Judge John Hodgman - Case Sera, Sera

Episode Date: December 14, 2022

Gillian brings the case against her friend, Courtney. Sometimes Gillian will say that something was “meant to be.” Courtney bristles at this idea. Gillian wants Courtney to just let her believe what she wants. But Courtney doesn’t think that Gillian truly believes in destiny! Who’s right? Who’s wrong?Thank you to Twitter User @WeHaveSnacks for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow us on Twitter for naming opportunities: @JesseThorn & @Hodgman. Or keep track using the Twitter hashtag #JJHoCaseNames.Make sure to check out our West Coast tour dates at bit.ly/JJHOWEST! Tickets for our Los Angeles show go on sale FRIDAY! And if you are in any of the cities on our route and have a dispute, please submit it at maximumfun.org/jjho! 

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, case sera sera. Jillian brings the case against her friend Courtney. Sometimes Jillian will say that something was meant to be. Courtney bristles at this idea. Jillian wants Courtney to just let her believe what she wants. Courtney doesn't think that Jillian truly believes in destiny. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. What is, is, and what might have been could never have existed. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Jillian and Courtney, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth,

the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? Yes. Yes. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he is destined to make a bad one? Yes, absolutely. You may proceed. Destined to make a real one, that's for sure. You're destined to be a real one, Judge Hodgman.

Someday the prophecy will come true. Until then, I remain completely fake. False Hodgman. Fake Internet Judge Hodgman is in the court. You may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors. Jillian, Courtney, can either of you name the piece of culture that I quoted directly as I entered this courtroom? Let's see.

Courtney, why don't you guess first? Okay. My guess is it is from the E.M. Forrester novel, Howard's End, specifically the chapter where they're listening to Beethoven and talking about panic and emptiness. Very specific. Yes. And absolutely correct. Well, I don't know.

We'll find out. That would be incredible. I love a very specific guest. What was it? The Beethoven section? Mm-hmm. And that's the big dog, right? Mm-hmm.

That's driving the family crazy. Yeah. That's what I figured. Jillian, what's your guess? I have no idea, but I prepared a guess. So here's my guess. It's Rainer Maria Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet. I love that specific guess too.

Someone very special in my life gave me that book once and I think I read it. And I hope they're not listening. Anyway, it was a very special gift. And because I don't think I actually ended up reading it or it was very long ago, that is not a correct guess. As specific and as grodany as your EM Forster guess, Courtney, was, that is not a correct guess. That means all guesses are wrong. I've done this one before. I don't care though, because I love him and I love this quote and it's very meaningful to me as this artist is. I was quoting the illustrator and author Edward Gorey. You know Edward Gorey, Jillian and Courtney? Yes. Yes. No, Courtney. Well, let me tell you something. Edward Gorey was this wonderfully weird, morbid, funny illustrator of books that kind of looked like uh they were for children but they

were mostly for weird tweens and adults and it was really one of my favorite and continues to be one of my favorite artists in the world you know he wrote these uncategorizable dreamlike illustrated books like the doubtful guest um and The Curious Sofa, plus a number, and I learned a new word, abacadarium. Do you know what that is, Jesse Thorne? I don't. That is a book or a,

you spell out the alphabet in it. Like A is for apple, B is for ball, C is for Charlie, D is for Delta, E is for echo. Now I'm moving into the nato-phonetic alphabet that's an abacadarium I think he did about five abacadaria with names like the fatal lozenge and the glorious nosebleed

maybe his most famous work of course is the gashly crumteenies or tinies I always said teenies but I think it must be tinies and it recounts the demise alphabetically of 26 Victorian children. And it's for Neville who died of

ennui. Yes, of course. But I mean, I love Neville and I love all of them. The way this thing starts is a true banger. A is for Amy who fell down the stairs. B is for Basil assaulted by bears. i think the works of edward gore really stand with the joy of sex and books that you find in your parents bookshelf

that blow your mind yeah i mean and i would say that if you want your child of age 10 and up i would say if you want your child to grow up to be smart and weird, um, uh, get them amphigory, which is, well, there are a couple of big, uh, big collections of, of his work amphigory and amphigory too. And you know, it's, it's dark humor, but not darker or, or funnier than the world itself. And another quote, uh, that he gave was my mission in life is to make everyone as an uneasy as possible. I think we should all be as uneasy as possible. I think we should all be as uneasy as possible because that is what the world is like. And both of those quotes

come from a book, a collection of interviews called Ascending Peculiarity, Edward Gorey on Edward Gorey, which I found one copy and I gave it to David Reese and now it's missing. Or no, he has it somewhere, but it's out of print. So go get it. Go to David Reese and now it's missing. Or no, he has it somewhere. But it's out of print. So go get it. Go get that chick. It's really, really smart and interesting. And of course, it speaks to our theme today, which is, is what is, is?

Or is you ain't my baby? No, it's that you, Jillian, believe that things happen for a reason. And you, Courtney, hate this. That's right. That's accurate. Jillian, you bring this case before me for justice. What is the justice that you see? I just want to be able to sometimes say that some things happen for a reason and have Courtney not scoff. Okay. And what do you mean by things happen for a reason? Tell me what you mean when something

is meant to be. Give me an example. So generally, this would be something that went wrong. And I'll later reflect and say, like, oh, this good thing happened to me. So therefore, you know, this bad thing that happened in the past was so that this would all kind of lead to this. All roads would lead to this moment. And this good thing could happen. Like what was a bad thing that happened that turned out to lead to a good thing, if I may ask? Sure. Well, like, for example...

For example, I accidentally locked myself in the closet with this microphone. But luckily, I get to make a podcast. For listeners at home, I can see both Jillian and Courtney using televisual conferencing technology. And Courtney is in a studio in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Is that correct? Roll Tide. That is correct. Jillian, you are in Lawrence, Kansas in a closet.

Yes. And I have now given you as much time as I could for you to come up with a specific example of something going wrong, but it turned out to be meant to be. Let's hear it. Yeah. Going wrong, but it turned out to be meant to be. Let's hear it. Yeah. So, you know, if I applied for a job in City A and didn't get it, and then, you know, here I was in City B and like I met a great friend at work and said like, oh, if I had never, if I had gotten that other job in City A, I would have never met this person. And so, you know, it kind of all makes sense. What alternate universe are you in where these cities have names like A and B? Did this actually happen or is this still a hypothetical?

No, that actually happened. All right. What were the cities? One city was Baltimore. City A was Baltimore. Yeah. City B? Kansas, Topeka.

Topeka, Kansas? Yes. And who was the friend Marsha oh I thought it was going to be Courtney I thought it was going to be cute and that's why you hate this so much because Courtney Jillian loves Marsha because they met by destiny

and you just met by chance that's exactly right how do you know each other Courtney so first I would note that Jillian herself is an eccentric cartoonist. So maybe this is fate upon fate upon fate. But I know Jillian through what I would consider a happy coincidence, which is that for one year, we overlapped in a legal fellowship that sort of vaulted us into the category of work soulmate slash best friend.

Oh, okay. So are you both attorneys? Yes. Yes. We are both clinical law professors who run domestic violence clinics. So we do the exact same thing. We just do it in different places. Well, thank you for doing those exact same things in both of those places. So how does Courtney express her displeasure when you say something was meant to be, Jillian? Well, in one example that I sent, the text example, she said, like, I hate that. But she'll like scoff or say like, ugh, or make fun of it or make a joke. You're in Kansas and Tuscaloosa.

Do I have a permission to give one y'all? From Courtney, yes. I don't have that liberty. You don't know. I know. And I shouldn't have done it anyway. You all, you both mostly, your friendship is over text? Yes.

So she scoffs at your text when you say that something was meant to be. Yes. Or on the phone, she scoffs. Or on the phone. Do you cop to scoffing, Courtney? I do. I do. I would say that there's sort of a spectrum of responses anywhere from ha-ha to I hate this. But I would say I'm often in the middle and will say ha-ha, and if she reads that scoffingly, so be it. Lots of people say ha ha when they mean I hate this.

So what is it you hate? Oh, all of it. Here, let's get specific again. Can you remember the first time or the first time you noticed that Jillian had this predestination fetish? Yes. So Jillian and I have been friends since 2014. And I think this first came up maybe two or three years ago. And to be honest, I thought it was a bit. And I actually kind of still think it's a bit, that this is sort of a running gag that we

have. And so maybe I'm wrong, but I do try to be a pretty attentive and attuned friend. And so when this sort of crept up into Jillian's lexicon, I sort of thought it was a funny new thing. So I would sort of scoff, but assuming that that was kind of the desired response. And only with sort of being served these pleadings for fake internet court has it come to light that maybe she means it. But I actually think the fact that she took me to fake internet court kind of buttresses my opinion that this is still a gag. So let me make sure I understand what you're saying. For a long time, and maybe including now, you believe that Jillian's faith in a ordered and ultimately benign universe is a joke that she's playing.

Yes. Jillian, is it a joke? It's not a joke. It's not a joke. There was a hitch in your voice, though. There was a hitch in your voice. There are times when I believe it more than others, and mostly I want to believe it. But it has a jokey vibe at times.

So I don't necessarily fault Courtney for thinking it was a jokey vibe at times. So I don't necessarily fault Courtney for thinking it was a joke, but I kind of just want her to come along with me to this land of pretend where we actually believe this and we can kind of like, you know, make sense of the world retrospectively. This fun slumberland dreamscape where we're not totally alone

and there is something and the universe cares about yes this aspirational stay against nihilism i would say courtney i'm receiving a message to ask you about star book uh-huh yes okay fabulous so so sort of as shorthand for all of this jillian got in the habit of instead of saying, oh, everything happened for a reason, it was meant to be, she will just send me an emoji of a star and a book sort of at the end of an anecdote, almost like a hashtag. I know it was written in the stars. So she actually read a book. Jillian, what was your book? i thought it was a cool rebus no it was written in the stars right right it's a book but but it's a book um and and so star book

has kind of become a heuristic or a hashtag that that sort of encapsulates all of this but but admittedly i think also contributes to me thinking that this is more for fun than for real. Now, Jillian, I don't mean to brag, but I have also read a book. What book are we talking about specifically? So this is kind of embarrassing, but it's Martha Beck's Finding Your North Star and related self-help books that she's written. Who is Martha Beck and what is she all about? You know. Don't be embarrassed.

No, no, no. I said don't be embarrassed. I only mean to say I'm grateful that you are willing to be vulnerable. And even though I am the judge, I will not judge you for your reading habits. I read a lot of weird stuff. Fair enough. So, I mean, it's essentially a self-help book that is hard to summarize, but it is analogous to like The Secret or kind of manifesting, like seeing your future and making it come true, kind of like a mystical sort of, I don't know, new agey thing. Oh, she's nice. She's got a nice face and a good haircut.

Sure. Like Martha Beck, a Harvard-trained sociologist, world-renowned coach, New York Times bestselling author. Well, we have that in common. I'm surprised I haven't met her at the club um welcome wayfinders okay so she's basically her vibe is you put out a vibe you get back a vibe yes right you put your intention in the universe and it comes back and has there been a time jillian where this has felt really really true to you such that the hairs stood up on your forearms if you have hairs there? You know, the tingly neck feeling? I mean, it's happened to me for sure.

It's hard to think of an example, but I'll try to think of one while you are telling me yours. I mean, no, like for me, it's more of of of making sense of things that happened to me that feel at the time like misfortune. And then later thinking like, oh, well, if I hadn't had that misfortune, then my path wouldn't have led here. So it's not like it's not really an exact correlation to the Star Book. The Star Book is more a shorthand for like this thing that I know that annoys Courtney that I'm just noting that I'm referring to. Oh, so it's a bit after all. No, I've just accepted my fate that she finds it annoying. Is it called the Star Book?

No. Okay. You refer to it as the Star Book in your private emoji language. It's a vibe. Okay. Yeah. It's a vibe. I just want to ask you one more time if you can

think of an actual experience where you were like oh it's working it's i really can't it's nothing that would be memorable it's like it's like i'll text courtney like the dumbest little things and say that it was because of the star book like i like i you know like had a dream about someone i knew in high school and then saw someone who looked like them. It was the Star Book. That does sound pretty Star Book-y, Courtney, I have to tell you. Jillian, have you ever encountered, and this is going to seem like a really strange question, but it's just a feeling I have. Have you ever come across a fossilized horse tooth?

Oh, yes. Yes. What a great, yes, I did. I was feeling that. Maybe you dug it up somewhere. The Star Book must have told you this. Yes. Sorry to do a cold read, but it's just maybe like I'm seeing like a backyard.

Yes. I found a fossilized horse tooth in my backyard. Wow. Hashtag star book there. That's pretty incredible that I picked up on that. Don't you think, Courtney? Was it literally fossilized? Yeah. Are you a horse fossil tooth expert? I'm not, but I am an academic, so I love a research jag. So you found a fossilized horse tooth and you verified it through academia. I did, through the internet. I mean, I want to hear about this horse tooth, of course, but now I need to know about, like, what do you do? You just Google horse tooth fossilized, yes or no, and then do an image compare?

No, I just, okay, I like different rocks. So I thought it was a rock and I picked it up and I thought, what a cool rock. But maybe it's not a rock. So I reverse image searched it and it came back with horse teeth, fossilized horse teeth. Let's put a pin on that, Jillian. Top three rocks. Well, the horse tooth is up there. Okay. Yeah.

But non-tooth rocks, what are your favorites? Quartz, like rose quartz. Gotta love rose quartz. Yeah. Yeah. But non-tooth rocks, what are your favorites? Quartz, like rose quartz. Yeah. You got to love rose quartz. Yeah. Oh, I have this black crystal that I can't now remember the name of, but it's supposed to be like protective of empathetic energy. So I like that one.

How are you feeling that, Courtney? You like that black crystal that is protective of empathetic energy? You mean it prevents people from empathizing with you? Maybe that's the problem in your relationship with Courtney. You're wearing this crystal and it's blocking their... It's an anti-empathy spell that you cast on your friend. Maybe, yeah. I think it's supposed to protect me as an empath

from negative energies of other people. Oh, getting negative energy from Courtney, although it's not working. Never from Courtney, never from her. Well, we were here because she's giving you some, she's negging you pretty hard in the chat. I guess that's true. With your Starbucks.

What's your number one rock? I need to know the top three rocks. We got Rose Quartz and the Secret Crystal. And the Horse Tooth. Yeah, and I asked for three, Judge. Let's go with, I don't know, just the two. Yeah, you know what? You put out those demands.

You put out a demand for three rocks into the universe, Jesse. You know what you get? Two rocks. What? A bag of coal in your stocking. So it appears. The universe will send that back to you. Let's take a quick recess

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So why was the horse tooth meaningful to you, aside from the fact it's super cool? Yeah, so I thought it was super cool. I mean, it's super cool because it's really, really old. And it just makes me feel kind of like, I don't know, connected to a bigger picture of the universe. And also at that time, my horse was really, really sick. And I really did feel like it was kind of like a memento mori for horses around the world, including my own. And is your horse still with us? Tragically, no. Sorry to give bad news, but no.

No, no. I kind of had a feeling that the story was going that way. And also, it's already established that I'm psychic. And what was your horse's name? Did it begin with an A or a B or a C or a D? Very, very close. It was J-R. J was R-G because I was saying I had G, but obviously I got it confused with J-R. Yeah. Understandable mistake. Oh, poor J-R. What a good horse. I bet he was a good horse. He was a great horse. So Courtney, when Jillian came to you via text or however she approached you and she said, you know, JR is really suffering. But the strangest thing happened. I picked up what

I thought was a rock and it turned out to be a fossilized horse tooth. And it made me feel connected to, you know, the life cycle of horses and the universe in a different way. You just said scoff. How did it make you feel? So I would say that one of the things that Jillian and I have bonded a great deal over in our friendship has been sort of the tragic trajectory of many of our pets. So I actually don't think I would have scoffed at this. I think I'd have said something like, oh, cool. That's great.

Love a fossilized horse tooth. But I don't think I would have scoffed. Not scoffed so much as patronizing yesing along. Yeah, I hate that because I do try to be such a supportive friend, but there is some possibility that I went with, oh, that's cool. Jillian, when you relayed the information about this fossilized horse tooth hashtag Starbook, how did you feel about Courtney's response? Did you feel scoffed? I actually remember like proactively making a joke because I felt like if I didn't make a joke, then she was going to scoff. So I kind of headed it off with a mutual joke. But I think had I not done that, she probably would have said like, oh, yeah, cool. And yes,

I would have felt like she doesn't get it. Is Starbuck a mutual joke? You know, that's a great question. At this point, it is. But at some point. Yeah, I think I'm suing her to take back Starbuck to no longer be a joke and be serious again. Oh, OK. Let's amend the brief.

Meanwhile, I can see you there in your closet, surrounded by all your clothes. Great sound insulation. Thank you. And I saw when I said, you know, she yeses you along, you nodded vigorously. Yes. Tell me about your vigorous nodding. Is that a feeling that you have when she does this stuff to you yes originally she would say flat out i hate that i mean she literally said i hate that a couple of times and then i picked up on that so then i started sort of uh couching it with a joke and then she'd be like oh yeah you know and now it's kind of like the best i could get from her is like that's cool do you believe j Jillian that the universe is thinking about you? I want to believe that.

You're Fox moldering. I'm trying. Okay. I'm trying. I got it. What do you want it to be thinking about you? Obviously good things. I just,

I just want there to be some reason behind some of the bad things that happen or to have, you know, things that feel to me like disappointments in the moment can kind of make sense later and be part of a path to something better. Courtney, just a little question for you. What do you believe about the universe? question for you. What do you believe about the universe? So what I would say is that I probably want that too, and that I can't allow myself to sort of entertain it because of sort of the massive fallout when it sort of proves itself not to be true. So I actually think Jillian and I are coming from sort of an almost identical sense of existential dread that is pushing ourselves in very different, but also like completely against type reactions. As they say in season one of Ted Lasso, which is one of the most perfect seasons of television ever, go ahead and write me letters. It's the

hope that kills you would be your point of view. Perhaps you're afraid to hope that the universe is thinking about you. Yes. Because if the universe is thinking about you, what you know, and the universe goes to a party with other universes, what's it going to say about you? Maybe bad things. I think it's more that in the past five or six years, and Jillian knows this, That in the past five or six years, and Jillian knows this, somebody in my family has been constantly quite unwell. And who it is has rotated a bit. coldness from the universe which will allow yourself to be pleasantly delighted by by anything that that may be sort of more than that but but it doesn't simply destroy you yeah so yeah i'm sorry i didn't mean to put words in your mouth but that's right and and and i love love a happy coincidence, a delightful little thing. But I have found sort of navigating this that it is much easier to stay thinking about the universe as sort of pure cosmic chaos than

to even allow myself a glimpse of hope that maybe it will pull through. And every once in a while, one of these hard things has turned around and gone well. And that has been tremendous, but has made myself, I think, steel myself even more against sort of the expectation or even the hope that it will. So I genuinely think we are, as with most things, on the exact same page, but have just pushed off of each other almost magnetically into these very sort of different stances on these two emojis. One into a flirtation with faith and the other into sheer nihilistic cynicism. I got you. Which is funny because in our daily lives, we're the opposite. I'm sort of the happy-go-lucky optimist and she is sort of the slightly more serious pessimist. So it is funny that sort of at the core of it, we're sort of going to each other's corners. You said, Courtney, that you enjoy a delightful

coincidence and you have sent in as evidence photograph of a delightful coincidence. I do, although I also should have sent in a photograph of the rock that I found when I was eight or nine years old that was also a delightful coincidence along the lines of the horse tooth. But more recently, Jillian and I were planning our Thanksgiving travel. And what you have to know is that in any given day, we're texting, we're sending Instagram stories, we're talking on the phone. She's sending me a slew of somewhat unhinged voice memos while she's driving. We have a lot of communication in any given day. And suddenly we realized that both of us in only a few days were going to be

in Nashville at the same time. And so I thought, what a wonderful coincidence. How delightful is that? That one of my favorite people on the planet and I will be in the same place and our families can get dinner. But that I think is a great example of me being pleasantly surprised and and Jillian may be thinking star book there's a photo of you and what I presume is the hotel room based on the popcorn ceiling uh being very happy because you're meeting unexpectedly and for all the communication neither of you had thought to say to the other, I'm going to be in Nashville sometime soon. And suddenly you were there together. Yes, exactly.

Right. Well, I hate to say that I organized this. I've been pulling the strings behind your lives for the past two years. Thank God someone is. It would explain a lot. Is there anything to this rock that you mentioned that has anything to do with this case other than we were talking about rocks and you wanted part of it? Just my own happy rock coincidence. Just another funny thing that Jillian and I have in common.

Oh, that you also found a rock one time? That's right. But it was not intrinsic to the experience of you finding that rock. It's not like you found a fossilized giraffe tooth the same day you wrote a giraffe or something. No. It's just that you found, no. I was hiking in Sedona when I was nine. I kept talking to my parents about, oh my gosh, what if we find a crystal?

What if we find a crystal? And I am not the most coordinated person. I tripped, fell, and fell on top of a little crystal. And so in my family, that little crystal has always been sort of a stand in for what a delightful coincidence. You no wonder you hate this stuff. You tripped on a crystal.

These crystals are out to get you. That could be right. Jillian's wearing a protective crystal. This other one tried to knock your teeth out. That's right. Whereian's wearing a protective crystal. This other one tried to knock your teeth out. That's right. Where is that crystal now? It is in an old beanie full of things that I thought were lucky when I was a child in my parents' house in Southern California. You put aside childish things.

I did. What else is in that beanie? Honestly, it's a lot of rocks. Do they still have it? They do. And we actually talk about it, I don't know, maybe every year or so, somebody will bring up how crazy it was that that crystal thing happened because my brother insisted that my parents planted it to pacify me.

And so it comes up all the time in that sense, but, but they maintain that they did not. Wow. Your brother says they, they planted the crystal. He at least did when we were kids in Sedona, but, but I think he is either come around or completely forgotten it by this point. Courtney, when you talked about how you two became friends, you described each other as work soulmates. That's pretty star bookie, I got to say. Soulmates that you were destined to know each other, that they have a special connection. Yeah, I would say that it was glib. I was trying to come up with something less twee than best friends.

And I don't think I landed on it in hindsight. less twee than best friends. And I don't think I landed on it in hindsight. But I do think it also is sort of, I like it because it's evocative. I would be happy to use Starbook as a fun, evocative heuristic that is sort of indicating, wow, can you believe it? But it isn't, I'm not a believer in soulmates, but I do think it's sort of sufficiently emphatic to to sort of explain explain our friendship i'm gonna ask you both um some questions and i just want you to answer right off right from your gut right without thinking jillian you believe in ghosts yes courtney you believe in ghosts no j Jillian you believe in Bigfoot? No

Courtney would you take that box of lucky rocks from your parents basement and throw it into the ocean Titanic style? No I was tricking you into thinking I was going to ask about Bigfoot but I wanted an honest reaction about your box of lucky rocks How do you think about Bigfoot?

You know when I was a kid i loved sightings and and the bigs feet and and all of that um and and at some point i think i have become maybe a little too against all of those things and i'm realizing now what i think has maybe been true throughout our friendship which is that that Jillian is much more inclined towards them than I am. It just doesn't usually come up in sort of the context that we're relating to each other. I'll tell you what, Big's Feet was great. I love that. I get a lot of letters about how to pluralize Bigfoot. I feel like that's a new one to me. I believe in Big's Feet because you deserve my answer too. So I believe in Big's Feet, at least the possibility of Bigsfeet. That's why I'm friends with Lauren Coleman, the proprietor of the International Cryptozoology Museum in Portland, Maine. And I'll tell you how I feel about GhostTube, but I'll tell you when I get to my verdict.

order. And it is more or less benign. I mean, obviously, very hard things happen, but they open opportunities, if not for other good outcomes, at least moments of profound self-reflection, let's say. The universe has your back. That's the whole universe on your side. What do you care what Courtney thinks? Yeah. So I think what Courtney alluded to is that I'm kind of the morose one in our friendship and she's kind of the happy-go-lucky one. And so for me, I feel like I can kind of barely muster the sort of enthusiasm and positivity to be like, to like try to believe this thing. And then when she's like, meh, not really, then I feel like, well, I don't know if I even believe it either. So you've kind of talked me out of it. So I don't know. It's just it's a very fragile sort of belief that I'm trying to kindle or cultivate. And so so it's it is it's fragile. It's vulnerable to sort of being scoffed at. scoffed at. Courtney, when you, you know, Jillian's saying she needs a little star book. And when you scoff at it, you're, you're smashing that star book and it's hard for her. How does that make you feel? Oh, totally horrified. Um, I think, I think that Jillian would

stipulate to the fact that we are both sort of very caring, thoughtful, constant friends. And so the idea that my rebuffing this thing that I had not taken seriously is harming her is horrifying to me. And so if I understood sort of the nature of when she says Starbuck, where she's coming from, I actually would be willing to accommodate that with the caveat that I think she understands how profoundly I struggle with sort of the things happening for a reason logic, especially like right now at this time in my life. So I would flag, I'm not necessarily doing it to scoff. I think we're both engaging in these sort of self-protective measures that may be sort of coming at the cost of the other one more seriously than either of us had sort of stopped to recognize, which I know neither of us would want. It sounds like both of you might need one of those black crystals. I know.

Yeah, but you can't let them touch. Or else it rips a hole in space-time. Sure. So, Courtney, maybe you can help put a name so that Jillian understands to why you need protection from Starbook. Like Starbook is protective to Jillian, but when you see it, you have this reflex to scoff.

If Jillian is right and there's no free will or whatever it is, how does that, why do you need protection from that? I think it's hard for me when my mom was so sick, but then she got better. And then my dog was so sick, and then he kind of got better. But now my dad is so sick that it's just easier for me to sort of live a life of sort of not expecting things to work out or things to turn around or sort of the universe to intervene in sort of a caring way because it doesn't always. But then I have to admit, sometimes it does, because in most of my answers as to things that have sort of stripped me of my belief in a lot of things. Many of them

didn't turn out as badly as they could have. So maybe a little bit more hope would be a good thing. It just feels like, you know, the downside is that they don't always work out. And I don't know, I prefer having these sort of grounded expectations so that I don't end up sort of in that tremendous pitfall. I mean, you accuse yourself of being glib and sarcastic. But I could see how if you're suffering, someone saying to you everything happens for a reason at the wrong time could make me want to go, go jump in a lake or to quote Moonrise Kingdom, a perfect film, write me letters. I love you, but you don't know what you're talking about.

I noticed that you were nodding vigorously there as I continue to talk and I should have shut up and let you respond. So now I will. Yeah. The caveat being that she does know. And so it's not as though I feel- So she should know better. Yes. She should know better. So yeah, I don't know. I mean, Starbook, I think it's funny. I'd love to be able to say Starbook as sort of a funny thing. But I guess what we need a ruling on is when somebody can say Starbook. And if she tells me, which I think by bringing me to your courtroom, Judge, that this is the way that she has been able to tell me that she needs it, that she has been able to tell me that she needs it, she can have it. But I also think that, that, you know, some recognition that, you know, it, it, it can be a little bit challenging for me

to, to sort of be fully on board for that mindset would be helpful, which I know she knows. Right. Jesse Thorne, sometimes I'll text you and you'll use an emoji. A thumbs up or a smiling face with cool guy sunglasses or whatever. That's fun. I don't use emojis that much. So I'm going to ask you, Jesse, can you think of an appropriate emoji combo to respond to Starbook that would validate Courtney's feelings? emoji combo to respond to Starbook that would validate Courtney's feelings? What are the good emojis out there that suggest chaos and disorder in this universe?

What is an emoji that just would quietly be nothing matters? What about a horse and a tooth? Horse and a tooth. I like it. Okay. Jillian, would you remind me of the perfect ruling that you amended? You wanted a new ruling? Here it says you want Courtney to stop making fun of you when you say something is meant to be,

which I think is easy to order without even taking a moment to think of a verdict, because friends shouldn't make fun of friends. And then also that for her to go along with it, that she should go along with Starbook even if she doesn't believe it. Is that right? Yes. I mean, I want her to pretend that she believes it as I pretend I believe it. Wasn't there another ruling or an amendment that you mentioned? I think it was that. No, it was about that you get to take Starbuck back. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. It's because I've kind of conceded Starbuck. At

this point, it is a bit. But what I would like is to take it back to sort of a magical thing that we can kind of pretend that we believe. And she has to pretend too. I see. Okay. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to go through my beaded curtain. I did have a beaded curtain when I was a child into my room full of crystals. Did not have that. I will scry my crystal ball and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Courtney, how are you feeling about your chances right now? I don't care about my chances. Whatever the judge wants is fine. What I'm worried about is that if I have been sort of rebuffing this to the point that Jillian has felt

made fun of, that has never been a goal or even anything that I would hope would be a byproduct of me sort of pushing away the logic. So whatever happens, I would love if Jillian is feeling made fun of, maybe there's an emoji there that she can throw out because I never want her to feel made fun of. I always want her to feel supported, even if we're sort of disagreeing about sort of the bookiness of it all. Jillian, how do you feel? I feel good. I mean, I think my request to force Courtney to pretend she believes something she doesn't is possibly a bridge too far. And I understand that that's that saying things happen for a reason is is like annoying to anyone and particularly maybe challenging for her, given what she talked about. So I think, you know, I trust the judge's wisdom to give us a fair and workable

ruling. And I look forward to hearing what he has to say. We'll see what he has to say when we come back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun

or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try.

Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close.

Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Judge Hodgman, we're taking a break from the case and we want to let everybody know that we are headed out on tour. Circuit Court is in session. This is our first tour in years, like actual years.

It is going to be a great time. Starting at the end of January, we are going to be in Seattle, Portland, Denver, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and of course, the Judge John Hodgman capital of the world, Port Townsend, Washington. Can I just say, if you live in or near Port Townsend, Washington, please come to our show because, look, the mayor is on board. The mayor is coming. Port Townsend, Washington, and I demand, if not the key to the city, at least the combination to the lock. We'll see how we draw in Port Townsend, Washington. It's going to be a fun show one way or another. It might just be us and the mayor and his wife or something, but we'll find out. It's going to be a hoot one way or another.

Maximumfun.org slash events is where you can find dates and locations and ticket details for all of those places. Seattle, Portland, Denver, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Port Townsend, Washington. It is going to be a blast. And if you're in any of those places or within traveling distance, make sure to submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. Please, we need cases. It's a Hodge Monty holiday spectacle coming right up in just a couple of days. Monty Belmonte, your summertime fun time guest bailiff, and I will be answering the ding-dong doorbell as multiple guests stop by for our holiday spectacle at the Shea Theater in Turners Falls, Massachusetts. My triumphant return to the Pioneer Valley. Can't wait to see all of my old friends there, including Perry Von Vicious. Can't wait to see a Perry Von Vicious. We're going to have all kinds of friends stopping by, including your friend and mine,

the great Jean Grey, your friend and mine, the great Jonathan Colton, and your friend, and soon to be my friend, because I haven't met her yet, but I love her music, Heather Maloney and her band High T. Tickets are on sale now, if they are not already sold out, at bit.ly slash hodgmonty22. You can just look up Hodge Monty and get it, but I did make a bit.ly finally. Bit.ly slash hodgmonty22. The number is two, two. See, slash Hodge Monty, H-O-D-G-M-O-N-T-E 22. The number is 22. See, this is very complicated. Bit.ly slash Hodge Monty 22, all capital letters. See you at the Shea.

Please, can't wait to see you there. And before we get back to the case, if you happen to be in Southern California, come out to the South Pasadena Vintage Flea Market on Saturday the 17th. We'll be there all afternoon. We, being me and Horacio or Bucky from the Put This On shop. And there's food and lots of other vendors. It was a really nice show right behind Mission in South Pasadena.

So come out. Say hi. It's fun. I met some nice Judge John Hodgman listeners last time. It was a lot of fun. Okay. Let's get back to the case. I met some nice Judge John Hodgman listeners last time.

It was a lot of fun. Okay, let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. I disagree with the quotation about the saddest words of tongue or pen being what might have been. I don't think anything might have been. What is, is. That's the whole idea. Any other idea is remote, such as, oh, if only it had been different, Jeanette and I would be gliding down an aisle on a gondola, or Harold and I would be in Antarctica together, or I would be

a famous movie star. All of this is absolute nonsense. What is, is, and what might have been could never have existed. That's the full quote from that Edward Gorey book, Ascending Peculiarity. And I said earlier on that, you know, I've definitely had moments of, you know, tingling on the back of my neck, non-ASMR video related moments of sheer sense of serendipity or synchronicity, or a sense that I was receiving something from the universe that was beyond just a kick in the pants and a, and a breath of ill wind or whatever. And one of those moments was actually when I was in Los Angeles with David

Reese and we were pitching a TV show all over town. And we, um, we really had put a lot of work into this TV show. It was a TV show about Bigsfeet actually. And it was a comedy. Um, and, um, you may have noticed that never got made. You've never seen the David Reese, John Hodgman, Bigsfeet comedy show, uh, workplace comedy among Bigsfeet hunters, but we had put so much hope and faith into this happening. But we had put so much hope and faith into this happening. And we were staying in an Airbnb together in LA. And after we had done all of very early in the morning to go home the next morning and to wait for word about this TV show. And David did not have to wake up that early. And I just noticed this book and I realized two things.

I wanted David to have it because he's my friend and he loves Edward Gorey too. And also my bag was heavy enough and I didn't want to put it in my bag. And also, my bag was heavy enough and I didn't want to put it in my bag. So I was looking through this gory book at about five o'clock in the morning and I came across this image of a dog that I've never seen in any other gory book ever collected. And it is this very, very old, wrinkly, beautiful dog, massive dog draped in a blanket that says what might have been. And it accompanied this quote from this interview that he gave. And the hair raised on my forearms, very fine hair on my forearms, I felt the tingle on the back of my neck.

And I knew we weren't going to sell this show. We weren't going to sell this show. And it was okay. It was not a failure. We did our best. I just knew that we weren't going to sell this show and it was okay. It was not a failure. We did our best. I just knew that we weren't going to sell it. A premonition? There was no way that it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy because I never said it out loud.

But more than that, this word, this phrase, what is, is, or as we shorten it here on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast, it's it, was very, very reassuring that it's not for me that everything happens for a reason. It's just, it happens. It happens. We didn't sell the show. One of the networks asked us if we would pitch another idea to them for an animated block. And we came up with the show Dicktown available on Hulu. One of the greatest things to happen in my creative life. Was that because the universe was offering us consolation because we didn't get to do this Bigfoot show? No, it's because the Bigfoot show wasn't really great. And we put ourselves into the universe, which is true.

And we put ourselves into the universe, which is true, but because we put ourselves in front of people who liked us, just not our dumb idea, we got another chance. And if that had not happened, and if let's say we don't ever get to make more Dicktown or whatever else that we're working on doesn't ever get to happen again, what is, is. I also resist believing in ghosts because I believe in a Bigfoot any old day, because that could be an animal that just hasn't been discovered yet, like a coelacanth or an okapi or an opapa, whatever that is. It's the name of Starley Kine's dog. But a ghost really does suggest that there is something else out there in the universe unless they are time travelers with bad wardrobe or some other unknown which is possible the idea that a ghost of a spirit that has lingered beyond death is uncomfortable to me because it is too reassuring it would suggest that there is at least some tortured form of life after death. And that is such the,

that is such having, you know, gone through what we've, we've all, we're all suffering, right. Uh, having gone through loss of someone very close to me,

it is not a, it is not really a comfort to the idea that there's just some happy place they go to feel so, I mean, glib, right? That it undoes me worse than to imagine that we come to an end in our lives. Or what happens after we die is unknowable and therefore let's not talk about it. Let's let what is, is and be and live in this life. Now, the only reason that I know this full quote, I thought this book was lost. I thought David left it in the Airbnb, but I texted him this morning. I'm like, you don't still have that book. And as we were recording this, he sent me the photo of the page of this illustration that I didn't think I could find.

Coincidence? Well, no, I asked him to do it. But still, it felt magical. And I love the feeling of things feeling magical. It's great. It's a wonderful feeling because there are truly things that you can't quite explain. explain. And part of being an agnostic, which is, I guess, what I am, is I don't spend a lot of time or energy tisking other people's faith ways so long as they don't get in my way and they don't dictate Supreme Court orders. And I also savor mystery because not knowing, you know, is, um, sorry, Walker Percy, but it's better to not know

sometimes than to know that one goes out for my old writing teacher. Lee K Abbott is no longer with us in any case. That's where I'm coming from to this. So what we have here is, is a collision of two people who really care about each other, who are developing coping mechanisms that we are all have been developing, especially over the past few years, coping mechanisms to deal with randomness and misfortune and hard feelings. It's not been an easy time for anyone. And for some people it's been truly, truly, truly rough. And for those people And for some people, it's been truly, truly, truly rough. And for those people, for some people, Star Book, that somehow there's an explanation for what's happening is not a

consolation, but an undermining of the very, very deep sorrow that they feel, for some people. For other people, the idea that there is something beyond what we know, which is a feeling that I have, that there is something beyond there. We cannot say for certainty that there is nothing beyond our perception is a great comfort and they deserve that comfort as well. Baseline, I would have to say, Jillian, is that if you are a person of a kind of faith in an ordered universe, that anyone who is of a faith in an ordered universe kind of has to take it on the chin a little bit from those who don't get it. That's your choice to believe in an ordered universe. It is your faith way. to believe in an ordered universe. It is your, it is your faith way. Um, and if people say,

I'm sorry, I can't believe that part of your obligation to your faith way is to say, I feel you. I still feel the same way. You know, that said, it's not nice to hear it from your best friend all the time. It's not so nice to hear it from your best friend all the time. all the time. It's not so nice to hear it from your best friend all the time. There's an easy part of this ruling, of course, which is that Jillian, you know, of course, Courtney should not make fun of you. And I think that Courtney was really horrified. And that was the word that Courtney used to appreciate how some of her, what she considered to be good natured scoffing or yeah, whatever's were making you feel. I cannot order her to go along with it. You know, I can't order her to, to believe in your religion of the Starbuck emoji combo and join your church. She's got her own way of coping and dealing with things.

I can't allow Courtney to continue to scoff either. And I think that whatever I might rule is moot. I'm not sure if either of you ever heard that your actual attorneys, that's a law term that I'm probably misusing. Whatever I rule is kind of pointless because I don't think Courtney's ever going to do it again. I don't think Courtney's ever going to scoff again. But I do feel that it is your absolute right to hashtag Starbook anything that you say to your friend. I'm finding in your favor, Jillian, in the sense that like, let's stop pretending that Starbook is a joke to you, Jillian, in the sense that like, let's stop pretending that Starbook is a joke to you, Jillian, because you know that Courtney thinks it's a joke and you're trying to grease

the friendship along by going along with her and pretending that it's a joke. It's a real thing. Starbook is a real thing. And that is your indicator. Like this is this, what I am texting you is my indicator of hope in this world that things maybe aren't just random. And Courtney, I'm going to have to order you to take Starbook emoji. And this is what's beautiful about emoji, right? Like the church that somehow finds a way to convert people with emojis is going to make the most money in the world. But it is just

a little, it's just a little symbol. Like this is part of my worldview and it's not pushy. Like you have to admit this is the world operating the way I've always said it is. It's just like, yeah, Starbuck, Starbuck. I think that you deserve Courtney to have a response of your own in emoji form that similarly situates where you are in this universe and your feelings about the universe that is just you that that Jillian has to sort of take an equal neutral mode and not respond to but but appreciate that you have a different point of view in the universe. I asked Jesse Thorne to brainstorm some emojis. Jesse, what were the emojis that you came up with, please? Well, one idea was the shaking finger emoji, the uh-uh.

Uh-uh-uh. Yeah. And then a crab. That, like, expresses I'm not having it. One was sort of a tribute to our friend Andy Daly and his beautiful television show, Review. Yes. And that's a stack of pancakes and then a person crying. And it just means that like, sure, you think pancakes are going to be great, but then it's just too much, you know.

It's just, yeah. Yeah, that's right. And then one is the tornado emoji and followed by the wind emoji, which symbolizes that the world is just a fart hurricane. Fart hurricane. Those are all very, very good. Do any of those resonate with you, Courtney, more than horse tooth? You know, I think maybe, I mean, obviously fart hurricane resonates, especially the tornado emoji as I'm in tornado alley, as is Jillian. But I think maybe also including a heart to let her know that this is not coming from a place of scoffing, but a place of sort of loving disagreement.

So my order is this. I'm really in Jillian's favor. Courtney can't make fun of you. Jillian, you get Starbook. Starbook is your thing. Starbook is your thing. I would add a heart to it. Hearts all around just to remind each other.

And then Courtney, you get Fart Tornado as a response with a heart to remind Jillian as well that, you know, sometimes life is just a random whirling collection of fart noises and then you can share horse tooth and if I were you I think you know deploy horse tooth more often than the others because here's why it's the exact same emoji for you Jillian it connects you to that horse tooth that you found that connected you to the universe of all the horses that have lived and died that every horse has its time on earth what is is and for you courtney it connects you to your feelings like yeah horses die that's how it goes have heart and then just like i think especially during the holidays it's best not to talk about religion or politics, even with your closest friends. Let these emojis be the whole of your communication on the subjects of faith and spirituality. Unless you want to,

unless you get someone else to meet you because I'm out of here. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Courtney, how are you? Good. You know, I think the horse tooth will be great because I will send it from a place of, hey, cool, a horse tooth.

And I think that that is perfect. I mean, you got to admit, like if I found a fossilized horse tooth, I'd be like, whoa, cool. Awesome. What a great coincidence. A horse tooth. Jillian, how do you feel? Good. I just have to find a crystal that I can trip Courtney with. Jillian, Courtney, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Jillian, Courtney, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you.

Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. Before we dispense some swift justice, our thanks to Twitter user at WeHaveSnacks for naming this week's episode Case Sarah Sarah. If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. You can also find us on Facebook at facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. On Twitter, use the hashtag JJHO. And we're on Reddit, maximumfund.reddit.com. Have a lot of fun there talking about cases and other Max Fund shows. Evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman. Our engineer in Alabama was Nick Golden at Seed Creative, and Jillian was recorded by her husband, Andrew. Thank you,

Andrew and Nick. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Our editor is Valerie Moffitt. Now, swift justice, small disputes with quick judgments. Nick says, my wife and I have a dispute about how to open an advent calendar. I say you start at one and count up. She says you start at 24 and count down. Start at 24 and count down. Who's right? Who's wrong? No, it's called an advent calendar, not an advent count-down-lander. He started one.

He started one. Hey, it's the cozy season. Things are getting chilly here in Brooklyn. It's finally below 50 degrees. What's happening to this earth, I wonder? In any case, we're getting close to winter solstice. It's finally below 50 degrees. What's happening to this earth? I wonder. In any case, we're getting close to winter solstice. It's time to bundle up. We need those cozy disputes. I don't know what a cozy dispute is. You figure it out. A dispute over hot chocolate, the best way to make it. A dispute over whether it's acceptable ever to wear a blanket that zips up. I think you know what I mean.

We call them Snuggies? I don't know what we call them. Oh, I know. How about a dispute over the great Edward Gorey book, The Haunted Tea Cozy? Anything with cozy in the name, title, or idea, we would love to hear them. Also, by the way, a few weeks ago, we sent out a call for family feuds. Obviously, we have a lot of spousal feuds. What about sibling feuds, uncle feuds, cousin feuds. Obviously, we have a lot of spousal feuds. What about sibling feuds, uncle feuds,

cousin feuds? Specifically, I asked for avuncular disputes, uncle feuds, which is a good name for your uncle. But I didn't know at the time what the aunt or aunt equivalent to avuncular would be. But thank you to our listener, Margaret, who wrote in with the answer. From medicinnet.com, I don't know why they know, quote, the feminine equivalent of a vuncular is matertural, M-A-T-E-R-T-E-R-A-L. If that's wrong, you don't need to send me a letter. Just give me some of your aunt disputes or aunt disputes or whether it's aunt or aunt. Those are the kind of disputes we want for our family feud. And if you have any dispute, cozy or otherwise, send it in. No case too small.

It's MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. That's MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. And that goes double or triple if you're in one of the cities we are traveling to on tour. Triple or triple if you're in one of the cities we are traveling to on tour. That's Seattle, Port Townsend, San Francisco, Denver, and Los Angeles. If you're in one of those places, make sure to let us know so that we can potentially invite you to be on one of our live shows. We're going to have a great time on this tour. Circuit Court. Okay.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. MaximumFun.org. Okay. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.