Judge John Hodgman - Animal/Vegetable/Criminal

Episode Date: October 15, 2025

Brent brings the case against his wife, Maite. Maite likes to unwind by playing 20 Questions with Brent. But Brent doesn’t want to play the game with her anymore. He says she’s doing it wrong. Her answers are too vague. But Maite says his 20 Questions gameplay is too basic! Who’s right? Who’s wrong?Please consider donating to Al Otro Lado. Al Otro Lado provides legal assistance and humanitarian aid to refugees, deportees, and other migrants trapped at the US-MX border. Donate at alotrolado.org/letsdosomething.We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman!Thanks to reddit user u/LittleSadRufus for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Join at $5 a month at maximumfun.org/join!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bail of Jesse Thorne. This week, Animal, Vegetable, Criminal. Brent brings the case against his wife, Maite. Maite likes to unwind by playing 20 questions with Brent, but Brent doesn't want to play the game with her anymore. He says she's doing it wrong. Her answers are too vague, but Maite says his 20 questions. He says his 20 questions gameplay is too basic. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. I'm fed up with this idiotic game. I'm going home. Oh, okay. End of drama. Bail of Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Brent and Maita please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth in nothing but the truth? so help you, God, or whatever. I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's never beat me at any games ever in his entire life? Now, granted, that's because I don't like to play games, because I feel bad when I win and I feel bad when I lose.

I do. I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed, you're freaking loser. There's no way I'm going to beat you at the bailiff uniform game, that's for sure. Yeah, I put my pants on today, John, because we have litigants in the studio. Litigants in the studio means Jesse Thorne must wear pants. And if you'd like to see them, go right now to YouTube.com popular website. Our channel is Judge John Hodgman Pod.

And if you go there now, you will see that when I say you may be seated, it's lying because Brent and Maita are already comfortably seated there at Maximum Fun HQ in Los Angeles. Very nice to see you both. But I do offer you this chance for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. I, let's see, how are we going to do this? Rather than you guessing the quote, let's play a little game, not of 20 questions, but of five questions each. Earlier, you heard me read the quote.

I am fed up with this idiotic game. I'm going to go home. The first one who can guess the person who said that will get an automatic immediate summary judgment in their favor. You may ask up to five yes or no questions, and I'm going to give you a hint. a person, a human animal, and I tell you, why don't you start? Now, one of the techniques for playing 20 questions is you want to continually, if possible, sort of break the answers down into 50-50 chances. So a very common one, even though there are obviously more than two

genders and gender is obviously a construct as well, some people will say, is this person a man or a woman. Is this person a man or a woman? Yes. Oh, A man, sorry. No, that counts. That's one down for you. I just won. Before we go to Brent, I understand the intention of your question, Maita. And the answer is, the person I'm looking for is a man.

Got it. Brent. Is it from a movie? No. Is it from a TV show? No. Let the record reflect that they both shook their heads like, what other forms of communication are there?

Yeah, what are you doing right now, for example? Oh. Is it from a podcast? No. That was a trick. Is it from a book? No. Is it a comedian?

No. Is it a lyric from a song? No. That's four. Is it from a politician? No. Final question, my day. You're so close.

people are screaming this one into their radios into their radios into their radios into their radios or however they're listening to their podcast it might be it might be that they've got a Bluetooth connection to an old-fashioned radio on which you might be listening to an old-fashioned radio show I think he's suggesting that it's Elvis Costello the songwriter behind radio radio radio It could be Radio Rahim from Do the Right Thing. I don't know. A radio personality.

A radio person. Ryan Seacrest? I don't know. It's not Ryan Sechrist, but you kind of ask two questions and one there in the interest of fun. Compound, okay. Or in the interest of debating what is an appropriate way to play 20 questions or not. I will allow that it is a radio personality. Brent, your fifth and final question to me.

Yes or no question? Is it Howard Stern? Is it Howard Stern? I would say that probably that you got closest, Brent. Okay. But all guesses were wrong? The correct answer, of course. I know I'm going to be getting letters from people.

Gilbert Harding Gilbert Harding. You know Gilbert Harding, don't you? Not a clue. How well do you know your 20th century BBC radio programs? And I do pronounce it with a double M.E of the end program. Gilbert Harding was known as the rudest man in Britain. He was famous for it. He was the irascible and frequently very cranky host of the long-running BBC radio show

called 20 questions. It ran from 1947 to 1976. He wasn't the host for the entire time, but he was host for a good chunk of that time. He was a former schoolmaster with a studied, stuffy, professional air and glasses. He later became a journalist and actor and a frequent panelist on the TV show,

What's My Line, where he was notorious for losing patients with the person whose job he was guessing, often accusing them of being boring. Later, he notoriously cool. equally notoriously walked off the job at 20 questions in 1960, when, according to Wikipedia, quote, after having drunk a triple gin and tonic that he had originally offered to the executive producer,

Gilbert Harding proceeded to completely ruin the night's game. He insulted two panelists, failed to recognize a correct identification after seven questions, and after revealing finally the answer on the 20th question, And he yelled at the panel in the audience and ended the show three minutes early by saying, I'm fed up with this idiotic game. I'm going home. So let's get into it. Brent, we play a little game of five questions.

Your dispute here is with your wife, correct? Correct. Right. Your wife, Mai Tai, who you say doesn't play 20 questions correctly. How did I do as a 20 question host? Did I play it correctly? Yes, very simple question. and answers.

For example, answers, because you were asking questions. Right, right. No, that was pretty good. I was confused at the end because we asked if it was a TV show, but it was a TV show. No, it was not. It was a radio show. Oh, radio, that's right. He was on a TV show called What's My Line, but the 20 Questions show was a radio show in the BBC.

Oh, we just uncovered one of my weaknesses in this case. Listening. Listening. Listening. Brent, how often do you and Mite play 20 questions? Lately, a lot less. Our peak was... Since the divorce.

Our peak was, you know, maybe a year ago or so. Now it's, it really depends maybe once a week. And what accounts for the decline in play? The fact that you hate the way Maita plays? Yeah. What does Maite do wrong while playing 20 questions? Her answers, while the questions are very straightforward like yours were, the answers tend to be a little bit vague, a little bit, there's some gray area, there's a little bit of maybe and not like definitive answers. So my line of questioning, her line of answering will lead me astray, and then I get stuck in this netherly.

region where, you know, the facts don't matter, and I'm completely lost. May I ask you a yes or no question? Is specificity the soul of narrative? Yes. That's true. Do you have a specific example of a time of Maité's bad play, bad 20 question person ship? Um, sure. Uh, recently, the answer, like the thing that I'm supposed to guess.

Right. was cacao nibs. And somewhere along the line of questioning, it was, we narrowed it down to like a food. And I said, is this a man-made food? And she said, yes. And so, okay. Because the cacao has to be denibed?

Yeah, it has to be nibified. And to me, I don't know, a man-made food means, me, like, much more processing, much more... Like a block of concrete. Yes, yes. Yeah. Or a chair. Uh-huh.

So when we got to the end and she revealed cacao nibs and then we reviewed the transcript, man-made food. And I was like, no, that's not a man. It's a man-influenced food. What? I mean, the cacao nib exists as a whole. You have to break it into a nib. What is a cacao nib?

Can someone tell me? Well, we had to look this up, obviously, because it was a point of contention. Yes. Well, Maita, I hope that you were not playing 20 questions with a thing that you personally would have had to look up. If you know what a cacao nib, you would have to know what a cacao nib is, right? Absolutely. What is it? What is it, Mike?

It's pieces of cacao. Okay. Right? So you take the cacao and you break it down, but somebody needs to break it down. What is a cacao now? I'm sorry. Cacao is another word for cocoa. So the cacao bean grows on the cacao tree.

And it is also known as a cocoa bean. Oh, okay. And it is a portion of the bean that has been dried and crumbled. This is something that is used in the making of very expensive chocolate bars. But sometimes you get those chocolate bars with the nibs in them. Yeah, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about them. A little, crunchy little bits of real bitter and tasty chocolate.

Yeah, we're talking about nm nibs. Talking about nmibs. Maite, it says here that you and Brent used to play 20 questions before bed. That's correct. Set the scene for me. Why would you play 20 questions before bed? well um for me it's it's hard to unwind when it's bedtime so like i need something to sort of help me unwind and that's and that's the game of choice and you get into a big fight with

your husband over 20 questions that is very relaxing to me um yeah the end of the fight isn't relaxing but i bet you would agree winning the fight is absolutely and i typically do so It's a nice way of, you know, clocking out for the day. Is that true that Maite usually wins your disputes, Brent? Yes, a high majority. 90% of the games we play, I fail miserably in flames, much to her amusement, and then she's off to sleep. So now you're out here trying to work the ref in this one area trying to get a win, even if it's with an asterisk. Right.

Brent, has Maita always played 20 questions wrong? When was the first time you ever played? Yes. Yes, it's been a long history of this situation. I guess we're starting to dating, so it's been at least 11 years of this. So we're finally. So dating 11 years, married now? How long?

Seven. Congratulations. Thank you. And from the beginning, she was playing 20 questions wrong. Is that what you're trying to say? Yes. Yes. What else does she do wrong?

She thinks a hard to make the polymbs. She also thinks that when you have a cavity and you get it filled, it's still called a cavity. And that's another point of contention. Wow. So her definitions of- Did this come up in 20 questions or at the dentist's office? No. Prior to maybe a year ago, she had had zero cavities.

I had maybe three. So she held that over me for quite a while. Jen, how did you not get into this in the pre-interview? How did you fail on this cavity count? So she would still tease me that I still have cavities. And I said, no, it's been taken care of. It's been clean and filled. And that the definition of a cavity is an empty space.

And yet she maintains that I still have cavity. A filled cavity would be called a filling in my parlance. But this was not part of 20 questions. This is just another example of my tape being wrong. Yes. A gratuitous example, you might even say. Well, you asked, John. Yeah.

But I was asking about 20 questions. Oh, okay. That wasn't clear to me. I thought you just wanted a list of grievances. Yeah, you're right, Jesse. I'll allow it. Any other grievances? Brent was nice enough to provide one.

It's just, but it's just, it didn't come up exactly in 20 questions, if I recall, but it's the kind of difference we have like in, like the definition of things, the how you define something, how you, if cavity came up in 20 questions, this would be an example of where I would get led astray. There is an imprecision. Yes. That is frustrating to you. Yes. In the way Maite absorbs and reflects and speaks the world. Yes. Yes. Maite, are you a native English speaker?

I'm not. What is your first language? Spanish. What do they call a cavity in Spanish? Like a tooth cavity. Caria. And when it's filled, what do they call it? I don't even know.

We don't even know. Rejeno, the filling is resina, resin, or, and then recheno is like, hiller. Filler, yeah. Like Chile's reaeno. So the cavity is stuffed with cheese. Geez. Do you think that that might be part of the reason for some of this imprecision? No. No, I do not. I do not agree with that representation. And I do not agree with calling it an imprecision as well. Fair enough.

Brent, what are the rules to 20 questions? Well, there's two players at least. One has an object, a thing in mind. The other person has to guess what that thing is using within 20 yes or no questions. And so if I'm the person with the thing in mind, like Gilbert Harding, and you're guessing, what are my responsibilities to you that Maite fails to fulfill? You have to, I think you have to know. a lot about that thing in order to field whatever questions I may have. And then you have to represent correctly as cleanly and as precisely as possible, yes or no.

The problem here is like there's always a caveat. There's always some gray area. So yes or no. There's a lot of maybe. There's a lot of can maybe, you know. so that slippery slope leads me down into the other regions yeah is maybe in your opinion an unacceptable answer or i don't know um like if we're playing and i've got something in mind and you ask a question about it i don't know the answer and i say i don't know does that does that mean

you win does that mean you get an extra question Is that allowed? It's allowed because you can be expected to, again, be an absolute expert on every subject. But, yeah, that would be, for me, that would be a free question. Like, okay, that doesn't count as a question. Or let's pause and let's figure it out, which we do quite often. There's a lot of Wikipediaing answers to make sure that we answer that she answers correctly. And that's fine.

That's allowed. Maite, did you learn different rules to 20 questions when you were growing up? Well, actually, what's interesting about this is that I never played 20 questions until I met him. So everything that I know, everything that I learned about this game, I learned by playing with him. So he taught me the rules of this game. And I think this is just a situation. You are the source of all of Maita's sins. Correct.

I think this is just a, you know, your typical. case of the student surpassing the teacher and he's just sour about it what was the one with the kangaroo brent do you remember the story that i'm alluding to yeah i think it was the the answer the thing i was supposed to be guessing was kangaroo right the question was we had narrowed it into it that it being an animal and i said is this a pet is this an animal that literally was in a house. And she said, maybe. Wow.

And then the justification at the end was, people can have pets of all kinds. Maybe there's a kangaroo somewhere. I can't say no, because maybe there's a kangaroo somewhere. And that's exactly the problem. Like, the answers should be in a general, as a general knowledge area. none of these niche fringe exceptions should be allowed. Judge Hodgman, do you have any experience with house kangaroos?

I've held a baby kangaroo, and I know you have as well, Jesse. And those kangaroos lived in a declining mall outside of Minneapolis. No, those kangaroos lived in that nice lady's house. There you go. Oh, really? The medical director of sustainable safari, which is in a declining mall, outside of Minneapolis. That's true, yes.

Well, maybe now it's an ascendant mall now that it has cabbie bars inside of it. That's true. It's a pretty wonderful mall, I must say. But that nice woman that brought them to our live show in Minneapolis that one time when we held

baby kangaroos in swaddling clothes. Yeah. She was... And the baby kangaroos had diapers, too. Exactly. She was taking care of those baby kangaroos in her home. But she was fostering them, right?

Until they could go and live... At Sustainable Safari, which is in a mall outside of. Maybe. Maybe. You're saying there could be a foster fail and that kangaroo lives with her forever? Yeah, it could be. I mean, look, there was almost a foster fail that night at the Fitzgerald Theater when I tried to hide that baby kangaroo in my garment bag.

Yeah, you had them both underneath your robe the whole show. Yeah. Hoping no one would notice. I was going to take those cuties on with me. Now, my take, come on. you know that most kangaroos are not kept as pets. I agree. I can agree with that.

Do you feel like it's your job to mislead Brent in your replies? No, I feel like I'm trying to be extremely precise with my answers. And because the questions he asks are so vague, overbroad, ambiguous, it's hard to give him a straight answer. So, I mean, is this animal a pet? It can be for someone. I don't know. People have peacocks as. Pets?

You know, Brent, what I'm thinking here is that maybe your questions are terrible. I mean, is it a man-made food? I don't care what food you're talking about. Pick a food. An apple. All right. That's not man-made, I would say. Fair.

But it's still, that's a real stumper for something like cacao nibs. Now, cacao nibs are also stumper. So you stumped each other. Yeah. got into a fight. But is the animal kept as a pet? I can see, I have to say that I can see why Maite was a little bit like, I don't know how to answer this one.

What? Not generally would be the answer. But kangaroo? Well, I mean, define kept as a pet. Define an overbroad question for 20 questions. Asking broad questions is the point of 20 questions. That's how the game works. You ask broad questions, and then you ask specific ones.

I'm not sure. I don't want to get into a fight with you. Otherwise, it's just 20 guesses. Otherwise, it might as well be, is it a marble? Is it a dog? You have to start with broad questions. I don't know that that's true. That's not my strategy.

My strategy is to ask specific questions that eliminate categories. Is it Frank Sinatra? Is it, Maite? Maybe. No. All right. Brandt also says here that Maite makes up other games. What kind of games does Maite make up and how are they also unfair to you?

Actually, the games she makes up are maybe more fair because they're her rules and they're very simple and it doesn't require any sort of nuance. The extra games that we're talking about came up because, you know, I started refusing to play 20 questions, but she wanted to, again, unwind, you know, have a chat as we get, you know, go off to sleep, whatever. Yeah. So one, so she'll just make up a game that I'll play instead. For example, there's one that was pretty popular for a while called Badouche. Bad douche. Yeah. One of the rules of badush.

The, like one person asks the other, or gives them a word, and that that person has to take that word, think of a song that has that word in the lyrics, sing, you know, sing that part of that song. But at the same time, for no good reason other than it's just silly, half-asleep craziness, you have to flop your legs up and down like a fish as you're singing. Badoosh! That's called Badoosh. The name of the game is Badoosh. So without the flopping, give me a word, and let me see if I can play it. Hmm.

Kangaroo. There's an important rule. You can't just spew out a word. You yourself have to know of a song that has that word in it, because otherwise... That's true. You know, it doesn't... All right. No, I already failed.

He doesn't know a song with kangaroo. He doesn't know a song. Probably a minute work song, I'm sure, but I can't quote it right now. First of all, that is racist. Just because... Men at work are, just because Colin Hay, the great songwriter Colin Hay, hails from the island of Australia, doesn't mean all his songs are about kangaroos. It says here, Maite, that you feel that Brent's questions are often too specific. What do you mean? His questions can be very limiting.

Hmm. Right? And for the example of the kangaroo, the example of the cacao nibs. You know, like... It's a food. It comes from a natural source, but the thing that I am thinking about is not in its natural state. Unlike an apple. Unlike an apple. Brent, you say that Maite often has to look things up in order to answer your questions. Is that right?

Yeah. Is that off limits in your game, in your version of the game? No. I appreciate the, if there's a gap in knowledge of what this thing is, I obviously want a, a more precise answer. Ultimately, do you feel like you're not on a level playing field that you're not playing Maite isn't playing fair? Or is she just playing tough and you'd like it to be easier for you?

It is tough. And we have in the course of this constant situation, I do see her point about my questions being too specific or too, you know. I'm not even sure. I'm not even sure that I agree with that description. Like, there is something about your questions. Too specific is that? You know, Maite characterizes, I'm not sure if you know this, but in the affidavit,

myte characterizes your 20 questions game as basic. Yeah. Maite says you're a basic player. What does that mean, Maite? I think, you know, maybe because he played this game growing up when he was a child, I think he just stayed at that level, you know, guessing farm animals and stuff like that. But we are playing into adulthood, right? This is a different stage of life.

And he needs to get with the times. I feel we've graduated primary colors. We've graduated basic household items. It's time to get a little bit tougher in the 20 questions game. Time to start thinking about some. nibs. The answer cannot be pumpkin spice latte. Not again. Mytee, I'm not sure. Did I hear from you what you spend your days doing? What is your calling in life aside from? I'm an attorney. Yeah. Okay. I can see why Brent's operating at a disadvantage here. Thank you. Is it always the case,

Maite that you are the person with the answer and Brent must ask the question or does it alternate? I typically doesn't alternate. It's typically me with the answer and him asking questions. Have you ever tried playing it the other way? I have.

And what is your opinion of Brent's gameplay as an answerer? The problem with him is that he is actively trying to match my level. So he will try pick things that are difficult half the time, I guess, or half the time is the things he's

thinking about just, that's not, it doesn't, no, it doesn't make sense. He doesn't know how to answer the questions appropriately. So it's, it's challenging for him to, to pick good things, to answer things appropriately. So we find it better, right? That it's me. By we, I mean I and all impartial observers. Correct. No, that it's better than my day. answer the questions. Maitei, what are some examples or an example

of a thing that Brent was trying to get you to guess? Hmm. Not very memorable, apparently because this game is so basic. Brent, do you remember one

where you were allowed to be the answerer instead of the guesser? It's been a long time. It's been a long time and it rarely happens, so I'm struggling there. But I try to play

a little bit more. straight down the line, I mean, a little bit more, it can be a simple answer, but I think it's, even if it was an Apple, you still, it still will take you at least 10 questions to get there. You know, so there's still gameplay involved. There's still strategy involved. It doesn't have to be so complicated. I'm going to be honest with you. This is a family podcast. But the more specifics of this dynamic you describe, the more it starts to feel like something that should be going on in some sort of adults-only tent. Well, it sounds like ritualistic bedtime humiliation is fun for some.

The more I hear about getting caught in the nether regions. Well, Brent, let me ask you this question then. Sure. You said that sometimes when you get into these disputes and start bickering about, you know, Maite's gameplay and Maite's answers, it's fun. You said it's fun, right? I mean, it's like, it's fun to get into a little fight,

fun fight. Yes, yes. Is that the only feeling you have when you are humiliated time and time again? Oh, my God. I mean, that's what happens. I mean, how often does he get it right, Maite? I would say, like, maybe 35% of the time.

35% of the time. It's generous. And so, Brent, how do you feel, what's 100 minus 35? 65% of the time? Okay, so it is fun. There is a bit, an element of fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you love each other. It's fun, blah, blah, blah. Is there another feeling?

Like, I wish I could just go to bed. Yeah, it's relief that the round has completed. Okay, you got me again. we identify where we went wrong where I went wrong okay good thanks you know I'll see you tomorrow when Maite wants you to understand where you went wrong

does she often open up like a PowerPoint presentation no but she but she knows she knows as soon as I asked the question like oh here's because she'll like she said she'll mention it like oh this is going to be the thing but here's my answer so she'll She knows where it went astray.

And my day, I'll ask you a slightly different question. When Brent gets it right, that rare 35% of the time, how do you feel? Disappointed. Yes. You get no pleasure in when your partner figures out what you're thinking about and guesses it correctly? Very little. I appreciate your honesty. Brent, what would you like your nighttime routine?

to be. I don't want to outlaw gameplay at all. I think there should be a time limit. Nothing after 11 when I'm particularly exhausted. We can play 20 questions, but I do appreciate mixing it up with other things. Well, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor, my day? Obviously, 20 questions every night. Brent loses and flops every night, or what?

It doesn't have to be every night, but I do not agree with a caught-off time, you know, because he can control that, basically, you know? Whenever it is that he's tired, like 11, like, what if we don't make it to bed until 11? Like, and it's because of you, then my, you're infringing on my, on my 20 questions time, and that's not fair. So if there is going to be a time, there needs to be, you know, a provision somewhere to allow for 20 questions times after 11 p.m. If it is because you might be you're suggesting that in addition to a hard temporal cutoff time on the clock, you're also demanding a window after the bodies have hit the bed. Right. Right. Because otherwise you could just run out the clock while everyone's on their feet.

Then he doesn't have to play 20 questions at all. He falls straight to sleep and you're just sitting there trying to flop like a fish by yourself. Exactly. So that would be one thing. Two, he needs to... Again, level of his gameplay. I feel like he needs to ask better questions. He needs to be a lot more receptive to my answers as well

and actually listen to what I'm saying and how I'm saying it because I do give you clues. You do. Mr. Police, man. But my half-a-sleep brain is incapable of handling that. So that's why we have to find that middle ground. Do you ever play 20 questions when fully awake? Nope.

I try, especially when driving, which is when you're supposed to play 20 questions. And she's not interested. That's also when you're supposed to be fully awake, too. Brent, do you want to play 20 questions where might I ask you questions sometimes? Or do you not care? No, I would, that would be. definitely a way that we could play more often is if we agreed to an alternate schedule instead of 10 to 1, which is usually the ratio.

Why not alternate back and forth my day? Because then I get frustrated, and then that doesn't help me sleep. You see? So that's, and I don't like, I don't like to lose. That's, you know, I would have to win. It's, it kind of does the opposite. of a soothing bedtime practice. You're only able to, as they say, rest in power.

Absolutely. One of the contradictions of the ruling that you're asking for, my day, is that you're hoping, you're asking me to order Brent to get better, to improve his game, to make it less basic. And if I were to sew order, and Brent were able to do that,

That would mean that he would start winning more than 35% of the time, in which case you would not be getting your bedtime routine basking in his frustration. You'd be getting less out of the game than you currently enjoy. I think it would make me have to also level up and to keep up with the current ratio, that just means that we have to play more. How do you level up beyond cow nibs? It's possible. Is that the most obscure one she's ever come up with print?

No. No. We did ProTractor the other day. ProTractor was one. I can't remember precisely, but I do somehow remember that it was air. No. Or some, it was something like that, some invisible thing that just like a dark matter or something. It wasn't that specific, but it was something like that where.

There's absolutely no way you can, like, guess that. So it's just impossible. My day, was it dark matter? I don't have specific recollection of, I have a vague memory, just like you pointed out. I mean, it sounds like it was a vague answer. It wasn't air, though. I wouldn't go to something like that. It must have been, like, helium or something.

Yeah, some sort of gas. Can you use helium to hunt an animal? Maybe. Brent, my day says you're not listening to the hints that she's giving you and the consideration that she's giving you. How do you respond to that? It's true. I have to admit that without, I guess I'm not making excuses. I'm just explaining what's happening internally is I'm both tired and I get sidetracked by something she says.

and I'm, like, hyper-sensitive to her answers because I know I have to be on my toes. So, like, even the slightest intonation or pause or something gets me stuck. And so I'm thinking about that, and I forgot that I had already, I'll ask the same question again, because I forgot. And so just compromised across the board trying to play this game. Look, I feel like I've asked every question, yes and no, and other question that I can, without actually seeing this in action and I think I need to see in an action in order to make a decision.

So I'm going to go into my chambers now and get into pajamas and put on my facial mask because that's my bedtime routine. And when we come back, Maite, you're going to try to stump me and Brent with a game of 20 questions. We each get 10. Jesse, you want to be in on this?

Yeah, I'll be in on this because that way if I win, I'll feel bad, and if I lose, I'll feel bad. Sorry about that, but that's what games are like, I suppose. Yep. And, yeah, and then as soon as I, well, I mean, I guess it's just trial by 20 questions, right? I mean, if you can stump me, my day, you win. If Brent or I get it right, then Brent wins. What do you feel about that?

Who cares? I'm doing it anyway. I'll be back in a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Brent, how are you feeling about your chances right now? About 50-50. Yeah, not 3560. No, for example. No, which is where I'm usually at.

But no. Do you think you're better at 20 questions than Maite is? Yes. Maite, how do you feel about your chances right now? I feel like, you know, I'm getting what? Three against one, it's a little, it's going to be a little bit challenging, but I will, I will take it. Do you think you're better at 20 questions than your husband? Absolutely.

The certitude. She sold it, Brent. She sold it. I'm buying it from her. I'm not buying it from you. Yeah. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment. John, you know.

it's a very special time. That's right. It's the 25th anniversary of Bullseye. Bullseye with Jesse Thorne. My public radio program turns 25 years old this autumn. I started it in my dorm room and at the college radio station at UC Santa Cruz, KZSC, the heavyweight 88, when I was 19 years old, 25 years ago. I have been on the radio every single week without fail for 25 years. I can't believe it.

We are doing some really cool stuff to celebrate. What are you doing to celebrate your silver anniversary of Bullseye? Well, for one thing, we just recorded a live streaming show that is on the Bullseye YouTube channel in which I interviewed 25 people in a row, including but not limited to Tanya Mosley, the host of Fresh Air. Rob Cordry, Paul Shearer, Bob Odenkirk, all kinds of amazing people, Lisa Loeb, all kinds of amazing people who I love as well as a few, as well as a few Sound of Young America old schoolers like Gene and Jordan, my original co-hosts and Dan Grayson who wrote the theme music. Not to be clear, this is not a clip show. This was a live show. This was 25 consecutive interviews, me sitting in the studio. So, yeah, well, people rolled through. And we're talking about people who have been interviewed on Bullseye before have been part of Bullseye history.

And it's not a coincidence that each and every one of them is a different kind of creative genius. Because the truth is, when you listen to Jesse Thorne interview people on Bullseye, you are gaining insight into how the creative mind works that you'll not get anywhere else. I love you as an interviewer, Jesse. It's how I came to know you. You interviewed me. And this is such an incredible thing. and people can watch it on the YouTube, right, on the Bullseye YouTube? Indeed.

Just search for Bullseye with Jesse Thorne on YouTube. You will find it there. We also have three live shows. Los Angeles, where I and the show live. New York City, where we did our first ever live show, I don't know, 15 years ago, 18 years ago, gosh, a long time ago. And Santa Cruz, where the show started. So in L.A. on October 16th, we've got Jason Manzouka. A Parnan-Charla, Cheech Marine, and Roy Wood Jr.

Not half bad, John. Murderer's Row. Not half bad. Get a load of this. Get a load of this. In Santa Cruz, California, I know what you're going to say. What are you going to interview a freaking banana slug? What are you going to interview the caveman that's on the sky tram at the Santa Cruz Beach

boardwalk? Jennifer knows what I'm talking about. Some of the underground dwellers from the movie Us. Yeah. What are you going to interview a surprise? A surprisingly large group of people on mushrooms? No. What are you going to interview a boardwalk made of cement?

There you go. Adam Scott from Severance and Parks and Recreation, Santa Cruz's own. Santa Cruz's own, Adam Scott. What a delight. Plus representing Oakland, California, one of the greatest rappers of all time. And a brilliant filmmaker, Boots Riley. My friend Glenn Washington, the host of Snap Judgment, and our very old friends, Scott Simpson is going to be doing some stand-up comedy. He's not that old. He's just an old

friend of ours. We've known him for a long time. He's a brilliant comedian. You remember him from You Look Nice Today and he's such a delight. Well, that's a lot of show, Jesse and Santa Cruz. John, I didn't even mention Mariacci Eterno de UCSC, the UCSEMariachi Ensemble. This is going to be quite a night. And then November 15th at the People's Improv Theater in New York City, John Benjamin, Josh Gondelman, Jada Bumrod, and our friends, and past Judge John High Hodgman guests, Kristen Anderson Lopez and Bobby Lopez playing some of the legendary songs that got them an egot. These are all amazing shows. I can't wait to be at everyone that I can be.

You shouldn't wait either. How do they get tickets? Maximumfund.org slash events is where all the information is. Maximumfund.org slash events. L.A., Santa Cruz, New York City, live on the internet, all of that at maximum fun.org slash events. Plus, if you subscribe to Bullseye, we're going to have a full autumn of special programs, including but not limited to highlights from these live shows, but also highlights from 25 years of doing our show. Gene and Jordan, my original co-host,

one of whom I still do Jordan, Jesse, go with, came into the studio, and our producers made us listen to clips of us 25 years ago on college radio. And it was intense. We listened to the episode. One time we had to give away these tickets to a flamenco show in like Felton, California, maybe. And somebody called in and they won the contest, but they said they would only take the tickets if Gene would go with them.

Yeah. And so we decided on the spot to simulate a date between her and Gene, like how would it go? She did so well that Gene went with her. And then they were boyfriend and girlfriend for like a year. Wow. That's a true story. Anyway, all of that on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne for the 25th anniversary. I'm so excited.

I am and I join the world and congratulating you on 25 years of an incredible series of conversations, one of which included me. It's how we met. And I'm so glad that we did. And I hope to see you all there at all these wonderful shows. Maximumfund.org slash events. Is that where you go? Maximumfund.

dot org slash events go and get it please rise as judge john hodgeman reenters the courtroom and presents his well i guess his uh 20 questions game well i am going to be a guesser in the game that myte leads jesse and brent will also guess we will each guess what's 20 divided by three We'll alternate, starting with Brent, then Jesse, then me, and go round Robin. Jennifer Marmer, if you'll keep track of the total number of questions. And the promise that I have made that if Maite stumps us all, Maite wins the case. If Brent or Jesse or I get it right, then I may give a different verdict.

John, we will each get 6.66 guesses, the guesses of the beast. couldn't be more appropriate Maite, do you have the prompt in mind? I have a few options. I need a few seconds. All right. But, and I guess this is side of all. Yeah, you can ask a clarifying question, certainly. She's trying to decide between

pencil eraser and the metal that goes around the pencil that holds the eraser to the wooden part of the pencil. Got it. No. Let the record reflect that Maite's eyes are closed and she's searching deep within her Netherlands for a possible answer.

Will it be cons categorical imperative or Freon or the concept of shame? All right. I got it. Okay. Brent, are you going to start it off? Yes. All right.

I usually start off with do we own one? I'm already, I'm learning a lot. You see? That's a legitimate question. Myte is gazing into the sky. We're already in the nether regions. The first question,

do we own one? A point of fact. That eliminates many things. This is when we learn that they actually own five kangaroos. Well, here's the thing. Now I need to remember, I'm trying to go in my mind, do we actually own one?

Because maybe he remembers that we do and I don't. So this is why it's tricky. So I'm trying to be very precise. I am going to say no. This is also difficult because the judge and the bailiff don't know what we own. I'm just trying to, I'm trying to determine style of play here. I'm trying to understand the dynamics of the play. So everything is correct.

Is it alive? No. Is it a physical object? Yes. Is it bigger than a basketball? no can you i'm not falling into that trap not can you eat it do people regularly no that still won't work is it food no no is it what is it food no it's not food how many questions are we in hi jennifer mimer says five i just assumed jennifer was

Brenting out and not listening. I can see why you find this a relaxing game to play. I'm over here breaking pencils in half maniacally and flopping my legs around trying to think. Is it something you find in a kitchen? This is classic. This is classic. Is it something you typically find in a kitchen? My gracious.

I'm going to say yes, yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Does it require electricity? No. To use. Is that a separate? Not to exist.

Well, for atoms to stick together, there need to be a positive and a negative charge. So in that sense. It does not require electricity. Is it used for cooking? No. Would you find it in a refrigerator? No. Well, I mean, maybe, but no.

Maybe. I know. It's a real short list of stuff that you don't eat that you keep in the refrigerator. I know. I know. Batteries. Well, it could be baking powder. Okay.

Or soda, I guess. Batteries. Is it a tool? And just because chimpanzees use sticks to get ants, doesn't mean sticks count as a tool. Is it a kitchen stick? I wasn't a guess. Is it a tool is the question?

It is a tool. Okay. Is it used to eat? Define eat. Wow. So every human being, counselor, I'll see you at my bench, please. All right.

I mean, the only part of, possible answer now is one of those pouches that applesauce comes in sometimes or possibly something that holds like a soup that you drink because I can't imagine

what else could be maybe eating and maybe not Goagert it's hard to answer again is rephrase the question I'll allow it Is eating something you do with it?

I don't like that rephrase. Well, I liked the first phrase. Obviously, it's the one that made sense. I am going, again. It's not for cooking, right? We establish it's not for cooking. I am going to. So the question is, is it a tool for eating?

Did we establish that it's not for cooking? Yeah, we did, right? The answer was no. Is it used to eat? eat or drink? Yes. Is it used to drink? Yes.

Those of you who are watching YouTube can see that Jesse Thorne has a guess, but it's Brent's guess now. It's not going to be that easy. No, I can tell. You would never be this easy. I'm going to say. It's going to be one of those hollowed-out coconuts that you drink, teaky drinks out of. Right. I'm going to say an espresso.

Is it an espresso cup? No. Did you see that? Did you hear that? The delay on the no. Right? Because then it gets you thinking. I mean, you could put an espresso in one of those hollow chocolate guys.

I think that's my taste point here. So just to just to recap, it's a tool. It lives in the kitchen. It's smaller than a basketball. It is used for drinking, but it's not an espresso cup. How many questions have we asked? That's not one of my questions. 13.

Oh, this is great. This is great. This is going to be great. Is it generally for hot drinks? No. I take this back then. The thing I was waving at the camera. is drinking its primary purpose.

Yes. Number 15, Brent. All right. We don't own one. So here's where I have the advantage for you guys. We don't own like a Stein or a... What's a Stein? Like a big mug for beer.

Don't get Stein. Yeah. Be realistic. Be realistic. Go with a hauling out coconut. You guys can't, like, exchange info. No, you're right. That's true.

We're not exchanging info. Okay. We're friends. That's what friends do. I'm just trying to have a fun time. Sorry, we thought for a second that it was a game. My mistake. Wait, I have a question.

Is this a podcast? Okay, go ahead. So it's maybe a type of vessel for drinking that we don't own. I'm going to say. A canteen? No. Is it a straw? It is.

Oh. Wow. Dang. You see, that's a perfect, reasonable. That was a pretty reasonable one. That was incredible. Like, you don't own a goddamn straw? I don't think so.

I wasn't putting my team on. We absolutely own straws. No, we don't, no. Where? I mean, maybe. For Sebastian's cups? for the leftover takeout straws that we have in the drawer. Maybe, but I don't know for a fact that we have some.

Wow. Here it is. That's really interesting. Yeah, what about Sebastian's cups? I didn't even think of that. You see, like it's not top of mind. So I'm trying to be fair. Is Sebastian someone you know, Maita?

No, he's the crab from the Little Mermaid. That's our son. Oh, you forgot that your son did this. in your in your obsession with the dominating 20 questions forgot about Sebastian and his straws that's that's where she's at that's level all right well now I'm going to make my verdict and I'm going to make it swift my day I thought you were going to stump us there and you're just going to walk away with it you didn't happen to congratulations jesse thorn I don't think I would have ever gotten to straw amazing creative thinking from jessie thorn and by the way

Maite? That's a great clue. Love that clue. But it was really illustrative and helpful for me to see the gameplay because I got to see the faults in your respective games. One being, you don't know if you own any straws. And you gave the answer, no, after some back and forth hesitation. Whereas I think an appropriate answer would have been I just don't know. I'm not sure. That would be a fair and accurate answer.

Brent, in the meantime, I thought you were out of bounds with do we own one because my style of play is trying to break things down into broad categories of existential categories,

size, usefulness. What is it made of? When you said existential categories, I was sure you were going to say, like, does it make life worth living? Yeah, well, I mean, that, I do feel that Brent, some of your questions, you complain about going into these gray areas, but you're opening gray areas, right? Like, can you use it to hunt? Does God love it? You know, is it a man-made food?

And do we own one? Are questions that are really open interpretation rather than clear elimination of category. And yet, I have to give you credit, we kind of got closer and closer to it because you reoriented our thinking into, for me at least, into, well, my taste says it doesn't exist in your home, but let's think about your home. Let me break your home down into categories. Is it a kitchen item? Is it a bedroom item? Is it a bathroom item? That sort of thing. And I think that helped us get there. We all played our part. But only Jesse Thorne made that creative move to straw. And I want to be clear, I apologize to you guys for winning. I feel like such a jerk. Well, Jesse, I understand and I appreciate that. And I want to talk about that feeling in a moment, but you don't have to feel like a jerk because really we cheated.

Jennifer Marmer gave us a hint, which was not fair to my day by suggesting that we ask, can you use it to drink? We might have gotten there eventually. And I think it's producer's privilege to keep things moving along and creating an interesting outcome. It was an exciting, fun game. And what I want to say about it was that it was fun, that we had fun together. In no way, right?

in no way was that relaxing or calming. To me, to Jesse, Jesse ended up feeling bad. And I don't know. To Brent, I'm not sure how he felt about it. But I mean, was it relaxing to you? No. I mean, here's the thing, Maite,

I think that this is a game where people feel put on the spot and forced to prove their intelligence. And that's not relaxing to most people. and I dare say not to Brent. I can understand why it would be relaxing to you if you are primarily the person giving the clue because then you don't have to prove your own intelligence. All you have to do is flaunt your own intelligence.

And that I find to be extremely relaxing. That's why in our automobile family road trips, we take turns. It's obviously an advantage to being the person, person giving the clue. It's a much better feeling than being the person who is literally clueless, which is a horrible feeling to have. And then feeling like you're going to lose and be judged and you're going to have to flop your feet in order for your spouse to feel good or whatever it is going on in your bedroom. First of all, games should be fun. And I think that

when Jesse talks about the fact that he feels bad, both when he loses games and when he wins games, and therefore he avoids games, that shows a lot of self-knowledge about the fact that games can often be anxiety-producing in any direction. And I think that it's interesting to me, at least, to say the least, that for you, the fun of the game is enjoying Brent failing. There's another kind of fun to have, which is when the person guesses correctly and picks up what you've been laying down. That's not fun for you. But the way you're playing now is not really fun for Brent either.

And one of the laws of Court of Judge John Hodgman, as I'm reminded time and time again when I forget to say it, is that if it's not fun for everyone, it's no fun at all. Torturing Brent is not fun for Brent. It's fun for you. I get it. I understand why. Brent does need to improve.

of his game, however. And I think there are strategies for playing 20 questions that you can read up on that I think will help you get out of these gray area questions and get your winning quotient up a little bit further. And in that regard, I do rule in my day's favor. But overall, I rule in Brent's favor because a game has to be fair. That means defining the rules very clearly ahead of time. Like, when do you say yes, when do you say no? When do you say, I don't know, when do you say maybe? And what does that mean?

And do you need to get an extra question if the person doesn't know the answer to one question? You know, you figure it out. Establish the rules. But the fairest form of fair play is turnabout. And that means you got to take turns, having the clue. It can't just be you every time, my day.

it's got to go back and forth because there's one version of this game that is fun and there's one version of this game where it's just anxiety producing and it just depends on who's playing what position and the real joy of the game is that when someone stumps you then you get to mess with them directly afterward

and everyone should write this down you're never going to have a happy marriage unless you allow your spouse revenge. Maybe that's not something I should say out loud. But the point is, you got to take turns. This is the sound of a gavel. I want to ask you a bunch of questions. I want to have them answered immediately.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Maitei, how are you feeling? I'm at peace. I feel like I can live with this ruling. Brent, how are you feeling? Yes, very good. It's a fair ruling.

I think there's a good compromise there that I'm more than happy to enact. Brent, my day. Thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgeman podcast. Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgeman case is in the books. In just a second, we will have swift justice. First, our thanks to Redator Little Sad Rufus for naming this week's episode Animal Vegetable Criminal. Great name. Join the conversation over on the maximum

fun subreddit. John, that's at Reddit.com slash R slash maximum fun. That's where we ask for these title suggestions. You can also check out the title suggestions there. Evidence and photos from the show posted on our Instagram account. That's at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We're also on TikTok and YouTube at Judge John Hodgman pod. Follow and subscribe to see episodes and video-only content. And speaking of YouTube, our YouTube comment of the week this week comes from user

at 80 SGMA-10. In our comfort feuds episode recently, we have the great Deb Perilman and Kenji Lopez Alt of the Recipe podcast, and we were discussing the big controversy over whether chili has beans or not. Real chili? Does it have beans?

At 80SGMA-10 says, quote, I'm a vegetarian. my chili is all beans. You stay all beans at ADSGMA 10. Thank you so much for watching and commenting on YouTube where we always have a blast reading your comments. Please go check out our YouTube channel at Judge John Hodgman Pod on YouTube. We have whole episodes there, often YouTube only extras. And, of course, your chance to like, share, subscribe, and leave a comment, all of which helps our show reach more people.

So thank you. John, those commenters are often full of being. beans. They're all full of beans. Don't get Jesse Thorne started on beans. Fake fat juicy beans. Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This podcast edited by AJ McKeon. Our video editor is Daniel Spear. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Okay, you ready for swift justice? I am ready for swift justice. Comatic on the Maxfund subreddit says, while putting up closet shelves, my wife very earnestly said, I wish I was a little bit taller.

Equally, I responded, I wish I was a baller. Was she right to be upset with me, or is there a ski-low carve-out? Only now have I ever learned the rest of the lyrics

of that song? Really? Yeah. I mean, I heard it so many times, but all I can remember, because of my bad brain. And I'm not talking about the lyrics of a bad brain song.

I'm talking about my brain functions badly. Right. I wish I were a little bit taller. I wish it was a baller. But then you pulled a rabbit out of a hat? I wish I had a rabbit and a hat with a bat and a six foot Impala. Six four.

There'd be a six four impala, I would think. Six four Impala. I read it wrong over here on the lyrics website that I was looking at. Hey, I like that. song. It's a great song. And if you say, I wish I was a little bit taller, you've got to, you've got to imagine. I wish I was a baller. It was coming back at you from the universe somehow. So, sorry, have fun. Have fun with your, with your rap music quotes. And, you know, there's

always time for fun, even when putting up closet shelves. That's one of those songs that, like, people who don't really like hip hop talk about a lot. And I heard it the other day. And I was like, oh, well, yeah, that's just because it rules. It's a great song. It's a very, very catchy. It's a Totally great song. Yeah, it's a great song. By the way, the leaves are falling from the trees. We're inching towards all Hallows Eve. You know what that means.

It's cozy goth season. Cozy disputes are what we're looking for now. Do you like a lot of throw blankets, but your roommate doesn't want blankets thrown all over the place? Are you ready to decorate for Christmas, even though it's not even Halloween yet? Well, you're wrong, but I want to hear about it. Do you want to use that fireplace?

But your partner says it's, too soon in the season? What are your cozy disputes? I want to know them. Send them to me at Maximumfund.org or email me directly at Hodgman at maximum fund.org. I read all of your disputes. I sort them. I love them. I enjoy them. I put them in for the cozy goth do that we're going to do. I put them in for a regular episode. I put them over there for the New York Times magazine, everyone gets read and appreciated by me. And it doesn't even have to be just cozy golf disputes, right? Jesse, could be any kind of dispute. No matter what your dispute is, big or small, we judge them all. Maximumfund.org slash J.J.H.O is where to go to submit them.

And please do. Maximumfund.org slash J.J.H.O. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. A worker-owned network of artists-owned shows. Supported directly by you.