Judge John Hodgman - Campering with the Evidence

Episode Date: November 19, 2014

Dale wants to build a camping trailer, but her husband Shawn objects.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, campering with the evidence. Dale brings the case against her husband, Sean. Dale bought a small trailer, intending to convert it to a food truck for her business. She's figured out it isn't suitable as a food truck. Now she has plans to make it into a small camper. Sean says the trailer won't work as a camper either. It's time to sell it.

Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents the obscure cultural reference. Sunday breakdown! Custom recommends that at this Anglo-Saxon, all right, big lunch, you, quote, put the big pot in the little pot and fry the skillet, unquote. Then, quote, spread yourself, unquote.

In days gone by, feasts of this kind were eaten at, quote, all-day meeting and dinner on the ground, unquote, which is actually a religious gathering held out of doors menu. quote, which is actually a religious gathering held out of doors. Menu, fresh orchard fruit, turnip greens, fried turkey breasts, Dixie brown beans, hot buttered biscuits, grits, yam, fluff, poke salad, fried pies, and black joe, that's small black coffee. The recipes for all of these dishes may be found by consulting the index. But now, bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he only eats food prepared in hovercraft? I do. I do. Very well, Judge Hodgmanman it's the hot new trend jesse it is i read about it in vice i almost called you jail if bessie thorn just then

but because because i because i'm a podcast semi-professional i called myself at the last second well it's a funny coincidence that's actually what my mom used to call me when I was a baby. Jailiff Bessie? Yeah. At the time, it had no secondary meaning as it has now because podcasting had yet to be invented. Well, your mom sees the future. Yeah, that's true. I should have mentioned right off the top that my mom is a clairvoyant. Sometimes she doesn't quite understand what she's seeing. And how could she? Because you can't even see podcasts. Yeah, that's podcasts yeah they're they're the least visible of all the media and becoming increasingly so every day oh but i see that dale and sean are still standing dale and sean you may be seated for

an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors can either of you name the cultural reference that i made as i entered the courtroom or identify it, I should say? Well, the case is being brought by Dale, so I'll ask Dale first. I cannot. Sean? Nor can I. All right. Now I know which gender you guys are because it was anybody's guess.

It was anybody's guess. This is a spousal dispute between Dale and Sean, and it seemed like it could go either way been republished by the University of Mississippi, Ole Miss, where my friend John T. Edge has the greatest job in the world. He is a tenured professor in Southern Foodways at Ole Miss. Anyway, Maryland's Louisiana Cookery, I love it for its recipe for owls and blackbirds. You might love it, Dale, because it mentions something that you make. Yes. Which is? Fried pie. Yam fluff, right? You're a yam fluff? No, fried pies. Fried pies is what you cookbook, and this came from the appendix.

It's a recipe for a Sunday breakdown, or I should say the menu for a Sunday breakdown, which is actually a religious gathering held out of doors. I did go to the index because this book, which I've only ever found two copies of in used bookstores, is now available electronically online using a popular internet service, which I will not buzz market at this time, but anyone who does a little bit of their research and wants to buy it for a very reasonable price can get this amazing scrolling PDF that I have now of Louisiana Cookery. And boy, I could read this thing all day long. But what's interesting is that it does, r fried pies are in the index, but the recipe does not appear in the book. So it is a total mystery, as it is, I think, to most of our listeners who don't know what you're talking about. So Dale, you had attempted

to renovate a food truck in order to sell fried pies. What is a fried pie? Basically, it's like a little hand pie. It's a circle of pie dough with filling inside, traditionally fruit, but you can put anything inside and then it's crim a little hand pie. It's a circle of pie dough with filling inside, traditionally fruit, but you can put anything inside and then it's crimped shut and either skillet or deep fried. Yeah, like the old time, the apple pies they used to have at a very popular chain of burger restaurants called McDonald's. That's correct. Can I ask you a question? Are you sure you're not just talking about empanadas? They are very similar to empanadas. Are you sure you're not just talking about pasties?

They are also very similar to pasties. It's a deep-fried, delicious, savory food thing. Correct. Or sweet. Or sweet that exists in many cultures, including... Is this a Southern thing in particular? I figure it is, because it came out of, I found it in Louisiana cookery. It is. It's primarily a Southern thing. I think, you know, that popular food chain that you mentioned sort of popularized it in some way along roadside stands along America, but it certainly originated in the South. And most people outside of the South don't know what you mean when you say fried pies.

So when you say fried pies, like you say fried pies like what are some of what what are some of the things that go into the fried pies that you make well traditionally around here apple and peach are pretty much the the the mainstays of fried pies but i put lots of different things into them do you do you ever do turtle eggs in a puff? I have not as yet. From page 189 of Maryland's Louisiana Cookery? No, I'm going to get that. I'm going to give you this recipe for free. Anybody who's listening who makes this and sends me a picture,

actually don't. Don't do that because I don't trust any of you to source turtle eggs responsibly. Mash the boiled yolks of turtle or other eggs into a paste. Add the beaten white of several hen eggs. That's your traditional chicken eggs. Roll into a ball and sprinkle with flour. Fry in deep fat for five minutes. Serve hot.

That's like a deep fried deviled egg. Whoa. All right. That's a new, that's a new business and maybe a new t-shirt Maryland and John Hodgman's famous deep fried deviled eggs. Look for us at state fairs anywhere. Guys, I would talk to you about fried pies all day long if I could, because it combines one of my favorite things fried. Don't really give a hoot about

pies. But you have some dumb dispute that you want to talk about. Dale, what's the problem? Well, yeah, basically I purchased a food trailer that was sort of operational when I bought it. I knew there would be some work that needed to be done to it. And for the past year and a half, I've been working on renovating it. About a month ago, I sort of finally came to terms with what I had been realizing for a bit, which was that this trailer is just not really going to fit my needs, mainly because it's too small. And so... You can't fit a pie fryer in there. You can fit a pie fryer in there, but you can't fit everything else you need around the pie fryer. Apples. Yeah. Right. Mostly just safety equipment. And, um, yeah, it's just, it's just too small. Um, and I,

I finally realized and admitted that. And so basically, then the two options are to sell the trailer or the option that I came up with that I think is much more fun, which would be to convert it into a little camper that Sean and I could use to travel and go on adventures. So are you are you giving up on the business? Are you selling the trailer and giving up and you or you want to go camping to escape your creditors? Or what are you doing? I'm currently operating from a little stand. I don't have a food trailer right now.

And so the food trailer was sort of me expanding. I'm going to get another trailer regardless. The question is just what to do with this current, unusable, sad little trailer. Okay. And real quick question before I what to do with this current, unusable, sad little trailer. Okay. And real quick question before I turn to Sean. Dale, if you're making a pie and it has a hole in it, what do you do with the pie? Is this such a question? Jailiff Bessie, maybe you know.

Maybe you know the answer. If you have a pie and it has a hole in it, what do you do with that hole? Oh, you shut your pie hole. Yeah. I appreciate that Bailiff Jesse gave you the space to give that punchline or maybe decided to go for a walk about 10 minutes ago when he got tired of hearing my pie talk. Honestly, I was thinking call it a donut,

but then you rephrased, what do you do with the hole? That's true. That's true. That's true. From now on, in the lingo of Judge Sean Hodgman, anyone who doesn't shut their pie hole fast enough is called a donut for the rest of the episode. All right, Sean. Yes. You've heard and lived this whole thing.

You guys are married. How long have you guys been married? Over two years now. Like two years and two months. And how long has Dale been in the fried pies business? I think a year and a half. Two years. Two years.

And she's been renovating this pie truck for a year and a half. And she's finally giving up. And now she wants to turn it into a camping trailer. And you say this far far no further why well mostly because i'm just kind of uh i'm not i'm i'm tallish six one it's not huge i'm not like a monster but i'm tall and this trailer is kind of small it's it's um eight eight by six eight by four four by eight so it's like laying on a piece of plywood basically this is not the most comfortable size for a person with long legs and um i think it'd be um kind of a torment to camp in this little trailer you don't want to go camping in the in in the hills of

eastern tennessee in a stripped food truck for some reason yeah Yeah, I might be crazy. It seems like you could easily sell this trailer, the old trailer, and buy a decent machine made for camping, like an old camper, for the same price. I don't understand. What is the priority in your lives, guys, to go camping or sell pies? What's coming first? What do you think should your lives, guys, to go camping or sell pies? What's coming first? What do you think should come first, Sean? Going camping or selling pies? I'm always against sleeping near the ground.

I think fried pies is the way to go. What are you concerned about, snakes? No, just uncomfortableness. You know that snakes love pies. You know what? I'm right there with you. My top two concerns would be number one, snakes. Number two, uncomfortness.

Well, if I could. You could. Oh, thank you. I don't think it's really mutually exclusive. This isn't a choice between getting another food trailer. No, you're right. It's not mutually exclusive.

You're right. It would be very uncomfortness to believe on a bed of snakes that's true it's also true that this isn't a question of either have a camper or have a food trailer i'm going to get another food trailer regardless this is just what to do with this this particular failed food trailer that we have sitting around. Let's go back a second here. So a year and a half ago, you picked up this food truck.

Is it a trailer or is it a vehicle? It's a trailer. Okay, so you drag it behind some other vehicle that you own, presumably? Yes. Why did you make this horrible mistake and buy a trailer that was too small for your tiny pie business? Well, it was partially just my fault, lack of experience and understanding of what it entailed.

But also, the rules in Knoxville surrounding mobile food have recently changed because we've gotten a lot more food trucks. And so the city's been paying a lot more attention. And the big thing is I knew that I needed a hood, but I didn't know that I needed this specific thing, a fire suppression system, which is basically like a fire extinguisher that goes in the hood. And there's a big-

So people understand the hood is the ventilation system above the deep fryer and the cooking mechanism. Correct. And so you need to have an auto extinguisher that just lives up there. So if you pull the ripcord and the whole thing gets drenched. Pretty much. Yeah. It's a fun prank to pull on people who run food trucks from time to time.

Right. Bypass the system. Yeah. So basically, there's a big box of those chemicals that get drenched when you pull that ripcord. And that box of chemicals was much larger than I anticipated for the size of the food truck. And as I was putting in more and more of the equipment, I was already realizing it was going to be quite tight. And then when I had the installation person come in, he basically said, there's just no room to even put this box of chemicals in the truck. And it was at that point, I sort of realized that even if I could fit

everything into it, it just wasn't going to be a very comfortable place. Yeah. At some point, I'm going to need to ask you, why Dale? Why pies? Why now? The big mission statement for why you're doing this whole thing. And how much money did you spend on the trailer and tearing out all the stuff to realize it wasn't going to work? Roughly $7,300. And did you take that out of your savings? I did a Kickstarter campaign, which is why I definitely need to continue and have a food truck,

because people did give me money with the understanding that I would have a food trailer with it. Oh, you sent a video in as evidence of this thing being so small, and it said KS Trailer Tour. I was like, who's KS? That's Kickstarter. That was a video you made for the Kickstarter. It was an update for the Kickstarter. Okay. So how much money did you go?

So you went to all your friends and relations on the Internet saying, I need $7,500 or whatever to tear out all the stuff in this trailer and then throw it away because it's not good enough? I asked for $3,500 and I was given $5,000 and then I put some additional money of my own. So that's an interesting thing. So the project was funded, you got the money, you did what you said you were going to do with it, which was tear apart a trailer, but then, but then the trailer is no longer useful. So now you're five grand in the hole to strangers or internet pals. Yeah. And honestly, if I hadn't done the Kickstarter, um, at this, I might try to think of other ways to sell my pies than a food trailer. But because I did, you know, take a lot of money from my friends and family

and strangers, I feel like I do need to come through with a food trailer. Well, since that's your first obligation, I mean, I don't know even how that would work. You know, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the ethics of Kickstarter, but if I were a donor and I found out that the project you were working on just kind of fell apart because you had made a miscalculation, I'm not sure that I would want my $25 back or anything. Do you know what I mean? I would just feel like, well, I made an investment and it didn't go. Well, I notified all of the donors and also gave them the option of requesting a refund

and letting them know that I still did have plans to move forward with the food trailer. It would just take a little bit longer to finish. And so far, no one's asked for their money back. Yeah, but you just set a terrible precedent. I gotta say, Dale, you're very nice, but you're gonna get eaten alive in the fried pie biz. You can't be offering money back.

I kind of didn't think anyone would take me up on it. Yeah. They're all very nice, aren't they? So don't you feel then that it's your obligation to your investors to, to first priority, make good as quickly as possible on the promise of a food trailer. Yeah.

And like I said, the, what happens, so how does, so how does camping help with that? Oh, it doesn't. I just,

I think that what happens to this failed trailer doesn't really have much bearing on the future of a new trailer. That's going to happen regardless. Sean, do you want to ever jump in here and make an argument? Because I'm ready to go. I would love to. And this is actually when the split happens with us. I mean, I think that if we do sell this old trailer that is kind of worthless right now,

I mean, whatever money we get back, and it won't be what you put into it, it won't be $5,000 even, I would say. But any money helps to go toward a new trailer or to renovate a new trailer um so yeah that's basically why i'm kind of a practical thinker i think this stuff i have no emotions involved in this i didn't work on it i didn't you know sweat and bleed over it i'm not sure if you've bled over it but uh i just have no emotional involvement in this trailer. You don't like pies. You don't dislike pies.

Just a totally neutral six foot one snake hating monster. Who likes the idea of camping more than the actuality of camping? Can I ask what this trailer would be worth on the resale market, roughly speaking? I would think you can get probably $3,000 just as a trailer, just as a, you know, take the box off the top and it's just a flatbed trailer, probably $3,000. It's really nice. It's a nice trailer. $3,000.

Dale, do you disagree? Somewhere around there. Dale, do you disagree? Somewhere around there. And that's sort of why I hate to sell it, because the amount of money I spent getting it up and running still makes it a not operational food trailer, which isn't really useful to most people. So the people who would buy it would mostly just probably be using it for hauling or something. So, yeah. But also, here's one thing. In its first lifetime,

it was a barbecue trailer. So the guy who owned it had a barbecue business. He could smoke meat on the back of this thing. So one option is to find a barbecue entrepreneur and sell it to that sucker.

Well, I think you just dictated the greatest Craigslist ad of all time. Hey, suckers, I took a good barbecue trailer and destroyed it. You want to buy it from me? For too much money. Yeah. But it would totally work. It'd be fine code-wise for a barbecue trailer. It'd be perfect.

If you didn't cook inside of it, there would be a lot more room inside. So that is true. It could be a barbecue trailer it'd be perfect if you didn't cook inside of it there would be a lot more room inside so that is true it could be a barbecue chain so so dale how what kind what do you have your eye on a new on a new pie mobile yeah i've been talking with um i've been looking online i haven't really found any used trailers that would fit again because Knoxville's food laws are pretty stringent, more stringent than a lot of other places. They're a cloning. Yes, you could even say that. But I have been talking to some people who make custom food trucks. afford um with a loan um a a pre-fabricated or not you know a custom-built food truck from for me which would be better how much how much money about fifteen thousand dollars one five thousand dollars and you can't at this at this point go back to kickstarter can you

i mean i suppose i could but i certainly don't want to it would be embarrassing and it would be embarrassing and almost certain to fail. But that means it's only $12,000 if you sell your old trailer. I think Sean makes an interesting point. Why wouldn't you want to cut your losses, sell the old trailer for whatever you can get, and apply that to the cost of the new trailer? I certainly see that point, which is one of the reasons I wanted to bring this case before you, because I do understand his point of view. I guess my idea with that is,

you know, if I'm going to be taking out a loan, and one that I can afford a payment on a $15,000 loan for a new trailer, if I'm going to go that route, it seems, I don't know, to me to sell this trailer that I've put so much work into, a lot of money to and then turn around and just straight up lose all of that time and money. And really, you know, I really cared about this. And I really had big dreams for this little trailer, and failed and that's okay I made some mistakes and I understand that but I think to then transform this trailer into a place that is super fun and make it a project that's just about fun and that we could go on adventures with it seems to me like it would be one sort of a transformative experience. And then

having this thing that we made together and can take on trips and stuff together is invaluable. Dale, can I ask, do you remember the part of business school where you studied sunk costs? Yes, I do. Yep. I don't know what sunk costs are. What are they? Sunk costs is money that has already been spent. You know the idea of good money chasing bad? Yeah. So the question is whether if you've already spent money, it makes you more likely to spend further money because you feel like you're already invested in it, right? Right.

But if that money is not benefiting you, if it's not getting you any further into the future, then it's not worth spending more money on. I totally agree with that. That's why I decided to not move further with this trailer. By the way, I have a second career as the ultimate explainer of economic theories. That is probably the most coherent explanation that anyone has ever heard of any abstract concept. Jesse, I think you're going to take over for that dude who's on that TV show, The Profit, who goes in and fix failing businesses.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to come in with my borderline nonsense spewing of half-remembered business concepts. You're going to be focusing just on podcast networks, though. You're going to help all these people create these successful podcast businesses, and then you guys will all compete all of us out of the market all together. Yeah, exactly. How about that? Yeah. Sorry. Were you guys still there? Hello. Sean, what do you do for a living? I am a photographer. Good boy. Let me ask you these

questions. Where are you selling these pies? How much does a pie cost? And what's your top seller? pie cost and uh and what's your top seller and then does this support you and your husband such that you can take it make a camper instead of making a business okay i'll try to remember all those questions the first one so where we'll do it together so i make the pies at a restaurant that is kind enough to let me use their space. Sean and I are also working. We bought a building, and we're building a commissary kitchen for me in there, so I will have my own kitchen soon. Okay.

I sell them at the local farmer's market at festivals and events, and I do a good amount of catering. Does it support us? Not fully. I would say Sean's income is probably two thirds of our income. Mine's probably about a third, but I'm not, yeah, I'm certainly contributing, um, to the household. Sure. How much the pies cost?

$3 a pie. Unless you buy a hundred. Unless you buy a hundred, then you get a 10% discount. $2 a pie. Unless you buy 100. Unless you buy 100, then you get a 10% discount. $2.99. God, I would love to have the lifestyle where I'm just like, can I get 100 pies, please? No, the lifestyle you want is, hi, it's Dale. Oh, hey, it's Jesse. Another 100.

The usual. You know, the pies are great until about 60. And then because you guys are so charming because you, you guys, the pies are so fried. I am letting you guys buzz market all over my podcast, but even I have to now start pulling back the reins a little bit on this, on this, uh,

commercialism gallop. Uh, can, can, can you, you guys share fun. You guys share funds, obviously, right? You have a single bank account? You have a bank account for the business? We each have our shared bank account, and we have separate business bank accounts. Right. Okay. $15,000 for the new mobile food

truck and the commissary kitchen, that can't be free uh these are some big investments can can you can you handle them yeah i believe we can i i what i wonder here is if you feel like if you hadn't done this kickstarter you wouldn't buy a food truck then why don't you give the people their money back, take the loss, and not buy a food truck? Well, that's a good point. I guess, you know, maybe that was my initial feeling when I realized that this particular food truck wasn't going to work, that I felt like I wish I just hadn't done that and just sell it on my kitchen. But upon thinking about it further, I do still do a lot of events where having a food truck will really, really help. And so I do feel like it is the right thing to move forward with that plan.

How much do you think it's going to improve your business to have that food truck out there? Well, that's actually one of the things that is a little bit of an unknown. the things that is a little bit of an unknown, um, because it will certainly, you know, let me go more places, you know, right now when I go to events, I sort of just have to guess how many pies I need to bring. I don't want to bring so many that I waste a ton, but I don't want to bring so few that I sell out. So that's kind of a hard question to answer, honestly. That's true. Most events that they'll go to, um, either she bagpipes and they're wasted and wastes her time making them, or she'll sell out in the first hour, and so she misses opportunities to make more money. Dale, is it really worth $3,000 to you to have your own camper trailer?

That is not a very good camper trailer from what I hear. See, I disagree. I think it'll be a very good camper trailer. Yeah, well, wait a minute. If you're going to take this out camping, this would be a good time for people to go over to our website, MaximumFun.org, and look under shows for judge john hodgman you'll find this episode and you'll find the the the the sad kickstarter update video that dale submitted

when she still thought that this poor thing had a chance and you'll see at here is a fairly small stainless steel lined room with a window in it. How are you going to want to sleep in that thing? You're going to have to do some updates to that too, right? Oh, it's already been updated from that. There's tiles. You put in like a bed and shag carpeting and a lava lamp? I would like to. You painted a mural on the side?

I may have two to three feet longer, maybe. Well, that's kind of the idea is right now it's got, you know, it's got, you know, walls. It's got tiled floors. It has a sink in it. So there's running water. There's a fan in it for ventilation. There's a fan in it for ventilation. There's a window in it. So the idea would be to make sort of like a folding foam mattress that could be folded up to be sort of a little chair.

And then when it's time to sleep, you can unfold it and sleep on the floor there. You know they have special trailers just for sleeping in. Thank you. I know, but it's not as fun if you didn't make them yourself. And again, we disagree on that point. I think it's just as fun to, you know, but it's not as fun if you didn't make them yourself. And again, we disagree on that point. I think it's just as fun to buy a camper that's meant for camping. Do you guys do a lot of camping? We don't do a ton of camping.

We do a lot of cabining. We go to cabins quite often. Right. And hoteling. Do you do any hoteling? That's my favorite kind of camping. We do some hoteling. Do you do any hoteling? That's my favorite kind of camping. Maybe some hoteling here and there. Where would you go? Where would you go, Dale?

If you were going to take out your trailer, what would be number one top spot? Rocky top. Is that a place or just a song? Well, we're about 45 minutes from the Smoky Mountains. There's a lot of great places to camp in there. We also love going to hot Springs, North Carolina. And we have, we just have a bunch of friends in North Carolina, West Virginia. There's lots of spots we could go and bring this little trailer. Dollywood? Is that on the docket? I don't know that they allow you to camp in Dollywood, but we could camp nearby.

It's a huge parking lot. I'm sure they would let you camp in the parking lot. I definitely recommend if it's possible. Sean, if I find in your favor, what do you want me to order? That she liquidate this trailer and then move on with her life? That's super reasonable to me. I think that's, yeah, move on, take the money, put it to good use. I'm in favor of a new trailer, a new food trailer, obviously. So I think that'd be a really prudent way to go forward. This is, is this your way of sabotaging your wife's business in some way?

Yeah, it's, it's a long con. It takes me, it's taken me a year and a half to, uh, to, uh, slowly, but surely shrink the walls and the, uh, the old food truck. No, I really want an inch per month. And I'm able to not meet code. Very handy. Sure, sure. Seamless work.

No, I want it to succeed. I love pies. I mean, I'm on board. I love it all. But I just want it to be responsible financially because we do share. This is a part of our income as well. But saying that, I do understand that it's her money and it's it's her business it's her money she's made this money um and um i don't want to you know well right but but if if if you if you take the loss in the business dale and then you spend whatever it is to get the to get this uh trailer into

into camping mode to to your satisfaction i doubt that sean will ever into camping mode to your satisfaction. I doubt that Sean will ever be satisfied, but to your satisfaction at least. That money can't come out of your business account. That's got to come out of the joint account, right? That's right. It wouldn't take much money at all to make this trailer into a suitable camper. And then the other side of it is if or make this trailer into a suitable camper. And then, you know, the other side of it is, is if we make this, which I believe, um, we have the capacity to make this into a super cute, uh,

little camper. Um, obviously I, the, the food trailer, I didn't totally complete, but I did take it from a state that was not super great and made it to where it was almost super great. So I do think with this. You mean Kentucky? Is that the state you took it from that was not super great? That's Sean's hometown, so you should be careful. I don't know why.

I don't even know why I picked Kentucky. Where are you from in Kentucky? A small town called Cave City near Mammoth Cave National Park. Oh, cool. I'd love to live in Cave City. Are youoth Cave National Park. Oh, cool. I'd love to live in Cave City. Are you kidding me? That's great. Pretty exciting.

Dale, where are you from originally? I'm originally from just outside Chicago. Do you have a nice carpet bag? Yeah. It's really cute. You deliver your pies in a carpet bag, do you? Your authentic Southern fried pies? I really should.

And she doesn't wear shoes when she delivers them. Nice touch. I'm just being mean. Dale, you understand that there are two options here. One that is sort of sober and responsible, and the other which is whimsical and delightful, but is less sober and responsible. spiteful, but is less sober and responsible. Tell me, make one final argument for whimsy over responsibility when it comes to camping and fried pies. Sure. I just wanted to make one more quick note, which is that if we did convert this into a camper and decided that we weren't using it enough or that Sean was too tall for it, I think we could

make more money on it being a cute converted camper. If we tried to sell that on Craigslist, then we could if it was a half-finished crappy food truck. But that's what it is. It's a half-finished crappy food truck. If you take that thing down to Dollywood or whatever, you're going to be trying to sleep there, and people are going to be knocking on the windows wanting a waffle cone.

They're not going to know. Yeah, but just a little painting, um, some curtains, you know, taking out the hood, we can make it look like a very cute, uh, little food truck that I think, um, we could trick a hipster into buying. Now, now, well, look, I love, I love to play trick the hipster. Wait, are you, are you talking about doing a different reno to to to upscale it as a food as a food truck oh i'm sorry did i say food truck i mean i'm at camper okay right okay okay sorry um so but in general my argument is just that you know our our basic needs are being met um we're not you know strapped for cash cash. If I had took out this loan, it, you know,

it could make things tighter in terms of going out to eat and restaurants and things like that. It's not going to ruin us financially. So I believe that once, you know, all of your basic needs are being met, not all decisions should be financial or practical. And if, because if they were, we would never have any fun. Like going on a vacation is not practical. No one would ever, ever go on a vacation. No one would ever go see judge John Hodgman when he's out on tour.

If you always just made practical decisions and I feel like going to see, going to see me on tour is not anyone's idea of a vacation. That, that, that is, that is a risk that is an obligation yeah a sober obligation that's a moral thing yeah you're right i'm so sorry no i feel you go on yeah i just feel like we're in a place where you know aside from um these business investments that we're making we have very few costs in our life, very little debt in our life. And this is just something that for me personally would take,

you know, something that was sort of a hard experience giving up the idea of this particular food trailer and making it something really fun. And I know that Sean is skeptical about it. But I think once he, you know, came out with me and helped me fix up this little food trailer, and we went on a few trips, I think he'd really, really enjoy it. But I think once he, you know, came out with me and helped me fix up this little food trailer and we went on a few trips, I think he'd really, really enjoy it. Okay, I think I've heard everything I need to. I am now going to go into my tiny little one-man tent camper to make my decision. I'll be back in a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Have you ever gone on Craigslist and looked at what $3,000 will buy you in the way of a camper trailer? Not really.

I have. I'm a sexist. Can you tell me a little bit about what you found, Sean? For around $3,000, you can get a really cute, I would say cute, cozy Shasta trailer. That type of old 1960s. I'm sure it's a little dirty. I'm sure it probably has some mold. sure it's a little dirty i'm sure it's probably some mold but if we're going to renovate a camper anyway um it also has a kitchenette and the bed and some shelving and you know the stuff you would

want to you can um put your quilts in there and built in you know you buy that for three thousand dollars and it's got all that already um and also i will say that i'm not too i'm not very handy so the idea of me trying to make any trailer into any other kind of trailer is terrifying, really. I mean, Dale, I'm just throwing it out there. That's all I'm saying. Point taken. Dale, how do you feel about your chances in the case? I don't know.

I don't feel like I got to, or I don't feel like I talked about how amazing this trailer would be. I've got some grand plans for how great it would be as a camper. I think I've got some specific ideas that would make it really cool. I should have shared those, but I don't know. We'll see. Sean, how are you feeling about your chances in the case? You know, actually pretty good. I think it's a pretty sensible argument. And so I think, yeah, why not?

Let's go for it. Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say when we come back in just a minute. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org, and they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast

and this network, boy, oh, boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with made-in pots and pans? Really? What's an example?

The braised short ribs. They're made in, made in. The Rohan duck. Made in, made in. Riders of Rohan. Duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made in, made in.

Made in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town?

Just buy it online. This is professional grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real-life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching.

So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world, and you get to hear this sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyper-academic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners. Right now, get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now.

Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners, at babbel.com slash hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash hodgman, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the court. Thank you, J.L. If Bessie may be seated, Dale and Sean. Yeah, I appreciate, first of all, I have a lot of sympathy for Dale in this case because she really did enter this courtroom not appreciating this court's profound bias of camping, against camping, I should say. The idea of it sounds miserable, and the idea of camping in what once was a food truck makes me feel even worse about the idea of going out into the woods.

And I'm looking now at your beautiful little designs for the food truck, and I can see how you could make it lovely, Dale. And I can also see why it would be therapeutic for you to go through the process, since you've devoted so much time to the food truck, which looks so adorable now with the name of your business on the side of it, that rather than just sell it to some miserable jerk who's going to turn it into a deep fried hamburger stand or whatever it is, it's coming next in its fate, to turn it into something beautiful and lovely that you and your very charming and over tall husband can enjoy together. And that would be, I think that that would be therapeutic and you would have fun even,

even, even in, in the outdoors, which you can see, it's very hard for me even to say that word. So I do feel a tremendous amount of sympathy, both for the odds that you faced, even bringing this idea into my courtroom. But also given the time and labor that you've already poured into this thing and wanting to get something out of it besides money. Boy, you know, I got to say, if anyone here,

listen, everyone within the sound of my voice, move immediately to Knoxville, Tennessee, because it looks like the one thing you don't need to live well there is money. I don't know how. It's got to be the cheapest place in the world to live or you guys, or you guys inherited a house and you discovered the attic was full of gold or something. But I don't know how, how a fried pie slash photographer couple can be, can be facing the prospect of $15,000 of debt and not be freaking out and wanting to go. I like, I love it.

I love what you guys are doing with your lives. And I absolutely agree with you, Dale, that life is for living and not having a vacation and not having whimsy is not a life well lived. And I'm glad that you found a place in the world and a person in your life with whom to enjoy whimsy as much as work and toil as the rest of us in the northern cities of Chicago and New York City have to face. And I appreciate that. I'm glad you went down to the American South and decided to fry up some pies and sell them. It seems like a delightful life, and I want your business to succeed. And because I want your business to succeed, I cannot find in your favor.

And the reason is this. You're entering a business that is a hard business, right? Food service. I've been around it enough to know that it's very variable and it's very contingent upon a lot of things that you can't control and that every investment could be lost at any moment. Obviously you know that it's a business that as long as you live outside of Knoxville, Tennessee, you can go out of business pretty fast in it.

And I know that that I know that your town is clogged with food trucks now, but it may be that the demand for beautiful handcrafted fried pies goes down in the future. goes down in the future. And if you had just spent a bunch of money to make this thing go, to make this food truck or this trailer, I should say, as beautiful as it is, and by the way, it is beautiful. If you just spend all your own money that way in your business, and you were unwilling to take the loss, I would understand that. But you have investors. Even though Kickstarter is kind of like the softest core investing that there is. And none of those $25 dilettantes are really going to give you a hard time if you end up not making good. I think that if you really want this business to succeed,

to a certain degree, you need to dial a little bit away from the whimsy and a little bit more towards the business at hand. Yes, you could make this thing into a beautiful camping trailer, I have no doubt. And you may have the funds to do it. But what you don't have necessarily, if you want your fried pie business to do this, is the time. You can't make something beautiful out of everything unless you just want to be a hobbyist. And if that's what you want, that's fine. If you can afford to just be a hobbyist in the fried pie business, then make a trailer, make a thing, do a thing, put a bird on everything.

Do you know what I mean? But, you know, I think looking at the pictures of the pies that you've sent, and not to buzz market so much, but I like, I think fried, you know, everyone is sad that McDonald's doesn't deep fry those apple pies anymore. I think the fried pies are ready to come back. I think you could make a go of this. I think that you could start, you know, a real good business down there in the fried pie. And I agree with you that having a mobile platform is probably going to be a way for you to do a little bit better. And I think that's why you decided to make that move, which was to take it a little bit more seriously. And I don't think that you need to take it a lot a bit more seriously,

but I do think you need to take it seriously enough that when you realize that you've made a miscalculation, you don't follow sunk cost with good money, and instead honor the fact that people gave you money to get one of those trucks, sell the thing you made. I think that looking at it right now, I think, I think it would not be long before it sold. Appreciate that not everything in your business has an emotion. You know what I mean? Like that thing isn't going to cry when you sell it. It's a thing. And, and sometimes when you're running a business, you have to realize these are just things. To sell that and take that money and put it into a bigger, better food trailer that is going to help your business to thrive. And think a little

bit less about weekends away and think a little bit more about pushing out those pies and those pies in people's hands. And I think this is the test. I mean, if you want to make this a business and I'm not, look, what, what business have I ever run? All I've ever done is, is, is,

is, is go out there and, and stand up on a stage and say a few dumb words together until someone laughs and then take their money. That's about as, as, as you know, if I,

and I can't even make that profitable all the time. Cause I'm always getting David Reese to come with me and flying him all around the country because I want to have fun too. I've lost so much money to whimsy, Dale. Maybe I'm being a little overcorrective here. If it weren't for certain computer companies, I'd be tens and tens and tens of thousands of dollars in debt and my family would be impoverished because I want to live this way today. Do you know what I mean? So I may be a little bit over corrective and projecting a little bit on you, but I think my advice and my order is this. If you want to be, if you want to be making fried pies,

you have a little bit of an obligation, even to those Kickstarter investors, to see this thing through and not get distracted by another project, no matter how glorious you can imagine. You can get another camper trailer for $3,000 or $1,800 or whatever, but not that you don't deserve a vacation or happiness. That's just me. I don't deserve happiness, but you do. But those are weekends where you could be out selling pies. So I think that the decision you're making is, am I going to am I going to be a pie truck salesperson or is this an art project that has seen its time and now it's time to move on? And if you decide that you want to sell pies, I think I think you have an obligation to either return that money to those folks or to sell that thing and buy a new truck

that's going to sell a lot of pies. And I'm going to get you started however you decide to go in your life. I'm going to get you started right now with something that you're going to enjoy very much putting on the menu. This is after owls and blackbirds, my favorite recipe from Maryland's Louisiana cookery. And it's squirrel head pot pie. And here it is. Write this down. Boil 10 squirrel heads until tender in just enough water to cover. I'm just going to add a note here. Don't use too much water. Make pie crust and lime casserole. Place a layer of heads and some juice. I love that sentence. Cause just when you think it can't get more disgusting, you get to heads and you're like,

I'm ready to vomit. And then, and some juice dot with butter and sprinkle with salt and pepper, make another layer of heads, juice, and more pie crust strips cook in oven for one half hour serves six. Bring that to the farmer's market, won't you? Sure.

Tell them John Hodgman sent you. And you're going to make a lot of money out of that brand new food truck or not. Maybe don't do that. But that is my ruling all the same. Now I'm going to go back into my chambers and puzzle over why there is no mention in this recipe of de-skulling these heads, because I don't know where those fit in.

But in the meantime, I find in the favor of Sean, this is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the court. Dale, how are you feeling? I feel okay. I think the judge made some good points. And I definitely think with that squirrel head pot pie recipe, things are going to really pick up here. Sean, how about you?

How are you doing? Well, pretty good. I feel great about the verdict, but a little bit sad about the end note there, the summary that Judge John Hodgman gave. So it's fair to speak. Can I give you guys a search term? And again, this is something that you should build towards. Wait for the pie business to become a success. Teardrop trailer. Get yourself a nice teardrop. There are some premium trailers on Craigslist right now. Yeah. They're not cheap, though. I say you get – well, some of them are. You can get one for $3,000.

I found a few. Oh, okay. Here's my recommendation to you. You make this pie business a success by focusing on your work and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, all that stuff that Judge John Hodgman said. Then you reward yourself with a sweet teardrop trailer. And then you buy me a teardrop trailer and explain to me how to connect a trailer to my wife's station wagon. Dale, Sean, thank you so much for joining us on Judge John Hodgman. Hello, teachers and faculty.

This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with

Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. Remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try.

Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Ah, it'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. that's all done now. But I still deserve happiness by buying things I don't necessarily need.

And you know, I'm never going to take him into the woods because it grows. But you don't have to take him into the woods. That's what makes him so cool. You can sleep in him in the backyard or whatever. I'm going to take him into Prospect Park. Yes! Bravo!

Good old-fashioned Fridgwick Law Olmstead manicured park camping. I'm just going to go back and read a book in there. That's a good idea. What book are you going to read? Lucky Jim by Kingsley Amos? Right now I'm reading John Cleese's autobiography. It's lovely.

Yeah, I just interviewed him on stage. I know. I'm going to interview him in a hotel suite. Oh, you're going to... Well, he hugged me on stage, so who knows what he's going to do in a hotel suite. Are you suggesting that he might make out with you? Not with me, because my time is done.

I obviously didn't make the most of it. But bear in mind, you'll get this towards the end of the book. This is So Anyway by John Cleese, which is why I've been thinking, like, I've got to read this Lucky Jim. Because John Cleese talks about how it's his favorite book in the book, and I've never read it. But at the end of the book, he reveals, in a very casual way, that he is an avid collector of stuffed animals to this day. Wow. Make sure you make a point of asking him about that

and you will see a side of John Cleese you did not know existed. I'm keen to learn about that. Judge Hodgman, if folks want to get in their trailers and head out to meet you somewhere across this great nation, you got any tour dates? I do. You know, David Reese is joining me for my four final tour dates of the year.

And indeed, Jesse, for the foreseeable future, I'll be performing I Stole Your Dad in Burlington, Vermont, Lebanon, New Hampshire, Northampton, Massachusetts at the Academy of Music, and then in Hartford, the capital of Connecticut. These will all be happening November 19, 20, 21, and 22, respectively. All the details, of course, johnhodgman.com slash tour. And as a special bonus to those of you joining us in Connecticut,

you will also get to see and perhaps even meet Jonathan Fresh Bananas here, Niederer from Maine, Maine. He's driving down to introduce us on stage, and he might even do a little fresh banana routine right there on stage. It's going to be a good time. I hope you all will come out. I will be touring again in the future. I have a new show that I'm working on, but that won't be for probably another year. So I hope you come out and say hello this time. I'm excited that you're traveling with the great David Reese, the man behind the Taylor Swift Apex Twin mashup album that's taking the Internet by storm. Yeah.

This guy. Is there anything he can't do, Jesse? I don't know. I mean, he's got a brilliant television program. He's created a hilarious comic strip. He's the world's foremost expert on pencil sharpening. He's super good at making paper airplanes. He's a

well-known money pit. I think you mean party hole. Yeah. Our thanks this week to Joe Pritchard, who named this week's episode of the program. Thanks, John.

If you want to name a future episode of the program, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, you can also join us in the MaximumFun.org Facebook group, which is at Facebook.com slash MaximumFun.org, and on Reddit in the Maximum Fun group, which is MaximumFun.reddit.com. You can also follow John and I on Twitter. John is at Hodgman.

I am at Jesse Thorne. The program produced by Julia Smith, edited by Mark McConville. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Court is adorned.