Judge John Hodgman - Casters on Casters: John Hodgman, Dan McCoy, Jesse Thorn, and Stuart Wellington

Episode Date: April 20, 2026

It's MaxFunDrive. And here, for the first time, we give you an exclusive look (well, listen) at the craft of podcasting: presenting Casters on Casters. Jesse Thorn and Judge John Hodgman know a thing or two about podcasting, and in this very important podcasting event, they reveal ALL the tricks of the trade. They're joined by podcasting veterans Stuart Wellington & Dan McCoy (The Flop House). It goes without saying these four gentlemen have a very funny, and delightful, conversation. But they also get vulnerable. What does that mean? You'll have to listen to find out! If this glamorous, in-depth journey into what makes your favorite hosts tick inspires you, support them by joining as a member at maximumfun.org/join. Edited by Marissa Flaxbart and Produced by Jennifer Marmor for Maximum Fun. Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

Hey, Judge John Hodgman listeners. I'm Jesse Thorne. And I'm Judge John Hodgman. It's the first day of the MaxFund Drive, so please join us at MaximumFund.org slash join and go to Maximum Fun. Check out the calendar of all the amazing stuff that we are going to do. The MaxFund Drive will run for two weeks until May the first, starting today. Won't you consider going to maximum fund.org slash join to become a supporting listener

not only of the Judge John Hodgman podcast, but all of the Maximum Fun podcast that you love. That's maximum fun.org slash join. Let's kick it off with a bang. Welcome to Castors on Castors. Conversations about the art and craft of podcasting with the masters of the microphone, the titans of talking,

the rulers of remote recordings. On today's show, John Hodgman. and Jesse Thorne, the Judge John Hodgman show, and Dan McCoy and Stuart Wellington of the Flop House. This is Castors on Castors. So why don't we clap at the turn of the minute? Let's hold, hold, let's do it at 10 seconds past the minute.

Give everyone a chance to get their clapping hands limbered. And let's make sure we leave that in, because this, This is Casters on Casters. All about podcastings, the tips, the tricks, the techniques. I'm John Hodgman. Here's your host, founder of Maximum Fun, co-host and co-creator of Judge Sean Hodgman podcast, as well as co-host and co-creator of Jordan Jesse Go,

as well as creator and host of Bullseye, among many other endeavors. To introduce our other guests, it's Jesse Thorne. Hi, John. Thank you for having me here on Casters on Casters. glad to do it. I'm a caster myself. So I'm the perfect person to be on this show with you, a caster. And with us are two other castors. You truly sound like AI right now. That was pretty amazing. Yeah, I could hear those sixth thing. I am so pumped to be here right now on Casters on Casters. Thank you for this opportunity.

And from the Flop House podcast, Dan McCoy and Stuart Wellington. Hi, Dan and Stu. Hey. You know, castors does sound cooler than podcaster, but it still sounds very uncool. Well, the idea is for it to sound like, it's supposed to be like actors on actors. That's the idea. What our goal, so the Max Fun Drive is starting as this show drops. And so our goal for this is to give you guys a little peek behind the scenes about what we do, why we do it, how we do it. and we're doing it by convening a roundtable of probably the four greatest podcasters of all time.

That'll be me, Stu, Dan, and John. I'm sitting in for Adam Carolla. Yeah, exactly. The folks who are listening to this on the Flop House feed, of course, know who Dan and Stu are from the Flop House. But for those who might be listening on the Judge John Hodgman feed, tell us what the Flop House is all about. we used to say we watch a bad movie and then we talk about it and then over the years I became increasingly guilty about feeling like we were not only one

sort of parasitical making fun of things but also like I didn't want people to get the idea that we prejudge because honestly sometimes we end up liking things we watch so now we say it's a movie a podcast now we say it's a podcast where we watched something that was a critical or commercial flop and see what we think. And you heard Dan reset there, listener, which is a critical tool in podcasting. When you find yourself sort of just saying, now, hang on, I'm going to retake that. So you just heard Dan McCoy reset there, a critical tool in podcast.

And when you lose your train of thought, you get it back again. You give a clean edit to the editor. In our case, Judge John Hodgman, it's A.J. McKeon, who does the editing over in your podcast. So our, our producer and editor is Alex Smith, who goes by, he is also an entertainer. He is also an entertainer in his own right who goes by the name Howell Doughty. He's a longtime friend, best man at my wedding, in fact. And yeah, he's great. Our producer, Jennifer Marmer, is actually on the line. She's hosting this, the streamyard recording we're using to record this. And I find her presence very comforting, even though I can't see her, just to know that she's

there. Yeah, it is nice. Nice to have dinner around always. Let me ask you guys a question. How do you pick a movie for the show? We used to, in the early days, we would literally go to a video store. Yeah. Wow. Which is why we had kind of settled. What was the one on Flatbush Avenue, Dan? I mean, it was obviously long, long gone. It was in Clinton Hill. I don't remember the the name of it. I just remember like going in there and being an adult man renting Brats the movie and thinking, being gone on a list. Yeah, yeah. The watch list is in effect. But then, you know, at this point, we, we are able to use both our media literacy and our pop culture kind of finger on the pulse to figure out what people are talking about.

And then we do it several months later. Yeah. And then there's also a little bit of crowdsourcing. You know, we'll have friends or friends who might work as critics or just listeners who will reach out to us and be like, you got to do this one. And then we check to see if it's as close to 90 minutes as possible. Yeah, that's the best. You know, this suggests a question to me.

And maybe Jennifer Marmer has more of a hand in this. but how do you know what a good conflict is to talk about on your show? How do you select that sort of thing? Yeah, great question, Dan. I'm John Hodgman from the Judge John Hodgman podcast, and Jesse Thorne came to me less than 18 years ago, but not very many years less, saying, would you ever do a judge show as a segment on Jordan Jesse Goh?

And I said yes. And we had so much fun doing it that we created this podcast together where real people essentially call in with real, usually domestic disputes about, I don't know, Jesse, what? When we just, like, a guy wants to put a door in a duplex. Mostly people write in about dishes-related matters. A lot of dishwashing style conflicts in homes. It's true. And then, you know, probably one of our most iconic episodes was the Bat Brothers episode,

two brothers in a house in Kansas, wasn't it, Jesse? Yeah, it was in Kansas. In fact, it was not very far from where my grandparents grew up in Iola, Kansas. And they had a bat problem in the house, and one of them wanted to figure out a way to let the bats out of the house, and the other one just wanted to smash them with a dictionary that he kept by his bed. And the question was, which is not that way, John. They were getting into the bathroom. He kept the dictionary by the toilet.

The bat room? Thank you. To me, the most distinctive part of the Bat brothers and the part that I always emphasize in the and probably should not be emphasized is that they bought this house to save money. That in, to me, the bat's getting in is less remarkable than that if you live in semi-rural Kansas, you can buy a house to save money. They bought this house for like $40,000 or something. At least that was true in 2011 or 2010 or so when we heard that case.

That was one of our original cases. When you mentioned Bat Brothers, I initially assumed you were talking about Mark McGuire Jose Canseco, but those were the Bash Brothers. Yeah, that's the Bash Brothers. We, so basically, people send in, people either fill out a form on the website or they send an email to Podgman at maximum fund.org. And John is actually the one who does the initial pass on that email inbox, right, John? Well, traditionally that that is true, although I will say that, you know, one of Jennifer Marmer's huge responsibilities and the one that she meets

ably every week over and over again is finding and pre-interviewing the litigants, the potential litigants before they ever turn their microphones on so that we know that we're going to have a good and lively and fun conversation. And consequently, we've

really never had a dud. But I would say that Jennifer, I've been meaning to as Jennifer about this for a while because like we're getting litigants through now over the past, oh, I would say six months or so that I don't ever remember laying eyes on the emails. So she's finding folks that I've never seen. So we've got to give her credit for that.

Yeah, she calls people and, you know, she probably talk, random telephone numbers. She's down and docs ruffling some feathers. She goes in the bathroom. She gets the bat phone book. And she calls people and talks to them. And, you know, we're looking for different things. One of the things is just like, are they chill and fun?

Are they comfortable talking to her? just because sometimes people might be too nervous. And also, like, the nature of the dispute, are there distinctive, interesting things about their dispute that might be fun to talk about? And, you know, other, like, more subtle things that listeners might not expect, I mean, the dispute has to be real.

It has to be a real dispute between the people. Oh, yeah. But certain types of stakes freak listeners out. so we have to be careful to avoid those. So it is like a, it is a needle that has to be threaded by Jen and John. I don't really participate in this part of the show, which is to find people who actually care about the thing that is the dispute in question. Both of the parties are willing to come on and understand what they're getting themselves into.

And also that that, like that conflict is something that is something that is, manageable within the tone of the show, right? Yeah, it is a cozy show. I'd be very perturbed if I listen to it and people are genuinely mad at one another. I sometimes like when I'm explaining it to a stranger, like the easy thing to say is, oh, it's like Judge Judy or something. Because formatically, it is like Judge Judy. Right. Then I say, but it's usually between people that love each other and want to resolve their conflict, amicably.

And a judge who's interested in not just shouting at the people. but understanding them. I think that's unfair. So that brings up an interesting question. I've always wondered, do you model yourself after a specific TV judge or is there a TV judge that you aspire to be like? Or a real-life judge that you've appeared before.

Yes, thank you. Well, my first and foremost inspiration is Judge Milita Bollinger, Justice of the Peace in Cold Spring, New York, who married my wife and I. My wife was a holy and the... Oh, that's cute. I don't remember her at all. I'm really surprised I remember her name.

She did a great job. We're legally married, so good job. No complaints. But honestly, there's a bit where I always say, I think I've heard everything I need to make my decision. I'm going to, in my chambers, I'll be back in a moment with my verdict, which is a direct rip-off of Judge Wapner.

I remember watching the people's court as a kid and loving him just going to like, yeah, I heard enough bye. I'm just like, whoop. And then we still play. We have a specific judge hero, right? So like Judge Wapner, whatever, whatever, our specific judge hero is actually a Judge John Hodgman listener who is a real judge, Raquel Montoya Lewis. That's right. She is a judge on the Washington State Supreme Court. And when she was appointed to the Washington State Supreme Court, and she is, among other things, the first native person

on the Washington State Supreme Court, one of the first state Supreme Court justices who is a native person in the entire country. Judge Montoya Lewis sent us an email because we had stopped printing our settled law poster and said, I want one for my chambers. Can you make another one for it for me? And we said, yes. At the very least, we can send you the file. You can go down to Kinkos.

And we got to meet Judge Montoya Lewis when we did a show in Washington State. She came and actually guessed it on the show. And it was just, it's totally. amazing to think of a real life, and she's incredibly principled and carrying justice who really gives a hoot about making the law work for human beings. And it is incredible to think that our weird, dumb show would be something that a person who actually does this for a living treasures, right? Like, the idea that a real judge actually likes us is mind-depending. And also that she totally rules.

It's not just that she does it for a living, but she went through years of presumably expensive schooling, made a lot of sacrifices, had to break a lot of barriers in the legal profession to get where she is, as opposed to me, which is, I'm just a white guy, I was like, yeah, I'm a judge now. One of the things when I listen to the flop house that I always appreciate is, you know, Obviously, Dan and Elliot have worked in the entertainment industry for a very long time. And Stu, you went to college with Dan. Credentials.

They call them credentials. But like one of the things about the flop house is that it really seems to understand a fundamental thing about filmmaking in particular, but the entertainment industry in general, which is that every film, like every notable. film is made by 200 or 300 hyper-competent people that, you know, you can't be on a set. Like, the times that I've been on a set, the thing that awes me is how good at their job every single person is, because if anyone messes up, it messes everyone else up, right? And that there are all these super competent people working on a film, and sometimes it comes out bad. and that's just the nature of it because there's so many moving parts. It's so hard to make it come out good.

Like if it comes out good, that's just like an extraordinary confluence of skill, good luck, good ideas, whatever, whatever, whatever. And your show is pretty generous about that. Like I feel like it understands this truth that everybody who's worked in the entertainment industry has worked on a lot of bad things because sometimes it just doesn't work out. Yeah, no one wants to do a bad. bad job. And sometimes you just got to have work. Like these are people who work for a living. And I think

that it's, it kind of frustrates me sometimes that I think people who have had no experience of it treated as if every decision is an artistic one. When a lot of the decisions are like, I haven't worked for a while. I need my health insurance or whatever. But I appreciate that you say that. Honestly, I do anything to be in a bad movie. Yeah. Yeah. That's all, anytime I hear people come, like, how could they do that? I'm like, I remember thinking very vividly in like 2003 or something like that. There was this controversy in comedy nerd internet circles about the hyper-principled David Cross being in an Alvin in the Chipmunks sequel. And it was like, if you were offered a part in the Alvin in the Chipmunks movie, would you say no?

Like I would I would be like I'll buy my own plane ticket like that's great sure what am I I get to meet the chipmunks I'll do it I would have myself surgically transformed into a chipmunk Tusk style I'm like turning my hat backwards and bagging up my pants so that I can be a hip hop chipmunk I want to mention by the way it is the first day of the max fund drive so if you're a fan of the flop house or you're a fan of Judge John Hodgman. We are supported by your direct support. That is like what makes our work possible. So please go to maximum fund.org slash join. We want to have a big start to the max fund drive. We've got so much stuff for the next two weeks planned. It's going to be such a great time. John and I are streaming every day. We're doing a live show at the end of the drive that is

streaming free to everyone where we're going to settle disputes between MaxFund hosts. It's going to be jam-packed with great stuff. And we'll have regular episodes for you during this time as well. But maximum fun.org slash join is the place to go to become a member of maximum fun. And that is your direct support for our show. Like I think sometimes people are like, why am I supporting maximum fun when I want to support my favorite guys? I like that impression.

Thank you. They do too. You're supporting. Like, I really can't emphasize enough. You are supporting us directly. Like maximum fund supports our work. I'm not the owner of maximum fund anymore. I'm a member of the co-op.

So I'm technically an owner, but I'm not the owner of maximum fund anymore. They support our work. But when you support, when you join, go to maximum fund.org slash join and join, you are directly supporting the podcasts that you listen to. So please go to maximum fund.org slash join. Podcasting can be a lonely job, even if you're talking to, your friends all the time. It's really true.

It's, and, you know, having, not only having the organizational and logistical and producorial support that Max Fun offers, there's, it's just a bunch of nice people. It's a collective. You remember how the monkeys all lived in one house? Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Well, that's like Maximum Fund. There's a fire pole at Maximum Fun HQ.

I, I mean, I feel like I've always been drawn to communities and, like, being part of building a community, whether it's like by opening, like neighborhood bars or in my like Warhammer hobby. But that was one of the things that I really, I was really blown away at how welcoming the maximum fun community was when we joined and how easy it was for us to integrate and get involved with people. And it's, it's been really, it's just been really cool. And it was, it was also, it felt like a really easy way for me to get more direct feedback on the show about the show, which was really cool. And everybody was really, like, thoughtful and welcoming. It was, it's great. Wait, you feel good about getting feedback about the show?

I mean, that's a thing. Like, when we started doing the show, it was so long ago. And I feel like I, you know, I came from the Midwest. And when I moved to New York, I worked in a hobby store around teenage boys. So I feel like I had a relatively limited worldview. And one of the things, about doing the show was that there was those moments where I realized we would get feedback from listeners that are not teenage boys or men just like me. And I was like, oh, wow, like, there's a whole world out there. And it, and everybody was so, like, kind of gracious and, and kind with their feedback. And it, I don't know, like, it helped me grow as a person. Well, that's, yeah, I, I've met so many different types of people through doing the show in a way that really expands my worldview in a healthy way, I think, and also helped me learn how to interact and be gracious with people just in terms of like, I'm a neurodivergent guy raised by a neurodivergent brother in part.

You know, I've been like kind of a shy guy who is awkward around new people and whose warmth reveals itself slowly. And I think that learning how to like be out there in the world and interact with new people who may know me, but I don't know them has been very wonderful and healthy for me. And actually like that suggested a question. I don't know how much time we have, but I wanted to ask you guys, your show involves. Well, we're out of time, Dan. Thank you. That's one of those things that happens in podcasts

where you just hit a hard post. No, what was your question? Yeah, I see I'm getting feedback from Jennifer here. She says, Dan is talking. Wrap it up. Yeah, she's just riding the cough button the whole time. I love... I love talking to me.

our listeners, I would talk to a Max Fun listener any day of the week. I'm so glad when anyone talks to me about the show out in like the real world. However, as I suggested, maybe I'm not like the most natural with strangers and you have a show built around interacting with new people every week. How does one do that? Explain. Well, I mean, I think that obviously we mentioned that Jennifer sort of does the cold calling first. So, you know, we feel quite comfortable that the people we're going to meet are fun and interesting and enjoyable. But also we feel quite comfortable because they usually tend to be listeners to the show.

And like your experience, I like the listeners to the show. Like, you know, as someone who has had my mug plastered on various TV shows and small movies and so forth, I always enjoy when someone comes. up and goes, loved you in that one scene and pitch perfect too, which happened, by the way, at the optometrist the other day. Oh, wow. That was exciting. You know what I mean?

But I don't want to sit and have a conversation with somebody. And I'm not making a promise to Max Fund listeners that I'm going to sit and have a conversation with you every time. But if when someone comes up and says like, I'm a Max Fund member, I'm like, oh, hey, thank you. I think we have something in common here and that we both support this enterprise that we believe in and also I admire your taste. And I want to echo something that I think you said, Stu, which is that like meeting all these people both on the podcast and sort of in the world of the listenership has made me a much better person for sure. I mean, my knowledge of the broader

way that people live is so much more enhanced. And my wife is a whole human being in our own right was like, you're a much better husband now than you were. Not that I was bad. But, you know, the listening and the understanding and the empathy that the litigants show each other and the listeners show to us have really, I mean, if you go back and listen to some of those early episodes, I'm really quite a judgy asshole. And I'm much less so now. And I was encouraging. Like, I thought that was the comedy premise of the show. Like, I want to be clear. Like, as the guy who fought up, John is a judge, I thought it was funny for John to be a judgy asshole on the show and encouraged it for comedy.

John's Daily Show persona was also a little more aggressive, so it made sense. You know, I think sort of he'd done that before where he was bedeviling people. I'll say something that's a real comfort to me is obviously, unlike you guys, I work in the office at Max Funn. Like I'm there close to every day, right? And I look around at the two dozenish people that work there. many of whom I hired, right, when I was still the owner of the company. And when I just 12 years old and they were babies. Yeah.

I look around at these people. I'm like, I'm so lucky to work with these like lovely, wonderful people who work here because they care about touching people's lives. Like there's not a cynical, you know, let's exploit people person. in the entire MaxFund office of dozens of people. Like I get frustrated about things in my office because I work in an office and I'm a human being. But like I also like find myself thinking like if I'm frustrated with something or something to have whatever, just normal office stuff,

I think like, oh, but how great is that person that I'm frustrated with? Like I love them all, you know? And so I know that is a great comfort to me that like, that I have this, that I'm like part of this group of people who are, both the podcasters and the behind the scenes people who are so dedicated to making something special to touch people's lives, even if it's something dumb. Jesse, I'm getting word now from our producer, Jennifer Marmer, and an employee owner of Maximum Fund, that we need to wrap it up soon, but she has some pickups for us. This is a little behind the scenes. Casters on Casters exclusive. We're going to do some pickups,

which is where we go back and we say something again, but better. Or maybe answer a question we didn't answer before. Now that our open bleeding hearts are on display for everyone, we're out of time. So I will one more time, say, please join maximum fund, maximum fund.org slash join.

Go to maximum fund.org and check out all the cool stuff that's happening over the next couple of weeks. weeks between April 20th and May 1st for the Max Fund Drive because we're all doing really cool stuff every day and making special episodes and all kinds of cool stuff in gratitude to you for supporting us. And if you're not yet a supporter or you want to increase your support, go to maximum fund.org slash join. Dan and Stu, thank you for talking with us. We really appreciate it. And the name of their podcast is what again? Don't remember. Right.

The Flop House Podcast, baby. Podcast. Get it where you get your podcasts and follow Maximum Fun on YouTube and hit that subscribe and bell and you'll be alerted to all of the fun stuff that we're doing during the MaxFund Drive as well. Maximumfund.org slash join. What a pleasure to hang out with my friends, our friends. And I want to thank you guys for kind of taking the reins and hosting this.

And John and Jesse, what is your show? again don't remember jesse and i co-created and co-host the judge chan hodgeman podcast available every wednesday on maximum fun and full video episodes are available on youtube at judge john hodgeman pod where all of our live streaming will be happening as well hit that subscribe and like button but most important today is the first day of the max fun drive you've heard what it means to us as podcasters what you mean to us as podcasters if you're not already a member i hope you will now go to maximumfund.org slash join right now and become a member, or if you're already a member and you're able to,

you can boost or upgrade your membership. Every little bit helps to literally keep the lights on and support us and keep us going. If it weren't for you, we'd have to stop. So thank you. Maximumfund.org slash join. Dan, it's two. Thanks for being our friend. We love you guys.

Oh, thanks. We love you guys. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network of artists-owned shows. supported directly by you.