Judge John Hodgman - Crime and Bunishment and Mailbags

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

It’s summertime, so we’re opening the member mailbag! We’ve pulled the greatest hits from our Members Only Mailbag, to give you a taste of the unfiltered JUSTICE that our members get every month. In this episode, we talk about: picking up critters in the wild, state birds, cutting a sandwich, and goth parts of Los Angeles. Plus, a classic dispute of night owl versus early bird... and hanging drywall? Judge John Hodgman, Bailiff Jesse Thorn, and Producer Jennifer Marmor (aka the J Squad) weigh in on all these issues and more! Love the mailbag, and want to weigh in each month? Become a member at just $5 a month for exclusive bonus content, or join us at $10 a month for access to an AD-FREE Feed! Thank you so much for continuing to make our show possible. Join us directly here: maximumfun.org/joinjjho Remember, we need YOUR disputes to make this show! So please send us your pettiest partner fights, your most unhinged sibling drama, and all the friendship mess that your fingers can type. Submit them at: https://maximumfun.org/jjho/ ---Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

It is the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bill of Jesse Thorne with me, Judge John Hodgman. Yes, here I am, Jesse Thorne, and it's summer. It's getting hot outside. I'm getting ready to go hide in the coastal woods of Maine. On our way, should we open the members-only mailbag and share some of our most rollicking of listener letters? I think we should, and if you're not a member, this is some of the stuff that you've been missing. You can join us any time for just $5 a month at maximum fund.org slash join JJHO. That's maximum fund.org slash join JJHO. You will pay for the production of this program, and you will get access to our entire huge monumental library of members-only bonus content. That includes our monthly members-only mailbag where we answer any question,

thought, concern, or observation that you might have and endure any complaint you might wish to provide us. So here's a little taste. Here's something from Emily in Hull, Massachusetts. Oh, Hull. I am almost 60 and I still love trying to catch little nature guys. You know, lizards, snakes, beetles, frogs, toads, crawfish, especially cute soft baby bunnies. I will usually pat a bunny with my finger, tell it not to worry, take a couple pictures, then put it back where I'm found it. I am gentle and kind.

The whole thing is over in under a minute. They don't seem scared at all. Hmm. Hmm. My family thinks I should see. cease and desist. My kids call me snake crampus, a cautionary tale snake parents tell their babies to keep them baby snakes in line. My ex-husband says I'm traumatizing the animals when I nab them. At least that was in the divorce complaint. Yeah. Is this harmless rabbit appreciation or cruel

and unusual punishment? Pretty good. Pretty good, Emily and Hull. Pretty good. The little bunnies never seem scared, says Emily. I would say rabbits always seem scared. I had two pet rabbits that I loved and loved me very much. And they were scared every time I was holding them. Yeah, they were scared. They're prey animals. Yeah, they're

scared. They're naturally scared. Now, if you were to get Amis Sedaris in here, yeah, who has kept many a bunny as a domestic companion. The legendary house rabbit society Doyen. She will tell you that in time not only do they become housebroken,

they'll use a litter box, but they calm down. Once you realize that Amy Sedaris is not going to hunt and kill you, which I'm still not convinced of myself. But once you realize it, you can really relax

in Amy Sedaris's apartment. She's got that look in her eye. She's got that look in her eye. It's the greatest. Either she's going to say the funniest thing of all time or hunt and kill you. Yeah.

It's been a while since I've seen Amy Sadaris. What a legend. Amy Shadaris, the greatest of all time. The greatest of season two of Dicktown, still on Hulu. They haven't erased it yet. You know what I like to do? No. I like to go on YouTube and watch that one scene from Kimmy Schmidt.

I knew you were going to say that. Where Amy Sedaris is running into what's her face is his living room. What's my girl called from 30 Rock? Jane Krakowski. She's running into Jane Krakowski's living room. Jane Kerkowski has a white carpet. Yeah. And Jane Krakowski says, no shoes on the carcats.

I think she's like, she has to sell the carpet for money or something. There was a whole, it's a storyline. Anyway, Amy Sedaris is running onto the carpet and Jane Krakowski says, no, she's on the carpet when she's like 10 inches from the carpet while running. And she just kicks her shoes off sideways while running onto the carpet. It's the greatest thing anyone's ever done on television. Literally the number one thing anyone's ever done on a screen of any kind. What a talent.

We got to get Amy Sedaris on a, on a, and a, on a, Membo mailbag one of these days. Maybe even a real-life case. What about these bunny rabbits? So, you know, I know that we're going to get letters, no matter how, I mean, unless I rule it in a particular way. Yeah. We're going to get letters from wildlife professionals and hobbyists.

Yeah. I suspect we're going to say, just don't do this. We're going to get letters from Pokemon's. We're going to get letters from Pokemon's. Yeah. Yeah, the Pokemon's out there. People are trying to catch them. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah, because they have to catch them all. Yeah, the Pokemon's are going to be like, Don't go. Don't Pokemon go. Pokemon stop picking me up. That's what the Pokemon's would say. Yep. I thought they just went Pikachu. Well, only the Pikachus do that. Oh. Yeah, what about snorlaxes? They go snorlax. And the Sydux go, oh, sidug. Those are the only ones I remember. Side duck is the is the duck-shaped Pokemon who always has a headache. Yeah. Yeah. I feel for Syduck a lot. I kind of relate to that.

Yeah. No comment. Anyway, I mean, I'm not going to get in the way of your fun, Emily, but I am. I mean, don't pick up the little bunnies. I think there are some unintended consequences that you might not be appreciating about picking up little bunnies. Can I tell you what my perspective on this is that is certain to generate letters? Please. And if you're thinking about writing me a letter,

just send it to Hodgman at maximum fun.org That's right. That's right. It's a real email. I get it. I'll definitely pass it along to Jesse. Here is my perspective on this. Frogs, snakes, lizards, and crawfish.

You should try to catch. Those are all pick-em-ups. Because they don't have real brains. They're just a little monster. They react to stimuli. You get you get into some trouble on the main lobster subreddit. You're not going to scare any of these little monsters. They're only reacting to the presence or absence of light.

Yeah. And they're amazing. And I want, and of course, it is a human's right and responsibility to try and catch a crawfish. If you're, if there's a crick and there's crawdads, there and you're not trying to catch him. What are you even doing? But a baby bunny. Yeah.

First of all, how are you even catching a baby bunny? Well, that's the thing. I don't understand how she's doing this. The problem is, like, Emily clearly has a superpower. And I'm astonished that this is possible. She's bun mesmeric. But she spent so much time thinking if she could do it, to quote Jeff Goldblum and Jurassic Park.

She can stop to think whether she should. Yeah. She might be turning these. bunnies into monsters. I want to say there's no human feeling to which I relate more deeply than wanting to hold and pet a bunny rabbit. Sure. This is the thing that animates my, the way that other people love their children, I love holding and petting a bunny rabbit. It's what gets me up in the morning, the idea that maybe today is a day when I will get to hold and pat a bunny rabbit. However, a wild bunny rabbit, especially a little baby, does not want to be caught and held.

It is, its legs could break. It could break its own back if you don't, if you don't successfully support its legs because they will kick when you pick them up. Right. Good point. And it will be traumatized because it has a real mammalian brain inside of its little head. Yeah. And, you know, I'm not saying that you're a monster for doing it. No. I understand everything about it. And I think it's a matter on which reasonable people can disagree. And if you do disagree, again, that email address is Hodgman at maximum fund.org.

But I'm not going to write a letter to my own email address because I agree with you. I think it's probably better to leave those whole bunnies alone. All the bunnies of Massachusetts. But if you can catch a snick, go ahead. Catch a snick, go for it. Absolutely. I've caught craw dads in Massachusetts. Can you believe it?

What's more fun than catching a crawdead? The creek in Lars Anderson Park. We would go down there and catch a crawdad. Of course, and I was barefoot and I had a long piece of straw in my teeth. Classic. Sorry about that, Emily. But I also, like, I'm also worried that the mama rabbit will smell your Emily smell on and reject the bunny. Is that a thing?

I don't know. I feel like that happens. Point is, I think Jesse's absolutely right. You disagree, Jennifer Marmer? No, I think hull bunnies, whole no. You got it. Here is something from Bob in Evanston, Illinois. I recently solved wordled by guessing the word rays. The solution was a rise in guessing rays got me to the correct answer.

I think I should get credit for figuring out the answer without entering another. guess, please order the New York Times to update their scorekeeping system. Let me say this, John. Yeah. If I had the power to issue orders to the New York Times. Yeah. This would be first in your list, right? Yeah.

Yeah, I'd focus on their scorekeeping system. No other complaints otherwise, right, Jesse? No issues or concerns with the New York Times. I stepped on what you were going to say. Would you like to read the freeze without me stepping on it? No, you've, you've, you've, Put your finger on it, let's say. Yeah, I cracked my knuckle all over that.

Yeah. I want everyone to remember that I'm a freelance employee of the New York Times Magazine, which means I am not employed by the New York Times newspaper, nor am I employed by the games section, separate entities. So I cannot order or be held responsible for decisions made. I said the Gaines section, G-A-I-N-S, which is the only section that Stuart Wellington reads. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It would be so great.

Gaining. If the New York Times said a Gaines section, not just even a column, not just a bodybuilding column, but a whole section, a whole insert, like, oh, you have New York Times Magazine, you have T, the style of the Times, and then Gaines. the New York Times guide to getting ripped while eating bagels on a Sunday we know Jesse that you don't play games no you don't play board game you don't love them you don't love them you might be tricked into playing one but you don't games make you anxious yeah I play out of the park baseball

right out of the park baseball meaning what you watch baseball no that's a computer game where you have your own baseball team and you trade guys for other guys and sign contracts And stuff. Do they ever show a game being played or is it all stats? In a little like animation where the guys go around the field like they were on magnets. This is exciting to me. But I usually simulate through the game.

I don't usually play out the games. I usually will simulate a few days at a time. Oh, this goes back. This is a 27 year old game. It started on Windows 98. It's a freaking classic out of the park baseball. I may have to give this a try. It's got a really good arbitration simulation system.

Oh, well, you know, I've been looking for one. Yeah. But you've never wordled, right, Jesse? No, I haven't ever wordled. My wife and mother-in-law will sometimes wordle. Or Spelling Bee? Maybe they spelling bee. Spelling Bee, wordle connections.

Those are the big three these days. You've got a couple of new ones in there. Pips. Aside from the crossword. What did you say? Pips? Oh, yeah, there's Pips. Jennifer, what's Pips?

I haven't played Pips. It's like Domino's? It's like Domino's. It's like Domino's. And then they have like sections where, you know, if the Pips in this need to add up to a certain number or these ones all have to equal each other. And you have to figure out where each one goes. Okay. I do mafia awards.

that's not the New York Times I do I do Centipede Centiped's a good game that's at the Musei Mechanique let me understand this let me understand Yeah when you do wordle for people who don't know it's a game right

right and one two three four five and and you're trying to guess an unknown word and your first guess is always a five-letter word and your first guest is always blind you just guess some five-letter word, and then the game shows you if the letter turns green, that means that that is the correct letter in the right place.

If it turns yellow, that means the letter is used in the word, but it's in the wrong position. And then if it's grayed out, then you don't use that letter. That letter isn't in the word at all. And in this situation, R-A-I-S-E, that is obviously the exact same letters as arise.

So once Bob would have guessed R-A-I-S-E, ISE would have turned green. They were in the right position. And A-N-R would have turned yellow because they're both used in the word, but they're in, respectively in the wrong positions. And he says that he should, just by guessing rays, he should automatically win? Is that right?

Do I understand that correct? Yeah, I think so. Or he like wants a special, like, it's, the solve is better when he gets to the right word than like having to guess from like not having every letter in there. I guess his argument would be. So, you know, when you complete the wordle, it obviously everything here is a game. it's gamified. So it'll give you your stats.

And you get, you know, like you get ranked. Well, you guessed it in four, in four guesses. I think you have up to five guesses, right, before you lose. And then you obviously have the opportunity to automatically share your results with people in your world so you can brag about. I got it in three today or I got it in two today. Very, very rarely, it's totally wild. You could get it in one, right? I got it in one once and it didn't save to my account.

So as far as my stats know, I've gotten a one guess zero times, but I know I got it once and I'm pissed. What was the word? Do you remember the word? Dream. Whoa. Yeah. Are you sure you didn't dream it? No.

You didn't dream this situation? I'm not sure. No. That does feel like a dream. Yeah. That's the dream, right? You put in one word and it's like, yeah, all green. Green green, green.

The dream is that you're in the thrift store and you find a really amazing baseball card. Yeah, that's also the dream. The dream is where I'm like running away from somebody, but it's really slow. I can't move fast enough. The dream is I go back to visit the literary agency where I worked in the 90s. It turns out I never officially quit and I have a pile of work that I haven't done in 25 years. And I have to go back and do it. Everyone's mad at me.

The dream, I'm sorry, the dream is where you record the 2000 album Love slash Hate featuring the hit song, Shodiest. You didn't get it, Bob, I'm sorry. If you had put a rise in there, you would have gotten greens across the board. Yes, and one, one and done.

That's the dream. Instead, all you got was a rise out of me because I'm mad at you. Just understand. You got it in two. That's great. Maybe you should be playing, I mean, honestly, I stopped playing wordle in spelling B. Because I just felt like I was getting addicted to something that was a time wasteer as opposed to when I could be spent reading a book or even a popular subwritten.

I started to feel more productive than trying to solve that wordle. But one thing that is addictive about them comes in sharing your results and trying to do better. and get braggie in front of your peer group. And frankly, if you're wordling to brag, that's a bad way of living, honestly,

Bob, sorry. Be very happy with yourself. Wordle to brag or braggle to word. Yeah. And by the way, that. Right.

And I'm braggled to word, wordle to brag and faggle because it's terrible game. Bad game, boggle. Wow. Sorry to fuck your yum, everybody.

Bogle lovers. but it's terrible. I've said a million times. Well, I mean, when you shake up the boggle cube and the words fall in there, the letters are facing in the wrong directions. It's not elegant. No.

Not game. It's not a good game. It's bad. You got it in, too, Bob. You did a good job. Earmuff, Peggy Hill. Yeah. Here's a letter from Amelia.

I, Amelia, am an early bird. But my husband is a night owl. I never thought about that. Early bird, night owl. two bird metaphors. Makes sense. One generalized, one specific. That's right.

We have a trail cam now in Maine. My wife was a whole human being in our own right watches constantly. We've seen skunks. We've seen dears. It's all pointed at our snowy backyard. And then we have this owl. And all she's ever wanted was to see an owl. Last summer, I didn't know this.

But as we were driving along, I saw at twilight, I saw an owl fly by. I'm like, hey, there's a cool owl. And she's like, I've never seen an owl. I missed it. I've never seen an owl. Now she gets to see an owl all the time because we got this is an owl that comes into our yard and just sits in the snow for a long time. I've seen an owl. Here in urban Los Angeles, I saw an owl.

Really? Hanging out in a tree. Yeah, it was cool. Owls are cool. They're among the top birds. Is there any chance that you would feel comfortable snapping a photo of that owl on your cam at some point and sharing it. Oh, yeah.

Because that sounds really special. Yeah. He's a fun little owl. He just flies into the middle of the yard and sits in the snow for long periods of time. I don't know what he's doing. I think of owls being up in the tree. He's trying to pass some mouse bones.

That's what he's doing. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, what do you call that? Not a bolus owl pellet, I guess. Anyway. Probably thinking about the next time a kid's going to ask him about how many licks it takes to get to the set of a lot. Yeah, that's probably what he's thinking about. Yeah. He's counting. He's probably like, oh, I got to get a new mortarboard hat to look really smart.

You guys know our friend, you can know guys know our friend. Chris Fairbanks, stand-up comedian, Chris Fairbanks. Yeah, of course, Chris Fairbanks. One of my favorite guys in the world, one of the funniest comics out there, he has a little chunk about owls wearing mortar boards. Oh, yeah. And the part that I love, the part that I love the most that I think of whenever I see an owl is. That's funny. I haven't seen you on campus all year. You know what? I remember that joke now. That's probably where I got my owl wearing a mortarboard bit.

So sorry about that. Chris Fairbanks. Everyone look them up. Chris Fairbanks. I, Amelia, am an early bird. My husband is a night owl. I go to bed around 10 p.m. He stays up until one or two.

He frequently asked me to help him with a chore as soon as I say good night. Some of these chores include gathering trash for the next day or hanging just one. sheet of drywall. Wow. When I say no, he will roll his eyes, sigh heavily, and accuse me of never wanting to do anything. I don't wake him up at 7 a.m. for chores. My bedtime should be respected in the same way. Please rule that the task must be discussed before 8 p.m.

and make him stop sighing and rolling his eyes. I want to ask, you ever do any chores at night? You ever hang any drywall at night, Jennifer, Jesse? No way. Have you ever hung any drywall at all? Never. Yeah. I might do some stuff like this at night if no one lived in my house.

Yeah. Because it's like when nobody's going to bother you, it's all quiet and you don't have anything better to do, you know? Yeah. I understand the impulse toward night chores, but it's not. Yeah, it's not my choice. Sometimes it can be very satisfying when your partner has gone to bed and you think you're about to go to bed, but then you get a second wind and you just do the dishes. We leave the dishes till the next morning. That's just the way we are.

I mean, those are households that don't do that, but we do because I got to live. Yeah. But then that's always very pleasant, like midnight dish stew. like and you know in the morning your partner's going to wake up and go out there and be like hey i guess we live with some magical elves or something i also cobble some shoes at one or two a.m. The other there was a Saturday night not long ago when we had just gotten back from Maine and our daughter's cat had pooped in its carrier and we thought we got all the poop out of its long fur because it's Maine Coon cat and my wife

went to bed. The cat was stinkly resting in its cat bed. And I was like, I am, I was like, I can go to bed now, but I, uh, I'm not convinced we got all the poop out of that fur. And I was right. And I was really up quite late. Now, this was not, this is an ill-advised chore, I must say, be combing poop out of the cat's fur at midnight after. a couple of martinis. Oh my God. The cat gets mad because, as you both know, I got my arm all scratched up and then I got cat scratch fever out of it.

That's why I think chores should be done in the light of day. Yeah. Dry wall is a morning chore, I dare say. I mean, I don't even want to fold laundry at night. And like, there are times where like before the kids go to bed where I'm like, okay, I'm going to get the kids to bed and then I'm going to watch my. my programs and fold laundry and put it away. And then as soon as my son Ezra is asleep, I'm like,

I should also be sleeping. And the motivation that I thought I had is long gone. So I can't imagine hanging dry well. I know this couple does have a baby. They mentioned in the letter. I just, I cut it out. And the baby does keep getting into the electrical. Yeah.

We got to cut open this wall to get the baby out again. That means I'm going to have to hang some more. drywall tomorrow night. They also have a fixer upper house. It's like it's not like they're just hanging drywall for for funsy. No, I get it. I get it and I understand, but I'm going to say of all of the possible chores you should not be doing at night after a long day, especially if you have a baby and you're exhausted

is any kind of construction. Yeah. Like I'm sure there, like it's just it can be dangerous. You could hurt yourself. You could, you know, I don't know if you're using a regular hammer and nail. on that or whether you're using one of those nail guns. But if it's a nail gun in particular, don't hang your drywall at the end of it. Like, be fresh.

Be fresh. And certainly don't roll your eyes and sigh at your partner when you ask them to do a chore at 10 p.m. And they're like, no, I'm going to bed. Yeah. I get annoyed. And I don't want to say anything negative about Shane, my husband, because he's really great. And sometimes I can be a real bee. feel like, not necessarily here, like at home. Like, if I'm having a bad mental health day, I can

really be not nice about it. So I don't want to sound mean. But there are times where I'm like, okay, I'm going to go to bed and then he'll start telling me a story about something that he's, that happened during the day, or it's very innocuous. And I think a nicer partner would be like interested in hearing about it. But I'm like, I just said I was going to bed. Why are you talking to me. That's not a, that's perfect. You are perfectly within your rights right there. I don't even want to be talked to.

I couldn't imagine him being like, can you help me gather the trash? Yeah. No, because, you know, an important part of sleep hygiene is routine. And part of the routine is not, it's not just when you are asleep that you need sleep hygiene. Part of the routine is getting your whole body ready circadian rhythm-wise to become ritualistically unconscious and begin your dreaming. It's TikTok o'clock. I have to start scrolling until I fall asleep with my phone in my hand. Okay. Now, that's not good sleep hygiene, I dare say. No. No. You sure? But, you know, but whatever you need to do. Like, this is probably the most personal time of your life. You are not sharing your max. marriage when you're asleep. That's why people of means should get large beds or two villas

separated by a reflecting pool. So they can visit each other, but they can sleep. Sleep is very personal and it needs to be respected. And I'll tell you what, Jennifer, you're not wrong for getting, well, I'm not going to even say getting annoyed at shame. I'm saying you're not wrong for feeling that difference between your sleep routine and Shane's sleep routine. And it's not wrong for you to stand up for your own sleep routine, which is not listening to any more of his dumb stories after a certain period of time. I'm sure his stories are great. Sorry, Shane, you know what I'm just joking. We also just don't have time to catch up because our kids are swollen. I know it's hard. Every time we talk to

each other, they yell at us to stop talking to each other. So. Right. Well, that's, yeah. You are also right to stand up to your kids and say, no, we also are humans. Oh, yeah. We need to talk. I know that you. I know that you. I know they do. All I do. All I do. all day with them is argue. I would love a day where I didn't have to negotiate anything. Oh, I'm sorry. Those days will come. I'm sure.

When they leave. I love them. I love my kids. I love my husband. I don't want to sound like otherwise. Anyway. Yeah. No, I understand.

I just had a, yeah. But I mean, with my own partner, my own person who's a whole human being in her own right. In the mornings, she gets up earlier than me because she goes to teach high school. And so she's got an hour head start on me by the time I'm opening my eyes.

And I get up pretty early too. But it's like I need, and, you know, she's had an hour to sort of think about all the things that you think about in the morning. And then she naturally wants to talk about the things that are like coming up this week. What's happening later today? What's your plan? And sometimes I just say, I'm not ready to talk about any of that stuff yet. I'm just opening my eyes and getting my first look at.

Reddit for the day. Please. Just give me a 20 minutes. So yeah, that's not supportive husbanding, I must say, Amelia's husband. Yeah. You don't, Amelia doesn't have to help you with it. And I think Amelia's being more than reasonable. If you want her help with something, ask before 8 p.m. But honestly, don't hang drywall at night. Yeah. Wear your sunglasses at night. Obviously. Because your future is so bright. Because we're going to take a little break. Yeah, let's take a break. We'll be back in just a second. All right, here's a letter from Andrew. I'm an amateur ornithologist with a deep love of birds. My dispute is against- I would love it if Andrew had written. I'm a professional ornithologist who hates birds. My dispute is against many of the 50 states. Many states share the same

state bird. For example, the Northern Cardinal is the state bird of seven states. And And the Western Meadow Lark is the state bird of six states. I demand a ruling that all 50 states should have a unique state bird. Each of the 50 states should have a unique state bird. 50 states, 50 birds. That's called the 50 bird doctrine. That's what Howard Dean ran for president on that basis. Yeah.

I would like, I would also like. That's the thing. He was doing a bird call. Yeah. I would also like an injunction against Utah. Their state bird is the California goal. Wow. Talk about stolen valor.

No state bird should have the name of a different state in its name. I think that much is obvious. I just want to, can I break in with an opinion before I even throw to you, John? Yeah. Utah, you're a beautiful state. Some problematic politics, but I know we got a lot of nice listeners in Utah. We're huge in Utah for some reason.

I feel like our audience is dramatically overrepresented in Utah. I love it. I love the Great Salt Lake. Love those salt flats. I couldn't test my rocket car without the salt flats. I went to Salt Lake City once with my dad. Cool. It was nice, you know, you got the soda and everything.

Anyway. You have the best real housewives franchise. Continue. Okay. I feel like I've said enough nice things about Utah, right? Yeah, yeah. So you get everybody ready for this? Yeah.

That's pathetic. This California golf thing is, pathetic. Do you not have birds of your own Utah? They might not. I don't know. It's pretty desolate. We have not covered Utah, I believe, in e pluribus motto yet, because we would have touched on this issue. Because this is not just a California goal, which is bad enough that it has California in the name, but it is a true, it's a seagull. Yeah. It's, it's not a salt lake goal. It's a seagull. How's it even, what's it even doing there? Utah. What's the best

bird of Utah. I don't want to hear about this gull. The Golden Eagle is the Utah's official state bird of prey. Yeah, that's a good one. The American AvoSet is ranked as a top Utah bird by local birders found on Antelope Island. Anyway, there are a lot of other options there. Yeah, we have covered a number of state birds, and the letter writer Andrew is absolutely correct, that there are a lot of doubles. Um, indeed, it's, uh, you know, the state bird of Massachusetts and the state bird of Maine are both the chickadee.

Of course, they used to be the same state at one point, but I don't know. I don't think that's, I don't think that's so hot. The main state bird should be the osprey as far as I'm concerned, because I, I like those and I see them around all the time. Uh, the cardinal is a great bird. That's why everyone wants it. But these things aren't decided by the states necessarily. usually they're suggested by school children who then as a class project

will nominate a cheese or a muffin or a animal or whatever and bring it to the state legislature and it's all part of a civics lesson usually in like fifth, sixth or seventh grade. A lot of these things were decided by children and indeed I can't remember what state it was

but after, I think it was after Massachusetts passed the resolution supported in part by my friend Ben Lurch's younger sister Kate, that the corn muffin should become the state muffin of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The state legislature, after they passed that, they're like, they passed a new law, which was no more suggestions from kids,

just not allowed anymore. Kids cannot petition things to be state things anymore. We don't want to have to be the bad guy with kids, the state legislators. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, there's, There's nothing that we can do. We don't have the jurisdiction to enact the 50 bird doctrine.

You know what I just convinced my state legislator to do? He's going to introduce a resolution to make the official animal of the state of California, Stankis, the farting rat from the stankus the rat comic books that I bought from some little kids at the flea market. Cool. I requested it, so it's allowed. Yeah, you're not a child. Kids didn't request it. I'll tell you what, American Samoa's got to get on top of it because they don't have any, any bird at all.

You probably have kick-ass birds in American Samoa. I'm sure they got incredible birds. You know what I mean? I was ready to dismiss the presence of any birds in Utah, but in American Samoa, you know they got birds. They got birds. Yeah. The Virgin Islands, they're a territory and they got a great state bird, the banana quit. Banana quit

It's a tannager And it looks It's got a yellow breast And it looks like a banana Yeah Well I don't know what to tell you I appreciate you Andrew I think you're right

Obviously Jesse feels very strongly And I join him and saying That California gull has got to go But you're gonna have to do it State by state And as they say bird by bird Who wrote bird by bird? And Lamott

And Lamott Yeah Bird by Bird With my mother-in-law Yeah. Hey, you know what? Look, this is what I want to say to Andrew, actually. And this is for real. You know how these things got named? Usually just sort of by accident. Lots of times, though, as I mentioned, it's like seventh graders petitioning the legislature and going to testify. They're putting in the work, Andrew. They're not writing to a podcast demanding a solution to every problem nationwide. They're going state by state. Bird by bird, they're putting in the work. If you want to, if you want to, if you want to shoot that California gull down, then you got to go to Utah and talk to the state legislature and maybe move there. I think this may literally be the first time in the history of God's

United States of America that an enthusiastic burder has had to be prompted to start a letter writing campaign. Yeah, exactly. But don't shortcut it through here. You got to write the letters to the state legislatures. They're the ones who decide. And when you're writing to them, tell them to change the state beverage from milk to something else. There are too many of you have milk as your state beverage. Gross. I get it. There are a lot of cows out there, a lot of dairy farmers and so forth. I get it. But there are a lot of beverages, too. Just use your same mail merge from that time you did that anti-cat mailing. We have a trail cam now in Maine and are pointed out back of our house. and my wife, who's a whole human being in our own right, watches it incessantly.

We see a lot of fun stuff. We saw it. There's a skunk that comes, you know, wobbling around every now and then. They walk real funny. A lot of deer. But every now and then, there's an owl. A big old owl and it just sits in the middle of a lawn for some reason and just hangs out there. I love birds.

They're terrific. Here's something from John. I didn't write this. This is a different person named John. Speaking of live shows. Weird, but okay. After listening to the sandwich-cutting dispute from the latest live in Seattle episode, which just dropped a couple weeks ago,

are live from the Neptune Theater in Seattle, Washington. John writes, I wanted to comment on the best way to cut a sandwich. The dispute was triangular or? It was the person, one of the litigants cut the sandwich, um, like length,

not length, width ways, like across the middle. Yeah, across. Across the middle. Cross the middle. Like a horizontal. Parallel and perpendicular to the side. Parallel and perpendicular to the side.

Yes. That's right. As opposed to triangles. As opposed to triangles or as opposed to a vertical line down the middle, which they felt was more acceptable. Right. I see what you're saying. Right.

And more symmetrical. Yeah. Right. Yes. And that's a good point because. most, you know, pre-slice loaves of bread, they got a little, uh, they got a little extra bread at the top. Right. You got a little hat.

It's not just a, it's not just a square. It's got a little hat. Exactly. Well, I know that Kenji Lopez-Zalt really loves a triangular cut because it makes the sandwich dipable into soup and also exposes extra internal the guts of the sandwich to more, you know, there's more surface area exposure of the filling of the sandwich. I am a triangle guy now. I grew up being a vertical guy.

Now I'm a triangle guy. But listen to this John here. Speaking of the little hat. My favorite way, this is John again, not me, the other John. My favorite way to cut a sandwich is into a sailboat. Jesse, can you see the diagram to see how this is done? So you have to picture a slice of sandwich bread that has a little hat on it. Yeah.

A little bit of that dough that's, spilled out over the edges of the pan and grew into the equivalent of a muffin top, but for sandwich bread. Right. You slice that off. Yeah. So now you have a cigar shape. Right.

Then you cut the remaining square into triangles by cutting corner to corner. Right. The cigar shape becomes the hull of the boat. That's right. The triangles become the sails of the boat. That's right. This is genuinely impressive. I'm grateful to.

John for signing and dating his picture. This is a court after all. Yeah, he did. He did sign and date it. It's not my signature either. It's a different John. Speaking of someone, speaking as someone who's been gathering a lot of documents for the Mexican consulate lately,

I would recommend that he take this to the Secretary of State's office and get it apostilleed or else it's never going to be acceptable. You've got to get that aposteal. Where are we going to? I guess we'll show this picture on our social media, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We'll put this up on social media. People who don't get it. If you don't understand. Yeah, exactly. People who don't, right. If you don't understand the sandwich, I'm sorry that you lack John's incredible imagination. This does look like a sailboat.

And I'm going to say right now it looks like a, a single mast, foreign aft rigged sailboat with a Marconi-style mask, not a gaff rig, with a nice big billowy mainsail and a nice big billowy jib and then a cigar-shaped hull

John says this is the added advantage this shape of providing not only the biteable corners that Kenji so loves but exposing even more of the interior of the sandwich and most of all it's just fun and I agree. Good job, John.

What's your favorite sandwich these days? I was just in England and I love love refrigerator sandwiches from England. They're all triangular. They've all been sitting there for days. I don't know why I love that form factor so much. The way they stack them that's just like, yeah, like egg mayonnaise and rocket or coronation

chicken or tuna and sweet corn or potted shrimp or potted shrimp and spotted dick. I love all of those. What's coronation chicken? That's like a... Coronation chicken is like a curry chicken. Yeah. Corrie chicken salad, basically. Pottered shrimp and potted...

Pottered shrimp and Spotted Dick are actual things, but they're not sandwich fillings. I was just making a little joke. What's your favorite sandwich these days, though? Gotta be Jelly Deal. Jelly deal and gentlemen's relish. I do love gentlemen's relish. Oh, I got to remember to put that on my holiday list. Cheese and pickle is one of the options.

Cheese and pickle is really good, Branson pickle. I think I would eat cheese and pickle. That sounds pretty good to me. I don't love an English sandwich, to be honest. I'm fascinated with them, but if you had to, you can go any way you want. You don't have to be an English sandwich. Like, you're ordering a sandwich. There's those ones with cucumbers.

For me, a sandwich all day long. I mean, I was just in Santa Cruz for the bullseye show there, which you can now watch on YouTube featuring Adam Scott and Boots Riley and Scott Simpson and Glenn Washington and The Merman all on YouTube. It was a fantastic lineup, wonderful show. But being in Northern California, I was so grateful to go to a sandwich shop in downtown Santa Cruz that has a good sour roll.

A sour roll is really essential to me in my sandwiches. I can eat a sliced sandwich bread sourdough, but it's pretty unremarkable usually. I need the chew of the roll. So it's like a, okay, it's a sourdough roll. That's what a sour roll is. Yeah, but it's got. Exactly.

Crest all over the place. Crest all over the place and very flavorful bread. I'm not a sweet bread guy. No. I want a savory bread. And for me, I'm going to say it's going to be a sour roll. Salami, hard salami. Yeah.

And like San Francisco style salami, frankly. and cheese. I'm flexible on the cheese. I'll often go with Swiss, sometimes just provolone. Yeah. I'm flexible on the cheese. And then I want almost everything on there,

and I actually like sprouts a lot on there. Here we go. So I don't need sprouts. I'm glad to just have tomatoes, tomato pickled lettuce. I can't eat the onions, or I would. I like mustard and mayo. I don't need oil and vinegar,

but that would substitute for the mustard and mayo, I guess, probably, if that's what was available. That sharp flavor and then that rich flavor, you know. But to me, to me, it's all about a flavorful meat and a flavorful bread. If you just said, I'm going to serve you mayo, mustard, and salami on a sour roll, I would be like, thank you. Num, num, num. Jennifer, what do you got?

What's your sandwich order? My favorite sandwich is from a place in Silver Lake on Sunset Boulevard called Bodega Park. It used to be Black Hog, and they've changed concepts many times, but have always kept this sandwich on the menu. And it's their olive oil tuna sandwich, and that's got, you know, instead of an olive oil, or instead of a tuna salad. Sort of a mayonnaise tuna salad. It's with olive oil and it's also got a soft boiled egg, arugula, red onion, balsamic, salt and pepper.

I like almost all sandwiches and, you know, a cheese steak or an Italian or hoagie or or almost anything, but I got to say, you've unlocked something for me because I would say baseline best sandwich in the world for me. No, I didn't have to be from a particular place. A tuna sandwich is my favorite. Yeah. I just love a tuna sandwich. Just a classic.

Yeah, I'm going to go eat one while we take a break. It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We are taking a quick break. John, what are you up to this summer? In the real world. Well, Jesse, I'm not in the real world. I'm in Maine. I'm living in the dark literary imagination of Stephen King,

enjoying my Widows Bay era, even though that's set in Massachusetts. Incredible show. Captures the mood. And I am reading Moby Dick. I'm now doubling down. And reading Moby Dick aloud into a microphone using a terrible main accent,

folks who subscribe to my substack at hodgeman.substack.com have been following along for a while I've been reading Moby Dick aloud. All of the back episodes as they were, all of the chapters so far are there in the archives for your perusal. But the fun part about Moby Dick is each chapter is kind of a novel unto itself. I read it aloud. I talk about what I'm reading. I talk about some historical background that I learn in the moment or doing a little research and talk about whaling and boats and everything nautical and it's a lot of fun. So you also,

by the way, if you subscribe at hodgeman.substack.com, even if you subscribe just for free, you will get an update from me about anything else that might be going on in my personal and professional life that you might want to know about. Upcoming appearances where I might be going, where you might find stuff that I'm working on, whatever it is, and just general musings for me. hoddman.substack.com. It's a fun little community over there. I really enjoy the conversations I have in the comments with folks.

And you can ask me anything over there as well as listen to me. Read, Moby Dick. We're going to get through it, all of it, by the end of this summer. So now's the time to join us. subscribe hodgeman.substack.com. Jesse, what about you? I, of course, remain the proprietor of the Put This On Shop at Put This On Shop.com, where among other things, I have just posted a size extra large crew jacket from the television

show touched by an angel. Okay. And a jacket from a jacket from the movie, a crew jacket gift, crew gift jacket from the movie Bounce that has the inscription. with many thanks, BA and GP, that being Gwyneth Paltrow

and Ben Affling. You never know what you're going to find at the thrift store when you are in Los Angeles, but of course, also many beautiful items that I recently brought back

from Mexico, including men's and ladies' jewelry, bootleg superhero figurines, all kinds of things. Just go to put this on shop. com to find out more and get some

something great. If you've got someone in your life that's difficult to buy presents for, go to put this on shop.com. You're going to find something fun, interesting, unique that they'll prize for the rest of their lives. Jesse's got incredible taste. As you know, I've gone to put this on shop.com many a time to get a present for my dad and other friends that I'm like, I don't know what to get this person. And then all of a sudden, there it is, staring it ahead of me, Alf cards and handkerchiefs and beautiful rings and tie pins. You know, something will leap out at you and then it'll leap in the mailbox to you and then you'll give it to that person and they'll love you even more. Put this on shop.com. Let's get back to the case. Hey, we've got a question here

from Gary from Location Unknown. Yeah. In the episode, So Help Me, Goth or whatever, you say that Pasadena is the most goth city in the Los Angeles area. You even have t-shirts. We're claiming the Pasadena Golf Club. We still have those up on the Max Fund Store. Yeah, the Pink One is still there, Maxfundstore.com. Maxfundstore.com. Pasadena Gough Club. We'd be made up at the pie and burger. Gary says I bought one of each style, both black and pink, for both of my kids. Hooray. But whenever a goth sees the shirt, they all say the same thing. Pasadena is not the most goth city in L.A. It's Burbank. I was going to try to do a Noel Fielding voice there, but I couldn't quite pull it off. Well, it wasn't that far off.

Anyway, they say, anyway, the goths. John, this is Clem Fandango. Right. Got you. Uh, anyway, the gotts all say that it's not Pasadenaed. It's Burbank being the most goth city in L.A. Magnolia Park section of Burbank in particular is the epicenter of goth culture. It is tons of goth friendly vintage and thrift stores. And a goth can find anything they need at the Mystic Museum. I don't want you to reverse your ruling or anything. Okay, then.

All right, Gary. Just admit. Admit it to all Max Fund members that Burbank is the most goth city in the L.A. area. So we're now here in the new Max Fund headquarters in downtown L.A. Yeah. And I asked Jesse Thorne, what is going on in downtown L.A.? And he gave me basically a two-hour lecture on the history of Los Angeles' development since the 20s, which was fantastic. I basically read City of Courts to you out loud. Yeah. And so tell me, what's your take on Gary's contention here? Well, first of all, I don't think that we claim Pasadena was the most goth city in Los Angeles, did we?

We said it, but it was very tongue-in-cheek. Yeah, right. Pasadena is not got goth at all. That's why the Pasadena Golf Club meets at the Pionberg. Yeah, but the thing was like, oh, yeah, Pasadena is the most goth part of L.A. But actually, there is a lot of creepy stuff there. And, like, that was kind of the vibe. There's a haunted bridge.

Gavle, gavel, gavel. It wasn't gavel, gavel. No. I think, well, first of all, Gary, of course you're right that when it comes to Gothic retail, Burbank is unmatched. Just as it is unmatched in the area of model and hoppy. stores. Mm-hmm.

It is, it is the, it is the most Gothic retail in the Los Angeles area. It is also the most model trains.

Uh, the most teaky record stores. Uh-huh. All right. If you want to buy Exotica records, like it was 1995.

Um, if you're Corey Doctoro, if you're our friend Corey Doctoro, get thee to Burbank. It is. I guess the only question in my mind is if I'm, if I was going to be, first of all, obviously Burbank is more goth in terms of culture than Pasadena. Right. You could make arguments about what city has the biggest graveyards or whatever.

And I'm not going to get into that. Because I'm just not a big, like, you know, a haunted tour guy, death tour guy. Neither of us, none of us is a goth. So the only, the only hesitance I have to like unreservedly declare that Burbank is the goth capital of the Los Angeles area is that here in Los Angeles, I would say a significant majority of the goth community is Latino. and Burbank is not a Latino capital of Southern California. And, you know, there are a variety of flavors of goth, a variety of flavors of majority Latino gauph.

Like, there are plenty of Latinos in the like, we listen to Skinny Puppy community. Right. But then there is like the kind of like, uh, nightmare before Christmas backpack community. Yeah, that's like a mole. goth. Right, mall goth, right. Like a cute goth. Like, that is very Latino-centric in Southern California, that culture. Like, Latino and female, so Latina. And, like, I live in northeast Los Angeles, and when they play, like, they have, like, an outdoor screening series at Heritage Square Museum near my house, which is, like, a set of Victorian houses. And when that, when that,

happens and there is anything that could be considered Goff screening there, you know, even if it's like lost boys or something. Yeah. The crowd is, you know, 80% Latino and like 65% female. Right. So in that case, I would be more inclined to say that it might be somewhere in East LA or South L.A. just because of demographics. Can I say something, though? Yeah. Why does there need to be a gothiest part of L.A.? Why not both? Porque Nolo's dose goth.

Yeah, that's fair. I mean, you know, how about this? Burbank can be the most martial arts museume section of Raleh because there is a martial arts museum there. Right.

I think it's just a martial arts studio with some stuff on the walls. It's definitely the most gun store. Burbank is full of all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Burbank is a miracle. I want to go shopping in Burbank. Look, Burbank is a miracle. It's also the most AMC of L.A. That's another great point. AMC theater chain. Oh, that's another great point. There's so many, and they're all right there next to each other. Yeah. If you, if you're, how about this? We're not going to declare an official goth capital. We can say the goth retail sent, the, the, the central goth

retail district, we can say, is in Burbank. I think that's fair to say. And I think it's also Southern California, Burbank is Southern California's capital for riding a horse to an AMC movie theater. Yeah. Burbank contains multitudes. And there is, and so does gothiness. Any Max Fun listener knows about the Burbank Equestrian District. Yes. Yes. And I don't, I certainly don't feel comfortable being a non-goth, proclaiming the goth capital of any place. Never mind L.A. a city I don't live in. Unless Gary is gothie Gary, he shouldn't either. Daniel, you're one of the least goth people, I know, given your penchant for wearing a tie-eyed overalls. But as a person who comes from south of Los Angeles in the, in the

Long Beach area, and who is yourself Latino. Yeah. Do you have any perspective on where the Latino goth community might be most centered in Southern California. I just got to be East L.A., right? I feel like... Right? I was in a punk band for a very long time. Here we go. What was the name of the band?

Struck out. That's a good name. What did you play in the band? I played bass and I yelled. Yeah. Yeah, it was me. And we, when we play, if I were to say like where the Goths were, then if we played closer to East L.A.,

that would be like where it is. Inland Empire honestly has a really good music scene because it's so kind of away from everything. Yeah. Yeah. And we played a lot of shows there and there, I don't know,

it wasn't a ton of goths around. I feel like Goths had their heyday in the 90s, which is kind of before my time. But when I did see the occasional goth, probably when I was closer to the heart of L.A., East L.A. But like you see, you see these ladies with,

purple, uh, yeah, like the Disney like goth kind of thing on. Yeah. There's a lot of that. Sure. Yeah. Goth also contains multitudes, different styles and flavors of goth. That's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman. Judge John Hodgman created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. Megan Rizadegh runs our social media, the podcast edited by AJ McKin, our video editor, Daniel Spear, our producer, Jennifer Marmer. You can find photos from the show on our Instagram account at Instagram.com slash Judge Sean Hodgman. We're also on TikTok and YouTube at Judge John Hodgman Pod.

Follow and subscribe and check out our episodes and our video-only content. And if you want to hear more of the member-only mailbag, it's easy. Just join Maximum Fun for $5 a month at maximumfund.org slash join JJHO. That's maximum fund.org slash join JJHO. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network of artists' own show. Shows. Supported. Directly. By you.