Judge John Hodgman - Condiment Crimes

Episode Date: November 8, 2023

It's time to clear the docket and this week we are adjudicating CONDIMENT CRIMES! Is ketchup sweet? What foods are acceptable to eat with ketchup? Which condiment is the MAIN ONE? Condiment experts Nick Wiger and Amelia Marino from The Doughboys podcast join us to weigh in!The Van Freaks Roadshow has come to an end. But the fun's not over yet! We are excited to announce: THE VAN FREAKS ROADSHOW STREAMING EVENT: From the Opera House in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. Premiering November 18 at 8pm ET! Tickets are on sale NOW at stagepilot.com/jjh!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. We're in chambers this week clearing the docket. And today we're all dressed and ready to get into it with condiment crimes. That's right. People who like the wrong mayonnaise, eat salsa with a spoon and put grape jelly. And this is 100 percent real on pepperoni pizza. Here to help us dispense condiment justice are some very special guests. From the Doughboys, it's the burger boy himself, Nick Weiger, plus Doughboys associate producer, Amelia Marino. Hi, Amelia and Nick. Wow. Thanks for having us. Hi. Welcome to the podcast and and and uh for those who haven't heard of the uh the podcast

doughboys you really should go over and listen to it and then i guess cancel your subscription to us because it's pretty much the podcast in the world that one should listen to i'm glad finally the doughboys is getting a plug on judge finally thank you john finally but if you don't listen to the doughboys for those who maybe haven't heard it in our audience, and please don't unsubscribe to us, there's room for many podcasts. Good luck to all podcasts. Exactly. But Nick, how would you explain the Doughboys podcast? That's a great question. I'll answer it. And then also Amelia, who joined our team in the past couple of years, I want to hear her assessment. Yes, this would be good. She's a key part of the team, but she's not one

of the titular doughboys. Okay, so the podcast is me and Mike Mitchell, the very talented actor, comedian. So the podcast is the two of us, and we have known each other for a long time. We've been doing the podcast

for about eight years, and we review a different fast food or sit-down chain restaurant every week with an array of guests. And that's basically the format. The thing is that we go on a lot of tangents, fast food or sit down chain restaurant every week with an array of guests. And that's that's basically the format. The thing is that we go on a lot of tangents, as you might expect. It's a slow it's a slow experiment in two friends going every week to a fast food restaurant or a chain restaurant and documenting the destruction of their own bodies and minds.

That's absolutely true. And friendship. That's a key part. All right. Let's see if amelia's answer matches your own so how would you describe it amelia um it's it's it's a very it's a fun silly dumb podcast um that is supposed to be about food but ends up being about other things i would say very often the doughboys at its best is about our emotional relationships to food healthy and unhealthy yeah and nick and mitch's emotional relationship to each other healthy and unhealthy very true that's true yeah we do talk about that a lot we talk about about eating and as you both have said, and what that does to our brains and bodies. And yeah, it's it's look, it's it's trying. I'm I'm I'm you know, we don't need to get into the two of your professional relationship.

But I feel like any time you collaborate on something with someone for a while, there are going to be some fraught times. And we we tend to air that out in the open. So that that's part of what you get from the podcast. We keep it pressed way down. Only children here, baby. Never the conflict shall reveal itself. It's a mystery even to me because it doesn't feel like there's any. So let me explain what happened here. Some time ago, a loyal listener to our podcast and a loyal listener to your podcast, an overlap.

Wow. Person named David. Hi, David. Hi, David. Well, hang on. But I'm you know what? I hope you're David. I'm out of here.

Yeah. David, I hope you heard the tone in my voice when I said hello, David. David wrote to us from Warwick, Rhode Island. And Jesse, would you read David's letter, please? David in Warwick, Rhode Island says, is ketchup sweet? When I describe the taste of ketchup, the first word I use is sweet. My partner Chrissy says it's not sweet. I'm looking for a declarative judgment in my favor and damages in the amount of one, parentheses, numeral one, close parentheses, in the amount of one, parentheses, numeral one,

close parentheses, hot dog with all the fixins. I also will be sending this same question word for word to the Doughboys for their input. Wow. Wow. Did we get that email, Amelia? Yeah. Oh, we did get it. I see it.

Okay. Let me just say this. Wow. Wow, David. Wow, David. That's called podcast double dipping. It's not cool. Okay. Let me just say this. Wow. Wow, David. Wow, David. That's called podcast double dipping. It's not cool.

Not cool. So we decided rather than answer you right away and knowing that the dough boys probably would never find your letter, we decided to do an end run and bring the case to the dough boys ourselves. And while we have you, Nick and Amelia, here, we'll take the opportunity to discuss all kinds of condiment disputes, not just ketchup. But first, Nick and Amelia, your thoughts on Dave from Warwick and ketchup.

Is ketchup sweet? Amelia. I'm very glad this question came in because I do think ketchup is sweet. I don't meet many people who agree with that sentiment, but I tend to only use ketchup for one purpose only. Yes. Maybe we could get into that later. Oh, well, we're going to talk about a lot of uses of ketchup. Yes.

It's going to get gross. I do think it is sweet and doesn't belong on some of the things that maybe some other people like it on amelia when you say that you don't meet a lot of people who agree with you on this is this something you check in with people about when you meet them um you know every once in a while i'm amelia I think ketchup's sweet. Maybe, I mean, ketchup is at every event, every barbecue, you know. It's always showing up. It's always showing up at one point. Here comes ketchup again.

Omnipresent. Yeah, usually in a crusty squeeze bottle. These conversations do come up, and I usually opt for other condiments like mustard or. Because in your mind, ketchup is sweet. Yeah, it might as well be an ice cream flavor. Wow. Ketchup flavored ice cream is probably has to have been done, right, Nick? I'm sure that's like a gimmicky flavor some parlor has done at some point.

And I think it could work. Yeah, there's certainly ketchup flavored potato chips. I like those slaps. Which you get up in Canada. And they're also all dressed potato chips, which everyone's going bananas for right now. Oh, yeah. Which is all the different flavors. But Nick, ketchup, is it sweet or not sweet?

I mean, I'm not talking about the flavor profile. When you think about ketchup, what comes to your mind? Sweet? It's a great question. I think the issue is this is one of those yes or no questions where it's tough for me to give just like a clear like binary yes or no. But I will I will say if I had to, I would say yes, I would lean towards Amelia's answer. My my addendum to that would be that I think Heinz ketchup specifically, which is the most popular ketchup

is sweet. But a lot of other ketchup varietals that you'll encounter are not as sweet and are a little bit more tomatoey, a little bit more. I think if you made me ask me, is ketchup sweet? I'd probably have to say yes if I had to give an answer, but I don't think all ketchups are sweet. Jesse Thorne, do you got a feeling on this? Ketchup is all flavors. That's its appeal. It's its own all-dressed. I would say it is sweet. Although, you know, I think it's also fair to say that a very similar flavor profile is found in, like, grocery store or fast food barbecue sauce. And that is significantly more sweet. Great point in how you would describe it. That's exactly right, Jesse Thorne. Here's the answer and here's the truth.

David, technically you are absolutely right. Ketchup is sweet. It's super sweet. Gram for gram, ketchup is sweeter than Coca-Cola. I did a little research to find out. That's wild. Wow. And, you know, that's why you can use ketchup to make it into a sugary glaze for a meat

loaf, for example. But there's a reason why there's a question mark around this whole issue, because ketchup is not supposed to be sweet. Not entirely. It's supposed to be sweet and savory. Indeed, the original ketchup that was first produced under the name ketchup in England in the 18th century was made from mushrooms, mushroom ketchup. As well, there were also other savory ketchups, including ketchups made from grapes, mussels, walnuts, and oyster ketchup. And tomato ketchup didn't even get made until the early 19th century. When food was discovered in England. Yeah, exactly so.

And even then, the first recipes for ketchup had anchovies in them because it was supposed to be that balance between sweet and savory. And there are competing theories as to the origin of the term ketchup. It's either a loan word or take word from various dialects of Chinese, which would describe brined and pickled

fish or Malaysian, different Malaysian words for various sweetened styles of fish sauce and soy sauces. And how that all translated into the English word ketchup, we really don't know, but they do share a lineage, which is that umami, mushroom, tomato, oyster, mussels, and anchovy. So it should have a balance of sweet and savory. But because we live in the United States of America, they have leaned into sweet because people like to eat that right up. Here's a question. Do ketchups that are not made by Heinz exist? Really?

Heinz is a hegemonic ketchup. Yeah, it's, you know, you'll encounter them i feel like everyone is always upset by the house ketchup though right like no people always would prefer heinz so it's it's you know there's hunts hunts yeah i don't like hunts we were kind of we were oftentimes a hunts family because my dad was so cheap and it was like you know cost less money so and and it was like, you know, cost less money. So and it was that it just doesn't hit the same. I was once accused by the great David Cross of being the mascot on the front of a fancy ketchup bottle. You're called Sir Kensington. Yeah, I believe I believe his name. You kind of have that vibe. Speaking of ketchup, we went to the Internet to ask people for their condiment disputes. We got several responses involving husbands misusing ketchup.

I will just read a few of them just just for your reactions. Loriana writes, my husband puts ketchup on macaroni and cheese. That right or wrong? Wrong. Wrong. But I did see I did see this in a kids in the hall sketch. Oh. When I was younger,

and that was the first time, and honestly, the only time I'd ever encountered that. I wonder if it's a Canadian thing. What's the weirdest thing you've ever put ketchup on? Any of you. I'll give you some prompts. One of our listeners, Abigail,

points out that someone in her life puts ketchup on grilled corn. Thumbs up, thumbs down. That's a hard thumbs down. That's worse to me than the macaroni and cheese. Yeah, I agree. I concur. I think because I can kind of see, like I've done

dipped a grilled cheese and ketchup. That's the same principle. I've tried to use ketchup and mustard at various points as a salad. Yeah, like a salad dressing. It doesn't really work. Mustard actually is okay, but ketchup does not work. What inspired that bit of...

They called you mad at the university. Yeah, you know, sometimes you're in a pinch. You got the bag of leafy greens that you don't have a dressing in your fridge drawer, so you try to make do. Do you have a lot of packets? You get a lot of packets? Yeah, I've got a bunch of stray packets. So ketchup doesn't really work. Mustard. You can kind of, you know, juice into something approximating a Dijon dressing. I mean, Thousand Island dressing is ketchup based or it's mayonnaise based and it's ketchup being substantially. Yeah substantially yeah no that's that's a good point you know that nick weiger he's the one who invented uh stray packet dressing he invented it just whatever you got in the drawer i used to put ketchup on scrambled eggs

and i thought that was good for a while but i was i was a callow youth i would go to the diner after my clarinet lessons at the new england conservatory of and get some afternoon scrambled eggs with ketchup. And now I hate myself for it. See, scrambled eggs and ketchup is common. I see it a lot, but even I think that's too far. Too much. Too sweet. It's too much. I feel like ketchup is for one thing only, and it's for French fries. Yeah. And hamburgers or no? I wouldn't even say.

Maybe in a pinch. Maybe in a pinch. A pinch of ketchup on your hamburger. But yeah, ketchup and French fries is the best. What about this next one, Jesse? What does Anna Marguerite say? Okay. Anna Marguerite writes, my husband puts ketchup on French toast. Opinions?

Nasty. That's criminal. The Nana Marguerite, he nasty. Yeah. But just to deviate from ketchup for a moment, I was surprised when I heard from longtime listener from Nova Scotia, Emma, who wrote in to say, quote, my family does yellow mustard on French toast and I stand by it. That's wild.

Does mustard work better than ketchup on French toast? I mean, I'm an adult. So generally speaking, I will say that mustard works better than ketchup on something. Right. Whether it works overall is an open question, I would say. But I would lean towards ketchup just because i feel like you're more likely to see ketchup in a breakfast setting anyway because you know again some people put it on eggs i i agree with jesse i think overall

mustard as a substitute is is better than ketchup and yeah i feel like maybe the vinegaryness of mustard might work well to balance out the sweetness of a french toast yeah and the richness of a french toast and also french mustard france is famous for mustard that's so good i'm not necessarily talking about french's mustard which i like that's a real mustard yellow squeeze squeeze mustard, but some Dijon mustard? I would try it. Let me put it this way. Emma in Nova Scotia, I'll try it. Yeah, the French French connection is just so...

That's right. French toast with a little bit of Dijon mustard and some heroin? Is that what they're after in the French connection? Just a dusting of Gene Hackman. Just a dusting of Gene Hackman and Stan Griff, and you got it. The French connection, we'll call it. Popeye Doyle. Here is one that is blowing my mind. Jay Merr Giggles from Instagram writes,

My husband wants you to know, first of all, love the start of this. This husband can't even be bothered to type in this comment into Instagram. He's commanding his partner to type it in on his behalf. This is alarmingly common with people who submit questions to the Doughboys, by the way. It kind of became like a little bit of a podcast meme of people writing on behalf of their husband or partner. Dude's partners would be writing in on their behalf. Exactly. Yeah. My husband wants you to know, not only does he like A1 steak sauce on tortillas, he would also drink it straight. Wow. Oh, that's tough. I'm just first, I'm just picturing, is this a snack? Flour tortillas with A1 on them? Who says they're flour tortillas?

Could be corn tortillas. I wouldn't do that with a corn tortilla. Flour tortilla, I might. I think it's flour tortilla. Yeah. That's just all I can picture. I mean, A1 is definitely a heavy-duty umami bomb.

And I was surprised when I learned that it does not have anchovies in it. I always thought that it did. But that's Worcestershire sauce. Interesting. But A1 has a feces ton of raisins in it.

I have to say, when I listen to the Doughboys, I'm often surprised by the kind of depth of people's connections with chain food. Because I just, it's not something that I have. It wasn't a big part of my childhood to, you know, go with grandma to McDonald's or something like that. But I do have those associations with both A1 and Worcestershire sauce. Yeah. Because when I lived with my dad, half the time, my parents were divorced when I was very young. But before my dad married my stepmother, there were a few years when the two of us just, it was just the two of us in an apartment half the time. And in those days, my dad's passion for A1 and Worcestershire sauce were evidenced in

almost any element of our cuisine. And our cuisine was almost exclusively pasta, salad, and steak once a week. So he wasn't putting A1 on, he wasn't putting A1 on the salad or the pasta salad? No. All right. That would be amazing, though. I mean, it's worth a try. I'll tell you, my father-in-law used to feed my wife,

and my father-in-law, wonderful, wonderful man, when my mother-in-law was off at graduate school. And among other things, he told them that refried beans with sliced cucumber in a tortilla was a burrito. And my wife believed that to be a burrito until she was in high school. She learned that there were other types of burrito. And then also sometimes instead of serving the food onto plates, he would just put a bowl in the middle of the table and say that that was eating European style. Wow. My father-in-law said he's the best. I also, my dad served our steak with A1 steak sauce too. So I have a very deep nostalgic connection to it. Nick or Amelia, how do you feel about this condiment? We, wonder if it's a generational thing here,

but we also had both A1 steak sauce and Worcester in our little condiment cupboard. And yeah, those were always brought out with steak, which was always served well done. That was another thing of just like... And I think that was part of why we needed the sauce. And so it was not really super edible otherwise. People have a real connection to A1.

And we had a letter from someone and I made a note to mention it. And the note I made was nightstand letter. And now I can't find the letter. But my memory is that someone wrote in saying that his dad slept with a bottle of A1 on his nightstand. I don't know. Wow. I think that people really get into A1. But Amelia, A1 Worcestershire sauce?

I'm not too familiar with it. I've had it only a couple times, only because I had steak. I don't think people have it. Right. I only had steak for the first time about a year ago. Oh, wow. Wow. How did that happen? I just, I think I just time about a year ago. Oh, wow. Wow. How did that happen?

I think I just looked at it and I was like, I don't know if I... I've never felt drawn to steak. I've never felt compelled to eat it. Sure. But I think I was like, I think it's about time. You weren't vegetarian. You just had never gotten around to it? I was a vegetarian for about eight years from

ages 12 to 20 and then i was a big chunk of time back huh yeah but you know amelia a1 isn't just for steak it's also for tortillas but here's what i think I think if you love a condiment that much, I understand sleeping next to it every night. I love Tabasco. That's my relationship with Tabasco. Yeah, right. I don't sleep with it or sleep next to it, but I do carry it around with me. Yeah, that's fair.

Do you like just the straight up Tabasco? I did take a shot of it once just to see. Yeah. It doesn't sit well in the stomach. Let's just say that. No, it's just to see. Yeah. It doesn't sit well in the stomach. Let's just say that. No, it's super vinegary. Yeah. It is.

But do you like the straightforward plain Tabasco sauce? Or do you have one of the other varietals like the Chipotle or the jalapeno? I like the jalapeno one, but I got to go the classic. Got it. I'm a salty boy and I'm a savory boy and I like A1. I haven't had it for a while, so I'm going to get some and I'm going to put it on my nightstand with a tortilla. And I'm going to wake up at three o'clock in the morning,

as I always do. And instead of reading Reddit for five hours, I'm going to try out this guy's dad's snack and I'll get back to you. I'll report to the membership. Okay, one more ketchup dispute. LED Light from Instagram. We're at Judge John Hodgman on Instagram, by the way.

LED Light says, my mom never serves ketchup with hot dogs. Why not? It's the main one. Okay, I'm going to jump in first and just say ketchup absolutely belongs on hot dogs. There's no problem with ketchup on hot dogs. It's fine.

It's not a sin. You can prefer not to have ketchup on. This is immediately when the previous writer said the steaks were a hot dog with all the fixings. I immediately saw us wading into the what do you put on a hot dog debate. And the truth is, live your life. Enjoy those dogs. There's not a right and wrong way to eat a hot dog. Hot dogs are just a mix of all the things left over in the world. In tubular form. With salt added. It's a vehicle for whatever you please. We live in Los Angeles. Do I love to eat a bacon-wrapped hot dog with grilled onions on top?

Yeah, of course. If I'm at the ballgame, do I put some of each condiment on it? Yeah, sure. Why not? They're all there in that fun thing that you turn the crank and it dumps out. I love that. If you're in Chicago, do you eat it with your sport peppers and your neon green relish? Yeah, sure. Go to town.

That's great. I've had those. They're good. If you want to just put some mustard on it and eat it that way. Yeah, that's great. That's a classic pure experience. But Amelia, you say no. I wouldn't say that ketchup's the main one. Well, that's my question. That's my question. I don't think it's the main one. In fact, I just looked up the hot dog emoji and it looks like mustard is on it. So I think mustard's the main one. I agree with Jesse. I think, you know, live your life, put whatever you want, relish, mustard, whatever you want but in terms of the main one i think we might have a a debate here because i i think it might be mustard amelia you bring up a very important point because absolutely mustard is the main one for hot dogs but when it comes to all of condiments we're going to be talking about a lot of them and at the end end of this episode, I'm going to ask you to rule as to which is the main one

of all the ones. Wow. Which is the number one condiment? Not the number one. The main one. The primary. Okay. Got it. Got it. Yeah. I don't know why you keep trying to use different words. It's the main one. The main character of, got it, the protagonist of the main one.

Got it. The most common one? So kind of like at the top of the pyramid you have your a1 and then you have your main one got it in the spirit of this in the spirit of the phrase the main one you'll we'll interpret it later you go ahead though nick with your reaction is that what we're like like i may maybe misheard the question because is what we're litigating what what is the main hot dog condiment? No. Because we're just asking if ketchup on hot dogs is okay. So we're starting with the question, should ketchup be served with hot dogs? I think for most people, there are places where only mustard is acceptable and people for whom mustard is acceptable.

But I think it's reasonable to make ketchup available for hot dogs, which is the question here. I think absolutely. I think that's fair. And LED light is saying, why not put ketchup out with hot dogs? It's the main one. I think Amelia has, using emoji research, proven that ketchup is not the main one for hot dogs. No, that's absurd. What condiment is the main one in the universe? This is intense. Okay, we're going to take a quick break.

We'll be back in just a second, clearing more condiments from the docket with Nick Weiger and Amelia Marino from the Doughboys. We'll be back in just a second. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites.

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You know they say self-proclaimed expert. This is an us-proclaimed expert. Nick and Amelia have claimed no expertise. And they have no qualifications. None whatsoever. Well, well, well, well. Nick invented

the stray packet salad dressing. Come on. That's true. Yeah. Okay, well, let's get back to these condiments that we're clearing. We're going to flip the script with Dan, who has a condiment complaint regarding his wife.

This is what he says. My wife dips raw vegetables in yellow mustard as a snack. What are your opinions? That's fine. I like it. I kind of like it. Yeah. It sounds bad to me, but a nice thing about yellow mustard relative to a lot of the other staple condiments in your refrigerator is that its flavor does not come from sugar or fat.

Great point. And so it is something that adds a lot of pop to your food without, you know, without bringing it towards a more unhealthy profile. Did you ever eat just a spoonful of mustard in your life, anybody? I've done that. I've done it too. And what was going on in our lives when that happened? I've done it too. And I'm trying to think what was going on.

Growing up, I had one of those really sad fridges where my mom would be like, oh, there's food at home. And I'd go home, I'd open the fridge, and it's just like a random assortment of condiments, mustard, a couple slices of bread, some cold cuts. Right. So sometimes if there were no cold cuts, I would just eat like a spoonful of mustard. I'd just like try to find whatever I could. And, you know, sometimes it was just cheese.

So I just dip some cheese and mustard. Yeah. I don't think the vegetable mustard thing is weird because those are all parts of a whole anyway. Like if you're eating a burger or a sandwich. So I think it's fine. I think I've told the story on the Doughboys before that when I was maybe 11 or 12 or 13. And one time I said to my mom, hey, is it okay if I just eat a bowl of mayonnaise? And she said, no, it's not okay.

You'll feel sick. And I was like, oh. But then I grew up, and so I did it. Did you have a full bowl? No. I would do a spoonful of mayo. Did you get sick? No, I didn't eat a whole bowl of mayonnaise. I still kind of think I should do it at some point. But yes, I've definitely gone into the refrigerator at 3 a.m. when I couldn't find my A1 bottle on my nightstand and I would get just a spoonful of mayonnaise just as a little treat.

Jesse, I have a feeling this next letter will be somewhat difficult for you to read. Okay, well, we'll find out. Waldo After Dark writes, I'm not mad, but I don't get it. My co-worker... Holy crap! I had not read this in advance. Holy moly. Yeah.

This is what we call dropping an umami bomb on your co-host. Wow. This is my, what we're about to hear about, Nick, Amelia. You know, every time somebody comes on and they say like, you know, when I think of my grandfather's love, I think of church's chicken. Or when I think of home, I think about Philly cheesesteaks. Right. This food is mine. I'm a native of San Francisco's Mission District.

This is the home food for me. The burrito. Yeah. I'm not mad, but I don't get it. My coworker eats burritos with honey mustard. Wow. Wow. Thoughts. Do you think that they replace something else with honey mustard? Or do you think they take a burrito and then add honey mustard to it straight ahead? I'm envisioning the latter. Do you think they're bringing it with or getting it at home? Nick, do you think they're straight packet cowboys?

They could be. This strikes me as a honey mustard in the work fridge, and they're getting a burrito for lunch and putting some honey mustard on it. Do you think they're eating it like a wet burrito? They're putting it on its side on a plate and then pouring honey mustard on top? If they are doing that then that's repulsive they should not do that but if they're having it for little bites and especially if you're talking about like a fast food caliber burrito i think that's okay now if you're going

to like a nice you know like a hey like a mission style burrito shop like a like a nice taqueria that has some you know like a really, really high quality burrito. I think that's kind of not doing the food justice. But I guess my answer is contingent on the quality of the burrito. I'm envisioning a lower tier burrito. What if it's one of those freezer burritos that you buy at a, you know, a membership discount store? Right.

Yeah, that's that to me is like because that's that's basically, you know, dystopian cyberpunk food anyway. Like it's already not really food. So I think that's I think if you're if you're eating the, you know, the RoboCop meal, then I think you can put whatever you want on it. You know, I do a column based on this podcast for The New York Times magazine. And we had someone write in saying that her mom invited her to a barbecue at their house and then said the four letters in the text invitation, the four letters, B-Y-O-M, and then an emoji of a burger.

What would you interpret that to mean? Mustard? Bring your own meal? Meat? Meat. Meat. But I thought it was mustard at first and I was like, it can't be mustard. I think it's B-Y-O-M-E-A-T. It was mustard. It was mustard! What? Yes.

Wow. Wild! The daughter brought her own meat because what else would you imagine that could mean? Because B-Y mean because byom is not a thing if you're going to bring your own mustard what are you going to bring amelia i do like that that yellow mustard yeah it reminds you of digging around in your refrigerator exactly exactly weiger uh this is an easy answer for me a beaver brand sweet hot mustard

because it's a great mustard it's unique and i'm envisioning the scenario where a bunch of different mustards are being brought by a bunch of different guests and so i feel like you're you know your yellow mustard is gonna be covered by somebody else yeah this is easy for me too i have the same perspective on this as Nick. All the regular mustard bases are going to be covered. 100%. I'm bringing German mustard and it's the kind that comes in a glass barrel with a handle on it. Oh yeah. That's adorable. I love that. My answer is Coleman's English mustard because I loathe my sinuses and I just want to hurt them so bad every time I eat. That is some strong mustard.

Okay, here's something from Abigail. This one existential. What is Durkee's famous sauce other than delicious? Mustard? Some kind of mustard aioli? Durkee's famous sauce. Is anyone familiar with this? Never heard of this in my life.

Not famous to me. I have seen it at Court Street Grocers, which is a sandwich shop on Court Street here in Brooklyn and other places. And they kind of specialize in keeping a stock of unusual regional condiments or old-timey condiments. But they have durkeys there, and I went down and tasted some. It is a kind of, it's a mix. It's a tangy mustard mayonnaise. And by some accounts, Durkies is the first packaged condiment in the United States, developed in 1857 by the Durkies Spice Company in Elmhurst, Queens.

But what are your favorite combo condiments? Like your sriracha mayos, or your McDonald's Big Mac sauces, or your Thousand Island dressings. Those condiments, those Twilight condiments that exist between worlds. To me, the clear answer is a burger sauce, worlds? To me, the clear answer is a burger sauce, a mayo base, mustard, ketchup and and sweet pickle relish, sometimes with a dash of heat as well. But that's my classic burger sauce to to glop on top of a of a burger, mixing those things all together. Jesse, you ever have a fry sauce, one of the Utah style fry sauce?

No, what's in that? I think you'd like that because it basically is just like a, you know, it is kind of a tangier Thousand Island minus the relish. So it really is just, I think you can make it with pretty much ketchup, mayo,

and then like some cayenne pepper. That sounds great to me. And I would 100% with all due respect to Amelia strongly prefer that to straight ketchup for my french fries. It is good on fries. Let's see. You know, boy, does tartar

sauce qualify as kind of a compound sauce? Tartar sauce. That might be my answer. We also, we had crunch, the ketchup ranch portmanteau that I think is from Kraft we had that on the podcast and it was shockingly

good really is Griffin Newman the king of Cranch he's the king of Cranch now self-proclaimed king of Cranch after tasting it on our pod and so it's quite a power grab you just tasted it and all of a sudden he's the king. That's how it works.

I'm glad Griffin Newman is getting some air on this show. Finally, finally, we get to mention the dough boys and Griffin Newman.

They need the help. Was there a coronation for the king of crunch where he was anointed with crunch dressing and so forth? It's kind of a palace coup. Yeah,

he just sort of seized power. I think that was a surprisingly good condiment. My wife, who is a whole human being in her own right, has a dream, which is that when she decides to retire from teaching high school in New York City, she is going to move full time to Maine and become not the king of crunch, the Empress of tartar sauce. Wow.

So someday, someday I may be the, the, the Prince consort to the Empress of tartar sauce in Maine. Fingers crossed. But I like that answer. That's a good one. That's a good combo okay okay okay it's time to stop appreciating condiments time to get back into condiment crimes

here's something from instagram user peas with ann my buddy eats bananas with mayonnaise your opinions bananas oh with mayonnaise that's gonna be a no for me huge fan of both of those things i do not think they belong together that sounds disgusting that's a nanner no no bananas as a flavor are very divisive and there are some people who just cannot hack a nana i don't eat a lot of fruits i don't like fruit particularly i like banana fine i love mayonnaise this doesn't feel good to me though this feels like some textural crime it sends shivers down my spine personally if i'm if i'm gonna give this idea any credit the only thing i can think of that's that's close it's not same, but it but is like if you go to like a pupus area, they'll sometimes have like plantains

and like a crema. And it's it's kind of similar textures and flavor profiles, but and mixing fruit and dairy, although I guess mayonnaise isn't technically dairy, but with a white sauce. But banana plus mayo

is is too many steps. I think, you know, a lot of people have issue with mayonnaise and I understand why. Look what it looks like. But also it's a textural issue. It's too gloppy. Yeah. And bananas themselves, they're already a textural challenge.

Do you know what I mean? So I think you're adding two wrongs make a vomit, I think, in that one. If it was a banana chip or a plantain chip, that I could see. Like a dried banana chip? In dry form. Interesting. Sure, yeah.

Interesting. Huh. Oh, yeah. Well, maybe then I might give it a try. I'll pretty much dip anything in mayonnaise that's crunchy. If you had to give up mayonnaise or mustard in your life forever, which would you give up? yeah it's not for you is it amelia yeah don't care for it i know that you love mustard you eat it in the middle of the night

out of the fridge yes i do sleep next to it on my bedside is there any condiment you like better than mustard um el yucateco habanero hot sauce there we go that was a fast answer all right hot sauce or mustard which would you ever give up if you had to mustard i guess i'm a hot sauce freak there we go also something of a heat seeker myself oh trademark trademark phrase. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, it gets weirder than bananas and mayonnaise.

Wow. We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie,

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Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We're talking condiments. Our guests are Nick Weiger and Amelia Marino from the Doughboys. Before we get back into it, I just want to say we've been talking a lot about mustard

and it's good, right? We all agree. We like it. Yeah, it's a great, great condiment. Yeah, I'm a savory boy. Now, the earliest printed recipe for modern tomato ketchup that Wikipedia turned up dated to 1817. Okay. It's pretty old.

Mustard, on the other hand, has been pumped out of Dijon, France since the 13th century. Wow. Yeah. They've been making that mustard since the 1200s. And they probably got it from the Romans who were experimenting with mustard condiments in the late 4th century. So mustard has it in terms of sheer history. So let's check in on this. I have to ask, is mustard the main one?

Is mustard condiment prime? No, I'll say it again is mustard the main one like is mustard supreme no okay i'll say it one more time is mustard the main one uh sort of the pope of condiments got it i i it's it's that's tough it's such an important condiment it's such a key condiment i guess it like if we're if we're talking about the western world then i think it has a pretty high you know it's an important it's an important one yeah because i think if you're expanding beyond the so-called western world you might get involved in for example fish sauce or soy sauce yeah yeah i mean

like yeah those those are those are huge i i boy i'm i'm not sure um but here in our westernized you know imperial colonist invader culture right when we think of the default condiment the main one it doesn't feel like mustard to me i gotta say i still think it might be mayo interesting i think mayo is just it's just more central to like you know just to so many things and i think mustard is probably easier to replace and has a little bit less utility. The absence of mustard on hot dogs is tough. I mean, I know there are lots of different approaches to hot dogs. I've had some great hot dogs that, you know, like a Seattle style dog or a Sonoran style dog that don't have mustard. have uh that don't have mustard but not eliminating mustard i'm not i'm not giving you the amelia paradox of would you ever eliminate mustard right i'm just saying i don't think it's the main one and we haven't really fully talked about mayonnaise and we haven't even mentioned ranch yet so maybe we should get into that and revisit this in a moment here's something from

steven in kansas city missouri by the way, to all you Missouri heads out there. Again, my dad's from Kansas City. He called it Missouri. I eat lunch with my work colleagues after we complete our single file one mile walk through our library's book stacks. What is this weird librarian ritual? Yeah, it sounds like there're wearing eyes wide shut masks. What's going on? I eat lunch with my work colleagues

after we complete our single file one mile walk through a library with book stacks. That's a normal premise to any question. After we remove our daily clothes and don our scratchy brown woodrobes. Hair shirts.

Right. No, it's just a normal way to start a question. ahead continue jesse please proceed senator my colleague melinda and i both like ranch but hate mayonnaise derrick thinks this is absurd because ranch is made from mayonnaise who's right all right now we were just starting to talk about ranch and mayonnaise but i I would like to backtrack, not an entire mile through the stacks. But I did have to ask Stephen what the hell he was talking about. And Stephen said,

The walking routine was started by one of our colleagues to encourage us all to be more active since we have desk jobs. This colleague convinced a few others to join, and they found that two laps around our campus equals one mile. But when the weather turned bad, they moved into the library, where they found that two laps around our campus equals one mile. But when the weather turned bad, they moved into the library where they found that four laps weaving in and out of the stacks equals one mile. It truly looks ridiculous as we snake in and out of the rows. I was reluctant to join originally, but eventually added myself to the line and the conversations.

We usually have eight to 10 people weaving in and out of the rows every day. I'm just imagining someone browsing for books, getting pushed over and trampled to death. You're trying to study and you look up eight people walking single file in front of you. Terrifying. But is ranch simply flavored mayonnaise? Thoughts i i think that's too reductionist i i don't i think it's i think it's far enough removed from mayonnaise uh that that's like saying mayonnaise is just fancy eggs you know it it's like it's like far enough removed from mayonnaise that it's been transmuted into something else um I think that it is. Did the person and I may have it flipped.

Did they do they hate ranch, but like mayonnaise or back back or vice versa? Stephen likes ranch, but hates mayonnaise. And so does Melinda. And for this reason, they have been relegated to the back of the line. And in their weird in their weird library society, they're asking for justice. I think that's I think that's fine.

I think that's valid. I think it's it's changed enough. And I think the there's enough different seasonings. And, you know, I've made ranch from scratch from scratch, you know, still still with store brand mayonnaise.

But when I've made ranch at home, I believe there's some sour cream involved or some other dairy product. So, you know, it's got enough going on where it's different from mayonnaise. There's one very important dairy product traditionally used in ranch dressing, which is buttermilk. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Right. Yes. Which gives it a certain tang. Oh, yes, yes, yes, right. Yes. Which gives it a certain tang. I think mayonnaise, while it does contain in its traditional homemade form enough lemon juice to give it a not insignificant tang, is nonetheless primarily a fat delivery vehicle. The role of mayonnaise is to lubricate that which it covers.

Some people find that disgusting. I can see Amelia checking out completely at this point, just staring in the middle distance, trying not to vomit what you're talking about right now. Some people think it's fantastic. I'm no John Hodgman, but I definitely eat and enjoy mayonnaise and in fact, sometimes make my own mayonnaise. However, ranch has a greatly expanded flavor profile. It is a very different food.

It not only has many herbaceous elements, it also has several sources of tang beyond that lemon juice and the mayonnaise, buttermilk centrally, but often vinegars as well. And I think for that reason, it is a very different food product. Nick, you know about the history of ranch dressing? You noted that it was a fairly recent invention. I it's fairly recent but i don't know the the exact genesis of it it was invented by a a guy named stephen henson in 1949 he was a plumbing contractor in alaska and he made so much money plumbing in alaska that he retired at the age of 35 and moved down to Santa Barbara County and bought a ranch called Sweetwater Ranch. And he renamed it Hidden Valley Ranch.

That's the Hidden Valley guy. That's the Hidden Valley Ranch. And he started mixing up this ranch dressing and jarring it up for people to take home because they just they liked it so much. But Amelia, you don't care for mayonnaise how do you feel about ranch i'm not the biggest ranch fan either in fact i didn't even know that ranch was comprised of mayo maybe i'm in the minority there but right um this was news to me going back to the question though i don't i think they're so different that it's OK to like one and not the other. Right.

Like, for instance, I would eat I would dip chicken wings into into ranch, but I wouldn't do that with mayo. Proving that they're so different. Yeah, absolutely. That's the perfect acid test right there. Yes. Even I would not dip a chicken wing into mayonnaise. Right. I'll say this. We recently visited the United Kingdom, the great city of London. Yeah. And I heard multiple Britons mocking ranch. Really? Which they don't really have in the UK. Yeah. And I'm going to say this.

They can go suck a lemon because ranch is fantastic. And you know what? I'm American. I ate brown sauce on my miscellaneous British food sandwich that we bought at a convenience store, and it was great. Wow. I have no problem with brown sauce. So they need to get used to the fact that ranch is a truly great condiment.

So, but Amelia, to your point, you believe that Melinda and Melinda's colleague, who like ranch but hate mayonnaise, are fine. And Derek, who thinks that ranch is just a form of mayonnaise, is wrong, correct? I think Derek is dead wrong in this situation. Melinda and Stephen, go to the front of the line, and Derek, you go to the back of the line, and you have to crawl for a year as punishment. Well, this is on the subject of ranch. Callenholder says their coworker has a ranch drawer. It is what it sounds like.

Dozens of packets is a ranch drawer. A crime. Those packets, I assume, are shelf stable. So I'm going to say not a crime. I think having any sort of as long as it's not something that's going to go bad. It would be amazing if the drawer was refrigerated. Yeah, that sounds fine to me. You can have a drawer the drawer was refrigerated. Yeah. That sounds fine to me. You can have a drawer of yeah, that sounds totally valid.

Stray Packet Johnny over here is going to love a ranch drawer of course. No, there's no crime there. Let's move along. Amelia, I'm sorry to hear that you dislike mayonnaise. I love mayonnaise. I love mayonnaise like Dorothy loves the scarecrow most of all, which is weird that she says at the end of that movie that she likes one of her friends the best.

Really weird. Yeah. In front of them. In front of the lion and the tin man. Yeah. So I'll miss you most of all. You've never done that before, John? No.

Nick, you're my favorite of everybody that's here. Wow. That's so nice. I mean, me to everyone else, but lovely to me. Big Burger Brigade guy right here. Wow. That's so nice. I mean, mean to everyone else, but lovely to me. Big Burger Brigade guy right here. Wow, I love that. But I do have a feeling,

and I think, Nick, you were starting to circle around this. I think for a lot of Americans these days, ranch is the main one. Yeah. So in the style of the Doughboys podcast, shall we all say what we think is the main one on the count of three okay yeah one got it two three ketchup wow ketchup sounds like ketchup

has it yeah jesse what did you say i said ketchup and also i'm'm switching to Amelia for a favorite. Wow. I understand. So rough. Well, I also said ketchup. Yeah. I feel like, Amelia, our relationship is pregnant with possibility, whereas I've already soured on John and Nick. At least in terms of America, I see ranch making inroads. I see ranch, I see ranch making inroads and perhaps like climate change very, very quickly, faster than we imagine.

The whole landscape of the main one will change and will soon be drowning in ranch. The cities will drown in ranch. The global ranch oceans will raise and ranch will be the main one. But in terms of American history, the age of ketchup, the ubiquity of ketchup, and its sweetness, I think it makes it the main one. I think it's the main one.

I will defer to the super majority. I'm not going to say we should change the answer. I'm just going to say my case for mayo is that for me, such a big part of confidence is... I'm sorry. A bunch of people with burger boy hats are now trying to storm my office

saying that the election was rigged. John, get your spoon ready. It's time to fight back. I don't know. This is very unnerving to me. They're chanting, hang John Hodgman. I don't like that.

They're all in single file weaving through. I don't like that. They're all in single file. Weaving through. For me, such a huge part of a condiment is, can you use it on a sandwich? And there's basically no ketchup-based sandwiches,

whereas mayonnaise is on a whole lot of sandwiches. That was part of my reasoning, but I'm fine with ketchup being the winner. Yeah, meatloaf sandwich. Meatloaf sandwich. Yeah, meatloaf sandwich. Meatloaf sandwich. Meatloaf sandwich. Yeah, meatloaf sandwich. Maybe that does enough. I feel like if we were playing Family Feud and they asked 100 people top answers on the board, name a condiment, the majority of people would say ketchup.

Yeah, I think that's a great case. Ketchup probably is the number one answer. It's not for much longer, I don't think. I really think ranch is on the rise. But Nick and Amelia, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. What a delight.

Thanks for having us. But before we let you go, I just have to make good on the promise, the implicit promise in the introduction of what Jesse said about this real thing that is true. Comes from a listener named Danielle.

My grandmother puts grape jelly on pepperoni pizza, period. And once I caught her dipping a candy cane flavored Christmas cookie into the onion dip, end quote. Reactions? I hate that. I'll tell you what, when it comes to Christmas traditions, people came to us with all kinds of weird snacks and appetizers and drink combos. And I turned my nose up at those people who told me to try eggnog with orange soda in it. And then I did. And it was delicious. I'm going to give grandma a chance. I'm going to have a candy cane flavored Christmas cookie.

I'm going to put it in the onion dip. This is like that scene in Mad Men where the grandpa puts a bunch of salt on his vanilla ice cream where you see it. You're like, wow, that's some old white people stuff. That's disgusting. That's like a, you know, jello salad. And then you think about it for a minute and you're like. Yeah, no, that sounds pretty good. Yeah. think about it for a minute and you're like yeah no that sounds pretty good yeah i i think there's

something about the the second one the the the grape jelly on pepperoni pizza to me is a lot less gross than the candy cane and the onion dip yeah agreed that sounds that sounds awful uh i boy i i do wonder yeah if it could be like like maybe it's has has the grandma always done this or is this like I know that that one of the many things that happens as you age is that your taste is less sensitive. And so maybe just having like a stronger flavor, push it harder and harder and harder, push it harder. Maybe that's how many Christmases she has left. She's like, yeah, I'm going to put this cookie in that onion. Let's see what happens. And on that note, that makes me almost just think like,

you know what? You just got to let things go with grandma. Like, let grandmas be grandmas. That's fine. If I were Santa, I'd give her a lump of coal.

Nick and Amelia, thank you so much for joining us to the Doughboys. It comes out, what, every week? Twice a week if you're a patron, right?

That's right. The main feed episodes are out every Thursday and, yeah, we review a different chain restaurant with a different guest each week. Both Jesse and John have been on the podcast and it's a, it's, hey, you know what? People like it, so check it out. You know, now your co-host, Mike Mitchell,

is a diamond medallion on Delta and I'm not anymore. I've heard this, yeah. Maybe you could get me into the Sky Club and we could do another episode from the Delta Sky Club. But he could make that happen. Amelia, was there anything you would like to plug? Did you have any side hustles, some projects or whatever? Not currently at the moment.

But if you want to follow me on Instagram, I'm skidmark4. If you want to follow me on Letterboxd, I'm skidmark. You're saying that there are three skidmarks already on Instagram? One, two, and three were taken. Yeah. So I went with four. Four's a hot number, honestly. Yeah.

Pretty good. Make sure you follow Amelia over on Instagram at skidmark4 and on Letterboxd at skidmark. Our docket is clear. That's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman. Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This episode edited by A.J. McKeon. Marie Bardi Salinas runs our social media. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

We're on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. Follow us there for evidence and other photos from the show. John, are you prepared on Instagram to try grape jelly on pizza? Yeah, I'll try it. And I hate jelly. Wow. At Judge John Hodgman on Instagram. Yeah. Grape jelly on pizza. Judge John Hodgman. We're going to make it happen. Follow us there for evidence and other photos from all of these cases. Check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to chat about the show. Maximumfun.reddit.com. And of course, we always need your cases. Hey, after all, the holidays are coming up and I still remember the day I first tasted eggnog with Fanta orange soda. It doesn't have to be Fanta. You could also be Orange Crush or Nehi.

Just make sure your eggnog is pretty good. It's really delicious. But if you're a grandma dipping a cookie into the onion dip and you've got some other interesting holiday combos you'd like to suggest for us to try, why don't you send them into MaximumFun.org slash JJHO along with your holiday disputes. I don't care what holiday it is. There are a lot of them. They're mostly terrible and they usually cause distress and fights. And we'd like to hear about them so we can solve them for you. Get your holiday disputes over to us at maximumfund.org slash JJHO. And also, by the way, we've really been enjoying in our members-only

bonus content feed. I do a little side hustle. I record a little weird dad podcast about weird dad blogs of the year. Uh, I, uh, people have been sending me in their dad's blogs and, and YouTube channels and their sub stacks and so forth. And it's not always their weird dad. Sometimes it's their moms or the step parents or their uncles, or just an esteemed mentor who's doing some eccentric little hobby streaming. And it's been a lot of fun. So if you want to hear those and nominate a weird dad blog of the year yourself, get the over to maximumfund.org slash dad blogs. And then of course, just your disputes, right, Jesse? Maximumfund.org slash JJHO. No dispute too big or too small.

In fact, I encourage you to sow the seeds of conflict right now with your friends and family. Then bring the fruit to maximumfund.org slash JJHO or twill be sweet for us and our podcast. Twill be sweet. Twill. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.