Judge John Hodgman - Breeches of Contract

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

Mike wears the same cargo pants every day! He says one pair is all he needs. Gabby disagrees! She believes a person needs at least 2 pairs of pants. It’s science. But Mike says he’s too tired in the morning to think about what to wear. One pair of pants is easy! Who’s right? Who’s wrong?We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman!Thanks to reddit user u/TheRhubarbarian for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Join at $5 a month at maximumfun.org/join!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bill of Jesse Thorne. This week, breaches of contract. Gabby brings the case against her husband, Mike. Mike wears the same cargo pants every day. He says one pair is all he needs. Gabby disagrees. She believes a person needs at least two pairs of pants.

It's science. But Mike says he's too tired in the morning to think about what to wear. One pair of pants is easy. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Hey, David, instead of living with your parents,

why don't you just try sleeping in one of your cargo shorts pockets? Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Mike Gabby, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling,

despite the fact that he's wearing two pairs of pants right now? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's wearing two pairs of pants right now? I do. I do. Judge Hodgman, I no longer know what the premise of those little jokes is. You may proceed. It's only to speak the truth. I am very careful.

I do wear two pairs of pants. I wear my regular pants, and then I wear underpants. Aha! Mike and Gabby, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment. In one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered? Well, this new courtroom, we are here at the studios of Head Gum, New York City.

Our friends have allowed us to invade their home for reasons that are boring. But here I am. And there you are. And do you have a guess for me? Let's start with you, Gabby. Is it a quote from the film Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants?

Is it a quote from the film Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants? I like that guess. I'm gonna write it down. I did it. All right, I will remember your guess now, Gabby. Mike, it is now your turn to guess. I did it. All right. I will remember your guess now, Gabby. Mike, it is now your turn to guess.

I guess it's a quote from Dicktown. The show Dicktown? Yes. What streaming platform would that be on? Hulu, I believe. We watched that. And what episode do you think it might be from? One with the hot air balloon also.

I don't remember the name of that one. You're talking about season two, episode two. Sure. Sounds good. Okay, I'll write that down. Phew, that was wrong. All guesses were wrong, except one was very close to correct. Mike, you almost walked away with it.

But it was a quote from Dicktown on Quibi. Dicktown on Quibi was the correct answer. Yeah, our secret third season. Quick bites. It was from Dicktown on Hulu, now available via your Disney Plus bundle. It amuses me to no end that Disney Plus is now responsible for distributing Dicktown,

the show that I created with our friend David Reese, It amuses me to no end that Disney Plus is now responsible for distributing Dicktown, the show that I created with our friend David Reiss, and that was indeed a quote from Dicktown, but wrong season, wrong episode, Mike. How embarrassing for you and embarrassing for me because I can't remember which one it was from now. It was from season one, episode, I want to say nine, the penultimate episode, the mystery of the impossible car, in which my character, a former child detective

who still works for children, John Huntsman, roasts his colleague, driver and hired muscle, David Purifoy, played by David Reese, who for always, well, for living with his parents and always wearing cargo pants, specifically cargo shorts. But Mike, this is about not cargo shorts, but cargo pants, specifically your cargo pants. And in this case, we are talking not pants, plural, but pants, singular. Correct, Mike?

That's correct. All right. Before we get into it, who seeks justice in my courtroom? I do. Gabby. And what is your relationship to Mike, if that is indeed his name? Mike is my husband and a whole human being in his own right. Very nice.

And how did you two meet? Where are you in the world and how did you two meet? So we dwell in Albuquerque, New Mexico. The land of enchantment. The land of enchantment. And the kind of sub nickname is the land of entrapment. And because Mike went to graduate school here, he was doomed by the entrapment to come back. And so we were both living in Western Pennsylvania and met on Bumble and have, during the pandemic,

relocated back to the West. He's originally from Anchorage. I'm originally from Portland. And so we wanted to be back in the West. Anchorage, Alaska? Yes, yeah. Right next door to Alaska, at least. Yeah, Gabby, you should feel lucky

that he wears any pants at all. Yeah, Gabby, you should feel lucky that he wears any pants at all. That's a fair point. He's a wild man from the frontier. I would have expected him to be clad in whale blubber. For sure. Well, seal breaches, seal skin breaches was normal. But now you're there in ABX breaking bad territory.

It's called the land of entrapment because people love it there or because people get entrapped by undercover police officers a lot. Sometimes but no, generally it's people who try to leave always find themselves having coming back for one reason or another. Yeah, it's a wonderful state and you can learn a whole lot about it on an upcoming episode of E Pluribus Motto starring Janet Varney and me. But that's a different podcast. Now here we are.

Now Mike, the issue here is pants. Right now I am looking at you, I guess I'm finding you through the camera in the Land of Enchantment itself, Albuquerque. Are you wearing any pants at the moment? I am, yes. For our YouTube viewers, would you prove it please? Okay. Thank you.

Okay, please spin around because those could be buttless chaps. Okay, all right. Jesse, you verify that those are pants too? I can verify those are pants. All right. We're concurred on pants then. Mike, now that we know that you're wearing pants, we also know that you are employable. What is your employment, if I may ask? I am an economist for the state of New Mexico.

I should say there are probably lots of people who are working from home right now, listening to this podcast, who are very employable and are definitely not wearing pants. So please keep your cards and letters to yourselves. You're an economist. And what does that entail? Largely forecasting tax revenue for the state. That must be a lot of fun.

Is it a fun time to be an economist? Everything seems great. Yeah, it's fun for me in the same way that it's fun for a doctor discovering a new disease. Okay. And Caby, how do you spend your time? So I am by training a musician and I conduct the first ever trauma informed chorus here in Albuquerque for young people. What is a trauma informed chorus if I may ask?

So a trauma informed chorus is a chorus that seeks to be an environment where anybody can come with whatever history they have and feel safe there. If they come with neurodiversity, that's great. If they come with a great history of like nurturing childhood and fabulous human beings raising them, that's great. It's a good place for them. And if that is less the case, it's also a good place for them.

So it's trauma informed rather than trauma specific. I'm not in the business of asking children when they come through the door. So what's the worst thing that ever happened to you? I think you might get in trouble if you did. What kind of songs do you sing in the chorus? So we sing stuff from every musical tradition you can possibly imagine.

I'm trained as a classical musician. So that is- What was your instrument that you were trained on primarily? Voice. Oh, okay, great. Carry it with you. Yep, it's true. It's very portable. You do have to sort of eat your breakfast on it every morning, which, great. Carry it with you. Yep, it's true, it's very portable.

You do have to sort of eat your breakfast on it every morning, which is problematic. It's not the case with say a viola, but you know, we do what we can. Oh, you know, I used to play the viola. Did you really? Yeah, I was a violist. And I was much better at eating breakfast off of it

than playing it, to be honest with you. I mean, that's sea cleft. It's a problem. You've never heard of Eola played properly until you've heard it stuffed with Muesli. True, true enough. I also played the clarinet, and I mostly use that as a boba straw. That read must have gotten in the way though, hey? At least it's a single read. Gabby, I interrupted you though. You were going to tell me about some of the songs that you sing in your chorus.

So we sing a lot of tunes from the African-American spiritual tradition. We sing New Mexican folk tunes. We sing classical compositions. We sing original compositions. Just kind of everything under the sun. Our most recent concert was a concert of protest songs. That's wonderful. You are an economist and you economize when it comes to pants.

You only have a pair. I do have a backup pair, but I don't like wearing that one. Oh, Gabby, he's got a backup pair. All right, wrap it up, Giacomo, we're out of here. All right, well, setting aside your backup pair, tell me about, well, you know what? I'm gonna ask Gabby, why don't you tell me about

your husband's pants? How would you describe them? Dirty? Stained? I refrain from making judgments about the cleanliness of the pants. I feel that that is not my station necessarily. Gabby, dirty is not an opinion.

We need to begin living in an objective shared reality again. And I trust you to trust your eyes, nose, and other senses. Is this single, when was the last time the single pair of primary pants was washed? And who did it? So we kind of share laundry duties. And I believe the last time the pair that he's currently wearing was laundered was sometime last week. Sometime last week, and we were recording on a Monday.

Would you say more than four days ago? I would be guessing, but I think the answer to that question is yes. Mike, I'm gonna ask you in a moment, do you, just answer yes or no, do you know when the last time these pants were washed? Yes. All right.

For the benefit of our viewers on the YouTube channel, Judge John Hodgman Pod, we are now showing a slow motion recap of Mike's pants display, so that you can guess in the comments how long ago it was these pants were washed. At the end of the episode, we'll reveal the answer. And if you got it right, good for you.

Meanwhile, we're at somewhere between four and seven days, I think, so pick a number between four and seven and put it in the comments. And maybe you'll be the lucky winner. I don't know. In any case, it's a while. Gabby, what is your complaint about the pants? I believe that he wears the same pair of pants over and over, not only for reasons of utility and ease in the morning. But I believe that this is just a way to not make an intentional choice.

Say more about that for me. So Mike uses his pants kind of as his purse, I guess I would say. So there's a lot of belongings that he does not wish to transfer from one pair to the other. By belongings, you mean cargo? Yes, that's what I would be referring to, Your Honor. He has a lot of cargo.

Seems like he might be in a cargo cult. It might be. What kind of cargo do you got in your pants, Mike? Keys, wallet. You know what? I'm gonna do it. Empty your pockets right now. Everything on the table.

No more secrets. And Mike, as each thing comes out, tell us what it is. So this is my work phone. Uh-oh. Here's two phones. Red flag. My wallet. Okay. Probably got. Red flag. My wallet. Okay.

He's probably got a phone just for drug dealing. That's right. Some keys. Keys. Hankerchief. That's for brow mopping. And earbuds. Okay, nice cargo.

And by the way, nicely arranged on the table. Yeah, and my personal phone. Well, more things are coming. This is like Mary Poppins' carpet bag here. More clowns? How'd they fit in there? Yeah, fair enough, Gabby. He's using his pants as a purse.

That seems reasonable. Why are you against pockets? I am actually very pro pocket. I have one of my main beefs with clothing typically made for women is that the pockets are super non capacious and it fills me with woe. So I totally relate to the idea that one would want to carry cargo in one's pockets. You're just jealous of his pockets. I will admit that I do feel a sense of envy about pockets in clothing made for men, generally speaking.

Yeah. I mean, I don't blame you. Traditionally, women gendered clothing is really pocket deficient. And there's a lot of cargo that we carry around with us. But that's no reason to punish your beloved husband on a podcast, just because you hate his pockets and resent them. I feel that there are ways of moving these items from one pair of pants to another. So my quarrel is not with the existence of the pockets or the use of the pockets.

It's the refusal to change from one set of pockets to a new, perhaps cleaner set of pockets. Now, hold on. Gabby, you've asserted to us that Mike doesn't change his pants because he doesn't want to move things between his pockets. I haven't heard Mike tell us why, can't believe this is real, why he only wears one pair of pants. Mike, why in your words do you only wear one pair of pants with, we will grant you an emergency backup pair?

Ease. I don't have to really think about it too much in the morning. I tend to be, I think the term Gabby uses is neuro spicy. And I need routines are very important for me in the morning. So it's well, I can have the pants that are right there, pull a polo from my dresser, and then I'm done. And there's no more planning. If I have to do much more planning than I kind of lose other steps in my routine in the morning. Do I understand correctly, Mike,

that you leave the cargo in the cargo bays of your pants overnight? Yes. the cargo in the cargo bays of your pants overnight? Yes. Okay. So, and do you sleep in your pants? No, no. Just trying to see how far this goes. So your bedtime routine is you drop your, you're standing by your bed, you drop your pants, they fall to the ground very easily because they're full of ballast.

They thunk right down. And then you hop into bed and then in the morning you just stand up into those pants and then I presume you have some kind of machine that raises them onto your body again, like in a Rube Goldberg fashion or what? Or you just put it on. I wish. So I really wish I'm still trying to train the dogs to do that for me, actually. How many dogs are we talking about?

We have three. Do we have any photos of these dogs we need to be looking at right now? I think two are in one of the exhibits, exhibit A. So I'm looking at the evidence now. If you're on YouTube, you're seeing it as well. If you want to check it out on our socials or on our show page at MaximumFun.org, all of our evidence will be posted there as always. And exhibit A is indeed a photo of your dog's butt, Mike. Yes, that's Grover. Yeah, what's great about the dog's butt

is that it looks a little bit like the logo for a YMCA. In any case, we have here a photo, not just of a very cute dog named Grover, did you say? Yes. Right. But also a very cute man named you. With your thumbs up, what is the thumbs up indicating in this photo, Mike? So I believe a secondary part of Gabby's complaint is about just the choices and that I prefer that if I wear clothing,

it's or the clothing I wear needs to contrast. So if I'm wearing lighter color pants like khaki, as in this case, and I need to wear a darker polo, like in this case black. So I prove that the exhibit B has got the combination that I do not like and refuse to wear. Oh, well let's see exhibit B then please. Boo. This is you with your thumbs down. I'm not booing you. I'm channeling your energy, Mike.

Yes. You've got your thumbs down because you're wearing your dark black polo again, but this time with some charcoal-colored cargo pants, would you say? Yes, yeah. These are also dark. I mean, these are well short of charcoal.

These are our mid-gray at darkest. Mid-gray at dark. Not enough contrast for you or Gabby, Mike? Correct. Okay. I gotta say, while I do not accept the premise that there isn't enough contrast here because there's a lot of contrast,

also I don't accept the premise that you need contrast, I do accept it based on the great faces that Mike is making in these pictures. I'm completely compelled by that element of his argument. You are giving some great faces in these photos, for sure. Yeah, you're basically Rosie Perez on Soul Train with the face that you're giving. It's fantastic.

So, all right, you have two pairs of shorts and two pairs of pants, total. Yeah, yeah, correct. Your regular khakis, which you like, those are the thumbs up ones. Yes. And those gray pocket baddies that we just saw? That's your backup? Those are your backup booties? Yes. Okay. The gray pants we were referred to in our house as the bad pants.

The khaki pants are the good pants and the gray ones are the bad ones. What makes them bad? Who calls them bad? I do. Mike raised his hand. Mike, why are the gray pants bad? Because they are, they don't have enough contrast with the majority of the polo shirts that I have, or shirts that I wear. That raises a question that I wanted to ask. In the two photos that we saw, you were wearing a black polo shirt, but in our meeting here today, you're wearing like a nice blue polo shirt or

something like that, right? Uh, it's a collared pullover. Uh, so you, is that all the shirts you own? No, I have many more shirts. I wear a new shirt every day, a clean shirt every day. That doesn't seem very economical compared to your pant conservation system. Generally if you wear the same pants every day, people won't notice too much because they're just khakis and everyone has lots of khakis, generally.

But if you wear the same shirt every day, people will notice. It's easier to fool people into thinking you're wearing clean pants if they're khakis. Yes. Got it. Why do you feel that the contrast is important? I've been thinking about general vibe or aesthetics, I think. It just feels better to you to have a contrast. Yeah. I'll say this, John, in my capacity as a menswear expert.

I don't generally love black shirts for a variety of reasons. I don't generally love the combination of khaki and black. It's a little harsh and black, can be a little bit harsh. They also can look ratty really quickly. Um, but taking a look at the pictures that Mike has sent. Mike is a pretty high contrast guy has very dark hair and pretty pale skin. has very dark hair and pretty pale skin. Mm-hmm. Um, that's relatively well-suited

to this kind of high-contrast color palette. And, um, he looks all right, as far as I'm concerned. He looks pretty solid. Thank you. I trust his projections. Gabby, is there anything else while you're here that Mike wears that annoys you or that you think should change?

So the fixation on a single pair of something is not only for pants, it is also for shoes. And I've tried to convince him that if you wear only one pair of shoes every single day, they wear out really fast. Whereas if you have a couple of pairs that you rotate, then you can get a lot more wear out of them. And also they'd feel better on your feet because you're not wearing the same pair every single day. And shoes have been a point of uniqueness

for my beloved husband. And I believe you were told before we started dating that you would like never find a woman who would put up with your five finger toe shoes. Yes. And I would like to state for the record that the five finger toe shoes were never a point of contention for me, that I am not opposed to uniqueness. I am only opposed to a lack of intentionality. Now I would like to note that Jesse Thorne did a little dance when he heard the term five-fingered toe shoes.

And if you're watching on YouTube, you're seeing a slow motion recap of that right now. Let's enjoy this for a moment. Thank you. And now, Jesse, why were you dancing? I didn't know that the ante could be upped from one pair of pants. One pair of cargo pants? One pair of cargo pants. That seems, oh man, this is amazing. I'm surprised that he doesn't only wear a utility kilt to the office.

Oh look, he put his shoes up there on the table as well. Are those five finger shoes right now? They are. Wow. Yes, yesinger shoes right now? They are. Wow. Yes. I wore them for the occasion. Do you? Okay. Hold on. Mike, are your little tootsies flapping in the wind there in the studio in New Mexico?

Yes, they are. Feet on main. Are you wearing toe socks too or just regular socks? I am wearing toe socks. I've been so amazed and astonished by this five toe toe sock, five toe shoe revelation that I've forgotten the whole point of this story. You were talking about, when did you discover

during your dating process that Mike was wearing these toe shoes and the single pair of pants? The single pair of pants revelation came later and I'm not actually sure that was still happening then because we were both employed at universities at the time. Right. And so I think there was a little bit more variety because he was seeing more people. Is that not true? No, it's not true. I was, this has been a consistent since high, basically. Well, color me oblivious.

Tell me about the day you woke up and said, I'm throwing all those extra pants away. I'm sticking with this pair from now on. Um, I think it came from, um, at one, I had been doing my laundry for quite a few years then at one point, my dad kind of complained, why are you doing so much laundry? And I said, well, I got to wash all my pants. He said, well, you can wear the same pants more than just one day. That was a revelation to me and I realized, oh, if that's the case, then these things became much, much easier for me.

Right. You ran with it and you sweated in those pants and then you just wore them again. Well, generally if I do anything that causes me to sweat quite a bit, I will wash the pants right away. So Gabby, you just learned that this has been going on since Mike was in high school. You didn't notice, how do you feel? I do feel a little bad about that because, I mean, I guess I can give myself a pass with the whole,

you know, blush of new love situation. I don't know. Also you were distracted by those hot toe shoes. That is also a possibility. His friends gave him a lot of crap for the toe shoe situation. Would you prefer to wear no clothes at all? No, I'd prefer to wear clothes, but no shoes if I could get away with it.

Yeah, you can get away with a lot more than you think. Is this an ideological issue, a sensory issue? I'd say sensory or comfort. Comfort is my primary choice for clothing and then utility. Gabby, what do you think's going on? So for me, the story end of the story is that Mike doesn't want to have to do anything nice for himself. And so he is choosing a thing that is easy and functional

without thinking about what might be easy enough, functional enough, but also spark some joy. When we got married, we had our reception at our home in our backyard. And we bought special outfits for that occasion. And one of those outfits was- Cargo tux? Linen pants and a nice linen shirt.

And the whole time we were shopping for this, the whole conversation was about how nice linen is and how nice it is to wear linen and how good it feels, how good it looks. And I think there's something in there. We live in a state where you can wear linen like nine, ten months out of the year. And I would love to see that get incorporated because not only does it feel comfortable both physically and emotionally, it also celebrates an aspect of

who you are. You're suggesting that Mike has difficulty doing nice things for himself or privileging his comfort? I would say so, and there's many examples of this, but the pants are just maybe one of the more extreme ones. I mean, he does wear toe shoes. That's pretty much an offense against society in favor of his own comfort. Toe shoes are the ultimate indulgence. an offense against society in favor of his own comfort. Toe shoes are the ultimate indulgence. It seems to me like he's not shy about indulging himself when it counts down in his tootsies. True.

And the toe shoe thing I think of as a separate phenomenon because he doesn't wear the toe shoes every day. He just busted those out to be cool here, I think. Most of the shoes that he wears, like he'll wear one pair of shoes until they have holes in the bottom of the soles. And then he comes home one day and he's like, I've got a hole in my shoe.

I guess I'm gonna have to go buy new shoes. And I'm like, yeah, I guess you are. That's a little something called Yankee thrift. He learned that from Adlai Stevenson. But it's the case, Mike, that you could have a pair of toe shoes for everyday wear and then a pair of formal toe shoes and then maybe some beach toe shoes. I mean, I don't know. Why don't you feel you deserve extra pairs of shoes and pants?

The larger answer would be cost. The economist comes out. But I did wear these shoes every day while teaching at the university. And I did have a pair for the gym and a pair for work or for just teaching. Mike, when you say cost, I'm a little confused because if you had two pairs of pants, would those pants wear out faster because you were wearing them half the time?

Or is the capital investment of two pairs of $50 pants, too great for the return of each of those pairs of pants lasting a little longer. I'd have to say the second one with the capital investment being not high enough or the return not being high enough on that investment. I think Gabby's making an assertion that's worth drawing out here, which is that when you have one pair of pants and certainly one

pair of shoes that you wear every day, and in the case of the pants, wash or clean relatively infrequently, you will get fewer wears out of that garment than if you had alternated or washed regularly. So, you know, in the case of a textile, you know, in the case of pants, there is also a cost to washing them in terms of their wear, right? Tumbling them in the washer and dryer also wears them out. But washing them regularly, you know, every few wears

is an important part of, you know, maintaining their lifespan, improving their lifespan because the gunk that gets into them wears them out. Jesse, if you were trying to make your cargo pants last longer and to be economical in your practice of wearing pants, how often would you wash them and would you ever machine dry them? I certainly wouldn't machine dry them if I was trying to make them last as long as possible.

Because that breaks them down, right? I think I've learned that from you in the past. Yeah, it does. I mean, you know, it's not catastrophic. I use the dryer sometimes too. And it's possible that Mike's sensory needs preclude drying them on the line because they could get a little crispy.

Some people like that. I love some crispy pants. OK, well, there you go. Mike is shaking his head no. I love them when they're air dried crispy. Do you know what I mean? some crispy pants. Okay, well, there you go. Mike is shaping his head, no. I love them when they're air-dried crispy. Do you know what I mean? I don't like crispy pants when they're dirt crispy.

When they start to maintain their shape through sheer secretions, dirt, and oils. But, you know. But yeah, I think, you know, New Mexico is a dry but warm place. Yeah. And Mike's a big dude. If it was me, I'd be inclined to say every few wears, three maybe. I mean, it depends on the swampiness of his pants area, which is an individual thing that I can't judge.

Right. I would think Gabby would be able to judge that to some extent. I would like to not judge that, thank you. Thanks to their marital relationship. But I would guess three. Three would be about where I would put it. I think- After three days of wear, run them through the wash

and then dry them. Tumble dry if you want them to be soft, which I think you do, Mike, right? Or line dry if you like them to be fresh and crispy, Hodgman style. Is that what, that would be your recommendation? Yeah, and even more than that, I think that, you know, this is particularly true with shoes, but giving clothes time to rest and dry, um, from the swampiness of being worn,

uh, is pretty useful. So if you really wanted to maximize for utility purposes, the health of his pants and the lifespan of his pants, I'd be inclined to suggest that he hang them in between and alternate. So they get time to rest and get some air and basically dry out. Oh, look, Mike likes his pants the way they are.

How do you feel about them, Gabby? If he had more than, if he had five identical pairs of these pants, let's just say that it happened somehow. They fell off a truck or a podcast accidentally bought him five pairs of his pants. Would you be comfortable with him as he is dressed in this photo, just with cleaner pants more often?

Truly, it's not about the cleanliness of the pants, as bizarre as that sounds. Well, why isn't it? This is what I wanna know. Look, I wear my pants a lot, day after day. Like, I am not a guy who wears a fresh pair of pants every day. Anyone who's toured with me knows it, right Jesse?

That's true. And I, there comes a point where the pants feel dirty to my legs. And I know they must be washed. It is not, it is more than once a week, but it is, I will let them go several days. But if they are dirty, they're dirty and they feel bad to me and I can't imagine they look sharp to you, Cappy. Why doesn't anyone care about the cleanliness of these pants? C.P.

Again, I am, I really want to be a supportive person who doesn't control what their spouse chooses to wear. That was one of my concerns with presenting this case in the first place, was that I'd be like nasty mean wife lady who wanted to dress her husband differently, just because I want him to adhere to some arbitrary aesthetic that I have chosen. And that's not where we're at here. Like, that's not the perspective that I have chosen. And that's not where we're at here. Like, that's not the perspective that I'm taking. I'm taking the perspective of we choose to wear things that we enjoy because we like many things about them, not just that they are convenient, but also perhaps that they

represent us in the world in a way that we like or that they make us feel a certain way about ourselves. And the comment about, you know, they feel dirty to my legs. I don't think he thinks about that. Mike, you have a very wonderful spouse. I think you'd probably agree. Yes, I am very lucky.

For most people, cargo pants alone, nevermind one single pair, would be a deal breaker. It would be an article of pre-divorce. You wouldn't even get to married. And Gabby, I really appreciate what you say there. I do not want Mike to feel ashamed of his pants. I think I share with you a desire for Mike to feel very comfortable and to prioritize his comfort and sense of well-being.

But you say that he has difficulty doing nice things for himself. Why do you think that is, Gabby? So last night, we got a knock on the door at four o'clock in the morning, and it was our neighbor across the street. And she'd had some kind of plumbing emergency in the night and her bedroom was flooding because something under her main bedroom sink had popped loose.

And Mike grabbed his flip flops and ran across the street at four o'clock in the morning to help this woman and then came back and got all of our old towels and brought them back again to help clean up and support this woman who we interact with on a very casual basis once in a while. This is not like our best friend or anything, but this is just who he is. He thinks first about the other people in the world. I think that is a beautiful, beautiful quality.

And I also think that he deserves that kind of love and regard as well. Have you thought about just buying him some pants as a present? I have. And the reason I don't is because if he doesn't like it, he just won't wear it. And I don't want to be mad about it. I guess that that also could come across as being a little passive aggressive too. Yeah.

Mike, if you had a premium pair of pants in a similarly utilitarian style, indeed, if you had pants that had premium levels of utility, would you feel better or be happier than you are now in your pants from the website where you buy Chinese ceiling anchor hooks when your pot rack falls on the ceiling. That's the last thing I bought there. I don't know. Got it.

I'm sorry about your pot rack. Thank you. I did. I found the studs. So I'm all set. Mike, stop thinking about other people, AKA Jesse. Don't worry about his pot rack. He's gonna be fine. Next time it falls down, I'm gonna knock on Mike's door at four o'clock in the morning. Bring your towels! My pot rack fell! Honestly, you totally could.

But if you had, instead of the $34 generic option, which I don't think is a horrible option, they look perfectly fine, they're unbranded, they're reasonably tasteful. But if you had the great version of that, including potentially, for example, more durable textile, stretch for comfort, things like that.

How, how would you feel? I feel better. I think Gabby says that you have some difficulty prioritizing your own comfort, whereas you're more than happy to throw all of your beautiful towels into your neighbors, uh, spilling over poo water or whatever. How do you feel when she says that you have difficulty prioritizing your self-comfort? Mike Snell, MPH, PhD I agree. I'm, that's something I've, I've been, uh, working on with the help of a therapist. Mike, do you feel that it might be a little bit easier to transition if there were an elf who lived in your house who moved your cargo from one set of pants to the other and

put the fresh pants on the floor beside your bed and you didn't even know that it was happening? Absolutely. Gabby, are you willing to be a cargo pants elf for your husband? I am going to say that feels a little codependent to me. Gabby, you're too smart. You're too emotionally intelligent. She is much more intelligent than I am on almost all dimensions. Every time I come up with a wacky scheme, you bat it away with a simple plea that I

honor your own agency and intelligence. Good for you for being a good advocate for yourself and for your husband, Mike, whom you love. What would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor, Gabby? My ideal ruling would be that my lovely husband, who absolutely can afford more than one pair of pants, in my estimation as a person who makes less money than him, he can totally afford more than one pair of pants. And I would like for him to have some clothes that were for every day for the sake of purely ease,

but then some clothes that are really a celebration of who he is and how he feels, that he puts on on days where maybe he doesn't feel so good inside, like having something that can give him a little bit of a lift, like a favorite pair of linen pants or a favorite shirt that just makes you feel really spiffy. It's that kind of thing that I would like to see him embrace, not because of how others perceive him, but because of how he perceives himself. Mike, how do you feel when you hear Gabby's hope for you? That sounds like a wonderful ideal to reach in the future. That's a very diplomatic

answer. I am an economist. It sounds like you're saying that that sounds like a wonderful ideal for someone else. No, I could, this be something nice to reach for myself. I think I am made uncomfortable by the amount of effort I see on moving from where I am now to that. Mike, have you had clothing in the past that gave you a special fizzy feeling? Yes. What clothing is that? I really had actually a very nice pair of linen pants and an exceptionally ugly pair

of pajama pants, but they both kind of wore out completely. Linen pants wore out too quickly and the pajama pants actually somehow disappeared in a move. I don't know what happened. I think someone stole them. Were these linen pants your wedding pants? No, I still in a move. I don't know what happened. I think someone stole them. Were these linen pants your wedding pants? No, I still have those pants. I don't wear them as much just because they tend to wear out pretty quickly. Because you've been betrayed by linen before it sounds like. I have, yes.

But the linen pants, I believe we have a photo of you in the linen pants at your and Gabby's nuptials, correct? Yes, that's correct. Let's take a look at that exhibit. Mike, is this you over there on the left? Yes. Looking so sharp and relaxed? Yes.

This is a nice outfit, not very high contrast, I must say. Nice pale blue shirt that looks really comfortable, nice white linen pants, you've got a sporty cap on. Gabby, you look terrific as well. I don't mean to be superficial, but you both look so handsome and lovely in this photo. Mike, if I were to rule in your favor, I presume that you would like things to stay

just the way they are, right? Yes, the status quo is good for me. You are, you are, however, you mentioned that you've been working with a therapist to address some things in your life and you have some somewhat cautiously acknowledged that some discomfort in the, in the, uh, in the service of personal growth is not completely off the table for you. Correct. Yes. If so, is there something between Gabby's request that you buy some lint, you know,

more fancy linen pants, for example, and some different kinds of pants that make you feel good versus just staying with this one pair of khaki cargo pants. Is there a middle ground between there that you might request that I rule? I would say maybe a staged transition over a significant period of time, maybe with, and some research to make sure that the linen does not wear out as quickly or betray me again. I understand.

We've all been hurt by linen before, trust me. I'll be taking that into real consideration. Mike, that's a quixotic quest. We know that linen is the great betrayer. Well, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. Okay, I'm going to go into my chambers here at Headgum Studios in New York City, and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Mike, how are you feeling about your chances right now? It's the courtroom. Mike, how are you feeling about your chances right now? Not horrible, not great either, but I think there's a good compromise along the way, I think. Gabby, how are you feeling? I feel okay. I just want what's best, you know?

I don't wanna be strong-arming anybody. Hey guys, can I show you something? Absolutely. You're gonna have to stand on my chair, hold on. Oh, nice. See? See? People don't ordinarily get to see my lower half on the video stream, unless there are multiple cameras in the studio,

in which case I'm usually wearing my bailiff pants. But today, I'm wearing the casual pants in which I entered the office, and which case I'm usually wearing my bailiff pants, but today I'm wearing the casual pants in which I entered the office, and they are indeed cargo pants. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second. (*pounds on table*) Judge John Hodgman, we're taking a quick break

from the case. You've got the second season of E Pluribus Motto right around the corner. Season one available now. That's right, Jesse. E Pluribus Motto is the new podcast that your friend and mine, Janet Varney, and I co-host. We cover the state mottos of the states and commonwealths and districts. Season two drops July 8th. Season one is available now if you'd like to catch up.

Upcoming in season two, we've got Kentucky, Minnesota, New Mexico and many others. It's going to be a lot of fun. And it's not just state mottos. It's also state animals, state birds, state drinks, state snacks, state whatever. It's trivia. It's dumb. It's fun.

Listen. John, what's the best, uh, weird official state something or other that you've learned about so far, or maybe that's coming up in season two. Well, Jesse, there are a lot of good ones, but I'll go ahead and tell you the worst state beverage milk. In, I think, 28 states. Holy cow! Big dairy is huge, but I'll tell you what it goes really well with.

That milk, the state snack of Maine, the Whoopie Pie. Oh. That's like a marshmallow thing? It's like two chocolate sponge cakes about the size of a bear paw, that are smooshed around a big hunk of whipped cream. It's delicious. I'll tell you what is better than, the Needham. What's that? Needhams are a main regional delicacy, chocolate dessert delicacy. It's chocolate in roving coconut and mashed potato.

The Needham. Oh, right. You gave me one of those in an airport once. Yeah, yeah. I like to trick you. What do you got coming up, Jesse Thorne? Something happening on Bullseye? Well, I don't know if any freaking nerds

listen to this podcast, but obviously I'm artsy. But if you're interested, just recently on Bullseye, we've had George Takei and Mark Hamill. Whoa! Both totally amazing human beings, fascinating interviews right there on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne. Go watch them on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app.

Make sure and smash those subscribe and like buttons. Oh my San Francisco. I was born here. We'll be back in just a second on the judge. John Hodgman podcast. Please rise as judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. reenters the courtroom and presents his verdict. I really hate pants. I really hate putting them on. And I really hate taking them off.

Shorts, I'm fine with. But pants, I've always been challenging to fit. My body is not shaped like a normal human person body. In the pants department, the proportions that are and to try on pants because I can't I have to try them on because so few pants fit me. Very well at all and really once I found a pair of pants that works for me I really have to lock in. really have to lock in. But that experience of going in and taking off pants and trying on pants, it makes me very, very self-conscious. And it makes me want to sign up for a, an Albuquerque based chorus where I can work through my bad feelings on this subject.

It's like, I hate pants. I hate, I hate everything about them and I totally respect and aim to honor Mike's comfort not only in his own pants, but in his own skin. Especially since, you know, it is clear, Mike, that the change in routine is not comfortable for you. And I want to respect that. At the same time, as much as I appreciate, as I'm sure you do too, Mike, Gabby's hopes and wishes for you,

I think we've got to take linen off the table for now. I think that that's too much of a change. Insofar as we're just trying to figure out a day-to-day life that might be of increased comfort for you over time, Mike. And also, I hate linen as much as I hate pants. Forget about linen pants. Yeah, I'm sorry, Jesse. I don't care for it. Linen is scratchy. It scratches and it makes me feel uncomfortable.

There's something I don't like, and that's when I can feel my clothes touching my body. And linen reminds me that linen is, as they are saying on the internet, it insists upon itself. I'm feeling that linen all the time. That linen is, as they are saying on the internet, it insists upon itself. I'm feeling that linen all the time. Don't care for it, and I sweat easily. It's supposedly one of the most breathable fabrics, and yet anytime I wear linen, I am really hot under the collar.

All of which is to say we all, we all move around in our own horrible meat bodies, there are things that we love and there are things that we don't love and fitting them into clothes is a matter of intense personal preference. And as I say, Mike, I want to honor that for you. So I'm going to take Linden away from the conversation for the moment. As I am taking those toe shoes off the table, and you may now take them off the table, because that's another topic of conversation. What I want to talk about are these pants. You have found pants that you feel comfortable. And I must say, I appreciate that,, it is hard for me to understand because I do not live in your brain how it

is preferable to wear increasingly dirty pants day after day after day and then wash them one time per week. And then while you're washing them to be either bare-bottomed or worse, putting on the bad pants. You don't deserve to have bad pants in your life, Mike. Throw them away. I don't think those pants seem particularly bad or malicious to me, but to you they're bad, and I think they should go away. And you should only always ever have good pants in your life by your own definition. Luckily, you live in New Mexico, where cargo pants in the office constitute good pants. I think that you can do a little bit better, not just in terms of your style.

Your style is your style. And what I love about you and Gabby is Gabby absolutely respects and and loves your style. She is not trying to push a different style on you or try to dress you up like some kind of husband doll. She wants you to prioritize your comfort as as much as as you as anyone needs to, you know? And I do think, quite honestly, that you will feel better if you have more than one pair of khaki cargo pants that you love.

One reason that might speak to you a little bit directly is that as Jesse Thorne has enumerated, believing that having one pair of cargo pants is economical is actually a false economy. Particularly if you're buying relatively cheaply made pants through an online retailer. These are not pants that are necessarily built to last, as it were, and you are wearing them out faster than you would if they were in a rotation with other pants. You would be showing the pants you love more love by having more of them and giving them a chance to rest and relax in the land of enchantment themselves and to air out and etc. They would last longer.

Similarly, I do not think that it would be beyond your pay grade, literally, to purchase another pair or two or maybe even three of not too very expensive pants of the kind that you like. And I would even say that it might be worth exploring. And I say this sounds like I'm being very facetious here, but I'm not. Exploring in consultation with Gabby, other people you trust in your life and your own therapist, as to whether or not you might try getting a pair of those pants hemmed to the proper length of the tailor and see how you feel about it. You say that you'll feel uncomfortable and you might.

But I think that it is part of growth and process to try things that are uncomfortable and see if you can become comfortable in different areas of life. It is part of being out in the world and I think that you might find yourself feeling a little bit more comfortable in pants that are the right length for you. Just give it a try is what I'm saying. It's not an order. But I would say that the main reason that I am ruling in a limited way in Gabby's favor today is that

one is that something you said earlier on, which is that you have to change your shirt every day. Because people in the office will notice if you wear the your shirt every day, because people in the office will notice if you wear the same shirt every day, whereas they're less likely to see that you're wearing the same pants every day. And I don't think you deserve to live clothed in a lie. If you are actively thinking about deceiving your coworkers, then I think that that's a place of discomfort. If you're thinking and you're worrying and you're wondering, if your

coworkers are noticing that you're wearing the same clothes every day, that's not a fun place to be necessarily. Even though the reality is most people don't notice what you're wearing ever, pretty much. Like, very few people ever notice. So, I think you deserve to not live in a lie. And I think that you deserve to try out to get rid of the bad pants. Get more of the good pants. Experiment with making one pair of those pants potentially a little gooder by having them hemmed, give it a try, and give a try to rotating them a little bit

more often. It may not work for you. If this were a true hygiene issue, I'm sure Gabby would be able to say, these pants stink. But that's not at issue here. What's at issue here is your own comfort. You've reached a certain point of comfort. I think that you can go a little bit further to become uncomfortable and to grow a little bit into having more than one pair of pants that you like.

Get three or four identical pairs of pants that you like and see how it goes. This is the sound of a gavel. Okay, it has a lot of pockets, but I use them all the time and I made some of my own modifications. Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Gabby, how are you feeling right now? I feel good. I am looking forward to helping support this routine and this change in a way that makes it more comfortable. And yeah, just continuing to support this journey. Mike, how about you? I feel very happy that everyone thinks so well and is looking out for me, especially my wife. And yeah, I'm willing to try out this new path and see what happens.

Everybody except your elderly across the street neighbors. She's only looking out for herself. Oh, she looks out for us. She's not in our debt, I'll put it that way. Mike, Gabby, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgman case now in the books. We've got Swift Justice coming up in just a second. Our thanks to Redditor TheRuBarbian for naming this week's episode, Breaches of Contract. Have you noticed how many of the people who come up with the puns

that become the titles of our episodes, their Reddit names are puns? Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Punners like punnin'. Yeah, reddit.com slash r slash Maximum Fun is where you can chat about this show and all Max Fun shows on Reddit. That's also where we ask for title suggestions.

You can find the evidence from this show on our Instagram account at Judge John Hodgman, of course on our website at maximumfun.org. You can also find video from this episode on TikTok and YouTube at JudgeJohnHodgmanPod. John, they say the proof is in the pudding and the cargo pants pudding is there on YouTube. You wanna see that I'm wearing cargo pants.

Oh yeah. And may I presume you have pudding in your pockets? I do, I've got, I mean, that's what the cargo pants are for. I mean, you can't put the pudding in the same pocket as your keys and wallet. So they give you leg pockets for the pudding. Speaking of YouTube, our YouTube comment of the week is right here on this device. I'm going to read it to you. It comes from user Ness V739.

If that's a pun, I don't know what it is for. We recently cleared the docket of shopping related disputes you might remember here on the podcast and Ness V739 regrets. I asked people, is there something that they wish they had bought in a store and then they came back to buy it later and it was gone and they regretted it for the rest of their life? Like I regret not buying that painting of a UFO over the Deer Isle Bridge in Maine. Right. Nessv739 regrets not buying a life-sized fiberglass hammerhead shark.

Wow. Writing, I walked by the antique store every day, desperately trying to think of somewhere I could put that shark. Sadly, I had no room for it. And someone else must've admired it too. After a few weeks. The life-sized fiberglass hammerhead shark was gone, and I've never stopped thinking about it.

I really feel bad about that. You gotta get the life-sized hammerhead shark, even if you've got nowhere to store it, if you're thinking about it that much. I'm not trying to Bill Nye bully you into it. I'm just saying, if you're thinking about it, get it. I love to read your comments on our YouTube videos. Please leave them. Leaving a comment on the YouTube video

or on our Instagram or other social media posts really help people discover the show as does sharing those episodes that you love. And it couldn't be easier to do. If you're watching on YouTube right now, there's probably a little button with an arrow on it. Press share, share it with someone you love. Share with someone you just like. I don't care. Share. That's the my motto. I don't care. Share.

Butterscotch pudding in the pockets. Right there in the pockets. Right there in the pockets. Oh my, you don't say. I say. I say. Wow. Yeah. That's just off the dome. Yeah, that's off the dome. Take that Lin-Manuel Miranda. We're listening right now. Hi, Lin. Hi, Lin. Hope you're well.

Judge John Hodgman created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This episode engineered by Lester Watts at Albuquerque Podcasts Studio and by Giacomo Jake Allegro at Headgum in New York City. Thanks to all of them. Our social media manager, Dan Telfer, the podcast is edited by AJ McKee and our video editor is

Daniel Spear, our producer, Jennifer Marmer. You ready for swift justice, John? You got to know the territory, I'm ready. Versus the world again, on the Max Fund subreddit says, I like to eat leftovers for lunch, but I don't heat them up. I'll eat anything cold, enchiladas, pasta, soup, whatever. My partner thinks I'm what's wrong with this world.

I can't think of anything else wrong with this world right now. Yeah, I know. The real problem is that this person is eating cold soup at the office. Yeah, look, I mean, you choose your battles and cold soup is, well, that's a loser for me, but it's a winner for you. People like what they like, I guess. And frankly, I wouldn't want to put my soup into a shared microwave in the office break

room either. So enjoy eating your bowl of snot, but keep it away from me. At some point, all office microwaves become fish only microwaves. Yeah, exactly. And by the way, it wouldn't even snot is warmer than your cold soup. John, I think we need more disputes. We absolutely do need disputes, Jesse Thorne. Our show runs on them.

And since we're on the topic of cargo pants, why not more clothing disputes? Certainly they're contentious. Are barrel jeans a thing to enjoy or a thing to stop? What's the best form of sweater? Vest or cardigan? Those are your options. Is your family making fun of your caftan? Won't you let me know that and all of your clothing disputes

by simply writing to me at hodgeman at maximumfun.org or you can go to maximumfun.org slash jjho. But you know what? I'm mentioning the email address again because I want to hear from you. Hodgeman at maximumfun.org. Yes, it goes directly to me. I'm going to read your dispute and I will send it along to Jennifer Marmor. And maybe she'll call you up.

Maybe we'll have you here on the podcast, just like we had Gabby and Mike, or maybe we'll do something in the New York Times magazine or save it for a docket. If you think you have a dispute, then you do. Send it in. Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. John, just for the less fashion savvy listeners, barrel jeans is when you lost all your money in the stock market crash and so you nail two canvas straps to the top of the barrel

and wear that as clothes. Yes, that's what barrel jeans are and that's why I'm wearing them. We're eager to hear about all your disputes no matter what the subject. Send them to us, Maximumfund.org slash JJHO. That is good. You know, John, I like how you put that. If you think you've got a dispute, you've got a dispute. Send it to us, maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

Yeah, we'll be, we don't need you to judge whether or not your dispute is good enough. We'll be the judge. Maximumfund.org slash JJHO, and we will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artists-owned shows, supported directly by you.