. Well, fair enough.

But he's the one who's seeking justice. You agreed to be here to have this fight. What is your beef with your old boss? Well, my beef is that he frequently asks me to acknowledge his role in my life as a life coach and mentor. Sure. Part of him asking me to do that and part of him kind of framing our relationship in that way is that he's constantly telling people that I followed him to Columbus. Sure. And there's various factors that, you know, we can get into.

And yeah, I just kind of want to reframe our relationship in less of a top-down and more of like an equitable even across. Yeah. He considers himself to be a father figure and you want to destroy your father. Essentially, yeah. And finally grow as a human being. I understand. Peter, is the only life advice you've given to Stephen is to get him to follow you to Ohio of all places?

No, I've actually... Why was that? Why did you advise that? Anyway, sorry. Sorry, I'm just pandering. Peter, what other kind- Why was that? Why did you advise that? Anyway, sorry. Sorry, I'm just pandering. Peter, what other kind of life advice would you give him to Stephen? Well, we met when I hired him when he was 23 years old.

I always laugh. He was a teacher at the time. He was- You were a principal- I was a principal at the time. At a school- Elementary school. Elementary school.

Yeah. And you hired- Stephen. Stephen to be a- Fifth grade teacher. Fifth grade teacher. That's great. And it was him and the reigning Georgia teacher of the year. And I just, there's something about him, you know? He got the kids, he's a good guy.

Wait, you're saying that the other candidate for the position was the reigning Georgia teacher of the year. And how long ago- Well, how did you know they were still reigning? Would they come with a scepter? Yeah. They gotta wear a sash. Gotta wear a sash Yeah. They've got to wear a sash.

This person talked about it. You've got to wear a sash around. You've got to wear a sash. Got it. They talked about it quite a lot. Yeah. And you're still shitting on them. Yeah.

Yeah. Good. John, you know what you get when you're teacher of the year? No. What? Free pizza party. Free pizza party. Class outside?

Yeah. Okay. So you hired him to be a fifth grade teacher. We bought him his first, myself and a co-worker bought him this first set of grown-up sheets. That just means actual sheets for his bed. Was he in fifth grade? Prior to that he was using a sleeping bag and a t-shirt as a pillowcase. Is this true?

Yeah, you gotta understand I was living that kind of rock star lifestyle of an elementary teacher at the time. Had you been a teacher already? For one year. And did you? He wasn't my first pair of bed sheets, it was the first pair at a new place.

Were you sleeping in the sleeping bag with the t-shirt? Wait hold on John your first pair at a new place? Did you like velveteen rabbit everything from the old place? I don't remember the circumstances that led me to not having bed sheets. Okay what were on the sheets that he got? Transformers? What? Well yeah So actually we were going to purchase him ones like that, but we decided he's a big boy now and we got him to some plain sheets that looked adultish. We thought that was the best way to actually be nice. When you were sleeping in your sleeping bag, was it under your desk in your classroom? It was in the basement I was living in at the time.

Okay, fair enough. And was that the... you bought him some new sheets or you convinced him to buy some new sheets What about his head? We actually purchased the seats. We convinced him to shave his head entirely And before that there was some hair and it took some years off his life. He looked he's the strapping man He is today, but you know, may I ask how old you are? I'm 36. Well, you you look terrific. Thank you. I don't know what I Mean I noticed you notice you still are completely shaven on your head.

Correct, and I would like to add that when he says he convinced me and he's framing it like a father, what he means is he berated me constantly until I decided shaving it was the move. He was your principal, commenting on your personal and physical appearance. Did it ever occur to you that you could sue him into oblivion?

Not until right now. It was on the rubric, so yeah. Oh, okay. Stephen, did Peter give you good advice? Oh, absolutely. Like, was? I can't argue that. The shaving the head was great, for sure.

Right. Sheets are pretty good too, right? Yeah, absolutely. Let me ask you this question. I mean, do you still use sheets? I do. Seems like case closed case closed we're talking about percale sateen what flannel wash flannel Oxford Oxford what kind of

sheets do you have do you know I don't know oh really why because Peter's still buying them for you Peter why did you move to Columbus, Ohio? I actually grew up outside of Cleveland, so when our kids became school-aged, it was time to come back closer to family. We were an hour from the in-laws, an hour from my family. Did you come to the Thurber Prize event where I lost? No, but I remember when you were here for that, and we didn't make it. But I'm glad. I was trying to skip to two. Stephen, did you follow him to Columbus? Yes or no?

In the sense that yes, he moved to Columbus and then less than a year later I moved there, yes. How did it come to pass? Because I have a family that lives there, my sister-in-law lives in Columbus. Weird coincidence. Okay. But you wanted to change, you're telling me you have nothing to do with the fact that Peter was already there. It was a lovely circumstance Surrounding my move to Columbus, but it wasn't the reason why Right. Okay, and do you work together now? We do we still work together. I Was one of his references In the school presumably. Yes. Well, thank you for being teachers, by the way. That's terrific.

And... Library crowd, they're going to clap for teachers. And you are... And you know what? Thanks to firefighters, too, for keeping our houses from burning down. And your friends... And moms. But that's it.

No one else gets thanked. Doing the good work is your own reward. Your friends? Absolutely. This is an ongoing dispute. Stephen, how does it feel when Peter says that you followed him to Columbus? Infantilizing? This is an ongoing dispute. Stephen, how does it feel when Peter says that you followed him to Columbus? Infantilizing? Yes, and it's objectively not true. And he's a storyteller.

It's a story I hear a lot. Thank you to the storytellers. Thank you to the storytellers. Where would we be without them? They help us make sense of things. Okay, maybe you're having some dental pain? We are in Michigan, the crown, so to speak. The jewel in the crown of dental hygiene.

John, at the end of the day, we're all just storytellers, especially ad guys that want to tell you about how they're storytellers. So you, how does it feel when Peter says that you followed him here? How does it make you feel? I feel like it's a little reductive to how I view our friendship. Does he tell funny stories about you that make you feel humiliated and infantilized by any chance? At any chance that he gets, and I feel like he's actually won by having this audience now tonight.

What kind of stories do you tell about little bitty Steven, Peter? Um, I mean, I love the one about how when he met his wife he came to me for his advice as you know a life coach or mentor might be serving that role and he said you know he was really into her but they were roommates and he was concerned that there were nine months left on the lease. And so what if it didn't work out? What if she didn't? So I mean- That's a tricky maneuver.

But now they have two kids. When you are falling in love with a roommate and you only have one pair of sheets that you just bought. So what advice did you give him? I told him to go for it. You know, if he really was into her, let's go for it. And it's turned out amazing. He has an awesome wife and an awesome kids.

So you're married now. You have two kids. I am, yeah. But you no longer live together. Weird. Still cohabitating then? We are. Good job.

So Stephen, that's a lovely story to tell. How does this affect you? It's maybe the frequency of which the stories are told coupled with the who's he's telling them to and it often requires me professionally to kind of like maybe backtrack and say like okay yeah that's a funny story haha I actually moved here for adult reasons. The story that he told about you meeting your wife is not a funny story. Oh no. The story that he told about you meeting your wife is not a funny story. Oh, no. The story that he told about you following him to Columbus is honestly not a great story.

Not very funny. Is there any other story that he tells about you? Or is this about... Oh, no. There's a lot more. Well, give me an example that would make him look bad. One time we were running this race where you have to do obstacles.

It was, like, maybe, I don't know, a five-mile race. Oh, you're runners? Well, is that not obvious? I know that's... It looks like one of the fastest fifth-grade teachers in the land that he's here today. And I cramped up pretty bad at the end and he had to carry me across the finish line so that's a story he tells. I'd like to add that he had a short

smell function so he was also just in his underwear at this point. I just put it together that you said a short smell function. I thought you said short smell function. I thought I was having a stroke. Was there something cute on his undie pants? They match the sheets. So it was... Is it infantilizing to you when he tells you these stories to others?

I love the jokes. I love the self-deprecating humor. I like to tell them. But sometimes in the professional setting, it is a little. Do you feel it undermines you professionally? Occasionally. Has he ever told one of these stories in front of the 10-year-olds?

Probably. Do you have difficulty acknowledging Peter that Steven is a grown-up man now? No, not at all. He's, I mean, we actually talked about this before. He's an awesome guy. Love him as a friend. We both love the banter we get to give each other. And again, as a life coach and mentor, I just got to teach him that. I've got to help, you know, guide that for him. Do you feel you need to keep him in his place by telling these stories? I mean, that might be my only hope he's really like I said, he's a great dude. So Have you asked him to stop telling the stories before Steven before now?

Not really. I think I I have asked that I not like acknowledge him publicly as my mentor You don't want to acknowledge him as your mentor. I mean not not in most settings. Yeah, I thought tonight was the right setting but Have you not asked in the past because you're afraid daddy will be mad with you. I Mean that's that's very likely that could be some of my deep-seated Reasons now that you've heard now that you've heard that Steven is uncomfortable with these stories Peter. Why do you keep telling them? Um, I do this is gonna sound like I'm not a very nice person but it is part of our banter we both like to tell silly stories about each other there's plenty he has I'm sure on me whether they're appropriate for well if

you both like to tell them wouldn't you have heard one before? I think I've heard some but I mean no no all're you're his boss now currently? No, no, you're not his direct supervisor anymore. Not at all. OK. Stephen, you like me to order that Peter stop saying you followed him to Columbus and stop telling these stories in general, is that right? Not in general, maybe just be a little bit more prudent about the setting. And he wants me to acknowledge that I'm his life coach. I would just like him to acknowledge that it's really awesome

that our life circumstances brought us back to the same place and we have this great friendship. I agree. That is my order to you as well. Say it. He didn't follow me to Columbus. He didn't follow me to Columbus. No one should follow me to Columbus. Nobody should follow me to Columbus. Who on their right mind would follow anyone to Columbus?

This is the sound of a gap. Thank you, Peter and Stephen. Drumming Please welcome to the stage Eva and Glenn. Eva and Glenn to the stage, please. What's going on with Eva and Glenn, Jesse? Eva and Glenn. Eva and Glenn to the stage please. What's going on with Eva and Glenn, Jesse? Eva and Glenn are longtime friends. You used to work together at a law firm.

Eva says she's now a recovering attorney. She also says that Glenn owes her a cruise, but Glenn says Eva's gone overboard. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. I wrote that joke. He wrote that, John wrote that in. He was just going overboard. Yeah.

Just a little bit overboard in her demanding of a cruise. It says went overboard, and then right next to it in italics it says, no alts. No. Yeah. Don't improvise. Yeah. Read as written. Hello.

Eva, do you seek justice in my fake court? Yes or no? Yes. And you used to work with Glenn. That's true. But your relationship used to be different or there was a personal relationship as well. Can you explain?

Yes, originally we were colleagues who worked together in the same firm. And as we worked together and got to know each other better, we started to become friends. And then we ended up hanging out outside of the office, and we've been good friends for 19 years now. And you got to know his family to a certain degree? Absolutely.

And just as a friend? Yes. Right. But did Glenn ever represent that your relationship was different to his own? Yeah, absolutely did. Multiple times. How would that misrepresentation take shape?

Well, when we were colleagues, Glenn had not yet come out to me, and in fact was not out at all. And so he used me as a beard with his family without my knowledge or consent. Glenn, did you tell your family that Eva was your girlfriend? I did say a woman named Eva was my girlfriend, yes. You're clearly still a practicing attorney. It might not have necessarily been this Eva, but Eva, and Eva, I suppose I should say,

and Eva. Right, and Eva was. And how long did your family believe that you had a girlfriend named Aniva? Probably a good maybe two years. Very quick two years, maybe. Maybe year and a half. OK, that's two cruises, Your Honor. Well, I'll tell you about the cruises, then.

You go on an annual cruise with your family. Is that correct, Glenn? Well, at the time, my stepmom's mother paid for the entire family and our legitimate significant others. So. Oh. You mean your non-fictional significant others?

Right. Right. To take a cruise. And well, I went solo because I didn't honestly have a legitimate. Did your family invite you to invite Aunt Eva? They did. They did. Aunt Eva. But I didn't have a true Eva, so there was no... I am the only Eva. Right. So let me ask you this, counselor. Did your family believe that this Eva was the Eva? Possibly.

Maybe, I think that may have been the case. I can't really recall if she met them after coming out prior. It could have been post. Yeah, your mother loves me. Right. I think it probably was post coming out, but... That's irrelevant. Right. Was there a reason that you didn't want to bring

this Eva on the cruise? You know, those stateroom cabins are really small. Sure. And stuffy, especially if in the inside room, maybe, you know, which back then I may have. But Eva could have brought her own sleeping bag and introduced her for a pillow. I just don't think that sleeping in a little cabin like that for a week would be on either

of our bucket lists. It would have been nice to have the choice. Right. Yeah, but I mean, Eva, you have to acknowledge that Glenn, at this time, your friend, was struggling with acknowledging his own truth. Sure, whatever. To himself. Glenn, would it be reasonable to say that you were willing to lead your family on to a certain

extent to say, yes, I have a girlfriend named Eva, and it might be that one over there, but to actually bring her on to the cruise would be a level of deception that made you feel uncomfortable? Exactly. That would have been beyond. Okay. But then you did acknowledge your own truth to yourself and to your family and congratulations for that. Oh thanks. And do you

have a significant other now? Yes, my Eva turned out to be a six foot three guy named Mike. Is Mike here? He is right there. Mike, would you please stand up and be acknowledged? Let the record reflect that Mike waved adorably. Let the record reflect that Mike is a snack. So I ask you this, counselor, has Mike ever been on a cruise? He has been on several cruises. Ah-ha! Ja Cruz! It had to be done, Jesse. It had to be done. No-ha! Ja-cruise! Ha-ha-ha-ha! It had to be done, Jesse.

It had to be done. No alts, no alts. Even though we've made that joke before. No alts. Your honor? Oh, yes, hi. If I could contribute, I did speak with Mike briefly prior to us coming up here

to ask just how many cruises he has been on with Glenn. Oh, interesting. And he estimated 15. Oh! Oh! Oh! Glenn. Oh, interesting. And he estimated 15. Now are these all family cruises or maybe some? No, no, no. The vast majority are non-family cruises. My stepmom's got me into cruises and got Mike into cruises and we just like them. So we take a lot. So yeah, we take quite a few and they come where do you go? Do you have a preferred line?

Oh yeah, we like Norwegian Cruise Line. We're going to Greece next year. Sounds great. Yeah, these are certainly my... Eva, have you ever been to Greece? No, I'd love to go. Glenn, where else have you gone? Oh well, we Barcelona but you know No, I don't even know to take do the TH legitimately no, I'm but they don't yeah. Yeah. Well Glenn, you know So Glenn why don't you take Eva on a cruise and she did you she did you a solid for a period of time, right? She did but I don't know if that can really be quantified. I mean, you know, being able to say that she was associated with me in that manner. I mean, wouldn't she like that?

I'm not sure if that, what's the harm? How are the damages? There's harm. OK, make your case, Eva. You're a recovering attorney. I've never practiced law in my life. Why don't you show me how it's done? If I can remember back that far. Sure. Well there was the harm that I was single at the time and interested in dating not this guy but a guy, perhaps my Eva. You're saying that you might have gone on a cruise with

Glenn and his family as Glenn's fake paramour. No. And then you would have found a paramour of your own on the cruise. No. Come on Glenn, that would have been fun. That would have been a crowded little stateroom. That would have been a French farce or a rom-com. Yeah. Let's do it. You needed a sign for the door, I guess. Yeah, exactly. No, I did not know what I was missing at the time because, again, I did not consent or was not made aware of being his beard. Oh, you didn't know that you were being represented.

No. How did you feel when you found out and how did you find out? I felt used. Well, let me reverse those questions. How did you find out? He probably told me I volunteered that information. Oh, maybe I just said a person with your same name was Happened to me my fake significant other when I would go home for Christmas or Thanksgiving and you get those questions incessantly

Were you dating? Who are you doing? And finally, someone named Eva. Eva, did you ever have to IRL impersonate the girlfriend? Did you ever have to show up to something as the girlfriend? I did not, because I was unaware I had been cast in that role. Would you have been willing to go on the cruise if you had to act as Glenn's girlfriend? Sure.

Do you want to go on a cruise that badly? I've never been, Your Honor, and my husband's not interested. I've been on some cruises. Yeah? They're fine. I mean, to be fair, there's a ton of soft serve. There's so much soft serve. It's terrific.

That's pretty compelling. If you like being on an incredibly gaudy, fallen-down hotel floating through an infinite abyss that reminds you of death, There's so much sense, sir. It's terrific. That's pretty compelling. If you like being on an incredibly gaudy, fallen-down hotel, floating through an infinite abyss that reminds you of death, it's for you. And by the way, I do. I love it. I think I would, but my husband looks at it the same way you do, so this is my only chance. Where would you go on your cruise if I were to order Glenn to take you on a cruise? Well, Greece sounds good.

Greece sounds good. Actually, it's Greith. Or he could take me on one of the Broadway cruises. What are the Broadway cruises? What are they? They're cruises that have some people who are stars on Broadway on the ship as entertainment, and they interact with people and do some classes, things like that. Are you still friends, Glenn, Eva? We're good friends.

Good friends? I mean, at the moment. Yeah. What would be your objection to taking your friend on a cruise? I presume Mike would come, too, right? You like Mike? Everyone likes Mike, right? Yeah.

Yeah, that guy's a snack. Yeah. Everyone loves Mike. What would be your objection to taking Eva on a cruise with You like Mike? Everyone likes Mike, right? Yeah, that guy's a snake. Everyone loves Mike. What would be your objection to taking Eva on the cruise with you and Mike? Oh, she could more than welcome the com, you know, just have that Amex card ready and you know, we're all, we're on our way. We are on our way. Glenn, hold hard cash. You mentioned that you've been on perhaps 15 cruises. Yeah, quite a few. You cruise on Norwegian cruise lines? Yeah, there are some other ones too.

I presume that you belong to their frequent sailor club or whatever. We do, yeah. A platinum mariner or whatever it is. We took a RuPaul Drag Race cruise. That was really fun. I would love that. Stop bragging about it. What I'm saying is that surely with the amount of status that you've earned as a frequent cruiser, surely you could probably get Eva a pretty good deal on a cruise, the three of you together, even if it's a short one.

Wouldn't you agree? No. Well, luckily for Eva, I agree with myself. Cash in your chips and get Eva a cruise. Go take her on a cruise and say thank you. Thank you to Eva. Thank you for being here. Have fun. Bon voyage. Thank you, Eva and Glenn. Judge John Hodgman, I know that we disappointed some Chicagoans because there was not a Chicago date on our last tour. It just didn't fit into the schedule. If we couldn't get it in, the right venue wasn't available.

It just happens sometimes, but- We love Chicago. It's my kind of town. But I have good news for all you Chicagoans and those in the Chicago area. Very, very shortly on April 11th, I am bringing my other comedy podcast, Jordan and Jesse Goh to Chicago in the wonderful club Sleeping Village.

Jordan and I will be doing all kinds of nonsense. John, I just wrote a quiz that is called Spirit Halloween Superstore Automaton, Performer from the Gathering of the Juggalos or some SH We Made Up, where you have to figure out which is a music act from the Gathering of the Juggalos, which is a thing you can buy at Spirit Halloween Superstore and which is just some nonsense I wrote. We will also be joined by two monumental podcasting celebrities.

One of them is Sam Riegel from the huge, huge podcast Critical Role and from its very successful Amazon television show. He also, John, a lot of people ask me, well, that's great. He's a very successful podcaster on Critical Role. But did he ever play the character Phoenix Wright, Ace Attorney in a legal simulator anime video game? The answer is yes, he did.

Yes. And then Peter Seal is there too. Yeah. Peter Sagal from wait, wait, don't tell me is also going to be there. And of course, from runners world magazine, you know him best as a columnist from runners world, but he's also the host of NPR's wait, wait, don't tell me. Two princes of the land of Lincoln joining you and your best friend, Jordan Morris for a night of comedy at Sleeping Village on April 11th.

Jesse, I'm mad because I love Chicago and I love you guys and I wish I could be there, but I'm gonna be upstate New York helping our daughter adopt a cat. So sorry. John, I'll eat a beef for you and I'll see everybody April 11th. The tickets are on sale now.

You can find all of the information, maximumfun.org slash events, and I will see you April 11th. As for me, I've got nothing going on right now, but I will remind you, please go check out our friend Jean Grey's new book. It's incredible new book called, "'In My Remaining Years."

It's funny, it's wise, it's spicy, it's hysterical. It's the book you have to go and get right away. Please, "'In My Rem my remaining years by Jean Grey, go and get it wherever books are sold or loaned. Let's get back to the show. An Arbor, Michigan, are you ready for mega justice? Let's bring out our litigants. Please welcome to the stage, Callie and Nick.

Tonight's case, a jewelry of your peers. Callie brings the case against her brother Nick. They both lay claim to a family heirloom, their father's very cool ring in the shape of a lion's head. The only problem is their dad is still alive. Cali says she wants the ring when their father goes, but Nick says the ring should be buried with dad. Who's right, who's wrong? Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference. He thought of all the things that he kept in his own pockets. Fish bones, goblin's teeth, wet shells, a bit of bat wing, a sharp stone to sharpen his fangs on, and other nasty things. He kept, he tried to think what other people kept in their pockets, and finally said, a pie hole or nothing. Wrong, said Judge John Hodgman. All guesses are wrong.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Callie and Nick, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God or whatever? Yes. Do you swear to abide by judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he never found his courage yes judge Hodgman you may proceed. Kelly you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your

favors can either of you name the piece of culture that I mostly quoted then paraphrased at the end as I entered this courtroom but before you guess may I ask you a question are you both chewing gum? Yes. May I ask you to say yes into the microphone? Yes. Yes. Very good.

Thank you. Thank you very much, Bailiff Jesse Thorne. As the Spanish teacher at my high school used to say, Chicla en la bar! Welcome to the recording of a podcast. Callie, why don't you guess first? It sounds like something from The Hobbit. I have nothing more specific than that. I see, something from The Hobbit.

I'll write that down in the guest book. B-I-T. All right. Now, Nick, what's your guess? My guess is that it is The Hobbit when there is a riddle competition between Smeagol and, I cannot remember the other Hobbit name. I should have known you both would know this one.

I mean, it's not very obscure. And of course, it was written by JRR Tolkien, a famous Ann Arborian, technically born in Ipsilanti. But most of his living and writing right here in Ann Arbor, Michigan, staying frequently at the campus in, now the graduate. Local humor. Can either of you name the name of the chapter that it comes from?

I cannot. I'm going to say 13. All guesses are wrong. Riddles in the Dark was the name of the chapter, and that is of course when Gollum Smeagol, as you rightly pointed out, Nick, challenged Bilbo Baggins to a game of riddles because he coveted the ring that Bilbo Baggins had found and had put in his pocket, much like one of you,

or both of you, covet the ring that belongs to your dad. Callie, you seek justice in this court? I certainly do. Tell me about this ring. This ring was given to my father by his father. It's a gold lion head, and both eyes are pearls, and the mouth is a ruby. That sounds hot as hell.

That sounds like it would be my precious, too. We have a photo of it. Do we not, Jennifer Marmer? Yeah. And did he get it at Schifrin-Willans, the famous jeweler in Detroit? Yeah, wow. That's a really cool ring for sure. And you say in the mouth there's a ruby. Oh, I see it there. Like his little tongue, like when cats forget to put their tongues back in their mouths.

My favorite thing, those dumb cats. Thank you very much. We can take that off. Now, Nick, it is a very, very cool ring. How long have you two been fighting over it? Your brother and sister, correct? As long as I can remember. Pretty much. It's always just been like, who's going to get it one day, so to speak. Right.

And what does your dad have to say about it? He has chosen to remain silent and laugh in our faces whenever we try to talk about it. Why do you think he... And by extension, laugh in the face of death. Isn't it possible that your dad might write a will someday and decide for both of you? It is written. His will is written, and the ring is not mentioned in the will at this point. So it's just been revealed that Cali has read your father's will.

I have no idea. You haven't, Nick? I have not. And you think you deserve a ring? You're not doing the due diligence? You're not doing the pre-grave dancing that your sister's doing? You all, you work together? You're not just brother and sister? Yes.

You work in the family business? What's the family business? Auto repair. Auto repair, very cool. Here in Michigan? Interesting. Wouldn't you rather work in a state that has more of a connection to automobiles? It's really really tough. Your dad has not expressed an opinion one way or the other. You don't think he has an opinion or you think he's just keeping it to himself? Or does his opinion not matter? I don't think he really has an opinion. I mean I

don't think he would want to choose. I mean I don't think he would want to choose between one of his children. Are there any other siblings involved? No. Okay. Callie, why do you deserve this ring and your brother doesn't? Who's older by the way? I'm older. Okay well there you go. So said family business is going to be inherited slash bought in by my brother okay because that's his line of work okay gotcha so you work there too but it's not also work there it's just a very it's what are your respective roles in the business if I'm an office assistant I fill in the holes he's actually doing

like bodywork and right he's you know so that is lined up for him he's, you know, so that is lined up for him. He's spilling it in the holes. Yes, exactly. So that is lined up for him. Now granted, he does have to purchase that over time. Right, it's not the business won't just go to him, he's gonna have to buy out. Yes, so I'm not in line for that, which I don't want. That's not a part of this equation.

Terrific, you're not getting it. Exactly, but what I do want is this ring. And why? Because I have, I'm not a very sentimental person. Nostalgia is the thief of joy, as is established law. So I say it's a toxic impulse, but that's a better way of saying it. You're right.

Yeah. You're right. So I have this picture in my head of my dad every Sunday morning before we would go to church as kids. We would all get together and get ready in their bathroom when we were really little kids. And he would open his arm wire and he would have his suit jacket or his tweed coat or whatever on and he would open the arm wire and he would take the ring out of the box

and he would put it on his finger and he would wear it every Sunday. And anytime there's a special event or like a wedding or you know something special going on he always wears it. So that is why I would like it as something sentimental for myself. Because Nick has never observed this ritual that your dad has? I mean Nick doesn't even know what an arm war is. Not because he hasn't observed it but because he is getting the legacy of my father's business. And I think I could have a small piece of sentimental, like a memory for myself.

Like a token, a memory. Yeah. And is the ring important to your, I mean, he obviously, you know, wears it to important occasions. What does it mean to your dad, the ring? He hasn't expressed anything specific. Like his dad gave it to him while he was in high school.

So I'm sure it's significant in the sense that his father gave it to him. But you don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure. You don't know what your dad wants to do with the ring. You don't know what it means to him. Has your dad ever spoken to either of you? Is he here?

Only through the media of body work. His father had a similar ring and I think he admired that his dad had one. So he bought it for him as like a class ring for him when he was in high school. So he wears it only for special occasions

like weddings, christenings, his own funeral. What do you think is the proper distribution of the ring, Nick? What do you want with it? I don't know. Like she has an image of him, of like she wants it for the sentimental value because she sees him with it.

I just always see it as like a part of him. So like to me, I'm like the captain. I always make a joke with him about it whenever we're disputing it as like a part of him. So like to me, I'm like the captain. I always make a joke with him about it whenever we're disputing it as a family. And I'm like the captain should go down with the ship, so to speak. So you're saying the ring should be buried with the father.

Yes. It should go down with the ship of his body. Yes. You don't. What else do you think should be buried with him? All his cats, a bunch of honey a Thousand play warriors What kind of cars do you work on all kinds

Anything yeah, okay like so like five thousand Plymouth Furies can be in his temple as well Model a 29 model A. Is that going to be his casket? Yeah. No, he has one. Does your dad love how much you're thinking about his own funeral? He has mentioned that. What is his age? He's 56. He's a young man!

It's never too early to plan. Wow. By the way, John, nice ring. No wonder he's not taking you seriously. He's probably going to outlive all of us. So you don't want the ring, Nick. You want the ring to go into the earth with your dad. I'm not opposed to like keeping it, but I was more suggesting that so that there would

be no like dispute between us. You actually suggested to our producer Jennifer Marmor a compromise of some kind? I did. What would that consist of? Like a casting of the ring. Make it duple, like, take the ring, have a cast taken, and make new ones.

Correct, so that we could both have a piece of the legacy, so to speak. You would each have a copy of the ring. Why is that unsatisfactory to you, Callie? It's just not the real thing. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. John, you, of all people, a graduate of Yale, know about the progression of the simulacra. Yeah, art in the age of mechanical reproduction. I understand the aura, the authentic. Thank you,

Walter Benjamin. 1929 what? And that's a car? Yeah. I understand that there was another family ring that you and Callie split somehow, Nick? Yes. What happened there? Well, she's actually wearing part of it right now. My grandmother had a diamond ring when she was married,

and she gave it to my mother. And my mother, she got married first, and she said that you guys can split this ring. And she got married first, so she took the... Tally got married. Yes. I got married first. So the ring had been passed down to your mom.

My mother. Yes. But she is still alive, right? Correct. OK. I just want to make sure that. She's younger than my dad. Okay. Wonderful for both of them. And then Cal you got married and your mom offered to give you the ring. Yeah she split it up so there was five diamonds and the gold so I got the large

diamond and then he got the four small diamonds and all the gold. And where are those now? In your teeth? You're hanging on. Are you married? I am. OK. And where are the diamonds?

I did not get the gold or the diamonds, because they did not fit the style of ring that I wanted to make for my wife. And so they evaporated? Correct. Into cash. make for my wife. And so they evaporated? Correct.

Into cash. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

Ha! Ha! Ha! Can't be sentimental in the auto repair business, can we? Everything comes to an end. Some things you just can't repair. Ultimately, you have to turn it in for cash. Trade in value.

How did you feel when your brother sold half of your mom's wedding ring? It's a personal choice. I think this just goes to show that he doesn't value sentimental objects like I do. Alright, fair. And is this ring split-able? The lion head, no. No.

You can't pry that ruby out of its mouth. You can't gouge out its diamond eyes. Preferably not. pry that ruby out of its mouth you can't gouge out its diamond eyes. Preferably not. You'd have to deal with the curse of the pharaoh. Yeah but Nick would cash in those diamonds for some money. When do you want the ring to come down to you Callie after your father passes away or soon?

Whenever the time is right. Whenever, if he wants to part with it before he passes, amazing. If not, after he passes, if not after he passes is great. She has gone to him at gatherings and taken the ring and just walked around and sort of flaunted it. Flaunted it around the gatherings? Yes. Do you have it with you now? We thought about it but we chose to keep it where it belongs. Because you knew I would take it. Anyone who sees that beautiful ring wants it.

We all want that ring. Now everyone here in the Lobbatorium at the library has seen the ring and is under its spell. All of these two or 300 people are gonna be coming for your dad's ring. How will it be safeguarded? I think I've heard enough to make my decision. I'm going to go into my chambers.

I'll be back and on with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Nick, how are you feeling about your chances right now? We'll see what happens. I don't know. It's admirable. You're like, I don't know. I didn't have anything better to do.

So Callie, how are you feeling? Unfortunately, I do feel like he has a better case, but I'm still feeling very confident. What if you just split it lengthwise, and each of you award it as a single stud earring? Mm-hmm. Idea. We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his report.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Some time ago in you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. People love jokes. Jokes and humor. So I said to this young person, I'll have this coffee please.

And by the way, you deserve an award in the category of overall excellence. Everybody loves jokes. And the young barista said to me, nice dad joke. A term I had never heard before. He said to me, nice dad joke, and that's how I died. I wasn't even 50 years old. It can happen.

You can die young. And honestly, as someone who has a parent who died relatively young, you don't want to wish for a premature death of a parent, someone that you care about and that you love, just to get their cool ring anyway. I don't think that that's what you're wishing for. But it came into focus for me that why your dad doesn't take this particularly seriously, because he is, on average average a person who's got a lot of life

ahead of him and I wish him many, many, many more years of life even if you, Callie, don't. But. I'm going to be honest, okay, that I think that you probably should have the ring, Callie. I'm rooting for you. Here's why. that I think that you probably should have the ring, Kelly. I'm rooting for you. Here's why. One, you told that wonderful story that involved the armoire

and I love an armoire story. Anything. An armoire or wardrobe, you name it. I love it. Yeah. I double love a story where armoire is pronounced arm-wire because of some Michigan thing that I don't know about. Couldn't have been more charming. wire because of some Michigan thing that I don't know about.

Couldn't have been more charming. And Nick took his half of the legacy from his from your shared mother and sold it for cash, which is a reasonable thing to do. It just but I think that you made your case very strongly that Nick is, has a different understanding of sentiment when it comes to things. And you know, what he has an understanding of is he wants to honor his dad and that his dad should take this treasure with him into the dirt. Or perhaps after life if you believe in such a thing. That's where his sentiment goes. But to keep and hang on to something is not his thing, right? So why should he keep and hang on to something?

And I think the argument that Nick is taking over the legacy of the family business, you articulated an absence in your life that could be filled by a cool lion with a ruby in its mouth. So I am rooting for you, but as I was reminded when you took the stage, both of you chewing gum like a couple of little rascals, Like a couple of rascallions. That you're very, very, very young yourself. It makes sense that your dad is relatively young.

You're gonna be young too. Many, many years to figure this out. And ultimately, it really is your dad's decision. I really enjoy the story of you going and sneaking it off your dad's finger and wandering around family events, trying it on for size. I hope that he understands what it means to you. And perhaps you could write him a letter

or talk to him about it, but ultimately it really has to be his decision, not mine. But I'll tell you what, if I were your dead dad, I'd wish you best of luck with the automobile business. And I wish you the best of luck keeping your beautiful, cool lion head ring away from all these monsters who are going to be coming for you because they got the curse. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is up. Kelly and Nick, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

Thank you to Reddit user TacoSalad for naming the case in this episode. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman. We're on YouTube and TikTok at JudgeJohnHodgmanPod. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast was created by John Hodgman and Jesse Thorn. This episode recorded by Matthew Barnhart. Dan Telfer is our social media manager. AJ McKeon is our podcast editor. Daniel Spear is our video editor.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Thank you this week, by the way, to Eli Neuberger at the Ann Arbor District Library, who was nice enough to make this show happen for us. And also, John? Thank you this week, by the way, to Eli Neuberger at the Ann Arbor District Library, who was nice enough to make this show happen for us. And also, John? Yes? Put up with the social media furor

when the tickets sold out too fast. Tickets sold out too fast, people were disappointed. We gotta go back. We've got to go back. It's like the island in lost. We've gotta go back. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.