Judge John Hodgman - An Undigested Bit of Beef LIVE in Brookline

Episode Date: December 3, 2025

Experience the magic that is Judge John Hodgman and Bailiff Jesse Thorn LIVE in Brookline! In this episode of Road Court, the Judge decides how much of those tasty leftovers are worth saving, marvels at the wonders of a Bronze Hotdog (still not a sandwich!), and litigates whether an uncle who hates A Christmas Carol is, in fact, a Scrooge. Does an apple pie that is extremely close to a cheesecake deserve an award for pie, or is it stolen culinary valor?Huge thanks to Samantha Couture from the Massachusetts Historical Society! If you want to know more about that bronze hot dog, listen to this episode of the MHS' podcast The Object of History. Follow the MHS on Instagram at @mhs1791.It’s the holidays! Get your JJHo merch at MaxFunStore.com! Right and wrong caps, Pure Justice Smell candle, and cozy gothcozyclothes! And a ticket to see us in January at SF Sketchfest makes a LOVELY gift! Sunday, January 18 at Marines’ Memorial Theatre, on sale now!We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman!Thanks to reddit user u/Hyphum for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Join at $5 a month at maximumfun.org/join!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff, Jesse Thorne. With me is Judge John Hodgman. And this is a very special episode of our program. Yeah, they say you can't go home again. I guess that person never heard of trains, planes, or automobiles. Because I went home with you to my hometown of Brookline, Massachusetts, and my other home, the Coolidge Corner Theater,

where I used to work as a teenager, to present this wonderful live episode of Judge John Hodgman, in Brookline, Massachusetts. We heard disputes about leftovers. We heard disputes about pies. We heard disputes about Charles Dickens' The Christmas Carol, or I'm sorry, A Christmas Carol. I guess maybe Charles Dickens going to write another one.

Who knows? We also spoke with Sam Couture from the Massachusetts Historical Society about a priceless artifact in the museum's collection. Let's go to the stage at the John Hodgman Memorial Coolidge Corner Theater. people of brookline you asked us for live justice and we are here to deliver it the court of judge john hodgeman is now in session please welcome to the stage jordan and sarah

Jordan brings the case against his wife Sarah. Jordan says that Sarah leaves a few morsels of food on her plate at dinner, even when she's still hungry. Then she carefully stores these leftover morsels in the fridge, usually to rot. Jordan says these morsels are trash. Sarah says she wants her morsels. And to me, I'm just tired of saying the word morsels. Judge Hodgman, thank you very much. Here I am.

Jordan and Sarah, you may be seated. Welcome to the Court of Judge John Hodgman. Who seeks justice in this court? Who brings the case? I do, Your Honor. And you are Jordan. That's correct. Tell me about the morsels. They are quite small, Your Honor. Quite small morsels? That's correct. It is often the case that my lovely wife will leave only the smallest amount of food, even if she is still hungry. She will leave it on the plate. She will often put it in a Tupperware, and these will often accumulate to the point that it becomes, I believe it, an inconvenience.

An inconvenience. Your lovely wife, who is a whole human being in her own right? How do you respond, Sarah? It's mostly true. Mostly true. Let's take a look at a typical leftover. I believe that we have an image. Obviously, the images will be available.

on the Judge John Hodgman show page and our Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. For the audience at home, we're looking at what might be a pad tie. I might guess it's a pad tie. And what we're seeing here is a used lime. That's even grossed in the word morsel. A used lime.

A tiny piece of... of chicken? Tiny piece of chicken. And what, frankly, may be one noodle. A noodle. A long, twisty, single noodle, but one noodle. Sarah, was this your dinner at one point? Yes. Did your husband ask to take a picture of your dinner? Yes. I see. And were you full at this time? I believe in this case, yes, I was. And so you decided to save this? Is this a a noodle that you saved? I don't remember if I saved this. I think Jordan finished this.

And I would say that that's a good amount of the time. I don't feel like my morsels are a problem because usually Jordan will just eat them in the moment. Yeah, Jordan, you're a big old garbage disposal, right? Why is this even an issue? Like, I would eat that noodle right now. I'm frankly reaching towards the screen. Everything you have said is true, Your Honor.

When we are together at dinner, and if I have the room for a morsel, I will finish. Are we still saying this word? How did this even come up? Ugh. And this, by the way, this morsel, it's a moist one. It's a moist morsel. If we are together, but we don't eat every meal together. And I sometimes eat to the point of being satiated and do not want anymore.

Do you live here together in Brooklyn? or the Boston area, whatever. Or whatever, yes. Which is it? We live in Brighton. In Bright, very nice. And, okay, so when Jordan is not home and you save a morsel, why is it important to save a noodle or leftover bite or two?

I try to at least plan on eating it later. Okay. I don't like the idea of it going to waste. Because you don't like food waste. Yes. Is this something you like food waste? learned from someone? I think it's definitely in part

a learned behavior. I have family members who I grew up around who have a similar habit. You come from a morsel saving family. Yes. Okay. Yes. All right. Jordan, what's the worst rotted morsel you've ever encountered?

It's not the individual rotting morsel. It's the accumulation of rotting morsels. I think it could almost get to the point where a good chunk of the fridge is Tupperware that I imagine is saved, is, is eatable food, but is not. It becomes kind of a mold farm at a certain point. Your whole refrigerator is full of moldy. I wouldn't say my whole refrigerator, but far too much of it. Uh, has Sarah ever saved two banana slices?

I was told to ask that by Jennifer Marmer. She has, yes or no, sir. Yes or no? No, sir. The family environment that she grew up in was accustomed to saving such amounts of food. Sarah, what's the smallest number of banana slices you've ever saved for future consumption? I don't know if I've ever saved banana slices specifically. Okay. But I have saved maybe like one and a half meatballs.

One and one half meatballs. Like about like golf ball size. Okay, little little meatballs. Yes, yes. And did you end up eating them? did they rot? I did end up eating those. And in what form did you eat them?

I mean, if it were me, it would be three o'clock in the morning standing in front of the fridge. I think I added them to whatever I was making for dinner the next day or the next couple days. So it's not all going to waste then, Jordan. No, it's not a thorough going pervasive problem. It's a problem often enough that the accumulation grows. Jordan, in your original petition, you wrote to us describing Sarah's leftover morsels

as, quote, an oppressively small amount of food. Very interesting co-option of the term oppression. How in any way is this oppressing you? Because I often am the one that ends up dealing with the rotting food in the fridge. Is that true, Sarah? I don't dispute that. All right, I think I know enough to make my decision. Here's the deal.

I also abhor food waste, and I also save morsels for use later on. And I also very much enjoy throwing away the things that I saved. I believe that you should continue to save your morsels and continue to be thrifty and endeavor faster to make use of them, but you should also police those containers. Not that Jordan really has a case here, but for your own peace of mind and tidiness of the refrigerator, Sarah, toss your morsels when it's time, use your morsels before their time. This is the sound of a gavel.

Thank you, Jordan, and Sarah. Swift, we've got to be swift. You understand. Swift Justice continues. Thank you so much. Please welcome to the stage, Samantha. Well, that's just one...

That's one person. Samantha. Samantha brings the case against Judge John Hodgman. This is unprecedented. Jennifer gives me the paper and I read from it. Okay. Samantha works at the Massachusetts Historical Society. Last year, she offered...

Hang on. Hold for applause for the historical society. Quite right. Last year, Samantha offered to bring a priceless artifact from the society for Judge Hodgman to admire on stage. Judge Hodgman agreed to this kind offer, then promptly ghosted Samantha. Samantha says Judge John Hodgman cheated the audience of its chance to witness this piece of Massachusetts history. John Hodgman says he doesn't even care because he's a heartless monster.

That's not what I... That's not what I say. I know that's all right, ma'amon. Because he's a heartless monster. monster. That's what it says there. Judge Hodgman. Hello, Samantha. It's nice to meet you in person. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Oh, good. So I do owe you an apology. It is true that you wrote me before our show in Boston last year and you were like, I have this incredible artifact that I think your audience would enjoy. and I was like great idea

and then I never wrote you again we did the show nothing I went to the show I'm sorry it was very good it was very good oh thank you very much I appreciate that but it was missing something wasn't it yes and you very kindly

wrote me again and said what the hell and I apologize but before we get to the item at hand please tell me about the work that you do at the Massachusetts Historical Society. I'm the conservator and preservation librarian for this

society. And I mean, I think the audience, do you mind sharing your full name with the audience? Oh, yeah, Samantha Couture. Samantha Couture, when I said the word Samantha Couture is going to be here tonight, do you know who freaked out?

No. Josh Cantor, the organist of Fenway Park. He was like, oh, this is this is Boston Nerd Royalty coming in here. Like, he just went on and on backstage, like, well, no, she's probably one of the best conservators in the state, if not the entire region. Well, I haven't met her, but her reputation certainly perceives her. Yeah, exactly. So, what kinds of things do you conserve in the Massachusetts Historical Society?

Lots and lots of manuscripts written by people like John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and... Carly Estramsky. Yeah. Not yet. But you also, we have a photo of an item, not the item that you want to share with us tonight, but a different item, which we can take a look at now. This seems to be a glass pig full of dried beans. Yes. Did this belong to John Adams?

No, it was sent to a fellow named Charles Osgood. It was an invitation to a pork and bean supper, which was, it was sent in a little crate. And it has the little wrapper around the belly gives to it. details on where to go. And the little bean-shaped paper at the bottom there tells the train tables on how to get to the farm where the party was to take place in 1875. Wow. And it was also a, it was a 15th anniversary party. I just celebrated my 25th anniversary with my wife, was a whole human, being in our own right. I didn't send anyone a glass pig. Well, John, unlike the 15th anniversary,

the 25th anniversary is not the pork and beans anniversary. That's that's true. I forgot. Speaking of pork and beans, the item that you wanted to share with us is very special. And did you like my transition there? Very well. Thank you. I appreciate. And I don't know whether we should go to the photo or the item. Let's open the item and then show the photo. By the way, this is an incredible box that you brought. You've brought it in what appears to be a Pelican case, which are advertised as being shark-proof. It's my husband's concertina case. Oh, boy, oh boy. Nerd legends of Massachusetts.

Power couple. We should explain. Her husband is a trained monkey. Is your concertina playing a husband in the audience right now? Yes. Where? Did you bring your concertina? No. Why not? Did you know we were having a show tonight?

The concertina does make monkey sounds. Okay. The concertina does make monkey sounds. Well, hang on a second. Your wonderful spouse has put on her conservatory gloves, and you're going to remove the item, and maybe put it on that little table over. there. Yeah, I think that's... I don't want the oils on my hands to oxidize on the metal.

So we do know it's metal and we do know that your hands are oily. So other than that, does anyone have a guess of what it is? Anyone? A gavel? Interesting guess. Cheese? A kazoo. A kazoo made of cheese. All guesses are wrong. The answer is a bronzed hot dog. Let's look at the picture please. Would you mind putting it on that display table there? And then you can come back to the microphone and perhaps explain what it is we're looking at and why we're looking at it? When I first started at the society, there was this hot talk on display. And it was given to... The first sentence of many a short story. Yes. Henry Cabot Lodge, who was

running for vice president with Richard Nixon. And if I may read one paragraph of the letter that was sent to Henry Cabot Lodge with the hot dog. I will allow the hot dog letter to be entered into evidence. A recent newspaper photo showed you enjoying one of America's favorite foods, the hot dog. A couple of days later, there appeared a news story that you were giving up the lowly hot dog for a hundred dollar a plate dinner. The National Hot Dog Council that was in caps. which is sponsored by our company, takes pleasure in presenting you with this memento

as assurance that there is nothing lowly about the hot dog. A million miles of hot dogs will be consumed in the United States this year, and we hope that every one of these hot dog lovers cast a vote for you and Dick Nixon. See, that's the kind of courage that Jeff Bezos didn't have. You're really playing with fire.

You're really playing one million miles of hot dogs. That's a lot of morsels. Well, thank you for sharing this bronzed hot dog. You're very welcome. And is that hot dog a sandwich? Absolutely not. Thank you very much, Samantha Patured. And would you mind if the hot dog remained on display?

That would be great. That would be great. because it's probably pretty valuable. It is. Would you like me to assign an audience member to guard it? I think that would be prudent. Okay, good. I believe there is a 15-year-old member of the audience.

Would you be willing to guard the hot dog? Well, then please come up here and stand. Come on up. Stand as a century. What is your name? I'm Foster. Foster. Foster is guarding the hot dog on behalf

an apt name. That's true. On behalf of the Massachusetts Historical Society, thank you very much, Samantha Kature for sharing that with us. I guarantee you you will get it back. Thank goodness, or else I can't go back to work on Tuesday. Well, maybe you'd like a holiday. I don't know.

But really, such a pleasure. I am sorry about last year. I'm so glad you could share that with us this year. Thank you very much. Thank you, Samantha Kature. I gavel in favor of Massachusetts history. Foster you good over there? Okay, look sharp.

Let's bring out our next litigants. Please welcome to the stage. Nikki and Jake. Nikki and Jake. Nikki brings the case against her husband, Jake. Nikki is an avid baker and is particularly proud of her award-winning apple pie. But Jake says that's stolen valor. Nikki doesn't deserve an award for one surprising reason.

Judge Hodgman. Nicky and Jake, you may be seated. Thank you for joining us in the court of Judge John Hodgman. Have you met Foster? He's guarding the bronze hot dog. Hello, Foster. Foster, I forgot to mention after we hear this case,

we're going to have a song, and then we're going to go into intermission where people can take a break and use the bathroom. You may not leave. You have to stand there. Throughout intermission. Keep an eye on that bronze hot dog. Thank you very much. Round of applause for Foster, if you don't mind.

All right. Who seeks justice in my fake court? I do, Your Honor. What is the nature of the justice you seek? I come here today to ask this court to order Nikki to stop referring to herself as an award-winning apple pie baker. Wow. This is the person that you love the most in the world. Yes, this is my wife.

Allegedly. You're trying to strip her of her award. Nikki, it does seem that you're holding an award in your hands. Right here. This is a plaque. May I read it? If I could enter this into evidence, Your Honor. It shall be entered.

It says 2009, East Boston Harvest Festival, Apple Pie Baking Competition, first place award. There is a blue ribbon. Your name is written below it. Everything seems to be in order here. We'll enter this into the evidence. Foster, just hold this in front of your body and keep it above your waist

if your arms droop at any time throughout the rest of the night. There shall be flogging. Now, Nikki, tell me about the award you won 2009. What happened? Why did you deserve this award? How did you win this award, I should say? Happily, Your Honor. So the East Boston Harvest Festival, annual tradition, held by a wonderful organization named Zumix.

So I entered... What is Zumix all about so that I can... Zumix is all about being somewhat less good than the historical society. We are a round of applause. It is a youth arts organization. Okay, great. In East Boston. Terrific.

So I entered into the contest in 2009. Now, I had practiced a few test runs to make sure that it was up to snuff. In fact, I won. The judges in that court felt that it was an eligible entry, and in fact, it was the best. And then I entered again in 2013, and I came in. second place. Very nice. So it wasn't a fluke. No, I've actually won two awards for the same apple pie recipe. So why would you, why would you say that your wife's entry in the apple pie category did not deserve the blue ribbon that is being held by Foster the child? Excellent question. While the confection

that Nikki entered into the 2009 East Boston Harvest Festival Apple Pie baking competition was in fact delicious if memory serves as I have not tasted it low these 15 years, it was not a pie. It was in fact a cheesecake. Allegedly. Gasps. And, Your Honor, I came here prepared to argue two points of fact. One being that she shouldn't call herself an apple pie baker, award-winning apple pie baker.

The other that... I don't like that you're holding paper right now. A cheesecake. I came here prepared to argue that a cheesecake is not a pie, but I hold my hands precedent from this court. I enter into evidence. Page 19 from the... transcript of episode 288 of this podcast. Will you read from the highlighted portion, sir?

These are my words? Yes, sir. I'm not the one on trial. Is a cheesecake really a pie? No, it's a cake. It's totally a cake. I mean, it has a crust, which is unusual for a cake. I'll grant you. It is served at crust and classic. You want to enter this into evidence? Yes, Your Honor. Let me walk it over to Foster. How dare you? Why have you not tasted this confection, as you call it, for 15 years, sir? Tell me the truth, if you will.

Because Nikki won't let me. Because Nikki won't let you eat. Because I will not refer to it as a pie. But in fact, truthfully, as a cheesecake, she won't let me have it. I believe that you have not tried it in 15 years, but I'm about to try it tonight. Do we have... Here we go.

Many things. This is the secret of showbiz. Bring out things and put them on tables. Thank you very much. Blair of the Coolidge Corner movie theater here. One of the many wonderful staff members. Thank you. And you made this expressly for the evening.

Is that correct, Nikki? That's true. I baked it yesterday. It looks delicious, and I'll tell you something. I as everyone knows I don't have a sweet tooth I have an alcohol molar especially this week but I do love cheesecake because it is quite savory and I and I also like apple pie this I'll just sort of tilt it so that people can see carefully it's not a fix to that board good enough

summary judgment if it falls so this is the recipe you entered into the contest that's Correct. This is the product of the same recipe. Same recipe. One you, the blue ribbon that Foster is holding over the bronze hot dog right now. Yeah, I would like to say there was a little, there was a different methodology, so there's more topography on the top of this one than there was on those. Oh, I see here, it's a perfect map of the state of Maine. What do you mean by topography, though? It should be a smooth, it should be a smooth surface on top.

You whipped this up for this dumb podcast show. you're a hero as far as I'm I used a kitchen aid instead of the hand mixer and that was the issue. It looks handsome to me. It looks like a sort of brutalist concoction. Yeah, brutalist. It looks like the

Boston City Hall. Brutalist. Very appropriate. You want to have a bite, Jesse? I mean, I don't like cheesecake and you do, but... All right. I'm going to have a bite. I'm more of a pie guy. I'm just going to... Wow.

This is an apple cheesecake. It has a crust on both the bottom and surrounding it. Looks like a graham cracker crust. Is it a graham cracker crust, would you say? Yes, as is typical in many types of pie. And this recipe. A key lime pie. Banana cream.

Chogynette custard. She's come armed with receipts. Amongst the papers that were cast onto the stage floor are some definitions of pie and cheesecake that would only include a filling encased in pastry. What are your credentials? You know what?

I'm going to go away for 10 minutes and let you hash it out. Personally, I'm getting kind of horny. So your argument before I taste it is that there are many pies like key lime pie that are essentially a custard or much like cheesecake,

a tart custard within a crust. and that's what you're replicating here. Is this your own recipe, or did you get it from someplace else? It's my mother's recipe, and unfortunately, she's no longer with us, so she's not here to defend it herself. No, no, but your husband is here to dance on her grave. In my own defense, slightly in my own defense, I didn't realize it was her mother's recipe

until our screening call with Jennifer Marmer before this show. How long have you been married? That's a lie. We've been together for 20 years and married for 13? 13. All right. Close enough. Let me just say that I noticed the gentleman in the front row

attempting to pick up the evidence that I threw on the floor. It's on the floor for a reason. Put it back down on the floor. Actually, pick it up again. Pick it up. Tear it in half. Stand up, face the audience, and tear it in half. Oh.

No one brings my own words against me. All right, I'm going to taste it now. Is that all right? Please. Is there anything that you, if there's anything else you'd like to say, Nikki, while I'm chewing, while I'm having my cake and eating it too. Well, I would like to say that I don't believe that the case law of this court was binding on the judges of that contest.

And I would hope that as a man of the judiciary, that you would respect another judge's decision, because Jake was not a judge. In fact, they saw him standing there and they did not invite him to judge the contest. Jake, while I'm eating this pie, I have to ask you the question. I ask all people who bring the court a case, particularly husbands, what do you care? Here I go. I'm biting into it now. My concern is one of accuracy first, because I think the phrasing that she uses in many of her

bios, including professional bios. It's a credential. She is an award-winning apple pie baker. Sorry, I had just for the at-home listener, just know that John just very, elegantly ate some of the pie successfully. I opened my mouth and the pie came out. So I think her phrasing...

All right, I'm chewing now. As Noah's wife in Wayne's world says, I just opened my mouth and out it came. You talk for a minute. I got to talk to a ball. I believe the phrasing award-winning apple pie baker implies the confection that won this award. I don't challenge the fact that she won this award. The judges, I'm I sure loved her pie, but I think the implication is that it was a pie that won this award,

where I feel like it would be more accurate for her to describe either herself or her apple pie cheesecake as the judge said, as having won the apple pie contest. I'm here to tell you, this is a god or whatever damn delicious pie. That's what I hear. I don't really know. Several judges thought so. And what's your name again? Jake, Jake. I appreciate your impassioned argument on behalf of nothing. I would say my other argument might be that Nikki has lots of awards and accolades on which to stand

and doesn't need to make this one. Order in this court. Sir, shut your pie or cheesecake hole. But which hole is it? I am inclined to say that all the accolades that Nikki has earned have been deserved if she has done her work as well as she has done making this pie. And I'm not just saying this because you have no case and it's weird and miserly to try to take back, claw back her accomplishment for no reason other than your own pride of pie definition. I don't know. But I'll tell you what, this has a cheesecake element on top, but underneath there are.

layers of firm whole apple slices that eats like an apple pie. It's delicious. How am I to get in the way of the judges of this? Here, I'll take this back. Thank you very much. I'll give this back to you where it belongs. And indeed, yes. Your Honor, I ask for an emergency injunction?

No. May I have some of the pie? If I have to call it a pie, may I have some of it? You don't deserve to eat it. I thought I could get away with that one. For those of you listening at home, Jesse just very elegantly smeared pie all over Jake's face. Jake, I want you to put this to be clear, I did not do this to you. And here, let me offer you a couple of napkins.

And I think you will agree that it is absolutely delicious. Wonderful. I wish that I had had the foresight to get a trophy from a trophy store. to give to you, Nikki. I can give you my address. That's okay, because it occurs to me that we already have a very valuable trophy right here. So let me go ahead and just...

Excuse me, Foster. Godfana, the kid's too good. The kid's too good. I find in Nikki's favor. That's with Justin. Thank you, Jake and Nikki. Brookline, Massachusetts. Are you ready for mega-justice?

Let's bring out our litigants. Please welcome to the stage, Jesse and Jacob. Tonight's case, an undigested bit of beef. Jesse brings the case against his younger brother, Jacob. loves to read aloud from a Christmas carol during the holiday season. But Jesse says bah humbug.

He dislikes a Christmas carol because as a story, it is inefficient. Too many ghosts. Which brother is right? Which brother is a joyless Scrooge who is incapable of realizing he's acting out the plot of the very booky load.

only one can decide please rise as judge john hodgeman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference brave lodgings for one brave lodgings for one a few feet of cold earth when life is done a stone at the head a stone at the feet a rich juicy meal for the worms to eat rank grass overhead and damp clay around brave lodgings for one, these in holy ground. Ho, ho, ho. Bail of Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Jesse and Jacob please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God, or whatever. I do.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he was sent to this stage to serve as a cautionary ghost for Foster? Oh, I do. I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. This is what you have to look forward to, Foster. Choose another path.

Learn about sports. Go and be normal. Everything good with the hot dog, by the way? You're doing a wonderful job. Round of applause for Foster, everybody. All right. Now it's down to you two. Jesse and Jacob, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment.

In one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom. Oh, I don't know. Jacob. Which one of you is Jacob? Jacob, why don't you guess first? It sounds like a children's poem written by a very well-known children's author, but I cannot place it. A children's poem written by a very well-known children's author. You could say any well-known children's author. Richard Scarry is what I heard. All right. All right, Jesse, it's your turn. What's your guess? I really don't know. My prepared guess was Scrooge the musical, the 1970 film, so I'll enter that.

There are many, many adaptations of a Christmas Carol that I could have quoted from, but in this case, all guesses are wrong because I was quoting from an earlier story by Charles Dickens considered to be a precursor to a Christmas carol called and say it with me because everyone remembers this one, The Story of the Goblins who stole a sexton.

You don't remember that one? where the grave digger, Gabriel Grub is teased by a goblin. And they say Hollywood has scraped the bottom of the IP barrel. There's more gyms to be uncovered, show business. In this short story that's

part of the Pickwick Papers is a grave digger named Gabriel Grub who hates Christmas. The story starts with him. He's sort of the proto-scrooge. The story starts with him wandering through town and he hears a child singing a Christmas carol and he beats the child over a head with a lantern.

And then he goes to dig a grave on Christmas Eve, sings that morbid song, gets drunk, and a goblin comes and shows him that there is happiness in life. The end. You would love it, Jesse. It's very short. Finally, John, A24 interprets the classic tale. In any case, we have to hear this case.

Jesse, you bring the case to court here? Yes, yes, I do. Are you the older, adorable brother or younger? adorable brother. I am the older brother. I'm eight years older than my brother. You both, thank you both for dressing up so nicely and being here today. I appreciate it. We always appreciate it when our litigant's dress in the manner of 10-year-olds

who are attending a Judge John Hodgman. There you go. That's what we were going for, yeah. So, Jesse, you're the older brother. You both live here in Boston, correct? That's correct. Just moved here, actually. Oh, where'd you move from? We were living in Michigan. Where did you? A few of us out in the audience.

All right. I'm not. It's fine. It's not thinking about Michigan anymore. Yeah. I love Michigan. True. And so, Jacob, tell me about your A Christmas Carol tradition. Well, I've read a Christmas Carol myself for many years at Christmas time. It's a very

quick read. It's a great story. Perfect number of ghosts. It's not... May I tell you, it's not as quick as the goblins who stole a sexton? I'll have to add that to my repertoire. So my son was born two years ago. Congratulations.

Thank you very much. And last Christmas, he has moved into his own room. Yeah. I was starting to read stories to him to go to bed. Right. And I wanted to share with him one of my favorites around the Christmas time, a Christmas carol. Wait a minute.

How old is he again? He was one and a half at this point. Yeah. Okay. Great. So I say... He doesn't have the attention span for the Christmas carol. You got to go with the Goblin one.

Yeah. I say read to him I read it over several nights and it's more of a way for him to hear my voice so that he can go to sleep. That's wonderful. And you said that it has the perfect number of ghosts. Correct.

Which of the ghosts of the four ghosts is your favorite? Personally, I love Ghost of Christmas yet to come. It's a perfect button to the arc that Scrooge is on. Right. The first two guys...

This is the spectral ghost resembling death who shows Scrooge his own grave. Yes. And you just skip to that part when reading to your son as he falls asleep? See, that's my whole point here is that you can't skip to that part. You can't skip any of it

because it all feeds on itself leading up to the conclusion which is not earned unless you have seen all four of the ghosts. Jesse, I know you hate all the ghosts or some of the ghosts in this book, but before we get to that, do you believe in ghosts?

Well, Christmas ghosts, I believe in, yes. See, because we're heading into the holiday time, and I... Wait, John, hold on. He said Christmas ghosts, I believe in. Yes. Good point. Thank you. Good catch, Jesse.

Jesse. Yes. You only believe in Christmas ghosts? Well, I just think that the... I actually would like to bring up that in the book they're called spirits. There's actually a difference between the ghosts and the spirits. Jacob Marley is a ghost. Is a ghost.

Okay, I gotcha. That is a person who is alive and now has unfinished business bound in the chains that he wore in life or whatever, blah, blah, blah. Boy, that guy could talk. And then the others are spirits. They're embodiments of... Yeah. They're more of a Halloween superstore. So we were in Western Massachusetts the other night, and I was visited on stage.

I believe by my own personal ghost of Christmas future. a guy who embodied many of the things that I am obsessed with, whether it's the Hartford Whalers or members-only jackets. Can we show a picture of this guy? He just showed up like this. Can you see him too? Am I the only one who can see this guy? He really freaked me out.

Okay, we'll take him away. His name's Andy Royce. That's his name anyway. All right, let's get back to the case. So, Jesse, you like one ghost and you hate three spirits. Is that correct? Yeah. What's the story?

Why do you hate a Christmas Carol? The beloved Christmas story. Well, I just think that, you know, it's not necessary. I don't think that the Christmas spirits are necessary. Go on. Is the real problem. I think that, you know, Scrooge is visited by Jacob Morley, who, you know, convinces him that he's his friend, who died and is now a ghost, and that his behavior during his life. caused him to have chains and be tormented forever in the afterlife.

And specifically his behavior of being a greedy miser and joyless person. Right. Yes. This is the social commentary of the book. You know, Charles Dickens, his father went into debt. He went to go work in a boot-blacking factory. It was miserable child labor. Nothing that I would ever partake of.

If I were to hire a child to guard a hot dog, you know, there would be fair compensation, obviously. But you're saying that Jacob Marley's message to Scrooge, which is that if you don't change your ways, you will end up like me an unhappy ghost. Is enough? Yeah, I think once you're presented with evidence of the afterlife really existing, like definitive evidence that ghosts exist

and your behavior as a greedy miser is going to, like you should just go save Tiny Tim at that point in the story. So like, why do we need the other ghosts? I think we should just like stop at that point, like at the end of the first chapter and go to the fifth chapter, right? you're saying there's a plot hole in Charles Dickens that you have discovered well I don't know why no one else has discovered it in like 200 years but you know I think I think yes I think that it should you know he should just go to the end I mean he's he he's you know he's presented with evidence

he believes it and I think that at that point he should just go save tiny tim like the extra stuff is just the extra spirits well okay I I it's an interesting reading and There's something to it, I have to say. But why is it any of your business, what goes on between your brother and your nephew? Well, so here's the thing. So when he was reading, I did not bring this case last year, Judge. So, like, previously, I don't know what is the point of that? I completely agree that previously, before I moved here, it was none of my business,

and he should read the story and, you know, my nephew. Now you're here. Now I'm here. And he's throwing these spirits up in your face. All the time. He's always talking about the spirits. This actually has been a philosophical debate for a while between my brother and I, but, you know, nothing actionable.

But now that we live here, we actually go over to his house on a weekly basis. We spend maybe two to three times a week there. That's very nice. And we're, you know, babysitting his kids, and we're there actually at bedtime, most of the time. And so, you know, what I'm asking for, Judge, is a preliminary injunction, actually, that we, when we're reading the story, this year, because I know that he does this. I think that we should read the first stave

and then the fifth stave, like in that order, which is the first and then the last part of the book. I know the stave is, sir. And then, and then, sorry. I don't know my staves. It would be ridiculous if you didn't know staves. And then move on to other Christmas stories. Hold on, one second.

I think more logically consistent stories. John, what's this stave? it's like a part of a book I think it's part of a book yeah that's what I thought what do you read to your nephew like the first part of Charlotte's Webb when the father goes out to kill the pig and then stop

so that's a really good part of that book I don't know if you've read condensed old yaller but that's awesome yeah you read the velveteen rabbit up to the scarlet fever part it's like well I think that's all there is kids very sick the rabbits in the trash

the end. Nighty nights. Well, it's comforting, right? So you're saying that you have standing in this because now you live here? No, no, no. I'm saying because I'm now part of the reading problem. We've actually, you know, I do read to him at bedtime. I put him

to bed. Maltlans. So when we're there, we take turns to help sort of spell them of like putting their kids. They actually have two kids. So we often will put my older nephew. Is he asking you to read the entirety of a Christmas Carol? No, but I am now. Okay. That could be my ruling, if that's your ideal ruling. Yeah, I suppose so, right.

Yeah, so he is asking me to read parts, at least parts of Christmas Carol, and I think that we should just be logically consistent and just read the first part and the last part of Christmas Carol. Jacob, I love that you're sharing so much of your life with your brother, especially now that I've gotten to know your brother. It takes a lot of patience, I can tell. you're very close have you ever had any other disputes between the two of you this is it's very sad to say this but honestly this is the largest one we have i think that should be very happy to say this is years in the making uh we've had this discussion we've had to stop having this discussion at family dinners as we get closer and closer to christmas because both of our wives are very tired of this discussion sure and it comes up There's a lot of media that references a Christmas carol or it's based on a Christmas car.

It's a very famous story that people love. Absolutely. Jesse and don't seem to have a problem with. They like all the spirits. They look. It's fun. Yeah. I mean, it is.

Come forth and see me, man. Ghost of Christmas present. Right? And then there's the willowy ghost of spirit of Christmas past, right? And then your favorite in mine. Old Scratch himself. the one that you like to read to your son about. The ghost of Christmas death.

Sorry, where were we? We were leading up to the real star of the book A Fine Fat Goose. Oh, yeah. So, I mean, do you think that it's enough story? You're saying it's enough story of Jacob Marley haunts Scrooge, says, no, I'm not your indigestion, I am actually the ghost of your former partner.

And then Scrooge wakes up and throws a, coin out to a kid and buys the cratchets of goose? That's enough? That's enough. Yes, I think so. Jacob, you disagree, obviously. I believe you brought a passage that you wanted to read. So first, I just want to say that my brother's take on this story is all about the criminal justice system, I believe. We're talking about rehabilitation versus punishment. My brother here is advocating that Scrooge should be afraid of the punishment, and I am saying that Scrooge should be rehabilitated. So the three ghosts is three spirits. So let me make sure that I understand this. What Jesse in your words is arguing is that because, and as you said, because Scrooge has seen

that there is an afterlife in which his partner who is a greedy miser like him is been punished and is miserable, that that that should scare him enough, that he'd be so afraid of punishment that he should change his ways. Well, yes. Good. Thank you. Glad I got that right. But you're saying that Scrooge has to go through a journey of rehabilitation. Exactly. So I have one passage here that I'd like to read.

Great. Which exemplifies why Scrooge cannot just see Jacob Marley. So this is from Stave 2, which is part two, chapter 2. And a stave, that's a part of a book. Correct. It's the second in this case, yeah. Stave is the part of the book you used to stab Dracula's, right? That's right.

go ahead so this is from just prior to the appearance of the ghost of christmas past scrooge has been told that he is going to meet the ghost at the strike of one scrooge lay in this state until the chime had gone three quarters more when he remembered on a sudden that the ghost had warned him of a visitation when the bell told one he resolved to lie awake until the hour was past and considering that he could no more go to sleep than go to heaven this was perhaps the wisest resolution in his power. The quarter was so long that he was more than once convinced he must have sunk into a dose unconsciously

and missed the clock. At length it broke upon his listening ear. Ding dong, a quarter passed, said Scrooge, counting. Ding dong, half passed, said Scrooge. Ding dong, a quarter to it, said Scrooge. Ding dong, the hour itself said Scrooge triumphantly and nothing else. Very well read, by the way. Round of applause if you don't mind.

So what What does this passage suggest to you, this deep textual analysis? So at this point, Scrooge has seen Jacob Marley, and he's also, at this point, seen a whole horde of ghosts go past his window, all wearing chains, all wearing the terrible iron saves and things that they forged in life that keep them chained to this mortal world. And he is still thinking of a way to get out of it. He is still counting the chimes on the clock and saying, at the end, he's triumphant.

He says, it's one o'clock, the ghost isn't here. I must have gotten away with it. I must have gotten away with it. And so that's what I'm saying is that he can be scared by the ghosts, but he's still in his head is thinking, how am I going to get around this? How am I going to get past this

without having to give up any money without having to change my ways? So he needs, in essence, all three of the other ghosts, because they each feed him a very specific part of his life story that he needs to know in order to come to the realization,

I need to be a better person for myself and for the people around me, the people that I love, the people that I've loved in the past, something. Does that make sense to you, Foster? Yeah, it makes sense to Foster. Makes sense to me, too. How do you respond, Jesse? Well, I think a couple things.

So, first, I think that Dickens, you know, famously is all, you know, very, like, into parallelism where he's always bringing up the same theme over and over again. And I think that he actually, in an earlier passage, which I could, we don't have to read. I saw you reaching for your inside pocket. I was, but at the point here... Is that a stave in there, or are you just happy to see me? It's a stave. Bring out the stave.

Well, okay. All right, so, so when he meets Morley for the first time... I hate to do this to you. Marley. Marley, okay, yes, Marley. It's, see... Jacob, Markle. Like your brother. Jacob.

Markle. It's Jacob? Okay. so he says mercy he says so he falls the ground because marley appears and he says mercy like marley and me that's a good story about that ghost dog i don't know what's about what's about like bob marley the reggae ghost like bob marley the famous main comedian bob marley it's also true sorry go ahead i apologize uh yeah so he says dreadful information uh dreadful apparition uh dreadful apparition Why do you trouble me?

Man of the worldly mind replied the ghost. Do you believe in me or not? I do, said Scrooge, I must. But why do spirits walk the earth and why do they come to me? It is required of every man that ghost return that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow men and travel far and wide.

And if the spirit that goes forth, not in life, is condemned to do so after death. It is doomed to wander the world through the world. Oh, woe is me. And witness what it cannot share, but might have shared on earth and turned into happiness. Now, I would say that he's describing all of the spirits that then visit him

in just that one sentence. It is a banger sentence. But it doesn't take. It doesn't take. He immediately goes back. Because your passage comes after. It comes after that. Jacob's passage comes after Jesse's a nap.

I think that Dickens is just used to writing by the word, like being paid by the word. And so he's just expounding repeatedly. He was terrified about going into debt. Right. Like his father. And indeed his previous work, I can't remember.

which one it was, but it was financially disappointing. So he really needed to make some money with a Christmas Carol. The story of the Goblins Who Soul of Sexton did not do it for him. I mean, yes, it was not popular. But let me ask you, you know what, I'm going to put this to Foster. You've heard both of the arguments so far, right? Yeah. Now, Jesse is pointing out that there is a moment where Scrooge is scared out of his mind because he has seen the ghost of his partner, and he has this moment of like, oh, I've got to change my ways. And then he doesn't. Now, here's my question, Foster.

Have you ever gotten ruinously drunk? No. You've never been hung over? Nope. Well, let me tell you about something. Jacob or Jesse, I don't know if either of you are drinkers. Have you ever gotten ruinously drunk, Jesse? No.

Okay. Sorry. Jacob. I'll save you on this one. Have I talked myself into an intervention? John, I'm sure you're wondering why we're all here today. I thought I had an idea. We sold tickets, my own intervention.

John, you've heard our podcast. But Jacob, you've been hung over in the morning and have you ever said, oh, I'm never going to drink again? Yes. more than once. Okay. And, okay, now, do you need help? Okay. After Tuesday, maybe. But you see the point that I'm making, Jesse, that Scrooge has this moment potentially, arguably, I should say, where he is scared straight for a moment, but then very quickly starts talking himself back into the idea that it was just dream, that it doesn't mean

anything that he doesn't have to change. How do you answer that? Well, I mean, that's because he's written that extra part of the story, right? So, like, if that part didn't exist, like, You could just go to the end, and he would be scared straight, right? Like, he would, he would, I mean, that program was famously successful, I think. Jesse, it says here that if I were to rule in your favor, what would you want? You want me to order this book to be banned? That's a fun thing. That's a great side of history to be on.

I don't want the book to be banned. I want it to be edited. You want it to be edited. Yeah, I just think that, you know, Dickens needed a more judicious editor. I mean, he was being paid by the word, which is why he wrote so verbosely, right? Like, just like a lot of words, right?

And he's always coming back to the same thing because he can get more out of it, just repeating it, you know, Tale of Two Cities, you know. They should have only been one city? I mean, it would be a better story. It was the best. of times.

The end. Everyone loves that story. It's a great story. Jacob, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule? I would like to continue reading a Christmas carol to my son and have my brother be forced to read the voices

of all of the schools. Wow, you're asking me, oh, you're asking me to allow you to read what you want to your son. That's correct. if your older brother objects to it. And he's got to read the spirits in funny voices.

Exactly. Do you do funny voices? Yeah, probably. Yes, I would for my nephew. Yes. Okay. All right. Very interesting.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to go into my chambers, and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jacob. How are you? feeling about your chances right now? I feel pretty good. Honestly, it was worth it just to watch the judge roast my brother. Jesse, how are you feeling? Well, I was more confident when I came in

today. But I think I made some good points. I mean, I do think that it should, you know, it could be more concise. Jacob, you said that this was the first real conflict that the two of you had. At some point, you must have had a conflict over which one of you would wear the white eyeglasses so that your child could tell which one was his dad. This is not a joke. Our wives confuse us when we're on the phone. Yeah, absolutely. It's a serious problem.

It really is, I had a conversation, not to leave this room, I had a conversation at one time with a comedian Jimmy Pardo about our friends, the Sclar brothers, who are twin brother comedians. And he and I realized simultaneously that both of us, whenever we're talking to our, friends, the Sklar brothers, are repeating in our heads, J. Glasses, J. Glasses, J. Glasses. That won't work with us, though. Okay. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all

this when we come back in just a moment. Judge John Hodgman, we're taking a break from the stage at the Coolidge Corner Theater, and we're preparing for the stage at San Francisco Sketch Fest in January. That's right. returning to San Francisco Sketch Fest, not my hometown, the hometown of someone I know and love, Jesse Thorne. That's who I'm talking about. Oh, it was me the whole time. It was me. It was you. It was you. Also, Rice errone. Look, we love performing at San Francisco Sketch Fest. It's one of the first places we ever did a live show. And as you know, if you've ever been to a live show, there's so much more that goes on than what you hear on the podcast. We have a lot of

fun outtakes and asides and moments that you don't get to experience unless you get there to the Marines Memorial Theater on January 18th there in San Francisco. Why don't you go over to Maximumfund.org slash events and get yourself a ticket or get a ticket for a friend who might live over there. And also we need disputes for the show. That's how it works. If you've got a beef that you want to air on stage in San Francisco, let us know, won't you, by going to Maximumfund.org slash J.J.H.O. And make sure to let us know that you're going to be in San Francisco. If you're out there, you live in Richmond, California. You're mad of my mom about something. If you went to high school with me, you think I made a bad decision,

a student body president? I didn't make any decisions. Student body president doesn't do anything. That's why I ran for it. Yeah, that's right. It's a figurehead role. And no matter where you live, go to maxfundstore.com because we have lots of wonderful new Judge John Hodgman merch that is perfect for the holidays for the Judge John Hodgman fan in your life, including our right and wrong hats, our new candles, and our cozy goth sweats, along with lots of Judge John Hodgman classics. All of that is at maxfundstore.com. If you want a one-of-a-kind treasure, don't forget about to put this on shop at put this on shop.com, my antique shop, uh, where we also have some beautiful handmade items, including some ball caps, some pocket squares made from

World War to Korea-ish era, uh, aviators escape masks that are made of silk. Yeah, isn't that neat? That's very cool. Put this on shop.com, and if you use the code justice, you get 10% off. All right. Let's get back to the Coolidge Corner Theater. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. Jesse, I just had the strangest dream.

Really? Tell me about it. I believe I had been visited by two identical spirits. who nonetheless were eight years apart in age. I even felt like, honestly, Jacob, I feel like when Jesse was talking, I saw you mouthing his words. It was uncanny.

Oh, they're real. This really happened. Honestly, I must say, Jesse, that I appreciate your take. As someone who was trained in the minimalist writing boom of the 80s and the early 90s, the fiction writing boom where Raymond Carver and so forth, I believe in efficiency of storytelling.

I feel you, and I found your teasing out of that plot hole to be almost convincing. Certainly compelling and worth an argument because, or let's just say, a discussion, a discussion that you have over the dinner table for years and years and years, because it does speak to what motivates people to do good or to be less greedy and miserly and awful. The fact is that if we did know for sure as an individual, as a community, that there was an afterlife in which you would be punished with eternal torment, perhaps we would change our behavior. We like to believe that when there is possible consequences for our behavior, we will change our

behavior. None of human nature suggests that's true. Even in religious movements where there's a firm belief in the afterlife, people are talking themselves out of that. They're writing their own indulgences. I do think that it's an interesting conversation to have, and particularly to have with your son or your nephew or your daughter or your child or whoever it is

about why we do good things versus bad things, why we act selflessly versus selfishly. And I think that, you know, there's a reason that this is a beloved story. First of all, people like extra ghosts. It's just cool. I don't care if you've got a bunch of them walking out the window, you know, walking past your window or whatever.

You want to get, you know, you've got to get, a bunch of ghosts in there. You know what I mean? Three, rule of threes. There's a rule of three in comedy. There's a rule of three in Dickens. Three ghosts plus Marley. That's four.

But, you know, that is what gives it its fable-like quality. You have to often learn your lesson again and again and again and again. And also, by the way, you have no standing to tell your brother what to read to his child. But as an uncle, this is an exact kind of weird. provocation that you should be bringing to this family. Like, it is entirely appropriate from a vuncular position to say, you know what, I think your dad's full of beef. I think your dad's full of poop.

I mean, look at this. This is an afterlife, right? These are questions that you can be having with your nephew and with your son, and it sparks an interesting conversation. And indeed, I would order you to continue to have this conversation but stop berating your brother about it because he's got his own, he's an adult who has his own opinions

about this text, but instead have this conversation separately with your nephew, ideally by waking him up in the middle of the night, standing over his bed, draped in chains, and say,

nephew, it's me, your uncle. There is another interpretation of the story. But otherwise, I must rule in favor of Jacob, and you must read to your nephew doing all of the ghost voices in funny ways, but don't just do it in funny ways. Do it in, really try to give it a performance so that you can maybe understand where the spirits are coming into play. And I think it'll be a beautiful holiday as a result. In fact, I just woke up and I have this idea, like maybe we should start getting it now. Young man, young man.

What day is it? Christmas, it is Christmas. Here. Here's a bronze hot dog. No, come on. It's part of the big. Take that bronze hot dog. Go across the street to Brookline Booksmith. Trade it for the fattest, biggest copy of a Christmas carol you can find. Until then, I rule in Jacob's favor.

This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Jesse Jacob. Thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hoddman podcast. That's it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you to Reddit user Haifam for naming the case in this episode. Is that the singular of Hafei?

I think that's the singular. I think it must be. Yeah. We're on YouTube and somebody, somebody get Mastafab on the phone. Let him know we got a singular for Haifie. We're on YouTube and TikTok at Judge John Hodgman pod. Follow us over there. Don't forget to get tickets to see us at S.F.

SketchF SketchFest in January, that's at SFscatchfest.com or MaximumFund.org slash events. The Judge John Hodgman podcast was created by John Hodgman and Jesse Forne. This episode recorded by Matthew Barnhart. Hey, Matthew. Megan Rosati, our social media specialist, A.J. McKeon is our podcast editor. Daniel Spear is our video editor. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer, and we will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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