Judge John Hodgman - Court Martial, Martial, Martial!

Episode Date: April 10, 2024

Is THE BRADY BUNCH a classic sitcom? Robert says, yes of course it is! His friend, Karl says it's just not good enough to be considered classic! Neither of them will admit defeat. UNTIL TODAY. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? Who will have a sunshine day?We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman.Thanks to reddit user u/UsefulBiscotti9548 for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, court martial, martial, martial. Robert brings the case against his friend, Carl. They both belong to a text group with friends. Recently, Robert entered the chat and said that the Brady Bunch is a classic sitcom. Carl said, wrong. The Brady Bunch is not good enough

to be classic. The rest of the group is split and neither Carl nor Robert will admit defeat until today. Who's right?

Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

All right, you put a shiv in my partner. You know what that means? God or whatever, damn it. All winter long, I got to listen to him gripe about his bowling scores. Now, I'm going to bust you for those three bags, and I'm going to nail you for picking your feet in Poughkeepsie.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Robert and Carl, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God or whatever. I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's hogging the phone?

I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Robert and Carl, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment. In one of your favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom? Carl? Robert? Who wants to go first? I will, Your Honor.

All right, Carl. I will guess a Honeymooners reference, the bawling in Poughkeepsie. A Honeymooners reference. Okay, that guess is wrong, but I'm going to give you another shot because you both deserve a hint. This is an obscure cultural reference. I am quoting a film that is perfect for 11 year olds. Okay. So do you want to take another guess, Carl? I'll pass. No, you have to guess. The Honeymooners movie. I think there was one. I'll put it in the guest book. I'm even going to take this pen and pretend to write on this piece of paper to show you.

That's what it sounds like. Me writing. Also, you getting ASMR response. You're welcome, listeners. Robert, what's your guess? Well, it kills all my Brady Bunch guesses. Yeah, did you think I was going to come in here with a Brady Bunch quote, most quotable?

Mom always said, don't play ball in the house. Oh, my nose. Whatever. I was all prepared with a reference to Greg's book, Barry Williams' book. Barry Williams' book, which was what? A very Brady book or something? Growing Up Brady, I think.

Growing Up Brady. I read it while sleeping on an air mattress in Amy Radford's apartment in Seattle in the 1990s. I read it as well. Probably the same, not the air mattress. Yeah. You ever meet Barry Williams? I have not met Barry. You ever rent him a video in a video store in New Haven in 1992 or so? Nobody wish I had. Yeah, well, I don't wish I had because I did. And what was it? The Oxbow incident, but there's more to the story. I think you have to read about it in medallion status

because it's a little bit of a grown-up story for this podcast. Robert, let's stop playing. Come on. What's your guess? The Biggest Loser? The big... A film.

A film. Yeah, Giamatti's movie. A feature film. Yeah, maybe I got the title. The Biggest Liar. The Biggest Liar. Because The Biggest Loser is a reality show, I believe. The Biggest Liar.

Or Big Liar. Big Fat Liar. With Frankie Muniz I believe. Right. The biggest liar or big liar. Big fat liar. With Frankie Muniz. Yes. And Amanda Bynes. Yes. You both are attorneys, right? Yes.

Counselor, can you explain your line of thinking here? There isn't a line of thinking around. I was trying to think of a movie for an 11-year-old that would have the word shiv in it somewhere. I got you. The quote again is, all right, you put a shiv in it somewhere i got you the quote again the quote again is all right you put a shiv in my partner you know what that means god or whatever damn it all winter long i gotta listen to a gripe about his bowling scores now i'm gonna bust you for those three bags and i'm gonna nail you for picking your feet in poughkeepsie all guesses

are wrong of course this is the famous children's movie, The French Connection. Now, Jesse's laughing because what he knows, and Carl and Robert, you don't know, is that we recorded an episode with the wonderful Kurt Braunohler, a juvenile court episode, in which an 11-year-old was petitioning my court to be able to watch The French Connection, an R-rated film with a lot of inflammatory language in it and a gritty and realistic portrayal of New York in 1970, 1971.

But I said that they could watch it because, yeah, because it's a good movie. But why did I mention it in this case? Now, Robert, counselor, you seem to have an idea. Why? Why? Because Gene Hackman was originally thought of to play Michael Brady. Boom. Hang on.

That's the sound of a big gavel. Does it mean you won the case? No. That was a gavel of appreciation. You know that, Jesse Thorne? Sherwood Schwartz, who created the Brady Bunch, number one choice to play Mike Brady, Gene Hackman. Wow.

Would have been a different show. Very much so. Would have been a different world. Would have been a different show. He would have been a much beefier and football-y dad than Robert Reed, who, by the way, incredible actor and obviously iconic in the role. It worked out the way it was supposed to. We're here to talk about the Brady Bunch.

Before we get into it, Carl and Robert, you're old friends, right? Yes. You're both attorneys, right? Correct. You met each other as adversaries in court originally? Correct, Your Honor. And the dispute in that courtroom was, if a Reuben has mustard on it, is it a Reuben?

Correct? Exactly. Yes, Your Honor. Yes, it was. That's not what the dispute in your courtroom was, but that's a dispute you were having off mic with me before we started recording, right? It is.

All right. Can I just say for the record, I don't know who believes what side of this, but if you put a mustard on a Reuben, it's not a Reuben anymore. Certainly if you substitute mustard mustard on a Reuben, it's not a Reuben anymore. Certainly if you substitute mustard for Thousand Island. Carl, you

were on the anti-Reuben side of that argument? Yes, that's correct, Your Honor. Alright. Thousand Island or Russian is a main ingredient. Without it, it's not a Reuben. Russian dressing is the correct one. I'll allow Thousand Island, Counselor. Same here, Your Honor. I will not allow mustard. It's a different sandwich. What would

it be called? The Robert? I like that. The Bob. The Bob? The wrong Bob? It'd be a Bobwich. It'll be a wrong Bob. That's what it's called from now on. Because you were wrong on that one, Bob. Robert, I mean. I look forward to seeing that on menus. All right. Who comes here? Robert,

is it you who comes seeking justice in my court? It is, Judge. All right. It says here that you? Is it you who comes seeking justice in my court? It is, Judge. All right. It says here that you believe The Brady Bunch is a classic sitcom. For our younger audience, who may be listening with their parents and may not know and didn't grow up with this show, what is The Brady Bunch? Go ahead, Robert. The Brady Bunch is a family sitcom with a, what is now called a blended family. The father with three sons marries the mother with three daughters. Each episode is about half an hour long.

Now we're getting into the weeds when we're talking about running time. Those are the weeds? Okay. Yeah, I mean, I don't think we need to know. Yeah, it's a sitcom, 30 minutes long. Right. Single-camera sitcom, very, very big cultural phenomenon. 1975 seasons, I believe. I could be wrong, but early 70s.

Very groovy outfits. These kids grew up in front of our eyes. Greg was a measly twerp, the eldest son, played by Barry Williams. Ended up maturing into a true Johnny Bravo, right? a measly twerp, the eldest son played by Barry Williams ended up mature, maturing into a true Johnny Bravo, right? Yes.

Very, very famous. Lots of catchphrases, lots of influence. Then there was a couple of reunion movies, a couple of parody movies, big, big, big cultural,

uh, touchstone for a lot of people my age and a little bit younger and a little bit older because I grew up with it watching it on channel 56 every afternoon when I got home from school Robert your your claim is that this is a classic television show yes and Carl you say no what's your problem with the Brady Bunch I don't have a problem the Brady Bunch and Bob is Robert is free to like what he likes. But to be classic, something has to be of high quality and have enduring excellence. And the Brady Bunch falls far short in that respect. And that's why it's merely iconic,

in my opinion, as opposed to classic. Merely iconic. Yes. Okay. And the points you made before about growing up watching the show, I noted you watched it in syndication. It only became iconic because of its popularity in syndication. It wasn't even that popular when first run. It was never highly rated, never a top 30 rated show, never received any Emmy nominations, much less awards. It was panned across the board by all the critics. And it just wasn't a high-quality show. Though, you know, perhaps you view it that way, or Robert views it that way, through the prism of his older Gen X nostalgia guy. But that doesn't make it a classic.

Let's read the roll call of honor. All the Bradys. Let's. Robert Reed as Mike Brady, rest in peace. Florence Henderson as Carol Brady, rest in peace. Anne B. Reed is Mike Brady. Rest in peace. Florence Henderson is Carol Brady. Rest in peace. And B Davis is Alice Nelson. Rest in peace.

Marine McCormick is Marsha. Eve Plum is Jan. Susan Olson is Cindy Barry Williams. My customer at, at a film fest video in new Haven on one notable afternoon, Greg Brady, Christopher Knight, Peter Brady, Mike looking land is Bobby Brady.

And let's not forget Robbie Rist as Cousin Oliver. These are all the people that you would like to erase from television history, Carl. All of the working actors that you say are pure garbage, correct, Carl? No, I think there was some fine acting in that show, particularly Mr. Brady and Mrs. Brady. According to you, the show wasn't good and therefore is not a classic, so therefore they're all bad actors, correct, Carl? That, the show wasn't good and therefore is not a classic. So therefore, they're all bad actors. Correct, Carl? That is not correct, Your Honor. That is not a fair characterization of my testimony, Your Honor.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, do I have permission to treat Carl even more hostily? Yeah, I mean, I'll give you permission, sure. Judge Hodgman, go to town. Thank you very much. Carl, is that the way it works in courtrooms? You're an actual attorney, right? Yes, I am, Your Honor. What kind of law do you two practice?

I practice general litigation. Real estate, most of the litigation. General lit and real estate. Okay. But you're saying that this, if I understand you, Carl, that this is not a classic because even though it became well-known, certainly, iconic, indisputably, arguably loved, but also made fun of by multiple generations after its original airing due to its popularity on syndication. It was not a classic because no one liked it when it was on TV. No, I'm saying it's not a classic because it didn't have the

quality and the storytelling and the depth of characters. I mean, look at the characters. You have Mike. Who's Mike? He's your stereotypical father. He's the good provider, goes to work, comes home, renters his sage paternal advice to the children that Carol couldn't give while she was home all day as the happy homemaker with a smile the whole time. With a full-time in-home helper, maid, and caretaker, by the way. Which I never understood. And they made the poor woman wear a uniform and they wouldn't let her eat at the table that they ate at for dinner that she made. No, no, no. She was pretty busy in her guest apartment

next to the washer-dryer hanging out with Sam the Butcher. I don't know. I think the show was more classist than classic in that respect. When you look at the role of Alice. Wow. You're one of these rhyming attorneys. My name is Carl and I'm here to say I'm in general litigation every day. Not today. You must've seen his ad. Wait, Carl, do you have a TV ad? No, I don't.

I don't think... We've rarely had real lawyers on this program, nevermind TV or radio lawyers. We need fake law books behind us and we all set. Yeah, that's right. Then you look at the older siblings. Again, stereotypical older siblings. You had Greg's, the cool, popular,

kind of jockey, Johnny Bravo, right? And then you have Marsha, super pretty and perfect and popular. Yeah. Then you have the middle siblings who are desperate for attention, overlooked, resentful of the older siblings. I mean, poor Jan has to

make up a boyfriend. You know, the famous line, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. Right. These are all stereotypes and tropes, these characters. And then you have the youngest siblings. Same thing. You have Cindy. She's just there to be cute with the pigtails, the dyed blonde hair. They dyed her hair so often it was falling out in season two.

Let me ask you a question. Sure. Is The Wizard of Oz a classic film? I would say yes. Even though Judy Garland was horribly abused on set and forced to, you know, take diet pills and stuff at the age of 14 or whatever? I mean... I'm not talking about set. I'm talking about the lack of development of these characters.

These characters were so poorly developed. What does the plight and exploitation of child actors have anything to do with making classic culture? Because her look and fit in this role was more important than the character itself. None of these characters were fully developed characters. None of them were worthy of any spinoffs, unlike true classic shows have spinoffs because they have well-developed

characters. Hang on. I'm actually writing this down. This is an interesting theory. I like this theory. True classic shows. I'm sure you'll be- Excuse me. I'm writing it down, Carl. I don't know why I'm so feisty today, Bailiff Jesse. Well, these guys are bringing the heat. They're bringing some heat, right? Maybe I'm intimidated because they're attorneys and I'm a fake judge. And they have incredible theories. I mean, like most snobs my age, my favorite television show is The Wire. But my second favorite television show is The Wire's spinoff show, Bunk! With an exclamation mark.

I would watch that. I would watch it too. So what's a classic show? Tell me your spinoff theory a little bit more there, Carl. A classic show from the same era, I would say All in the Family. Yes, you had Maud. You had the Jeffersons. Both high quality shows.

Good Times. Good Times. Good Times spun off from Mode. Mode. Mode. Yeah, that was a spinoff. That was a spinoff of a spinoff. Yes, because of Flow.

Rest in peace, John Amos. Rest in peace, Norman Le a spinoff. That was a spinoff of a spinoff. Yes, because of Flo. Rest in peace, John Amos. Rest in peace, Norman Lear, too. Okay. All in the Family is classic because I think it was probably classic for more reasons than just spinoffs. It was also incredibly trenchant and observant and groundbreaking and taboo breaking and everything else. Whereas the Brady Bunch was straight down the middle, pretty palatable entertainment suitable for adults and children. Never really broached major social commentary, despite the fact that it was in the early 70s. Although it was one of the first films to portray a blended family, which was a very big innovation at the time.

Oh, yet you would strip it of its classic status because it's just not good enough. Robert, how did this come up even? Okay, so this come up even? Okay, so this came up because I use an app called Strava. It's a fitness app. You track your runs. It keeps track of pace and distance and shows a little map of the area. What does this have to do with the Brady Bunch, Robert?

So after I finish running every morning, I try to find some pop culture reference to honor that day. And it's usually somebody's birthday. So you name the run. I named the run. And that morning was Mike Lickenland's birthday, who you already mentioned. Yeah. Mike Lickenland, who played Bobby Brady. Yeah. I, for the life of, I know I sent it in as evidence. Like when we started this case, actually Adam sent it in. But I named the run something like, mom always said, don't run in the house. Uh-huh, right.

Which is a spinoff of, or you know, a spinoff, if you will, of the classic line from the Brady Bunch. Mom always said, don't play ball in the house because they threw the ball, the football in the house and it hit the vase and it broke. Exactly. Mom's it broke. Exactly. Mom's favorite vase.

Right. So then I sent it to these guys. And every morning we have a little discussion about the person who I've honored and whether or not I've honored somebody appropriately. And Carl said, why are you doing this? And I said, it's a classic show. Of course I'm going to do this. And by the way, I've previously honored Barry Williams, Florence Henderson, when she passed away.

Like, this is not the first time I've honored anybody in the Brady Bunch. I'm so excited about the idea that this is the greatest show business honor anyone could earn, to have your passing marked by one of these runs being named after a reference to you.

I think it's right up there with the mention of the Oscars. It's just like the monuments at Yankee Stadium or the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Hey, Jesse, you haven't seen this evidence. And you can take a look at it at the Judge John Hodgman show page or her Instagram account at Judge John Hodgman. But we have a couple. Robert dedicated a couple of runs to our podcast, Jesse. So before you start turning your nose up, we got one here, a one mile run called Here Run the Judge.

And then a 3.61 mile run called Only Run Can Decide. Both of those are pretty solid. I mean, I think if we've learned anything from today's case and from Judge John Hodgman, it's that Jordan Jesse Goh is a classic podcast since this program is a spinoff of Jordan Jesse Goh. Good point. That's an excellent point. Really good point. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and

all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning,

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Let me ask you, Carl. Yes. Is this podcast a classic podcast? I don't have the expertise to opine, Your Honor. I apologize. Hmm. So you really don't know what makes anything a classic, and therefore I should

throw you out of the score. I've watched plenty of television, your honor. I have not listened to many podcasts. Yours in fact is the only podcast I've ever listened to your honor. All guesses are wrong. This is absolutely a classic podcast. Contemporary classic Webby award winner Webby award winning a Webby award. You think the Webby is handing out awards to non-classics best of iTunes, best of iTunes, Carl. I will have to defer, Your Honor. I've never listened to any other podcast. They're terrible.

I can't recommend them. Carl, how do Robert's runs end up becoming a conversation in your text group among your friends? It's a morning ritual. It's as important to my waking up as coffee. Rob runs the crack of dawn every day, seven days a week. Rain or shine thank you every every day six o'clock in the morning he's out there 20 degrees snow rain it doesn't matter and then he comes back and he posts it on strava uh which manually from his watch this all migrates over from his running watch um and then he looks at birthdays, famous people, and chooses a person to honor that day.

It's generally a musician. And our rule is we try to do musicians first. And so then Rob texts us his Strava link with his little pun in the picture with the expectation that the others in the group, mostly me, will chime in and come up with other puns, usually which mock Rob, as most of his puns mock him as well. And if Rob expects to be mocked, I will surely not disappoint him. So we end up sharing song lyrics and song titles for the honoree, just making fun of each other, but mostly Rob. So, Robert, what's your definition of a classic TV show?

Okay, so I don't know if by illustration. I'll tell you why I think the classic TV show is a show that stands the test of time. That people still watch decades later. That has resonance with people decades later, that has a second life. I'll say it again. Hmm. Let the record reflect that the judge says, hmm.

Hmm. That's one of those things that make me go, hmm. I'm trying to decide if that's good or bad. Well, it's a reference to Arsenio Hall. Okay. I think that's good. So good. Probably good. Yeah, good. Speaking of coming to America, also, yeah. I interviewed Arsenio Hall

one time, and the main thing I remember is how huge his hands are. Just, the guy has incredible hands. Hmm. You know, every, but generations watch. Like, I can mention it to a younger generation and i think they would know what i was talking about can you i think i can make references to things like marsha marsha marsha and on my nose and the brady bernstein and the theme song

and people would sing it okay here's the story of a man named brady yeah that's as far as i've gotten to they were four men living all together yet they were all alone and then one day when this fellow met this lady and they knew it was much more than a bunch you guys are litigators you know that we can't get in trouble with ASCAP BMI here. We haven't got that kind of budget. It's true. It's true. But I mean, I really love the idea of this going out. When we put this on the YouTube channel at Judge John Hodgman Pod, let's make sure that you catch us not just singing this, but also in this Zoom configuration where we're stacked up in boxes. Right right the way they are in the opening to

the brady bunch now i'm gonna i'm gonna venture to say this robert there is probably a tenant like this despite despite that all of the kids who listen to this program tend to be super smart intelligent old souls who deserve to watch the fringe connection i bet you a fair amount of them did not know what we were doing when we started dad-humming the Brady Bunch theme. That's just my impression. Jesse, what do you think? I mean, you're a full decade younger than me.

That's true. I'm an older millennial. Right. And to me, the Brady Bunch is two things. And to me, the Brady Bunch is two things. It ran far longer, I think, on Nick at Night than most of its contemporary shows. So it was still for sure on Nick at Night, which I would occasionally see when I went to my friend Jody's house because he had cable, well into my childhood. And I think that that theme song is absolutely iconic.

I don't think that the things like which of the Brady kids was like a hunk or a dreamboat or like which of the Brady kids was which, um, or, uh, what qualities the parents had of any kind other than being the parents.

Uh, I don't, I don't think those things have endured in the same way as that theme song. But I do think that the theme song and the aesthetics of the opening sequence are about as a fixation of Generation X, like as a subject of mockery and discussion and, you know, like far more than any of the Partridge family or or even all in the family or any of the great television shows of the 1970s. Like, The Brady Bunch is certainly the iconic television show for Generation X. I mean, definitely The Brady Bunch had an extended lifespan because it was being shoved down our throats in syndication and on Nick at night for a long time. I mean, it was just out there all the time. If I may, Bailiff Jesse, I'd submit that the Brady Bunches to Gen X as Saved by the Bell is to your generation.

And if that Rob were your age, he'd probably be honoring Screech on Strava someday and insisting that Saved by the Bell was a classic show. I think that is a canny move, Counselor, to compare those two shows because it would be difficult to find a show as iconic as Saved by the Bell that's worse than Saved by the Bell. The Brady Bunch is pretty corny, but it's definitely better than Saved by the Bell. Do I have to point out that Saved by the Bell

did have a spinoff? Which was it? Saved by the Bell. Do I have to point out that Saved by the Bell did have a spinoff? Which was it? Saved by the Bell, the new class, and then the college years. Well, are those spinoffs or reboots? Reboots. Well, one of them is about the same kids in college. Yeah, so that would be a reboot, I would say. Because there was, after all, the Brady Brides.

Right. And the Bradys, which was the adult contemporary version of the Brady Bunch that they tried to relaunch as a reunion show in the late 80s. True. But those aren't spinoffs. Those are reunions. But the new class had all new high school kids and Screech was working in the principal's office. If they had called it Screech, then yes. But because they called it Saved by the Bell, the new class, it was an extension.

It was not a spinoff. If it had been Screech, and Screech was now the hard-bitten editor of a newspaper in Chicago or something, and had completely changed tone like they did with Lou Grant and Mary Tyler Moore, then that would be a spinoff. I mean, the point that I was trying to make in terms of asking Jesse and so on is that I feel like, you know, I've always been astonished by how much culture Jesse and I have in common because we are, you know, not the same age. And yet Jesse is also an old soul, I think, and a, and a, not a consumer, but an observer of culture. But also I think generationally, probably Jesse and I have more in common with each other

than maybe Jesse has with someone who's 15 years younger than Jesse. Nick at Night and broadcast television were still very, very common well into the early 2000s. Although this is in some ways like a time of renaissance for Brady Bunch style television, right? That like there was a long period of time where streaming meant trying to produce the highest quality programming possible because all those streaming services were trying to become distinctive

by producing something that got critical acclaim or won awards. Yeah, they all wanted to be HBOs when HBO existed. And just in the last couple of years, the streaming services have almost all taken a hard turn towards things that are easy to watch in large amounts, which is probably the best quality of the Brady Bunch. It is entirely pleasant. And, you know, that's what, you know, they call it the suits-a-zonts or whatever it is, right? It's like television shows.

The television shows that are easy to watch have made a big comeback in the last couple of years. Scripted television shows, specifically, that are easy to watch. But that's very true. But, you know, people are watching Suits, not the Brady Bunch. The Brady Bunch is not back. I'm just making the argument and I don't know how to test it.

But it seems germane to this discussion with regard to how well it is endured. Do the kids know Brady Bunch now? I bet you fewer do than did 10 years ago, for sure. I don't believe the younger generation is streaming the Brady Bunch. So, Robert, let's get, let's, we, if you were to say what it is that makes the Brady Bunch classic,

is it its endurance? Or do you disagree with Carl about its quality? Both. But what, everything that Carl said about the Brady Bunch, setting up those tropes about the parents and the children and the middle children is what makes it a classic. It is the show, I think, the family sitcom, the model family sitcom. It is the family sitcom that I think

everybody hawkins back to when they talk about family sitcoms. Carl, Robert raises a point here. You say that like, you know, Cindy is a, Cindy is a trope, but didn't Cindy create the trope? I think, well,

I think Sherwood Schwartz created that trope. Way to erase Cindy and the actor. Again, you hate these actors so much. I don't think it's a classic example of the family sitcom. What is? My Three Sons? I never watched that either.

It's before my time, Your Honor. Name a more iconic octet than the Brady Bunch. I'll wait. That's not possible. What would be a more

classic family sitcom than the Brady Bunch? The Simpsons. Oh, the Simpsons is definitely a classic family sitcom. I think the Simpsons oh the simpsons definitely a classic family sitcom i think the simpsons only exists because of the brady bunch though i think it's fair to say that the simpsons only exists because of the honeymooners like as a definitional sitcom uh of which it is you, to which it is a sort of homage. But I don't think The Simpsons only even even with all those brilliant Gen X pop culture minors who created The Simpsons

and defined The Simpsons. I don't think you can trace its roots directly to the Brady Bunch. If you draw a through line through Dana Gould, famous comedian and Simpsons writer, you might even argue that Planet of the Apes has more influence upon The Simpsons than The Brady Bunch. There is, I guess, a somewhat reasonable argument to be made that The Simpsons is a sort of comedy riff on The Brady Bunch. Like, what if The Brady Bunch had jokes in it or was funny at all? I don't see any ever long lasting impression upon TV from The Brady Bunch had jokes in it or was funny at all? I don't see any ever long lasting impression upon TV from the Brady Bunch. I mean, what quality shows came out that mimicked that? I can't think of any.

Eight is enough. Family matters. Again, these are not classics. Yeah, Full House. How dare you? Full House. Full House. Yes.

That's a very comparable show. Yeah. But not a classic. Absolutely not. Because classic has to mean.... Yeah. But not a classic. Absolutely not. Because classic has to mean... High in quality, enduring quality. And all in the family would be the gold standard. For that era, I would say yes.

Maybe Mary Tyler Moore, maybe MASH. It has to have a seriousness, if not a certain self-seriousness to it. It can't just be a fun show that people like. No, it can be fun. It can't be a fun show that people like even sort of sarcastically as Generation X loved the Brady Bunch so much. If they're, I mean,

if you're enjoying it as a parody, that doesn't make it a classic. That kind of undermines the claim that it's a classic if people are enjoying it for, because it's such a parody. Hmm, interesting. Like the legendary classic film, Airport 72. Earl, I do feel like I haven't yet gotten from you

a comparable sitcom from that era, or just before or just after, that is classic by your own definition. Family sitcom. Family. Yeah. Well, I mean, all in the family. well i mean all in the family it's right there in the title i suppose yeah is that a maybe that's come yeah yeah maybe it is you had you had the beat head and the gloria living home that's a family sitcom that would qualify his nickname was meathead he was not called the meathead

the meathead is the monster meathead is the doctor but they're adult children what about a classic sitcom with children children and i'm talking about a comedy right i'm not necessarily talking about social commentary i'm just wondering if there's something that takes the place of brady bunch if we eliminate it from the pantheon You can think on it a little bit. Maybe family ties before it jumped the shark by adding the little brother. There's always a Cousin Oliver when they try to extend a show to beyond its natural life and they bring in a new little kid. That's Brady Bunch's contribution to the art. That's his only contribution to culture is that they introduced the term the Cousin Oliver curse.

It's his contribution to sitcoms. For those of you who don't know Cousin Oliver, you know, there were six Brady Bunch children until they started to age out and they all turned into teenagers. And they were, they were trying to figure out how to keep this, keep the show going. I guess because it was popular and successful, despite what Carl says. I guess they wanted to continue it. And they tried to inject some new life into it by bringing a new little kid. A little blonde, toe-headed kid with glasses. A little delightfully nerdy kid named Cousin Oliver, played by Robbie Rist. Cousin Oliver also played Dr. Z on Galactica 1980.

Robbie Rist now is a musician and occasionally an actor, best known for his role in helping to produce and write the music for an act in Sharknado, a classic, a classic film. It says here, Robert, that if I were to rule in your favor, you want Carl to quote Fonzie, unquote. What does it mean to Fonzie, quote, unquote? Okay, so basically when you have dug in and refused to admit you're wrong and later are forced to admit you're wrong, it's called a Fonzie because in the classic episode of Happy Days, Fonzie was unable to tell Richie he was wrong about something.

And when he had to do it, he went, I was, I was, I was. So when you reluctantly admit you're wrong about something after digging in for a while, let's say a few months, you have to Fonzie. So you want Carl to say I was wrong So you want Carl to say, I was wrong the way Henry Winkler did in that very famous episode of Happy Days, a show that I know and think of a lot, but maybe a younger generation doesn't anymore. Carl, is Happy Days a classic sitcom, yes or no? I believe it was for a short period of time before it jumped the shark, but it jumped the shark long before Fonzie jumped the shark. It jumped the shark long before it jumped long before fonzie jumped the shark it jumped the shark several years before that that's right because jumping the shark is a is a phrase is a trope that you see on the tv tropes i believe that's where it first started gaining currency on the internet but perhaps i'm wrong there but there is an episode in later days

of happy days when they were starting to replace the cast left and right as people were leaving and so forth but later on they tried to gin up some excitement by having Fonz, the Fonz water ski over a great white shark. It had to have been in the wake of the Jaws phenomenon, I suppose. And that was when people on the internet started saying that show got too silly at that point. It jumped the shark. You're saying it jumped the shark before Fonzie actually jumped the shark. Yes, Your Honor.

When did Happy Days turn sour for you, Carl? At the very latest when Richie left the show. And the kids were all at college. And they started focusing on Joanie and Chachi. And perhaps a little earlier when it became more of a total Fonzie-centric show. I thought Fonzie was much cooler when he was wearing his members-only jacket than when he was wearing his leather jacket. What a hipster you are. Only the most contemptible television snobs even know what you're talking about right now.

Oh, it says here that your ideal ruling is for Robert to Fonzie. You want him to admit he's wrong. What would you have him say? you want him to admit he's wrong what would you have him say i want him i want an on the air on the podcast full-throated arthur fonzarelli wrong that's what i want and and for him to buy me a beer the difference of course is that when richie got fonzi to say that he was wrong fonzi knew he was wrong and i don't know that I'm going to be able to order either of you to say you're wrong. I mean, the question I have is like, how can I convince one of you that you're wrong? You're never going to back down. You're attorneys. Now, we're both attorneys. We both

knew that we waived all rights to appeal by appearing before your fake honor. It's kind of like an arbitration proceeding. We have no recourse. So we're stuck and bound by your decision, your honor. Carl, you say that by definition, once you explain that words have meaning, by definition, Adam had to change his mind. Where do we find words? Where do we find the meanings for words typically? Dictionaries. Dictionaries. Dictionaries. Interesting.

I believe I submitted evidence of the definition of classic with my, well, I was marshalling, marshalling, marshalling my evidence last week. How dare you? Wow. Yeah. You sent me a link to merriam-webster.com dictionary classic. And this was your ninth grade personal writing essay opening the dictionary definition of class the dictionary defines classic as this was your big evidence that you were going to show to me right that was one piece then tell me

let's walk through the other pieces of homework you tried to give me. The other links that you sent me. Link number one, cute picture of Tiger. That was the dog on the first season who disappeared from the Brady Bunch. Mysteriously was never mentioned again. Tiger the dog. You sent me the obituary of Sherwood Schwartz, the creator of the show. And then you send me this link to the dictionary. Carl, have you ever in your career in general litigation stood up in a courtroom and said,

Your Honor, the dictionary definition of blank is blank. Is that ever something you've tried in court before? Dictionaries are often cited. Yes. Dictionaries are often cited. Sure. Why? Trying to break down a meaning of a statute you have to look at the construction of the statute the meaning of the words sometimes plain english

meaning sometimes black's law dictionary meaning then you get interpretations we love the marion webster dictionary even though they say a hot dog is a sandwich well they're clearly wrong your honor they're they're wrong But because you introduced it, I have to follow it, don't I? I have to at least give your evidence some weight.

Some weight. Right? Classic. Adjective. Definition one, A, serving as a standard of excellence,

of recognized value. What do you think about that, Robert? I think of recognized value as pretty much what the Brady Bunch is. Why? Because it made money for Sherwood Schwartz and his ungrateful nephew? No, because it entertained generations of people, and later, mostly children. Definition 1B, traditional, enduring.

I don't see anything enduring in this show at all i mean we already discussed this that no one known the younger generation is uh streaming this show definition 1c characterized by simple tailored lines and fashion year after year clearly the johnny bravo thing alone is clear lines of fashion this is my question carl to you and robert can i convince you robert that the brady bunch is not a classic show i think carl has made some some pretty strong arguments to be honest i've been i've been raking him over the coals i've been jumping him over the shark quite a bit for sure but uh but i mean you're not convinced, or are you just stubborn, Robert?

Well, I'm not convinced by Carl's argument. Whether or not your honor could do it, I wouldn't say you can't. You know, I'm not completely recalcitrant. But none of those arguments, I mean, you know, I think that we've established. I don't mean to make common cause with people who dislike the Brady Bunch necessarily, but I mean, I think Carl makes an argument that it is, that it's pretty pedestrian, right? Right. That is his argument. But my point is that beyond that, it's its influence. It's the way it's gone on through generations, the fact that it can be parodied so readily and everyone knows exactly what it is that's being parodied.

What we need to do is get SNL to do a parody of the Brady Bunch this Saturday. Then we'll know. Well, let's just wait. I'll call them and invite them to do that and they'll say yes. You folks, you guys just stay in the studio until Sunday, okay?

Then we'll know. All right. That's fine. Carl, is there any way that I could convince you that this is a classic? It'll be hard, Your Honor, but I will abide by Your Honor's decision. Robert, why is this important to you? Why is it important to you that Carl say he's wrong? Because of the, well, because of the way it arose, right? I sent this out there fully expecting everybody to say,

yeah, Brady Bunch was a classic. I didn't expect everyone to push back and go, how dare you honor Bobby Brady? Like he's unworthy. Is that what, is that what Carl said? How dare you honor Bobby Brady? Essentially. Yes.

Different words, but yes. Basically, he said, like, why is this guy worthy of my time leading your test? How dare he mock your third-of-a-mile jog? Yes, exactly. Thank you. Robert, is this something Carl does a lot? You come up with something and Carl shoots you down? Yes.

Yes. More often than you shoot Carl down? Probably. And what would be another example, if you have one, of Carl being contrary? Okay, so we were talking about this before. I'm a huge Beatles fan. And Ringo Starr's qualities as a drummer comes up all the time. And Carl will say how he thinks Ringo basically is a terrible drummer.

Wow. And only, you know, was lucky to play along with the Beatles. And then I'll point out to the number of drummers who over the years have said that Ringo is an excellent drummer and was integral to the sound of what I think is the most popular recording act in the history of recording acts. Big claim, the Beatles. Yes, it is right on a limb there. Robert's going out there. He's going to say say it beals popular judge hodgman uh an iconic argument but not a classic one i think i've heard everything i need to in order to make my decision

i'm going to go into my my sunken den with that really cool walled wall carpeting that mike brady designed for himself as an architect, I'll be backing him on with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Carl, how are you feeling about your chances? I think I'm feeling pretty good. Why is that? Feeling pretty good.

Because there's been a lot of, the judge has made a lot of references to iconic, the word iconic. And he has also talked about the show being rather pedestrian. And I suspect that he will respect English language and find that a pedestrian show is not a classic. I like the idea that you're using like a mind control technique on the judge, where if you figure, if you repeat the word iconic enough and then get him to say it, it's like when someone is trying to sell you a car and they keep nodding and it's supposed to make you nod and then you agree to buy the car. I don't think I have those powers of persuasion, unfortunately.

I think we need a prop. You need to bring in a too small glove or something. Robert, how are you feeling? Not as good as I felt coming into this, to be honest. You know, when I was talking about this with people at home and friends and family, they all pretty much convinced that I was right. And I think I might have to be ordered to Fonzie here, I'm starting to think. But I will accept the ruling. Well, we'll see what the judge has to say when he comes back in just a moment. is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie,

Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I.

Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try.

Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go,

try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. The MaxFunDrive now receding into the rearview mirror, but our gratitude is not. Our gratitude is everlasting. Thank you, MaxFun members, for making this show possible. You all absolutely rule.

The reason that we have food and modes of conveyance and we can support our children and so on and so forth. And we're ever grateful to you. It was max. It was fun. And it was even drive. Yeah. And it was all wonderful. And I'll just echo Jesse and my own self, as I've said over and over again,

I don't know what I would do without, without the show and without you all. And thank you for making it possible. John, you have solid sound coming up around the corner. Solid sound is happening. I mentioned it the other week and I'm going to say it to you again. Solid Sound is the biannual, that is every other year, Festival of Music and Culture and Arts and everything else, held at the beautiful former Electric Parts Factory that has been turned into one of the

most incredible large-scale installation art museums in the world. Mass MoCA, the Massachusetts Museum of Contemporary Art, out there in North Adams, Massachusetts, the pride of the Housatonic River. And who hosts Solid Sound? Well, the band Wilco. They play two big concerts and have all of their incredible guests come and play music and do other things. And then they even invite me to curate the comedy stage. And we've got quite a stage for you with Jean Grey, Dave Hill, Sydney, Washington, Brittany Carney, and more solid sound is a really, really special thing that I'm so grateful that I get to

do every other year. Um, and it's a lot of fun. And if you Google solid and sound, those are two different words. You will get there and you can get tickets and you can join us. I believe that there's single day tickets available now, if that's something that makes it easier for you to access. And our comedy stage runs all afternoon on Saturday and it is indoors, which is good for comedy. That is to say, people like to be on stage inside when they're doing comedy because laughter doesn't dissipate into the heavens. And it's good for you because you won't get rained on or too much sun. I mentioned also that friend of the show, Paul F. Tompkins, is going to Maine.

I don't know if that show is sold out yet. You can find out by going to paulftompkins.com slash live and seeing where else he's performing with his Varietopia variety show, which is a really good show. And I think you should go and maybe I'll see you there. And also, finally, speaking of Maine, I just want to give a shout out to the Colonial Theater of Belfast, Maine. It's a beautiful, old, historic movie theater in Belfast, Maine, of course, that was threatened with closure and disrepair and collapse. But it was saved by the town, and they're putting on some really great movies there. Belfast is a terrific town if you're able to get up there. Maybe after you're seeing Paul F. Tompkins, continue up the coast and go see a movie at the Colonial.

They've got a big old papier-mâché elephant on top that they stole from Perry's Nuthouse. It's a whole story. Check it out. The Colonial Theater in Belfast, Maine. Maybe we'll do a show there sometime. Jesse, what do you have going on? This week on Bullseye, my NPR and BaxFun pop culture interview Podcast. We have the great Alison Brie, a wonderful conversation with Alison Brie,

wherein we find out that her middle school locker is featured in the film Halloween. Really? Yeah, it's true. She's from South Pasadena. So South Pasadena is like a nice suburb USA in every film ever made, including Halloween. I was very lucky to appear in an episode of Community and met all the cast.

And Alison Brie is truly one of the most delightful of the delightfuls. Boy, and an incredible actor. Yeah. Let's get back to the courtroom and Judge John Hodgman. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents the verdict. So first of all, I've been given both of you the business, but I want you to know that I think you are both wonderful, even though I've been yelling at you a lot. Maybe I've been encouraged by the fact that you're both attorneys and it's my job to yell at you. As a judge, I never really had a chance to run a courtroom this way.

But on the other hand, I'm troubled a little bit by my saying, you know, I've been really giving you a hard time, but I like you because that's what bullies say. You know what? That's what bullies say. That's like that's like when when Jesse Thorne asked Carl, like, how does Robert feel about you stomping all over his opinions? He expects it. He loves it. It's fun. I don't know if it's fun.

Maybe think about that. Now, I've been thinking about this, because, Carl, you do make a pretty compelling argument. Can something be a classic if it is merely just sort of there and present in our lives for so long as brady bunch was i think that that's a reasonable question yeah you know because like we've heard a lot of elevator music in our time it's just there that doesn't mean that it's classic we've heard a lot of Coldplay songs. They're around for sure. And I don't even know why I'm making fun of Coldplay. I couldn't name a Coldplay song. I just know that it's a trope, a cliche, if you will, that Coldplay is pretty pedestrian. Maybe it's even a classic trope.

It has given me pause, but I keep coming back to influence. Brady Bunch had a profound influence on a couple of generations, despite its initial uncelebrated run. In syndication and in reruns, it left a real footprint on the brains of Gen X and to a lesser degree, some older millennials and to a maybe greater degree, a little bit younger boomers, whatever that one is. I don't know. Like everyone knew what the Brady Bunch was in the English speaking world in North America, for sure. The fact that it was so widely parodied, the fact that it was so widely quotable,

widely parodied. The fact that it was so widely quotable. The fact that, well, I mean, it gave birth to some pretty important careers. I mean, before there were the parody films in the 90s, there was the real live Brady Bunch, which was an off-Broadway show created by Joey and Jill Soloway with Becky Thayer and Andy Richter and Jane Lynch in it, among others, where all they did were essentially, you know, line-by-line recreations of episodes. Carl would deny us Andy Richter.

Carl would deny us Jane Lynch. Carl would believe that these careers should never have begun because they were imitating a bad show. If anything, I think that the Brady Bunch for good or ill, and there are

arguments both ways, right? Not merely left a cultural footprint on the brains of Gen X, but the hating on the Brady Bunch became the whole sort of part of the whole genesis of meta comedy of that 90s period of smarty pants, mostly white comedians who are obsessed with popular culture, remixing that into Mystery Science Theater 3000, for example.

You know, that kind of riffing, parodic homage, that kind of looking at pedestrian, you know, popular culture and appreciating it and making fun of it, but in a kind of loving and a subversive way. That's a whole style of comedy that I think went hand in hand with the sheer omnipresence of the Brady Bunch. Now, you make a good point in that

it does not have any spinoffs. I think that's true too. Like, it certainly did not move the cultural conversation in the way that All in the Family did or The Jeffersons or Maud or Good Times. That whole family of highly socially conscious Norman Lear shows. You're right. And if anything, like when we talk about the self-referential comedy of the 90s, which is when maybe the making fun of the Brady Bunch reached its apex, it's reflecting the fact that the did in the 70s, the cartoon show they did about the Bradys on the Saturday mornings, the two parody films, the multiple reunion attempts to

reboot and failed attempts, to your point, Carl, I suppose, the failed attempts to reunite the cast and do updated versions of the Brady Bunch. It was always only about itself, which you might think makes an argument that it is merely iconic and not classic. And I understand that. But for me, as I've thought about it over the course of this very lively conversation, the fact of the matter is it only sort of reemphasizes to me that it is, and I know this is a Latin term, but not a legal one, sui generis, in and of itself. For all, there were not many attempts to copy it.

One could argue that the Partridge family was something of an attempt. Certainly, eight is enough, but not taking away from the merits of those two shows, they just weren't the Brady Bunch. Not even Full House as kind of the best comp, I think, from the 80s and 90s to the Brady Bunch in terms of sort of like a generally not thought-provoking fun family sitcom. No show would attempt to imitate the Brady Bunch that way because they just knew the Brady Bunch was it.

It's its own thing. It's its own thing. And I think that I think that that speaks to the fact that the Brady Bunch, it's the the it's weird. Of its timeness and not of its timeness. It's a 1950s button-down family show in kind of groovy Johnny Bravo 70s drag. It is absolutely not socially alert at all. And the fashions and the style

are much more contemporary. But the attitudes, with the exception of it being a blended family. But even then it's like they were a blended family for one episode and then they might as well, they never addressed that issue again. It never became a dynamic at all. It was just a family with six kids and then a weird cousin.

Like all of that doesn't make it bad. All of that makes it interesting. And I think that there's a reason why people, it's not just that Nick and Knight and, and, and syndication were shoving it down the throat. It worked in syndication. It worked at Nick and Knight. It worked on people's imaginations in ways that say too close for comfort did not. No offense, Ted Knight. You know, it worked on people's imaginations in some way. And I think that it is the Brady Bunch is essentially undeniable.

So it makes sense that the Brady Bunch was on Nick at night, which described itself as the first classic television network. And it also makes sense that while it does not conform to the definition of classic in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary 1A, it may not meet your standard of excellence or recognized

value, Carl. It absolutely is traditional, and I believe enduring. Even if it is slipping to a certain degree from cultural currency. Now, I think, you know, if you had, if you had had this conversation 10 or 15 years ago, that wouldn't even be an issue. Of course, everyone knows what the Brady Bunch is and therefore it is enduring at that time.

And therefore, by definition of 1B, it is classic. At that time. And therefore, by definition of 1B, it is classic. Carl, you're wrong. And you're wrong to presume that Robert automatically expects and enjoys your abuse. So keep an eye out on that last thing. But for the meantime, I need you to Fonzie me right now on the Brady Bunch. I was...

Robert, do you accept that, Fonzie? I do, Your Honor. This is the sound of a gavel. Marsha, Marsha, Marsha! Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Robert, having received a Fonzie, how do you feel? I feel great. I mean, I feel like it's the biggest case of one

in whatever number of years I've been doing this. I may have to retire. Carl, how do you feel having Fonzied? I don't know. I just, I feel like I got in front of a judge who was a Brady Bunch fan, knew every episode, but I'll live with it. It's okay.

Rob's happy. And that does matter, of course. And we had fun. Well, thank you both for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We'll have swift justice in just a second. First, our thanks to Redditor UsefulBiscotti9548 for naming this week's episode Court Marshall Marshall Marshall. Join the conversation on the Maximum Fund subreddit at MaximumFund.Reddit.com. You can chat about this episode and submit your own ideas for names for future cases.

Evidence and photos from the show are on our Instagram. That is at Judge John Hodgman. We are also on TikTok and YouTube at Judge John Hodgman Pod. Yeah, there's video of Judge John Hodgman now. So make sure and go and watch it. It's really fun. It's a lot of fun. I agree with you.

What you said is correct. I'm sending a special message only to video viewers. You'll never know what it is unless you watch the video. And by the way, I want to say a special thank you to Andy underscore camp over there on Apple podcast for the five star rating. They say about the show, quote, I've been a listener and a Max fund member for a decade. Thank you very much. Andy underscore camp. There's not a bad show on the network, but this one is the best of shucks. Well, I mean, they're all terrific. Jesse and John are a great pair.

That I will agree with. Thank you, Andy underscore camp for listening. Thank you for being a member. And thank you for making this show possible with your membership. And if you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts and you like the show and you've got some time, why don't you go over there and give us a rating and a review? It really does help new listeners find the show or just tell your friends about it.

Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This episode engineered by Rich Maycar at Button Sound in New York City. Our social media manager is Natty Lopez. Our video editor is Daniel Speer. Our audio editor is A.J. McKeon. Our producer, the great Jennifer Marmer. Now,

Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment. This one's from Josh. My partner, Chuck, likes to use the term air budding to mean dog napping. I think it would be better understood to mean teaching a dog to play basketball. Boy, talk about cultural references. I have made that joke about there's nowhere in the rule book a dog can't play basketball too many times, even for someone my age. But I confess I have never seen that movie. Is the dog kidnapped in Air Bud? I believe the dog is kidnapped in Air Bud, but the real bad news kidnapping situation is in the movie Bingo, which is sort of a poor man's Air Bud

that features some dog peril that is truly alarming. I believe someone wants to make the dogs into hot dogs in Bingo. Oh, no. Yeah, it's bananas. Please don't bingo those dogs into non-sandwich hot dogs.

And by the way, Air Budding means teaching a dog to play basketball. That's the whole plot. That's the main part of the movie, right? He plays basketball. Air budding doesn't even mean teaching a dog to play basketball. Air budding is playing basketball when you're a dog. I, you know what? I defer to my bailiff, Jesse Thorne. That's right. Air budding is playing basketball when you're a dog. So take that, one of you. And by the way, speaking of animals, do you have a dispute involving animals?

Do you want your cat to carry items from room to room and they refuse? I'll find in your favor, of course. Or do you want to get into bird watching, but your hiking buddy doesn't want to hear about warblers or anything regarding animals and pets? We're long overdue for a big old pet docket. So submit your animal cases to this kangaroo court at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. In fact, submit any case at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. No case too big or small.

We judge them all. That's MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network. Of artist-owned shows. Supported. Directly.

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