Judge John Hodgman - A Turning Client Privilege

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

Does GPS turn our brains to mush? Kris says yes! But her son, Ethan, wants her to start using it! Who's right? Who's wrong?  Judge John Hodgman: Road Court! Tickets are on sale NOW! For dates and more information, go to maximumfun.org/events.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorn. This week, a turning client privilege. Ethan brings the case against his mom, Chris. Chris doesn't like to use GPS when she's driving. She says driving without it is better exercise for her brain. But Ethan says that when she needs directions, she calls him. He doesn't want to be her personal navigation device. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. My daughter and I were visiting a college in Bangor, Maine. After a nice trip, we had our GPS take us back to the car rental agency, except it just didn't seem like it was taking us the right way. We were in the middle of nowhere,

and the GPS said, "'You have arrived at your destination.'" We had pulled up to a graveyard. We did end up having a pleasant walk around a beautiful cemetery, however. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Ethan and Chris, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,

and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's never lost? I do. I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. That one was like a complimentary one. I liked it. I liked it.

Not all who wander are lost, as they say in the Lord of the Rings. Yeah, or on bumper stickers in Berkeley. That's right. I'm never lost because I'm never going anywhere. Indeed, Judge Hodgman, visualize world peace. I've got it right there in my brain. Let the folks listening to the podcast go over to YouTube

to see me pointing at my little brain. What if the Army had to have a bake sale, Judge Hodgman? I wish I remembered a bumper sticker right now. Oh, I do remember one. It says w-e-r-u dot org. That's where I'm at. Bumper sticker central here in Orland, Maine, as well as a solar powered community radio station where we're broadcasting.

And we're here with our summertime engineer and operations and programming director here at WRU, Joel the main man man, right Joel? That's right, Judge. Joel, you know, I had a hot dog from the gas station today. How was it? I enhanced the experience. Before eating it, I accidentally poured gasoline on my hands.

Didn't eat any mustard then I guess. No, no, it was very spicy. Okay, Ethan and Chris, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom? Ethan, you're here with your mom, Chris. I've got to give it to Chris first. Chris, what's your guess?

So my guess is the 2010 movie GPS, starring Rob Carbone, inspired by Alfred Hitchcock's Light Boat. Wow. Whoa. That's an incredible guess. Would you repeat the title of that? Just GPS. GPS.

That's a movie. I didn't think of that. GPS movie, GPS the movie, GPS movie. I don't think it's called GPS the movie. I don't think they like licensed it from the satellites. And now Ethan, do you have a sincere guess? I do have a sincere guess. Given the main reference,

I'm going to go with one of your books and that I can't get, but I'm gonna try medallion status. The one that is least about Maine. Shoot. That's all right, flattery will get you everywhere, except erect. You all guesses are wrong. I bet you weren't expecting me to quote Alan Willett,

were you? And you probably don't know who Alan Willett is, and that's because I don't either. I know he's from New York, and I know that this GPS gone wrong story was quoted among several GPS gone wrong stories on the on Geico.com's online magazine, Living Geico. Which I didn't know existed. Or Geico Living perhaps? I don't know. It's living.geico.com. Slash home slash technology slash Oh, the wacky places you'll go with your GPS. That is the URL. If you want to look it up and verify that I'm quoting that I did

change the order of things because Alan Willett as as great a dad as he probably is for taking his daughter on a college tour to Bangor, Maine. He did. He did. He's not a natural storyteller. He should have ended with the graveyard, but he buried or he didn't bury the lead. He kind of foisted in the middle. He stuffed the lead in the middle of the story. Anyway, he failed to bury the graveyard lead. Yeah, exactly. He failed to. He failed to bury the graveyard climax of that horrifying story of a GPS. Appropriately in Maine, taking you to a graveyard instead of the Bangor International Airport,

which is where I presume they were headed. All right, let's get into it. Who brings this case against his mother to me? Is it you, Ethan? Yes. What kind of son are you, Ethan? What does your mom do that's so annoying that you would bring her onto a podcast? Well, it's more what she, well, doesn't do first is she doesn't use GPS. But more importantly, when she doesn't use GPS, when she's traveling to places that she is less familiar with.

And what happens when she does this? When she inevitably gets lost or is running late, we'll call one of us, my siblings, to talk through what's the remainder of the instructions and then we have to help her. How many siblings do you have? I have four siblings. You're one of five? Yeah. Oh, and she calls one of you every time she gets lost?

Well, whoever she's meeting, usually. What a burden to help your mom out. Well, whoever she's meeting, usually. So what a burden to help your mom out. Thank you. You're welcome, Chris. Why won't you use the GPS? So I don't use GPS, not that I haven't. I have experienced the Garmin back in the Garmin days.

I've used that. But I am old enough to be in the generations of where you didn't have that technology. It was back in the day when you were going to direct somebody to something you kind of like when Sven is directing a passerby to Olli and Lina's farmstead, he would say, well, yeah, you go down the road 10 miles or so, and you'll go around four or five curves, and then you will get down a big hill, and then you'll go up another hill, and then you'll get down to what's a pasture,

and usually, Ole has a couple cows out there, and if you see the cows, then you know that you've gotten to Ole and Lena's house. Have you ever considered recording a regional humor record album and going on tour? You know, Todd Berry tours Northern Europe. I think we've got another candidate.

I really, I want to hear the whole Lena directions character for a long, longer than I heard it this then. This is some top notch mom humor, some top top notch momery in general. Ethan, I don't understand. What's the complaint? How did this conflict start?

Well, there was one kind of precipitating incident that I can talk about, but generally this lies on two big arguments. Can you talk about it or did you sign an NDA? I'm wiggly loud. My brother-in-law allows me to talk about it. OK, good. But my bigger case rests on two arguments, safety

and planning and time. Wait a minute, what was the inciting incident? We were meeting my mom who was watching our daughters for a few days. You and your brother-in-law, you both have kids and your mom was watching them for a few days. Go on. That's correct.

And we were all going to meet in kind of the perfect central city that's kind of equidistant between all of us, Dubuque, Iowa. Dubuque, Iowa, also known as the perfect central city. The perfect central city. And we were planning to meet and we are all leaving. Scott, my brother-in-law was going to leave a little earlier because he's coming from Milwaukee so a longer drive and we were of course Scott arrived of course I arrived and then usually how it goes there's about at least 30 minutes to wait on the other wrist yes and and she then while we're waiting we Scott and I find a spot to meet we found a brewery

there in Dubuque and said okay why don't you plan to meet us here? And we get a call and it's first I get a call from my mom and she says, so I'm about to come into town here. Tell me again, what exit do I take? And I have no idea. She's coming into a different side of the town. And so I said that explicitly. I said, I don't know. I gave you where we're meeting.

I don't know how to get you to where you're at, too. Did you remind her of Dubuque's famous motto, Dubuque, the town that has two sides? LAUGHS And so then it progresses to Scott pulling up his GPS and then taking the phone from me and then navigating my mom to this brewery through the phone looking at his GPS and she would be calling out what intersection she had met and he would say, okay, so your next intersection, take a right.

And so she'd go, okay, and she says, now I'm taking a right. And then he would call out, okay, in three blocks, I need you to take a left. And it went like that until he got her directed to us. Jesse Thorne, are you familiar with the cinematic concept of the guy in the chair? No, I'm not. That's when the hero is in contact with a guy in a chair in a dark room somewhere who's got 17 computers open and it's telling him or her or them what to do.

Like, okay, next you're gonna go this way and now you gotta go up and now you gotta climb down. I just watched Mission Impossible. What's really special about that film is that there's two guys in a chair. In one chair. Yeah. Like that internet video, that was so controversial.

They had Ving Rhames, but they wanted to bring in Simon Pegg. Yeah, why not? If you could get both Ving Rhames and Simon Pegg, why wouldn't you? Sounds like it was fun. What was your concern that your mom was driving distractedly with her children in your car? I think that's the biggest, you know, piece of this. And it's not just our children. I love my mom and I want her to

be safe. And when she is relying on clear some confusion about where she's at or where her navigation, that concerns me, right? And she has her printout maps, but she's holding those up and those can be distracting. I would refer, she just have her GPS that's telling her when she needs to take her turn so she can focus on the cars and the pedestrians and the road. Okay. So Ethan, let me ask you, let me put it to you this way. So obviously your mom and your respective children reached you safely at the brewery

and everyone had a nice beer and toasted to the success that you had at that point, right? Sure, yeah. Is that the worst thing that has happened so far with your mom refusing to use the GBS? I would say that is one of the more comical pieces of this. Right? The lateness piece and the getting lost piece adds up quite a bit.

Yeah, Chris, what's what went wrong and what's your side of the story? Well, thank you. So the day of the incident, July 26, 2023, I had had these three girls, six, five, and almost three with me for two days. Okay? This is a picture of me driving. Well, we're stopped. Just let it be known I took this picture while I was stopped while I was on the road.

And let it also be known that you're just a simple country lawyer. For those of you who are listening to the podcast rather than watching this on YouTube, And let it also be known that you're just a simple country lawyer. For those of you who are listening to the podcast, rather than watching this on YouTube, I must break in to say, Chris has come with her own visual aids. And just like she will print out a map rather than look at it on a phone, instead of sending us digital images, she has not only printed out the images, but seems to have put them and mounted them on poster board, which is really fantastic. She's indicating them with a pointer device. I wish I had like one of those red laser things,

and I could have showed each of the girls and named them. But anyway, so Dubuque, Iowa was where we were going to meet. But when my last one, my actual couple of conversations with Ethan, he yet did not know where we were going to meet in Dubuque. We knew we were going to Dubuque. It's kind of like when you get invited to a wedding and you know that you're going to Minneapolis,

but you forget to look where the church is located or where you're going. And so anyway, so this was- Or in this case, the church hadn't even been, you'd gotten to save the date card as it were. Exactly. But the formal invitation telling you where exactly to go had not only not been sent, but not even been decided. Yes. And so I have a place, a business in Prairie de Chine, Wisconsin, and that's about an hour

north of Dubuque. And so I know how to get to Dubuque, but I yet did not know where we were going to be meeting. And I had these three little girls with me. I had an opportunity to be able to print out the map, the directions to Seven Hills Brewing Company in Dubuque had I known where we were going. So this is a copy of that map that would have given me explicit detailed directions to that brewery had I had time to print them out. But I did not because I did not know where I was going.

And I will remind you that I had three little girls in the back seat that can be a distraction, whether I'm looking at printed printouts or a GPS on or a Garmin or whatever we have. You're saying the only thing that could have cut through the stimulation and the visual and audio clutter of those girls and everything else would be the comforting sound of your son or son-in-law telling you how to go. Chris, what was your plan when you departed? Was your plan to stop at a gas station and ask for directions? Or did you always expect that when you got to Dubuque,

you would ask your son-in-law to do the GPSing for you? Well, I'm going to address your gas station remark first, because I actually have that on my list of what used to be. It used to be when we travel, you did stop at a gas station and ask them, well, where is the school? Where is that church? But now, and they would tell you, they would know. Now you'd stop and ask that and they would look at you like, huh? You're let down by humanity in general.

A little bit. But it all goes back to this brainwash. at you like, huh? You're let down by humanity in general. Is that correct, Chris? A little bit. But it all goes back to the brain wash. You have this wild theory that for some reason we've all become idiots because we've become addicted to our phones. And I won't say all. It's almost like there's a massive social engineering

time bomb that got set off when smartphones were introduced that no one knew what was going to happen. And instead, we've all become wild addicts and we can't drive properly and we can't talk to each other properly. It's making all of our teenagers engage in horrible bouts of crisis of loneliness and self-loathing. It's a bad situation.

Wouldn't you say, Chris? Yes, and you could be on my panel when I write my book, when I go on my book tour. Then I will have you be on my panel because you explained it actually beautifully. I'm sorry. I'm going to be too busy playing the New York Times spelling bee. I love every story that you have to tell, Chris. But we do need to reach our destination here, which is for me to determine what should happen next, which direction we're going to go in with this GPS thing here. And I do need to ask some questions. One, when you were calling Ethan and his brother-in-law, your son-in-law, at the brewery, were you holding your phone

or were you using hands-free mode? Holding. Chris. I know. What are you doing to me here? You know I want to find in favor of a mom. You're holding your phone up to your head. You got three kids in the back.

I sure do. You showed me a picture of them. They're really cute. They are. Ethan. Ethan. Yes? Do I understand this correctly? You said we're going to meet in Dubuque because it's well known as the best meeting place.

But you didn't decide on the final destination of this brewery until after your mom was already on the road. Is that correct? That is correct. Scott was already on the road when I called mom and we discussed that we hadn't heard from him. So once I got a hold of him and met him in Dubuque, I'd let him know where we convened at. How does it make you feel when you hear that your mom was not only calling you for directions,

but actually holding the phone to her head while she was doing it? I have to be honest here and that did not immediately come to mind. Now, you're now that you're learning it for the first time, how do you feel? I am okay with that. Why? Chris, do I understand correctly that you are not hands-free, you are hands-full of phone? Yes or no? That is correct. I will answer yes to that, yes. But what I wanna say is, why is that different than picking up my water cup or a Big Mac I picked up at the drive-through?

Well, I think that it is pretty dangerous. It's all distracting. Well, sure. Well, I do think it's pretty dangerous to eat a hamburger in your car. And while I have done it, including most recently, while driving in Maine, I discovered that I became the Big Mac. So much of that Big

Mac fell all over my clothing. Yeah, lettuce all over. I bet you driving is different in Iowa though. I bet you there's a lot of straight shots. It depends on which side of Iowa you're on. The west side is a lot straighter. The northeast side where we live has more hills and curves and such. What's it like around Dubuque? I want to know. The road that I was on, for the most part, was straight.

So going from Prairie to Dubuque was a straight shot. Plus, depending on what side you're on, you use a different exit. Ethan, our producer, Jennifer Marmers, says that she received an email from you describing one of the times when you were waiting for your mom, in which you claimed that your mom had accidentally gotten on a scenic route

and that she had to drive around for a while in search of a McDonald's. What was happening in that situation? Sure. So I'm going to focus on the McDonald's piece. And that is, it was another time that we were meeting. My mom was driving back with my daughter after being in Milwaukee and we were going to meet. And I arrived on time to our planned destination and she informed me that they were running late

because one, she had gotten onto a, had accidentally gotten onto a quote, scenic route, which I don't know what that quite means. But then more importantly, they had to drive around in search of a McDonald's. And this gets back to GPS. Had she just stopped, put McDonald's in her GPS, she would have found that right away and got their food and then continued on and probably been more on time. Chris, you needed to find a McDonald's so you could get two Big Macs to eat with both of your hands while you drove with your niece.

I was buying Zoe, his daughter, some chicken nuggets and fries and a milk for our ride home. And yes, I told him scenic route because I knew he gave me a hard time if I said I was lost, but I was not lost and this is what happened. I was recalculating. So I was familiar with the area to a certain extent because our daughter Brooke, that's where we were, was at our daughter Brooke in Milwaukee. And I knew there was a McDonald's a short distance on the road that I'd been on before to go to some of the other stores in that area.

That was the scenic route that I had told him I was on, but it was not because I was lost, per se. I just wasn't on the right path yet. To be fair, you specifically said you were lost at the beginning of that story. I did? Yeah, you did. Could you play that bad for me?

But when you used the term scenic route, you were referring mostly to, it was more of a euphemism for, you got off your regular track. It wasn't like a literal national seashore or something. Right. John, I have to tell you, this whole case has given me the heebie-jeebies.

I'll tell you why. Welcome. I don't want you to have the heebie-jeebies. One of the last times that my father came to visit me in Southern California, my father in the years of his, in the later years of his life had, let's say reduced mental acuity. I did not realize the extent to which he had until he liked, he had lived his teenage years in Glendale, California,

which is not very far from where I live. And he liked to he had lived his teenage years in Glendale, California, which is not very far from where I live. And he liked to come visit us and stay in a motel in Glendale. That was like his greatest passion was to stay in a motel in Glendale. And he was like, I know the territory and he refused to use the GPS.

Well, in Iowa, certainly. But in Glendale, he did know the territory. And so he would come, he'd stay in this motel and he'd drive down and visit us. He'd rent a car. And this one particular time, the last time he came to visit us, he was at the motel. He called us on his cell phone. He said, I'm going to come visit. It was like 11 o'clock in the morning.

And then he showed up at our door, 15 or so minutes away, four hours later. And during that time we were calling him and receiving no response, calling my stepmother in San Francisco, asking if she'd heard from him. We were terrified. It turned out that he just hadn't noticed

that he was driving around in circles that whole time. And when he got there, he said, Oh, I'm sorry, my phone went under the passenger seat and I couldn't reach it. And so all these stories to me just sound like my dad saying, Oh, I'm sorry, my phone went under the passenger seat and I couldn't reach it. Well, he just drives around various Southern California

freeways for four hours. Looking for something familiar? Yeah, looking for something familiar and being unbothered by the whole thing. Yeah. Ethan, your mom raises a good point, which is that the GPS is not always reliable. I think we all have a story about a time that we were taken somewhere by the GPS that we

shouldn't have gone to. Do you think that, do you worry that your mom might get misdirected by GPS if I were to order her to use it? I don't for a couple of reasons. One, I know inevitably she would always still have her handy maps in the back as a backup. Right. Right. Which she can read while driving and steering with her knees.

Exactly. She can always pull over, check out her maps, get re-situated. Would she though? Would she pull over? That's my concern. That's a good question. I do think she has a good navigation sense about her as well. So I do think that she can lean on all of these skills.

And I want to get back to losing our mental faculties if we're using GPS, for example. I don't think that would apply to my mom in this sense. In fact, I think where if she wants to exercise her brain, it would actually be learning how to use GPS and plugging it into our system and Entering you anticipate my next question, which was do you think that she is capable? I mean, you know that your mom has a resistance to using the smartphone at all because people might be listening and as well She doesn't want to plug it in to use the hands-free feature. Do you think that she can? Get that GPS working

on her car without some help? I think I could assist her with getting the initial setup and absolutely she has the capacity to utilize GPS. She might say she doesn't so that you rule in her favor but absolutely she does. And yet Ethan you use GPS do you not? I do. So, your brain is already mush. How could you help your mom? Yes, Chris, go ahead. That was kind of one of my points. That your son's brain is mush? We have a daughter that lives in the Milwaukee area.

We have a son that lives up in Baraboo, Wisconsin. Ethan lives in Milwaukee area. We have a son lives up in Baraboo, Wisconsin. Ethan lives in Iowa city. Well, we have one son that lives in London, but I can't drive there. So I'm only using these three as examples right now. I do drive. We do not need a GPS to triangulate where your whole family is.

Ethan, you and your siblings just got doxed. I can drive to each one of those three that I mentioned without any map, without any, and I would like to challenge or at least ask if Ethan and the other siblings could all do that without any kind of guidance, map or otherwise. I don't use a map either. I go there now because I have looked the first time I would have went with a map,, I don't use a map either. I go there now because I have looked the first time I would have went with a map, but I don't have to do that anymore.

And I drive in pretty packed areas, you know, a lot of roads. And back to the point of, can she do it? I'm a little insulted by that, but you guys wouldn't know my background. I've had a photo lab for 20 years. I printed pictures. I've dealt with technology. I deal with everybody's now phone.

They come in, the old, I mean, you think I'm the lady that can't do it. I'm the lady that gets their pictures off. I'm the lady that gets them. So I can do technology. I can take advantage of it. I can print things out. I will utilize the technology. Yes.

I just don't want to depend on it. You printed out maps in 2004. Yeah. Judge Hodgman, she's familiar with technology. Thank you. She sells phonograph records for a living. Well, no, I mean, I got to give you credit, Chris, because, you know, if you've run a

photo lab for 20 years, then you definitely have adapted to and seen your whole professional world transformed by technology. Thank you. Which would go to motive why you hate phones so much. Ethan, your mom has laid down a gauntlet, which is she believes that you could not drive to her home without the aid of a GPS. Do you accept that challenge? Yes or no?

He can drive to my house. That's not the, it's the ones that are in the city type areas. It's can Josh drive to Iowa city without a GPS? Can Brooke, can Ethan drive to Brooks in Milwaukee without a GPS? Can Ethan drive to Brooks in Milwaukee without a GPS? Ethan, can you drive to Milwaukee without a GPS? I would not be able to drive to my sisters without a GPS. There we go.

Brain mush, that's all I needed to hear. Your Honor. Yes? I drive to my sisters in Milwaukee far less often than my mom. That's not true. And two, I would refuse to because it updates for things like construction that often always, but not often always, often make her late. Well that's a good point, Ethan. You know, Chris, those maps that you printed out in 2004 probably should go into the shredder

at this point because they're not valid. Well, yeah, I just bought it last night. It was last minute evidence that disappeared last night. I must have been just driven to go to open that file cabinet and there that was, but I just, I chuckled a little bit. Very serendipitous. Yeah. Well, I mean, but it's true that GPS can provide real-time information about construction, traffic stops, traffic slowdowns, and other things like that. Oh, she's holding her hand up telling me she's got a response to that too and pulling out a printout.

My mangle mustache media directions in line number seven. It says, take the ramp on the left for US 20 East and head toward Dubuque. In red print underneath, it says, lane closed on US 20 East from Iowa 282 blah blah blah blah blah and lane closed going the other direction. And there it is right there. So it, I printed this out. You printed out updated information. Yes, yes. And did you, and did, and you, we started on time today. So Ethan, Mango Mustache Media, can either of you confirm that Chris showed up when expected?

She did show up on time today. I was here before he was. Well, that could have just been out of spite, ma'am. Well, I was getting a little nervous because I did miss the one turn. It was kind of set back here. So I did have a little panic mode, but I found it. But I, in regards to kind of something also with this, and that can go back to when my husband was working yet, he traveled and, and would go into, he was buying grain from

farmers. Okay. So the farmer says, where are you now? Mark says, I don't know, I'm just following the GPS. But this would come after he's driving around trying to find him. He calls the farmer, the farmer wants to give him the old fashioned directions of where he's supposed to go,

but Mark would ignore it, totally ignore it. He would not even listen because he had the GPS. But then in the end, he had to call the farmer to get directions because the GPS would never get him to where he needed to go. Ethan, you wanted to say something? Just to note that my dad to this day still uses GPS when he travels.

Oh, your own husband is brain mushed, Chris? He is. Definitely. What do you think about Chris's brain mush? Actually, he's admitted himself and really with what I just said on that first one when the farmer said, where are you now? And he said, I don't know, I just found the GPS. And he literally told me that he said at those moments, he had no idea what road he had been on.

He had no idea at all, even what he had even been by. And this would lead me up to what our daughter just sent on Saturday of this last weekend. They had been up in Michigan on their way home. And she said, quote, Mom, you'll be very proud of us. Scott wanted coffee on our way back from Michigan, but I didn't feel like looking for a shop on my phone.

Eventually we saw a sign that took him right to a delicious coffee shop. So my point being is that sometimes we miss, we don't know where we've been, we don't know where we're going, we don't even see what's around us. You know, there's a lot of stuff that people miss. So I think that can enter into the brain.

Until you get lost, you don't know what you're missing, is what you're saying. Like you could miss out on a really nice coffee shop or you could get stuck in the middle of a meadow and a masked killer is there. You never know what you might be missing. That is true. She brought my sister you might be missing. That is true. She brought my sister into this, Your Honor.

All right. I said, Brooke, should mom use GPS? She responded, yes. Wow. A full quotation. From memory, by the way. I'll note that you don't have any printouts, Ethan. That's a quotation from memory. That's on my phone. He just read from his phone.

Of course. Is there, you have five children. Is that right, Chris? Is there a number of child votes in favor of GPS that you would accept and change your ways? If they all five voted to that you needed to start using GPS, would you listen to them then? Or would you say that the election was rigged?

I don't know if I would actually. You wouldn't listen because they're all a bunch of brain machines. I would continue to do this. I mean, I would probably do it in an emergency situation where I had to, but because I know most of the places where I go. I mean, that's the thing. I can drive to them and and Be at Ethan's Crosby Lane. I can go there Ethan. How long do you use when your mom is late?

What percentage of the time would you say your mom is late to meet you? 80% what 80% of the time and when your mom is late, how long are you usually waiting roughly speaking? It can go as an average from 10 minutes to an hour. I'll be generous there. And would you say, and if you were to text Brooke right now, would you say that her experience is the same? Yes. And your other three siblings, same deal?

Two I can't speak to, but one who would be the other person she referenced driving to has also said yes. Has also said 80% of the time late from 10 minutes to an hour. Yeah, maybe not those specific stats, but the general premise. Now, I don't have the transcript in front of me, so this is all off my memory,

but when you said your mom is late 80% of the time, Chris, I believe you said your mom is late 80% of the time, Chris, I believe you said, what? Would you care to explain your reaction? Do you think that that is an exaggeration? I do think it's an exaggeration. And the last time I was at Brooks, I believe it was the last time I was at Brooks, I got there before they got home.

Anecdotal evidence, ma'am. That's one point of data. If not 80% of the time, what percentage of the time would you say you are late? I don't even comprehend that it can get to that number. I mean, I'm just like, I will admit years ago that I could have been, they would have accused me of being late. I don't think it's so much now, but I used to be when the kids were little, we had five kids. And that was back in the day when I'm the one that got five kids and a husband and myself ready to go someplace. Right. I would always be at the birthday party. I would be at whatever we were

going. I get them to the church on time. So what you're saying is what you're saying is that Ethan is wronged into brain mush. You are not late 80% of the time, but if you were, hypothetically you deserved it because you used to get them to where they needed to go on time. It was a real hassle. So I was getting accused of that all the time. So finally I was just like, well, okay then. And so if I can't beat them, join them, and they don't believe me, I'll just be late.

So I will admit that years ago, but I don't really believe it's current. So you're saying, again, to summarize, that you're not late. You used to be late years ago, but because you got a reputation for being late, you now don't care. So you are late. I always was on time years ago. Then it, I guess started getting accused of being late. And so then I just like, okay, I guess I'll be late then. Ethan, between you and your mom, whose brain is mushier? I would say mine. That's the smart answer.

I would say mine. That's the smart answer. That's the non mushy answer. That's the sharp answer. Yeah. For folks who aren't watching on YouTube, there are currently lasers coming out of your mother's eyes. I have a question for you, Chris. Let me just make sure back up for a second here.

Beep, beep, beep. Okay. As you're coming into Dubuque, the town that has two sides, the town that everybody knows, and you're realizing, oh, I don't know the way to get to this brewery, you call up your son-in-law and you tell him to open up his GPS to guide you in, correct? I did not give him that instruction. I said, am I on the right side?

I told him where I had turned, thinking I knew the general area of where this was. I knew it was going to be right as I came into Dubuque. It wasn't going to be hard, although it is hard when you have one ways and you have this and that and all that. So I was actually, even my initial exit that I took was on the correct side that the brewery was, but I drove around there a little bit. I had called Ethan and said, is it here?

I was naming the buildings that were around it. Well, you did not instruct them to go to the nearest gas station and ask directions and or buy an atlas and gas at T. I couldn't even find a gas station or I would have stopped. You let your son and son-in-law's brains turn to mush so that you could reach the brewery. Yes or no, ma'am? Yes.

Thank you. I don't know why I'm being the prosecutor in this situation. Just answer the question. Yeah. Ethan, your mom is taking care of your kids. Who cares if she's a little late? She's doing you a favor. I bring it back to also the safety discussion. I would prefer that she has that GPS so that again, it can update, it can keep her out

of high risk areas, including congestion or accidents. Is it just a thing that people are driving around with their phones to their head in Iowa that this isn't upsetting you more, Ethan? I might be just in you. Well, it's my mom. Slightly guilty as well. I don't, but I also, I haven't, I admit I have not given that much thought.

Chris, when talking to our producer Jennifer Marmer, you said that you appreciate Ethan's desire for an estimated time of arrival, but, quote, it's refreshing to have mystery, unquote. Do you remember saying those words? I've, I know I say it. So yeah. Tell me what that means.

It's, it kind of goes along with this whole missing out on the world, going on a vacation and kids look at movies the whole way. And I, I, I'm not ever going to say that there isn't a time when that is good because I've done it myself. I put my kids in front of the tv when they were little in cartoons and then I could get the house cleaned. So I know there's times but we also have a lot going by in the world that I think people miss because or that we are so controlling. We're so controlling by that GPS telling us

we're gonna be there right at that time. One of the things that you say that Ethan misses out on is nice conversations with his own mom when she needs help arriving at the brewery. How would you describe the nature of the phone call as he's guiding you in, or he and his brother-in-law are guiding you in? Is it a fun conversation?

No, because I mean, I could sense the frustration, but I would take myself out of the, replace the mom with the old lady trying to cross the street. And how would they talk to the old lady crossing the street that is maybe lost, wants to know where to go? Are you gonna say, well, I know they have walking GPS, ma'am. You could get your phone and guide yourself home. Why do you need me? But they would talk to her a lot differently.

Are you familiar with the apples and oranges metaphor? Apples and oranges is a metaphor used to describe two things that are basically the same, because apples and oranges are both delicious hand fruit. But what you're talking about here is opposites, apples and carrots, non-comparables. If your son and son-in-law were guiding an old lady across the street using GPS, yelling at her as she's trying to reach the brewery just across the street,

or if they were yelling at her like, just use your phone, ma'am. Now, one comparison would be if they got a random call from a little old lady who's like, I can't find the brewery. Can you help me please? I don't know how to use my GPS. Probably they would not be frustrated. Probably they'd be worried about being scammed somehow. But I see what you're saying.

Okay. Ethan, you want me to order your mom to use a GPS in the car, correct? Correct. Brooke wants me to order your mom to use the GPS in the car, correct? Correct. Brooke wants me to order your mom to use the GPS in the car, correct? Correct. Your third sibling that you can speak for also would like me to order that your mom use the GPS in the car, correct? Correct. That's 60%. That's definitely a majority of the children want you to use a GPS in your car, mom. What would you have me rule

if I were to rule in your favor, Chris? They should buzz off and mind their own business. Oh, no, I would like each of the kids to carry a road Atlas in their car and think of me. Well, I'll definitely order that before I even go into my chambers. But now I am going to go into my summer chambers here at w eru.org in Orland, Maine, and I will I mean, you know what, I'm actually going to go out into my car, Joel. That's a good place for me to think it over. Okay. Okay. So make sure you let me back into the station. I'll be back in a moment. My verdict, please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Chris, how

are you feeling about your chances in this case? Chris, how are you feeling about your chances in this case? Pretty good. I do feel like I've entered a lot of good stuff that is helping. Chris, I promise you, no one is questioning the volume of your printouts. Okay, so yeah, I feel pretty good. The pressure of the kids that want it is, you know, it's like, well, maybe, maybe it'll go the other way. Ethan, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling good as well. I feel like I stuck to the two points on safety and time or planning. And we have a precedent in this court about not creating inconveniences for others. Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman says after he finishes recalculating in just a moment. BANG, BANG, BANG. BANG, BANG, BANG. It's time for a tour, my friends. With a capital T that rhymes with P, that stands for podcast.

I can't wait to hit the road. The Judge John Hodgman Road Court coming to a town near you. If the town near you is New York or Philadelphia, Washington, D.C. But hang on. Record scratch. Hit the brakes. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Sold out. Ann Arbor, Michigan sold out. We still got shows and tickets available, but they're going fast in Madison, St. Paul, Burlington, Portland, Furnace Falls, Massachusetts, Brooklyn, Massachusetts, Vancouver, Seattle,

and Portland, Oregon, plus Los Angeles and San Francisco SketchFest. But I'm telling you, when you're hearing this now, it's late in August. But when we're recording it, it's early in August and already shows are selling out So it's imperative I dare say you go ahead over to maximum fun org slash events to get your tickets to join us In the road court. It's gonna be a lot of fun. It's a whole big show We don't just sit at a table and do a podcast. We stand up in wonderful costumes. We sing we dance for you We have special guests. We have all kinds of surprises and we feature brand new, never before heard cases from people in your town right there up on stage. And you get to hear things and

see things that you don't even get to hear or see when we broadcast live podcast later on the feed. There's stuff that happens that is known only to those audience members. And I want those audience members to be you. So don't delay pull over your car. Now get out your phone, go to maxmanfun.org slash events and get those tickets now. Right around the corner, John, New York city, September 11th, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, September 13th and September 14th in Washington, DC. As of this recording, not quite sold out,

but filling up fast. So don't delay, go get your tickets. That's the first and next leg of our tour and it is gonna be a whiz bang. That's absolutely true, Jesse, an absolute whiz bang. And by the way, if you're coming to the show and you'd like us to consider your dispute for adjudication on stage

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. Chris and Ethan, you're both delightful and it's fun to talk to you out there in Iowa. I wish I could come back there soon and perform at the Englert Theater in Iowa City. Love that theater so much. It's the most Muppet showy theater I've ever performed in, in terms of size and decor. Chris, you are correct. Your brain is not mush. We are living in a different world.

We had phones unleashed upon us by technology companies and the technology that the phones contain is distracting and addictive. So many of the services that phones provide for us now, so much of the technology we use is I think purposefully designed by introverted tech guys to create scenarios in which we no longer need to speak to humans and avoid human contact whatsoever. I think there's a lot of benefits to the kind of interconnected world that we're living in now, not least of which is the vast ability of many, many, many more people to be able to air their viewpoints of the world. But there are obviously some real psychological effects that people have lost confidence in

just going up to someone and saying, I need some help, or I need some directions. And obviously, you know, as we proceed through the world with phones in non-driving situations, whether we were on the plane, the bus or the subway, even when we're walking around and we have our phones in our faces, our faces are not up looking around and seeing what is discoverable here in this marvelous world around us. It's sort of like the difference between driving the same route frequently, like say driving once a week from one town in Maine to Orland, Maine in order to record this podcast here at WERU and Only knowing and remembering the road in front of you Versus when you are driven there as a passenger and all of a sudden you're like, oh, there's another gas station where I can get Hot dogs. I didn't even see that one before

Or not even noticing that you can skip the traffic on Route 1 by taking back Ridge Road, which I learned from talking to a human being named Joel. Right, Joel? Correct. Joel, you're not AI, are you? No. I believe you. There is a lot that we lose. And with regard to GPS in particular, as you have established through anecdotal evidence that that comports with mine.

The GPS, particularly GPS 10 years ago, is not foolproof. It will send you places from time to time. It will choose the wrong route. It will suggest shortcuts that it shouldn't from time to time. And I absolutely agree with you that having that ETA clock at the bottom of your phone GPS that's telling you when you're gonna arrive, that is a scourge. That is a feature I would absolutely love to erase

from my Google Maps or Apple Maps or whatever you're using to get around in the world because it gamifies your road trip, which is bad. That's really bad. Like I don't want to be playing a video game when I'm trying to get to someplace safely. And when I see that number and I see it getting later, because traffic down the road is getting worse or whatever, it creates anxiety in me that I know makes me a less safe driver. But here's the other thing about it. It's accurate. I mean, it's uncannily accurate most of the time to the minute that ETA is absolutely right.

And the fact is that even though GPS, we have some funny stories, Alan Willett does in New York about driving to a graveyard instead of the airport in Maine or whatever, that evidence is just anecdotes. For the most part, this technology works. And to the degree that it is sapping your enjoyment of the world outside of you, that is a bug, but it is true that for the most part, the technology is really effective and it works. Now, I think that your advice to your children is very good and one that I should take too,

which is to memorize certain numbers, right? In the same way, it's really good to not rely on the GPS so much that you have no sense of where you are in the world at all, much like your brain-mushed husband Mark. But I would also say that it is equally irresponsible to eschew technology that could be life-saving. And you don't, but I'm just putting it out there. You do have a phone, which is good, because there's an alternate universe in which your principles were so firmly held that you wouldn't even have a phone on a road trip at all. And that is a bad situation to be in if you get stuck in the middle of the road.

Like, nostalgic is a toxic impulse because it is a dual fantasy that the past was better and it is recoverable. The past isn't always necessarily better, right? You get stuck in the middle of the road in Maine without a phone in 1975, you've got a real problem. In 2024, that problem is mitigated, depending on your service, obviously. And I absolutely agree with you. It is a great pleasure, honestly, to study maps

and to learn without relying on the GPS, to learn over time how routes connect with one another, where things are in relation to each other. It's called orienteering and it's god or whatever darn fun. And it makes you more reliable as a driver when you aren't looking at that screen all the time. It's better. That said, you got to take some advice too here, Chris. There is one job when you are driving a car. There is one thing that you have to do. And that is first and foremost, listen to podcasts, specifically the Judge John Hodgman podcast. And then after that, it is to get you and your precious loved ones to your destination safely. Look, we've had conversations with people in the Midwest before who are eating chips and dip while they drive on the road.

And that's unacceptable in Maine. But in North Dakota, where there are not many people around and it's a straight shot and you have miles of visibility and you've got cruise control with lane assistance, you can probably get away with it. But I'll tell you something, if you're getting your son or your son-in-law to navigate you into an unknown city or a route that you don't know to a brewery that you've never been to before and you're driving with one hand, that's not okay. You can't do it. You absolutely have to learn

how to use your hands-free telephoning. I know that you probably think you don't have to, but I, Judge John Hodgman, I'm telling you, you do. You can call and get directions, right? But you can't do it while holding the phone up to your head. It's just dangerous. I'm sorry. Does that mean you have to start using a GPS? I'll hold on that for a moment to say, look, Chris, you did your job right. You raised five kids. They love you. They want to see you. They know the way to your house. You know the way

to their house. You've got grandchildren, you're a total delight, you're wonderful. And I don't even mind if you're late. Like as far as I'm concerned, Ethan, you and your siblings should just figure out like, yeah, mom's always going to be half an hour late. That's just the way it is. But you can't leave the house without, if you're not going to use a GPS, you got to figure out what your destination is and not wait till the last minute. That's on Ethan too for not telling you, not deciding to the last minute. You know what I mean? But if your system is gonna work, and I think it's a workable system

of printing out the maps ahead of time, you gotta know where you're going and you gotta study those maps pretty well so that you know before you get out of that tunnel that you gotta take that right turn. I think that it is very, very possible to get through this world safely and smartly and even on time if you choose to be without using GPS.

I don't think you're quite there yet, Chris, because if you're not going to use GPS, then you got to know where you're going and you got to insist on knowing where you're going and you can't call from the road, particularly if you're holding that phone at the last minute. Should you keep your children waiting for you half an hour? I don't know. Sometimes mystery is refreshing. Maybe they should, maybe they just need to deal with it. Is it polite? I don't know. Who cares? You're doing them a favor. But this thing of not using GPS until you force your son and or son-in-law to do it for you, that's... Look, we try to like a lot of hay these days about hypocrisy. Like, well, you said one

thing, but you did another. It's like, yeah, guess what? We're all hypocrites. We're all complete hypocrites all the time. Have I ever driven around with my phone up to my head in my life? Yes, of course I am. I'm a hypocrite too, right? But I do think that if you want to commit, right, to a non-GPS lifestyle in your car, then you have to endeavor to make sure that you are not in a situation where you have to call in the middle of driving, particularly unsafely, in order to get there.

You have to commit to it, you have to print out those maps, you have to know where you're going, you have to insist that Ethan make up his mind as to which brewery he's going to get drunk at before he sees his kids again. You have to do it consistently and correctly. And once you've hooked up that phone, then you have a backup GPS system in case you get lost. Only, and only in case you get lost

pull over Reorient yourself look at the map whether it's your physical map or whatever And then continue driving safely. I Am ruling in Chris's favor with all of these strong urgent warnings regarding distracted driving Knees are not driving equipment. And I will also, Chris order your children to each get a Road Atlas to put in their back of their car. Ideally 2014 or later. But that said, you got you got you got it. If you're not going to play, you're not going to play the GPS game, you got to improve your own GPS-less game,

Chris. This is the sound of a gavel. Calculating rules. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Ethan, how are you feeling? I'm feeling good.

Even though I lost the case, the resolution was that at least do not create work for others. And so I'm happy with the resolution. Chris, how do you feel? Pretty good, actually. Pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. And I thank you for your words and I will do my best to, well, I know, if I know ahead of time, I know, and at some place I've never been before, I will always print out the map, okay?

Chris, Ethan, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We'll have swift justice in just a second, but first our thanks to Redditor Banjo Solo for naming this week's case. If you wanna name a future case, join us on Reddit at maximumfun.reddit.com

where we chat about every week's case and that's also where we ask for those name suggestions. And honestly, Judge Hodgman, just seeing the thread of stupid name suggestions. And honestly, Judge Hodgman, just seeing the thread of stupid name suggestions is payoff enough for going to maximumfund.reddit.com as far as I'm concerned. I mean, they're brilliant. They're all so funny and brilliant.

And even I, notoriously, I get a little snobby about wordplay. I'm just like, where do they pluck this stuff from? I love it. Unbelievable. It's a magical mystery where these puns come from. If you want to join us on Instagram, please do instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. John is at John

Hodgman. I'm at Jesse Thorne. Very famous. We share evidence from the photos on the JJ ho Instagram account as well as lately a lot of dank memes. If you have a dank meme, by the way, get into our DMs at JudgeJohnHodgmanPod. That stands for dank memes. That's the DM channel, the dank meme channel? Yeah, exactly. You can also join us, of course, on YouTube.

Just search for JudgeJohnHodgman. We've got full video of every episode, thanks to Daniel Spear, our video producer. Yeah, if you wanna see all of Chris's many papers, and as they are pulled dramatically out of her folio, where you wanna go is our YouTube channel, which is at Judge John Hodgman Podd, which is also, I believe, our TikTok account

at Judge John Hodgman Podd. John, we got any Apple reviews this week? Yes, absolutely. I want to say thank you to Stump HF. Stump HF wrote just a couple of days ago that this podcast is quote, my favorite podcast. That means Stump HF's favorite podcast. And they wrote, activates both your judginess

and sense of humor the best. And if you're listening on Apple podcast, why don't you give us a little rating, drop some stars, let us know what you like about the show. I love reading those. I love reading them on the podcast and they really do help people find the podcast as does all of your efforts to subscribe,

like and share all of our social media posts and our YouTube videos. There's a lot of really fun YouTube only content that's going on over there on the YouTube channel right now. Any way that you listen to the show, if you share it, just by saying to somebody, I like it, that's doing a huge favor to us and we're very grateful. Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne

and John Hodgman. This episode engineered by Alex Schult at Mango Mustache Media in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. By the way, at the end of our recording, Alex let us know that he's a Big Macs fun fan. So thank you, Alex. He kept it secret. Thank you, Alex.

Kept it secret until the end and then dropped it on us. It was very, very sweet. Thank you, Alex. Mango Mustache Media, I'll never forget it. And of course by Joel Mann at WERU Community Radio in Orland, Maine, our social media manager, Natty Lopez, our video producer, Daniel Spear, AJ McKeon edits the audio, and of course our ever capable producer

is Ms. Jennifer Marmer. You know what I thought about that case that we just heard, John? Yeah, what'd you think about it? In Iowa, they could stand nose to nose for a week and never see eye to eye. Yeah, that's right. There's a lot of Music Man lyrics up here in this head.

You gotta know the territory. You gotta know the territory. Okay, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment, just plain toast on the Maximum Fun subreddit says, my partner folds blankets and towels into quarters. I fold them into thirds. We need consistency. Well, I agree with that.

You have to pick one. Pick one lane and stay in it. That's some GPS humor right there. But folding them into thirds, I mean, I feel like I could see hand towels folded into thirds, but when we get into bath sheets, never mind blankets. I gotta call it, Jesse, it's quarters all the way. That's your consistency. Sorry, just plain toast. Thirds is a math problem.

Yeah. Quarters, quarters, quarters. I love them. You use them to play Pac-Man and that's how you fold your blankets from now on. Consistency. Oh, I don't like reading this sentence. As of this episode's release date, summer is coming to an end. Come on.

It'll never end. This is the endless summer, Joel. Yes, endless. Right. But sometime in the defardist in future, autumn will come and we're ready to start considering your autumnal cases Do you want to enjoy pumpkin spice without being called basic? As your partner said I'm buying a 12-foot skeleton and you are opposed Hopefully they aren't already sold out for the 2024 season. I mean honestly Joel. I saw Halloween candy at the Hanna Fords

I already had my costume picked up. What is it? I can't tell you. Good. The costume is local taciturn man. We need your fall themed disputes. So send them on over to maximumfund.org slash JJ HO anything to do with fall leaves, leaf raking, leaf piling, jumping into leaves. That's all I can think about for fall. Apple cider, apple cider donuts, apple picking, you know what fall is.

Just get us some disputes, maximumfund.org slash jjho. That's where we take all of the disputes, right Jesse Thorne? Absolutely, and you know what else John? What else? Fall's not all bad, because that's when the Judge John Hodgman. Oh, you're right. The road court is hitting the road. And guess what?

If you live in one of the many places we're visiting on our road court tour, why not go to maximumfun.org slash JJHO and submit a dispute indicating that you live in one of those places, because we will get you into the show, we'll get you on stage, we'll be glad to greet you backstage. We've already offered to share our crudites. That's right.

That offer right. That offer stands. You can have as many cherry tomatoes as you like from that tray because I don't like cherry tomatoes. Maximumfun.org slash JJ HO. Yeah, I don't wanna just eat straight cherry tomatoes. It's fine in a salad or something,

but like just popping them in your mouth. Some people like to do that. That's not me. I know a whole human being that I happen to be married to like just popping them in our mouth and Some people like to do that. That's not me. I know a whole human being that I happen to be married to like just popping them in our mouth and just eating them as a snack. But to me, it's just like eyeballs. Can't wait to see you all on the road is better when you're there. Maximum fun dot org slash events for tickets maximum fun dot org slash JJ HO

for your fall theme disputes, your road court disputes and any old disputes that you happen to have wherever you are in the world. We love your beefs because they make the show go. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.