Judge John Hodgman - Arraigning Cats and Dogs

Episode Date: March 19, 2014

A couple clash over getting a pet. She wants a dog, he wants a cat. Who RULES and who DROOLS?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, a reigning cats and dogs. Eileen brings the case against her boyfriend, Tyler. They recently moved from Brooklyn to Los Angeles, and Eileen thinks it's the right time to get a dog, specifically a corgi. Tyler is a cat person and says a cat would be the better pet. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Oh, Bailiff Jesse, you should see my corgis at sunset in the snow. It's their finest hour. About five o'clock, they glow like copper. Then they come in and lie in front of the fire like a string of sausages. And that's when I'm ready to hear justice. Swear them in, please.

Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his own private menagerie contains only capybaras, the world's largest rodent? I do. Yes. Very well, Judge Hodgman.

Oh, were it only true. If I had myself a little clutch of capybaras, I would walk through Prospect Park with them trailing me. That'd be adorable. Have you ever seen an internet video of capybara swimming in a swimming pool? It's great. It's so great. I've not, I've not seen it,

but now I have a new ambition, which is to be the king of Capybara swimming videos and the, and the queen of park slope being trailed by my, by my Capybara herd. Oh, Eileen and Tyler, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in your favor. Can either of you name the

piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered the courtroom? I'll give you a hint. The last sentence, and that's when I'm ready to hear justice, is not part of the original quote, and B, makes no sense. I should have said, I'm now ready to meet out justice. I'm not going to make Mark McConville edit that in. You're just going to have to use your mind editors for that

one. But the rest of the quote, you should see my corgis at sunset in the snow. It's their finest hour. About five o'clock, they glow like copper. Then they come in and lie in front of the fire like a string of sausages. Tyler, I know you don't have no idea what I'm talking about because you hate dogs. Right. Yep. But Eileen, if I read my brief correctly, you had at least one corgi when you were growing up. One or more. Are you allowed

to buy only one? Usually you have five or six, right? You usually should have like a fleet of corgis, but we only had one. Okay. So do you know the origin of that quote? Is it Tasha Tudor? Wow. Wow. Eileen, I thought you might get it and you did. Can you tell me where, can you tell me what work it is from? Is it Corgi Vilfair? I don't think it is. No, it is not Corgi Vilfair. I got so excited that you got something wrong when I said Corgi Gilfair. Corvi Gilfair. No, it's not Corgi Vilfair, nor is it Corgi Vil Christmas, which only the weird Tasha Tudor fans are going to be getting at this point. It is from the private life, excuse me, the private world of Tasha Tudor,

which was her autobiography. So I will not give you that summary judgment, although let's face it, you deserve it. What is Tasha Tudor? which was her autobiography. So I will not give you that summary judgment, although let's face it, you deserve it. What is Tasha Tudor? All right, Jesse. Tasha Tudor is a famous children's book illustrator and author who died in 2008 at the age of 92 in her home state of Vermont. I believe it was her home state.

Anyway, that's where she died, who is famous for writing many books for children and for young women, but is particularly famous in my home and Eileen's, obviously, for having written more than one book about Corgyville, which is a rural town either in New England or old England, in which corgis walk around on their hind legs and sip tea and visit each other. And it's not just corgis either. There are also rabbits who walk around on hind legs and

cats. And somehow they don't end up, the cats don't end up eating their neighbors. And then chickens and roosters also. And they naturally walk around on their hind legs. And indeed in Corgyville Christmas, which look, these are not books from my childhood because I was an all American boy. I read Belgian boy detective Tonton books.

By the way, why, you know, Tintin, or pronounced Tonton appropriately, why has there not been a Star Wars Tonton crossover T-shirt in which Captain Haddock is cutting open Tintin with a lightsaber saying he thought these things smelled bad on the outside. Come on, Internet, because it's too gruesome, right? It's weird. It's murder. I guess it's not good. Never mind.

Where were we? Oh, yeah. Corrieville Christmas was brought into my home by my wife to read to our daughter. And this thing is insane. Yes. It's very, it's very charming, but it is also deranged because you have all of these animals walking around in waistcoats and they're keeping other animals.

So it's, it really isn't all that far from a man wearing another man's skin. No, it's not. Like all the best children's and young adults literature, it is deranged. And they use goats the way

human animals would use horses as beasts of burden because of the size differential. But then the rabbits are as tall as the corgis, which is monstrous to think. There are some Dutch rabbits that I think get that big, but it's creepy. But even that, I mean, you know, animals using animals as animals is a long-storied trope in literature. I mean, I refer, of course, to Mickey Mouse keeping a dog, a monstrously proportioned mouse owning a dog while being friends with another dog that is sentience. Which, by the way, if you haven't read John Moe's new book, Dear Luke, We Have to Talk, Signed Dad, Crossed Out Darth, he has an amazing, funny essay about Mickey Mouse owning Pluto that is a brilliant oral history of madness.

But look it up anyway. It's coming out soon. John Moe, host of The Wits on the thing. We're never going to hear your case. I'm just going to talk about these things because I'm fascinated. And then, even though you have dogs using goats as beasts of burden, which is strange enough, they slip in a really weird thing in Corgyville Christmas, where a new family comes to town. Do you remember this, Eileen? Chickahominy? Mr. Chickahominy? The weird creatures. Oh, I forgot about those. Right. Okay. Well, table those for a second. Okay. I was going to say, the most provocative and transgressive thing in these books is they are basically, you know, rural Jane Austen-y sort of village tales.

And yet Chickahominy comes to town and he's a peddler which is some code for something right he's a traveling peddler and he's a rooster and he comes to town and it just casually says with his with his mother-in-law and his two wives and i think one of the wives names was jemima cluck or something or evangelina cluck or something something dumb like that but cluck or something, something dumb like that. But the other wife's name was Nesta Cropsey. I'll never forget it. Nesta Cropsey. And then Eileen,

you are also mentioning a side. So on top of all of this woven into all of this madness is what you, you say, Eileen, what are they? They're like, they look like balls of yarn that Walker, I can't remember what they're called. Boggarts. They're called boggarts. Yeah.

Really scary. Yeah. These traditional in, in traditional rural, uh, English, uh, fairy lore, a boggart was a, was a bad, a bad brownie or a bad silky, a bad house spirit who was mischievous. But the boggarts in Corgi Gilfair were, were not, were not bad. They were a bad silky, a bad house spirit who was mischievous. But the Boggarts in Corgy Guild Fair were not bad. They were neighbors, but they looked exactly, they looked like balls of lint with stick arms. And they walked around and one of them was named Mert. I remember that too. You know, Judge Hodgman, when you were reading all that stuff about how about five o'clock they glow like copper, it was just my assumption. And I think a reasonable assumption that it was a quotation from action film director Michael Bay, who's known for his love affair with the Magic Hour.

And the more I hear a description of Corgyville Fair, I kind of feel like this is a connection we should make. We should send him a couple of paperbacks and see if we can get some kind of middleman role in brokering a licensing deal. Corgyville Christmas in particular was one of Tasha Tudor's last works that came out in 2003 or four when she was, you know, just a few years before she died. And it clearly is a twilight work, speaking of the magic hour, the twilight of her sanity but i love it's they're very charming i love them but if you want to have fun go on goodreads uh or amazon and read some of the one or two star reviews because people can some people just it does not compute as well one woman wrote anne wrote on goodreads i wasn't thrilled with this book it's a cute enough premise about a

fair in a world where dogs and cats walk upright and take on human-esque jobs. But the story felt disjointed to me. I found it a little disturbing that many of the characters smoked cigars and that one of the goats was put on a strict diet so it would be fit for the race at the fair. And that because of a series of events, the goat ends up with dietary problems for the rest of its life. You know, that happened to me one time when I was prepping for a race at the fair. I know. You were the world's fastest boy five years running, right? Yeah.

And now I have dietary problems for the rest of my life. World's fastest boy five years running. A five-year boy running race is a dystopian premise that would be good for a young adult series of novels. All right. So we all made a million dollars. What is the problem here? Eileen, you had corgis,

you had corgi as a child. What was the name of your corgi? Yes. It was, what was the name of your corgi? Printer. Printer. Printer.

Daisy will computer printer. Yeah. I hear you. I hear you. Just come. was it named after a piece of a computer peripheral it was named by um the breeder he was supposed to be a show dog and his father's name was ink spot and so their logic was that their son was named Printer. And we were just too lazy to change it. That's the perfect mad dream logic of a dog breeder. All right, adorable.

And you guys have lived in Brooklyn for a while. Now you have moved to, I believe, Silver Lake, Los Angeles? Yes. Which is the most Brookly-y area of Los Angeles, correct? It's true, yes. And you want to get a dog, Eileen and Tyler, you say no. Yeah.

Right. All right. Let me ask you a few questions and then you can state your cases. Okay. How old are, how old are you guys? I am 30. I'm 27.

Okay. And you guys have been, you guys are a romantic couple or just roommates romantic couple and how long have you been together four and a half yeah something like four and a half four or five years four okay great and you and you cohabit yes yep you cohabitate i should say correct would you would you know that I disapprove of. I disapprove of premarital cohabitation because you have all of the problems of marriage and none of the legal protections. You become financial partners with someone who is a romantic partner. It is usually a pain in the neck more than it is anything else,

but we love each other. Great. That's all I'm saying. I'm just putting, just putting it out there. Yeah. Okay. So Eileen,

you want to get a dog now? You believe now is the time. Why go? Because we, we now have a house. We have a nice yard. This is a great area for dogs there's a dog park walking distance away um tyler travels for his job so i'm home alone probably up for like a week out of every month and it'd be nice to and i you know it's a new place i don't know a lot of

people um and it's lonely so it'd be nice to know a lot of people. Um, and it's lonely. So it'd be nice to have a dog to keep me company. Might be able to meet people at the dog park with my dog. Cause you can't just go to a dog park by yourself. No, you'd be, you'd be arrested. Yeah. Um, so I did, it just, and I had dogs growing up, so it's just, I miss having dogs. Tyler, you, you think this is a terrible idea. Why? Well, I think that we're still renting. We don't own, you know, our house or anything. So I would rather wait until we have, you know, it's not like, you know, when you're looking for apartments, it's really hard to find one to begin with. And then if a lot of them, it kind of limits your options if you have a dog.

Also, we're not always here. We go on like bike trips for a couple of days. We do other stuff like we're not around a lot or not all the time. So I don't really want the extra kind of constraint of having a dog and having to look after one and, and all that. Also, I don't love corgis so much, but that's kind of a different issue, but let's table,

let's table, let's table your corgi racism for a moment. Okay. And let's table the, we go on bike trips all the time in full flower of youth. We are a vibrant young couple argument for a little while okay um because it just makes me mad okay you can do that whenever you want uh and and let's go back to the the you're renting not owning thing jesse bailiff jesse you live in los angeles is that not so that

is true uh and do you own your home or do you rent your home, if it's not too personal to ask? I recently purchased a home, but rented a home for many years. And you have had dog slash dogs for a number of years as well, correct? That's true. Now, Tyler is new to the neighborhood. You can tell he knows nothing about L.A. That's why they went to go hide out in the most Brooklyn area of L.A. Because they're afraid of all the rest of LA. And they're afraid they probably have a terrible prejudice against LA. And they're afraid that they're going to be absorbed by the hive mind that is Los Angeles. So they're holding out in, they're holing up, I should say,

in the last bastion of Greenpoint that exists in Los Angeles. Am I wrong on any of those points, guys? We lived in South Brooklyn, but yes, everything else is true. Correct. So they don't know a whole lot. Jesse, does Tyler's argument hold any water with regard to it would be difficult for them to move to another apartment or rented house if they had a dog with? I moved twice in Los Angeles with a dog. And I found that relative to New York, where as I understand it, it's very difficult to find an apartment.

I understand that primarily from sitcom plots. from sitcom plots. I found that it was not a big difficulty to find a house that accommodated a dog or even an apartment that accommodated a dog. What I did, and this is just sort of an insider pro tip, was I clicked the little box on Craigslist that said pets allowed. Whoa, what?

When I was searching for an apartment. And that somehow filtered down the number of apartments to ones that allowed pets? Yeah, it's like, I don't know, it uses computers. I don't understand it completely, but it worked pretty well. You lost me on that. An app of some kind? It's like an app. I honestly, look, I'm no techno geek.

You know, I don't live in the cyber future. I'm right here in God's United States of America. You're not a click click nerd. No, of course not. You're the fastest boy in America, five years running. Exactly. I'm an athlete. I'm a jock.

I'm a dog lover. Of course, I'm a farmer. Look, I'm more comfortable reading a Tauntaun comic. Yeah, exactly. Exactement, as they would say in Belgium. Than some cyber page. Right. So, Tyler, now

that we have dismissed of your it-would-be-difficult-to-rent argument as either born of ignorance or the desire to deceive me, let's set that aside for a moment and get to what is really at play here. You don't like corgis. You don't want to live with a dog. Why not?

Well, it's not that I don't want to live with a dog. It's, I really, just really quickly, when we got this place, there was us and like five or six other people. And the realtor made the comment that one of the reasons was, oh, and you didn't have a dog. So that was, so that's kind of part of it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Do you live in a commune? What are you, are you rebuilding the source family? What do you mean you're living with five or six? it's between five or six other there are other applications five other

five other applications on this house you got your current home in silver lake and the realtor said the thing that gave you the edge right was that you didn't have a dog what do you do for a living uh architecture you are an architect yeah do you work for a living? Architecture. You are an architect? Yeah. Do you work at a firm? No, I work out of my house. Are you self-employed? Yeah. Do you make a good living? Okay. Not

great. Not horrible. Eileen, what do you do? I'm a screenwriter. Oh, boy. Okay. Do you work for a firm? No, I do not. You work for one of those screenwriting companies?

Yes. Are you partner track? Hopefully. And do you make a living that way? No, I'm trying. Okay. I'm trying. Okay.

So yeah, obviously, obviously you're not having a dog was definitely an advantage against all the other deadbeats that were also going for this apartment. Yeah. And now Tyler, if you got a dog, you would feel guilty because you had, you had weaseled your way into this nice place on the premise that you are

non-dog owners. And now you'd be going back on your word, right? Um, yeah, a little bit. We we have we'd have to get in writing or whatever just ask ask them but mostly i'm just worried because we're not going to necessarily live in this apartment for you know every year house so you know the next one we find it's going to be the same thing well how long do you expect to live in this house uh it could be a year. They just recently inherited it, so they don't really know what they're doing with it. So it could be a year or, you know, I don't know. Do you live in proximity to your landlords and ladies? I think she lives in Burbank, so she's not too far away.

It's not like you're living above... Oh, no. We have the house for ourselves. You're not living above Mr. and Mrs. Roper. No. You're going to have to pretend that the dog is your gay roommate or something. Yeah. Have you ever thought about buying a wig for the dog and dressing it up in people clothes? Sure.

If not to deceive someone, then just for kicks. dressing it up in people clothes. If not to deceive someone, then just for kicks. Have you ever thought about getting a newfound land dog and just telling people that that's a man in a dog costume? It's your friend who's involved in the furry community. Yeah. Do you feel that it is reasonable, Tyler, that if you were to get a dog that your landlord or lady,

is it landlady in this case? Yes. Yeah. All right. That the owner of this home might say, you've really let me down and I'm not going to rent it to you after your lease is done? I don't think so. Okay. Probably not. Yeah. Tyler, is there another animal that you would be willing to get instead of a dog? Right. While we're renting, I want to get a cat. Do you actively want to get a cat or you want to get like a, a compromise cat compromise cat? You don't want to have any pet whatsoever. I don't have a strong desire. I mean, I like cats a lot and you know, it'd be great to have one, but I don't, you know, it's not like every day I wake up and think I got to get a cat today, but yeah. If that were true, I would recommend that you be committed

or at least seriously tested for toxoplasmosis. It's too many days and too many cats, man. Did you have cats growing up? Yeah, we always had like two cats. And did you have any brothers or sisters? No. So you are an only child? Yeah, correct. And you almost certainly have toxoplasmosis.

Correct. So of course you like cats because only children are the cats of humanity they think they think they own everything they think that they think they're amazing and they think they deserve all your affection and they don't have to give any yes and they are also terrified of conflict uh have you ever seen a cat you know Have you ever seen a cat get really freaked out when it sees its own reflection in like a sliding window? Yeah. That's hilarious.

Have you ever seen a cat vomit and then another cat come over and try to eat that vomit? Not that. I love that too. I love when cats reveal that they have no dignity whatsoever. Hey, guys. It's me, Bailiff Jesse.

Let's take a quick break because it is Max Fun Drive time. I'm here with Judge Hodgman. Hi, Judge Hodgman. Hello, Jesse. It's Max Fun Drive time? Yeah, you bet it is. This is when we rive funds once a year? Yes, exactly.

That's what that means? That's right. Yeah, no, I'm looking at the word on the piece of paper here in front of me. I think that's correct. We rive funds. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, explain it to me like I don't know what you're talking about. Well, MaximumFun.org, the network in which this podcast is contained, is supported by donations from listeners.

And so once a year, and really we only do this once a year for two weeks, we ask for direct support from the audience, you know, a few bucks a month. Before we get into that too much, I kind of want to give people like a behind the scenes about the show so they get an idea of the, you know, of what goes into it. And I thought I would start with you, Judge Hodgman. You know, one of the things. First of all, I put on my robes, which costs many, many thousands of dollars, and I sit on my golden throne. No, that's not exactly that. It's more of a shoestring operation. I think that people who hear the show might think that your wisdom is purely off the cuff. And I know for a fact that this is something that you put a lot of thought and consideration to. I think it shows in the show. Maybe you can tell me a little bit about your deliberative

process. A lot of people don't know, Jesse, that the idea for the show really came from you. I started doing Judge John Hodgman as a segment on Jordan, Jesse Go. And I had a great time yelling at people and telling them what was true and wasn't true and why they were wrong. And so when it came time to do my own podcast, this was exactly the format I wanted to do because I love talking to people and hearing from people all over the country and hearing about their weird lives. Once we got deeper into the show, I started to realize it wasn't just conversations about whether or not a machine gun is a robot, although that still remains my favorite one. of times it's people figuring out what they're going to do with the next phase of their life, how they're going to resolve a conflict that has been brewing for a long time, and underlying every sort of small conflict about how to kill bats or not kill bats, often is a very human dispute between brothers, fathers and sons and daughters and mothers and

spouses and other kinds of relationships. And I think the thing that has always surprised me about the show is that every episode surprises me. I find something that totally blows me away each time where I realize, oh, this is what this is really about. oh, this is what this is really about. And while I appreciate the credit you give me for preparing, and it is true that I usually go through every case pretty carefully and try to tease out some things to talk about and try to get at some of the issues, I would say that almost every verdict is truly delivered

as off the cuff as it is once I've figured out, oh, this is what this is about. And now I can tell you what I think it's about. And I'm gratified that some of the litigants seem to believe that I've given them some insight into their lives, or at least they haven't yelled at me until they're off the air. You know, as the guy who writes the checks for this podcast, I can tell you that the list of names at the end of the show isn't a sort of honorary list. We have folks working on this show really hard. And it's not just Judge Hodgman.

You know, it's not just me showing up once a week to make some off-color cracks when I see the opportunity. You know, our producer, Julia Smith, works halftime on this show, digging up cases and pre-interviewing people and setting up people's microphones in remote places and teaching people how to record on Skype and all kinds of crazy stuff like that. And every week, Mark McConville spends hours cutting these shows together and putting them together so they are their best. And all of those things cost money,

which is why we're asking you to support MaximumFun.org. It's not a huge amount of money, but I think that you value this show or you wouldn't be listening while I talk about the boring pledge drive. So go to MaximumFun.org slash donate. For $10 a month, there is a really, really cool gift. Judge Hodgman, I don't know if you had ever before dreamed that one day someone would paint a realistic watercolor portrait of you as a cat, but it has happened. It is one of my favorite things in the world. But it has happened.

It is one of my favorite things in the world. And we have taken a group of watercolor portraits of every Max Fund personality painted by the wonderful artist Megan Lincott and compiled them into an 18-month calendar, which you get if you donate at the $10 a month level. In addition to bonus content from Judge John Hodgman from this year and past years and all of our MaxFun shows. And all you have to do is go to MaximumFun.org slash donate or just go to MaximumFun.org and click on donate. It is easy. It's fast. And frankly, it's not a lot of sweat.

And when you listen to this show, you will get a good feeling and think, oh, I am one of the people who allows this thing to happen. I'm not some freeloading chump. I'm the person who said, you know what? That is actually something I care about and I think is worth a few bucks. And all you have to do is go to MaximumFun.org slash donate. Anyway, we'll talk about all of the gifts you can get when you donate and all that cool stuff a little later in the show, but let's get back to the case. Seriously, this cat calendar, though, Jesse, if you've ever imagined what I look like as a cat, Megan Lynn Cott has imagined it for you. It's uncanny.

And so now let's get to your prejudice. Why not Corgi specifically? And so now let's get to your prejudice. Why not Corgis specifically? If I was going to get a dog, I would want to get something that you could go hiking and it would be kind of a, I don't know, more robust dog. Corgis have short, squat little legs and they kind of like, I mean, they wobble around and it looks like they kind of have trouble moving, which I think Eileen couldn't deny that. It just doesn't really seem like a good dog, you know? Yeah, I have to say, Eileen, you know, I think corgis are adorable. But the first time I saw a corgi, I was like, oh, there's a deformed regular dog.

Or something terrible happened to that dog. Maybe I might have seen your family out with a printer at one point. I would have said to myself, that's so nice that that family adopted that dog after a maniac chopped its legs off. Yeah. But having grown up with corgis, you are basically the only corgi expert we have here. It's a tremendous conflict of interest. But how do you respond to Tyler's claims? They are great dogs. I grew up in Montana, so we would take our dog hiking.

He was fantastic. I mean, you have to help them over large obstacles. But once they get over that, like rocks and a stick like a stump yes like a piece of rice higher than a stair you generally have to help them but they're very robust and they can't run very far but they will try and they're they're great let me ask you a question. Have you ever owned any other kind of dog? Yes. We had a Border Collie for a little while in high school. Bonkers, right?

Bonkers. Those dogs are bonkers. It was insane. That dog was insane. Yeah. Those dogs got to run. Border Collies have a job to do, and that is to get sheep in a place. Yes.

Did the Border Collie try to herd your couch cushions into the middle of the room ever? No, it would herd us. Our corgi herded us too. It'd bite your ankles when you moved. Yeah, what's the background on corgis? Why are they that way? Do you know? They were used for sheep herding.

And so they would nip at the ankles of sheep to get them to where they need to go. sheep herding and so they would nip at the ankles of sheep to get them to where they need to go and so when they kicked they wouldn't get kicked in the face because they're so little so they were bred to be so short so they could nip at the heels of sheep and not get kicked in the face and not get kicked in the face and they would nip your own heels they would nip our heels if we were playing with them and running around the yard they would our dog would nip us try to get you try to get you through yeah try to get you through through the fence into the circle exactly win a prize yes all right how do you answer tyler's uh claim that you guys go uh bicycle riding all the time. Is that true? Um, not well in New York, we went maybe one, well, we went on like two bike trips in New York. Um, we like, we'll go on a Saturday,

we'll go on a bike ride, but it's not like a weekend thing. It's not something we do every weekend. We might do it once a month. So it's something you're willing to give up in order to look after and pick up the feces of a perpetual infant for the next 10 years. Yes. And it's something that I do have friends from college here that would love to watch a dog if we are going to go on any bike ride that lasts over an afternoon. But you know, you're not living in New York anymore. You're not living in South Brooklyn. You're living in California. And the amount of time that you can be outside is much greater. And your proximity to nature, despite the incredible urban sprawl that is

Los Angeles, it is in many ways a much more wild and rural place than you think. You might actually, if that's something that you want to pursue, you may not realize it yet, but you could actually do a lot more outdoor activity than you might have in South Brooklyn. Do I speak wrongly, Jesse? You're absolutely correct. Los Angeles has some of the largest urban parks in the world, including Griffith Park, which is right near where our litigants live, which is an enormous park, multiple times the size of, say, Golden Gate Park in San Francisco or Central Park in New York.

People go hiking up there all the time. It's a beautiful place to go hiking, visit the observatory, go to a concert. There's all kinds of things you can do there. And you take a corgi up there, that thing's going to get snatched up by a falcon right quick. Oh, no. Well, I'd give it a falcon hat. What's that? You give the corgi a falcon hat?

That's not how a falcon hat works. You've got to put the hat on the falcon. Right. Okay, so then, okay, fine, then I would put the hat on the falcon. Right. Okay. So then, okay, fine. Then I would put the hat on the falcon. Oh, you out-funk me. I guess you win. No, I don't think. But there are some big birds of prey up there on Griffith Park, right?

Yeah, sure. There's birds of prey. There's coyotes. There's all kinds of stuff. But, you know, it's a place where people, where there's tons of great places to take your dog off leash and have a great time and go for a beautiful hike and have a, see a beautiful vista of Los Angeles. It's a lovely place. And I hear Tyler trying to jump in going, yeah, yeah, our dog's going to get swooped up on by an eagle or something. But just for the record, Jesse, you have two small dogs, right? I do. And have either

of them ever been in talent by a large bird of prey? No, they haven't. Once I did have to pick them up because there was a coyote walking down the middle of my street like it wasn't no thing. But that's about it. That's a real thing too, you know, Tyler, if you were to get a cat and you have a backyard, that cat, that cat's going to go away right quick. Bruce, Bruce, Bruce Campbell, the star of Evil Dead and my former client when I was a literary agent lost about three or four cats to coyotes. Wow. And we left them outside. Now, I don't think he was, I don't know if he was living in Silver Lake.

We've got coyotes. Yeah. That's a wild place out there. I'll tell you what, Judge Hodgman. I lived in Silver Lake with my small dog, and I saw coyotes on the street on multiple occasions. Just walking down the street? Yeah, that's true. Were they on their hind legs?

Yes, they were. And now that I think about it, they were riding goats. Was it Coyoteville Christmas? I said riding down the street, but they were actually, the goats were doing the walking and the coyotes were up on the goats. I've heard that about Silver Lake. I went to a house in Laurel Canyon one time and to do a house show. And in fact, it was the house where Joni Mitchell lived with Graham Nash. That's the, our house is a very, very, very fine house. I later learned she doesn't live there anymore.

So that was the house. And Laurel Canyon is, you know, right off of Sunset Boulevard, like Strip Mall USA, all of a sudden you are in the house. And Laurel Canyon is, you know, right right off of Sunset Boulevard, like Strip Mall USA. All of a sudden you are in the woods and on the refrigerator of this house was a pest control pricing sheet for trapping all of the wildlife that was coming into the backyard. And they listed skunks. They listed rats. They listed raccoons. And then they listed all kinds of things that you wouldn't expect from an urban center. And then finally, rattlesnakes. And they wouldn't even give a price.

It just said, priced according to danger. Which is maybe a new Judge John Hodgman t-shirt. Does any of that put you off of your scheme to get a cat? Well, our backyard is totally gated, so I wouldn't be as worried about letting a cat out there. You think that gate is going to keep out a coyote that walks on its hind legs and wears a zoot suit? Yeah, maybe not. A zoot suit. Yeah. Eileen, would you accept a cat as a compromise pet?

Yeah. I mean, I don't want to rule out a dog ever um but i would accept a cat for yeah i don't want a dog yeah right yeah thank you for being honest yeah once in your life now eileen if you say it's a it's a it's say it's a corgi or nothing, I think, Tyler, you feel very comfortable saying, okay, nothing. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Right. Do you ever want to, do you really want a cat?

Yes or no? Is that me or Tyler? I want a cat. You want a cat? I want a cat, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Um, are you guys not to be, uh, are you guys planning to build a life together in a married or unmarried lifelong partner state? Yeah. Barring any unforeseen circumstances, that's where you're heading.

Yeah. Do you think that you would want to have children? Yeah. Yeah. Hypothetically. Hyp. Meh. Yeah. Hypothetically? Hypothetically. That's the tone you want to have going into having children, by the way. You know that I'm a devoted father, but that's pretty much the tone I had.

It wasn't until after, well, we'll save that for later. Tyler, you suggested that another dog might be more palatable to you if I were to order you to get a dog? Yeah. A dog, I'd almost be inclined just to go to like a shelter or something, find some sort of dog that was medium height and could, you know, not need help over obstacles. But just, you know, some mixed breed or something, not have to go buy a dog from a breeder. I hope you guys aren't considering buying a dog from a breeder. No, it would be through an adoption or, like, all of our, both of our,

I mean, our corgi was through, it was a discount corgi. From a breeder? From a breeder, but it wasn't a $2,000 dog. It was, like, $200. No, that's not what it's about, though, oh yeah it's not about the price the price isn't why i'm disappointed that you might consider buying a dog from a breeder i'm not trying to look out for your bottom line go on jesse why why why for for my purposes as a non i've never owned a dog and i and i probably never will why should i not go to a breeder to get the precise genetic dog that i want well listen i

this is going to be my personal opinion and we'll get some emails about this i'm sure but But, you know, purebred dogs are purebred to do specific tasks. And if you are a sheep farmer who needs a purebred dog to tend to, you know, to tend to sheep without getting kicked in the head, I can absolutely understand wanting to buy a dog and needing to know its lineage and so forth. But I think for most people who are in the 21st century buying a dog for their home, when you buy a dog from a breeder, you're supporting an economy that encourages breeders to essentially have bad breeding practices, which lead to bad health outcomes for the dogs, to overbreeding, which leads to dogs being euthanized. And you have the opportunity to adopt a dog that otherwise might be euthanized or have to live its life in a shelter, that otherwise might be euthanized or have to live its life in a shelter, which I think is a really wonderful opportunity. And when I think about my dogs that I've had now for, I think, I guess three or four and five or six years respectively,

one of the things that I'm really happy about is that they get to have a really happy life with me rather than, you know, one of them lived in an animal shelter, and one of them was a street dog in Tijuana. And, you know, I think that's a really wonderful opportunity that you have when you adopt a dog to save a dog's life, really. And none of those things have to do with price. I mean, the truth is, you're going to spend many, many thousands of dollars on your dog over the over its life. So whether you're giving 250 bucks to a rescue organization or, you know, 250 bucks for a discount dog from a dog dealer, you know, I don't think the money is the central issue. I think it's a matter of practicality and morality. Yeah.

Well, do you feel terrible enough yet, Eileen? Yes, I do. That's all very good points. I will say that having been said, Judge Hodgman, that having been said, I do think that if, you know, for whatever reason, you feel that a specific particular breed of dog and its characteristics that have been bred into it are the best for your family, there are plenty of rescue groups that specialize in particular breeds. I mean, my aunt runs a rescue group that

does snow dogs, you know, huskies and malamutes up in—now, I do not recommend that you adopt a husky or a malamute. No. Because they're the worst. They're a nightmare. They're very stupid. Very beautiful. Very beautiful and very bright but really intense. But, you know, I'm sure there is a corgi rescue organization.

You get a corgi or a corgi mix from them. Yes, there are quite a few in California. Yeah. So I, you know, I, I, I understand why you might consider to have a specific breed, but I, I would say, I would suggest from my perspective that maybe it's a good idea to rescue rather than buy from a breeder. And I, and I will simply say, knowing, you know, I think everything you've said, Jesse is, is very well said. And certainly if I were going to bring a dog into my family's life, I would absolutely first go to a rescue dog for the very clear principle that you laid out. But this isn't, I don't know, I don't know that it's necessary to tar the entire breeding industry with the brush of disdain. I don't know.

I understand that there are a lot of disreputable breeders. There have to be reputable breeders, too. I mean, they have to exist. Would that not be so? They do exist. And there are people who, I mean, from my perspective, there are relatively few reasons that you would require a purebred dog from a breeder rather than a dog from an adoption organization. At the end of the day, there's no need to pay someone to make dogs to make more dogs when there's dogs that will be euthanized every day around the country. There There are a lot of dogs out there and a lot of them are short.

And this goes for cats as well. I mean, obviously this goes for cats and indeed all kinds of animals. But, you know, Tyler, I would imagine that if you wanted to bring a cat into your life. Oh, yeah, I would try and adopt one from a shelter or something. But I think that's what Eileen, she's always trolling the lost Corgi sites, like adopt a Corgi that's, you know, whatever, not from a breeder.

Is she driving around Corgiville late at night staring in the windows? Yes. What is that, Warner? That was a pure joke, but what? Oh, yeah, you're looking at them. One great thing about working with a rescue organization is that they really want the dog to be in a good home.

They're not trying to sell a dog. So, you know, they really will say, if you want to have this dog in your house for a couple of weeks and see how it feels and see if its personality works with your family and see if it, you know, you can handle having it and, you know, see how it responds to your training and so on and so forth, they will totally do it. And also a lot of times they will have trained it in advance to do, you know, basic training things like healing or, you know, going to the bathroom outside. basic training things like healing or, you know, going to the bathroom outside.

I just had immediately had a picture of this dog healing a wound. A corgi in a 19th century nurse's outfit bandaging, putting a splint on Tyler's leg. I like to imagine the dog like doing Wolverine type stuff. So we're all briefed on responsible ways to bring animals into your lives if that's what you so choose to do. But we are still left with this conflict. Eileen, if I were to find in your favor, what would you like me to order that we can get a dog and that a corgi is an option or as a breed. So all or nothing. And we can also get a cat.

We can get a cat and a dog. Like there's compromise. We both get what we want. You understand that couples and, you know, I'm a little bit older than you. And I, I've seen, I've seen a few things. And one of the things I've seen over and over again is couples in your position who are young, but entering a more mature phase in their lives. And they're in a committed relationship and they're kind of thinking about having kids. And you know what they do? They get a dog dog so many couples get a dog as a rehearsal child and you know what happens within a year they have a kid they realize oh yeah i got this and then that and then that dog

and then that dog is like what happened to me and is confused and and is put and is put into a crate under the table for the rest of its life. That's not true. Is that, I want to know before I make a ruling, is this what's happening? Is this a rehearsal child? I want you to think seriously before you answer. We would not, we're, kids aren't even an option probably for another like five years. Yeah. Why?

We got stuff to do. It's because, Judge Hodgman, it's because they live in los angeles yeah it's it's literally illegal for a person that works in the entertainment industry in los angeles to have a child before age 37 uh i would say i would say this i think you guys are you guys uh if you're a committed couple you guys have children whenever it's right for you but don't wait forever because it's tiring when you have youth on your side it's great any of any amount of youth you can get you can retain before you have that child go for it but that's maybe for a a sequel visit to this courtroom when i'm telling you when you are when you are allowed to breed.

But for the, for the time being, I'm hearing this case. I understand your position, Eileen Tyler. What would you like me to order? If I find in your favor, I'd like to order that we could get a dog when we have a house and that we

could get a cat as a compromise cat in before then. Tyler, do you mean when you own a house? Yeah. I think I've heard everything that I need to hear in order to make my decision. I'm going to ride my goat back into my thatched roof chambers and have a cup of tea, and then I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Tyler, we got to talk man to man right now. I've been in your position.

My wife wanted to get a dog. I was a little scared to get a dog. I didn't grow up with a dog in the house that much. I have to ask you this question. Are you trying to avoid a dog? Is a cat a cop out in order to try and avoid getting a dog, is a cat a cop-out in order to try and avoid getting a dog because you know that a dog is the first step on the road to a baby? I hadn't thought of the dog as some sort of entry level to babies, but no.

Yes. Okay. Then yes, I do not want to get a dog for that reason. then yes I do not want to get a dog for that reason no I think I just really think practically we're really still not quite there where it makes sense to get a dog

but I think a cat is really self sufficient and you know we could kind of leave it here whenever we do whatever we want and you know not a big deal Eileen let's do a role play I'll be everyone in your life besides Tyler You know, not a big deal. Eileen, let's do a role play. Okay. I'll be everyone in your life besides Tyler.

Okay. And you can be you. All right. Eileen, when are you guys going to get married and settle down? Ugh. Have you guys thought about just getting a house, getting a dog, getting married? I really want a dog, and I'm working on Tyler to get one. See, Tyler?

See? I'll tell you what, Tyler. I didn't want to get a dog. That was where I sort of acquiesced to my wife because I figured she knows better than I do because she usually does in most things. If we've ever learned anything from Judge John Hodgman, it's that. And when I got a dog, I love my dog more than anything. And even now that I have two children and two dogs, I love my dogs and take care of them all the time. I love walking them and spending time with them because dogs are the best.

They're your friend. Cats don't give a care about you. I mean, cats are lovely. You can pet them. You can play a little game with them sometimes, depending on the cat. Cat nips fun. No doubt about that. Tyler, how do you feel about your chances in the case i don't know i don't

know i think they're okay better than 50 50 but we'll see eileen how about you um i think i'd be i'd be happy with i want i want to win i hopefully i'll win i don't know we'll get a dog eventually and he's gonna love it he just, he's never had a dog. He just doesn't, it's like, you know, convincing people that living in California, people in New York that live in California is great. They just, if they've never lived outside of New York, just they have no concept. He's going to love it. Is that another thing that's going on with you and Tyler? No, it's, well, it's for both people we know in New York, but moving here, we're like,

it's the best. We're like, no, it's not. We're know in New York, but moving here, we're like, it's the best. Like, no, it's not. We're on the same page with that. Yeah, we love it. You can just drive your car over to Trader Joe's. It's no big deal. Instead of walking through the snow and rain. Yeah.

Well, Eileen, Tyler, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say when we come back in just a minute. Another quick pledge break. I'm here at Max Fun World Headquarters, bailiff Jesse Thorne with me, Judge Hodgman. Hi, Judge Hodgman. I'm in my secret chambers in Park Slope, Brooklyn, using technology to talk to my friend Jesse Thorne and all of you. It's Max Fun Drive. This is when we ask you to donate and help support the shows that you listen to, including this one right now. And why is it important, Jesse? Well, I think that this is a show that people laugh and enjoy on the basis of entertainment.

But I think when I hear from people, they tell me that they're touched by it. I was thinking of a particular case recently. And I don't know if you have particular fond memories about this case, Judge Hodgman. But the case is the right to remain silent. Do you remember that one? to Eugene and she felt too shy. And he wanted me to order her to talk to her heroes. And instead, I ordered him to read a poem aloud at a coffee shop. And of course, we also had Eugene Merman on to talk to her so that she was able to actually talk to him and overcome a little of her shyness. and overcome a little of her shyness. You know, one of the things that I love about doing the show is that I never know who's going to be on the other end of the conversation,

but I do know that I will never hear them on any other podcast or radio show. The true pleasure that I have for me, selfishly, is that I get to meet all kinds of people from all over the world doing all kinds of weird and interesting things. And I feel so grateful to them to come in and share some very personal parts of their lives and let me tell them that they're wrong. It's an amazing thing and I don't think you hear it anywhere else. And it's not uncommon in that regard among all the other MaxFun shows. I think if you listen to the MaxFun shows, this is why I chose the MaxFun network to do this podcast on,

is that you're hearing highly professionally produced shows with a lot of thought behind them. Nothing is just tossed off. It is something you're not going to hear anywhere else. Yeah, I agree completely. I think hearing those voices from all over everywhere is really one of the great pleasures of Judge John Hodgman. I especially like international cases. One of my favorite cases of this past year was the one that involved salsa dancing and a salsa dance teaching mother-in-law. I also think back fondly on a regular basis to the couples case that we had wherein the boyfriend, a European artsy type, refused to wash himself or his clothing. We have a lot of fun with these cases. But what I'm always impressed by, and I think what the audience is impressed by, is the fact that in the end, we get to know these people and we get some actual wisdom from you.

And I don't want to ask you to say anything about your wisdom because that would be immodest, but I will say that I am- I'm very, very, very, very wise. If you think Judge Hodgman is as wise as I think Judge Hodgman is wise, go to MaximumFun.org slash donate. I want to tell folks about what they get if they donate. So we mentioned that if you donate $5 a month or more, you get the bonus content, including the bonus episode that we've recorded and past year's bonus content and bonus content from all of our other shows, videos from MaxFunCon, all kinds of cool stuff. Well, $5 a month is great, Jesse, but say I want to up it a little bit.

Say I want to give $10 a month. Let's get serious. $10 a month, you get that calendar we talked about in the last break. $20 a month, which is the Diamond Friendship Circle, you get the Morning Essentials Kit. So it's a coffee mug, and we tested all these coffee mugs. This is a high-quality coffee mug with our MaxFun rocket ship logo. Stack soap, courtesy of our friends at Stack Soap, which is soap when it starts to go away, you know, when it starts to run out. Dematerialized, they call it, in the soap-making industry.

It's designed to attach to the next bar of soap so you never waste any soap. Oh. It's fantastic. You're making a soap cairn of progressively smaller little soaps? Can you do that? It's not like a Russian nesting doll. It's like a tongue-and-groove type situation. Oh, I like this.

I want it. And some coffee from our friends at Tonks. Tonks send coffee to my house. My wife is a coffee enthusiast, to say it lightly, and she loves her Tonks coffee. And if you join at the $35 a month level, you get all of that stuff, plus our highball glasses, which are new this year. We did rocks glasses last year. This year, it's highball glasses engraved with the rocket ship. Perfect for a romantic evening at home. I love the rocks glasses. I use them all the time. Now I'm going to pledge to my own show to get these highball glasses.

You're a former food and drink columnist and a cocktail enthusiast. Do you have a favorite use for a highball glass? Yeah, I'll have a highball. Look, donating is easy. It feels great. And I think you think this show is worth listening to and worth supporting. So get up off your butt and go to MaximumFun.org

slash donate. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. Thank you, Bailiff. Jesse, Eileen, and Tyler, you may be seated. So I couldn't help but overhear from my chambers your touching testimony, Jesse, as you talked about your wife needling you into getting a dog, and you were being hesitant because you feared to grow up and you appreciate it because you're a sensitive dude that the responsibility of dog emulates the responsibility

of a child and you knew that that was probably coming next and yet you acquiesced surrender is part of marriage after all there cannot be be perfect compromise on everything. Eventually, one person surrenders to another on certain issues. And you couldn't imagine what it would be like to have a dog. And as soon as you did, you loved it. And I imagine from your testimony, I can I can glean that you felt the same way with regard to your child. Maybe you even knew or had been trained by this experience of getting a dog ambivalently and then loving the dog that you could trust your instincts that however you felt about becoming a father, and there are always complicated feelings surrounding that, you knew you would love this child and I know that you love your children. The same thing happened to me.

In the abstract, I was very much into the idea of eventually having children when I get enough stuff done. But my wife, uh, was not an only child and therefore was not under, uh, the delusion that she is an immortal super person. And she said, we cannot wait forever. This has to happen. Uh, the abstract must become real. And, um, she taught me how, and we did it. And of course I went through the exact same experience as you referred to Eileen is where your friends have no concept of what it's like on the other side. They are unable to comprehend what it's like on the other side of the country, and they reject it out of fear. And then when you're on the other side, you realize this is great.

And of course, I immediately loved my children. And something else happened, too. I stopped loving my dumb cat. What Jesse says is very true. It's actually, now I think back on the story only one couple that i knew who had a dog as a rehearsal child actually ended up kind of foisting the dog off into the corner of their lives while they focused on their child the rest of them the dog became very happily integrated into the life because dogs are herd animals but i will tell you this and i'm not saying when you guys should have kids,

but you are dealing with some mature decisions in your lives now that you've left the world of perpetual adolescence, which is New York City and Brooklyn. And now you are living in a house, you have a car, you have, you are building a life together in Los Angeles, that if you were to end up, if you had a cat and you were to end up then having a child and those two lifespans overlapped, that cat would hate that child because cats are not herd animals.

Cats are animals best suited for the very lonely, the only child. They're suited for the lonely, only child. My cat and I had such a bond when I was an only child. We would just look at each other and we're like,

I understand you and you understand me. We are the best. And this is a great patch of sun. Yeah. Yeah. You understand. Yeah of sun. Yeah. Yeah. You understand. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. You understand. And here is the other thing. Again, I'm not pushing children on you. We're talking about dogs, but further to the concept of not having a concept of what it would be like on the other side of a major life change as this. After we had our first child,

then my wife started saying, you know what we ought to have is a second child. I'm like, what are you talking about, crazy woman? Because as an only child, I found it impossible to imagine that the love I felt for my daughter could somehow be split up and divided among some new organism that was brought into my house.

But because I had trusted her once and it worked out, I trusted her again and it worked out. And obviously I love both of my children in a way that I did not know I was capable of loving before. And that is the consolation of growing old and making these grown-up decisions. Yes, each one of them brings you further to death. Yes, each one of them brings you closer to death and your crumbling demise and dust in the ground. But you learn the cosmos that is within you, the emotional cosmos that is within you is kind of unending. And you find new parts of yourself when you give yourself over to loving things that you didn't know you could love and handling their bodily

excrement. And that's true. Whatever animal you bring into your house, cat, dog, or child. So be aware, Tyler,

that you have no concept of what it would be like. You cannot predict reasonably what it would be like on the other side of this decision any more than your dumb friends in Brooklyn cannot understand what it is like to be in LA. They're within their own hallucinatory realm of self-delusion. They do not understand that life is, can be, and often is led better outside of New York. It simply is. It simply is. It's nicer. It's nicer. Now you know that that's true. You're going to continue to explore things about yourself. So it sounds like I'm going to rule against you doesn't it oh yeah but eileen you and tasha tudor are wrong i think this i first of all do not get a cat okay guys don't do that okay a cat a compromised cat i think is unfair to the cat and unfair to you guys. And we'll be unfair to, uh, whatever creature comes into your house, be it dog or child later that that cat is just going to hate. If you don't think a cat, a cat is as sensitive as an only child.

And if you don't think that cat isn't going to understand that it's part of some weird compromise deal, it's going to know it and it, and it will pay you back in vengeance until it is gone swept away by a coyote tyler eventually you are going to have to come to the understanding that you can put this off for a certain period of time but your wife wants a dog she really really really wants a dog it is it is in her dna to want a dog at this point and she really wants one of these weird stunted corgi dogs

yeah that's not going to change any more than some people's wives want children any more than some some people's husbands want to go to paris or of those things. The heart wants what it wants. And if, if you had convinced me fully Tyler, that you really, really, really wanted a cat the way Eileen convinced me that she really, really,

really wanted a dog, a Corgi dog, ideally with some sort of print or typographical name. No, I would say get, get a cat, get a cat. I am convinced Eileen that, that you really, really,

really, really, really, really want this corgi and that you're going to foist it onto Tyler eventually in your lives. However, I don't think that now is the time. You have only been in Los Angeles for a couple of months. You need to get used to this new place. You need to learn this place and have as much freedom as you can in this place and build a life together in this place that you are happy with and know really what your financial means and your lifestyle that makes you happy will allow before you can entertain bringing in a dog, just like you have stuff to do before you have a child. I think you guys, and I say this to you as an old person who no longer has any freedom of movement whatsoever, enjoy what you have right now before you bring in this perpetual infant and poop machine.

That is a dog that is going to keep you housebound a lot of the time. Take at a minimum eight months to just live in la and get to know this place and get to know yourselves within it etc etc no sooner than well today is we're recording this on 314 pi day 2014. Oh, yeah. So March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November. I would say by December 1st, you can have this conversation again. And I would say at that point, Tyler, you ought to be the greatest guy in the world and get your wife a Christmas present. If you celebrate Christmas. Yes.

And at a minimum, take in a dog for a couple of weeks and see how it goes. But have this conversation again in December. We can check in with you then. But you are not allowed to have a dog or a cat or any other animal for eight months. I would say a year, but I don't think you can wait that long. Your biological clock is ticking.

Eileen. Yes. When it comes to corgis in December, I'm not, I'm not going to bully you into getting her the greatest Christmas present of all time. Tyler, you will probably know in December if that's the right thing or not to do. But in December, I'm not, I'm not going to bully you into getting her the greatest Christmas present of all time. Tyler, you will probably know in December if that's the right thing or not to do.

But in December, I would say you should, uh, you should experiment with fostering some, some shelter dogs, uh, and see if that softens up Tyler a little bit. Okay. Uh, and, and then, and then, and then in the new year, you can make a decision for yourselves. Um, and I would the new year, you can make a decision for yourselves. And I would then endorse an order to get a dog, a responsibly sourced corgi or corgi-type dog. And then you can immediately have a family, and then that dog will feel sad. This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Tyler, how do you feel right now? I feel good. I feel like that's a very fair assessment of the situation, and I'm happy to do it. How about you, Eileen? Are you ready to fast forward your life for nine months and get with that pup? No, actually, I think that's excellent advice. I think I was kind of just grasping for something to just kind of make the move easier. But I think it's really good to kind of pace ourselves and wait to see what our lives look like because we don't know yet. Do you think you might just be, like, lonely? I think I might be lonely. It's a new place.

It's not as easy to move as I thought it would be. You know, Eileen, this could be useful information for you, too, Tyler. Yep. My friend and podcasting colleague, Elizabeth Lame, host of the wonderful podcast Totally Lame and Totally Married, lives in Silver Lake and is a dog rescue enthusiast. Whoa. I'm just saying you might want to visit one of her rescue dogs sometime

or have it come visit you. I will look that up. Thank you. Drop Elizabeth a line. I think she'll get you guys set up. And here's the thing. I'm sorry, I'm still here. But the other thing is, you know, I've never lived in Los Angeles. And I can imagine that it is a disorienting move, particularly if you are not working at an office and you're instead home hunting and pecking on a computer by yourself, trying to make up worlds in your mind.

But one thing about L.A. is, in my experience, people are pretty friendly. Pretty shallow. Pretty shallow. Pretty insincere friendly. Their friendliness may ultimately be a trick. Yeah. But you know what? That's really, as you get older in your life and you realize I'm an adult now and I want

to spend time with the people I really care about, like Tyler and maybe this dog or maybe my best friend from home or whatever. You realize you don't need a lot of real friends in all their drama anymore. Having a nice group of fake friends that you can go to the movies with, like in LA, it's kind of perfect. It's true. Hey, guess what, guys? Wait a minute. Before you go, Eileen and Tyler, I'm doing a show at Largo. He is.

We should go. You're not allowed to go out, Eileen? No, we should go. What are the dates? What's the date? I thought you said to Tyler, he is doing a show. You should go, Tyler. I'm going to be busy babysitting my phantom dog.

Just drawing pictures of corgis I am doing a show at Largo on May 29th this is my new one man comedy show called I Stole Your Dad or John Hodgman performs as famous American humorist John Hodgman in John Hodgman Tonight

and I would like you both to be my guests at the show. And then you will make some friends there. Thank you. So I'll put tickets aside for you there. And for the rest of you people who didn't have the smarts to have a fight about a dog, you should know the tickets are available at johnhodgman.com

slash tour for my show at Largo on May 29th. And there are a bunch of other shows up there as well all over the country, including Santa Fe, New Mexico,

and Alexandria, Virginia, and Wits, speaking of John Moe, on April 25th. So plug, plug, plug. please come and see my show. See me in that thing. I did that time. Um, but you guys, uh, you can make some friends at Largo and everyone will be your friend.

And then you won't have to, you won't even have to get a, uh, a goldfish. You'll have a great time. Thank you. Cool. You're welcome. Thank you. Eileen Tyler. Thank you so much for joining us on the judge.

John Hodgman podcast. Thanks. Thanks. Now go away. Okay. Bye. See ya. Thank you. call in and they have these disputes, but then there are all these other people who form a community and they're following up on these people. So we have people who are going to visit the fresh banana man in Kennebunkport and buy bananas from him. We have a young woman who's been looking up Fabergé ties, a young man whose brother talked his mother out of buying him a Fabergé tie. And we all come to know, and of course, the Bat Brothers are out there in the world spreading their bat wisdom. We all come to know some of these litigants as friends and people in our lives. And in fact, I'm thinking back to the episode Criminal Intent, where the one guy wanted to live in a yurt and his girlfriend was not sure about that. I'm going to go stay in a yurt, Jesse, because of this guy. I'm going to check it out. I'm going to see what yurt living is all

about. It's one of the things I think that makes this show special among all the very special shows at MaxFun. And I hope that as part of the community, you enjoy it too. And you understand that we need your support. Yeah, that's something I want to mention. There are so many shows at MaxFun. You may even listen to more than one. When we ask for your donation, you get to choose what's your favorite MaxFun show and tell us what MaxFun shows you listen to. And that's how our podcasters get paid, including me and Judge Hodgman. relationship between you and your favorite entertainers. This isn't, you know, this isn't Warner Brothers Records. This is a, this is independent artists making work that I think deserves your support, whether it's five bucks a month or 200 bucks a month. You know, and I think that you're listening to this because you think that too. So it's easy. Maximumfund.org slash donate. We're going to try and get 1500 people to either increase their donation, in which case, by the way, you get whatever prizes are at the new level, or start a new donation during this pledge drive. I think the goal is very much within our grasp.

If you, who are listening right now, go to maximumfund.org slash donate. So we talked about all the great things you can get. If you give $35 a month, you get the highball glasses, $20 a month. You get the Max Fund Morning Essentials Kit, $10 a month. You get that amazing calendar of all the Maximum Fund hosts depicted as cats by the great Megan Lynn Cott. Even $5 a month, you get all this fantastic bonus content. But what if you have, what if you really want to go all the way, Jesse? Is there an opportunity to go all the way? There are two great opportunities to go all the way. And all of these are cumulative, by the way.

$100 a month, you're in the inner circle. And this is something that is really cool. We have a few dozen people in this group. And these folks, every month, get a piece of culture hand-selected by one of our MaximumFun.org hosts. So whether it's a CD or a movie or a book, it's something that one of our hosts loves more than anything else and wants to share with you. And you'll get a little note from that host about why that host really cares about that particular thing. It's a really neat operation that we're doing. I am really excited and proud about it.

I chose a book called The Big Con, which is one of my favorite books. It's a kind of linguistic history of con men written in the 1940s, I think, or 50s. of con men written in the 1940s, I think, or 50s. And it is one of the funniest, most amazing historical books you could ever read. All right. That's $100 a month, Jesse. Is that as far as it can go? Absolutely not.

At $200 a month, you get free registration at the Atlantic Ocean Comedy and Music Festival, aka boatparty.biz. You get to party your way to the Bahamas with me and an amazing lineup of comedians and musicians. It is the most fun you will ever have in your entire life, I swear. I have to say, that cruise last September was bonkers, amazepheres fun. And you're saying if you give $200 a month, then you will register, you're automatically registered on the cruise if you wish to go. Plus you get everything else at every other level of donation. Do I understand that correctly? It's going to be a bonanza at your home. The UPS guy is going to be like asking questions. He's probably going to report you to the CIA or something

because you're getting too many suspicious packages. And his suspicion is that they're too suspiciously cool. Look, I know it sounds like we're asking you for money, because that's exactly what's happening. And I know that it's easy to tune that out. But before you do, just take a moment to think about why you're listening, how much you enjoy it, and know that any money that you choose to give goes directly not only to Maximum Fun, but to the show that you love the most. In other words, the money that you donate actually does good. It helps us in a very direct way, and it's not wasted, and we need it.

So I hope you'll give it some thought, and if you can donate, do donate by going to MaximumFun.org slash donate. Don't don't donate, do donate. That's going to be our slogan for this year. Don't don't don't don't don't donate, do donate at MaximumFun.org slash donate. Judge Hodgman, what are you doing? I'm just visiting with my pet articulated ferret skeleton from my friends at SkullsUnlimited.com. Why? I don't think that you can call that a pet. It's not alive. It's not even taxidermied. It doesn't have a dermis.

If this mounted skeleton is not alive, then why do I have to clean its litter box so often? It's because you go to the bathroom in its litter box. Oh, in my sleep. Oh, that explains it. Let's get away from this topic and let's clear the docket, huh? Oh, that sounds fine. Here's something from Andrew. My fiancee Lindsay and I go grocery shopping once a week, usually on the way home from the gym. While we're at the store, I'll grab a No children. No children for this couple. Go on, young people. I always pay for the beverage, and I've never received a complaint from store management. Lindsay thinks this activity is, quote, trashy, unquote, and just plain morally wrong. She says because I haven't paid for the goods before consuming them, it's stealing.

She also says that I'm putting the store workers on edge because they have to make sure I settle up before leaving the store. I seek the ability to consume a beverage while shopping at the grocery store without having to justify my actions. Lindsay seeks an injunction against what she calls my problem drinking. Well, this flashes me right back to my childhood when we were in the Star Market in Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts. Massachusetts. And we saw a woman that we, I grew up as an only child with my two parents and our cat Pokey in a like 5,000 room house in Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts, part of Brookline for much of my childhood, an enormous house. There was no reason for us to have it. And indeed, in order to

afford it, we had to rent out large swaths of it to students and boarders of different kinds. And there was this young professional woman who was living in a wing of our house. And let's say her name was Diane. And we're walking through the supermarket and there's Diane, which is weird enough out of context. And she's also eaten a yogurt with a plastic spoon. I was shocked, shocked. You can't do that. You're stealing yogurt with each bite.

She hadn't paid for it yet. And I still think there's something weird about that. But I have never forgotten it to this day. It is ingrained on my mind. You might think, therefore, Lindsay, that I'm going to rule in your favor about Andrew's transgressive behavior in the supermarket. But in fact, once I realized that she's a grownup and she's going to eat this food, she's going to buy this food and eat it when she wants, even before it is technically paid for, I found that to be profoundly liberating.

And so every now and then, I would grab a soda and drink it and pay for it on the way out of the shop. Because that's what some people do, and it's okay. Now, it is not morally wrong, but I would say eating yogurt as you walk around the supermarket is weirdly trashy in some way. So don't do that. But I think having a water or a bottle of milk or some pre-made protein shake or whatever it is, and then paying for it on the way out is at this point, absolutely acceptable. And the only person who's being put on edge as Lindsay and Lindsay, I think you just ought to, uh, you, you ought to, uh, enjoy the transgression and help yourself to, uh, to a flavored water yourself. Do you disagree with me, Jesse?

It makes me uncomfortable, John. I'm not going to lie to you. I know. This is one of those areas where I feel a little bit of discomfort is okay. Here's something from Jackson. I'm 17 and in my junior year of high school, and I've seen my dad cry twice in my life. The first was when his dad died. The other was this past summer when my brother told us he wasn't coming home for Thanksgiving. That happened while we were watching Louie, and my dad just broke down. It unsettled me greatly. My mom is also an emotional shut-in in many ways, as is my extended family for the most part. I'll admit that I'm also highly neurotic, and I'm beginning to

worry that because I've never lived with people who are open or healthy with their emotions, that whole part of my life is going to be forever screwed up. If my parents are both unhappy people, how am I supposed to know what being happy is like beyond watching strangers and movies? I'd like a formal assessment on whether or not unhappy people should be allowed to raise kids. All of my family members have hobbies which give them pleasure. Hunting, sewing, reading, etc. But is that really enough to make a life meaningful? And more importantly, does that allow them to be the example for others like me?

This isn't a therapy podcast. This is a justice podcast. You're not bringing a case against anyone? Get out of my courtroom. Good luck with your feelings. No, I'm sorry. That was mean. True, but mean. Uh, Jackson, um, I think you will only grow more neurotic if you worry, uh, that you are not happy, uh, or that you are, or that the illusion that you might have of happiness might be programmed into you because

your parents were not demonstrative enough with their feelings. Do I think that you would benefit from having a little bit of talk therapy in your community or at your school? I think you wouldn't be writing me if you didn't agree with me on some level, maybe conscious, maybe unconscious. But happiness is really, once you start worrying about whether or not you are happy, it's very easy to miss when you are happy. Happiness is a gut feeling of contentment that is very easy to miss when it is happening. And it is very easy to convince yourself that something makes you happy when it doesn't. Getting in tune. And now I feel like I'm restarting The Source Family. By the way, great documentary, The Source Family.

Look it up online. I'm not going to explain what it is right now. But great documentaries, The Source Family, Wikipedia. Listen to the interview of the directors on Bullseye. Oh, yeah. Perfect example. But let me be your father Yod for a moment here and tell you what you need to do is get a little bit of talk therapy to work through your concern about

the trauma of seeing your mom and dad emote so explosively or dramatically and rarely, your relationship to your own happiness. And then you might want to take some time to quietly assess what truly makes you happy in life and what doesn't. And attune yourself to those moments when you are truly content. And it may be when you're hunting or sewing or reading, or it may be when you're hunting or sewing or reading, or maybe when you're doing something

else. And then continue to do that as much as possible and try not to worry about whether or not you're happy, if possible. And remember, Jackson, most important of all, you are in no way unique. Lots and lots of people don't see their dad cry a whole lot. And their moms, too. And I'll tell you, as disturbing or provocative as it may be, I think it might be preferable than having a dad who cries two or three times a day. And next time you write me, you better be in a fight with somebody. Our thanks this week to Paul Baker and Liam Pittman, who

named our case. Thanks, guys. Our producer is Julia Smith. Mark McConville edits the program. Thank you, Mark. Thanks, Mark. Thanks, Julia. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho and submit it.

And hashtag your tweets, JJ Ho, so we can follow them in your Tumblr posts. I like seeing what people have to say about the show, people making fan art and stuff like that. That stuff's great. It's a lot of fun. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Maximumfun.org slash donate. Do it. Don't don't donate. Do it. Don't don't donate.

Do donate. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of Maximumfund.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at Maximumfund.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com. You can find John Hodgman online at AreasOfMyExpertise.com.

If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at forum.maximumfun.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned.

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