Judge John Hodgman - Amicus Grief

Episode Date: October 22, 2014

  Will brings the case against his friend Moby. Moby has constructed a "friendship and acquaintance theory" that helps her navigate the relationships in her life. She's entirely upfront about which people in her life are acquaintances, and which are friends. She says it helps her maintain better relationships. Will thinks Moby has gone overboard with the theory, and it's alienating her from other people. Who's right? Who's wrong?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, amicus grief. Will brings the case against his friend Moby. Moby has constructed a, quote, friendship and acquaintance theory, unquote, that helps her navigate the relationships in her life. She's entirely upfront about which people in her life are acquaintances and which are friends. She says it helps her maintain better relationships. Will thinks Moby's gone overboard with the theory, and it's alienating her from other people.

Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents the obscure cultural reference. Jesse, begin dialogue. I read somewhere that you weren't actually going to sing the hook on that song. Yeah, I was trying to get my man TJ Swan, but he said he was doing his album. And then I tried to get I'll Be Sure. And then I tried to get Keith Sweat. I tried to get them to sing it, but they were busy doing their stuff.

So I said, I'll do it. Do you think it would have been as popular if Keith Sweat would have done it? Hang on. Can I get that with an extra fish sandwich? No, no, no. With a double cheeseburger. I kind of feel like it was you singing it that really put it over the top and made it that big. Hold on one sec. And a big fry. What? What were you saying? Do you think it would have been as big of a hit if Keith Sweat sung it. Well, as opposed to how you sung it. I think it would have still been a hit. Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the

truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he has no friends, only lovers? I do. Yes, I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? I do love

my friends. Sometimes twice a month. Moby and Will, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can you name the piece of culture that I was rather obliquely referencing in

that little dialogue there that I gave you before, as I entered the courtroom? Will? I cannot. You cannot. I cannot. I have no idea. And Moby, your name is short for? Mobina.

Mobina, but we call you Moby. And can you guess? No. Some sort of song. No. I don't know. Well, you're close. I'm not going to give it to you,

but I think you can probably figure it out from there. Just say it's a song about friendship. It's Friends by Houdini. Oh, Jesse, that would have been a good one. Friends, how many of us have them? Friends, ones we can depend on. Let's be friends. You guys just broke out in song is that okay yeah yeah that's because we're friends that's what friends do together okay i'm not sure

we're just speaking of it too we're using the word friend a lot more a lot too much okay we're using it too much for your taste i know this is exactly what this case is about. But friends sometimes burst into song when Houdini is involved. So it's not Friends by Houdini. It is a song that has a hook that is sung and is about friendship. And it was not sung by Keith

Sweat or Al Bishour or T.J. Swan, but by the original recording artist who does not have a very good singing voice. That's about as big of a hint as I can give you. Oh, no, I don't know anything about this. How about this? My favorite line from the song, which I wasn't going to quote because I figured you would

both get it. So I took Blah Blah's word for it at this time. I thought just having a friend couldn't be a crime because I have friends. And that's a fact. Like Agnes, Agatha, Jermaine and Jack. Will you have it now? Oh, yes. Yes.

What is it? Oh, wait. It's Biz Marquis, right? It is Biz Marquis. Just a friend? Just a friend by Biz Marquis. Yes. I am glad that I did not quote from the song because then you would have obviously gotten it and we would have been nowhere.

So here we are. No winners. Only friends just sitting around talking. Will, you actually both submitted this case and you both wanted to complain, but I found Will to be the most complainy of the complainants. Oh, my God, Will. What did you write? He didn't even show me what he wrote. What is your beef with your, and this is the point of contention,

your maybe friend or maybe acquaintance, Moby? So Moby has this thing called a friendship theory, which is a ranking system for people that she knows on layers of acquaintance and then friendship. When she meets people, she introduces her meeting with them by showing them the friendship as one friend characterized it. Hi, I'm'm moby you're not my friend um she will carry it around like a business card and give it to people um the friendship theory is printed on a business card well no it's printed

on pieces of paper and i'll slide it in color okay a. It's a document. So what you're saying, to clarify Will, Moby has a ranked system of friendship that involves various layers of acquaintanceship leading up to friendship. She carries around this declination of friendship as a handout flyer, a document.

A physical document or a PDF that she sends around to buy electronic mail? Both. Okay. And she literally at parties will say, you're not my friend to people. How does that work exactly? Yes. Let's do a role play. You're Moby and I'm

you at a party. No, I'm me. I'm not doing a role play with you. I only do role plays with my pals. Well, you're Moby and I'm me and you meet me at one of those wild sydney parties that i go to all the time you as moby how would you introduce yourself to me or if i were to introduce myself how does it work lead the way hi i'm i'm moby um how do you do on john hod? Oh, okay. I barely got my name out. Very good. Oh, my God. That is good.

Not me. Well, you'll have your chance, Moby. Don't interrupt our scene. Shut your pie hole. Oh. So you have a friendship theory. No, let's keep the role play going. Oh, you have a friendship theory.

What do you mean? I'm convinced that modern society overuses the word friend. I prefer the term acquaintance, and I will rank you. Oh, my God. I did not say that. I don't know. I don't say I'm going to rank you. At the moment, you are just, you are pre-acquaintance.

Well, Moby, let me say I agree with you that society does overuse the word friend. You didn't even give me a chance to explain it. You can't have him explain it. Moby, I want you to listen just for a moment. You may have heard me saying, well, Moby, I actually agree with you that friendship is overused. Let me now turn to the real

Moby so she can explain it further. You're in good hands with me, Moby. You don't have to yell through everybody. I'm going to make sure everyone gets treated fairly, my friends and enemies alike. That's what justice means. Okay. Now, before we go through the whole theory, which I confess I find fascinating, let me understand a little bit more about you guys. You live in Sydney, Australia, both of you. Is that right? That's correct.

Okay. Now I'm going to talk to Moby for a little bit, Will. So hush up. No problem. That's American for shut your pie hole. So Moby, may I ask, what is your age and occupation there in Sydney, Australia? I'm 25 and I work in the field of digital communication. Okay. And I'm going to ask you, Moby, what is Will's age, if you even bother to know, and his occupation? And how do you know each other? Will's 28.

Just had a birthday, I think, yeah. And Facebook doesn't tell me how old he is. He just tells me it was his birthday. And his occupation is, or he's studying right now, history and stuff. Yeah. Oh, okay. In a graduate program. Is that right, Will?

Are you 28? I am 28, yes. And I'm doing my PhD in history. Just to be clear, the University of Sydney has a legendary department of history and stuff. I'd like to just do a course in stuff, Jesse, you know what I mean? If I get a doctorate,

you know, cause I think in a lot of ways it encompasses history. Will, how do you know? And Moby, uh, know each other since you can't agree on whether or not you're friends. How do you know each other?

I met Moby through my wife. Okay. And would you, will, do you consider Moby a friend? Certainly. Okay. Moby, where on your friendship ranking scale does Will appear? Do you consider him a friend? Okay.

I'm going to answer it, and then I'll explain it after. Okay. Yeah. That's exactly right. Perfect. Will is AL 1.8. Okay? Yes.

I'm making a note. Which is acquaintance level 1.8. Acquaintance level 1.8. All right. That's right. Okay. Good. And the reason he is this is, all right, when you ask the question whether Will thinks Moby is a friend, both of us have different criteria, right? Sure. So Will's definition of a friend is pretty much anyone he likes, right?

Mm-hmm. My definition of a friend is what society would call a best friend, you know, where there's like mutual mutual feelings of love and you know about each other really well and you've had multiple deep discussions and they can come to you when things have gone really bad. You're the person they turn to. So this is why I would not call Will a friend because that's never happened before.

And I'm not saying it will never happen in the future. Maybe we do become closer. But at the moment, we're not friend. He is acquaintance level 1.8. Okay. So let's talk about your friendship acquaintance six-stage theory. That's right. We start at what's the lowest level?

So the lower level is pre-acquaintance, which is about 10% of people I know of. And then basically the criteria is we don't know each other or we only know each other's names only. So that includes strangers? That includes strangers and people who just know my name based on hearing about it from other people. So that's pre-acquaintance that's where that's where we would be yeah right yeah yeah okay next then there's acquaintance level one acquaintance level two acquaintance level three pre-friend and friend okay the the ones that i i won't ask you to go through all of the acquaintance levels because obviously if with your permission we'll put this up on our website. And they can take a look for themselves.

And they can take the quiz. Yeah, I agree, Will. Shut up. Jesse, give it to Will. Will, shut your pie hole. Thank you. There's a pie graph. There's a very colorful pie graph.

That's what sells the theory. Can I suggest a seventh stage? It usually does, believe me. Say again, Jesse. Can I suggest a seventh stage? Sure. It's does, believe me. Say again, Jesse? Can I suggest a seventh stage? Sure. It's where you become a beautiful butterfly. It's not about being a caterpillar.

I don't know how to answer that. The seventh stage is when you mentally join each other and your consciences entwine and you go traveling through the universe together to planets that have been gifted to you. Well, I've never experienced that, so I would never find it. No, no one has, because no one has fulfilled the full rankings of utter friendship in my cult that I'm starting, based on your friendship table. That does not sound good. table. That does not sound good. There's something so delightfully scientific about this highly subjective issue that it reminds me a little bit of, let's say, certain popular new religious

movements that may or may not be based in California, and Tom Cruise might have something to do with them. What are you associating my theory with? Nothing, but it's just L. Ron Hubbard made a lot of lists. And the fact that you would describe Will as not merely acquaintance level 2, which is already beautifully

scientifically specific, but that it gets to 2, no, excuse me, 1.8. Not merely acquaintance level 1. You don't quite yet preliminarily care about him. That or

she can't speak to me for 20 minutes without being bored. No, no, no, no, no. You can't say that because we've never spoken for 20 minutes one-on-one ever about anything. Yeah, but now it's starting. No, we have. We definitely have.

He may be jumping up the ladder, whether you like it or not, just by that. All right, so let's talk about the two ones. I mean, there are a lot of criteria here. Equations level one, we know of each other through mutual friends. You're a work colleague or a business client. We run into each other now and then by coincidence. Details about each other are superficial. And then two, you jump up to,

we usually meet in groups, rarely one-on-one. I can handle a 20-minute small talk chat with you any longer and I will get bored. That is your definition of acquaintance level two. And he's not even there yet. He's not even that. I would normally round someone up from 1.8 to two, but what makes Will a 1.8? Well well maybe i've just forgotten um i don't think we've ever had a one-on-one you came into the bookstore i was working at to pick up a jeffrey archer novel and i recommended a bunch of books to you many many books which you refused and we had a long conversation about how yeah but i just got bored listening to that. I'm sure she got bored before 20 minutes. But see, that wasn't like a plan. We worked with us on the video for our wedding.

I've known you for five years. Yeah, but we haven't talked one-on-one. I might have come in the bookstore, but I don't think it was 20 minutes. I was looking around for books. Yeah, you know, Will, I'm with Moby on this one. You know, it's like, yeah, she might want it. I want to be more than a 1.8, but we have to reach there. You got to, you got to trust the data.

There isn't a 20 minute conversation without boredom yet. Just, you know, you got to earn, you got to earn it. You can't just grab it. I'd like to ask a clarifying question. Moby, would you say that in order to move from one level of qualification to the next, you have to have demonstrated all of the qualities or is it enough simply to have the potential for all of the qualities? So if it's someone that you would gladly speak to for more than 20 minutes, do you have to have spoken to them for more than 20 minutes? That's correct. Because I feel like people lie and people say that they want to be closer to you and they don't. And that's sort of why there's criteria that it's not that hard to complete. It's not like I'm saying jump through this hoop.

I'm saying let's describe our friendship and which one does it go under. I get it. People, they smile in your face, but all the time they want to take your place. Backstabbers. And so the other one, go ahead, Moby. Well, I think people are opportunistic, like innately opportunistic. Like they want to try and sort of

see how they can, you know, in a way use people for certain things, whether it's using them for happiness because they make them feel good or making them feel important or giving them connections to other things and meeting other people. Like I feel like it's like that and I'm trying to navigate around it. This theory came from my personal experiences and that's why I'm so passionate about it and i

think that and it really does help me like i'm proof that it works like i have i have people that i fit in the categories this is a cult pitch you're pitching a cult right now no no i like i like this i want to hear about the proof that it works what's the proof that it works it means that i don't get hurt as much do you see like like like so many friends so what i've done is i talk to a lot of people as well um about the theory and initiates and starts up a whole discussion about their personal friends and where they place people and what issues they're facing and then i hear them out and then i sort of say well there you go this could have been solved if you talk to them and found out where you stand with one another. People don't tell each other where they stand with one another and it's always the case where one person wants to

be closer and the other person doesn't. And one person ends up getting hurt because when something bad happens, the person who's not as invested goes away. It runs away and the other person is left hurt and confused and don't understand what's going on. I thought that person was my friend. Why didn't they stick around and want to work on the friendship? This all comes from personal experiences, and it's basically a defense mechanism on how I can navigate society and friends and meeting people and be able to have this framework, you know, to work around. So you're talking about, and I think you're onto something very interesting here, a perceived intimacy imbalance where one person in a non-romantic relationship, a friendship or an acquaintanceship

will perceive that they are or should be closer friends than the other person perceives it to be. And therefore that causes hurt. Is that more or less what you're after here? Yeah, if there's no communication. Right. If people just said, well, I'm glad that you're an AL 3.8 for me, but unfortunately I'm just an AL 1.2 for you.

Oh, that's another thing. If it's not mutual, then you can't describe the theory. If you look right at the end like that's if you look at right at the end of my theory it says at the end of our friend note if it's not mutual then we're not friends everything has to be mutual you have to agree and that's the best thing about this theory is that there's no way one person can be 3.8 and one person can be 1.2 you you sort of it's sort of like did we go to school or uni together yes or no they're like yes or no sort of, it's sort of like, did we go to school or uni together? Yes or no. They're like yes or no sort of things. So it's just hard data, but it's seeded with subjectivity.

You know, if Will makes it to a 20-minute small talk chat with you, that's data, right? That should bump him up to AL too. But you have built into this, I can handle a 20-minute small talk chat with you and I will be bored after that. That's subjective that's you making a decision you know what i mean so i'm not sure that you can completely scientific guys it that's a word that's a word you guys come on no it's not but you know or or what's what's the what's the word quantify friendship but i but i think that there's something really interesting in the idea of

reserving friendship here in your ranking as I care immensely in every domain of their life. I can easily give my honest opinion. This person notices when I'm upset through subtle indications and we feel the same way about each other. And that defines friendship. And everything else is at some level of acquaintanceship. I think there's something very truthful and honest about that. And I admire that you can be honest with people about maybe, you know, you're not as close as they think you are. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So give me an example, though, of a situation where you or someone you know, a concrete example, was hurt by a difference in their perceived affection for one another. Okay, I've got a perfect one. Okay, so there was this guy who I met.

And as soon as I met him, I wanted to become, not as soon as, but as we were getting to know each other better, I was like, I want this person to be a friend. I want to have that, you know, that sort of closeness to him. To be a close friend by your definition. So by your ranking, he would be a pre-friend. Someone I wish were a friend as defined below and not as society currently defines it. That's right. So you identified subject X as a pre-friend someone i wish were a friend as defined that's below and not as society currently defines it that's right so you identified subject x as a pre-friend that's right subject x um and the only way for us to be friends if it's if he felt exactly the same way right so this is a pre-friend is the only level where it's not mutual and sort of you're sort of figuring it out now my

theory wasn't developed at that point, unfortunately. It was in my head, but I hadn't written it down and I passed it around. This was a few years ago. You hadn't received the transmission from the extraterrestrial entity that is guiding you currently. That's exactly correct. Absolutely. That's right. Okay. That's what I thought. By the way, I think it's amazing that your friend's name was Subject X

and I guessed it. Or your pre-friend. Your pre-friend. Okay, so pre-friend, you wanted to be friends with pre-friend Subject X. Yeah, and he didn't. But he didn't tell me. Right. Okay, so he, for example, wouldn't call me back if I called him or wouldn't text me until like a week later or ignore it altogether.

And although when we hang out, everything's cool. Sure. But he was – like he wasn't interested in like what's happening with my life or anything like that. He just wasn't interested. And so I met up with him and I said to him, hey, do you want to be friends, like proper friends like friends who do this who meet up regularly who answer calls and stuff like that and he was like you showed him all your charts and graphs well no nothing was written you didn't have the charts and graphs yet it was all in my head because like you know i just start it just started dawning like how can i um protect myself from

being hurt like i have in the past with other friendships other friends i'm very sentimental you realize the answer was charts and graphs. And he said, so this is before you had the charts and graphs, but you- Had it in my head. You had it in your head and you thought enough to say, do you want to be the kind of friend that I want to be? And he said- And he said, yeah, man, absolutely.

Totally. Okay. And I was like, oh, great. But he was lying. He was lying. Straight up lying. Right. Probably because he's either a monster or he was trying not to hurt your feelings, which

is just a different kind of monster. I think trying not to hurt my feelings. I think it was that. Because I'm still in contact with him. We're just not as close. I think he wanted to be more like AL2, AL3 maybe. You know what I mean? He just didn't have the vocabulary to express that because you hadn't written out your charts and your graphs yet.

He could have said, I don't want to be that close. But yeah, it's very hard for people to say because our society drills it into us that as soon as you meet someone or as soon as you work on a project, boom, you're friends. And you can use that as leverage or whatever. Or as soon as you accept them into your social network of choice, for example. Now, all of a sudden, they can call you up and ask you for favors and so forth. Yeah. But Will, what is the problem with this? I think what Moby is doing here is very interesting because we have these conversations, these

clarifying conversations all the time between people who, one person who may want to be in a romantic relationship with another and the other one doesn't, and you need to clear that air if that's not going to happen. No, I just want you to be a friend. I don't want you as a lover. Do you know what I mean? But the reality is that friendship, platonic friendship can be a very meaningful relationship. And if the same emotional energy is not returned, it can be very painful. So why not clear the air, Will? I think that clearing the air is one thing. I think that quantifying it in this manner is what I have an issue with.

I think that everybody thinks about these kind of issues. And I don't even have a problem that moby has a theory i'm more having a problem with her telling people their ranking why should you care well because i like i'm not the only person who has kind of been confronted by it you've been one it can be you're not the only person who's been 1.8 well i mean like i like a lot of people are quite kind of some people respond to it by kind of wanting to go up in ranks like they want to level up sure put in the experience points with Moby and then kind of go up a rank others yeah others will you know that's called friendship grinding or they'll pay someone in another country to put in the work sure yeah um and but but a lot

of other people are just kind of really confronted by you know suddenly having what is the kind of mystique that surrounds social interactions suddenly quantified and shoved in their face and i think that we we as as, we enjoy having that mystique. We don't like having things so kind of fake scientific, because it's not a theory, it's a model. But isn't it a self-correcting mechanism, Will? I mean, you say we as people like having that mystique. Obviously, Moby doesn't.

There may be other people in the world who share her disdain for subtlety and nuance, and she will obviously find those people with her chart. The people who respond to her chart are probably more likely to be her friends than the people who don't respond to her chart. Yeah, I mean, I understand why she has it, but I feel like it's pushing all these people away from her as much as well you're speaking you're speaking as a friend even though you are obviously as al 1.8 as i've ever seen anyone you're under this delusion that you're her friend and you're and you're and you're essentially mounting a friendly intervention which is allowable i think in friendship if you think that her behavior is doing her harm can you give me a concrete example of how her behavior is doing her harm? I mean, part of the intervention is because it's doing her harm, but part of the intervention is because it's doing other people's harm. Wait, when did this become an intervention?

Well, why else would one human being complain about another human being's personal choices in life unless he felt it was so destructive that he had to intervene. Otherwise, he's just being a busybody and a nosy person. So if you're not a busybody and a nosy person, and you think that this is causing her some kind of pain or she's losing opportunities or something, give me an example of how it is hurting her life, or we can shut down the international cable to Australia right away. I think it is that it's doing her harm, but it's also that it's doing other people harm.

And I trust that Moby doesn't want to do that. I don't think that she's the kind of person that is malicious towards other people. And so I think that the very fact of the knowledge that she's upsetting other people with this will, in fact, upset her in turn. I want to i want to get everyone upset right now who's who's getting hurt you're obviously in pain who else um like i i spoke to quite a few of my friends and most of them want to be free with this theory at least the ones that i spoke to and i don't know if the evidence was submitted but one of my

friends typed up a kind of a statement of wishing to be free of it well i don't and this is this is not somebody stand by let me somebody who's this is evidence this is testimony from one of moby's al3s yeah and i'm from an al3 has moby heard this evidence before no this is i don't believe so all right bailiff jesse do you have this evidence in front of you? I do have this evidence. Yes. Will you please read it aloud to the courtroom? And if you feel the need to skip portions just for time, you may. But why don't you read this aloud?

Once again, this is testimony from one of Moby's AL3s. We'll call this subject Y. Here's Moby's AL3s testimony. I used to subscribe to Moby's friendship theory and was a great believer, but after moving to Mobstown in Guyana and seeing her sinister work at play, I now believe the theory is inherently flawed and a crime against humanity. Let me just pause there for hyperbole and clarification. Oh my god.

Is Mobstown a place or is that the name of your apartment in Guyana? Presumably that's a metaphorical allusion to Jamestown. What is it, Will? Is that a place? I think it's more a metaphor for being within Moby's empire or cult. But Moby, you don't live in Guyana, do you? Empire, cult, what are these words? She definitely doesn't live in Guyana.

Well, I agree. Will, don't be inflammatory. But there's no— This is some—so subject Y, Moby's AL3, is not trustworthy because he or she doesn't know how to use metaphor properly. All right, I understand. Go on. You read. She once told me a certain mutual friend of ours befit the coveted title of friend, and was not merely an acquaintance

like the rest of us plebes. I was aghast. I was still ranked acquaintance level three, but I had known Moby longer than this so-called friend. What made her more worthy of that title than I? I shared a bed with Moby. That's the equivalent of living... Oh my god, I know who this is.

To cut a long story short, this friend... I'd like to hear that sentence. That's the equivalent of living... That's the equivalent of living in a post-apocalyptic zombie-infested nightmare. All right. The seriousness of this letter has just been undermined. Go on. Yeah.

To cut a long story short, this friend is no longer in that category. In fact, I hardly think she fulfills the rate of an acquaintance level three, since they are not on the best of terms. How could someone easily rise to the top of this friendship ivory tower so quickly, then crash like the waves of a tide while the rest of us languish at acquaintance level three? I think that she doesn't want the world to know this theory is more or less based on Moby's emotions and how much daytime TV and fancy brunches Moby has consumed for the week. I would also like to take this opportunity to revoke my acquaintance level three status

and formally declare myself a sovereign friend independent of her friendship theory imperialism. Yes, this flag, this flag bears fringe and therefore does not represent, this is not a court of the United States. Sovereign citizen friend. Subject Y, Moby's AL3. Moby, how are you feeling about this testimony? Okay. So I know exactly who that is.

I'm not surprised. There's only one person in this world who keeps exclaiming how we shared a bed together in public. I don't know. So this friend or I use the word friend because people do get confronted by the word acquaintance level unless they know. Should I just use my own definitions or? Yeah, use AL3 or subject why. Okay.

So AL3, we have never met up and had coffee together. And I invited her out for coffee a couple of times and she made a joke of it and we never met up. So we've never actually made the effort of meeting up or anything. If she wanted to be a friend, she could. But she's a very, very popular person. She has a million, billion friends. And I don't want to be categorized into what she defines as a friend because I do think in some way it is superficial.

If you don't meet up with someone for coffee, if you don't spend a lot of time together or if they can't notice you when you're upset or they don't know what your natural sort of responses are, they're not able to compare it to a time when you are upset. Do you know what I mean? I know this person for a long time and things like that. But this is why I'm not friends with her because we haven't met up for coffee or anything like that. Okay. So even though I don't want to go too much into your private life, but even though you've known her for a long time at some point or another you shared a bed uh she considers you a friend because she didn't accept your coffee invitation boom al3 for life well not not just that not for life yes okay fine for life but like when someone gets to know you really gets to know you they know

your natural sort of behavior and so they can compare it to when you are upset or angry and find out how you are. And I don't think she has that. And I don't think I have that from her exactly either. So what about this mysterious subject Zed will say now? That's Australian for Z, Jesse. Thank you. Thank you. So subject Y, this is the person who got bumped up to friend status, much to subject Y's anger because she felt it was unearned. She hadn't put in the time.

Great question. And has since gone on to say that subject Z has fallen out of the friend category. A, what was the reason that subject Z made it to friend and subject Y hasn't? And B, can you fall backwards in status? So with subject Z, we were spending a lot of time together. We were meeting up every week or talking to each other every week. I was staying at a house a lot. She went through an extremely rough time

and I was there for her and that brought us closer together. And we meet up and when she's upset, we talk it over. So we're much closer than I am with AL3, like obviously. And I'm only calling her AL3 because I'm not going to reveal her identity. But I don't call people AL3 like that. AL3s don't do that to one another. Yeah, I use their names. But yeah, so obviously I'm closer to subject Z than I am with subject Y because we met up more, we had more DNMs, she went through a rough time and I was there for her,

and that's what makes people closer, you know. Now, she has never, AL3, has never actually come to me and said, oh, I heard you and your friend were not doing so well. What happened there? She just immediately assumed that we're suddenly not friends and things like that. So I don't know why she didn't come up to me. She's that kind of false AL3 who goes around behind your back spreading all kinds of drama. That's it. You know, smiling faces sometimes pretend to be your friend yeah maybe

so yeah and so what happened with subject zed is that subject zed suddenly um stopped talking to me or she would go overseas and she wouldn't even let me know and so i i messaged her and i said and i tried to call her but she wouldn't answer my call and i messaged her and i said is everything okay between us i feel like like, you know, something's wrong. Let me know. You know, I really care about this friendship, blah, blah, blah. And she was like, no, everything's fine. But that kept happening.

And then that's when I sort of realized, oh, okay, she's not able to confront me or say what's upsetting her. And in true fashion, and what a lot of girls do is they cut and run. They'll just start ignoring the other girl immediately without even working on the friendship or anything. So that's what happened. Now that you know this about her, does that mean she is no longer a friend by your categorization or that she never was a friend?

You were tricked into believing she was a friend, but really was more like AL2. Well, I kind of feel used because it started becoming more about her than about being mutual. And I just thought maybe she needed time and sort of, you know, I noticed that imbalance. And when I see such an imbalance, I'm like, okay, that's a danger zone. And then I found out that it was starting to become that way. And I don't leave a friendship. I try and work on it. Any sort of level you're on, I work on it.

Like, I never leave something off, you know, hanging. But Moby, you say that your system, your friendship theory is designed to prevent precisely this kind of emotional pain in you and other parties. It's like I can't – I always think that being really communicating a lot and stuff like that would help. And an example I can give you is with a couple that's dating. They're dating. They're very intimate. They're very close. And you still get some people who are so shocked by being dumped or a married couple who suddenly one person

finds out that the other person wants a divorce and it's because the other person's not communicating with me. Right. And so what I find a solution for that. So every time an issue comes up with a theory, I try and find a solution and the solution I found for that is regularly checking in on them. Like sort of saying, how are you feeling about the friendship? And I think there's nothing wrong with that. I think that we do that well i disagree i feel like we do

that with romantic relationships we say hey i noticed that you're not you know hugging me as much or you're not saying i love you as much as every is that what's wrong and you do that in a relationship but what about friendship friendship is just as important as romantic relationships oh i think checking in with uh with a friend every now and then if you feel something's wrong it's absolutely important to say is there something wrong is i do something to piss you off can i explain you know what i mean and that's equally important for a romantic relationship as well but i mean regular like i wouldn't suggest that you do this every three weeks even if you're married to the person

that would be extremely extremely intrusive and paranoiac, I would say. Okay. Did I say three weeks? You made that up. I did make it up, but you said regularly. So what is that? Since it's your theory, what is the regular check-in period required by the theory to maintain friendship?

Maybe like, I don't know, once every few months, like three, four months. That's fair. And just, four months, you know, and just sort of saying, you know, you can come to me. As a performance review. Yeah, but it's like not, it's not like, it's scientific, I get it, but this is what people do naturally anyway.

I'm just putting it down on paper. It's not scientific, stop saying that. Well, hang on. Well, I've studied French. Moby, I'm sorry that that was a painful uh friendship or issue for you but now i just want to go over to will will i'm getting tired of hearing you chuckle in the background you are so happy that you exploded this huge drama bomb into the middle of my podcast stirring the pot between al3 and moby i don't like it i should have known about

the evidence that was it was a surprise evidence, a surprise witness. This was just one of multiple people. Yeah, but that whole message is a bit rubbish. But Will, I'm going to tell you right now, AL3 is not hurt. That is not testimony from a hurt person. That's a joke. That is someone who makes a zombie joke in the middle of her letter she talks about mobstown and as and as moby points out this is a this is a person with

a lot of what society what she calls friends but what i'm sure moby you would say her large circle of acquaintances are like al twos and ones right al twos and ones and threes and you're talking hundreds of people. She doesn't value friendship in the same way that Moby does. She's just stirring the pot, just like you, Will. I mean, if I'd known someone

who was actually quite hurt by it... Yeah, if you did, sure, that would be compelling evidence. If you bring it onto the podcast, it would be... Oh, I see. So do you know such a person? Yes or no? Do you know such a person um i i think yes or no do you know such a person yes okay i think you just want to win this argument you're what you

can't talk about it yeah yeah there's so much pseudoscience going on here i can prove that it's true but i can't reveal the information scientifically this person was my friend until i determined they weren't my friend. But if you think about it, it's not out of the realm of possibility, even if it wasn't the case. Of course, it's not outside the realm of possibility, but this is a fake internet court of reality.

Hells yeah, man. Can you give me a concrete example of how Moby has been hurt? Well, in a sense, what you did was you tried to show how other people have been hurt by Moby's theory of friendship. But in fact, what you showed inadvertently, unless you're a genius of fake internet law, how Moby was hurt by her own system, because she believed subject Zed was a friend. And it turned out that subject Zed was not quite the friend she thought it was going to be. Is that not so, sir?

Yeah. And I mean, this is the best summation of your case that you're going to get. That happens all the time. I mean, friendships aren't like easy. And I don't think having this kind of level of the facade of science around it makes that any less the case. Moby, final arguments from you. Why should I allow you to continue to hand out weird flyers at parties instead of making conversation? Go.

John, I have a degree in psychology and a master's in digital communication and culture. I've studied online friendships and sort of the psychology of how we socially interact with one another. So I have that sort of that psychology of how we socially interact with one another. So I have that sort of background. I also do have a lot of friends, and I do have a lot of superficial friends and acquaintances. So a lot of this theory is built around my actual experiences. It's not like I've just made it up.

There are actual experiences that I can easily sort of bring out. And I think that I don't enforce this theory on anyone else except I enforce it on myself. So, I, in order to protect- But that's not true. No, no, no, no, no. It is. It has to be mutual.

I will allow that objection. Can you opt out? Can I say to you, I opt out of this friendship theory. Rank me however you like in private, in your diary or whatever, but don't talk to me about this. If they don't agree that in friendship you have to have an honest conversation with each other about where you stand, they don't have to be my friend because that's a deal breaker for me.

But you're defining honest conversation about where you stand as adhering to your ridiculous theory. It's not ridiculous, though. That's where i have to step in well that's not something even an al 1.8 would say to an al 1.8 there is an opting out which is that they stop talking to moby or they just say i don't want to hear about that anymore you can bring it up but i'm not listening yeah i mean you know you are immediately drop them in ranks because they've yeah but if they've opted

out if they've opted out they don't care then if they want to be friends with moby too for everything else like for you know they want to be friends with moby for you know who she is apart from this specific thing then you know then there's no capacity for them to do that i have one final question yes there is if they make the effort they can be friends with me but none of those people i guarantee you have called me up and said, I really want to be better friends with you. I really want to meet up with you and get to know you more. None of those people have done that.

And what this theory does, it weans out the fake people and the people who want to use the friendship and say, oh, yeah, I'm friends with Moby. That's what it weans out. It weans out the fake people. But you're defining the fakes as people who don't agree with the theory. No, no, no, no, no. Hello. Okay. Moby, do you accept that the fakes as people who don't agree with the theory. No, no, no, no, no.

Hello. Okay. Do you accept that there might be someone who might enjoy your company very much and that the relationship might grow from acquaintance to friendship and a very serious and meaningful friendship, but that they might be put off by being given a questionnaire and the theory initially, and that that might never happen as a result. This is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. You can't observe a reaction without affecting it. Can you not accept that? She'll be quiet. Well, I'm trying to make your, your anger and attacks palatable to a human

being. Sorry. I'm so sorry. Okay. So you'd be interested to know that I do have someone who I regard as a friend who does not like the theory. But we're still friends because he has made the effort and we have that meaningful connection and we are really good friends. And he doesn't believe in the theory. He doesn't really like it. He thinks it's, you know, it is ranking people. But he's made the effort and we are friends. Like, you don't have to like the theory to be my friend, but those people, Will, that you're talking about who hate the theory, one, have never spoken to me about it because damn it, I'm really nice and I understand all the

complexities and the issues about my theory. Usually when people talk to me about it and then figure it out, they've realized that where it's coming from is not a place of judgment or telling people, you know, where they, you know, I'm ordering them on where, what, how they should be with me. Do you understand why people would get that impression that they're being ranked against each other? Well, you know what? The fact of the matter is one thing that friends do is they tolerate each other's weird eccentricities. All right.

I think I've heard everything I need to hear. I am going to go into my chambers and I'm going to consult with my very close friends, the dust motes and the sunlight coming through the window. And I will, I'll be back in a moment to render my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Moby, how are you feeling about your chances in this case? I'm so confident I'm going to win because I know myself and I know people. I know social interaction. I know how fake people can be.

And so this theory is strong. It's strong and people can connect to it. I'm looking at this list. I'm worried that I'm still pre-acquaintance. I thought maybe through the course of this I would have made it to al1 but we haven't ever run into each other by coincidence that's right we just met so the fact of the matter is we are pre-acquaintance but what i would do is where do you want to stand with me like after the show are you going to contact me i want to keep the friendship maybe maybe not how often do

you do that with the people you you know interview in court this is work for you like you know i've never done that but i've also never been involved in a competition-based system where i have to build up points and the desire to build up points is overwhelming on what you want okay i want to know what i want to know the specific if i say all that stuff which level do i get we'd I get? You'd have to actually do it. I'd have to actually become close to you for us to be at acquaintance level three or something. Will, how are you feeling about your chances in the case? Not particularly confident, to be honest. I think that it depends on how much the judge thinks people have a right to harm others in pursuit of self-defense mechanisms.

Well, I think it upsets people. I mean, it certainly... Will, I'm going to interject here. Will, does this hurt you? I will admit that I was perturbed when I discovered that I wasn't even acquaintance level two. I think I figured I was about 2.5. Um, and I think it like,

you never talked to me about it. You never brought it up with me about it. Well, I think that a lot of people attack the friendship to you, but I don't think you view it. You understand where that's coming from. no one has ever, no one has ever come and sat with me and said,

let's talk about our friendship and where we stand for another but they might not necessarily like not everybody rationalizes things in that that way like the way that you view talking about friendship is through the lens of the theory itself guys i'm gonna stop this here because i feel that we've already litigated this case and there's no need to relitigate it. Jesse, can I just say one thing? No. I would like to offer both of you a ranking of FFA in my system,

which is that ranking corresponds to Future Friendlies of America, if you're interested. We'll find out what Judge John Hodgman has to say when we come back in just a minute. I listen to Bullseye to be cooler and more cultured than the people who don't know about Bullseye yet. Of course, then I tell them about Bullseye, so it doesn't usually work for very long. Bullseye is your guide to what's good from MaximumFun.org and NPR.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. If anyone who's listening wants to take Moby's friendship acquaintance quiz, we will provide a link for it online at MaximumFun.org with this episode. something um that is perhaps discomforting to will and certainly is enraging to subject why her al3 social butterfly friend see i knew that butterflies would get into this which is that friendship has been devalued the concept of friendship is now a debased coin, largely, I think, because of social media and other superficial ways that we connect and share often very intimate parts of ourselves, but in a kind of a remote way. Now, I don't want to offend anyone with whom I am friends on any social media, but you're not my friends. You know that, right? Like, you're not all my friends. Some of you are there because I pressed a button wrong, or I liked your picture picture or you said something funny one time and then this ongoing

perpetual relationship occurs that is not friendship it is it is something else the problem is and i think moby appreciates this working in social media and digital media is actual friendship is not merely based on trust and funny jokes and affection and good times and coffees. Friendship has with it a certain obligation. Friendship is a drag. It is making yourself vulnerable to another person and it can be painful and it evolves and it changes. And it means that you're going to support another person who may or may not be able

to support you back at the right time or in the right way or ever. And for that reason, to me, best friendship means having someone around who you don't talk to at all and ask nothing of you and you don't say anything to them and they don't ever ask anything of you. Thank you, Jonathan Colton. And for that reason, I will help Jonathan Colton if he is hanging from a cliff. However, as Moby understands, there is now an almost implied friendship and even the smallest interactions in real life and on the internet. And I think that creates anxiety. We've lost the calmer expectations to some degree in society of acquaintanceship because there is such perceived intimacy these days. Acquaintanceship, collegiality, paldom, you know, the critical social understanding that makes ship sales and societies work, that we're in it together, I like you fine,

but we are going to leave each other more or less alone. And there's nothing wrong with that. I can't restrict Moby, obviously, and you had to know this going in, Will, that you're going to lose, right? I thought there was the possibility that you might rule that people can opt in or out. I know you had thought of a lot of possibilities in life, but the reality is that's a given. That's already a given. People can opt in or out as they like. Do you know what I mean? But she won't stop talking about it.

You can say, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to be classified in this way. Yeah, don't stop talking about it. Hey, guys, this is to hear like i don't know well then you then you stop talking about it hey guys this is my time my time stop fighting i'm resolving all of your disputes forever thank you oh my god yes the fact that she won't stop talking about it which is clear and the fact the the fact that it is off-putting, which I think is equally clear, despite the fact that I trust and know that she is a really nice person or else she wouldn't have as many friends as she does. You know,

that's, that's part of being part of, all right, easy, easy. The fact that she won't stop talking about it is her choice. And everyone else in the world has a choice whether or not to deal with that or not and if you're your friend maybe that means putting up

with that in the same way that having a friend who um i hate to put it this way but it comes to mind farts a lot that's something you endure or maybe they wear a doctor who scarf all the time that's something you endure even though that's not a choice you would make for them, even as their close friend, friends are independent free agents. Do you know what I mean? And they can do whatever they want. And at some point you may not realize it will,

but you're running your own math. Even if it's not as, as categorized and, and, and open to the public as Moby's is. You're running your own math on who are people close to you and who aren't. You've got your own private code. What Moby is doing that is so provocative is that she's letting the world know her math.

And though by the basis of her theory, everyone has to agree to her theory in order for them to be her friend. That necessarily limits the number of people who are going to be her friend, but I don't think she wants that many friends anyway. Where I do take exception, however, and where I do agree with you, is this. This is not science, Moby, not science. The data that you're collecting is rough around the edges. And I think you do no one a disservice by drawing people into broad categories of levels of friendship so that you can sort of more or less know where people stand and how much time and emotional investment you're going to put into a relationship. And there's nothing wrong with you expressing where people stand in your estimation and affection. This is just, as you say, it's just communication.

But at this point, you know, you've already acknowledged that there is someone who worked through the system and hit the data points for friend, but then it turned out that they maybe they weren't being truthful with you. And that hurt. And the only reason that I take you to task for this, the fact that this is pseudoscience. And I think that it is because essentially you come to the conclusions and then you develop the data to support it after the fact, like she wasn't my friend because blah, blah, blah. She lied about this, that, and the other is that your whole point of putting this all

together is to protect yourself. And you have, you know, look, you have a degree in psychology. I don't. But I would say that you've made reference quite a few times over the course of this conversation of ways that you have been hurt. And while I have no problem with your having this system, if you are under the illusion that it is going to protect you from hurt, I think that you've already seen the error in your ways because it didn't.

It didn't work in this one particular instance. Maybe for the most part it does, but be aware you're still going to get hurt. You do what you want with your life. That is one of the tenets of this court. But as an acquaintance at best, I will say that you seem like a very charming, funny, smart person. There is a lot of anxiety underlying and confident too, by the way, there's a lot of anxiety that's underlying this system. A lot of anxiety about, um, making sure everyone's open, making sure everyone's at a mutual level to guard against hurt. You're going to check in. You're going to

make sure this person didn't go out for coffee. This person, there's a lot of tests. You say that there aren't a lot of hoops, but AL3 didn't make it in simply because she didn't respond to an introduction to coffee. And I would only say as another human being. But that's after five years of knowing her. Right.

You don't have to. No, I feel you. You don't have to change your behavior in any way. But I will tell you that that anxiety makes me anxious and makes me want to keep you at about AL2. Do you see what I'm saying? Now, I don't know if you're a pre-friend for me, but I'm just letting you know that there is an effect that talking about this stuff has on other people, which makes it seem what may very well simply be true. stuff has on other people, which makes it seem what may very well simply be true, that you have very high expectations of what a friend should be, and that you're watching people carefully and you're gauging their reactions, and that there are missteps that

could send you down the ladder. That, I think, creates a level of anxiety that is something other than friendship or does not encourage friendship. Now, this could be the refiner's fire by which you find the perfect friends for you, the people who can hack it and get up to that ladder. That's great. And from a practical point of view, I have no problem with what you're doing. From a scientific point of view and from an interpersonal point of view, I would say, I don't think that it's science. I don't think that it is as sufficiently protective as you think it is. And I would say that you should be, you know, be aware, since we're trying to communicate

openly here, that in this one data point alone, I feel like it would take me a little bit longer to want to get to know you and be your friend. And this is an honest reaction, not just sort of a hypothetical, but it would take me a little bit longer than if this weren't a part of your life but you know that's fine that's the way it goes we can be acquaintances i think the baseline the big message that everyone should take away from your your theory which i think is very valuable is that it's okay to be acquaintances do you know what i mean yeah it's not a derogatory term exactly you should will should stop complaining and whining because the whole world doesn't love him as much as he wants them to because he's obviously a narcissist. It's not necessarily that he doesn't love him.

It just doesn't. No, I know. Will and I care about each other on the same level. We just call it something different. Well, but you should also be open to the idea that you love each other or like each other or whatever it is on different levels. And that's okay too. Do you know what I mean? And I would say that, you know, from my point of view, having, you know, there are lots of people that have been pre-friends in my life who did not care to reciprocate friendship. Uh, and it's, that's a painful thing to do, but ultimately, you know, that you find the people that are your people. And, and, uh, you know that you find the people that are your people. And, you know, if someone doesn't live up to your expectations,

there's a great release in not giving a feces. That's an American expression. So you have your system of friendship. I have my system of friendship. By the way, well, I'm sorry I called you a narcissist, but I think I'm closer to the truth than you might think. And here is what just for fyi you may take it or leave it no one it is not necessarily mutual no one needs to agree with my theory of

friendship or whatever but here are my principles of friendship try to be around people who make you genuinely feel happy and not anxious or sad or weird or whatever gently disengage from people who make you feel bad and and don't care at all about how you feel and don't care about those people anymore. Do more favors than you ask for. Remember, it always hurts to ask. Let people know when you are genuinely thinking nice things about them, but be alert to the more frequent times when you are not thinking about anyone but yourself at all. And then remember that we're all like this. We're all mostly thinking about ourselves. So if someone lets you down, let them off the hook. You're letting plenty of people

down all the time in small and big ways. And it's just how it goes being an individual human being. Don't sit on the same side of a booth at the restaurant, even if you're lovers. Don't leave a lot of voicemails. Please don't write long emails and be nice and that's all you need to do so that's my theory i think it stacks up pretty good but i don't know i don't know whether it would work in australia uh the baseline though is that uh i appreciate will's concerns and i hope you don't mind will that i re-express some of your concerns as my own um that said it is moby's life to live as she sees fit. And I think that this system is interesting, especially as it, uh, it reemphasizes how important and okay acquaintanceship is over friendship. And, uh, and I think that it's a practical way for her to find the people that she, that

cares about the same thing she does. So I find in her favor, this is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Moby, how are you feeling right now? I feel really good, mainly because I've won, but also because I really respect a lot of what John has said. No one's ever said those things to me before.

And I feel like there is I could improve the way in which I do engage people on the theory. And I definitely have learned on how I can be better. Yeah. And better explaining the theory to avoid. I never really thought about how other people do get hurt. So that's something I'll look into. Will, how are you feeling? Good in that I think that Moby needed to hear this.

I don't think she was hearing it from anyone else. So I think that it's good that someone she respects was able to say it to her. But bad in that I've just given her a massive platform to spread the theory. Oh my God. Yes. I'm going to send this recording to everyone.

A lot of people. And I'm going to be told off. I can already hear it. Well, well, Moby, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you very much.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft.

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Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will.

Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Judge Hodgman. Yeah, Jesse, can you give me a ride to the airport and also a massage?

And also read my novel? I thought we were friends! I would do... A real friend wouldn't say, um, go on. I would do those things. Well, I mean, my main concern is the ride to the airport, because you live in Brooklyn and I live in Los Angeles. Oh, I'm sorry.

I didn't realize your friendship was conditional. But maybe if it was like a ride to O'Hare somewhere in the middle. Fly to New York and give me a ride to O'Hare. That's all I'm asking. Hey, we're friends, right? Yeah, right? We're pals. I care about you.

I care about... We've had important conversations. For 21 minutes one time, so just over the line. Yeah, thank God I was running the stopwatch. Judge Hodgman, are you headed out on the road anytime in the next few weeks? In fact, Jesse, I am currently on the road, but depending on when this episode comes out, you may be in time to see me on Thursday, 23rd October at the Rex Theater in Pittsburgh, Thursday, 23rd October at the Rex Theatre in

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania with all new material. I will then be in November traveling to Burlington, Vermont on the 19th of November, Lebanon, New Hampshire on the 20th of November, Northampton, Massachusetts on the 21st of November, and Hartford, Connecticut

on the 22nd of November with I am happy to say as of this recording, a not-so-surprised guest of Jonathan Fresh Banana Man Niderer. Ooh. Maybe I'll just say Jonathan Fresh Banana Man because I'm not sure I know how to pronounce his last name. I've never said it out loud before.

Isn't that awful? Yeah, it is. That just kicked you guys down below acquaintance level one, I think. AL.5. Yeah, it is. That just kicked you guys down below acquaintance level one, I think. He is going to make the trip from Maine to Hartford with his wife, and you should come out and see him and me. And I look forward to seeing you all. And of course, at each and every one of these events, I'll be hanging out afterward and signing and handshaking. Ebola be damned, I'm going to shake all your hands. I would like to thank everyone who participated in MaxFunWeek.

What a wonderful time. And, you know, that was a special week dedicated to our listeners, but every week is dedicated to you, the listener. We really appreciate not just that you listen to the shows,

but that our work is supported by, you know, your voluntary donations. That really means a lot to us, and we're very grateful to you. So thank you very much. That was a really fun time talking to all those different people from the different MaxFun podcasts. And I got some new favorites that I'm going to listen to, and it's going to be great. Our show is edited by Mark McConville, produced by Julia Smith. This week's episode was named by Christian Philippe.

You're the one that speaks French, Hodgman Royo. Merci beaucoup, Christian Royo. If you want to name an episode of Judge John Hodgman in the future, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. You can also follow us on Twitter. I'm at Jesse Thorne. I'm at Hodgman, H-O-D-G-M-A-N. You can also join the MaxFun group on Facebook, which is facebook.com slash maximumfun.org.

And you can join the Maximum Fun group on Reddit, which is reddit.com slash r slash maximumfun. In addition to chatting about this episode in our forum at forum.maximumfun.org. Thank you so much, everybody. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Sick Semper Justice. Still working on it. I can't get a good catchphrase to leave on. Court is adjourned.

Everyone go home from this court. We'll try those three. See which one sticks. Good night, everybody. Maximumfun.org Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.