Judge John Hodgman - A Trial of Two Cities

Episode Date: February 12, 2014

Philadelphia and Raleigh face off! Cousins Lara and Christine each claim her city is best. Who is RIGHT? We're joined by expert witness JON WURSTER of Superchunk, The Mountain Goats and the late, great, BEST SHOW ON WFMU.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, a trial of two cities. Christine brings the case against her cousin Laura. Christine lives in Philadelphia. Laura lives in Raleigh. Christine says the two cities aren't comparable and Philadelphia is clearly the superior city. Laura disagrees. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Though she envies not others their merited glory, say whose name stands the foremost in liberty's story, though too true to herself ere to crouch to oppression,

who can yield to just rule a more loyal submission do I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that in the America's most livable city competition, he voted for the undersea city of Atlantis? Yes. I do. Yes. Very well, Judge Hodgman. It is technically an American city. I will stand by that.

I've done the research. I can show you my PowerPoint. an American city. I will stand by that. I've done the research. I can show you my PowerPoint. Christine and Laura, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in your favor. Can either one of you name not one but both

pieces of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom? I thought it was the Bible maybe who's speaking? Laura, the Bible maybe Laura, and you live in Raleigh, North Carolina you do not know your Bible Christine

I have no culture, no can you name one of the pieces of culture that I referenced since you live in Philadelphia? Yeah, but I'm not from here, so I think I get it pretty fast. You don't want to do a little East Coast swing and take a guess at one of them? I don't know. let me let me let me let me let me give you're not going to win but i refuse to i refuse to hear this case unless you can unless you can name at least one of the pieces of culture that i

referenced you submitted evidence posing with a plaque Oates. I almost said it too. No. Hall & Oates. That was definitely Hall & Oates. I'm sorry. There's two pictures. There's not a lot of daylight between Hall & Oates and Boys to Men. I couldn't remember which plaque I submitted. There were two pictures. Judge Hodgman, are those really the lyrics to

Motown Philly? Because I remember it differently. Well, I did a classic mashup because I am young and hip and relevant. And I mashed up the one part of the acapella portion of Motown Philly by Boyz II Men with the state song of North Carolina. Oh. Which is called The Old North State. Sorry. Because when North Carolina, when William Gaston wrote the state song for North Carolina in 1835, he wanted to give it the most confusing name possible.

Before North Carolina, North Carolina is a Southern is a, is a Southern state after all it is the very, is among the very Northern of the American Southern states. And it's song, it's song is full, is full of insecurity, which is partly what we're talking about.

While we live, we will cherish protect and defender though the scorner may sneer at and writings defame her which is what you're doing christine you are defaming raleigh north carolina in favor of your new chosen home city philadelphia or as they used to say on television, Philadelphia, which is in Pennsylvania, by the way, listeners, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And you are angry at Laura because she refuses to admit that Philadelphia is a better city than Raleigh, where she lives. Is that correct?

is a better city than Raleigh where she lives. Is that correct? Well, I guess it's more of a whatever, whenever I mention Philadelphia or something good in Philadelphia or when she visited me in Philadelphia, she constantly compares it to Raleigh. Not constantly. She is the scorner. She is the scorner and the sneerer then. Oh, so she is, she is the scorner. She is the scorner and the sneerer then.

No, no, no, no, no. That's not true. Yes. And you and you, Christine are the insecure one. Give me a little back. Give me a little background here. First of all, you are cousins in law. Is that correct, Christine? Yes. She married my cousin, Kyle.

All right. And where are you from? You live in Philadelphia now, Christine, but you are from where originally? I was a Air Force brat. So I I lived all over, but my parents... Can I just say, is it that every child in a military family is a brat? Aren't there any good ones? No, we're all terrible people. Christine, so you moved around as a child yes okay you but you're and so where were some of the places that you lived um I have lived in South Korea and uh forgot the name of Woodbridge Virginia and but we spend the most time in colorado springs colorado colorado springs colorado

and your cousin that's your so say again please oh and my parents live in colorado still so i visit them a lot so you're a coloradan more or less would you say sure uh so would you say that you are would you say you're a coloradan or an Air Forcean, Christine? I'll say Coloradan. Okay. And when did you move to Philadelphia? I moved here about five years ago. And for what reason? Cheese steak internship? Well, I really like cheese steaks and I love carbs, so I wanted to go to the most carb-filled city.

But really, it was because I thought I wanted to go to the most carb filled city, but really it was because I thought I wanted to go to grad school. And there are a lot of schools here. There are a lot of schools or I could move to New York or get to New York pretty easily or down to DC if I chose to go there. Uh, but I ended up just decided not to go to grad school. Well, you make, you make a lot of the points for Philadelphia right there. It is,, gastronomically, and academically central in many ways to our culture, and in particular in terms of its sandwich culture, dangerous. Yes. But you ended up not going to grad school, and instead now you work at Zipperhead on South Street. I don't even think it's on South Street anymore. I don't even know where it is. You don't even know what I'm talking going to grad school. And instead now you work at zipper head on South street. I don't even think it's on South street anymore. I don't even know where it is.

I don't even know what I'm talking about. No, no. Cause you're, cause you're a noob. You're a Philadelphia noob. Where do you work at, at,

at Morimoto? What do you do? I work in medical publishing. Med pub. All right. Yeah. A lot of hospitals, a lot of hospitals? I work in medical publishing. MedPub? All right. Yeah. A lot of hospitals. A lot of hospitals.

And a lot of publishers and a lot of opportunities for people with English degrees. Christine, you've spoken for a while. Laura? Yeah. You live in Raleigh, North Carolina, the capital of North Carolina, where indeed there are also a lot of hospitals. Mm-hmm. This is the city. And universities, yeah. And universities. It is one third of the research triangle.

And what are the other two cities? Durham and Chapel Hill. Right. Because you're not a noob. Are you from the North State, the old North State? I was actually born at a hospital in pittsburgh but i consider raleigh my hometown because i consider any place you have to live because your parents chose it for you to be your hometown when did you move to when did you move to raleigh uh i think i was three or four at the age of 32 my parents moved us they stuffed me into the bag of their wagon here. And Raleigh is a city, first of all. And it is a city of many transients, right?

Because there are a lot of hospitals and colleges there. A lot of people whose parents are not from North Carolina moved to the Research Triangle. Artisanal pencil sharpener David Reese is but one of them and grew up there. And are you shunned as a non-native in the city of Raleigh? No, because I've gone native because I married a native. You married this cousin of Laura's. Not my cousin, no. You married this cousin of Christine's. Not my cousin, no. You married this cousin of Christine's.

We're not that bad. Yes. Not your cousin, I understand. But you married this cousin of Christine who's now making your life miserable by trying to get you to move to Philadelphia. She wants me to freeze to death. Well, yeah, no, but how are things in the snow, right? Today is a big snowstorm across the American southeast. I had the day off from work, so we took our dogs to one of the beautiful parks we have within walking distance, and then we just kind of, you know, went home and

listened to the Chamber of Commerce over here. What is your dog's name? I have two. One is named Nitro and the other is named Mocha. What kind of dogs are they? Nitro is a Rottweiler and Jack Russell mix, and Mocha is a Chihuahua and American Eskimo mix. To quote the great American radio comedian John Worcester, What? and radio comedian John Worcester.

What? A Rottweiler-Jack Russell-Terrier mix? That's a mutant dog. She's beautiful. How could that dog have been born? Well, I hope that R Bob Weiler was the girl. It just doesn't seem, it seems like a horrible thing to do to one of those dogs. Well, Jack Russell got loose out east, and apparently it got to a lot of girls,

and they ended up with a lot of half-Jack Russell mixes in this one city. Well, since this is a dispute, for reasons that we will get into, over whether or not you, Laura, who lives in Raleigh currently, will move to Philadelphia with or without your husband, under the pressure of your cousin Christine, or whether, Christine, you will admit that Raleigh is, I believe what you submitted was Laura's claim, that Raleigh is as good, if not better, than Philadelphia. And since I have already quoted the great American radio comedian, musician, and Renaissance person, John Worcester, who is, in many ways, a native of both areas, may I please bring in expert witness John Worcester. Will you please approach the bench? Hello, Your Honor. Hello. How are you, John? I'm good. Thank you for approaching

the bench. Yeah. Now you're in Chapel Hill, North Carolina right now. Is that not correct? That is correct. That is where you live. Yes. It has been hit by an epic snowstorm for North Carolingian tastes. What did you get, two inches? I think we got a solid one and a tenth. Oh my goodness. Yes. Are you stocked up? Do you have cans of soup and bottled water?

And I know you have your knives and guns. Yes, I have one can of soup and one half bottle of water. And your knives and guns? I lost them. They were actually taken from me. Oh, I see. Has the pillaging begun already? It has, yes.

Chapel Hill? Yes. People have torches, and it's only like 4 o'clock. Right. How long have you lived in Chapel Hill? Well, I moved to Winston-Salem, North Carolina in 1986. I lived there about five years. Moved to Chapel Hill in 91. And I pretty much, with the exception of a couple years where I lived in Brooklyn in the late 2000s. Yes. I've lived here since 1991. So you are a legit research triangulin.

Yes. At the very least. Yes. Right. But I was born outside of Philadelphia, though. Oh, you were born outside of Philadelphia in what town? Harleysville, PA. Harleysville, PA. Harleysville, PA.

Yes. I went to Southerton. Famous for? Oh, you know what it's famous for? What? Actually, he didn't live in my town, but he went to my high school. The great pitcher, Jamie Moyer. Hello?

Oh, that's sports? I'm right here with you, Jamie. Yes. Southpaw hurler. Yes. Jamie Moyer. Jamie Moyer, I think, is the oldest player to ever play. Is that possible in the major leagues?

That's not correct, but he was very old by the time that he retired. He was among the oldest players and certainly one of the oldest successful players ever. Okay. You know, I am prejudiced in this case. I will not recuse myself because it's only internet law. But I am prejudiced in this case for two reasons. One, my mother, who is no longer alive, was from Philadelphia, and it is a city very close to my heart. My engorged heart, my scrapple-engorged heart.

And two, but two also, Raleigh, or the Research Triangle, at least, is home to a National Hockey League team called the what, Laura? Hurricanes. The Hurricanes. That's what they've been called since you stole them from Hartford, Connecticut, when they were the Whalers. The only major league team that Connecticut got. And as you know, it has the most beautiful logo in the history of sports.

With the use of the negative space to form the H and then the W and then the whale tail. It's the most gorgeous thing designed by Peter Good who still lives and designs logos in Hartford. And you took them. I only see it as a logo on people younger than me wearing their t-shirts. Well, I'm not accusing you of being a Hurricanes fan. Are you? Yes, I actually am. Then j'accuse!

All right. But, Hadrin, I really like that on the issue of this one specific sports logo, you go completely 100% Paul Lucas from UniWatch. Like your mouth starts salivating and you just flip out. I really love that logo. And I really love extinct sports teams because it speaks directly to my love of sort of esoteric knowledge. And I love the fact that at Bradley International Airport

in Hartford or Windsor Locks, Connecticut, they have tons of Hartford Whalers merchandise. They are still selling T-shirts and merch for a hockey team that is now fictional. I love it. I love every bit of it. So, yeah, I'm not a jock either, John Worcester, but I'll talk sports. It's fun to talk sports. But, John, I didn't bring jock either, John Worcester, but I'll talk sports. It's fun to talk sports. But, John, I didn't bring you here to talk sports.

Okay. You are a man. You are a colossus astride these two very places that these cousins-in-law are in dispute over with one foot, one great bronze foot in the research triangle, one great bronze foot in Veterans Stadium, the former Veterans Stadium. Sports, right? Yes. You got me, right? Yep. And the spectrum, that was a thing, right?

I'll tell you who I saw the spectrum real quick. I saw Queen in 1980. Yeah. the spectrum real quick i saw queen in 1980 yeah i saw the kinks in 1981 yeah uh i saw a flock of seagulls and the gogos in 1982 where i lost together i lost my wallet at the urinal in the bathroom yes wait a minute you lost your wallet at the urinal some for some reason i put my wallet up on the urinal and i left it there i have no idea why because what does a 14 year old boy have in his wallet nothing right so you're like i can i can just leave this on this wallet tray while exactly yes yes it's nice that they put a ceramic wallet wallet tray in the bathroom at the at the spectrum it's just another another example of fine philadelphian craftsmanship absolutely there's

some stuff inside a 14 year old's wallet you got your boys and curls club membership yeah you got your library card you got your a flock of seagulls fan club membership card i couldn't afford any of that stuff yeah i'm sorry how did you get into how did you get into the spectrum to see the show? I snuck in Ali Skor's bass drum case. Ali Skor is the drummer for Block of Seagulls, everybody. I think we're having him on the podcast next week. You should. We have a seagull-related case. John, real quick.

Yes, please. You proved yourself Philly savvy by name dropping um zipper head yes can you tell me what the name of zipper head's competitor was velcro foot no what was it zipper head skins oh skins. Oh, skin. Yes. With a Z on the end. Absolutely. Yes. Zipperhead was,

was ladies. When I was a youth and would go to Philadelphia, the place you would go would be South street. If you were a Caucasian person, looking for some of the hottest trends and music cass person. Exactly. Looking for some of the hottest trends and music cassettes. Yes. And Zipperhead was the place where you would buy your Dr. Martin's boots.

It was essentially the Alston Beat of Philadelphia. You know, Miley Cyrus says that's where she got her new look from, South Street on Philly. Why didn't she include that in your evidence? Because I don't want it. That might speak against her. South Street is also home to one of the great bars of the world, Bob and Barbara's,

home of the special. And Hats and the Belfry, which I believe is still there, which sells regular hats and novelty hats. And, and was the workplace of the comedian, Paul F.

Tompkins precisely at the time that I was probably going in there to try on hats with my then girlfriend, now wife. Ooh. So a lot of history, a lot of history. A lot of history. So, obviously, Laura, obviously, Philadelphia is historically

one of the most significant places, not to take anything away from Raleigh, the city of oaks, home of the hurricanes, sort of home, I guess. But Philadelphia is one of the most historically significant cities in america it is three times larger than raleigh its contribution to film music literature medicine and sandwich studies is pretty undisputable how do you make the case that raleigh is just as good as philadelphia if not better well i think that christine is slightly exaggerating my if not better? Well, I think that Christine is slightly exaggerating my if not better comment,

because our arguments are usually that Raleigh is basically, you know, deliverance style. Everyone's just kind of like, you know, picking our teeth and wandering around, you know. Basically, my whole argument is that I feel like Raleigh is, you know, a good city to live in if you plan on having kids, because then you don't have to worry about like if you're living in Philly. It's a great place to live when you're young. But as soon as you have kids, it seems like everyone migrates out to the suburbs and then never goes out unless they want to go to like Zaxby's for their life. Not not if they have English degrees. If they have English degrees, they stay in the, they stay in center city. That's just true.

How old are you? How old are you, Laura? Um, I'm in my late twenties. All right. And Christine, how old are you?

I'm 29. Um, so, uh, thank you for being specific and not being dodgy like Laura was. Just building my case. Laura, do you have kids?

Not yet. Um, but I plan on having them in the next few years in the next couple of years. Okay. Uh, Christine, is it true that you accuse Raleigh of being Hicksville USA? Uh,

well, I should say that, um, my aunt who is her husband's mother, uh, is from Greenville, North Carolina. So there is a little bit of taunting with banjo playing and, you know, hit. Yes. So basically, yeah.

So when you say banjo playing, do you mean mustache banjo playing? And when you say mustache banjo playing, are we talking about sincere or ironic mustaches? Well, a little of everything. But mostly, do you know, knew, knew, knew, knew, knew, knew. Great. All right. Before you. What is that supposed to be?

Before you. Before you. Before you. Before you become too offensive. before you, before you, before you become too offensive, you are,

you are, you are referring Greenville is in the, in the mountains of North Carolina, right? Oh, it's out East. It is. Yeah. It's close to the beach.

It's yeah. It's out East about two hours. Okay. Well then, then how is it, how is it anything to do with deliverance? Right. Because everyone associates the whole South with deliverance.

Right. So you appreciate that the tar that you are feathering the tar heel state with is unfair tar, to stretch a metaphor? Perhaps you should bring your tarring to heel. That's hot. That's hot. Bailiff Jesse. Hot stuff. Hot tar. Christine. Yes. Before we go further, can you just apologize to North Carolina? Yeah. I'm sorry, North Carolina.

Don't be a, yeah, say it again. I'm sorry, North Carolina. Thank you. Christine, why do you want Laura to leave a place that she obviously likes and come to Philadelphia? I feel like I've benefited from moving around a little bit and exploring new cities. And I feel like, you know, I know that both Kyle and Laura have spent a significant time in North Carolina. And so, you know, Philadelphia might not be the city. It might be fun for them to move to another city for a few years and then come back to Raleigh. So you've lived in Raleigh your whole life, except for a brief period in the wilderness

in Pittsburgh. Is that not right, Laura? Well, I actually did meet my husband in Greenville, but I've also studied abroad and I've traveled a lot. And Kyle lived in Yokohama for a little bit. So it's not like we've never left North Carolina. Oh, he lived in Yokohama? Yeah, he lived in Yokohama when he was in high school.

You know what I'm talking about, right, Yokohama? Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. That was both the insulting dueling banjos riff and the insulting Asian riff. Mashup culture, everybody. So you've traveled. Where else have you lived, Laura? Because Christine is accusing you of being an insular person who has not experienced the big city like Philadelphia.

So tell me where you lived. I lived in London for a little bit. Never heard of it. And then I lived. Never heard of it. London, Ontario? I think London, Oregon, maybe. No, but I lived in London for a little bit. And then I lived with my dad in Vienna for a little bit. So, you know, it's not like I've never been outside of a city. I know what buildings are. I know what bigger areas are like. It's just, I've always really enjoyed Raleigh. I feel like we have a really friendly culture here and that we actually, instead of kind of relying on the actions of people who used to live in the city, that people try to make something for themselves down here? So let's go to this evidence that you submitted.

You know, right now, basically, Christine, you're asking me as the judge to declare what? A, that Philadelphia is better and B, that Laura should move there? I think it would, I think what I would like to be ruled that in the future, I think specifically there was one, they've only visited me once since I've been here. Right. And I have been to Raleigh several times since I've been here. Wait, wait, wait. No, no, no.

You wait. You wait, ma'am. Okay. This is, this is, you are that though you are not i have not spoken to you directly okay i'm sorry and i i don't hate raleigh i actually enjoy the visits with them and it's nice to enjoy a slower pace of life isn't it yeah i mean i i am from a from a Yeah, I mean, I am from Colorado Springs, which is very different than Philadelphia. And I guess it would just be nice if next time they visit, if there's a little bit more openness to Philadelphia. Yeah, so you sent in a picture of yourself kneeling beside the boys to men plaque

that is part of the, the fairly long block of fame of, well, it's probably more than one block of musical fame that right outside the double tree suites on what street is that on? Market? No. No, that's Broad.

Broad Street. Avenue of the Arts. Right. Avenue of the Arts. But I know, because I've taken a picture of myself with that same plaque. Did you see the Kevin Eubanks one? I did. I've seen it.

I've gone up there. No. All right. Good. And you say that Laura refused to pose with that plaque. Is that true, Laura? It is not. That is not true at all.

This is a claim that has been made. I was the one taking the picture. Yeah, but you would not pose with it? I wasn't asked to. Where are you getting this? Kyle. I quote from the submission of evidence. My cousin Kyle was very excited to see this plaque.

Laura refused to pose with it. Here I am, Christine, proud of the musicians of Philadelphia. Did you or did you not refuse to pose with the Boys to Men plaque? I can't even remember this. I would not have refused to. I love Boys to Men. They were my first dance when I was a kid. Which song?

End of the Road? Oh, gosh. Gotta be when I was a kid. Which song? End of the Road? Oh, gosh. It's got to be. I can't remember. Maybe. I really can't remember. Now I'm thinking you're a liar. But speaking of liars, can I just say, Christine has said that she's visited us multiple times,

and it's only been to sleep at our house and then to head to Greenville. She has never explored Raleigh with us. All right. So, Laura, why is Philadelphia terrible? It's not that Philadelphia is terrible. I just feel like Philly, you know, every time I talk to people about Philly, it's about, oh, this person did this great thing from a long time ago. And this person did this great thing from a long time ago. And this person did this great thing from a long time ago. Whereas like, if you wander around Raleigh,

things are happening right now. People are trying to make the city great. You know, we've got tons of great festivals that are starting and, you know, we actually make stuff here. Whereas from what I recall, the most famous item that,

you know, Philly purports to have is not actually made in Philly. Christine, what are you? What could you be? The hoagie? Cream cheese? Not actually made there.

Cream cheese? Cream cheese. Our items are actually from Raleigh. The most famous item from Philadelphia is not cream cheese. I said food item. Not even allowed! I feel like... I don't think that Philly is worse

than Raleigh. I feel like they're both cities. I just feel like in Philly, once you have kids, you kind of have no option but to move out to the suburbs, whereas in Raleigh, I have tons of friends with kids who still go out every night to places outside of Macaroni Grill, which, you know, a lot of my friends who have kids up in like Boston and New York, as soon as they have kids, they can't afford to live there anymore. So they

just, that's all they do. But see, this is one of the beautiful things about Philadelphia. And I, and I don't, and I don't want to ruin the secret, but it's a very affordable city to live in, even Center City. You walk down the beautiful streets of Center City, Philadelphia, all you see are for rent signs, for sale signs. I've seen some beautiful homes. I've filmed in beautiful homes in Philadelphia that they were selling for $5. Or not. Not $5. I can't remember the exact amount. But like a six-story townhouse

gorgeously rented brand new got renovated for under a million dollars and that's like the top level top top top top top it's a very little under a million dollars is considered cheap in philly because that's a lot of money. I'm saying... For a six-story townhouse, yeah. I'm saying this was like buying... If you bought a mansion in Raleigh, how much would it cost? I'm looking at a five-bedroom right now for $160. No, I'm talking about a historic, lovingly preserved and renovated mansion in the middle of the most nicest part of town.

and a display of the Continental Congress where various lights point to who's talking and then sound plays whenever one of the various members of the Continental Congress talks. And also relative easy access to a museum of medical oddities with an amazing display of a megacolon and the death cast of Chang and Eng Bunker,

the original Siamese twins. That's right. Very exciting. Yeah. I mean, that's not Raleigh specific. I don't think we have that in Raleigh. Oh, we don't. No.

Okay. I was just thinking. John. Yes. The Mudder Museum. The Mudder Museum. Yes. And the underground Benjamin Franklin Museum, which is really a trip.

I don't know about that. Yeah, it's underneath Benjamin Franklin's house. Benjamin Franklin's house is memorialized by, as I recall, a sort of a chalk line on the ground type of sculpture installation. And then you go underneath it and there's this crazy museum where there's this huge bank of telephones that you can use to call world leaders of the past. And then there is this big diorama of the Continental Congress that has an extensive audio show that is enlivened by various flashing lights. See, that's Philly fun. It is awesome. Right, with double P-H's.

Yes. And it was underground for a long time because Benjamin Franklin was keeping it a secret for most of his life. Okay. He built a museum to himself underneath his own house because during the early, during colonial times, a museum to a living person was considered to be an affront. Yes. And an apostasy. And so that's why. Secret museum. I'm making your case for you here, Christine, jump in.

Yeah. I mean, and I took her there and, you know, I live a few blocks from- You took her to the Motor Museum? Yeah. No, no, no. The Benjamin Franklin Museum. And we had a lot of fun there. And, you know, we have mommy happy hours around the city, which are only from one to three. So if you have kids, you can take your kids to bars. Yeah, I think it's hard to make an argument. I think it's hard to make an argument that the people who have kids in Philadelphia are just going to macaroni grill all the time. Yeah.

That's not what happens. Oh, we don't even have one. Yeah. That's not what happens. We don't even have one. Additionally, Laura no longer has a driver's license, which is, I just want to bring up because Philadelphia is so easy to get around without a car. SEPTA. SEPTA, yeah.

I've lived here for five years without a car, and it's, you know, it's wonderful. Tell me about your home in North Carolina. Well, we live in a historic neighborhood that was one of the areas that freed slaves first moved into in Raleigh and it's a duplex. And we basically have three stories. And you finally got rid of them. And now you have a beautiful home. Three stories.

Yes, it's very nice. I'm just saying in terms of history, there's a lot of history in the area. And it's basically you don't have to pay extra for dogs or cats, which I was looking on the Craigslist for Philadelphia, and you almost always have to pay extra for dogs or cats, which I was looking on the Craigslist for Philadelphia, and you almost always have to pay more for dogs and cats. And Christine didn't mention this, but one of the visits she came down here for was for our wedding. And we were able to have the wedding reception in our backyard for free because we have such a large backyard, which I don't think is very common in Philadelphia to have a yard at all. So I think that that's definitely

a point in my favor. Pets are important to you. You submitted some evidence to the effect that some website judged Raleigh as better for cats and dogs than Philadelphia? Yes. What was the name of the website? I forget. I think it was like a daily growl or something

i don't want to buzz market a website and i and i but i feel pretty safe saying that the name of the website you sent me was creditkey.com because anyone with any sense will never click on a link that starts CreditDonkey.com That feels as though the moment I arrow over that link, I'm going to be so stuffed with malware and

pornography advertisements and spam, but it's a real website. To be fair, John, CreditDonkey.com is the New York Times of horse-like loan websites. CreditDonkey.com is a financial... I feel like I'm being unfairly ganged up on here.

No, I think it's pretty fair. Yeah, this one is pretty much 100% fair. CreditDonkey.com. I do not remember that URL. I think Christine is submitting the name of that website because I don't remember citing it. I think that's all Christine there. Dated November 30, 2013. Study Best Cities for Cats, Dogs, and Rabbits. Number one, Portland, Oregon. Number two, Seattle, Washington. Number two, Seattle, Washington.

Number three, Washington, D.C. Number four, Louisville, Kentucky. Number five, Minneapolis, Minnesota. Number six, Baltimore, Maryland. Number seven, Denver, Colorado. Number eight with a bullet, Raleigh, North Carolina. Philadelphia is not even in the top ten. It is number 16.

So, never mind cheesesteaks the motor museum little pete's uh the the uh the terminal market uh the birthplace of noam chomsky bill cosby john palito terry gross dj jesse jeff questlove uh also um bob barker prince charles john paulartre, and Jesus, it is number 16. Forget all that good stuff. It's number 16 for dogs and cats, and therefore, no good. Is that your argument? Christine is still making it about me trying to make Raleigh superior. I'm just saying that Raleigh is, you know, not a bad city.

That's one of my, yeah, it's not a bad city. I got to tell you something, though. All of the arguments you're making, and perhaps, I mean, you're pretty sniffy about Philadelphia. I am not. I don't think anyone in Philadelphia would have a backyard. That seems pretty expensive to me. That's pretty sniffy. Hey, guys.

Okay. Yeah. I have a question for laura laura did you ever take christine to chargrill i tried like i said every time she came to visit she just came here to sleep and refused to wawa and if so what wawa i did not take them to wawa however i it was a missed opportunity because i lived by the eighth and walnut oh i was gonna say that's that's a good one it is it is i didn't want to scare them too much because around certain times there are more seedy people hanging out there.

But it is by one of my favorite bars, the Locust Bar, which if they came to visit again, I would definitely take them there. Okay. Hey, guys, speaking of seedy people, these are two strikes against Philly that I feel I should bring up. against Philly that I feel I should bring up. In the last couple of weeks, there have been two very public incidents of public masturbation in Philadelphia. Christine has been bragging about this. The first, of course, was the Swiss cheese masturbator who used Swiss cheese, of course. And the other one was one that just happened yesterday.

Apparently where a man who was actually from New Jersey drove into Philadelphia and drove into a, um, a fried chicken restaurant and then got out of his car and took his clothes off and pleasured himself. So there's something going on in Philly. That. Yeah, there's definitely. Needs to be discussed.

There's a darkness. Yeah. To Philadelphia. That sounded crypto racist. And I did not mean it to sound that way. But someone from Philadelphia might. Because there is also a crypto racism to Philadelphia. And sometimes not so crypto. Sometimes pretty much out in the open.

There is definitely an edge to Philadelphia in terms of it is much more of a city than Raleigh is. Them guys stay on their side and we stay on ours. It's Philly Boy Roy, everybody. He just ran out the door. He just needed to make his point. He's just gone door to door to every podcast in North

Carolina right now. Yeah. So, you know, there is that as well. But Christine, you know, John, you had quizzed me about skins on South Street. Yes. Christine is a relative newcomer to Philadelphia, having lived there for five years.

She seemed to have passed the good Wawa test. Yeah. Are there any other things that you feel that she should know about? Well, of course. I mean, that you could quiz her on? Oh, well, let me think here. Well, I mean, I'll start out, obviously, Pats or Genos or Jims. Jims, or actually Tony Luke's, but otherwise Jims.

Yeah, I like Jims too. That's good. That's pretty good. And you know Tony Luke's too. That's pretty good. Bob and know Tony Luke's too. That's pretty good. Bob and Barbara's or Dirty Frank's? Oh, Bob and Barbara's. Well, that's just because you heard me say that before.

Oh, no, no, no. Because I used to live... The answer is Bob and Barbara's when there is no live music, unless it is that jazz band. Yeah, and they play every Saturdayurday friday and saturday yeah right jazz band good any other music bad can't talk about drag night i haven't been there that night so i don't they might have live music there i bet that's a good time it is the best but otherwise dirty franks uh dead milkman or the hooters? Good question. Dead Milkman. Good one.

You put in some time. All right, here's one. Can you tell me what, from which film that was set in Philadelphia does this line come from? Perhaps the greatest line ever uttered in a film. this line come from? Perhaps the greatest line ever uttered in a film.

Karate man bruise on the inside. Oh, I, I have not seen. No, I can't. I'm sorry. John,

can you, I can't even know trading places. Yeah. All right. Here's the big question. Who can tell me what town, Trading places. Oh, yeah. All right, here's the big question. Who can tell me what town I had sex in first, Philadelphia or Raleigh? This is going to decide it. It's the first place I ever, it's my first ever sexual experience, ever. Is this a trick question? Because I'm going to say Chapel Hill.

Okay, Raleigh. Of course I'm going to vote Philly. John? Why don't we use that as a teaser for when I come back from Chambers? Because I think I've heard everything I need to hear

in order to make my decision. I'm going to go into my underground museum to myself and form my decision. And then I'll come back and let you know. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Christine, how are things feeling out in Philadelphia? I feel a little bad. I feel like everyone really beat up on Laura, which, you know, I do want to make a point that, you know, Laura is a great cousin-in-law and we're

very close. And I really appreciate her love of her city of Raleigh. But I think I'm going to win. Do you think Philadelphia is, you think you get good bang for your buck housing-wise in Philadelphia? I really do. And I'm a firm believer in wherever you live, if you have, if you're kind of a hustler, you can find a place within your means. Go hang out with the Spinto Band. Those guys live in Philadelphia. They're nice guys. I love them.

Yeah, they're great guys. Okay, let me ask you this, Laura. How are you feeling right now in Raleigh? I'm feeling defeated. I don't think things are looking too good. I feel like if people gave Raleigh a chance, but then on the other hand, I like the fact that we don't have a lot of tourism here.

It gives me the city to myself. So, you know, it's okay. Do you think that part of the challenge may have been your defensiveness about the lovely city of Raleigh? Well, it's hard when people are beating up on your hometown, especially when it's coming from somebody who's not, that's not their hometown they're talking about. You know, I could be talking about London and about how great it is, but I'm not from there. We'll have the judge's decision when we come back in just a minute. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join, and you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound.

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Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with made-in pots and pans? Really?

What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made in, made in. The Rohan duck, made in, made in. Riders of Rohan, duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made in. Made in. Riders of Rohan. Duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made in. Made in. Made in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need.

Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town? Just buy it online. This is professional grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. present this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. You may be seated. First of all, I would like to enter into the record the geographical location of John Worcester's first sexual experience. Okay.

Well, I lived near Philadelphia until I was 19. And I moved down here. 1986. 1986. I met a girl at a dead milkman show in Raleigh, spring of 1986. And we made love in her dorm on the campus of NC state that night. Just the children, children. Nice, nice, nice work. See?

So that is one vote for Raleigh. I'm going to quote from some evidence that was sent in. Raleigh is a maker city. We don't rely on the city to entertain us like living in larger cities. You don't sit around and go, what's going on tonight? You say, what should we do tonight? I don't understand what this means, Laura, and probably I should have asked you about it. So I'm going to do so now.

Because I don't know what you mean by Raleigh being a maker city? Are you suggesting that in a sort of tea party way that Philadelphia is a mooch, is a taker city, is a parasite? I feel like the Acorn headquarters must be located somewhere near Christine's apartment. No, I just I feel like Raleigh, you know, because we, you know, kind of aren't on the map and because we aren't really well known that we kind of have to try harder, you know, to make the city worthwhile to live in. And, you know, I feel like, you know, a lot of our concert series reflect that. How so? John Worcester, for example, one of the pieces of evidence before I even knew you were going to be on here,

one of the pieces of evidence was from Hopscotch 2011, how many families there were there, you know, instead of just, you know, just younger people. And I feel like that's a really great testament to how the city tries to, you know, throw everything together rather than, you know, just kind of relying on your name recognition, you know? Hopscotch, I presume, is a music festival in Raleigh? It is, yes. Right. And to clarify for those who don't know, John Worcester, apart from being a very famous radio comedian, is also the drummer in some amazing rock bands such as Super Chunk and the Mountain Goats and among others. Right? Would that be accurate to say, John?

I don't want to toot my own horn, but yes. All right. Well, here's the thing. You have a lovely life in Raleigh, Laura. You really, I mean, and I feel you're right. Raleigh has taken some hits today that it doesn't deserve. Certainly the attacks of the anti-Southern, really anti-Appalachian bigotry that's expressed by your cousin, Christine, is offensive. And North Carolina is a wonderful state, and Raleigh is a wonderful town, and you have

a wonderful life in it, in a beautiful home. I perused the photos of your home that you sent in. You're renting it. Can I say the rent for this home, this two-bedroom home with a garage and backyard? Because you put it at $990 for less than $1,000 a month. You have two bedrooms, a garage, a backyard close to downtown. You can walk to get your groceries, which you have to do because you've given up driving. You go to cars, go to art museums, take your dogs to very pretty parks, even though your neighbors hate you for it. And you love it, and you should. It's great. Raleigh's a great town. Research Triangle's a lot of fun. A lot of great music comes through there, a lot of

art. And Christine, you've got a great life. You're living in Philadelphia, right? Yes. Philadelphia, if you don't know, this is the big city that every kid from Colorado Springs dreams of going to. I mean, you go to a high school in Colorado Springs. What was your high school called, Christine? Air Academy High School. It was on the Air Force Base. Right.

And everyone there is going like, when I get out of this place, I'm never looking back. I'm going straight to the city of brotherly love. That's where I'm going. Philadelphia is a, is a cultural center. It is a, it is a, a, a major city in the United States that like a lot of major cities has gone through a lot of downturns and upturns, but it is a, it is a real, it is a big city. And, and you are enjoying your time there. Is that not so? Definitely. And you have passed every possible test that I could think of. I'm sure there are many Philadelphians who, who could think of more, but the ones that I could think of and that John Worcester,

who was a Philadelphia expert could think of you, I feel like you pass them with flying colors in five years. You have, you have really put your roots down and you understand at least some of the sandwich decisions that you have to make pretty well. And I think it speaks to the fact that Philadelphia right now, in particular for young people who are, who are out there in the world trying to figure out what their lives are all about, is a very attractive place because it is relative to New York or D.C., but perhaps not relative to Raleigh.

It is affordable for a young, rootless person who wants to live in a major city. And it is also a relatively small city in the sense that you can figure out where you need to go, like pretty quickly. And if there's a certain kind of life that you want to build for yourself. And so, so those are good. Those are good things for you. You guys have great lives. This whole dispute is dumb, right? And, and, and, and the, and the judgments i'm making on both of you is is is stop it stop you know go back go back to the old north state song though the scorner may sneer at and writings defame her you're both being scorners and sneerers for no reason there is no reason for you laura to to to make the point which you sent in as evidence, but also clearly have been thinking about, to make the point that Raleigh is a maker city.

That Philadelphia is not a, that's a city of parasites. Of parasites. And similarly, Christine, there is no reason. These places are right for where you are in your lives. Laura, you are someone who wants to walk around with your dogs in parks and have a backyard where you can host weddings. And you're going to raise a family sometime. And in many ways, what you're describing in Raleigh is right for you. But it's not right for Christine, who wants to live in squalor in Philadelphia, in a much more dangerous city, which has an edge to it. Right?

And who, when she comes to Raleigh, all she wants to do is sleep all day. All she wants to do is sleep all day because you're both in your late 20s. But it is so apparent that, Laura, you're at that 29 that tilts far more to 35, right? You are already – you've probably buried your 20s when you were 25, right? Because you're thinking about a family. You've been all over the world, you're already moving into an adulthood that a smaller city like Raleigh can support. You're talking about like, I get to go to the music festivals and I get to bring my kids. And it's great.

You know, I'm not just going to be surrounded by young people all the time. You know, you want to live in Park Slope, but forget about that. I don't have a million dollars. Right. No, actually, you don't want to live in Park Slope because you are comfortable being an adult who gets to do some fun things and, and, and you, and you are ready to be an adult. And as soon as you get your driver's license back, then you pass. Whereas Christine obviously is still, you know, she's, she's 29,

but she's tilting towards the 19 end of 29. She doesn't want to give it up. She doesn't want to give it up. She wants to continue to live in utter squalor and go to drag night on Thursday nights at Bob and Barbara and drink a lot of booze and hang around medical oddities and eat foods that are terrible for her. That's why Philadelphia is the right place for her. That's why Philadelphia is the right place for her. That's why you guys don't like the places, right? And this is the thing, like people like what they like. This is a central tenant, tenant, tenant, tenant, not tenant.

Sorry, everyone. You can stop writing those emails. This is a central tenant of the court of Judge John Hodgman. So to bring your cousin-in-law to court in order to order her to acknowledge the superiority of Philadelphia is on its face absurd. I should have never heard this case, except for the fact that it would give me an opportunity to talk to John Worcester. We had fun, didn't we? Yeah, and to talk about Wawa and lunch meats, you know? Trading places.

And to talk about trading places. Karate Man hurt on the inside. Karate Man bruised on the inside. Whatever it is. All right. When we finish this case, we're going to retire to a dark room above the Philadelphia Stock Exchange, and one of us is going to give $1 to the other. $1, that's it. $1.

But I did hear the case, so I have to make a ruling, even though this is a dumb thing. And what it comes down to is this. Do I find in favor of Laura? Because Christine is being a bully and doesn't want to let her cousin whom she enjoys pass gracefully into adulthood and then death. And is trying to hold, hang on to her and drag her up to Philadelphia and, and, and, and, and is trying to hold, hang on to her and drag her up to Philadelphia and craves for whatever reason, the approval of a lifestyle that Laura clearly does not approve of because Christine is an Air Force brat and Laura is filling in as a maternal figure for her.

And that's all about a bunch of static that Laura doesn't need. Or do I find in favor of Christine because Laura is a real snob about Raleigh. And also, Philadelphia's a better city than Raleigh. If you're talking about, I don't know. Philadelphia is one of the biggest, it's one of the big cities in our, well, so is Raleigh too. I don't know.

I'm going to get some people in Raleigh mad. But Philadelphia is three times as large. It was the capital of the United States, for heaven's sake. The United States of America. Oh, it's a conundrum. John Worcester, do you have a sense of how I should rule? You know, it's tough because I've lived in both. I love them both.

I'm going to say, oh, this is hard for me to say. I think I would rather live at this point in my life in Philadelphia. I love it here. For me, there's a little more to do up there. And you are a woman in her early, soon to be in her early 30s, about to have children? Me? No, not yet yeah but someday i'm 28 and i i haven't started dating yet so well no one's gonna be forced

if you count that dead milkman concert as a date that's true no no one is going to be forced to move anywhere. But I will say this. My initial ruling is stop bothering each other about this. My secondary ruling is that if your definition is which is a better major city, a better major city, Philadelphia wins hands down just in terms of its history and importance and its size and its influence. You know, and I would say, even though I like Philadelphia more than I like even New York City, if it were between Philadelphia and New York as as to which is a better major city. New York, I mean, better, who knows what that means, but you know what I'm saying, right? But in terms of a better place to live, that is meaningless.

Raleigh is a great city. And it is a city, and it is a capital of a state, the old North State. a city and it is a capital of a state, the old North state. And I would say that the one thing that I regret about this entire affair is that Raleigh may come off looking not so great. So before I bang my gavel in favor of Philadelphia, as it was always to be. I am going to give Laura a proud North Carolinian and Raleigh, the Raleigher, an opportunity to,

to tell the listeners and Christine a few more great things about Raleigh without being sniffy about any place else. Are you prepared to do that? I can do that. All right, Laura, go for it. Okay. We have, I sound like the Chamber of Commerce, but we actually know how to do barbecue here. I love it.

Yeah. We do the best barbecue I've ever had in my life. Where? Buzz Market. We're very friendly. Even better than when you lived in Vienna? I don't know how it compares to Vienna's barbecue. I didn't have enough there to really compare.

But London's barbecue, it's miles away better than London's barbecue. Right. But South Korea, Bulgogi, that's pretty good too. But no, North Carolinian barbecue is great. Is there a place that you like? Clyde Cooper's, to not buzz market, but I had them for our wedding Christine had it so she can um attest to how wonderful they are was it good Christine yeah yeah yeah that's right it was this is this is the fate this is the punishment phase where you are punished for winning that is

that is the the law of court of Judge John Hodgman's court. The winner is punished. Always. What style of barbecue sauce is that? Would that be a mustard-based sauce? Oh, God, no. It's vinegar, Eastern North Carolina. Vinegary, the best. What else? Let's see.

We have amazing music coming out of here. We stole the Bluegrass Festival from Nashville. Yeah. So we're going to hold on to that for a while. There you go. And Moral Monday came out of Raleigh. We made it all over the news for that. We're an amazing group of people who are willing to get together and talk about what's important in the world. And I feel like that's really great about us. You know, we actually, you know, put forth that energy. And I think that's a really positive thing about our city. I don't know what this thing is. Can you tell me more?

Oh, Moral Monday. Our government was bought out by some lobbyists and they have completely changed the government in North Carolina from being progressive to conservative. And we basically go down every Monday protest in front of it's look it up. It's really fantastic. Yeah, I'm looking it up right now. Moral Mondays on Wikipedia protests in North Carolina in response to several actions by the Republican government of North Carolina. Civil disobedience by entering the state legislature building, being peacefully arrested.

and what were some of the issues here are voting rights, cuts to social programs, tax changes, racial justice, abortion rights, public education, et cetera. And yeah, so that's great. And it's a nice place to live, right? Oh, it's beautiful. Outside of today, which was bizarrely wintry, we're usually a temperate climate. We've got the mountains to the west. We've got the ocean to the east. And it's just, it's a really beautiful city. I feel like, you know, there's no other place that I'd rather live in my life.

Yep. Anything else you want to say? We gave the country the Ava brothers. You're welcome. Thank you. We'll have fat tires soon. Yes, that's true. Yes. Thank you. We'll have fat tires soon. Yes, that's true. Yes. And yeah, that's beer. New Belgium Brewery was a beer. It was a company that was started in Colorado and is going to be opening a employee owned facility in North Carolina.

So wait a minute. Raleigh took the Bluegrass Festival from Nashville, took the Whalers from Hartford, and has now taken Beer Company from Beersville, and you're calling this a maker city?

Seems to me it's a taker city. Judge Sean Hodgman rules everyone live where they want to live raleigh's a beautiful city but this court finds in favor of major city dumb to philadelphia this is the sound of a gabble judge john hodgman rules that is all please rise as judge john hodgman exits the courtroom christine how are you feeling I feel really good. And I can't wait for the next visit we have with Laura. What are you going to do next time you're in Raleigh? I'm definitely going to spend a lot more time with them. And I'm going to let her be my tour

guide. And I'll spend an extended amount of time and see if I like it as much as I like other cities. Yeah. Sorry to jump in. Sorry to jump in. I don't like, I don't like the fact that you feel really good. You should not be feeling so good. Right. I just, I just, I just made a ruling based on the fact that Philadelphia has a, is a larger population and, and, and, and, and was the capital of the United States. That's all I'm saying. Okay. You are, you are not, that doesn't mean you're you won anything. And in fact, a further court order you to visit Raleigh. And as you say, let Laura be your tour guide. And guess what? I ban you from sleeping.

Because you have not lived since you, till you see Raleigh North Carolina at two o'clock in the morning. I have a 19 year old lifestyle. So I think I'll, I'll be fine. Laura, how are you feeling? I'm feeling a lot better than I was earlier. I thought that I was going to be ordered to move to Philly, which would have been not very good for me. But yeah, I'm happy with the ruling. I do like Philly a lot. I think it's a really pretty city, you know, just not someplace I would want to live,

you know? Because it doesn't have the famous cream cheese? No, I wouldn't be able to see where the cream cheese is made. That would really break my heart on a daily basis. Laura, Christine, thanks so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience.

One you have no choice but to embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org.

If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. I kind of feel like moving to Raleigh or possibly Philadelphia. I'm just busy putting some of this Philadelphia-style cream cheese on my barbecue. It's really creamy, isn't it? It's really, it really is. It's creamy just like Philadelphia. I did some great, last time I was in Philadelphia, I did some great consignment shopping.

So there's that, too. Yes. Well, yeah, of course. There's some great old clothes. Great history of music in Philadelphia. I mean, you know, not that there isn't in Raleigh either, but the thing that makes it so hard is that there are

geographical tensions that will be inflamed by this ruling. Because Philadelphia and Raleigh are pretty proximus, but one is definitely a city of the north with a few southern encroachments,

and one is definitely a city of the south with some northern-style progressivism, moral Mondays that's been getting in there because it's a location for transients, much like uh much like philadelphia so i think they're definitely comparable but philadelphia is bigger and that's why i've opened that paper maybe i'm wrong i i honestly have never spent a ton of time in raleigh i i live in chapel i've been there a lot. Well, then I'll just, I'll just void this decision right away. The whole thing's based on a lie. Thank you very much. Bailiff Jesse,

lead him into the liar's tub. I've been there though. Okay, go on. I was playing the fallout shelter before you even heard of Raleigh. Jesse, just put him in the tub, please. And fill it up with Philadelphia cream cheese, please. Mr. Worcester, into the tub. It's the creamiest.

It's the creamiest. What were you going to say about Raleigh, the place that you know nothing about? No, I was going to say, my favorite barbecue story is in Durham, North Carolina, there's this which is very close to Raleigh, there's a barbecue place called Bullocks. And you go in there and on the wall is this elaborately framed collection of photos.

And as you get close to it, you realize, oh my god, that's U2. And this place, Bullocks, catered this big rock festival that they had in Raleigh back in like 1982 or 3. And U2 was on the bill. And in huge letters on this picture, mounted all these photos, it says, U2 band from Ireland.

Beautiful. That's awesome. You guys want to clear the docket? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I don't know what that means, but let's do that. Okay, good. Kears, you know what? Sit in your bath and we'll explain it to you by doing.

It's very creamy in here. The creamiest. It's the creamy in here. The creamiest from what I hear. Normally as punishment we would have filled it up to cover your mouth. I didn't lie though! You know I live in Chapel Hill! So that the cream cheese would choke out your dirty lies. But

because you are a friend of the court we'll only fill it up to your neck. And also, may I note that this is the brick cream cheese, not the whipped, so you should be fully immobile at this point. I don't like this. Yeah. This sucks. Filling to the neck and not over the head because you're a friend of the court is known as the amicus cheese.

Here's something from... A bandicus cheese. Here's something from... A band from Ireland. Here's something from Corey Doctorow of Boing Boing. Oh, hi, Corey. Corey is writing us, as so many do, to share a couple of bits of pedantry. The first is a minor issue from the episode Father Gnaw's Beast,

which was just a couple of weeks ago. You cited cow farts as a source of methane. Actually, it's cow burps that account for the majority of methane emanating from cows. Lots of burping goes with the territory when it comes to ruminants, as many of the stomachs where methane is produced are closer to the mouth than the anus. A cow has 37 stomachs. Corey was not the only person to have noted this error and brought it to my attention, but Corey is the only one who is a co-founder and collaborator on a major website. And so therefore we'll say, sorry, Corey. Yeah. You know what I say? The

only way to solve this is if you and I, John, go on a vacation to Davis, California, where my brother-in-law goes to school, and stick our arms through the side of the cow with the hole in its side. I think that sounds fair. Right? Let's just remember to dislodge John Worcester from the cream cheese before we go, or else by the time we come back, he will have... Well, I guess he wouldn't have starved. He would have eaten himself out. He's got plenty to eat. See, what I don't like is you were wrong and that's kind of like a lie.

So why are you in here with me? All right, I'll get into the cream cheese liar's tub too. Move over. All right. See, I told you it sucks. Here's a second point of pedantry from our friend Cory Doctorow. From the episode Namer vs. Namer, you admonished a man not to copy Kurt Braunohler's comedy game show

because it might result in legal jeopardy. That's not true as a matter of law. The functional elements of a game, its rules, actually cannot be copyrighted. There may be a trademark question if the game is copied in a way that leads to confusion about its origin, but this can be easily laid to rest by saying this game was invented by so-and-so and he does not endorse my version of it. There's a tiny risk of patent infringement in the event that the game's functional elements rise to the standard of a patentable invention, which are novel, useful, not obvious to a skilled practitioner of the art,

which is very rare even in these days of absentee regulation from the U.S. Patent Office, where you can literally get a patent on a peanut butter sandwich and a method for pushing your kids on a swing. This is not to say that there's nothing wrong with taking someone else's games. That's a normative question within the realm of improv and performance, an area where Corey has next-to-no expertise. I, Corey, will happily stipulate

that within improv, games are a kind of pseudo-property that can't be copied without violating the norms of the group. Thus, copying a game may be douchey, but being douchey isn't against the law! It's an important distinction because there are other groups with other mores where this kind of taking is normal, like collectible card games where people build on one another's rule sets, so do role-playing games,

and the promulgation of misstatement that this taking is illegal can give rise to real harm by encouraging self-censorship in other creative fields. Far be it from me to contradict Cory Doctorow, one of the internet's great copyright

scholars and scolds. True on both counts. And I certainly would not want anyone to self-censor themselves for fear of legal action. The case in question, of course, was that a young person

was doing a live performance of a game show type comedy show in the style of Bunk, which had been a show hosted by Kurt Braunohler, and using one of the games that had been designed for that TV show, Bunk, as part of his show. And I agree with Corey that I certainly appreciate that that's not, that may not be a matter of copyright. It might be a matter of trademark. If the young person is using the name of the game as it was used in the TV

show. And I certainly agree with Corey that there's, you know, if the kid is on stage and said, this is inspired by the show bunk, but not endorsed by it. No, at the end of the day, no real harm is likely to come from it. But just because something is not necessarily a breach of law does not mean that a crazy person who had a TV show might not take offense and seek legal action.

That TV show may be owned by its creators or it may be owned by its network, and they may write you a letter, whether it's legal or not, to cease and desist. And I would just say that there's an easy way to protect yourself from both normative and legal harassment, which is to make up your own stuff. I think Corey would agree with me there. Make up your own stuff. It'll ultimately bring you farther than if you even do a legal homage to someone else. I'm not against homage. I'm not against pastiche. I'm not against any of that stuff. And I agree with Corey that this is probably not an issue of copyright. I don't understand the legality of this. All I know is that there are litigious people on television and you will do

better if you make up your own stuff. That's all I'm saying. Here's now stop licking my side of the cream cheese. I can't help it. Like it. Technically sort of doing your work for you, John. I just don't want his enzymes over on my side. Oh, come on.

All right. Go on, Jesse. Here's something from Jerry. My girlfriend makes fun of my pronunciation of the word A-U-N-T. I say it, aunt. She insists it's aunt, and insinuates that my pronunciation is part

of a regional drawl and makes me sound like an uneducated townie. I'm from Halifax, Nova Scotia. Please issue an order on this pronunciation. Aunt or aunt. We're new parents with a beautiful three-month-old daughter and need to know how to refer to her relatives. That's really interesting, you know, because this came up. I think it was Christine who made reference to her aunt, and I thought about it. You know, I grew up using both because my mom, as I mentioned, was from Philadelphia. She has five younger sisters who were always my aunts in Philadelphia.

And John Worcester, what would you say, aunt or aunt? I would say aunt. You would say aunt. Yes. But in Massachusetts, where my dad is from, Fitchburg, Massachusetts, I have an aunt, Linda, and a great aunt, Ines, and great aunt, Yolanda, who lived together on Frankfurt Road in Fitchburg in a house that was full of interesting things, figurines and such. So I often go, I feel like a man without a country because I often go back and forth between aunt and aunt. But there is no question that it is a regional distinction. But I don't think in the United States that there is a class distinction. If anything, I would imagine aunt would be considered by the snobs to be the more appropriate pronunciation, where aunt would be considered to be a more rural and country pronunciation.

That's just a guess, but I don't know how things go down in Nova Scotia. It's Backwardsville up there. It's Upside Downsland up there, I think is one of the provinces of Canada, upside down. When I was a kid in Philly, if I heard a friend say aunt, that kid would be dead. How many batteries would you throw at him? I would whip at least

probably four 9 volts, maybe like six D's. Yeah, that would would be a case that would be a strong case for a public batterying in the town square of philadelphia right put him in a tube sock and and whip it right in his face yeah because because why because he was a because he was a dumb hick no no or because he was a fancy boy? He's a fancy boy, and that doesn't fly in Philly, all right? Now, things might be different up in Nova Scotia, but I would say you say what you want, friend.

I'm looking at a heat map of the United States that's ordered by pronunciation of the word aunt or aunt. And it looks like the very northeastern most part of the country that is north of essentially north and east of New York City pronounce it as aunt. And generally speaking, the rest of the country pronounces it as Aunt, although there are a few regions, one in the lower mid-Atlantic, just above Tennessee there, and one in the upper Midwest, just, or the, I guess you, what's to the right of Montana? What's that? The Dakotas. In the Dakotas, you're looking at a situation where people say aunt to refer to the concept of aunt, but aunt to refer by name to their relative.

So you'd say, oh, yeah, I have an aunt, my Aunt Judy. Right. That's because those are discrete colonies of hardcore followers of Plato. So they refer to the platonic ideal of aunt, but the real world example of aunt. You got it. They also keep a lot of pet ants in the Dakota. In the Dakota. Also in North and South Dakota, they refer to it collectively as the Dakota. They do.

I know a lot about various regions, John. You do. How can I help? I can't help it. It's impressive. If I could get my hands out of this cream cheese, I would hold them up in a sort of like, I can't help it sort of way. But I can't. Well.

Or can't. You can't. See, now I gotta, as soon as I get out of here, I gotta whip a bunch of D batteries at you. Our fates are sealed in cream cheese. They are. Thank you very much, John Worcester, for joining us. Is there anything coming up that you would like to mention to people who listen to podcasts?

What's going on? Um, new Bob Mould album coming out in June. Wow. And you drummed on it, I presume? I'm the drummer in the Bob Mould album coming out in June. Wow. And you drummed, and you drummed on it. I presume I'm the drummer in the Bob Mould band. All right. And,

merge records. Uh, the label that, is associated with super chunk turns 25 this summer. We're having a big, uh, big festival down here in Chapel Hill. Where in Philadelphia or in Chapel?

In Chapel Hill, North Carolina. When is that? I believe it's the last week of July. Ooh, nice. Yes. I'll come down if I can. Please do. And Tom Sharpling and I are trying to figure out what to do with the best show.

We're working on some plans and hopefully we'll have news soon. We all look forward to it. Thank you. Bad news. Any news from you is something that I look forward to. Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you. Unless it comes in the form of a nine volt battery to my eye.

What about the cream cheese calf rub I'm about to give you? I knew that this was going to happen i know it'll be fun come on it'll be far yeah you know what it's it's been a while why not i deserve it you do jesse thorne what do you have going on oh gosh is there some is there some kind of festival coming up some kind of make it yourself yeah exactly i've just conference i've just announced make your thing which is uh a project Is there some kind of festival coming up, some kind of make-it-yourself conference? Yeah, exactly. I've just announced Make Your Thing, which is a project that we're trying to put together, a big conference here in Los Angeles for DIY creatives, you know, writers, musicians, bloggers, video and audio producers, etc., etc. And we have a really amazing lineup of presenters, and we have a really amazing place to do it. And we just now need to sell enough tickets to make it happen.

So you can go to makeyourthing.la to watch a little video about it and buy a ticket if you are so inclined. We have all of 30 days to sell enough tickets for our Kickstarter. And I think I just saw on Twitter that a friend of this show and the late lamented best show until whatever happens in the future, Chris Gethard will be part of the Make Your Thing Festival. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. Among many others.

I mean, our friend Merlin Mann will be there. Kate Beaton, the web comics artist. John Vanderslice. Oh, Harka Vagrant? Vernon Reed. Yeah, Harka Vagrant. Vernon Reed, listener to this podcast and H.P. Lovecraft. What's the word I'm looking for?

Enthusiast? He's probably best known as a member of Living Color. But yeah, sure. Those things, too. That was an H.P. Lovecraft tribute band, right? Yes, it was, essentially. Jane Espenson, our friend Jane Espenson, the co-creator of the web series Husbands,

along with her co-creator Brad Bell. Who what, put words in my mouth to speak on Battlestar Galactica? Oh, that's the very one. How about, gosh, how about Colt Cabana? He's an independent professional wrestler. I've never heard of him, but that sounds awesome. Yeah, he's great. There's a whole bunch of really wonderful people coming to this thing.

You can find out everything about it at makeyourthing.la. And if you want, if you are in another country, and I know that there are some of you out there, and you have been hearing me talk about these ragnarok survival kits which contain the only pressing of uh on dvd of my uh special ragnarok filmed last year when i thought it was going to be the end of the world or i should say in 2012 i thought it was going to be into the world uh and now weirdly prescient as a new ragnarok has been announced on february 22nd the official is is by some reckonings the official date of the norse ragnarok from which the term is borrowed and you would also this thing also includes a survival mayonnaise a urine flask a thumb drive containing my consciousness and a really beautiful smelling non-joke unisex cologne

by me on a hard shell survival case. You've been hearing about these things and wondering, I don't want to spend all the money to ship it to my foreign country, whether that be Halifax, Nova Scotia, or the Northwest Territories of Australia. Well, listen to me. Due to agitation by Canadians, especially, we went back and we talked to the shipper and we have negotiated a flat rate shipping price to anywhere else in the world of $42, which is a pretty good deal. We would have had it lower, but apparently the cologne is flammable. And so there are certain insurances that have to be purchased. But so if you have held off

from ordering one of the last few of the 500 Ragnarok survival kits that exist in the world, because you live in another country, this might be a time that you would want to type into your web browser, bit.ly slash survive Ragnarok that is

survive then the word ragnarok r-a-g-n-a-r-o-k okay as in okay i'm going to do it except in your language in canada or wherever you are other than that you can go to johnhodgman.com and see all of my forthcoming tour dates and announcements you can sign up for my newsletter by going to bit.ly slash hodgemail h-o-d-g-m-a-i-l uh and uh one announcement is that i will be doing a a relaunching of my i stole your dad show which played at the public theater at largo in may right before maxFunCon. I look forward to seeing you virtually or in real life in the future. Our producer is Julia Smith.

The show is edited by Mark McConville. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, by all means, send it to us. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho and you will find all the information on how to do so there. This week's case was named for us by Keith VanderWaal. Our thanks to Keith

and if you want to name a future Judge John Hodgman episode, like us on Facebook. Just search for Judge John Hodgman there or follow us on Twitter. Hodgman is at Hodgman there, or follow us on Twitter. Hodgman is at Hodgman, H-O-D-G-M-A-N. I'm at Jesse Thorne, J-E-S-S-E-T-H-O-R-N. And special thanks to our expert witness, John Worster, who may be found online where? Oh, well, I have a Twitter profile at John Worcester.

You can order Sharpling and Worcester products at stereolabs.com. S-T-E-R-E-O-L-A-F-F-S dot com. And at John Worcester is your Twitter handle. That's J-O-N-W-U-R-S-T-E-R, correct? Oh, they already know that. Oh, gosh, I'm sorry. I'm kidding. Yes, that's correct. I was know that. Oh, gosh, I'm sorry. I'm kidding. Yes, that's correct.

I was just distracted by the calf fumbling I'm getting right now. I'm very good at it, right? Yeah, I should never have doubted you. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Goodbye forever to humans. No, see you next time on Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org.

Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at forum.maximumfund.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online and

next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximumfund.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.