Judge John Hodgman - Admiss-kibble Evidence

Episode Date: September 30, 2026

When Steve takes the dogs on a walk, he loves to give them treats on the road. But Abbey says the dogs are getting too chonky. She wants Steve to give frozen peas a chance instead. Steve says: mushy, half frozen peas are NO TREAT. Who’s right? Who’s wrong?Thank you to u/Tony486 for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! ---Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bail of Jesse Thorne. This week, admissible evidence. Abby brings the case against her husband, Steve. Steve usually walks their dogs, Samson, and Chance. And he loves to give them treats on the road. But Abby says the dogs are getting too chunky. She wants Steve to give peas a chance instead of treats. Steve says mushy, half-frozen peas are no treat at all. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide, please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Question, and that's if only I can ask this question.

Can I? Yes, you can. Why do people think just because we speak peace, we can't throw no joints? I don't know. Bailiff, Jesse Thorne, swear the litigants in. Steve, Abby, please rise. and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth? So help you, God, or whatever? I do.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he only has cats? I do. Yes. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Abby and Steve, you may be seated. You just heard my obscure cultural reference. Please meditate upon that. When we get to my verdict, you'll be given a chance to steal the show. by guessing the obscure cultural reference correctly. If you do, you get an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. If you don't, well, then you have to hear what I have to think. All right, why don't we get into it in the meantime?

Abby, Steve, thank you for being here. Thank you for me. Who seeks justice in my court? Is it you, Abby? Yes, Your Honor. You seek dog justice. You say Steve is overtreating your two dogs. What kind of treats does he offer these dogs?

Well, just their regular kibble, but he puts a very generous. scoop in the baggie for the walk. It's actually equivalent to a full dinner serving size for the smaller dog. And he likes to scatter it in the grass while they're walking so that they can sniff it out and kind of get a little mental stimulation on the walk. Right. And you hate all of this. Because the dogs are bad and they don't deserve treats. I love my dogs. Okay. And I like that they are training their sniffing skills. Yeah. But they're already stimulated enough when they're walking because they like to, you know, smell all the smells.

And it's hard in Texas in the summer to walk them because they're both black dogs and it's really hot outside. And so they're getting too fat. They have ebony coats and they absorb all that hot, austral. Texas sun. Yeah. And they're not sweating it off. They're putting it on. And they're low to the ground.

You know, the heat reflects back from the sidewalk and hits their little bellies. That's true. Jesse, a lot of people don't consider this. I don't because I don't have dogs. That a lot of dogs are low to the ground. Yeah, I mean, the problem is it creates a heat sink effect or what they call a dog heat bounce back where the black chest of the dog and the black of the, I guess, asphalt, that they're being walked on, bounce back and forth, and eventually the dog will light on fire.

Oh, no, that would be terrible. That's why the frozen peas would help you could put out the fire. It'll cool down their little bellies. Yeah, right. Steve, tell me about these dogs. Their names are Samson and Chance. Are they good dogs or are they bad dogs? Oh, they're very good dogs.

Really? They're very indulged, but they're very good. Because I've found most people who have dogs believe all dogs are good. Yeah, that's true, too. Yeah, but Samson and Chase, they're good. Tell you what makes them so good. They're both sleek black dogs. We're going to look at some photos of them in a moment.

But I gather, first of all, they're both heat traps. What kind of dog are they? They're both rescues, so we've had a genetic test done, and chances part chihuahua and terrier. Is that right? Yeah, he's a chihuahua mix, but he's 1% mastiff. So he has... Wait a minute.

What mad science has been going on? in the breeding labs. Part Chihuahua, part Terrier, 1% Mastiff. Which one is that? Samson or Chance? That's Chance. Yeah. And Samson is Terrier and Cowdog, is that right?

Cattle dog. Cattle dog. They're both super mutts. They've got like 16 breeds in them. Nice. My dog is part terrier, part Chihuahua, part mastodon. You know, Jesse, you do have dogs. I have one single dumb, dumb cat, so I don't know a lot about dogs.

Look, I know dogs require some training. You know, fetch, sit, heel, roll over, etc. Do dogs need to be trained to sniff? I think that sniffing comes naturally to dogs, but there is specialized scent training that is something that, I'll be frank, childless dog owners do in the same way that those with children send their kids to SAT prep classes. It's like the ultimate luxury is to teach your dog to do the one thing dogs are good at. Steve, is that what's going on? You're sending your dog to, what is it, sniffing aptitude test training?

No, no, this is strictly recreational. There's no training in this. It's just an activity that engages them on the walk and they get really excited about and have fun with. There's no further purpose aside from their own benefit. Okay, let's back up a little bit. You're taking the dogs on walks through Austin, Texas, where you live, correct, Steve? Yes, sir. Who walks the dogs most often?

I do. All right. Abby, are you comfortable with that division of labor? Yes. All right, good. Steve, are you comfortable with that division? vision of labor? Sometimes.

I mean, it gets hot, so it's nice to have a break occasionally. No, no breaks for you, Steve. And you walk the dogs primarily because you work at home? I do. Although we walk them usually in the evenings because it gets so hot, like especially during the summer. So, you know, you don't want those dogs spontaneously dog combusting. Yeah.

Like Jesse Thorne says is a scientific fact. When they come in from the outside, they're just radiate heat if they've been in the sun. It's crazy. Like, you're all right. They still do sunbathing. the sidewalk in the middle of the day. Yeah, because they're dumb. They're dogs.

They don't know. They don't know. They're silly. They're goofy. Chihuahuas are basically like those dinosaurs with, you know, sun fins. Yeah, the ones that leap out and spit on you in the Universal Studios ride. The ones that absorb, that absorb heat through a big, through a big sail. You know what I'm talking about those guys?

Yeah, I remember those guys. Diplodamadons or whatever. Anyway, that's basically what chihuahuas are, only it's even harder for them to absorb the heat because they don't have a giant sale. Yeah. Have you considered getting a giant sale for them, Abby, or Steve? That could be a nice, low-calorie option. It could be. So, Steve, you take the dogs out for a walk in hot Austin, Texas, and you're throwing kibble around in the grass.

How did you devise this process and what is it for? It's typically, like, we'll stop. Like, well, there's a few nice yards that have, like, good things. grass and what I'll do is I'll just take a handful of kibble and I'll sprinkle it within a you know an arc so that they can then go explore and find I read somewhere that you know dogs are really engaged it's with the smelling and finding and browsing so yeah that was kind of the I think the instigation of us doing this but I mean that they get really excited and they get really happy to the point where the little one will even stop and refuse to go on unless I promise that

we're going to do they find it down the road Is that what you call it a find it? Find it, yeah. Okay. I think the dogs have trained him to do it, honestly, because they won't go where he wants them to go, because they know that if they refuse, that he will cave and give them food. When I walk them, they don't do this because they know that I'm not going to feed them. Right. Everything's kind of a negotiation with me with the dogs, yeah.

I like that Steve is acting like he discovered something. Dogs like to eat kibble. Yeah. Well, he was reading a book. about dogs, you may recall. It's like I invented the game. Dogs eat kibble. Right.

You know, I mentioned that I have a dumb, dumb cat, and I've told this story before, but I'll repeat it if you don't mind. You know, the hunting and fighting is good for dog and cat brains, and that's why they make those feeders that are kind of like mazes, so the dog or the cat has to hunt the food out of the plastic feeder that sort of built like a labyrinth. And we got one for our cat because it was dumb. We thought we could make it smart. But it just kept hitting its head on the labyrinth because it didn't understand it.

And then I came home one night and found that our daughter had put it out on the stoop for free with a note that said, this is a maze feeder that supposedly makes cats smarter. But our cat is too dumb to use it. You can have it for free. That was the start of our journalism career. Yeah. So cold. So cold. We have the puzzle feeders for our dogs to slow them down, really, because the little one, he was in a hoarding situation before.

And he, as the smallest guy in a group of 69 dogs, he learned to gobble his food really, really fast. And I didn't want him to choke or have a nut set tummy. Now, which one is a little one? Chance. All right. I think I got to take a look at these dogs. Let's take a look at Exhibit A. This is not the little one. This is Samson, correct?

Oh, I love him. Yeah, Jesse. What are we seeing here in this photo? What does Samson look like? Samson is a slightly larger than small, slightly smaller than medium black mutt dog. He's in a dog bed and there's a pile of something behind his butt. Let's get to that in a moment. If you want to go see what the pile of something behind Samson's butt is, all the images of course are on our show page at maximum fun.org as well as on our social media and on our YouTube if you're watching it you're seeing it right now at judge john hodgeman pod please subscribe uh all right well it looks to me like samson is a beautiful sleek little dog i love a

dog with sleek short fur like this but samson is looking a little guilty here abby what's going on yeah this is his mugshot i mean he he knew that this way had called him over to his bed to get this evidence and he adopted this expression. This is part of the problem with the kibble on the walks. Steve will put the kibble in a plastic baggie and put... Or else he gets the hose again? Sorry. And he puts it in his purse.

I'm not allowed to call it a fanny pack. It's a purse. Okay. And he walks the dogs and he scatters the kibble and then he comes back and there's leftover kibble in the baggie. And then he may or may not put his purse away where the dogs can't get it. And Samson will go rooting around, find the leftover kibble, take it to his bed, chew up the Ziploc baggie, and eat the rest of the kibble. Samson.

You know he should call him Scampson because he's a little scamp, isn't he? Yeah. And I'm worried he's going to get a bowel obstruction from the Ziplock baggie. Yeah. Steve, when you were reading your book of very obscure facts about dogs, what did it say about dogs eating plastic bags? Good or bad, would you say? I'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure he's going to say bad. Yeah, it probably says bad. Yeah, he eats a lot of kibble this way. And actually, honestly, now he kind of sees all plastic baggies as an opportunity to steal. Like the other day, I came back from a convention and I had some like lapel pins and little zes.

Ziplock baggies, and he, like, lunched for them in my hands trying to get them because I think he's used to stealing these kibble baggies. Right. And I don't want him to be trained to... Eat lapel pins? Probably that's not a good idea. I haven't read a book like Steve has, but I have a feeling that's probably not a good idea. I mean, Abby, I feel like this is bad news for your career as a lapel pin distributor,

but it's even worse for Steve's career as a mid-level drug dealer. Now, I'm looking at Samson. here, whom you have now trained to become a thief, Steve. I hope you're proud. And I don't know whether it's the angle, but he doesn't look too chunky to me. When did you start noticing that Samson and Chance were starting to put it on? This is a cyclical thing. This happens every summer.

So we have our summer wait, and then we slim down with hiking in the fall in the winter. Mm-hmm. And then we get a little bit chunkier as it gets. warmer and then we slim down again. We're doing better than we used to. Samson's, the vet has given me weight guidelines for both of the dogs. Samson's ideal weight is 40 pounds. Yeah. Well, that's his maximum. The vet said, just don't go over 40. And apparently he is densely muscled. The vet wrote that? Yeah, he said he's densely muscled while palpating him. The vet wrote down, he's just big-boned.

He's great. Yeah. He's strong. And then Chance's ideal weight is 20 pounds. And so where are they now? I weighed them not that long ago. And Samson is like 41, maybe 41 point a little bit. And Chance is 20.7.

So they're right on the. just above their ideal weight, their maximum ideal weight. And it's the end of the summer, so I think that wasn't a bad season. We didn't do too bad this year. He has gotten up to like above 44, which is a big problem because that's pretty heavy for him. And then also when he is over 44 pounds, his like, like, flea and tick and heartworm medicine is like twice as much because then he's in the next weight bracket. All of that bills go. Oh, right.

Okay. So then there's extra prescription costs. Yes. Yeah. But. And you blame Steve and his kibble for this? Partly. Well, let's take a look at Exhibit B here.

Abby, you submitted this photo of two plastic baggies of kibble. Mm-hmm. What's that? Truly, John. Truly, this looks like one of those pictures that a bunch of DEA agents take in front of a desk at a press conference. It's true. It's true. This is the result of your sting operation, or is this something that happens?

in your home. You know, it was a little bit of a scene operation because Steve prepared one of these baggies for a walk, and then I went and I scooped at chances dinner portion into another baggie and put them side by side just to have a comparison for what the portion size is. Because one of Steve's arguments is that he doesn't give them that much kibble on the walks. And so I wanted a piece of visual evidence that shows these are actually big portions. Abby, it says here that the, so this is a side-by-side baggies full of, I'm just going to say, revolting-looking kibble. I'm sorry, I don't want to put your dog food brand on blast, but this looks like either chunks of mulch or horribly dried out apricots or something.

That's going to say red mulch. Yeah. They like the dried out parts because that's like a dehydrated, like turkey or dehydrated venison. It is pretty revolting, though. It's like a freeze dried meat and then a kibble blend. Oh, okay. And it says here the two side-by-side baggies here, the one on the left is dinner kibble and the one on the right is walking kibble. There's more in the walking kibble.

There's more in the walking kibble. If you had to guess, right, Jesse, if you were going to win a blue ribbon at the state fair for kibble. Kibble amount guessing. Yeah, I mean, I'm entering crop art, but if I were entering kibble amount guessing, then yes. I would have assumed that the one on the right was dinner and the one on the left was treat, but it's the other way around, and there's more treat than there is dinner. Steve, do you dispute that there's more treat than there is dinner? I don't, but I would say that I do not distribute the full bag on a single trip, so that would be like three or four trips.

No, you've got to leave some behind for Samson's to steal out of your purse. Yeah, exactly. It's the thing. Steve, do you know the difference between treats and dinner? Or when you get up for a snack, you just eat a couple of whole rotisserie chickens? I do. I don't think the dogs necessarily do. I think it's just food is what they're after.

But like, I would know initially I was being pretty generous, like doing probably half of that amount. Yeah, because it's fun, right? But then Abby witnessed it and was horrified. So since then I've drastically curtailed, the amount of kibble that I give them. I do like a small handful. Like it'd be, I would guess that bag would last like four or five trips.

Unless it gets, unless it gets took him. And he doesn't just steal him out of my purse. I also, every pair of shorts I have has a small hole where he's chewed through the material in order to pull the bag out. If you know this is a problem, Steve, why don't you do something about it?

I am. I'm trying to be much more cognizant of where I put the bag. Keep track of it. I have a place for it now. I think it's gotten better. but it hasn't been fixed. Did you get, what did you get a lockbox? You got a fireproof safe?

Just a drawer, a drawer where we keep all the other dog stuff. I try to put that bag in there after the look. It says here in my book of dog facts, the dogs can't use drawers, right? But I have a question. But you want to replace these treats for various reasons, which we've alluded to already. We'll get into it a little bit now. But Abby, you want frozen peas, which brings us to exhibit C. now we finally get to see both dogs.

That's what they call a two-dog laugh in Jesse Thorne Parlance. What are we seeing, Jesse? Okay. So the dogs look really similar, considering their different sizes. And I know that this is in part kind of like a mystery spot style foreshortening effect because one is closer to the camera, but they look very similar. They're both have beautiful black coats. One who I presume is chance has a bit of a gray muzzle.

And they are sitting at attention on either side of a most foregrounded hand full of frozen peas. And one can only assume that both dogs have not yet seen. They're shorter than the hand. They haven't seen over the hand yet to realize that that is not a dog thing. just frozen peas. Well, you don't know that, Jesse, because as you know, if you train them correctly,

dogs can smell pretty good. Yeah. And if you train them correctly, they might be able to smell it. Those are peas. They seem pretty excited, I must say. Now, and I will say this. The one with the gray muzzle is Jesse, right?

Is that Chance? That's correct. So the one on the right is Samson. And Samson is looking a little chunky here, Steve. Did you know that? Chance is looking. Chances looking slim. Samson's looking a little chunky in this photo. And in the photo, these hands holding these peas, whose hand is that? That's my hand. Abby, you're trying out the

pea trick here. No, no, this is an established practice. Oh? They love the peas. When I play, find it with them, I play it with blueberries and peas, and they have a great time. I think you're wrong, Abby. I know that when you take a dog for a walk, it loves pee. and it loves to sniff for peas. It's not garden peas. What do you mean, Jesse? Well, dogs like to urinate on things, John, and then smell the urine, unless they find a dead animal.

That they like to roll around in. Okay. But don't dogs like to eat frozen peas? I mean, I've heard of this before. Is this a real thing? We have fruit and vegetable dogs. Some dogs are fruit and vegetable dogs and some dogs are meat dogs

and we have fruit and vegetable dogs. They will eat anything, including bird seed. Well, all I want in the world is for my dog Jr. To eat carrots because I've seen some dogs on Instagram walking around with carrots in their mouth

like they were cigars. Yeah. And I just, it's all I want in the world. And I make the carrot dance around on the ground. I do everything within my power. to try and get my dog to like to want to eat a carrot and it never works and I also try and put watermelon into his bowl. Mm-hmm. And he picks it up. He looks at me. He walks about six or eight steps and then he just puts it back on the ground. Thank you. Have you ever tried feeding

junior peas? No, but I it just so happens. I'm about to move. So I'm clearing out my freezer. Yeah. I have extra peas right now? Well, I don't know. Give it a try. I mean, I did go online and discover that it is healthy and accepted and done, though, and

the dogs supposedly really like it. I don't know. These two dogs seem happy enough about it. You say, Abby, they enjoy it. Steve, I'll put the point out there that if you throw peas into a lawn, they're harder to find because of camouflage. It's next level scent training.

This is another one of my arguments, is that If he really wants to train them to do the scent training, they have a much harder time smelling the difference between frozen pea and grass than frozen pee and dried turkey. You know, Abby and Steve, Abby, you say that these are fruits and vegetable dogs. From time to time, I go online and I do an impromptu online talk show where I interview people's cats and dogs and other pets called catch your pets. and the pet owner will have to forgive me because I forget their name and their dog's name, but I will never forget this one dog that came on from time to time and would eat a whole head of cabbage. Whole-headed lettuce or a whole head of cabbage just destroy.

Was it cabbage? Because I would think the farting would be quite bad. Maybe it was lettuce. But it was very exciting to see. It's not like the farting is good when they don't eat cabbage. I'm talking about the numbers of farts, not necessarily the smell, but there you go. So, Abby, you're holding these peas in your hand. What do they feel like?

They're cold. Yeah. But these are fresh from the freezer, aren't they? Yes. They're fresh from the freezer. And a serving of kibble, a third a cup of their kibble is, what is it? It's like 108 to 133 calories. the equivalent serving of peas is like 30 calories for what it's right.

Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you for doing that math. Yeah, I googled it. But Steve, one of your arguments against doing this is that it feels gross to you to carry around these wet peas all the time. And then I'd have to throw away the bag or I guess I'd have a different bag and wash it. And it seems more of a pain than what I'm currently doing. You'd have to throw away the bag instead of collecting it. like all your excess kibble baggies that you've got?

Is that part of your collection? Well, I mean, if I was using a plastic bag or something similar, I guess it's not. The dogs will both eat vegetables, but Chance doesn't really like it. He'll only eat a lot of stuff if Samson's around because he knows he wants to keep it away from him. So it's another thing that I wonder if he would be as excited. That's not true. He likes some of them, but not others. I test what he likes when he's alone.

So if I remove Samson from the equation, I find out what Chance actually likes to eat. And he does like Pete. When you put Chance into the isolation chamber, what did he love? He likes apple. He loves oranges. He likes crunchy. So he likes crunchy celery and he likes broccoli. He likes peas.

He does not like blueberries, which is something that I discovered when he was alone. And it's actually really funny when Samson's around. if I throw a blueberry chance will get it and like force it down. Like he's obviously miserable and he doesn't like eating it. But he feels like he has to eat it before Samson will get it. He doesn't like those antioxidants? I guess not. I don't think he likes mushy things.

He doesn't really like banana, but he'll eat it. And he gets offended if he doesn't get his portion of any banana that I eat. You said that you said the chance likes celery, and I believe that brings us to exhibit D, if we could take a look at that. What are we seeing here? Jesse, what are we looking at? I see. Okay, so chances up.

First of all, this is clearly a dog chair that the chances on. This was once a side chair in their home, but it's now been covered by possibly a dish towel so that because dogs were using it as their chair. Right. that's very conspicuous. On the seat of this fully upholstered side chair is a long stick of celery. Full stick, I'm talking from the white to the leaves.

Chances there looking up at the camera like, yes, I like celery. But I think there's a little bit of celery hanging out of his mouth. I did What was how did this celery get up on this chair with chance? Abby, was this part of your experiment? So I gave him that celery because I was not going to cook with it because it was had gone limp. And he,

I think he was sad because it wasn't crispy, crunchy. And he was also sad because when I went to take the photo, I think he thought I was going to take it away from him. because this is an unusual occurrence that he would have a full stick of celery. So this look on his face was actually, I think, alarm as I approached him to take the photo. Oh, he thought you were going to take his celery stalk away. I have a question. Would it be okay if I took a chance and then put him under my t-shirt so that his head comes out next to my head and then we share the knuckle?

He would like that. No, he would hate that. But his curse in life is that he's incredibly cute, but he doesn't like most people. Oh. He would like me. Yeah, he would like Jesse. But I'm more concerned that Steve, you're like, yeah, he'd like that. And Abby's like, no, he wouldn't.

One of you is wrong. Who's wrong about this dog? If Jesse got to no chance, I bet chance would be down for it. All dogs like to share the neck hole with Jesse. Steve, Abby's done all this scientific research to prove. that not only does chance like peas, but also like celery, and I think probably enjoys a Bloody Mary from time to time as a result. Do you disagree that the dogs will eat the peas as treats?

Oh, they definitely would eat the treats if I scattered them like I did the kibble. I want to talk to you about the scattering. Tell me more about this practice that you have. The way you described it was, walk through the neighborhood. If I see a nice lawn, I throw a bunch of food onto it, and the dogs go and find the food. Whose lawns are we talking about here? These are the neighbors in our neighborhood.

And what I'll do is I'll find like a place that has like good grass where the kibble will fall into. And then I'll take a handful and I'll scatter like an arc about the length or the radius of the leash so they can hunt around in this area while we stop stationary. And neighbors will come out and it's usually the same few yards and I've made conversation with the neighbors. No one's complained about it. Jenny was a concern that Abby had as well. I mean, I would have that concern too.

I don't know that if you were my neighbor, I would love for you to be throwing dried turkey meat onto my lawn through your dogs can root around on it. One of my concerns is that kibble is very attractive to fire ants. Man, you have been doing, Steve read one book on dogs and you've been doing deep dives. You've been doing, I appreciate your, your, your, your, uh, preparation for this case, Abby. Because you've been running scientific experiments. You've been doing,

you've been doing caloric research. You've been getting your data together. And now you're like, hmm, what else can I use against this guy that I love this, this husband is a whole human being in his own right? Oh yeah. Let me see if the kibble is attracted to fire ants. Let me test that hypothesis. Abby just spent her day yesterday on the phone with the reference desk at the New York Public Library. like, give me some dirt on kibble. This is from personal experience. I grew up in Texas, and I have many strong memories of seeing cat food and dog food absolutely covered in fire ants. Oh, my God.

I've been completely covered in firedance twice. Yeah, so have I. Well, that's what you get for covering yourself in kibble. Yeah, I was going to say, Steve, are you concerned, since you got covered with fire ants, are you concerned that you might be come dog food once you start feeding these dogs, the peas, they'll revolt and they'll say, we want the meat and then jump on you? I'm not worried about dogs are going to eat me if that's what you're asking. To quote Jennifer Marmer, they're going to be like, give me the kibbles and they're going to jump on

you. Steve and Abby, I'm going to presume that you're maximum fund members because you're really nice people and you're really cool. But maybe you heard on the Membo Mailbag, we're talking about this, that, or the other. And at some point, we're talking about cookies, whether we'd choose cookies. cookies or something else. And Jennifer Marmer just said, give me the cookies.

And that has become most incredible catchphrase, but it's a members-only catchphrase. I see, Jennifer, you're teed up. You're ready to say it. Don't say it. It's for members-only.

I'm not going to say it. I'm worried about these non-members who are now learning that that's my new catchphrase because I'm worried about what they think about me. Yeah, they probably think that you're freaking

amazing and the coolest. And you thought of an amazing catchphrase on the spot spontaneously because it spoke to your heart. And it spoke to the heart of the Max Fund members of America and beyond. Everybody who's gone to Maximumfund.org slash join JJHO. Yeah. Those people all have been moved by this magical work of art that you created. Like you were freaking Andy Goldsworthy making a pattern of trees next to a river and then it washes away and only the members have heard it. We all want the cookies. Yeah. Jennifer Marmon, did you receive a package in the mail recently?

I sure did. I sure did. Who was the package from? It was from our letter writer, Karen, who inspired me to request that she gave me to cookies. And she gave me to cookies. What? What? She gave me to cookies.

She gave me to cookies. And what did she write on the outside of the box? Give me. No, don't say it. No, don't say it. Remembers only. I forgot. It's only for members only.

If you want to become a member, go to maximum fun.org slash join JJHO. membership started at $5 a month. And you get a monthly extra bonus episode where you get to hear Jennifer Marmer say fun things. Steve, Abby has come to this podcast with the receipts. She's got caloric counts. She's got fire ant research. She's done isolated dogs. vegetable eating research.

All of, she sent in these photos. She's raised meaningful concerns about the dog's weight, about the dog possibly eating plastic bags, about the chaos that is happening because Samson has learned to become a thief. And she's asking you to do a simple thing, which is give peas a chance. Ah.

And you're saying you'd like to not, because they feel bad in your hand. What else do you get out of this ritual with the dogs that you're afraid will change if I were to rule against you in this? I worry it'd be less likely to do it if it was more, you know, work to get it set up. As it is, it's something I just, as I'm getting the dogs, I just put a scoop of kibble into a bag. So I guess adding friction to the process would make it less likely to happen is my concern. What do you enjoy about playing this game with the dogs?

Oh, they really like it a lot, and it's fun to see them get so engaged and excited, and they seem to get a lot out of it from, because like Chance insists on it pretty much every walk in. Yeah, I don't care about the dogs. They're dogs. I'm talking about you, Steve. What do you get out of it? Enjoyment from making my dogs happy. Yeah.

And how often are you walking the dogs? Pretty much every day. Solo? Yeah. Twice a day, mostly you? Uh, usually it's, with the summer, we usually can only do one once a day unless we get up really, really early before the sun gets up. Okay. So during the summer, it's usually in the evening once a day.

Steve, have you considered, I'm really glad you're both sitting down for this, have you considered the fact that if I were to rule in Abby's favor and force you to change the treats to peas, that your walking ritual could now be called peas and poops? Abby, so if I were to rule in your favor, let me see if I understand this. These are the changes you'd like to see. First of all, no more plastic bags of dinner food, but instead reusable bags, non-digestable bags of frozen peas, or you mentioned orange slices or stalks of celery, I suppose. Just anything soccer practice related.

Yeah, that's right. Maybe some Satsumas even. You want the scattering to stop in neighbor's lawns. Is there anything else? Well, I mean, my ideal situation would just be that walks or walks with no food. They are, they're not reactive on walks, so we don't need it for training purposes. and they love the walks just walking. So there's just a need to be any additional calorie load

when you go on a walk at all. Abby, are you familiar with the settled law in the court of Judge John Hodgman, the person driving the car picks the music? Yes. How would you describe that law? Well, I was worried about this because I thought, well, he's the one doing the work

so he should get to decide. Jennifer Marmer said that that wasn't the case, though. She said. That it was a matter of the dog's welfare. We won't accept your appeals to authority. Why do you think that this rule doesn't apply to you? Well, because it's not really about my preference. It's about what's best for the dog's health.

So it's a matter of trying to keep them at a healthy weight. The person who drives the car chooses the music is the principle that says the person who is putting in most, if not all of the labor on a chore, gets to choose essentially how it is done. If you are loading and unloading the dishwasher, your spouse does not need to weigh in on what you're doing wrong. If you are driving the car, you get to have veto power over what music is playing because you are putting in the labor, and particularly when you're driving a car. You need to have your attention preserved and not distracted by things that you don't want to listen to are bad.

But you're saying the health of the dogs overrules all of my previous rulings. The Chance and Samson are such special good, good, good boys that this whole podcast is out of order because I can't handle the truth, which is they're the best dogs, correct? I think I'm saying that if Steve was driving the car and I was the passenger, I would say, hey, don't hit that pedestrian. Steve, is that a problem for you? I want to hit the pedestrian. I should be able to.

But I would agree that like the dog's diet is a shared concern. So it doesn't fully apply. Like, you know, whether I'm giving them kibble or not. Like how they eat, I think is. Abbey definitely has input, heardless of whether she's there. But I do value like this time. They do enjoy it. It's kind of the rhythm of our walks.

I'd be kind of loath to get rid of the find it game that we play. Well, I hike the dogs. I mean, I don't walk them as much in the summer, but I'm the dog hiker. He's the dog walker. I'm the dog hiker. But, Abby, you're making this argument that, like, when you are putting in the work, which you obviously also do, obviously this is a well-shared effort. When you're hiking the dogs, there is no expectation of fetching kibble from the neighbor's yards. You feed them oranges, which they love.

When you do things your way, they love it. Right? But that doesn't mean that when they do things Steve's way, they don't love it equally. They love you, they love him too. And don't you think, Steve, that they would be sad if you stopped throwing food into the neighbor's yard for them to dig up? I definitely do. And I worry Chance would just refuse to walk with me at this point. Which one do you have the bond with again? Which is your close special bond? Samson. Samson is probably a little more attached to me. Samson's your guy. I forgot that actually might be the origin of the kibble on the walks because there was a while where chance wouldn't go on walks with Steve.

He would only go with me or with both of us. And I said take kibble. You forgot about that, did you? Yeah. Oh, you want to steal chance back from Steve. No, I don't want to do the walks. It's too high. You want both of those dogs to be in your pocket.

No, I'll never have Samson. You know what? I feel like I went into a neighbor's yard and I pooped and I peed and I dug up a crux. You're jealous because they love that kibble so much. Is it true? No. Can you not handle the truth? I just don't want them to be, I don't want them to be too fat because when the dog is too fat, it is only your fault.

The dog has no control over their diet. It's really just because you've failed as a caretaker. And, you know, I don't know. You say that, like, they gain weight over the summer when Steve is walking them, then they lose weight over the winter when you're hiking them. You're really working them out. Yeah. I take them on longer off-leash hikes.

There's only two. Have you talked to your vet about the health implications of this yo-yo dieting these dogs are on? Not yo-yo dieting. It's yo-yo exercising. because they eat kind of the same. Abby, have you talked to these neighbors about this? No, I haven't. Do you have any, I mean, you've got evidence galore here.

Do you have any evidence that the neighbors have a problem with this? I will say that on walks, I have experienced negative comments more frequently than Steve has, maybe just because I'm a woman and people are more comfortable saying things to me. Like one time I was walking them at night without lights and this guy told me that he wished I got hit by a car. Well, geez. Was it the guy from Kill Tony?

It seems like something he'd say. And I put a poo bag in somebody's trash can. Oh, Jesse Thorne style? I'll never do it again. You're bringing it down on me, John? I've been running from this comment for 10 years. I know. I'll never do it again.

I don't do it anymore. I carry the poop the whole time. Steve, are you afraid of my judgment? I know I welcome it. Okay. Your primary argument is that the peas feel bad in your hand, correct? Also, the quantity of kibble that I'm doing is like a third of what chances dinner is split between the two of them. Did you not see the same evidence that I saw?

Oh, it's split between the two of them. It was a full dinner portion split between the two. You're getting half a dinner. I just take a handful of it from that bag and then that bag would last for three or four walks. So your arguments are, please feel bad in my hands and my wife is wrong. I'm going to invite you to make an argument that might be a winning argument. If I were to rule against you. With her input, I definitely reduce the amount of kibble that I give them.

Like I did realize that I was giving them too much. So I have adjusted that prior to this hearing. If I were to, so, so if I were to rule against you, and if I were to rule, peace, no lawn scattering outside of your own lawn, reusable bag, how would that make you feel? All it's left for you now is an emotional appeal to Abby, who's a whole human being in our own right, and me, John Hodgman, and bailiff Jesse Thorn. I wouldn't have too big a problem with that aside from the only in my own lawn because it is a integral part of the walk for chance at this point.

So to remove that would be, would make me sad. You anticipate the chance would be sad and therefore you would be sad or you take delight in doing it yourself. I really enjoy watching them do it as well. Like, you know, and it is like, so I mean, I guess I could do that in the yard,

but chance would be sad. He wouldn't enjoy the walks as much. He might fuse to walk with me again. Well, Steve, I appreciate your emotional appeal. If you had only simply said three words, give me the cookies. I would have ruled in your favor, but automatically. But as it is, I'm going to go, I'm going to go walk around my neighborhood and I'm staying away from my neighbor's lawns. And consider my verdict, and I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Don't forget, you'll have a chance to get an immediate summary judgment in your favor if you get the obscure cultural reference. So I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Abby, how are you feeling about your chances right now? I feel like the judge is going to take the dog's well-being into consideration. So I think that whatever he decides will probably be able to come up with something that is good for the dogs. Steve, how about you? I'm putting my faith in the wisdom of Judge John Hodgman.

You guys are both copping out as far as I'm concerned. We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We're taking a quick break from the case. Fall is upon us, John. Yes. We're not on the road right now. No.

What's going on with you? Well, we're not on the road right now, but soon we'll be releasing information about our return to the San Francisco Sketchfest, which will happen in January, more. details to follow. In the meantime, the best way to follow along with what I'm doing is to subscribe to my newsletter at hodgeman.substack.com. Not only do I give you periodic updates about what's going on in my life, both publicly and privately, but also up in the secret room of my newsletter, I am continued to read aloud to the novel Moby Dick or the Whale by Herman Melville in a terrible main accent. If you hate my Tom Waits impersonation, why do you get a load of my Burton Eye

impersonation while I read, discover and rediscover this incredible American novel. If you've never read Moby Dick and I've been intimidated by it, please join me as I read it to you and talk about it because it's great and it's just mostly funny and also beautiful and profound. And it's also quite long, but it doesn't matter because every chapter is essentially a sort of newsletter, a travel log, a personal letter from a truly eccentric thinker named Herman Melville, but you can call them Ishmael. To join on the expedition through Moby Dick, just go to Hodgman.subdack.com. It costs nothing to subscribe.

The Moby Dick section is behind a small paywall, but if you're a new subscriber, you always have a chance to take a listen. The first time is for free, and if it's for you and you have the means, come along with us. It's a lot of fun. There's also a comment section there where I have wonderful chats with people. And if you want to have a wonderful chat with me, that's a great place to do it. hodgeman.substack.com. Jesse Thorne, what's going on with you?

Well, it's autumn. And we have all kinds of autumn drops in the Put This On Shop at Put This Onshop.com, including things like coats and scarves for persons of all genders. And, of course, all the beautiful gift items you can buy, whether it's jewelry, again, for people of all genders or antiques. home decor items, vintage clothes, all I put this on shop.com, including, you know, I just moved. So a lot of things had to come out of my house because I'm moving into a smaller house. So it's special treasures from Jesse's house hitting to put this on shop right now. I put this on shop.com.

And, John, I'm just going to give a shout out to my comedy show, Jordan, Jesse, go. Well, why not? Jordan Morris. Yeah. Jordan is, of course, the Eisner Award nominated comic book writer, the WGA member television comedy writer, the YouTube performer on Good Mythical Morning, one of the funniest people on earth. And it is just a silly nonsense, funny comedy podcast with a lot of vulgarity and good spirit. It's true. And the other day, John, yeah, true story. Yeah. Talking to podcast star, stop.

Avros, Halcias. Uh-huh. Stavi from Stavi's World. Stavi from Stavvy's World, yeah. Lovely man. Yep. He says to me, we're going to have to bleep this out.

It's the name of a famous podcast. There's no P-Town without Jordan Jessica. Whoa. It's a true story. He said that to me directly. It was his idea to say it, not my idea. Stavi said that. Yeah.

Podcast star. Real podcast star, not a Twitter. 25% podcast star like me. No, listen. You're a podcast star. Jordan Jesse Go is a total delight every week. It's true that it has some explicit language in it, but it doesn't mean that it's not full of heart and warmth and laughs and friendship and some of the coolest other people in the world come on there and hang out with you guys.

It's true. Steve Agee. Remember Steve Agee? Remember that time we called Steve Agee? Just because we wanted to hear Steve Agee's voice. We love that guy. I mean, you're not lucky enough necessarily to have Steve Aegee's number and just call them up. I'm going to call them up after we stop recording. But if you want to listen to Steve Agey, that's one place you can do it, Jordan Jesse Go.

We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom to present his verdict and the source of the obscure cultural reference. Abby and Steve, you may be seated. Before I give you my verdict, I'll give you a chance to steal the case by guessing the obscure cultural reference. Do you even remember it? No matter, because Jesse Thorne and I are going to perform it again for you. Question. And that's if only I can ask this question. Can I? Yes, you can. Why do people think just because we speak peace, we can't throw no joints? I don't know. Why don't we go with Steve? Why don't you guess first? Do you know the origin of that?

I'm going to guess the movie The Warriors. The Warriors, soon to be a Broadway musical created by Lynn Men well, Miranda. All right. Well, I'm going to write that down. As you can see, I'm doing it right here on the YouTube. I'm using my brand new gavel from Offerman Winchop, which doubles as a pencil. Abby, what's your guess? I think maybe the 1951 movie, you never can tell when a man, let's see, a dog was murdered

and came back as a man to solve his own murder and he carried his kibble around in a paper bag. Well, Abby, you're absolutely correct. It was the song Pease Porridge by De La Sol from their second album. De La Sol is Dead, released 1991, which was a song I have not heard in a long time. And you know what, Jesse? It rocks. They're not just hip-hop hippies. No.

They can throw down when necessary. Peas Porage. Go listen to it. In any case, I guess I'm going to have to rule on you guys. Look, I love frozen peas a lot. I really do. They're really great to have around. You can always throw some frozen peas into a pasta dish.

I wouldn't do it in a red sauce pasta dish. But like, you know, in a white sauce pasta or even in a creamy pasta dish. And all of a sudden, you got a pop of color and a pop of flavor and you just toss them in there and they cook like nothing. You get a clonk on the head because someone, hit you in the head with the Nick Offerman gavel, you put a pack of frozen peas right up there, feel better in seconds, throw them back in their refrigerator. If you got, if you, maybe, maybe you got a little bit of a headache. Lie down, put some frozen peas, a bag of frozen peas over your eyes.

You feel good. I like peas. I like frozen peas a lot. And I think they're delicious to boot. And I do believe the dogs like him. I don't like to have them in my hand all mushy, though, I have to say. That said, there are some real concerns here. And I have to, you know, Abby, I got to give you credit.

Because you came with some serious evidence. You came with some serious research. And you came with some serious to, if I may say, saying that my settled law, the person who drives the car, chooses the music, is unfair. You asked me to reconsider. What's been settled law on this podcast for years and years. And that takes a certain amount of, well, I don't know. Canny scoundrelness?

Perhaps. And certainly a certain amount of bravery, which I appreciate. And the argument you gave was, I would ask Steve to change the music if he was going to hit someone on the road. and while I can't imagine that that would ever happen and I hope that it never does because that would be terrible you did make me think again about exigent circumstances you know the other great argument

or you know the other great example I should say that we use for this piece of settled law is like if you're loading and unloading the dishwasher you get to choose how to load it and unload it that said if you are if you are loading it and you know the and you're putting a full bowl of dog food into the dishwasher because you don't feel like dumping out the dog food or rinsing it out well then you are doing it wrong and it is okay for someone who loves you to come in and and tell you to do it a different way you've rewritten all of our precedent

and you know that's good because law is supposed to be a living, you know, the Constitution is a living document, right? Law is supposed to adjust and make changes as we take in new circumstances and as the world changes. And if you are a constitutional originalist, you misunderstand what the whole point of the Constitution is, especially if you're a constitutional originalist who then doesn't care about it when a president from your own party wants you to do something. Yeah, I'm throwing some shade at the Supreme Court. Put me in, coach. Point is, these dogs, they're in good shape. They are not, it seems to me, in danger of becoming morbidly obese or otherwise have their health at the current time be in jeopardy because of

Steve's practice. It's been happening for a while. They are at the top of their weight class. I'm confident that you're going to be able to work them back into shape once they get over there in the winter. And Steve is getting something out of this. This routine has helped him bond with a dog who didn't want to bond with him. And yet that has now been achieved because, as you've discovered, dogs are trainable. I know these dogs are having a great time. I know Steve's having a great time. I know that everyone's having a great time. but just because a great time is being had doesn't mean that a universal good is existing.

And I think that it is reasonable. Steve understands that it's reasonable to adjust the amount of treats being given to bring them more in line with the caloric category of treats as opposed to dinner. They do need... The treats should not be as caloric as they are. A. B.

Steve, you want me to believe that your neighbors love it when you throw food all over their lawn so your dogs can go in there and scratch it all up. I'm not going to gaslight you by saying that your lived experience is untrue. But I do think that it is a bad practice, a questionable practice. There may be a situation where a neighbor doesn't like it but feels too polite to say something about it. I know, I know you live in Texas, that never happens. But maybe there may also be a neighbor who moves in, and you don't know that there's a new neighbor in town who really doesn't like it, and then you're going to get in trouble.

That whole practice, I'm going to tell you right now, has got to stop. I know that nothing bad has happened yet, but it's disrespectful to your neighbors, even if they seem to like it. Chat with your neighbors, let them pet your dog on the curb, whatever. but you don't need to throw stuff on their property. You would never throw stuff on your neighbor's property. This is like, you know, when I read dog Reddit and particularly anti-dog Reddit, this is where it starts getting hot, right?

This is why I'm staying away from all dogs, because that's a hot stove I do not want to touch. And while I accept there may be some confusion and frustration for a while, that they're not getting kibble off a stranger's lawn, their dogs. They'll, their brains will adapt. It sounds like I'm ruling entirely in Abby's favor, but I'm going to say this, no peas. No thank you to yes peas. It's fair, Steve, for you to not have to put your hand in a bag of melting peas. It is gross.

And it is unnecessary when there are many, many other options. There are many low-calorie treats that you can offer the deal. dog that are not slimy. There are specifically low, low calorie treats that trainers use that have as few calories as a pee does and yet has more of a, I guess, you know, meaty dry texture similar to what you're already giving them. The reality is, if their treats, they should be something different anyway than their actual food. I'm not a dog trainer. I don't have dogs, But my feeling is that if you are looking to train them to sniff better, if you are looking to give them a nimble mind activity by throwing low calorie treats into the tall grasses of a public area and obviously not destroying that area and being mindful of the environment, et cetera. But, you know, if you're trying to do this, I think it's going to be better for the dogs to have something that's different from what they eat for dinner.

to identify a treat with a special time, a special time with Steve. So make a change, Steve. And I would encourage you to follow Abby's lead and do a little research. And together, find a substitute treat that isn't something that feels slimy in your hand that you don't like. I then order you to please stop throwing food on your neighbor's lawns. I don't think that that's a good practice. I think you've gotten away with it far too long. but someday you, you, virtuous hero,

some canny scoundrel's going to come and get you. And just put it in a bag and the rest. So I'm ruling in Abby's favor minus the peas. Because, you know, they're great for a lot of things, and even dogs like them. But on a long walk, you don't want to have a bag of melting peas with you. This is the sound of a gavel. That was the most humiliating experience of my life.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the court. courtroom. Abby, how do you feel right now? I feel hopeful that Steve will take the ruling and do some research and find some stuff that really works for the dog's health. And that makes the walks a special time. I really liked that part of the ruling about making it different than the meal time. Special Steve time is pretty great. I enjoy. my special Steve time. Steve, how are you feeling?

I feel okay. It's a good point about being considered to my neighbors, which I'll definitely take into account and find either an empty lot or a, you know, not somebody's yard to do it in. Well, Abby, Steve, thanks for coming on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. What a joy to get to talk to you.

Thanks, Y'all. Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgman case, is in the books. We need cases, Jesse. It's how we make the podcast go. Is that correct or am I wrong? I believe the podcast is like a locomotive.

Mm-hmm. And the coal of the locomotive is the disputes of our listeners. You know, there's a wonderful cartoon that has been made into a movie called Coyote v. Acme. And it's really rules, and I really encourage people to see it. And God is thinking maybe we should do some cartoon cases. Ooh. Are cartoons just for kids? I'm sure no one really believes that.

But is there someone out there who believes that cartoons are just for kids? Have you tried to get your partner to watch Spirited Away and they say, I don't want that greasy kid stuff? Which is better? Looney Tunes or Mickey Mouse cartoons? Who picks Mickey Mouse cartoons? I'm telling you, there's going to be. Maniac picks. There's going to be someone out there who's picking Goofy over Daffy, I'm telling you right now.

Make your case, I'd like to hear it. Which Disney animated film is the best film and which is the most problematic? Send in your cartoon disputes, your arguments, your hot takes, your controversial opinions to me at maximum fun. dot org slash JJHO. Anything related to animation or cartoons, movies you love, TV shows you love, whatever you like. Remember, there's a wonderful cartoon called Dicktown. Why is everyone who hasn't seen it wrong? We're going to have Swift Justice in a second, but first our thanks to Redator Tony 486 for naming this week's episode, Admiss Kibble Evidence. Admis Kibble evidence. Maybe next week's submission will come from a Pentium.

Okay. Join the conversation at the Maximum Fun subreddit. That's our slash maximum fun. That's where we ask for those title suggestions. It's always fun to check out those threads. Evidence and photos from the show posted on our Instagram account. That's Judge John Hodgman. John and I also on Instagram.

I'm Jesse Thorne, very famous. John is, you're just John Hodgman, right, on Instagram? I am John Hodgman, J-O-H-N-H-D-G-M-A-N, all one-word, all small letters. You can also find us on TikTok and YouTube by searching for Judge John Hodgman. What's our YouTube comment of the week, John? Jesse Thorne, our YouTube comment of the week. This week comes from Yeway, 12, 367, who says, I'm just here because a deranged millionaire sent me to subscribe.

Can I go back to audio now? And guess what? I saw that comment, and I personally responded saying, yes, of course you may, and thank you. If you prefer to listen to the audio feed, of course, this is how we've been doing it for all this time. That said, we do enjoy making the YouTube videos for you, full episodes as well as video-only content over there. And if you're a fan of the show, it costs you nothing to go over there and subscribe, but it does really help us get our numbers up on YouTube, which helps people discover the podcast, which is YouTube is where most people discover podcasts now. And that's part of why we do it. And part of why we do it is we have a lot of fun.

and you get to see the evidence as it comes out, et cetera, et cetera. You can see the ever-evolving changes here in my autumnal studios, here as I stay into the shoulder season of Maine for the first time in my life. I'm enjoying it very much. Anyway, YouTube is Judge John Hodgman Pod. Please go over there and subscribe and make sure to leave a comment. Maybe you will be the YouTube comment of the week. How about this, John?

How about this? Do you have a favorite recent episode of Judge John Hodgman? Yeah. go to the YouTube, find that episode. Yeah. Copy that link. Send it to a few friends. Yeah.

Tell them why they might enjoy this episode of Judge John Hodgman. Yeah. Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This episode recorded at ATX recording in Austin, Texas. Thanks to the members of Maximum Fund for making it possible for us to get these studios. Megan Rossotti runs our social media, the podcast edited by A.J. McKee and our video editor, Daniel Spear, our producer, Jennifer Marmer. Swift justice, small disputes, quick judgment. Let me get my big gavel.

I'm ready. Night owl work from R slash maximum fun says, I like drinking my Diet Coke cellar temperature. My husband prefers it, let's say one degree above frozen. Who is correct? Well, people like what they like. I often enjoy a lukewarm diet Coke from time to time, myself. That doesn't mean your husband's wrong. It simply means you need to get a special

DC fridge. Just get a wine fridge and keep your Diet Coke in there. Or better yet, keep water in there and drink that instead because come on, it's all poison anyway. That's with justice. No matter what your case is, Maximumfund.org slash JJHO is the place to submit it. Rush to Maximumfund.org slash JJHO and submit your dispute with John. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximum Fun A worker-owned network Of artists' owned shows

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