Judge John Hodgman - Crumber vs. Crammer

Episode Date: June 27, 2012

Scott and Jennifer are a married couple who both admit they're kind of messy -- but who's the real slob here?

it's the judge john hodgman podcast i'm bailiff jesse thorne this week crummer versus crammer scott and jennifer are a married couple who both admit they're kind of messy people at home scott makes piles of paper and clothes that are counterintuitive to the cleaning process but he vacuums and wipes down counters and tables compulsively jennifer prefers to clean by organizing work files bills the, the kids' toys, and says her organization skills make her less of a slob. Who's the real slob here? Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. But you see, in dealing with me, Scott and Jennifer didn't know they were dealing with a staunch character. And I tell you, if there's anything worse than dealing with a staunch judge, S-T-A-U-N-C-H, staunch, there's nothing worse, I'm telling you. I don't weaken no matter what. Jesse, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he has hired Sir James Dyson to clean his home? I do. I do. Very well, Judge Hodgman. I do.

Very well, Judge Adjman. Of course, there shall be an immediate summary judgment if either one of you are able to name the piece of culture that I was paraphrasing as I walked into the courtroom. Jennifer? No. Okay, Scott? I do not. Pride and Prejudice.

No, you are incorrect, sir. Good guess, though. Good guess. Thanks. And would you please remove your microphone From your mouth and beard You are very close to that microphone, sir How's that? That's much better

Alright I was quoting from Judge John Hodgman Courtroom favorite Documentary, Grey Gardens Did you ever see the movie Grey Gardens, either of you? No Okay, this is a movie Did you ever see the movie Gray Gardens, either of you? No. Okay. No.

This is a movie that you must see this weekend. It is about two women, a mother and a daughter, grown, who live in a house that is a mess. A terrible mess. What is it, Gray Gardens? Gray Gardens. G-R-E-Y space G-A-R-d-e-n-s i'm very glad that you guys did not win a summary judgment because that happened last week and it really threw me off

i have to get much more obscure in my in my summary judgments uh and i'm just going to cut to it now normally i would talk to you guys for a little bit about things and then ask you about your evidence but i'm going to skip to the evidence right away because i think it is absolutely pertinent your house is a mess guys you send in some pictures of your house and it looks it really looks terrible in there i'm just gonna say right now and that's moderate that's not even like that's not even the worst that it's been Let me describe to the humans listening at home or in their cars or on the subway or while paragliding at this very moment. First of all, paragliders, turn off the podcast. All right? You've got to concentrate on paragliding safely. Your house is a wreck. You obviously have – you've put a number of photographs here into,

even this Word document that you've dropped photographs into is a mess. Sorry, guys. That's all, Jen. Sorry, Jen. It wasn't a mess when I put it together. What's messy about it? Well, first of all, your photos are very small, and many of them are out of focus,

and you have put them inelegantly into some kind of word table that you've put together. You may not want to hear this about your home or your word processing photo sharing skills, but in a world where there are lots of sophisticated ways of sharing photographs, this one is bringing me right back to 1999. I think I would agree with that. Okay. Jen, you have provided us with a document that looks like you created it in Windows for Work groups. And, you know, essentially what I'm looking at is a Word document that looks like a crazy quilt of a bunch of different tiny photos.

I was trying to say paper. No, I understand. But you understand that this screen is not paper. I'm pretty sure that Jennifer thinks that the internet works by someone printing something out, delivering it to someone who then feeds it into your computer, Judge Hodgman. Don't you think it's easier to work from looking through, you can flip through paper and look and see and write notes?

Well, in this case, you're right. In 1999. Yeah, Jesse received the email. He printed it out and then faxed it to my office across town. And then I had it bike messengered to me on double rush speed. So I'm now unfurling the thermal paper now to look at this portrait of disorder that is in your home. And indeed, all these little pictures have the same effect of looking at even one picture. It's almost fractal-like in its messiness.

Because I look at one picture, and there's so much stuff around on the, like, so there's a picture of your living room, and there's so much stuff on the floor and on the couch and there's a dog in the middle of the floor. It's hard for the brain to even process everything that I'm seeing. So let me ask you a question. Do I see you sitting on the couch there? That's Jen, not me.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Jennifer, that's the one I'm talking about. Am I on the couch in there? Yes. Oh, yes. You can't even see yourself. You're lost amidst a sea of hampers and children's toys. And I think there's a wild dog running through the room.

And I'm very nervous. It's too small for me to see. But I'm very nervous that what I'm seeing on the shelves over to the right of the living room might be a ventriloquist dummy. Is he in there? No, it is. That's Louie. What is Louie? Louie is Scott's ventriloquist dummy

from when he was a little kid. Honestly, I just want to get some credit from the podcast listening audience. I'm going to put this thing up on the internet and you can take a look at it. And I can barely make out the terrifying smudge that is in the upper right-hand quadrant of this photo. And I made a guess.

I made a stab at ventriloquist dummy. But I guess there's just something inherently creepy about ventriloquist dummy that hits the brain just the right way so that I could actually make out what that was. That is a ventriloquist dummy, really? It might be. I don't know. I don't have the pictures in front of me. Okay. If I were going to characterize what we're seeing in these photographs, it's sort of like a nightmare version of an indoor paintball course. Scott, is this really a ventriloquist? Do you have a ventriloquist dummy in your home? I do have a ventriloquist dummy in my home.

Are you talking about not our son standing at the window? Is your son the ventriloquist dummy? Do you have a ventriloquist dummy that you call your son? No, no. We actually have a ventriloquist dummy. Okay, but it's not in that photo? I'm not sure. I think it's our son

that you're talking about. I think you're beginning... Because I don't remember seeing the dummy in the pictures, but, you know... I think you're beginning to get a sense, okay, of the utter chaos

that your lives are. The photo is so small that it does seem like he's wearing a tuxedo or something. It's just very hard to tell. Oh, is he wearing that? Maybe he's wearing the tuxedo or something. It's just very hard. Oh, is he wearing that? Maybe he's wearing the tuxedo pajamas.

They have an answer for everything in this nightmare pile. All right. I will have order. I will have order. Now, I don't want to hear any more about your son dressing up like a ventriloquist dummy in tuxedo pajamas. So how old is your son? He's 20 months. Okay.

So a lot of toys on the floor, a lot of, then in the dining room, it seems like every surface is covered with, it looks like arts and crafts materials, stuff. And there's like an empty, there's an empty drink cup there. And then at the breakfast bar, Scott's work area, Scott, I don't know,

it just seems to have a random pile in the in the kitchen i think you have accidentally left some linoleum lying around on the floor or is that your flooring uh i think that's the flooring but yeah the one the green stuff yeah it's our floor the um well i'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, I know. We are. And then the thing that really captures my attention is in the dining room, in the middle of the hardwood floor, there's just one single pink flip-flop. Oh, stop, Brian. Oh, is that your ventriloquist nummy? That's my daughter. Scott, that was amazing. I've got to say, it sounded like it was coming from Jennifer's Skype line.

Years of practice. Wow, okay. So where is the other flip-flop, guys? Do you know? Probably in the kitchen around the corner from the... Is this a joke? Is this a situation where... I presume you guys watch Property Brothers on HGTV, right?

Oh, you love it. Oh, yeah, you know that one, right? Yeah. It's the one where the Canadian Neanderthal brothers with the big eyebrows get together and try to convince people to buy junky homes that they then renovate into an Ikea catalog. And have you ever noticed on that show when the the people are going in to look at the junkie home like it's it's been it's been dressed to look even junkier so like they'll have a a smashed chandelier in the middle of the living room floor or like a weird or like a weird old window screen or like a dead body or something they're like oh you think they do that on purpose

yeah you don't you don't know about the illusion of Canadian real estate television? You haven't heard? No. You didn't read the other week about the great house hunters fraud of 2012? No. I heard about it. But you're not dressing, you did not dress up these photos to look

to look like as Jesse Thorne would say, a Property Brothers style nightmare pile, right? This is the way it goes. That is how we live. And actually, we were kind of sad, not sad, but we're trying to move. So the house, we've been trying to keep it a little bit cleaner,

and the actual real mess that we typically live in, that's not representative of it. So this is the cleaned up area? Well, no. No, it's not clean. That's just moderate. It's kind of moderate. Jennifer, can I ask you a question? Do you have a brother or sister who's addicted to methamphetamines and has been staying in your house, turning it upside down, looking for copper?

No. No, I don't. All right. So you want to sell this home. So there's a real motivation at this point to get your lives in some semblance of order. You have two children, a dog and a ventriloquist dummy. And a cat. We have two dogs

and a cat. Okay. You have two dogs and a cat. So your lives are a little bit overwhelming. What do you do for a living, Jennifer? I'm a school psychologist. Okay. I'm a teacher. Okay. Scott, just wait till I ask you. Okay. Yes, sir. Scott, are you a teacher by any chance? What a guess I am. I told you, I get to know people pretty well. So, and so you're not working at home too much, or are you doing a lot of work? You're grading papers at home, and you do have work areas at home, that sort of thing? Yeah, I try to avoid it. Okay. And because you're a school psychologist and a teacher, I presume you are desperately poor and cannot hire someone to help you pick up after yourselves. Is that correct, Jennifer?

I mean, I hate to put you on the spot, but that's what's going on, right? That's correct. Yeah. So you're busy and you can't clean up this house properly. Would that be the problem, or is there more to it than that, Jennifer? I think we're both kind of messy. However, the whole impetus for the letter was that I frequently comment on the fact that I think Scott is a bit messier. And I think that his natural inclination is to be messier, whereas mine is to organize and at least try to organize.

Have you ever heard the parable from the biblical parable, those who live in garbage houses should not throw garbage? I've heard something similar to that. Why are you throwing up crumpled up pieces of paper and ventriloquist dummies at your husband when clearly you share some of the blame? Is that not true, Jennifer? Well, it's true.

I'm accepting some of the blame. How are you true, Jennifer? Well, it's true. I'm accepting some of the blame. How are you neater than Scott? Did you look at the evidence? The tiny pictures? Can you see my shelving units? Okay, I see shelving units, but I see that you have difficulty accessing the shelving units because of all of the toys and stuff

piled up in front of the shelving units. Right. Things get piled up and on the organizational systems that I've put into place. Tell me about your organizational systems. Because honestly, here's a really good example. Ask me to look at this photograph of an incredibly messy room and saying, do you see here way in the background a single two-level shelf system? That's not going to convince me that you're- What two-level? system that's not gonna it's not gonna convince me that

you're what two level no look at the closets every closet has a whole big closet organizer in it our pantry i can't i can't see any closets because everything is covered up with used tupperware containers and empty and and like weird spray bottles and and toys and stuff well how about look at you see the laundry bin? And there was that laundry bin with the three bags, and it's labeled hot, cold, and whites. Where are we looking here? Maybe I'm not seeing this.

Maybe the evidence that you sent is hidden. How many pages do you have there? Oh, God. Oh, my God. I don't see that picture either. Whoa, I didn't realize. But it is true. She does have a laundry bin with three different baskets with clear labels, originally made by a label maker, I believe.

Okay. I see now that there's a second page that's small. And what always ends up on top of the laundry basket? Scott? I throw my pillow. We have two pillows each on the bed. And I take the extra pillow, which I don't need when I sleep, and I throw it on top of the laundry bin. Why on earth would you do that, Scott? I don't put it back on the bed. Why would you do that?

Because I don't want it on the floor. We've got dogs. I don't want it covered in dog hair. So I throw it on top of the laundry bin for the evening or for the night, and then I don't want it on the floor. We got dogs. I don't want it covered in dog hair. So I throw it on top of the laundry bin for the evening or for the night and then I don't always take it back. But it stays there. And sometimes throw laundry on top of the pillow, on top of the baskets. So the laundry doesn't get into the baskets because it's on top of the pillow

that's on top of the basket. So you're storing the pillow. I'm having a difficulty understanding this. And Jen, just maintain radio silence for a moment while I tear apart Scott right in front of you. Scott. Yes, sir. So I don't understand. What are you doing with the pillow?

You know how you have two pillows each on the bed? Okay. I don't need one. I only need one when I sleep. So I don't want to throw the pillows each on the bed? Okay. I don't need one. I only need one when I sleep, so I don't want to throw the extra pillow on the floor. So I would throw it on top of the laundry basket, which is near my side of the bed, so it doesn't get covered in dog hair. I would throw it on top of my dresser, but my dresser is usually already piled high with clothing. What size bed do you have? I don't want to know too much about your intimate affairs, but I need to ask these questions. I'm sorry. What size bed do you have? I don't want to know too much about your intimate affairs,

but I need to ask these questions. I'm sorry. What size bed do you have? Queen size bed. A queen size bed that's not big enough. We need a king size? Yes, you do. You have two children and two dogs and two cats.

How many cats do you have, Jennifer? Yeah, but that's going to keep them out of the back. Excuse me, I have order. I know. How many pets do you have, Jennifer? How many cats? We have one cat now. What is a cat?

We had two, but one recently passed. Did you lose one? Was it crushed under a pumpkin in your mudroom? No. What is your cat's name? Monty. What are your dogs' names? Winnie and Rupert.

What kind of dogs are they? Winnie is a chocolate lab, andpert is an american bulldog that's the wild dog that you see in the middle of that picture these are big dogs where do you live outside of philadelphia outside of philadelphia where specifically i don't need your address i just need to know this is a suburb or do you have these dogs have room to run around in oh yeah we have a big backyard there's a big backyard okay do these dogs have room to run around in? Oh, yeah. We have a big backyard. You have a big backyard. Okay. Do you have black sheets on your bed, by the way?

No. Okay. I think there's a correlation between people who have dark colored sheets on their bed and messiness. Really? That's just been my personal observation over time. I'm going to get a lot of letters about that. All right. I'm going to get a lot of letters about that.

All right. So, Jennifer, you feel that you're fighting against a tide of insane pillow-tossing messiness on behalf of Scott. Scott, what are you doing right that Jennifer is doing wrong? I clean with spray bottles and paper towels and vacuums. Do the spray bottles have anything in them? Yes. I actually clean things. Okay. You actually clean things? Tell me what you clean. I vacuum the dog hair, not as often as I should, but Jen can probably count on both hands the number of times she's used the vacuum since we moved in the house. Okay, do you know what? Keep the invective to a minimum. I'm asking you

a specific question. How often do you vacuum? Once a week? Twice a week? Once a month? Once a year? What are we talking about here? What are you taking credit for here? All of those are probably accurate. Maybe once a month. All of them cannot be accurate. It's probably like once a month. Jennifer?

And it depends on who's coming over. If somebody's. Excuse me for a moment. I'm trying to help him. No, don't help him. This is an adversarial situation. Excuse me. But he does.

If I'm going to have spouses on this show, I'm going to make sure that they hate one another. That is my one promise to the listener. If this is going to be the marriage ref, I will make sure that you hate one another. Scott. Yes, sir. I know you guys don't hate each other. We don't. Do you have a routine for vacuuming?

Or as Jennifer seems to be suggesting, it's prompted by whenever another human comes by, you have to pretend to be relatively normal. Right. Yeah. It's more for show. It's emergency. It's emergency vacuuming. Right. Yeah. It's, it's more for show. It's emergency. It's emergency vacuuming. Yes. But the kitchen I clean, even if we're not having company. What does it, what does, what does cleaning the kitchen mean to you?

I empty the dishwasher. I load the dishwasher. I take everything off the counter and spray the counter down and wipe it down and put the shine on the stove top. And yeah, that's pretty much it. Sometimes I sweep. And sometimes you sweep. And why is this not sufficient, Jennifer? What is the problem with this, I think, reasonable effort that Scott is making? No, I don't have a problem with his effort.

He does the cleaning. My issue is the piling. Okay. And like the taking stuff out issue is the piling. Okay. And like the taking stuff out and not putting it back. So would you say that for all of the piling that I'm seeing, so now I've gone on to the second page of tiny unfocused photographs that you sent me. And I do see a pantry that seems to have been nicely organized by you. Yes.

It says, don't ask where the doors are why not where are the doors we took them off when we moved in because they were sliders and you can only see half the closet at a time and then jen ordered new closet doors but she measured incorrectly and the closet doors were too big for the space so So I had them cut down and they broke. And then about four years later, when we decided we were going to start showing the house to the public, I had custom made doors to cover. And are they covered up now? They are covered up now. How long did that project take from start to finish? From the dismantling of the pantry doors to the final actual repairing of the pantry doors? Six years.

Six to seven years? Yes. Life gets away from you in this house, doesn't it? I kind of like the, I don't like the closet doors on. I like to be able to see everything. Okay. You see what I'm dealing with? No.

I really do. You know what, Jennifer? I agree with you. Yes. I like an open kitchen. I like to be able to see what I'm dealing with? No. I really do. You know what, Jennifer? I agree with you. Yes. I like an open kitchen. I like to be able to see what's there. Because that way you are able to see what you are running out of and you can shop smartly. And you can't hide food so that it can rot away.

Right. Do you want to buy our house? No. No closet door? Believe me. And after I put these pictures on the internet, no one will. I would say that the challenge of having an open plan pantry like you have is that it's got to be kept neat all the time. Well, yeah, that is the challenge.

Is this picture representative of how it is? I think so. Yeah. And what about these? So I see these piles. I see Scott, this dresser here. You've got a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 drawer tall boy dresser. And you seem to have draped it with a thousand pairs of jeans and T-shirts.

How are you doing? What I'm seeing here is impossible. Do you have hooks on the side of your dresser? I have hooks on the sides of the dresser so I can hang things up and put them back on without having to fold them. Do you not have a closet? Not much of a closet, no. That sounds very sad. Do you share a closet with your wife?

We do now share a closet because all my clothes were in the basement until we started showing the house and we didn't want people to say, why are all these clothes in the basement? Okay.

So, Jen, if I were to, so, essentially, what are you bringing this case for? Do you want me to instruct your husband to stop putting pillows

where they don't belong? Scott wrote the letter. Okay, then be quiet. Scott? Yes, sir. Why are you inviting abuse by me upon you? What do you hope to gain from this? Most importantly, I would like a final judgment that makes it clear that despite my tendency to pile, that the fact that I clean the kitchen and I vacuum the floors and the stairs and clean the bathtub before the kids take a bath, those things outweigh my tendency to pile.

So you feel that you have. So Jen is actually the messier. You have a reputation. No. Excuse me, Jen. You feel that you unfairly have a reputation as being a messy person? Because the worst thing that you do is that you, instead of putting your clothes away, you throw them at your dresser?

Yeah, and I have a tendency not to put things back where they were, or put things down. Are you the solely... Are you the solely... Sorry, go ahead. You put things down. Are you the solely, are you the solely? Sorry, go ahead. You put things down because why? There's a surface available to put them on and then I forget about them. And are you the one who is primarily guilty of doing this?

I think it's equal, but Jen thinks that I have a greater tendency for these types of behaviors. Jen, do you have hooks on your dresser? No, I do not. What do you do with your extra pillow when you're sleeping? I use it. You use both pillows, okay.

I do, yes. Do you put your clothes away at night? No, not always. What do you do with them? Put them on top of my dresser. Put them on top of your dresser. It sounds familiar, doesn't it? It does.

Interesting. Jen, let me bring your attention to the corner of the dining room table, Jen's work area. Yeah, that's all I got right there. That's all you got? That's my corner. So I can recognize, I recognize a yellow legal pad. legal pad and then it just seems like uh crumpled up pieces of transparent sheet plastic and an empty uh model uh airplane box or what what's going on what's what's what else is on this table i think it's a lego box okay because i don't want to hold you guys there are a lot of toys around

and i can't hold you responsible for toys uh because your children you have a 20-month-old son You have a daughter who is what age, may I ask? Five Five years old, okay Yes So they're monsters, right? They're utterly uncontrollable Yeah, they make a mess Yeah, they make a huge mess

You have a ventriloquist dummy that I suspect probably comes to life at night And turns into our son And creates even more of a mess for you. So, you know, what I'm seeing around here is a huge amount of mess that is caused by children. But then Scott's work area, I see a lot of just papers and bills, and he's copped to just letting things lay around. Are you willing to make the same confession or do you say that that is not true about you? No, I do. But I blame him.

I say it's kind of contagious. Because when the stuff's all over the place, well, it's just easier to just leave the stuff all over the place. Right. As an expression of contempt for your husband's bad cleaning up habits. That will show him, right? If he wants to be a slob, I can double him and see how he feels. How many rooms are in your home? Seven?

How many bedrooms do you have? Oh, three. Three that we use as bedrooms. Okay. And do you have a full basement? Oh, well, it's kind of a raised ranch, a bi-level. So there's a downstairs, but that's like our den, TV room, and the laundry room's down there. Oh, okay.

And then there's another room that was half Scott's closet for a while, but is now the playroom. Uh-huh. And is that full from top to bottom with empty candy wrappers that you're saving? No. Are you guys hoarders? No, we're not hoarders. That's the thing We're just messing

Eilers Do you have too much stuff? Oh yeah You do, okay We do Scott, do you have too much stuff? Do you agree? We do

What would you say you have too much of? Toys? Well, we had First of all, give us all the toys We have too many toys Too much furniture Too many clothes Too many cups I don't think we have too many toys, too much furniture, too many clothes, too many cups. We filled an entire pod in preparation for showing our house,

and we really haven't missed anything in the entire pod in like three months. And your house, how does it feel now, now that you're getting ready to show it? It's much cleaner. It's much more spacious. But it's not as homey, I don't think. Oh, interesting. Jen likes the mess. I don't like the mess, but.

Whoa. Do you like the mess, Jen? No. It makes me crazy. I feel like I can't breathe when it's really messy. It's like everything's all around you. Right. So when it's really messy, you feel like the world is closing in on you and you have a catastrophic panic attack. When it is relatively clean, you miss it and you feel like it is not homey enough.

Are you capable of feeling happiness in either situation? I think so. I think I can feel happiness in both situations i just want scott to put his stuff away just put it away you take it out and but the thing is i don't like to complain because he's usually doing stuff with the kids like he'll bring out a whole bunch of books to read but then they go do something else and the books are still left all over the couch. Is that true, Scott? That is true. Okay. Or he brings up a bin from the toy room of like train tracks or Legos.

And they open them all up and they play and then they go and do something else. And it's all still out there. There's like a bin in that one picture. There's a bin of train tracks in the middle of the kitchen. All right. I think I know everything that I need to know in order to make my decision. I'm going to put on my gigantic Canadian eyebrows and go into chambers and turn myself into my own identical twin. And I will come out and property brothers you guys to success and happiness in your life. All right. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jennifer, how are you feeling about your chances? I mean, we know now that you

are capable of happiness. I feel pretty good about my chances. Is there some state that you think would be a good state for your home to be in? It's an ambiguous question. I'm going to take that as a no. Scott, how are you feeling about your chances? I think I got it. Wow, that's very confident of you. Yes. I didn't even get to tell him about how when I'm finished cleaning the kitchen, Jen will then put a dirty dish that she finished eating just on the perfectly clean counter when the dishwasher is empty and the sink is empty.

Because she doesn't like dishes in the sink, she he's already ruling scott see please rise as judge john hodgman re-enters the courtroom you know one thought i had while i was in chambers um i i just had a feeling scott is it the case that sometimes you clean up the kitchen and then jen does something that you don't like That does happen And what is it that happens exactly? She puts dirty plates On the perfectly clean counter With an empty sink and an empty dishwasher

I don't know if the dishwasher is empty or not And of course there's no way to find out You know, there is no way It's like a Schrodinger's cat box It could be impossible Until you open it It could be full or empty And so why bother? There is no way. It's like a Schrodinger's cat box. It could be impossible. Until you open it, it could be full or empty, and so why bother? Exactly.

Is that true, Jen? Because this is interesting. Scott, I really wish you had led with this rather than waste my time trying to force information on me about you're being a teacher. Why do you do that, Jen? Because that's Scott's area of cleaning, and that's what he's taking responsibility for. So I put the dish there. I don't like to put it in the sink.

I don't like the sink to be full. All right, look. Put it right on the counter. This, you are a very angry person, and I understand why you are. Who's angry, me? You are. Of course. Of course you are.

Yes. Because your husband is leaving piles of stuff all over the place, and he is improperly storing his pillows and his uh his uh dresser looks like something out of kevin spacey's apartment in the movie seven it is it is a portrait of insanity and i think that that is something that would drive me crazy too jen it would drive me to distraction. I hear you. And it is very frustrating. I speak from some small amount of experience when you are faced with someone who values basic sort of hygienic cleanliness over tidiness. Now, would it be fair to say that you value tidiness, and Scott, you value wiping down a counter? Do you know what I'm saying?

Overall tidiness versus hygienic cleaning. Would you agree? Yeah, that's the yes. Right. And now you are in a position, Jen, where you live with such frustration and resentment that you are acting out in strange ways by not taking even the most rational steps to keep your house clean in order to prove to Scott what a slob he is. You are ceding the kitchen to him and out of spite not putting your dishes away. Is that not true? That might be true. I know, it's hard to question to answer

when someone says, is that not true? Because you don't know whether to say yes or no. But I'm telling you, it is not not true. So it is not not true. So it's true. This is a psychological burden that is weighing on both of you, and it has to stop.

It absolutely has to stop. There are reasons for it, which I think are completely understandable, which is that you have small children, you have a possessed dummy, you have two dogs and a cat, which exist solely to put its body matter all over your home without your asking.

Those creatures, that's what they do. They're very lovable. I'm sure they're members of your family. But it is hard. It is hard to keep up, particularly if you have a staff of zero and absolute zero help. So you need to take extreme measures, both of you. That pod that you have filled up should be thrown over a cliff. Are you moving to a larger house?

Hopefully. Are you moving to a larger house in order to contain junk? Because you live in a three-bedroom house, and that's going to, you know, with a bunch of animals. You do need a little bit more room. But I don't want to hear that you're moving to another house because you've got too much furniture or you've got too much stuff. No, no, we're moving to a different location. A different location. Okay, great. This is your opportunity to pare down dramatically

what you have in your lives. And whether or not you throw that pod over, I do think that just looking at the clearance between dining room table And other furniture in the dining room Looking at the clearance Between coffee table and sofa In the living room The stacks are The piles are a problem But they're piled on tops of things

That are too close to one another I think you guys are just crowded in By your stuff And then I think you need are just crowded in by your stuff. And then I think you need to start paring down stuff to some degree as well. And then I got to tell you, Scott, you got to start picking up after yourself because you're making a mess

and you are not only making a mess, but you are modeling a mess for your children. But I think you will see, and here's why I always argue on the side of tidiness, even over cleanliness, although you need to have both. An untidy situation is psychologically unbearable for humans over a long period of time, in my opinion. And you see the evidence before you in your wife who is perversely and needlessly making more mess in a house that she wants to be clean only to spite you and your modest contributions to a clean kitchen.

So, Scott, I'm finding in favor of your wife. No! Yes! I'm finding in favor of your wife. No! Yes! Woo-hoo! Cleaning up the kitchen is valued work,

but you are essentially telling me that I should be praising you for brushing your teeth twice a day, which I presume you do. It's just something that has to happen. It's not like you get credits for that. But, Scott, I find in favor of Jen, you need to start picking up your stuff. You must get rid of hooks on the side of your dresser. That is an abomination. Hanging things belong in a closet. Folded things belong in a dresser. Laundry belongs in a hamper. Without pillows, you got to get those

things into those places before you get into bed. You need to get a king-size bed when you move into this other house. So you can put the pillows in the middle and not have to worry about putting them on the floor or into a hamper. And if you can't find a place on the bed and that's not comfortable for you, you've got to find a shelf or something to put those things on. Because you cannot put pillows in the hamper That is weird But I do recommend highly That you get a king-sized bed If you have two kids and a dummy

That's wandering around the house in the middle of the night You are going to need extra space in that bed And you have 47 cats or whatever it is too And so Do you understand what I'm saying to you scott you gotta i gotta neaten up your act neaten up your act i will try okay and that stuff about vacuuming and everything else that's got to be uh i'm not suggesting that cleanliness of that kind is not important or less important than tidiness it It is important, but it's so important that it has to be automatic.

In other words, you do not vacuum the house in order to make yourself seem normal to other humans who might visit. You have to do it on a regular routine in order to just get it done. And Jen, you have to share in that because you guys have to do this together. Yes, I agree. And I would say that organizational projects, Jen, you have to share in that because you guys have to do this together. Yes, I agree.

And I would say that organizational projects, Jen? Yes. You know, what you don't need are projects. What you need is just to clean the stuff up. So do not waste your time coming up with schemes for getting things organized. Get rid of things. Put things away. If there isn't a place for the thing that you have to put away, then you don't need that thing or you shouldn't have it.

This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Scott, you were brash when I spoke with you before the ruling. How are you feeling now? Humbled. Do you think you can do this? I will try.

Yes, I can do this. Jennifer, do you believe Scott? I think he'll try. I don't believe him at all. This goes back to my main argument was, I just think that's just how he's built. It's just kind of genetic this is gonna be a piler jennifer scott thanks for joining us on the judge john hodgman podcast

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Man, Judge Hodgman, I can't help but look around here and notice all the copper I could be tearing out of the walls. There you go. You're welcome to the copper. Just please don't touch my collection of discarded Reese's peanut butter cup wrappers. I'm not into the wrappers. The wrappers are garbage, obviously. I'm just talking about the little brown paper cups. I just need those for tiny coasters. I mean, I feel like we could compromise by just clearing the docket.

Fair enough. Which of the 7,000 dockets that I have piled in my bathtub would you like to clear? Here's something from Ben. My intention is not to buzz market, and I hope you'll hear me out. That's how he opens this thing. My intention is not to buzz market, so I hope you'll hear me out. Listen, I'm not a con artist and this isn't a scam. Unfortunately, I am in London and someone stole my wallet.

My friend and co-worker John and I entered into a friendly $25 bet. My friend and co-worker Reese's Peanut Butter Cups and I. Over whether a grill series on the Weber line is called Performer or Perform-a. For context, I'm getting married on July 14th, and this grill is a joint present from my loving family. John bet the money, saying the grill was known as the Perform-a. Knowing that it is currently, and I would argue accurately labeled Performer, on the company's website, I took the bet. However, John then found evidence to prove that the grill was once called the Performa.

He would argue that he is, quote, not wrong, unquote, as it has been labeled Performa in the past. I argue that a product's current name is the official name of the product. Who is right? Who is wrong? I have to say the bet is off. No one owes anybody any money. Ben is correct, but John is also correct in that he is not wrong. If indeed this thing was called the Performa, which would be strange because I did not know Weber Grills actually made Macintosh computers in the early 90s. But if it were called Performa,

then he has every reasonable reason to believe that he is correct. And certainly the fact that he is not kept up with the rebranding of the Weber Grill label should not be held against him. So no harm, no foul either way. Enjoy your summertime cookout on 20-year-old Macintosh computers. Oh, I'm going to enjoy my summer cookout on my Weber 2 Plus. Is that okay? Sure. It's a classic. Absolutely. I want to take this opportunity to do some buzz marketing for one of our Maxim maximumfund.org podcast colleagues.

Oh, please. That is throwing shade. This is one of my favorite shows on the Max Fund Network. I think it's one that Judge John Hodgman fans should give a listen to, and I think they would enjoy. It is the hilarious Aaron Gibson and Brian Safi, formerly of Current TV's InfoNation. I think it was called InfoNation. Something or other. It was called InfoNatia. Infomania. That's what it was called.

Infomania. Anyway. Infomanier is what it was called. It was well known as the funny thing on Current. And they basically go through the news of the week as it pertains to matters of, broadly speaking, feminism and LGBT rights. And then they just make a bunch of stupid and often very vulgar jokes about them. But with a good heart. And it is hilarious whether or not you care about the issues.

It's not always entirely clear whether they do. It is one of the funniest things you'll ever listen to, and I really hope listeners to Judge Sean Hodgman will give it a try. I absolutely and utterly concur. And I would like to give a shout out to Braggy Seth. You may recall Braggy Seth

from our dispute between two performers in the show War Horse, one of whom stole some pants from the other one. Braggy Seth was the one who stole the pants. I ran into him. He introduced himself to me in New York City the other day and made a big point of saying

that he absolutely had returned the pants and he feels much better now that he has followed my wisdom, as you all will. If you only listen to me and do what I tell you to do, this society will thrive again. I promise you that, Americans. But thanks for saying

hi, Braggy Seth, and thanks for not being weird. If you want to submit a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHo JJHO MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho JJHO and you will therein find a

handy dandy form that will help you submit all of the parts of your case and some outlining about how to frame your case and who to talk to and all kinds of cool stuff. It is fun, it is easy and we're always looking for your cases so for you, for your mom, for your coworkers,

send them to MaximumFun.org slash JJHo so they can submit a case there. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. I concur. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate.

The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum

at forum.maximumfund.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online and next time right herecom slash Judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.