Judge John Hodgman - Cat-or-Dogical Imperative

Episode Date: November 25, 2020

Alan files suit against his wife, Elaine. Alan thinks their cat, Muffin, needs a companion. He’d like to get another cat. Elaine, however, would prefer adding a dog to their family. Who’s right? Who’s wrong?Links discussed in this episode:WendyCarlos.comThe clip of Wendy Carlos that served as backup Obscure Cultural ReferenceThank you to Andrew Eppler Zindell for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, cat or dogical imperative. Alan files suit against his wife Elaine. Alan thinks their cat Muffin needs a companion. He'd like to get another cat. Elaine, however, would prefer to add a dog to their family. Who's right? Who's wrong?

Only one can decide. a dog to their family. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. You're very handy. I can tell. I bet you like to podcast a lot, too.

Podcasting is dead. Oh, that's very fascinating. I podcast a lot myself. Some people think I'm too intellectual, but it's a fabulous way to spend your spare time. I also play racquetball. Do you have any hobbies? Like swearing litigants in? Alan, Elaine, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? So help you God or whatever? We do. Yes. you God or whatever. We do. Yes. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he's currently in talks to star in a remake of the 1970s Disney sequel, The Shaggy D.A.?

We do. Yes. Yes. It's got a great theme song, sort of music man-y. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. How does the Shaggy D.A. theme song go, Jesse? We're gonna elect him our Shaggy. Gonna elect him our Shaggy D.A. But then there's like a patter part. Oh, is that really it? Yeah, the verses are patter and that's how the chorus goes. I don't have the verses committed to memory.

The verses are patter and that's how the chorus goes. I don't have the verses committed to memory. I'm glad I didn't have Alan and Elaine be seated because I'm sure they wanted to dance to that and they did a good job. Yeah, well, they certainly would have been roused because it was a rousing rendition. Yeah. Alan and Elaine, please be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you name the piece of popular culture that I, and our bailiff, Jesse Thorne, paraphrased? I'll give you a hint. The word podcast was not in this actual quote.

We swapped that in for something else. Can either of you name the piece of popular culture that we sort of quoted as I entered the courtroom? Elaine, do you have a guess? Yeah. The only, I mean, the only movie I know in reference to Cats and Dogs is The Truth About Cats and Dogs. Truth About Cats and Dogs. That is a good guess. I'm putting that in the guest book. Alan, what is your guess? I think I know what this is. I think it's from Ghostbusters.

Hmm. Wow. Wow. A movie I've seen several times. Wow. Wow. A movie I've seen several times. Interesting. With our children. So your guess is that this is a quote from Ghostbusters. And you probably would guess that I chose a less quoted quote from Ghostbusters because the quote that I would want to use would be what, Alan? Cats and dogs living together.

Mass hysteria. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That would be a gimme. Right, right, right. So you went with racquetball. When I heard racquetball, I was like, oh, I've only heard someone say, I also play racquetball like once in a movie. And who said it?

Oh, the actress from... Dan Agoy? No, the lady that's the secretary at the front. And she's like, you promised me you'd give me a day off. Oh, right. Right. So you don't know the name of the actor or the character. Would that be true, Alan? Yeah, I'm going to say you got me. Because I was putting a lot of Annie Potts sauce on my reading.

Thank you. There it is. You did. Your tone was right on there with Annie Potts' tone. Well, Alan, okay. You're absolutely correct. As much as I tried to hide it, that is a quote from Ghostbusters. It's Janine played by Annie Potts talking to Egon.

Okay. Spengler played by the other. Now see, now I feel like an idiot. Harold Ramis. Harold Ramis. Thank you, Alan. You and I did it together. But luckily for you,

because you could not name the actor or the character, you are spared humiliation because I've decided that's not the cultural reference after all. This is the new cultural reference. I have to adjust my speakers. Right now we're listening to the A-track, and we're mixing, sort of playing the role of the conductor, putting together, in this case,

a pair of tracks which has all of the string section. It sounds like this. There's a harpsichord track and two flutes. And there's this nice solo that's Let's put them all together. I think it needs a little more echo. Yeah, that's good. Now, I played that for you for two reasons. One, just so that everyone knows that I always have a backup cultural reference just in case. That's not true. I had this one.

I never do. And I've rarely been caught as flat footed as I was today by you, Alan. But luckily, I did have this alternate in place because, do you know who that was speaking either uh elaine or no no that was wendy carlos who celebrated her 81st birthday a couple of days ago from this recording on november the 14th uh wendy carlos is a pioneering composer, specifically of electronic music. She helped develop the Moog synthesizer. Now, Alan's really shaking his head now. He's nodding like crazy. You know this person?

I know the Moog synthesizer. You know the Moog. Oh, yeah. So, yet to know. Wendy Carlos, she also composed the soundtracks for A Clockwork Orange, The Shining, and Tron. And this interview with her, which must be circa 1980 or so, is an incredible thing that circulated on Twitter. It's just an interview with her in her studio in Greenwich Village,

but she is basically draped in every frame by cats. It's incredible. She's talking about the very first eight track that she has in about the original the very first eight track that she has in her studio very first eight track ever made is in her studio and she's got a big siamese cat just sitting on her shoulder and then and then the rest of the thing there are two siamese cats because this is about this whole episode's about multiple pets sitting on top of her synthesizer as she does this whole thing. It's great. It's on my Twitter feed.

We'll put a link to it. Wendy Carlos is also a pioneer in the trans community because she happens to be a trans woman who came out very early on in the history of that community and is just an incredible creator and someone worth celebrating. So there you go. All guesses are wrong. Now the question is, which one of you two is wrong? Let me understand this.

You have a cat named Muffin, correct, Alan? Correct. Right. And you would like to add to your pet portfolio another cat, correct, Alan? Correct. And Elaine, you would like to add to your pet portfolio a dog. Is that correct? That's correct. And I find your cultural reference really amusing because I don't know if you IMDB Alan, but he's a part-time composer and he wants to add more cats. So this is like almost like a doomsday for me. Yeah, this is the one time that I did not IMDb search both litigants before getting on the line. So Alan, what are your claims to fame? Did you compose the music to Tron?

No, I was beat out by that. No, I for a brief time we were in we were in LA and I was pursuing a career in film music. So composing and interning for bigger name composers. And I had the idea of composing music for film. So I'm familiar. You were the one who came up with that? Yes. You had the idea for composing music for film? Yes. For my, yes, yes.

Wait, are you Alan Silvestri? That'd be nice. That would be nice, right? Yeah. Okay. But now you live in Seattle, is that correct? Correct, yeah. Right.

I am granting myself to treat you both as hostile witnesses. Because as an only child and a cat person, this entire discussion disgusts me. You have children already, correct? We do. Three. Oh, that's more than one, I believe. Yes. Yeah. So I, you know, on a cellular level, it's hard for me to understand what you're even

contemplating here because, you know, it was hard enough for me to imagine what having two children would be like. How do you divide your love between two creatures in your house? Never, never, never mind. Then adding a cat and then adding another animal. Why would you want to siphon your love away from muffin? That seems mean, cruel.

We'll talk about your whys. Okay. I mean, I get it. Look, we have one cat, Lola the Dumb Dumb Cat. And we think frequently because she's so kind of dull and she spends most of the time staring off into space. We wonder, should she have a little friend? We've often thought about how much fun it would be to get a greyhound and then put a little saddle on the greyhound so that Lolo can ride the greyhound around.

That would be great. Sure. A lot of fun can be had. Jesse, you have two dogs. Yeah, two saddles. Exactly. And I know that you can have more than one cat or dog, just as you can have more than one child, and it's okay.

But I'm terribly afraid of the unknown what happens if we add a greyhound and all of a sudden that greyhound is chasing lolo around because the greyhound thinks she's a rabbit and then my certainty of what will happen since it's a cat we're talking about is even greater than my certainty of the unknown my fear of the known is great because you know what's going to happen whether Whether it's a cat or a dog, Muffin is going to hate you deeply for a long time. And cats know how to get revenge. But you are both settled on this path, correct? I can't convince you to just leave well enough alone?

Well, I mean, this is why we're here talking to you is to maybe you can find you, you, I've watched, listened to this for many years. You always come to a good judgment as far as most, most parties are all happy. Great. Let Muffin be an only child. Next case. No, this isn't about, I'm not a part of this dispute. I just need to explain my bias, but I refuse to recuse myself. You have a dispute. I just need to explain my bias, but I refuse to recuse myself. You have a dispute. I'm going to settle it. John, I don't think Muffin being an only child is even realistic. Cats can't read alone in their room and they can't carry briefcases to high school. It's true. It's true. I don't even think they like to read Edward Gorey. So, all right.

Alan, tell me about Muffin. How old is Muffin? I think he's six. Is that right? He's five? Between five and six. Somewhere around that age. Prime of Muffin's life.

Yeah. We rescued him. Good job. He's, I guess, a tabby, right? Like a house cat tabby. He's very sweet. He's very calm. With three kids that sometimes can do rough play with him, he's pretty chilly.

He's a good cat. How old are your kids? Let's see. 11, 10, and 8. We got Muffin because of a request from our oldest. Oh, okay. Yeah, when she turned 7, we made the deal. I think we made that deal when she was about 5?

3. Oh, okay. We saw 7 was so far away. Yeah. Right, right. So your daughter, your eldest daughter, correct? Am I understanding that correctly? Yeah. Requested a cat and you bequeathed Muffin upon her.

Yes, yes. And she's 11 now. Does she have a connection with this cat? Does she have an investment in whether Muffin have a furry friend or no? have a furry friend or no? She does. She has an opinion on this. She's kind of Muffin's mom. She comes down and gets him his little snack in the morning and she plays with him and, you know, she helps manage the litter box.

So she's very much involved. So Elaine, what is your eldest child's feeling about this new cat, new dog situation? Not that children should rule the roost. I'm just wondering. I think her feelings that she wants, she's like you, you she wants neither she doesn't want to add right that's her love like you said she's afraid the tension will be taken away or that muffin will stop loving her in some way well that's going to happen so why are you both intent upon ruining both the lives of your cat and at least your oldest child. Because we're parents. You got to just throw it in and see what happens, right? Grab popcorn and just...

Part of the job. Yeah. They ruined my life. Vengeance shall be yours. Alan, I'm afraid that you are losing this case currently. Elaine just made a really important point, which is it's your job to destabilize things for your children to help them grow. Sure. And an initiative at Dog would really do that.

Now, Alan, you want a cat. What is the reason for wanting this extra cat? Toxoplasmosis? Or do you think Muffin has something lacking in his life? No, I was thinking, well, first we have a neighbor and she's always had two cats. And I see them play together and they're just siblings. So it is a little different, but they're very close together. And seeing two cats play together and having fun is, you know, that gave me the idea that, well, maybe he would like some companionship.

Muffin is mostly an indoor cat. We let him out occasionally, but mostly he's inside. And currently we're all indoors. We're all here. We're working and we're going to class and, you know, doing work. So right now there's plenty of people around to do stuff. But this idea came many months before thinking that if I go to work and the kids go off to school and maybe he would like a companion, maybe he'd like an extra friend. And I just thought maybe a cat

would make the most sense to bring into the house as far as a companion for Muffin to keep them company. When you say we're all stuck inside here, you're not saying we need some more entertainment. We need it. We need cats fighting each other. You're saying that when we move forward into a new and better normal, we're able to be outside again. You're concerned that Muffin will be lonely.

Yeah, I think so. Do you have evidence that this is a possibility? I don't know. Trying to read the cat's mind is obviously hard. We're probably projecting a little bit, you know, and that's why I feel like maybe he's lonely. And Elaine's like, I don't think he's lonely. He's probably fine. Elaine, what do you think is the situation with Muffin?

And why do you want a dog instead of a cat? Well, I think Muffin, first of all, is a cat. I think cat wants to be alone. So I don't know. first of all, is a cat. I think cat wants to be alone. So I don't know, bring another cat is what Muffin is seeking, right? And companionship, we're his companions. And Muffin is five and he's, or six. And he's kind of acting like a teenager. So he's kind of, you know, not, I don't know, it's a cat. Like it doesn't listen to you. It doesn't do what you want to do. And, you know, I'd need one more being rolling their eyes at me and walking away from me. So

it's, you know, so it's like, if we're going to get an, I don't want another teenager. Like I want a dog who would just unconditionally love me. Yeah. John, I have three children and two dogs. And, uh, unlike my, uh, for example, my three-year-old Frankie, my dogs have never said to me, Daddy, no, I don't like you. But it's true. Cats will often say to you in not so many words, I don't like you.

Cats have conditional love down. Dogs do tend to be a little bit more fawning. Do you have an idea of what style of dog you're looking for size wise? Not really. I think we both agree, you know, we'll look for a dog that is gentle, you know, and plays well with the kids and is just, you know, chill. I think I think that's more important to us than the looks of the dog. Right. That doesn't, should not judge a book by its cover. Right. But there's no, it's not like you grew up. Like I've always wanted a lab. Uh, you know what I mean? Oh, right. No. I mean, except to the extent that we all grew up wanting our own Marmaduke.

In your kitchen right now, there's already a long string of sausages. I mean, except to the extent that we all grew up wanting our own Marmaduke. It's true. In your kitchen right now, there's already a long string of sausages. Yeah. There is a human in our household who's very into getting a Great Dane. Oh, gosh. And I have to explain to you, those poops are the size of human poops. You don't want that. I don't.

Yeah. Alan's the dog person, though. He grew up with dogs. I didn't even really grow up with dogs. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Alan's the dog person, though. He grew up with dogs. I didn't even really grow up with dogs. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. I grew up with both.

And I love both. I do. I love dogs and I love cats. Seattle is a very dog-friendly town. There's lots of dogs. Our neighborhood actually has a lot of cats and a lot of outdoor cats. They come and look at Muffin through the window and they stare at him and they walk away. And I know where this can go. It could go either my way or it could go Elaine's

way. So it's like, I know it's when it's, I'm prepared for that type of judgment. I'm only thinking of, you know, the purpose of why I want to do this was just, I think he's, I think he could use a companion. I'd love to see him curled up with another cat on the couch playing around. Yeah. You want what the neighbors have. What's their last name? Jones? Yes, I want to give them the Joneses. Yes, sure. You want that Jones cat magic. We have another

neighbor that also has a dog and a cat. Why can't we be those Joneses? How does that cat and dog get along? Very well. Do they cuddle up together? Yes, they love each other. And they brought out more love in their children than they've ever known is what she described it to me. Oh, more. How so? Because now they had more poops to pick up? Yeah, probably. I think it's

just, you know, I think you expand your heart, right? I mean, I don't think. I'm going to make a note of that. Expand your heart. I mean, that's from the Grinch, right? Your heart expands to the size of, what is it? Yeah, his heart grew so many times. Three times. Dr. Seuss, you can bring Dr. Seuss into this. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. The JV Club with Janet Varney is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.

And remember, no running in the halls. Who would do the work of taking care of this dog, this hypothetical dog? Probably the parents. Probably us. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm talking about between the two of you. Oh, it's a shared job. I mean.

You know, someone's going to have to take the dog out for the walk at night. Someone's going to have to get up early in the morning, take the dog up for a walk then. And we know it's going to fall onto us for the most part. And we'll share it evenly. Alan, do you believe that that's true? That the dog duties in both spellings of the word duty will be shared equally? I think so. Yeah, that I'm not too worried about.

All right. You're not making a very good case for yourself, Alan. At this point, you should be saying, Elaine has never had a dog. She doesn't understand what's involved. I do. It's a completely extra level of care. I've had three kids. No, Elaine, I'm on your side.

Okay. I'm dutying on Alan right now. You should be saying that Elaine doesn't know what a dog entails, and you, Alan, it's going to fall to you, and it's not going to be fair. Not only are you not going to have the pleasure of watching two cats cuddle, but also you're going to be taking care of the dog and Elaine won't. But you're not making that argument for yourself. Well, that wouldn't be fair to Elaine.

And I've listened to this show so much that I hear couples and guys kind of try to make that claim similar. And I know that's just not true with Elaine. I know that she and it's similar. And I know that's just not true with Elaine. I know that she'll, we'll, we'll split the work. And, um, but yeah, I mean, we'll both have to be out there with a little plastic bag scooping up after, after the dog and it's fine. You know, it's, it's a thing, but as far as splitting the duties or who's responsible, yeah, it would be, it would be, it would call to us. Splitting the duties. I'd recommend alternating on the duties. Yeah, that's probably good rather than cutting them in half.

Yeah. Well, speaking of duties, there is the case, and I know this because you sent in some evidence that, um, that you will need to get more litter boxes. And Elaine, you sent in a, one of my favorite images in life, which is a cat sitting in a litter box trying to act like this is normal. One of the great, Jesse, have you ever had a cat? I've never had a cat myself. I have to say that, you know, there are a lot of rewards to owning a cat. There are

some downsides too. For example, you have a lot of rewards to owning a cat. There are some downsides, too. For example, you have a box of poop in your house. And when you see that box of poop, you're kind of reminded. It's like, oh, I am hosting a parasitic creature. My mind is no longer my own. But every now and then, you'll wander by and you see the cat in that litter box. And it's the greatest, it's the most hilarious thing. Because it is this creature that is obsessed with its own dignity being caught in the act of pooping or peeing.

And the look on its face is hilarious. It just pretends that you're not there. It's so humiliated. I don't know where you got this picture, Elaine, but this is exactly what this cat is like. I'm not here. But you sent in this picture of a litter box because why? Because when we adopted Muffin, I mean, like any new parents, right? Cat or human, you just wing it. So you get one litter box and you think that's enough for a cat right but then muffin starts to not poop in the litter box but outside the litter box which we couldn't figure out why like is it dirty is it smelly but then upon researching and talking to

the neighbor with the two cat she said well you didn't know cat needs a plus one box and whatever. And the cat's going to need to be in VIP. Yeah, exactly. Cats always order bottle service. That's right. Exactly. So apparently, yeah, if you have one cat, you'd have to have two litter boxes. And if you have two cats, you'd have to have three litter boxes.

Yeah. And lo and behold, when we got the second box, Muffin starts being normal and uses the litter box. Like weird things about cats. It's ridiculous. I've never, I've had cats forever. Sometimes one cat, sometimes two cats. I've only ever had one litter box. And you also have some evidence here that suggests that there is a cat expert who confirms this advice? Yes. If you Google cat and litter box problems, apparently there's a cat expert named Jackson Galaxy.

Jackson Galaxy? Who recommends 1.5 litter box per cat. I don't know where he derived a 1.5, but you just round it to two, I guess. I want to go to the pet store and go, yeah, can I get a half litter box, please? A demi litter box? I want to go to the pet store and ask to speak with Jackson Galaxy.

And then they reply, I'll get him. Also, this isn't a pet store. It's a bong store. And then you have a picture of Mins litter box which looks what's going on here elaine yeah that's another thing he's messy like cats are you know they'll just kick the litter everywhere in every direction i don't know what it is like burying or whatever it is it's everywhere So we try to get litter box with covers, but then he wouldn't use the litter box with cover or he would use it and then come out and just stepped in poo,

like just has poo on his paw and just steps everywhere. Yeah. I don't know. Cats are weird. So your solution to the one litter box is not enough problem was to take another full-size litter box and shove that in front of the other litter box in a narrow niche. Plus, it looks like, if I'm interpreting this picture right, you also have a Roby the Nintendo robot.

Looks like you got a little R2-D2 in there. Some kind of robot in there. It's a diaper. Well, you guys have kids. It's diaper genie before cat poop. So it's called pet genie. Oh, okay. I got you. All these photos, of course, will be available at the Judge John Hodgman show page at MaximumFun.org and on our Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. But

I'm not sure that you necessarily want to run to check out this photo of this litter hellscape. Where in your house did you shove all the the where is your poop niche in your house that you shoved all these things in or your apartment or whatever in our basement we have a we have a little extra room where the water heater is right yeah and we we and that's we build that specifically for muffin so he had his own space i mean i didn't even show you a picture we cut out a hole for him because he couldn't use the cat flap. He would freak out. And then so we cut a hole in the sliding door just so he could. He could just go in. I mean, this cat is like VIP. I'm no Jackson Galaxy though, you guys. I kind of feel like if I were to add an extra litter box, I might put it

in a different part of the basement so that muffin would have a choice instead of this. put it in a different part of the basement so that marvin would have a choice instead of this he has to walk through a litter box to get to a litter box yes yes but but the good thing is we can close that door all the way and with the little hole cut out he can go in and out and contain all of that litter box stuff in this little room just get rid of the litter boxes and just fill this whole thing with litter. It seems clear to me that the only answer to this is to get a dog to intimidate the cat. Yes, thank you. Exactly. To put it in its place. You don't like Muffin, do you, Elaine? I do love Muffin. I adore him. But he's a cat. I mean... Yes, there's a built-in contentious relationship there.

Exactly. Cats do not enjoy making you happy. Yeah, when I come home at the end of a long day of work, at least when I was going to work, there is no better feeling when your children are completely occupied with yelling at each other and your spouse is completely occupied with trying to manage the potential violence between your children to have a dog come up to the door who is absolutely thrilled that you're there. Yeah, I can see that. But it looks like on your evidence, Alan, that M muffin is is into you and at least one of your children you sent in some very snuggly photos yes what is this evidence of i i from the the the research i did fairly limited admittedly but some of the research is that cats can be pretty clingy if if they're in search of companionship it could one of the symptoms could be that they're kind of clingy. And Muffin likes me. He likes Elaine too.

And crawls up with us and sits on us. And I think I tolerate him a little more than Elaine does. There's a picture of him just lying on my son because he just wants to be there. He wants to get that attention. First of all, this is an enormous cat. Yeah, the cat is spread out on your son the way that the batter spreads out when you're pouring it into a pan to make a pancake.

It just goes all the way to the edges. Your son is under a blanket, so I cannot see the specific width of this child, but this cat is stretched way over past either side of this child, and it does not look like this child could get up if he wanted to. Yeah, and muffin is his excuse. I can do my homework because muffin is on me. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm familiar with that. In our house, you're sitting on the couch. Our cat, Lolo the dum-dum cat will sort of snuggle in between your legs if you're like if you have your legs out on the couch kind of like half lying on the couch and that and that means lolo has legs means the person who's on the couch cannot get up to do anything i must be weighted on hand and foot and legs cat law cat law I must be weighted on hand and foot and legs. Cat law.

Cat law. So you want this to stop. You want your cat to stop cuddling with you. I only think that could be a symptom of maybe him being so clingy. And I do like it. I don't mind it at all. He's very sweet. But he will sit right on top of me while I'm trying to do something. So this is evidence that he wants a little bit more social interaction than he's

getting. Yeah, exactly. And you send in some pictures of some clawed up chairs and stuff. What is this evidence of? Yeah, they can be destructive if they're acting out or they're in need of some social interaction. He can really go to town on some of the stuff we have that, I don't know if it just feels good to him or he just has this extra energy or whatever it is, but he will scratch away on certain furniture in the house. And again, it's another thing that could be a sign that more social interaction, another companion could be helpful. Maybe that's why he could be acting out.

It's a cat. It's going to scratch everything. Yeah, exactly. You have two cats that are going to double the scratches. Double the scratches, three times the litter box. Laying on every human being they can find. That may very well happen. Yes. I am not a lawyer, obviously.

There are some holes in this, but I just, I feel that perhaps maybe the scratches would go down. I don't know. It's possible they could go up, but maybe with this companionship, he would be more occupied. Maybe when I'm trying to make dinner, he doesn't do that thing around my legs where I'm trying to open the oven and I don't want to burn him, but he's just got to be all up in there. And I don't want to burn him, but he's just got to be all up in there. You know, maybe when if he has another kitty, you know, he won't be so intent on just ripping through that chair or that mat. Well, a dog will keep him occupied. Yeah, I mean, that's an argument as well, Alan.

I mean, a dog. True. Yeah, that's correct. That could do it. I still think that I think a cat might be more happy with a cat friend. And what do your kids say? Not that they matter, Elaine. I agree with you. Children don't matter.

They've ruined your life. They've introduced chaos. But you're about to introduce some more chaos. It's payback time. All right. And you would say a dog is greater payback. They would be angrier about a dog than a cat. No, they'll have to do chores, right? They're going to have to go take the dogs out for a walk. They're going to have to learn responsibility.

Okay. I think I heard everything that I need to in order to make my decision. Do you have any other evidence or thoughts that you want to add, Elaine, Alan? The only thing I can say is that I do think with cats, sometimes we do go overnight or we'll stay overnight places and we can take off and we can leave for a night with a cat and come back. You have three children, sir. No, I mean, we take the kids, obviously. Where are you going to go overnight? Camping, maybe. Yeah, maybe in another five years we'll see yeah there's nothing dogs hate more than camping okay that was a bad

bad example i was thinking you can leave the cat alone you can't leave a dog alone that was where i was trying to go with that because a dog will go crazy if you leave a dog overnight you know dog is more work dog is more work yeah yeah maybe you should just get a house plant my my son does suggest uh venus fly trap oh yeah those are kind of hard to hard to take surprisingly hard to take care of yeah you have to feed it bugs i think and i that's where i draw the line. Yeah. You have to find bugs. Around the house. Yeah. Basically, you become a pet for the Venus flytrap.

I don't know. You get a minion. Then, of course, it starts demanding blood. And eventually, you feed it your boss. Right. Right. Start singing songs. Yeah.

They call it the Dracula plant. It's the favorite plant of Dracula's. Number one. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm going to go climb into my litter room and make my decision. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Elaine, how do you feel about your chances in this case? I feel pretty good. I feel like it's a pretty straightforward case. You know, I think Alan, you know, has a lot of holes in his argument. So and luckily, I feel like my arguments are pretty strong. Alan, how are you feeling? will be good. Again, I know I didn't have like an ironclad case, but I just said what I thought was on my mind. And I felt like I gave a little bit of evidence and tried to make my point

and I leave it to the court. Do cats even like other cats? Sometimes. We've done some from what I've read. Yes, that's possible. Let's roll them bones and find out. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep. That's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10 minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can

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And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs. They're Made In, Made In. The Rohan duck. Made In, Made In. Riders of Rohan. Duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made in, made in. Made in has been supplying top chefs

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the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. So, Alan, you know, first of all, I want to apologize for batting you around like a caught mouse. You deserve better in my courtroom because I understand your, your feeling, your desire. I've seen cats cuddle up together. It's incredible. As a natural cat person, I want this in my life. I feel you. And, you know, when you go and check out Wendy Carlos, she also has a website that I don't think has been updated since 1998, but there are lots of photos of her multiple Siamese cats just hanging out together. But they are all related to each other and i in my limited experience

um the the cats that really love each other are tend to be litter mates not to say that it can't be done we had two cats for a number of years when I merged my household and my cat dowry with my wife's household and her cat dowry. I had Petey, she had Francis. They, over years, learned to be in the same room with each other. But it took a long time. Cats are social, as you pointed out in your evidence, and in time can be socialized to be together,

but it does take time. I mean, we honestly, it took years for Petey and Francis to be able to chill together, and I would bring my wife into the room so we could take a picture if they happened to be on the same bed together but like five feet apart that was a huge momentous occasion elaine you want a dog because you are an agent of chaos you if you're gonna up the chaos you're gonna go all the way and just go cross species. Like, let's just see what happens. And a dog obviously is a big question mark, you know,

because I've seen those Tom and Jerry cartoons. The dogs hate the cat. They want to eat the cat with their mouth. That was always a weird thing about Tom and Jerry. You know that you knew that cats wanted to eat the mouse. That's what cats do. But dogs do not go around trying to eat cats. But every time I still have it in my mind when that dog would see Tom the cat, the dog would put on a napkin around his neck and get a knife and fork. Gross. It's a gross image. There's a bulldog carving into a cat. That said, when I'm living on a desert island

and someone comes to rescue me, when I see them, they do look like a fully dressed turkey. So either way, what you are proposing is ruining your existing cat's life and making it scared and sad and, and weirded out. I mean, I'm going to go ahead and put Margaret on, on blast.

You don't know Margaret. Margaret used to work at books are magic where you can order sign and personalized copies of all my books for the holiday season. That's a plug books are magic.net. Margaret got a cat named it. One of the best cat names of all time, Birthday. Had the birthday of the cat. Birthday of the cat was so happy.

I would follow that Instagram, see that happy, big old cat just enjoying life. And then Margaret and her roommate went and got another cat, a little boy they call Baby. Now they only take pictures of Baby. Except in the background, you just see birthday sad she tries to convince me that it's getting better it's not getting better for birthday that's an only child who just got a sibling but worst dog could be the same dog could ruin muffin's life we don't know we don't know We don't know. We don't know. Oh, and yet so much of what life is about is making these choices not knowing what the outcome is going to be. When it was suggested to me that we have a second child, I was like, that's impossible. Who knows what's going happen and then someone said to me expand your heart some stupid stuff

like that we had that second child and guess what my heart expanded i trusted the other person with whom i was having children my wife why didn't i just say that i trusted my wife to know better or to at least know more than i did because she grew up with siblings and it worked out. Worked out great. Not always easy, but it worked out great. I don't know what moved you guys to have three children. Come on. It's too much.

Agent of chaos. Jesse, you know. Yeah, I agree. As the parent of three. It's very hard for me to appreciate, but what you're doing is correct. You both, you want to expand the chaos in your life and see what happens. You're willing to roll the dice. Alan, your cases are equally strong because essentially they're based on kind of nothing.

You kind of just want another cat. Elaine kind of just wants another dog. You could leave well enough alone and be perfectly happy. But you want to flip this table over one way or the other. And the problems with cats and an extra cat or an extra dog in terms of what they're going to cause to your household to happen, what's going to happen to Muffin's quality of life and yours, equally unknown, basically. I think that the compromise position here is a dog. I think it's the better move. Here's why, Alan, and I'm sorry. I want to see two cats cuddling more than anything. I want that in my life so hard.

But it's so hard to achieve. I've looked at Muffin. Muffin is a huge cat. Muffin clearly can hold his own. Muffin is not going to be pushed around. He can push back on that dog. That dog starts bringing out that knife and fork. Muffin is at a time in his life when he is extremely playful

he is a teen cat as Elaine pointed out if he were an elderly cat I would feel less inclined to go along with this I also noticed that your litter situation is a hell hole and I don't think you should add to it. I think it's time that at least one animal

in your house poop outside. Cause this is not, it's not gonna get better in that litter nook that you've fashioned for muffin. And I think you need to rethink all of your litter situation. That's shoving one box, one litter box rethink all of your litter situation. Shoving one litter box in front of another litter box is not, I've never met Jackson Galaxy, but I'm sure that is not what Jackson Galaxy meant by getting another litter box. You might as well be putting one on top of the other.

Now, what I would suggest, this is an extra compromise position, is see if in Seattle you have the opportunity to foster dogs that are waiting to be adopted. I'm sure you've considered this. Yes. You could foster one or two dogs just to see what happens with Muffin. And maybe you'll get lucky and maybe one of these foster dogs and Muffin will have a love connection, and then you enjoy what's called a failed foster. You just keep it. You'll be doing good in your community while you do it,

and you'll have a real-life, on-the-job training of what it will be like, what the emotional and chore landscape is going to be with these two animals. So I would, I would suggest you look into that. But then I, you know, look, this is the other part of parenting, right? Our children grow, they move out, life proceeds. We lose family members. Muffin dies. It will happen.

Sorry, Muffin. That It will happen. Sorry, Muffin. That's when you move in, Alan. Get two cats. Let Muffin have the greatest life Muffin can have. You've already made a commitment to this cat. You can try adding on a foster dog. That's my recommendation. See if that enlarges not only your heart,

but Muffin's. Muffin deserves a chance to enjoy an enlarged heart. Sounds like a condition. My dog literally has an enlarged heart. Oh, which one? Coco. She has to take pills. They're beef flavored.

Oh, Coco and her beef flavored pills sounds like a great Dr. Seuss book. Yeah. Fulfill and honor your commitment to giving him the best life possible. And then should a natural transition come along? I don't care if you have a dog at that point. You can go ahead and get two cats because the dog is going to be thrilled. Two cats, brother and sister, brother and brother, sister and sister. Sure.

Right? Yep. And then everyone gets what they want, except your children, which is the whole point. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge Johnodgman exits the courtroom alan how are you feeling great i knew it would be a good judgment and it was a good compromise and uh you know i i think uh this was a lot of fun i like how hard alan is working not to be

a jerky husband on this show he has clearly clearly heard the inflexible, unheeding husbands in past heterosexual married relationships on Judge John Hodgman and has resolved to take a different path. Never turns out well for those guys. And yeah. Elaine, how are you feeling? for those guys. And yeah. Elaine, how are you feeling? Awesome. I am so glad he made the right call.

I've not, I didn't know what to expect coming in because, you know, Alan loves Judge John Hodgman and I felt like I didn't know as much about it, but I feel like he's wise beyond the rule of law. So I'm very happy. Well, Alan and Elaine, thanks for joining us on Judge john hodgman it was great to talk to you if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-o-d-c-a-s-t-i hmm are you trying to put the name of the podcast there yeah i'm trying to spell it but it's tricky let me give it a try okay if you need a laugh and you're on the go call s-t-o-p-p-p-a-d-i it'll never fit no it will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the

go try s-t-o-p-p-p-d-c-o-o ah we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. cat or dogical imperative. If you'd like to name a future episode, be sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, where we regularly put out calls for submissions. You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJHO. And check out the Maximum Fun subreddit

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justice where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment luke says my wife insists that the park is down the road from us despite the fact that it is both uphill and northward i contend it is up the road this is something that I was always mystified by. You know, Jesse, that I'm a weird Anglophile, among other things. And how it is convention. It's a lover of weird angles. That's right. I like oblique angles.

I like cute angles. I like them all. In England, they would always say up toondon no matter what direction you were coming from and i couldn't understand that until i appreciated that in the imagination of a person living in london london was above everything else it is a it is a centering of itself such that everything else is below it and that i can only imagine is is why Luke's wife says down the road because their house is the center of their lives and everything else leads down from it into some gutter that is not them.

Whereas Luke situates himself in a rational Cartesian grid that includes all points equally, and therefore describes where the park is via cardinal direction, north, south, east, west, with the common convention that if it is north of you, you are going up to it. I prefer the latter. A relational system where none of us is above the other. It's easier to understand when you put it that way. You're actually creating a rational system of direction that another person could follow.

So I'm going to tell Luke's wife, that park is up the road as the crow flies. There's so much as the crow flies controversy on Reddit this week. Oh my goodness. People are upset you didn't give drive times, apparently. That's it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. No case is too small. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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