Judge John Hodgman - Cease and De-List

Episode Date: February 28, 2024

Tyler likes to make Top 5 lists about anything and everything. But Abby says his list-making is number one annoying, with a bullet. Who's right? Who's wrong?We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! And follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman.Thanks to reddit user u/bobopolis5000 for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, cease and delist. Abby brings the case against her husband, Tyler. Tyler loves to make top five lists about anything and everything. He especially loves quizzing strangers about their top five lists. He says he's just trying to get to know people. Abby says he's number one annoying with a bullet.

Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. One, any song by the Mountain Goats. Two, any quote from Augustus and I, Claudius. Three, the third man theme by Anton Karras.

Four, the Rainbow Connection is sung by Tom Waits. Five, I was thinking we could take care of it right here in Brainerd. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Please, Abby and Tyler, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. Yes. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's not in my top five cast members of the movie Baby Mama? Wow. Yes. There's a lot of good Maura Tierney's in that. I love Maura Tierney. She's my favorite. Jason Manzoukas is in it. It's fair. Okay. I got it. I know that there are other people. Tina Fey, Steve Martin is in it.

There's a lot of great people in Tina Fey, Steve Martin is in it. There's a lot of great people in Baby Mama. You're great in Baby Mama. Amy Poehler. You didn't even mention Amy Poehler. Is she in the top five? Didn't even know. Amy Poehler's out of the top five. Had to make room for Manzoukas. Okay, Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Can I even? Because I think I'm dead. I mean, there's a lot of great people there's a lot of great people in Baby Mama. You're, you're great in Baby Mama. Many times I've mentioned to you how great you are in Baby Mama. It's true. You really are. You're hilarious. I'm not even in the top 30 in that film. I know. I know. I don't even like my uterus. That's a, that's an obscure cultural

reference to Baby Mama. But speaking of obscure cultural references, Abby and Tyler, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors can either of you name the piece of culture that i did reference as i entered the courtroom abby what's your guess high fidelity interesting high fidelity film or novel the film film all right i'll put that into the guest book um by writing it in the air with my left hand as you can see if you're watching us on video right now on youtube or anywhere else where you see videos tyler what's your guess my guess is colonel gentleman's list of things not to do from season five episode nine of uh theure Brothers. I really, really love this guess. Hang on. I'm going to go the extra mile and pretend to write this one down on paper.

In general, I love any Venture Brothers guess that cites chapter and verse. Just the idea that a Venture Brothers fan doesn't just say Venture Brothers, but. Wow. It's on a list. What a couple of guesses. What a couple of guesses. All of them are wrong. Oh.

I mean, I got to give Tyler credit for pandering to my great love of the Venture Brothers. Great show. Go team Venture. And I got to give Abby credit for making a very reasonable guess, which is High Fidelity, the movie. And I was inclined to make a quote from High Fidelity, the movie. I actually had a quote lined up from High Fidelity, the novel that it's based on by Nick Hornby.

Did I do and say these things? Yes, I did. Are there mitigating circumstances? Not really. And before you judge, although you have probably already done so, go ahead and write down the four worst things you've done to a partner, even if, especially if your partner doesn't know about them. Don't dress things up or try to explain them. Just write them down in a list in the plainest language possible. Finished? Okay. So who's the a-hole now? Question mark. That was

what I was going to go with from the novel High fidelity of course both the novel and the film are based on a person who obsessively makes top five lists of the top five albums top five songs about xyz or whatever it is anyway you're wrong though abby sorry because what i was referencing was my rough top five obscure cultural reference categories over the years. I've quoted many songs by the Mountain Goats. I feel like I've quoted from iClaudius. I don't know. I think about it a lot.

I've certainly talked about the third man a lot, but I don't think I've ever quoted the theme. Maybe I've sung it. And maybe I'll sing it at the end of this episode. We love to hear sung zither. Sing zither. That's what I say. Maybe I'll sing zither in the style of Tom Waits,

another great obscure cultural reference point. And the fifth one, or the first, depending on how you're counting, I was thinking we could take care of it right here in Brainerd, which was a movie quote. That's what I remember as being the first obscure cultural reference way back when that started it all.

And that quote was from, it was from Fargo. Now, who seeks justice in this court? Is it you, Abby? It is. Abby, you take issue with Tyler's top five lists, correct? I do, yes. Yeah. And Tyler, what kind of top fives are we talking about?

What are your top five top fives? So my top five top fives, probably the one that really broke Abby was when I referenced my top like five to ten boutique hotels in the Midwest. Five to ten. Yeah. Yeah. It adds sometimes and it gets worse and worse as it goes.

Probably the number two is probably things in movies that should not make me hungry but in fact make me very hungry so number one on that for example is the t-rex eating the goat in both jurassic park and jurassic world is a delightful crunch at the end of it slurping up that just is delightful another one would be like uh tempopo uh with the Yakuza seafood scene, if you've seen that film. Not only did I see Tempopo, I worked it at the Coolidge Corner Movie Theater. I saw it about 19 times. That movie rules. What a great movie.

I've seen the movie all the way through at least two or three times, and I saw the beginning and end countless times. That scene makes me also very hungry. Jesse, this one might be for you. Abby's a big sports fan. That scene makes me also very hungry. Jesse, this one might be for you. Abby's a big sports fan. So to bond on this, we were sitting, it was almost like going to a sporting event with my dad. I was like, oh, who do you think the most snuggly baseball player is?

Because, you know, I'm not a big baseball fan, but watching them, you're like, sometimes you just, like, when they give them hugs, they look like they're so safe and comfortable. And so I started listing off top five snuggly baseball players. And who are they? So my number one is Willie Adamas. For the Milwaukee Brewers, it's a little bit of a favoritism, but he like gives big hugs.

He's always celebrating. He has a beautiful smile. I would have guessed that if you went with a hometown favorite, it would have been Rowdy Tellez, former Milwaukee Brewers first baseman, Rowdy Tellez. So Rowdy Tellez is up there. He is actually number two. Okay. Wait a minute. Give me some of the top five boutique hotels in the Midwest. Yeah. So the number one for me is the Hewing Hotel in Minneapolis. I feel like you should be counting down from five. Okay. Counting down from five? Yeah. I'm dinging you for your

technique anyway. Number five, Hewing Hotel. Number four, the Charmant's in La Crosse, Wisconsin. Number three, the Surtley Hotel in Des Moines. And then this one, number four, is a really special one just for us. It's Howie's Tackle Shop in Sturgeon Bay in northern Wisconsin. That's a hotel? Well, it's a tackle shop mixed with a motel. All right. But there's something, you know,

they were so excited to have people there that, you know, there's also a special sign there that says there is a fine, like a $250 fine for cleaning your fish in there. And that's just like something truly unique to, you know, northern Wisconsin. They should have that sign in every hotel room. Honestly, I think the surest sign that you're in a good hotel is when they're excited.

Someone came and you are in the Midwest. In fact, we find you in Milwaukee. And you are in the Midwest. In fact, we find you in Milwaukee. Can you name the top five places in Milwaukee that I have been? The buildings that I've been in, in Milwaukee? Top five? Pabst Theater.

That's probably one of them. Yep, that's one. That's definitely one. Let's see. Pfister Hotel, probably. Pfister Hotel is definitely one. Haunted Pfister Hotel. Have you been there? I don't remember where I stayed.

So let's say yes, that's two. Okay. Honestly, I can only think of four. The Milwaukee Art Museum. No. Really? Okay. Milwaukee Public Museum?

That's a nice. No museums. Public Market, though. Oh, Public Market. I've been to the Public Market. That's three. Four, Turner Hall Ballroom. Oh.

That's a good one. And five, which is actually number one, with a laser beam directly from Jamesames bond's uh uh 1970s wrist watch safe house oh oh nice you know what i'm talking about the weird dad uh cold war bar yeah absolutely oh this is fun abby are you married to tyler i am yes can i marry him i it might take some work off my hands. Yeah. I'm enjoying it a lot.

Why are you annoyed by the top fives? I think they have a place like bonding with people who also like top fives. Like this seems to have been really good for you guys and your relationship. Yeah. Weird dudes. Other weird dudes. I think it can come off as a little, not aggressive, but restraining if you're meeting someone new who doesn't like ranking things that they like. And this has happened in your life, right? Tyler has...

Yes. He's used it as a tool for making connections with my coworkers, friends that he hasn't met before. How do they react when he whips out the top fives? Some people are on board with it, and I'm fine with him continuing to make lists with them. Some people are unnerved by it, and it's never gone terribly wrong. I just think it can sometimes not be the jumpstart to a friendship that he's- What do you do for a career? I'm an actuary. Oh, really?

And your co-workers are actuaries? Most of them, yeah. I mean, because what you're doing is you're analyzing risk, right? Yeah. But in Tyler's conversation, I could see how an actuary might be a little bit flummoxed. Yes. The worst example I can think of was someone was talking to him

who doesn't really like video games, but she had one that she enjoyed and was trying to kind of bond over that. And he asked something like. Top five 1990s dinosaur games. The way you finished that sentence made me flashback immediately to when Harry met Sally. It's like one of those interstitials, the married couples finishing each other's sentences. I loved it. All right. And what was her response?

It was a blank pause for a few seconds, followed by, I don't understand the question. So to be fair in this case, she was actively trying to remember what video game she was trying to play. And I was trying to share with her like here's my top five does this do any of these ring a bell do you have like some that you remember uh okay you were using it more as a prompt than as a quiz how did she how did your co-worker take it though abby she was really confused uh and didn't really want to continue the video game talk anymore. And they're friends now, but it took the introduction of her now husband really liking Tyler for her to kind of come around on the fact that he's a good guy and can have normal conversations with people. This is one of

those moments where you thought you were friends with someone the whole time and then you probably discover on a natural level. You just learned. You just learned. It happened at this moment. Yeah. She just decided to be friends with you yesterday, finally. How long ago was it that the top five 90s dinosaur video games came up? When was this event? Seven or eight years ago. Right, right. It was pretty soon after I started full time here.

You thought you were pals on that night and it took a while. But what are your top five 90s dinosaur games? Tyler? So Turok has to be, the Turok series has to be up there. I'm not arguing. Okay. Then there are some Jurassic Park games that are kind of fun in that kind of ridiculous way where there's kind of like they haven't seen the movie Jurassic Park yet. So it's sort of like, here's a description of what we're going to make.

Make a video game from it. And so there's just like weird games where you're just collecting eggs for no reason. Sure. And then there's also like a Discovery Channel kind of like make the dinosaur hatch.

And then you get like a full 3D model. And back in the 90s, that was like mind blowing for me. So far, that's three. This was a long time ago. Sometimes it's hard to remember these top fives. All right. Yeah, that's three. This was a long time ago. Sometimes it's hard to remember these top fives. All right. Yeah, this top five is not a top five. This is a nerd challenge.

This is a name five 90s dinosaur games. This is not what are your five favorite dinosaur games. By the way, Yoshi is a dinosaur, and he's in lots of good games. Abby, I'm sorry about this. I just have to, let's steer this ship back to you. I apologize. Well, I think Jesse landed on one of my concerns, which is that if you prompt someone unsuspectingly with a top five list, you're not going to get a top five list. You're going to get just some random assortment of stuff they remember so i think the premise is is skewed yeah if i may i do feel like i've found a way to evolve it to the point where it's not direct and more kind of natural uh it does involve wine quite a bit of wine and gin but so this involves uh kidnapping me and putting me in your basement and feeding me a bunch of gin and then demanding my top five characters in Oddworld Abe's Odyssey.

You do ever play Oddworld Abe's Odyssey? I have. Yeah, of course. Abby, you ever play Oddworld Abe's Odyssey? No idea what you're talking about. No, I know. I'm sorry. I really apologize for all of this.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning, causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a sound to happen. Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound.

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on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. So does this happen at parties, at mixers? What's the situation where this happens, Abby? Yeah, it would usually be at like a happy hour. And why are you doing this, Tyler? You know, so I came to milwaukee we both went to university of wisconsin eau claire and abby graduated a year ahead of me um and so i followed her to milwaukee and by the time she was here she had all these like work friends and i was just starting to

possess a non-profit area and so when we're going to all these parties at her work i was just trying to find something that i could connect with people. And I'm kind of it's hard to socialize with actuaries because at that point in time, they're all they're talking about is how many exams they've passed. So and I don't know what the exams are. They're all letters and numbers. That's like we passed Q on September 4th. How are you doing on a B T, or something along those lines? You're aware you're sitting next to an actuary right now, right?

Yes. Yes, sir. Yes. And you're married to this person. Yes. Abby, how do you feel about this actuary slander that's coming at you? It hurts. Oh. He's not wrong, especially early in our careers when so much of our workday was focused on passing exams. That was kind of all we talked about and that wasn't fair to him,

but we're all adults now with other hobbies and pets and kids and other things to talk about. So I don't know that that is still a rationale that he can. Tyler, to be generous to you, would it be fair to say that you felt like a little bit of an outsider at these group mingles, these work mles yeah it would be yeah you're trying to make yourself comfortable by bringing up topics that you're interested in and understand i so usually how it goes is i'm trying to look for like a keyword or something like i don't like doing lists unless i know the people kind of well that I'm interested in. I usually try to do as much as possible.

I don't know a person sort of lists that come up in conversation. Or if someone is an actuary, what are your top five surprisingly common causes of death? That was actually one of the first things I asked her when we first started dating. She didn't think we were dating at that point, but I did. So yeah, that was one of the first things so you asked abby on one of your early dates from your point of view top five causes of death is that right yeah surprisingly common surprisingly common all right abby let's hear it uh more than one person has been killed when they got hit in the head by a tractor same thing with turtles being hit on the head all right i'm gonna say right now abby the the tractor was a good lead off okay you know what

i mean because i was like it doesn't surprise me that people are getting hit in the head with tractors but turtles you really got me there Maybe turtles is the place to stop. Top two. Those are the top two. And this didn't feel like fun dating banter to you? Do you know, it didn't. It felt like I was being quizzed in one of my classes. And Tyler mentioned that you didn't think you were on a date at all. Is this when you decided this is not a date? There was a period where he thought if we met for lunch at the cafeteria, that counted as a date. And I was informed later that we had actually been dating for a while. Abby, does he continue to ask you top fives? Yes. How often does this come up? It's really when he's bored and I'm not bored and he would like me to stop doing what I find

engaging and do what he finds engaging. What kinds of things do you find engaging? Well, we go to a lot of baseball games. Oh. And I really enjoy that. And he enjoys it for a little while, but then needs some other stimulation. I enjoy the snacks. What's the top five baseball snacks?

So I guess I don't know if we could cut. I don't drink. But one of the things that's really nice at our stadium is you can get a baseball bat full of beer. That is really nice. It's a real bonding moment. That's sweet. We get giant German style pretzels here. Cheese curds, fried cheese curds, which is fantastic.

We also have a really good sort of like um milwaukee style pizza place so like what's milwaukee style pizza so it's basically like graham cracker crust a very paper thin crust and we put cheese all the way to the edge where there's basically no like crust at all uh not great not actual graham cracker no no yeah that a sweet crust. Okay. Not like a key lime pie. Let's ask Tyler. Tyler, is it actually a key lime pie? Is that a Milwaukee style pizza? No, not quite.

It's a graham cracker crust, key lime pie filling, and then the cheese goes right to the edge. Goes right to the edge. Abby, what baseball team are you watching over there in Milwaukee? Oh, the Milwaukee Brewers. Of course. Duh. One of the nicest logos in sports for sure. It's an M and a B that take the form of a baseball glove.

It's a little visual puzzle. Exactly. One of the top five sports logos in the world, I would say. I did think about that. Well, we all know what the number one is, and I'll quiz you on it later to see if you win. But Abby doesn't enjoy when you do this, Tyler, but you have provided some evidence that suggests that the people in your D&D group really enjoy it.

Correct. These are people you play Dungeons and Dragons with, right? Correct. Yes. All right. And we have some testimonials here. with right correct yes all right and we have some testimonials here austin aka arm it the half-orc says people want to know the best not the blandest nothing is truly known until it's documented and peer-reviewed and such lists allow for both that's some half-orc speak if i've ever heard one

matt who plays jerak or zirak how do you pronounce this character's name he pronounces it chark say it again chark chark okay who is what a polish paladin yeah i think kind of pretty much that's pretty i had it right lists offer a point of comparison to understand the relativity of a subject within the list exclamation point jake who plays falk greenle. That's got to be an elf, right? That is actually a Fulborg. It's like a cowman, basically. A fakeborg? A Fulborg. A Fulborg. Okay.

Someone's going to yell at me. Is this a Wisconsin-only rule? The cowman? Nope. But they were all very, very excited about it to show it off. Yeah. Wisconsin, of course,

is the birthplace of Dungeons & Dragons. Lake Geneva, Wisconsin is where it was first played. Gary Gygax's hometown. show it off yeah wisconsin of course is the birthplace of dungeons and dragons lake geneva wisconsin is where it was first played gary gygax's hometown one of the top five towns for inventing role-playing games so it sounds like in between uh in between moves on the uh in your dungeons and dragons group you're all making top five lists is that right yeah so we have um there's different types of lists that we make so they do do sort of, uh, if someone's late, running late, we do about 15 minutes of tier lists. So like, for example, I'm just going to put one out there.

It starts with S as the top S a B C D F. So just to clarify for listeners, you're talking about tiers, T I E R. Correct. Something is top tier is S tier. This is some, i think there's some video game parlance that's made its way into common language now right i believe it came from like japanese sort of style games yes right and then a b c tier are decreasing below s right so s is the top tier so s is like dicktown a is like venture brothers whoa wow i really like dicktown thank you i appreciate the

plug but you know i'm friends with those venture brothers i do you all you were really good in that as well i really liked your character thank you all right i think i've heard everything i need to in order to make my decision uh and the category is animated shows s tier is dicktown a is venture brothers b is what uh b i would say could be like a south park right it's not for everyone um and it can have when you're looking back like i think uh venture brothers has like a kind of timeless quality to it i think they don't do too many references that like age out but south park does very like their whole thing is like very up-to-date timely right right and uh dicktown only makes references to my weird only childhood which i love and abby do i understand correctly that you led tyler to this

dungeons and dragons group somehow or encouraged him to play encouraged him he knew the people already right you had heard that there was a local Dungeons and Dragons group where everyone liked making lists. It's actually not local. They all live in different states. And so it's a nice way for them to keep in touch. And I thought maybe he would channel his list making there. And that has not been the case. Abby, how often when Tyler asks for a top five, is he asking for a top five that anyone can participate in easily? And how often is he asking for what I would characterize as a sort of nerd challenge? What are your top five 90s dinosaur video games? Probably a pretty even split because Tyler is a big fan of

nerd culture like video games and movies and obscure movies, things like that. But he's also into cooking, so he'll often ask people like, like pizza from your neck of the woods is a pretty common one. Or what do you like to cook at home? So I think it's an even mix.

It's not just him trying to reflect glory upon himself for having these preloaded top five lists. It's very rarely. He's only doing that half the time, apparently. It's an even mix, John. When you're not around other people, Tyler, how often do you think about top five lists? I don't often think about like Troy or whatever. Most guys are apparently supposed to be thinking of.

I think of random lists. That's my like half the time or 75% of the time. I think of them quite a bit. I think it's just sort of stem from like, if I'm not able to have like a conversation or keep up with people in conversations i try to listen but if it's sort of focused in something that was really not meant for me i'll start thinking about things like that and i'm also just thinking about it quietly to yourself yeah if there's an opening or if i know like for example her friend's husband's really into it too

if he's there and he's also bored, I'll talk with him about it. So let me understand. When you're in a social function and people are talking about something that you don't immediately relate to or understand, you'll tune out and start thinking of top five lists and then look for a chance to insert them into the conversation? No, not quite like that.

More like... Kind of what you said, but okay. Yeah, if I could correct, I guess it's more like kind of that's kind of what you said yeah okay yeah if i could correct i guess it's more like gossip abby has like a lot of work gospel at this point that's kind of replaced the sort of tests tyler be quiet abby yeah give me give me some of the actuary goss what's happening What's the table, T? If I promise you that we will edit it out by playing some music from Abe's Odyssey while you're giving me one piece of gossip. Okay. And we won't release it, but I want to hear one piece of good gossip so I can evaluate how good this gossip is. Okay.

Is that reasonable? All right. Play some music from Abe's Odyssey. I don't care if we have the rights. Play it. Well. Wait, why is it? We can't ask any questions.

We can't reveal anything. It's just incredible, though. That was pretty good, right? That one was good. I heard Jennifer Marmer gasp like a fish out of water. I gasped too. Wow. I don't even want to reveal the person's name, but let me just say, if I were trying to come up with the name of a character in a fictional story who was an actuary, I couldn't have thought of a better name than this person's name. This is like the dumbest reason to get fired. Pretty much. Actually, you're not going to get fired. No one will ever hear this goss.

It's a good goss, though. I don't know. Tyler, why don't you just get up in the goss? That sounds fun. You know, it's because I'm so she does sometimes say, like, you cannot tell anyone about this. Yeah. But if it's i'm talking about in a social function when you're hanging hanging with the actuaries i mean i i sometimes do or simply ask questions about their work and attempt to understand it i do um it's sort of one of those situations where i'll say like oh what's up with this person and they'll be like oh he's the like you better not reveal anything that gets fired right now let's just call him the custodian because that's not someone they ever talk about.

Tell you what, we'll play the music again. Go ahead. All right. So I can say names then? Yeah, go for it. Yeah, so... Oh, God. And then they'll continue on with the conversation kind of thing. All right, we're out of the music now.

Your goss was not as good as Abby's goss, sorry. It's not my goss. I know, but maybe you should make it your goss. You know what I mean? What I heard in that redacted bit of gossip was that Tyler is trying to participate in the gossip and what he needs to understand what's going on is being elided.

He's being poo-pooed. They're saying, I'll talk about that with you later. Right now, we're moving too fast through this gossip sea. And he's being left behind in his little clinging to a buoy. Yeah, Jesse's right. I mean, we can't reveal what Tyler said, Abby. But he did end the story with him asking a question and you saying to him, we'll talk about that later.

My question to you is, do you talk about it later with him? Yeah, well, yeah, I'll catch him up in the car ride home. But you don't work to include him in the conversation as it occurs. Yeah, in those kinds of examples, no, I probably wouldn't stop the conversation and catch him up on everything. Do you feel excluded, Tyler? No, you know, because I want to see my wife, like, happy. What are your top five moods of your wife? Whiskey is my number one.

It's not a mood. Oh, it's a mood. Fair enough. You're right. I take it. I stand corrected. I rarely say it, but you're right. Abby, do you think that Tyler needs an in-person friend group?

Wow. Probably. Does he have one in Milwaukee? Abby, do you think that Tyler needs an in-person friend group? Wow, probably. Does he have one in Milwaukee? I mean, we know he's got his Zoom D&D pals. Not a group. There are individuals. Right. And there are often couple friends.

So it's the two of us hanging out with two other people. That one husband really likes him, right? Yes. So the other husband makes lists quite a bit, and he made a list of friends that he enjoys playing video games with. And Tyler was number one on the list. Oh, phew. I thought the story was going to go someplace else. If I were to ban Tyler from doing top fives at parties, how would you suggest that he get to know people? parties, how would you suggest that he get to know people? I mean, he can ask follow-up questions. Like if someone says, I played this board game I really liked, he can ask, you know, what other types of board games do you like? He just can't initiate? Or I would prefer if it's just less structured. When you originally submitted the dispute, you said that this was a quote, cute way, end quote, for Tyler to bond with people. First of all, you have to admit Tyler's pretty cute.

Yeah, he's pretty cute. He's pretty cute. When does it get not cute? Well, I think it's cute when he's doing it with people who have already agreed to making lists with him in the future. It's less cute when he has surprised someone who is unprepared. Has anyone in your work group or otherwise has been ambushed by one of Tyler's top fives ever complained to you about it privately? You don't have to say the name.

No, they wouldn't complain to me about it. It's more just like in the moment you can tell they weren't prepared and don't really feel like engaging in this sort of conversation. When he goes into a top five with one of your work colleagues, how do you feel? Worried. colleagues, how do you feel? Worried? Not that it's going to go poorly, but that it's going to be awkward and no one's going to really enjoy where it went. And Tyler's not going to feel happy about it in the car ride home. How badly has it ever gone? What's the worst case scenario? The worst case was just the person who flat out said, I don't understand the question and then didn't engage any further. And but that's a one data point. As an actuary, you have to

set that aside as an outlier, don't you think? It's not statistically relevant, it seems to me. Sorry. It was an outlier in that she was so direct about it. But there have been plenty of other occasions where people have sort of gave him maybe one or two and then mentally wandered off. And this is mortifying to you? No, I just think it is hampering his relationship building with them. And you would like me to order that Tyler not do top fives with you? Yes. How often does it come up in your lives? I would estimate once a month. Tyler, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule? You know, I think it's important. I agree with Abby with sort of like having it be like a more natural thing and know that people want to do sort of lists with me.

I can agree to that. I do. Abby is kind of keeps cards close to her chest sometimes about her day. So I, I sometimes use these lists, like if we go on like a vacation, right? Like to sort of get more out of her because she's hard to read sometimes. So I use these things to sort of like get a quick way of getting some ideas out of how something went or if she enjoyed something or learned something new about her so if you want to know like how her day was you say uh what are the top five paranoid thrillers

starring robert redford like that or do you just ask her questions about her day i guess i for the daily things i ask more about her day but bigger yeah yeah okay i see a point'd ask more about her day, but bigger. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I see your point. Yeah. Ask her about her day. Abby, do you feel that Tyler wants more chat from you than you feel comfortable giving? Like, is there an introvert extrovert? Like some people like more silence in a couple, you know what I mean? Like, and some people can't stand silence.

Yeah. I think that's certainly an element of it. What are the top five ways that it affects your relationship? What are your top five feelings about this? You've probably picked up that I'm the quieter one here and Tyler will take a story and run with it to the point where most people would have wanted to stop talking a while ago. people would have wanted to stop talking a while ago. And when Tyler gets going on a topic in mixed company, how do you feel? Good. I think it's, you know, if he's talking about something that he's really excited about,

I think people are pretty engaged by it. He's very funny. He's a really charming person. I agree with you. I would like to marry him if anything happens in either of our marriages. I'd like him at the very least to give me a Rowdy Tellez style hug. He's a little short for that, but he could try. So in the ideal ruling that you submitted, you had two parts. One is that Tyler not be allowed to do top fives with your coworkers and that also he'd not be allowed to do top fives with you. Is one of those more important than the other? So he's allowed to do top five lists with me. I like hearing about his. Right. That's the price of marriage.

I do not want to be asked for my top five lists. Ever? Yeah, I think ever. If I were to ban top five requests from you or your coworkers, which would you pick? Which is more important to you? Probably me, but I feel like a jerk for saying it. That's okay. I'm just, you know, it's a, I mean, it's a false dichotomy. I could, I could order both. I was just trying to get at the heart of what, where, where you are most bothered by this top fivedom. I would say I'm more annoyed when I'm asked to provide my top five list than I am worried when he asks a coworker for theirs. Abby, would you be willing to provide your husband with information about your feelings

and experiences in a non-list format? I think I could accommodate that, yeah. Tyler, to get a real world sense of how this works in your relationship, before I go into my chambers, would you please ask Abby for a top five list of your choosing, perhaps for the last time in your relationship? I'm so curious what this is going to be. I guess top five things our cats have done that have really bugged you. Oh, why do I hate our cats? No, well... I'll allow it.

It's a challenging one. They've been keeping me up for days now. Is that really the one you want to ask, Tyler, or the one you feel safest asking? Safest one. Yeah. What's the five things you love about my brother the most? You know what, Abby?

Don't answer. I'll be back in a moment. I'm going to go into my chambers and think it over. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Tyler, how are you feeling about your chances? People always say this on this podcast, but I was feeling really good. And now I'm a little bit nervous.

What are the top five reasons you're nervous? Number one, my family often debated at the dinner table rather than talking about our day. So I have a fear of sort of debate. The next one is Abby was like a debate champion in high school and is very good at it still so i came in a little bit nervous about that the next one would probably be abby's very charming uh oftentimes when people meet her who are my friends are like oh you should you should bring abby around to hang out which kind of feels weird sometimes um the final one is i always kind of want what's what's best uh for her so or like what she wants

so like if i win and she has to keep doing this stuff i'm worried about the thought of her like having to engage with me on things that she does not like actively doing. Abby, how are you feeling about your chances? I am also nervous. I feel like Tyler and the judge hit it off more than I expected. I'm also worried I'm going to get fired, but that's fine. I'm sure it won't happen. Did you have reason to believe previously that the judge might like lists? Like, for example, that he wrote a list of

500 hobo names in his first book. That had crossed my mind, yeah. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more

is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a break from the case. I know that you're headed out on the Joko cruise soon. Yes, Jesse, I am packing my steamer trunk as we speak, including my Scrabble set and my Yahtzee set and my Monopoly deal set, because those are three games that I enjoy playing. And if you have not yet booked your cabin on the Joko Cruise, go to jokocruise.com,

check out with code HODGMAN24. They will alert me that this has happened. And if you wish, I offer my services as an opponent to you in Scrabble or those other games in the crow's nest on a night of your choosing and don't be intimidated. I haven't played Scrabble meaningfully in years, but I love playing the game and it would be fun to play with you. And one way to make sure that you have time to do that with me on the cruise, go to jococruise.com, use code Hodgman24. And

even if you're not interested in playing Scrabble with me, there's going to be so much fun for you on this cruise. Our friend Jean Gray is going to be on the cruise. Our fellow Max Funster, Janet Varney, is going to be performing on the cruise. We have so many talented musicians, comics, writers. Go to jococruise.com and see the lineup. It's really amazing. And it's been years since I've been on the cruise. I'm really excited to get back there and see old friends and

meet new ones. Maybe some of you over the Scrabble table up there at the crow's nest at the top of the ship. That's jococruise.com, code Hodgman24. Jesse Thorne, what do you have got going on? Well, I'm just keeping an eye on the MaxFunDrive coming just around the corner in mid-March. I'll tell you, this has been a year of watching a lot of media ventures go out of business, not just in the podcast space, but across all of publishing. They say it's a time of contraction in the biz of show. And I can't emphasize enough how incredible it is that MaxFun has been held aloft by our membership. So MaxFunDrive is a celebration of our members,

a celebration of becoming a member of Maximum Fun. It's going to be a really great time. We're going to have special bonus episodes and stuff. I know me and Jordan are going to do a live show called The Cavalcade of Stars that will be available streaming. Look, I'm not saying Lisa Loeb is going to be there, but I am saying I'm going to email Lisa Loeb to ask if she'll be there. That's my promise to you. I will send an email to Lisa Loeb, my number one crush from middle school, an email to Lisa Loeb, my number one crush from middle school, and ask her if she will come. And she might because she comes to stuff. She's a fucking, she's a cool lady.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. And I'm also going to say it right now. We are so grateful to all of you members of Maximum Fun for your continued support over the years. I cannot overstate how much it means to me. So just please circle your calendar. March 18 starts two weeks of the MaxFunDrive. This is the time of year when we not only offer you

some of the wildest bonus episodes and special guests and have all kinds of fun crossovers and everything else, but it's also the time of year when we ask you to go ahead and become a member if you're not one or to upgrade your membership if you're able to. It all happens at MaximumFun.org slash join. But just circle that URL and circle March 18 and get ready to join in the MaxFunDrive. It's Max and fun and drive. Come be a part of it. Let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. Normally, I don't start a verdict with a question, but I received some information right before I went into my chambers. And then I

received some information through the paper-thin walls of my chambers while you were talking to Jesse Tyler. And so I just wanted to say, did you want to ask abby top five reasons she loves your brother why is that a complicated question for you they're both very they're the two people i consider the most intelligent people i've ever met um and i respect them both a lot but they butt heads like crazy sometimes oh okay and my brother lives out in california now are you anxious that uh that abby and your brother don't get along as well as you wish they would yes right and so you're asking the question top five things to maybe foster some reflection on her part about what a good duty is or something i would like to know that there's something there you know because he's kind of almost the only family uh

so i want to make sure that we can like maintain that relationship to keep going and visiting him throughout our lifetime okay that's something for you two to discuss between that's a heavy thing for you two to discuss between each other but i'm i'm grateful to you for being so open about it and i think that it helps me with regard to my verdict. And now it's verdict time. The thing that I heard through the paper thin walls of my non-existent chambers was that you were feeling anxious about this because you grew up and at the dinner table, your family would debate topics rather than simply talk about their day. That's exactly what you are doing now, right? You know, the top fives are an expression of enthusiasm on your part and also of curiosity, but they are framed

in a very arbitrary and remote, debatey way. Like, rather than simply say, what is your favorite kind of door? Have you ever thought about it? Instead, you might ask someone to name their top five doors. And I think what Abby is feeling is that there is an implicit challenge in there. That if you ask for the top five or you offer your top five, there is an invitation to debate. Or there is a worry that maybe I'll say something and you'll go wrong. There is in the top five an implicit challenge that my taste is perhaps more interesting than yours or you're not going to answer the right top five for me. And I think that it puts and keeps people at a distance. And your family, if I were to guess, and I probably am guessing correctly, like your family's willingness to debate topics at the dinner table rather than speak plainly about their lives and their feelings, that is keeping everybody at a safe distance from their own emotions as well to a certain degree.

maybe you've inherited that a little bit and you feel more comfortable talking with people about hypothetical situations or lists of cultural references or whatever it is than simply saying like, I don't know what an actuary does and I'm married to one. Can you explain it to me? Or whatever it might be, you know? And I think that that's something that you should think about. I think you are a genuinely curious person. And for someone who thinks in terms of lists like me, it is a delight to talk to you. This is a prompt that really, really works for me in terms of sparking conversation. But I think you've observed that this is a prompt that sort of chills conversation or makes Abby feel like she's being quizzed on something or her actuary friends feel confused. And for that reason, while I find you very, very charming and fun and my office, my offer of

marriage stands, which is really irresponsible. Uh, and I would love to hang out with you in Milwaukee and go to safe house and play Euchre and, and play euchre and whist or whatever else you get up to in Milwaukee. Eat cheese foods. Eat cheese foods and talk about the top five Milwaukeeans of all time or whatever. John Gerda. Okay. I would say that you should develop a way to express your curiosity in a less ranked way. And I think, I mean, you, you pointed it out. Like everyone's kind of got a favorite pizza. Like it's okay to simply say, instead of what are your top five pizzas? Like

what's the best time? What's the best pizza you ever had? Do you remember a time? Now, you can't just be out of the clear blue here. You know what I mean? It can't be like, oh, hi, we were all talking about what's happening at the state capitol today. What's your best pizza? You know, it best conversation starter that I've ever heard in my life is the one that was prompted to me by my wonderful and departed, unfortunately, writing teacher, Lee K. Abbott. What did you do today?

The truth is, everyone wants to talk about their work. Everyone wants to talk about what they did today. And you'll get a lot further by asking questions than demanding answers. Or trying to steer the conversation to 90s dinosaur video games when honestly you didn't even have a good five list there you were really struggling when i asked you like if you're gonna ask that question you better be you better be locked and loaded with an incredible list of video games featuring dinosaurs from the 90s so i am finding in favor of Abby in this case. I'm not banning. You can't ask her top fives anymore.

Sorry. She just doesn't like it. Just doesn't work. And, you know, when it's a topic as serious as, is there a way that you and my brother can find common ground? Because I hope you guys really can care about each other and get along. It's best to ask that that way rather than say what's your top five reasons you love my brother yeah yeah i mean i knew what you were going for you were put on the spot and you felt it right i put you on the spot and you don't

want to put people putting people on the spot is no fun for them that really revealed a lot for me great so i hope you won't take this too personally when I grab the big gavel over here. And I say, I find an Abby's favor. Take it easy on the top fives. Make it only a top one at best. This is the sound of a gavel. Ladies and gentlemen, here's tonight's top ten.

Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Tyler, you sound chastened. Yeah, it's going to be hard. It's something I think I wasn't prepared to do entirely cut it off like that. But I can live with making Abby's day a little more easy with less quizzing on lists for sure. What are your top five Chris Rock movies?

Oh, I don't know if I have any Chris Rock movies that are my top five. Top five, which is a Chris Rock movie. It's called Top Five. This case is about a guy who insists on making others give their top five list and he's not even familiar with the movie Top Five. I'm sorry.

Abby, how are you feeling? Good. Yeah. No, that's great. I'm very happy. I think this will help Tyler's real non-combative personality shine, and he'll make a lot more friends that way. Top five MCs dead or alive.

Man, how about this? Top five grocery stores in the Midwest. No, we're doing top five MCs dead or alive. The subject of the top five lists in the Chris Rock movie Top Five. Oh, you lost me. I don't have any. Wow. Abby Tyler, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you. Thanks, I'm great. And Tyler, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Thanks. Been great. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. In just a moment, we'll have swift justice. But first, our thanks to Redditor Bobopolis5000 for naming this week's episode Cease and Delist.

Join the conversation about... I would buy that robot companion, Bobopolis 5000. Bobopolis 5000, play Huey Lewis and the News Sports. Join the conversation, suggest names for episodes, check out other people's suggestions at maximumfun.reddit.com. Evidence and photos from our program are posted on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. We're also on TikTok and YouTube now at Judge John Hodgman Pod. And when we say we're on YouTube, full episodes of the program. If you want to watch the show, you can do it on YouTube at Judge John Hodgman Pod.

Come see my great big gavel. Yeah, go follow us. We wear our outfits. We do little dances for your entertainment. See, look, we're doing a little dance. If you're only listening and you didn't get to see it, go subscribe to the YouTube channel. Thank you to 627 on Apple Podcasts for the five-star rating. They say this about the show. While massively entertaining, they also have an insightful perspective on morality and conflict. They've helped me in approaching conflict in my own life, and I look forward to listening every week. Thank you, 627.

If you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts, do rate and review the program. It helps us climb up those charts and find new listeners. Judge Sean Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This episode engineered by Dusty Weiss at PodCamp Media in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Great studio. Great engineer. Thank you. Great city.

Indeed. The podcast is edited by A.J. McKeon. Our video editor is Daniel Spear. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Did you know this, John? At the ballpark in Milwaukee. Yeah. They have a mascot race.

Yeah. But the mascots are all different types of sausages. Yeah. That you can get at the ballpark in Milwaukee. Did you notice that none of those sausages were cited as top ballpark snacks? Whoa. Blew me away. How about that?

Blew me away. Not even one of the running mascot sausages was listed, huh? I didn't expect to hear chorizo, but I figured at the very least I would hear Polish or bratwurst. Yeah, yeah. Unbelievable. Really, really surprising to me. I look forward to going to, I'd love to go to a baseball game.

People say that's one of the best places to go to a baseball game in the country. Let's go do a show in Milwaukee and then we'll go to a baseball game too. Here's Swift Justice where we answer small disputes with quick judgment. Giles asks, are pandas actually just people wearing costumes? I say yes, based on the attached photo. My wife and most others disagree. You know, every now and then I'm like,

should I look at these Swift Justice questions before they come up so I can prepare something? And this is the time where I remember, no, it's better to be surprised by a picture of pandas. What are they playing? Dominoes or Mahjong or what? Yeah, it looks like, I mean, it's basically around the table. It's a photograph of dogs playing poker, only it's a real photograph and it's real pandas or possibly just people wearing costumes. I, I, I'm going to look, I'm going to go with Giles on this one. Just like all birds are robot surveillance cameras and are not real. All pandas are people and humans.

Uh, prove me wrong. Speaking of Bobopolis 5000, we need your robot cases. We need your droid cases. We need your science fiction cases actually take it back droids are a part of the star wars franchise which is a fantasy franchise speculative fiction i'm just trying to honor my own settled law in the new york times magazine okay they got me a lot of letters but okay any kind of science fiction speculative fiction indeed any kind of fantasy.

Did someone in your life want to watch the movie Serenity without having seen Firefly at all? Wow. Did the Jetsons stop being sci-fi when they crossed over with the Flintstones? Time travel. I think that has to be. Well, I don't know. Do you have a sneaking suspicion that your friend might be an android, but you don't have the right kind of test to prove it?

Submit your cases about sci-fi to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. And by sci-fi, I mean SF or science fiction. We don't say sci-fi. MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. And of course, we're eager to hear about all your disputes, not just ones about SF. I'm eager to hear your ones about SF in addition to your ones about SF, I'm eager to hear your ones about SF in addition to your ones about SF because I'll settle them. It doesn't matter the subject. No case too big, too small. Maximumfund.org slash JJHO. And we'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximum Fund, a worker owned network of artists owned shows supported directly by you.