Judge John Hodgman - Bleached and Mounted Bones of Contention

Episode Date: January 23, 2013

Nick and Sara are a married couple who disagree on interior design -- namely, should Nick be allowed to display a collection of bones and taxidermied animals within their home?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, bleached and mounted bones of contention. Nick brings the case against his wife Sarah. He has an interest in the macabre and is interested in using taxidermied animals and skeletons to decorate their home. Sarah is not a fan of this aesthetic. Should Nick be allowed his decorating choices? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. I can't let it go Can't just let it go With my arms My heart

My life Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, dudes. What's going on? Sorry. Are we doing this? Jesse, swear him dudes. What's going on? Sorry. Are we doing this? Jesse, swear him in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his home is decorated not only with the skeleton of a ferret, but also with the bones of his vanquished enemies? I do. I do too. Very well. Judge Hodgman. Thank you, Nick Serra. You may be seated. For an immediate summary judgment, can either of you name the incredibly groovy track that I was listening to instead of paying attention to what was going on in this courtroom. I'll give you a hint. It is a song that is exactly 24 hours long.

I have no idea. Me neither, unfortunately. And the excerpt that you heard is from the first hour. Does that, that is the song seven skies, H three by the Flaming Lips. It was released on Halloween of 2011 after the success of a six hour long song that they had released earlier that fall what characterizes this song is not only that it was 24 hours long but you uh it was for sale only uh i believe as a thumb drive that had been inserted into a human skull oh my the entire right the entire package of which you could buy for $5,000. I don't know if they,

I don't know. You can now download it on the internet for $0 and a lot of hard drive space, but you could buy it for $5,000 in an actual human skull. That was sourced from my first and only stop for shopping for skulls and bones, skullslimited in Oklahoma City, which is Oklahoma City is where Wayne Coyne lives. And he and Skulls Unlimited did up this deal together, is my understanding, at least, from the Internet. to share that song with you and give you a chance to resolve this in an immediate 24-hour long summary judgment. You both failed. So let's get to the heart of the matter. Nick, you are a collector.

An aspiring collector. It should be made clear. I do not have a collection of any of this stuff just yet. No. Anyone who owns one thing is an aspiring collector. A collection of trash and pumpkins and cats begins with one, one of each of those things. But you, but you, you, you gravitate toward what,

what you describe as the macabre, which is to say you like skulls and dead things. I do. I do indeed. And it's also, it's, it's, it's the macabre, which is to say you like skulls and dead things. I do. I do indeed. And, uh, it's also, it's, it's, it's the macabre. It's also just like a matter of, of, of simple aesthetics. I like the way they look. So what is your collection? What do you have in your collection right now? I have nothing. This is that's the thing. Is this a lot of nothing at all?

No, this, this aspiration hinges on, on Sarah's, you know, acceptance of the whole idea. Oh, I thought you had a small collection of animal skulls and taxidermy. You have nothing at all? Nothing at all as of yet. This is an aspirational affectation? That's the thing. I do not consider this an affectation so much as a genuine interest, but it's – being that I'm married and being that I live with someone whose aesthetics I have to consider, I have to make sure that this is doable before I begin it.

How long – excuse me, Sarah. How long have you been married, sir? A year and a half. A year and a half. All right. And what is it that you would like to start collecting? Just a quick thumbnail of what you want to collect. It would begin with animal skeletons and taxidermy.

And then I've also expressed an interest, a definite specific interest in getting a human skull somehow. Okay. And Sarah, you are opposed to what part of this plan? All of it? Some of it? All of it. Just really. It should be noted that in our front window, we live in an apartment complex,

and Nick currently insists on keeping a plastic Halloween skull that he bought on the windowsill for the neighbors to see. Since this case hinges on esoteric collections, it seems only right that we should bring in perhaps one of the most accomplished esoteric collectionists of all time. Mr. John Roderick of the long winters who we have as an expert witness on the line. Hello,

John. Hello judge. Are you, are you Hello judge. Are you, are you hearing me? Are you hearing me properly through, through in your room of globes and, uh, and magazines?

I am. I am using some vintage headphones from my collection of vintage headphones. Now, John, you just to establish your bona, bona fides, you are not only, uh, uh, a rock star star, a singer-songwriter, a long winter, also a podcaster with the On the Line, John Roderick On the Line podcast, excuse me. But you are also a collector.

Just describe some of the collections that you have in your home in Seattle. The aforementioned Globes. I have a great number of Globes. Globes are fine. Well, I have a collection of knives and poisons from around the world. I have a collection of antique usable firearms. I have a collection of Japanese-made guitars. I have a collection of Stetson hats. The list goes on.

You have candelabras. Candelabras, right. Uh, but brass candlesticks, uh, Ray-Ban sunglasses, but Varnays,

I have a collection of Varnays. Yeah. And, uh, and, uh, you have a, you have a,

uh, a, uh, an umbrella stand full of swords. Yes. Right. Correct. So does my father.

But one thing I do not have is any taxidermied or dead things. It may be that John Roddick is your father, sir. It's actually what we're here to discuss today, apparently. But you have no taxidermy. You have no dead things. You have no taxidermy. You have no dead things. No, I do have a pair of snowshoes that are made out of animal gut. But it doesn't read as taxidermy. It reads as snowshoes.

And so when you hear a young man like this speak of an aspirational collection of weird objet, speak of an aspirational collection of weird objet does this fill your heart with gladness or does it fill your heart with suspicion that this guy is just trying to make himself interesting in some way well it's a good question i am i am profoundly interested that he ran it by his new wife first like Before just introducing a squirrel skull or something into the house, they talked about it first. I think that's very interesting. It does suggest that he's not

a psychopath. Yeah, because I was going to say there is another person I can think of off the top of my head who collected animal skeletons as an aspirational hobby and that is Jeffrey Dahmer. But he was aspiring to be a collector of a different kind.

Yeah. He wanted a human skull in his house, too. And he got what he wanted. It's not as though Nick is coming home like saying, look at this, honey. I happened to find a kitten skull. Doesn't that look good there?

Maybe we should get more of these. Right. But he dreamt this all up in advance and is coming to her with the whole project. Like, what do you think about this? What if I fill the house with dead animals and then a human skull? Maybe that makes him the most insidious villain. Well, and this is also – I've reached a point in my life where after being just like sort of very itinerant and kind of being all over the place, like I'm very – this is the first point in my life where I'm very domestic. I'm settled in.

This is what I'm doing now moving forward. So something that's been on the back burner for quite some time, now I have the opportunity to make a reality. Yeah, because before you were itinerant, you were moving around from town to town. You had no place to store your human skulls. You had to leave them behind. Now you have a chance. Sarah, let me ask you. me ask you uh this seems maybe less about uh your aesthetic desire not to have like rodent skulls in your house and maybe more about realizing the kind of monster you married a little too late

i feel like that's a case for another day but with this i think it's important to understand that um i i grew up in a more rural setting than Nick. I've had cats my entire life up until I moved in with Nick, actually bringing in dead animals into my house. So I've already lived in a house with dead animals. Turning the corner, you never know what you're going to find. And this is something that's terrorized me my entire life. Animals that may or may not be dead just in your path as you walk to the kitchen for coffee in the morning. Well, yes, but in Nick's defense, he is not talking

about bringing in some mutilated voles and leaving them. Well, that's the thing. I was discussing this with my parents last night. The mutilated ones aren't scary because you know for sure they're dead. As opposed to a bleached and mounted articulated animal skeleton? You think that might not be dead? I think that it would be reminiscent. It's a slippery slope is what it is. And then all of a sudden there's the taxidermy. And then I come home one night and there is a skull of some poor person just in my house

for decoration. Nick, reminding you that you are under internet oath. Indeed. Will you just answer this question just so that we can move forward? Are you a devious psychopath killer? No. Only a psychopath would be able to pass that test. Do you have any intention of killing a rat and

leaving it on your wife's pillow? Not as of yet, no. So you need to, because there is an issue here that is greater than the aesthetics of what I consider to be often beautifully articulated animal skeletons. As Jesse mentioned, I have an articulated ferret skeleton from Skulls Unlimited itself that is a prized possession in my home. And I certainly have known people who have collected taxidermy and they've been drawn to it. And while it's not my thing, it's clearly an expression of who they are in some way.

But now, Nick, what is your age? 31. 31. And you are just now coming to this desire for skulls and dead things in your life. And I need to evaluate whether or not this is a true calling or whether you should be allowed to start a collection like this. Because at this point, it seems kind of arbitrary and weird, like you just want to make yourself interesting and freak your wife out. I included in the evidence packet, pictures of both my sisters and my parents' house, which both contain numerous animal skulls. And that's an illustration of the fact that going

back as far as I can remember, ever since I was little, every vacation that I ever took with my parents, anytime we were by the shore, anytime we were in the woods, one of our main activities, my dad and I would be just wandering around and trying to find skulls and bones, which we would then bleach and store somewhere. This is something that he also did with my sister. It's something that he now does with my nephew. So it's been a presence in the life of my family. And we're all city people, but it's been a presence in the life of my family. And we're all city people, but it's been a presence in the life of my family as long as I can remember. And you, I presume, grew up in San Francisco in the black house owned by Anton LaVey?

No, just Center City, Philadelphia. Center City, Philadelphia. So you found, sure, you found a lot of skulls around there. John Roderick, you did not receive this evidence. So for you and the internet podcast listening audience, I will describe these photos. I guess this is from your parents' home? My parents, and then there's some from my sisters as well. So there seems to be a skull on a windowsill here next to a little Hummel figurine of a perky dog. Do you know what that is?

That's my sister's house. And I think that might be I think that might be a, is it a rabbit skull? It's hard for me to tell from the scale. Yeah. I don't have it in front of me. I'm uncertain. And then there's a skull here on a table, like on

a wooden chopping block or like a wooden table of some kind. It looks like it's probably a cow skull. Yeah, that's either a cow or a deer. Cow or a deer skull. Certainly it was a a behorned animal. Right. So I didn't appreciate it. And then there's a curio cabinet, which I think is fantastic. That's my dad's. That's your dad's. So the fact that there is a family continuity element to this actually makes this court think very differently about your aspiration. To get a sense, though, of exactly how serious you are, can you name the animals from which these skulls came that are in this cabinet?

I don't have the image in front of me. I know that there's definitely a tortoise skull. Correct. Which was not an actual find. I think that was purchased. I think, is there a pelican skull in there? Like something with a long beak? Yeah, but that's too long for a pelican. Yeah, that could be. Yeah. And I can't offhand, I can't recall what else is in there. It's two out of three full skulls or half skulls, I should say.

And then there's one intensely creepy betoothed jawbone. But the fact that you got tortoise skull, that's the one that I think is the prize of the collection, wouldn't you agree? Yeah, it's pretty nifty. Yeah, because probably, you know, what's sad is that tortoise was probably 200 years old when your father killed it with his own hands. With his bare hands. Yeah, exactly. It's a shame. And so, Sarah, you've seen these photographs and you've been to his house.

Does this stuff – let me try to separate the issues here. Because on the one hand, there's the issue of animal skeletons. Then there's the issue of taxidermy. And then there's the issue of human skull. Right. skeletons. Then there's the issue of taxidermy, and then there's the issue of human skull. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being utter, skeeved-out, terrible, never-in-my-houseness, and 1 being

get me that skull. That is dark. Let's separate them out. So, collection of animal skeletons and skulls. One to ten. Four. Taxidermy. Seven.

Seven to eight. Rogue taxidermy. Nine. Do you know what I'm talking about when I talk about rogue taxidermy? That's that famous Raymond Carver story. I should know that, but I don't. Rogue taxidermy is when a taxidermist combines two different animals to make one new animal.

That's a nine. That's for sure a nine. I think that even freaked me out. Are you familiar with this, John Roderick? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Do you have any rogue taxidermy? No, but I grew up in Alaska, so I have seen many, many terrible, terrible things in the taxidermy family.

What was the worst thing that you ever saw? Oh, boy. It doesn't have to be like a rogue chimerical taxidermal, like a bear that's had its arms removed and replaced with stuffed pythons. It could just be bad taxidermy. No, I mean, the worst thing I've ever seen is a very old taxidermied baby bear oh yeah which was taxidermied a long time ago inexpertly and then was flea bitten and eaten by like just eaten by vermin until this baby bear became like, you could see the underlying armature of the taxidermy, uh,

material. And it was just, it was, it's, it was just a terrible thing. I guess I can't get it out of my head. You can't unsee a stuffed baby bear. There's nothing more disgusting than stuffed bears.

a stuffed baby bear. There's nothing more disgusting than stuffed bears. I'll tell you, judge Hodgman, that two max fun listeners, guy and Mary Beth were kind slash cruel enough to send max fun world headquarters. When we moved in here a few months ago, um,

two taxidermied, I guess I would say nightmare gerbils like some kind of thing that burrows in a hole but they're with the teeth out and weirdly torqued like a swimsuit model i think those are pronounced gerbils um because i thought you were talking about a stuffed Nazi war criminal. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is... That's a collection for John Roderick, stuffed Nazi war criminals, right, John? Yeah, no, I actually do have a small collection of those.

I couldn't afford any of the big names, but I have a couple of Polish guards. I would say that even a normal beast inexpertly mounted can become quite terrifying. And I say this as someone with taxidermied creatures in my own home. All right. So we have animal skulls on the skeeve meter, four. Taxidermy, seven. Rogue taxidermy, surprisingly not ten, but nine. And human skull.

I have to leave room for the human skull, which is very obviously a ten. You have a flair for the dramatic, madam. Human skull. And what is your, what, I mean, before we talk about Nick's sick desire for a human skull, what is your total, what is your totally reasonable objection? I mean, I think it, I mean, I don't even know if it's worth, obviously I have an ethical concern here. Please speak to these things. Don't, don't presume that this court is not monstrous. not monstrous. Well, I like to think of it in context. My mother has always talked about how she doesn't want to be buried, just donate her body to science. And I can't really come to terms with the fact that one day, hopefully a very long time from now, my wonderful loving mother's skull will be on some dude's desk, you know, for for decoration.

So I you know, if I wouldn't want it for my own mother, I can't I can't see how it would be ethical for someone else's loved one to have their remains used as decoration. What provisions would you take, sir, if I rule in your favor, Nick, to be sure that the skull that you obtain is not the skull of your mother-in-law. I haven't, I have to admit that I haven't been able to figure that out 100% just yet because they're the reputable websites that do establish the provenance and that, you know, they do come from cadavers and from, from those are those you have to prove a medical affiliation to, to buy any any human remains from. So I would need to... You're talking about a black market skull is what you're going to end up with.

We're talking about reputable human skull dealers. Let's just... I think about that. Well, wait a minute. There are such things. Skulls Unlimited is a reputable... In fact, since the issue is how do you provenance a human skull so you make sure you don't get one of those blood diamond skulls you hear about, maybe it's time for another expert witness.

Let's see if we can get Jay from Skulls Unlimited on the phone. Thank you for calling Skulls Unlimited International, the world's leading supplier of osteological specimens. If you know your party's three-digit extension, the world's leading supplier of osteological specimens. If you know your party's three-digit extension, dial it now or listen to the following options. If you wish to place an order, press 2 now. Hello, this is Jay. Oh, hi, Jay. This is Judge John Hodgman calling. How are you? I'm wonderful, sir. How are you? Good, thank you. You may not recall, but I presume your son, Jay Jr., helped me with an articulated ferret skeleton in the spring of 2011, and it is a beautiful piece of work, may I say.

Wonderful. I'm glad you're happy. Well, you're on the line right now on an internet podcast with me, my bailiff, Jesse Thorne. Hello. Hello. Thorn. Hello. My expert witness, the esteemed songwriter and collector John Roderick, and then the two disputants in the case that we're hearing

right now, Nick and Sarah. They're a married couple, and Nick would like to start collecting animal skulls and skeletons and also at some point he would like to add to his collection a human skull. That's always a good thing. That's always a good thing.

That's always a good thing. Well, I guess we've settled it then. Jay from Skulls Unlimited has weighed in. It is 100% of the time good to have a human skull. I understand correctly your story, you worked in auto body repair and then segued into the collecting and selling of skeletal, osteological specimens, as you say. Is that correct? Yes. I started collecting bones when I was a child, when I found a dog skull in the woods, but I graduated high school as an auto body technician and slowly made the change over when I couldn't make a living as an auto body technician, I made the change over when I couldn't make a living as a

auto body technician. I made the change into selling skulls. Now, when you started professionally selling skulls, were you 31 years old and married about a year and a half? Because that's Nick's situation. I was 21 years old and married for about four years. Oh, wow. Fantastic.

been married for about four years. Oh, wow. Fantastic. So, what sort of skulls did you start out dealing in? Mainly things like beavers, coyotes, raccoons, bobcats, skunks, just the normal fur bearers, the things you find dead on the road.

I presume those were easiest to find and provenance. Exactly. A human skull, though, is a little bit different. And this is one of the issues. Sarah has said that she will not allow a human skull in her home at any time because she cannot imagine what it would be like to have basically someone's mother on your desk.

And she's concerned that someone is going to steal her own mother's skull and put it into a curio cabinet. I think she may be concerned that it's her husband who's going to do it own mother's skull and put it into a curio, put it into a curio cabinet. I think she may be concerned that it's her husband who's going to do it. That's always possible. Based on your website, you, you, you deal in two different kinds of human, we'll just say skulls for now, because I know you also do skeletons. Yes.

Research grade skulls and then other. Can you describe what the difference is, please? Yeah, other is just skulls that we obtained through legal sources. For instance, India, Asia, China, they all used to export skulls. They all stopped. So now what we deal in is recycled material. It's like you may call us and you have one from medical school that you wish to sell us. That's all that type of material falls into the other. Now we also have a service where we prepare from cadavers, from human body donor programs where you may die, donate your body to science

and your head will come to us to be cleaned. I see. So why was India and China selling human skulls? As just a way for just another commodity. And who was buying for the most part? What period of time are we talking about for these non-research grade skulls? These sort of, I guess, heirloom skull. Yes, India stopped the exportation in 1986. China stopped the exportation in 2008. And was the market primarily medical research and medical schools?

It is, yes. Right. No, it's by far, it's mainly the medical, the scientific community. Okay. And so currently the only way to obtain a human skull for research purposes would be if someone had willed their body to medical experimentation or scientific research. Is that correct? For lack of better terms, yes. Yes. It's when people die, they donate their bodies to science. Their bodies come in and from there they're, depending on the program, they're dismembered, and body parts go to different programs throughout the country.

And so you actually prepare new contemporary skulls and skeletons for sale to research institutions? We do, yes, hundreds upon hundreds. Well, you didn't have to add that. I see so much of it that you just get numb to it because they come to us as a frozen cadaver. I see. But you also have

an incredibly wide array of skeletons from animals, non-human animals. From animals, yes. Yes, exactly. And what is the prize of your non-human collection? Well, we have developed the Museum of Osteology here in Oklahoma City. It's a museum that has over 350 skeletons on display. Anything from our largest is a 40-foot humpback whale down to hummingbirds.

Anything you can imagine we have on display here. Please go ahead. I'm sorry. No, no. That is my private collection that is now a non-profit. So when you said what's my specimen, so yes, that would be the case. And may I presume you found that humpback whale on the side of the road that had been hit by a car? humpback whale on the side of the road that had been hit by a car? We found that on the side of the beach. So can you explain for Sarah, who at this point, I asked her to rate her comfort level with a collection of osteological specimens, with 10 being most grossed out and not okay with her,

and one being, I want it right away. And she said a collection of animal skeletons would be at about four. Can you explain to her what the charm and pleasure that you take in a collection of animal skeletons is? Well, me personally, as a collector, when I got a new specimen for the collection, it wasn't just another specimen on the shelf. It was an opportunity to learn about the species itself. So I would get a new beaver and I would learn everything I could about beavers. I got a skunk, I'd learn about skunks.

And needless to say, I'm full of a lot of worthless information. And do you have, sorry, go ahead, please. No, it was more than just another specimen. It was definitely about the science behind it. With regard to, do you have human skulls in your personal collection? Oh, of course, yes. Do you have concerns about non-research professionals collecting human skulls? Dependent on the source of those human skulls?

No, I don't. Now, if somebody's going around digging up grandma, then of course I have a problem with that. Right. And I had read that you had a deal with the local band Flaming Lips to produce a skull to go along with a long track that they had recorded. Is that true, or was Wayne Coyne just talking at the mouth? Nope, that is true.

Wayne purchased a good many skulls from us for that program. And let me ask you this. Nick is 31 years old. He and Sarah are a young married couple. They're not uh crazy art rock stars with all the money in the world they just told us that they live in a house full of wooden antiques how much does a and now how much does a human skull cost dependent on the quality they could go for as little as $600 to $800, but an average standard price is closer to the $2,000 mark.

And you will only sell to – Nick, what is your job? Right now I work at a restaurant. So that's not medical research? You would not qualify for the medical research quality specimens, the ones that come from donors. Right. So you would have to buy an heirloom skull that had been grandfathered in. Exactly. Yeah.

And so an average heirloom skull will cost Nick, out of his tips at the restaurant, about... Depending, again, on the quality for a really nice one, about $1,600. $1,600. Okay. And those are hard to find. Those don't come around very often.

No, well, I mean, they're not making them anymore. No. We hope. At least not in the same way. And you also, just as a point of issue, I presume you would take efforts to make sure that these are not remains of any Native Americans, because I believe there's some federal restrictions on that as well, yes? Yes, there is the Native American Repatriation Act, and we don't take part of any of that. I can't remember the last time we were even offered a Native American skull, but no, those we don't even touch.

No, but I can imagine a time several generations ago in a darker period where collecting Native American remains might have been a weird kind of trophy sort of thing. Well, there's a lot of times back in the day, in the 50s, let's just say, when people would find the Native remains, they would just be collected and taken into the local classroom. Oh, I see. They were just another form of a human skull to put in the classroom. another form of a human skull to put in the classroom. So my final question, if I were to rule in Nick's favor and allow him to proceed with his collection, obviously a human skull is kind of a separate issue, and it can only be sourced from a responsible dealer like yourself.

But in terms of collecting animal skulls, you began by collecting what you found in nature. What would be your recommendation to a young collector just starting out like Nick? Should he go and search nature or should he just go to your website and get everything he wants in one stop? Well, both. From a financial standpoint, I would recommend he just come to our shop and buy what he needs. But from an entertainment standpoint, it's always fun to go and find and collect your own material. And if you were going to go to your shop, do you have like a starter kit for collectors? Well, we do have some like some five-piece sets that are damaged and they're like reduced at $99 and things.

So, yes, we do have bags of skulls as we call them. All right. Skull crab bags. I love, as we call them. All right. So do me a favor. Ah, skull crab bags. I love it. That's fantastic. Bag of puppy skulls is even better, though. As the dog sits on my lap. I'm sorry?

I said as the dog rests peacefully on my lap. I like that that's how that comes up. Yes, exactly. And may he continue to rest in peace. Jay, would you do me a favor and take one of those skull grab bags, those $99 bags, and set one aside for me? Because if I rule in

Nick's favor, I'm going to want to purchase it and send it to him as a gift. I will be happy to. Thank you very much for your time. John Roderick, do you have any questions for Jay? I'm just wondering how long it's going to be before I order an heirloom skull. Well, we have them on our website currently, so we don't have that many in the heirloom sense, but we do have a handful. And that's skullsunlimited.com, is that correct?

Yes, skullsunlimited.com, is that correct? Yes, skullsunlimited.com. And I can tell you, you guys really saved me because when I wanted a ferret skeleton, I first turned to Twitter and everyone tried to make it into a terrible pun and was no help at all. But you guys came through and got me that ferret skeleton and it is one of my prized things. Wonderful, I'm so glad to hear it is one of my prized things. Wonderful. I'm so glad to hear it. I'm glad we pleased you. Thank you very much, Jan. I'll let you get on. I know you're in central time, so I'll let you get on with your evening. Thank you very much.

Wonderful. Thank you for calling, guys. You take care. Nice to talk to you. Bye-bye. I think we're all speechless. I think it's also this concept of an heirloom skull. I think it's important to note, Judge, here that I recently applied to graduate school to study political science and to study, you know, kind of specifically post-colonialism. So it's almost extra horrifying to have a skull in my home from just somewhere.

Someone in India, somebody in India who just died on a train it's still someone's grandma I think that might embarrass me in front of my hopefully potential friends oh yeah that skull's just from India it's fine anyway so alright now it now comes down to you Nick

I think Sarah I think we have all the facts probably more than we needed I think Sarah, I think we have all the facts probably more than we needed. I think Sarah has made her position numerically clear on all three of your proposed collections entwined, but separate collections. Right. And it now falls to you to make the best case possible for each.

And I urge you to keep this as succinct and persuasive as possible. First, Sarah, my darling wife, I would like to keep a collection of animal bones because go. Well, because I certainly find them aesthetically appealing. That's a huge part of it. There is the sort of like sentimental thing because of my family. And like, you know, as silly as that might sound, there's definitely like an association with my dad about this stuff. And then, um, you know, just the idea, the, the sort of like physiological component, it's very interesting to me. Um, I don't know a lot

about that, but I'm, but I'm very interested in it. And then there's like sort of a silly philosophical component to the idea of, uh, you know, an inanimate object that once contained life, I think is like sort of a springboard for some some serious thought. And I think that having something around the house that, you know, provides all of that in a singular object is pretty, it's pretty neat. You came in just under the wire. But I do appreciate that you that you that you presented your case clearly under fear of death and knowing time time waits for no man uh all right um by the way you should have just left that whole physiological argument out that's obviously bull feces the philosophical argument

was the more the more compelling one but let's move on an adjunct explanation quickly sarah my darling uh if the if the judge rules in my favor i would like to keep up to but not more than x skulls of x number of animals in the home what is the number x oh man that's tough um is this binding like indefinitely or or, you know, just a ballpark? Just tell me what X is, sir. Under 50, ultimately. We live in a one bedroom apartment. If we're talking about, well, we're not going to hopefully live in a one bedroom apartment forever. And if we're talking about moving forward, then I would think that, you know, and of course I'm sure that's the pitfall

of every collector is that you try and put a cap on it and that'll never happen. But yeah. A lot of skulls are very small, like a vulva or a gerbil. Just like a gerbil. All right. I'll just write down 50.

Part two, knowing that time is limited for all of us on this earth, Sarah, my darling, I would like to keep some taxidermied animals, specifically a taxidermied X, Y, and Z up to a certain number, which is double Z. And here is why. Taking care to name

which animals you want, how many you want, and why you want them. Go. So nothing massive. So small, sort of like what the gentleman was talking about, like those small woodland animals like raccoons, cats,

ferrets, beavers, things like that. Again, it's aesthetic. And again, it's also – I think the taxidermy falls under the more macabre banner, but there is also that philosophical component to it as well. And I would say no more than 10 at the very most, imaginably. Sarah, is your husband legitimately got an obsession with the macabre or is this just something he's taking on? It's legitimate.

It's absolutely legitimate. All right. Finally, and this is for all the money. Sarah, my darling, I would like to keep a human skull in our home. And please give your explanation in the most, in the style of macabre. So I think that more than anything else, this,

this, the, I think that the philosophical component is actually strongest with this. The macabre thing is obviously self-evident, but I really, really think that this is not like a silly affectation as much as I really find something very compelling about the idea of something that once housed a human being being in my home. And I don't mean that in like a impress your friends kind of way. I mean that in a really,

really seriously like thought provoking way. And I do also, you know, I grew up reading Edgar Allen Poe and H.P. Lovecraft. So that's part of it too. All right. John Roderick,

do you have any further questions? Do you intend to have kids? Yes. Yes. Do you intend to bleach their skulls? It's a natural follow-up. Hopefully I won't be in a position to. Wrong answer.

I think the definition of wrong answer. Do you have, what is your ambition in life besides working at the restaurant, Nick? I'm in school for economics. I would like to be an economist. I see. And Sarah, your ambition you mentioned before, but I forget. I am applying to PhD programs for political science. I want to be a professor. Okay. And finally, two more questions really quickly. Are either of you vegetarians? No. Are either of you cannibals?

No. I have everything I need to make my decision. I'm going to my chamber and to ponder the skull of my former friend, Yorick. Nicely done. Please rise as Judge Seanodgman exits the courtroom

sarah this has been quite the macabre discussion how are you feeling i i'm freaked out i'm definitely freaked out i think the the i would say the the real apex of this this has been the discussion of the heirloom skulls. I don't think I needed to know that. I don't think I ever thought in my life I would be having a real conversation about importing skulls from India and China. Did you know going into this that the longtime mascot of MaximumFun.org is a taxidermied squirrel named Nutsy? Nick had informed me of something of that nature. I felt it was possible that the cards were stacked against me, but I would hope that my

innate fear of things that appear dead, that may or may not in fact be dead, would be enough to sway the judge and jury here. I'll tell you what, Sarah, whatever positive Nutsy brings to the table is balanced out by the negative of the nightmare gerbils that we can't even bring ourselves to throw away because it's too creepy to throw them in a trash can. So they sit on a shelf that we hope is hidden from guests. Nick, how are you feeling right now? I mean, I don't want to take anything for granted, but I feel pretty good. I mean, I had an inclination towards, you know, the judge's preferences, you know, with this stuff. And I don't, you know, I mean, I'll be honest, like, regardless of how he rules, I don't want to be a jerk.

So, I mean, I still have to take into consideration, like, how much this will truly disturb Sarah. But, you know, depending on the ruling. What about having been said? He's going to step in the right direction, skull-wise. Guest expert John Roderick, I have a quick question for you. guest expert John Roderick I have a quick question for you if you could have any taxidermied animal

in your home what taxidermied animal would you like to have platypus that was fast that's a good one was that picture it I am picturing it

now who does what listener doesn't want a taxidermied platypus. Picture it. Picture it. I am picturing it. It seems pretty cool. Now, who doesn't, what listener doesn't want a taxidermied platypus? At me. I read this amazing book about taxidermied polar bears. Yes, I've seen a lot of them in my life. And it made me really want a taxidermied polar bear. It's called Nanook, Flat Out and Blossom, A Cultural Life of Polar Bears. And it features photographs of taxidermied polar bears in their,

what you might call natural environments throughout the world. And it's beautiful and remarkable. And I recommend it highly to people, but I also recommend to people that they buy me a taxidermied polar bear. There's one in the lobby of the Hilton hotel in Anchorage. That is especially extraordinary. Oh, I bet it is. I bet it is. Okay.

We got to get back to this case. Please rise as judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. Skulls Unlimited has a platypus skeleton available for $575. What? It is a replica. It is a replica. Oh.

Your search continues. I don't want a replica platypus skeleton. Of course you don't. We all knew that you wouldn't want a replica platypus skeleton. Of course you don't. We all knew that you wouldn't want a replica platypus skeleton, John Roderick. So I apologize to get your hopes up and to dash them, but that is part of my job as the judge of this court. John, you had asked the

defendant and complainant if they intended to have children. May I ask what was the intent behind your question and were you satisfied with the answer? I think I was very satisfied that they do intend to have children because I think that is a wonderful thing for people to do, to have children. breadth if he had a if he had a child or multiple children and he used these skulls to instruct them in the fragility of life and in the natural cycle and the the order of things to have a to have a skull in the home seems to have had a profound effect on him as a child and it seemed like maybe something he was he was not saying explicitly but something that he wanted to cultivate in his own children

an understanding of of uh of life's impermanence i absolutely very well said i absolutely excuse me sir you're standing judgment. Please be quiet. I absolutely agree with Mr. Roderick. And indeed, as the human body may be pulled apart into pieces and sold for parts. So this case is also severable. I'm severing it into three parts in the question of keeping animal skulls and skeletons in the home I find in favor of the defendant, Nick. I will permit it. However, 50 is too many for 50 is too many for the size

of the apartment that you have currently. Indeed. What do you have? A one-bedroom apartment? Yes. And do you have a private space of your own? No. You have no private space of any kind? No. We have sort of a common living room combo office area that we both use and then a bedroom and a kitchen. I'm going to order that you divide your ambition by ten.

You may keep five skulls of small woodland creatures in a place where Sarah does not have to see them all of the time. All right. And you must keep them well, and they must not be lying around or kept in the kitchen shelves. As I have written before, the difference between a collector and a hoarder is a display case. All right. Then you may, of course, once you become

a famous economist and you have an office of your own outside of the home, you may keep as many animal skulls in there as you wish. All right. As economics is the dismal science, I encourage you to do it.

As regards to the issue of taxidermed animals, they do not speak to me personally in the same way that I obviously am fascinated with the idea of keeping skulls. But that said, I cannot convince someone to like

what I don't like or to dislike what I do like or to like what I like. I can't convince anyone of anything apparently. I don't even know what I'm't like or to dislike what I do like or to like what I like. I can't convince anyone of anything. Apparently I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. I will, however, because it only reached a four on the skeeve out meter, I will allow it,

but I am also dividing it by 10. Your ambition will be divided by 10 to one. Well taxidermed creature that is not larger than a table radio. Let Nutsy the squirrel be your guide.

Okay? Don't get a wolverine. Okay? And I advise you to take your time choosing because you will be allowed one and only one until you get your own crazy office, which you can fill with all

of your dark arts. As per the human skull issue, I find in the favor of the complainant, Sarah, you are not permitted to get a human skull. Thank you so much. While I appreciate that all of the human skulls say that are sold through Skulls Unlimited, for example, are impeccably sourced and responsibly provenanced, and that especially the research-grade ones

are obviously from people who have chosen that fate for themselves, and that no one is going to steal the head off of your mother's shoulders, Sarah. And that even the heirloom skulls, while they have a dark history behind them, those people are not coming back to life. Those skulls will not uh, while they have a dark history behind them, those people are not coming back to life. Those skulls will not, will not be remade whole because, uh, because of.