Judge John Hodgman - Crust-ody Hearing

Episode Date: November 2, 2022

Lilarose brings the case against her brother, Kumar. They disagree on the best method of making a pie crust. Lilarose believes it’s important to keep the ingredients in the freezer. But Kumar says that the fridge is just fine. Who’s right? Who’s wrong?Plus expert testimony from J. Kenji López-Alt! Find his work at Serious Eats and on YouTube. More, including his books, at www.kenjilopezalt.com.Thank you to Twitter User @MeaghanLamothe for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow us on Twitter for naming opportunities: @JesseThorn & @Hodgman. Or keep track using the Twitter hashtag #JJHoCaseNames.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, crustity hearing. Lila Rose brings the case against her brother Kumar. They disagree on the best method of making pie crust. Lila Rose believes it's important to keep the ingredients in the freezer. Kumar says the fridge is just fine. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Oh, you pie people. You make me laugh. What does pie have going for it?

Pie filling? Even the name filling makes it seem like it's not that important to the pie. If you're eating pie filling out of a can, there has been a disaster. You're in an underground bunker and you are running out of food. What you're saying is, okay, here's what's going to happen. First, I'm going to eat that pie filling. Then I'm going to eat you. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Lila Rose and Kumar, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he prefers home-run brand hand pies? I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. What is a... Hang on. Lila Rosenkumar, remain standing. What is a home run brand? I don't... You know what a home run pie is?

It's the kind that comes in a little sleeve of wax paper at the grocery store. Sounds good. Or in a little pile at the liquor store, the corner store. Is it a sweet pie or a savory pie? It's a sweet pie. What is this, Australia? I'd like a little pork pie. I'd like a little pork pie in a wax sleeve.

I actually would enjoy that very much. Wouldn't that be good? I wish I could have a pork pie in a wax sleeve for dinner. But in the meantime, we've got justice to adjudicate. Lila Rose and Kumar, you may be seated for immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture I referenced when I entered the courtroom? Lila Rose, let's start with you. What's your guess? I would like to guess Fallout 3, The Fallening. I assume is the name of that video game I've heard about.

Fallout 3, The Fallening. Okay. She assumes that's the name of the video game she's heard about. Yeah. I'm going to make the same assumption because I have heard about that game, but I've not played it. Kumar, what is your guess? I'm going to guess the yet-to-be-made prequel to the Jurassic Park series where it's all on a different planet. The yet-to-be-made prequel. Are you trying to launch an IP on my podcast?

This is what it's all been for. This is my moment. One time, a long time ago, I was interviewing Ron Moore, who is the co-creator of the reboot of Battlestar Galactica. And he was talking about when he was in high school, he used to write stories, alternate timeline stories in which dinosaurs fought in World War II. And I said, why are you not writing that to make a million dollars right now? And he said, I don't know. So there we go. Launched two IPs, two new dinosaur IPs, ET dinosaurs and History Channel dinosaurs. channel dinosaurs but in the meantime all guesses are wrong i thought you had me there for a minute there lila rose because you were like you said fall out and i was like oh she got me she got me because that is a very famous

comedy routine by someone who sounds like fall out but is actually his name is actually pronounced paul f tompkins out fall f tompkins famous cake versus pie routine on his album freak wharf one of the great paul f tompkins albums i say one of the great because they're all great one of the funniest guys there is one of the funniest guys and you know i whose comedy i first heard not even comedy but whose voice i first heard on the show that preceded Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, Sound of Young America, which you used to broadcast from another planet with your dinosaur pals. It's true. Yeah. Back in ancient history times. Not the mama, they would say. Gotta love the baby. All right, everybody. listen, we're going to hear this case. Everyone remembers the TV show Dinosaurs. It's very heartening. Lila Rose Kumar, which of you comes to this court seeking justice? I do.

And what is the justice you seek, Lila Rose? incident referred to as the pie crust incident where we tried to make a pie together, I think for Thanksgiving. And Kumar and I both like to pretend that we're very laid back and everyone can do whatever they want. But we actually have strong opinions about how everything should be done. So that can lead to some conflict. And for some reason, I really doubled down on everything having to be frozen. And I froze the pie crust overnight. Let me just interrupt you, Lila Rose. Let's go back for a second let's talk about the instant

yes when was it what kind of pie i think it was three years ago ish i mean the the event what what was the was it a holiday oh i think it was a pie making event. Yeah. It was Thanksgiving with our family. All right. In Ohio. Yeah. In Ohio. All right. And it was a pumpkin pie.

Right. Which our family traditionally makes out of butternut squash. So it was really a butternut squash pie. Already you're messing with my head. Yeah, exactly. You never make pumpkin pie with pumpkin. That's gross. And for a crust, we use anila wafers. Exactly. Frozen.

For a crust, we use beef jerky. And you wanted to freeze all of it. We're talking about the crust specifically. The ingredients of the crust are flour, salt, water, butter. Anything else? That's all. Or another shortening. It doesn't have to be butter.

So tell me about freezing. Freezing at all. Or another shortening. Doesn't have to be butter. So tell me about freezing. Freezing at all. So in general, I like to freeze all the ingredients ahead of time. So that's the, I put the water in the freezer. I put the flour in the freezer, the butter in the freezer, and the bowl in the freezer. Whoa. How long are you keeping? You're talking about turning the water into ice. I agree. That's usually what happens.

The water. I don't know what a freezer is like in Ohio, but in New England, we put something in the freezer if we wanted to freeze. I agree. The water you have to do only like 15 minutes before you want to use it. The rest of it you can do whenever. So you're talking about ice cold flour. Yep. Because people like to keep that butter cold. We'll talk about that in a minute.

But you want to do ice cold flour, ice cold everything. Yep. Freezing the flour overnight. Okay. And the bowl. Don't forget the bowl. The bowl's really important. God or whatever, forfend I forget the bowl.

You're right. I apologize. So where did you pick up this quick tip? So where did you pick up this quick tip? Well, I blame my mom, as we do for all things, for making me crazy about pie crust. But then she betrayed me because as I got older, she abandoned all of this and now just makes it the lazy bad way. So I'm alone. Wow. May I presume that Kumar makes it the lazy bad way? Yeah, I guess that's what I'm saying. Kumar, tell me about how you make pie crust. Excellent. So same ingredients. We both grew up in the same household watching the

same person make pie. So for me, I don't... This would be your pie nanny? Exactly. Absolutely. A couple. We ran through them pretty quickly. Your mother. So I'm on board with putting the water in the freezer for about 15 minutes. The butter is usually already in the refrigerator, so it's fine. But nothing else needs to be cool or even frozen. I mean, frozen is ridiculous. And so I add the ingredients and make the crust pretty quickly. And then if I need more time to make the filling, I'll then put the made dough, the soon-to-be crust, in a metal bowl and then put that in the fridge if I don't have time to roll it out and put it into the pan and put it in the fridge. But I've never in my long,

my many years of pie making, had to freeze butter or flour, let alone the entire crust. So, Lila Rose, after you have rolled out the crust, do you refrigerate it? Yeah. Or freeze it? It depends how long I have. The error I made during the incident was that I doubled down so hard on my way that I froze the dough as balls completely solid. And then when we needed to make pie the next day, while Kumar was angry at me,

had to break it into tiny pieces and cram it into a pie dish in an approximated shape of a pie. But that was just because of my stubbornness. Generally, I would either refrigerate it as a ball or freeze it if I had a short time as a pie crust, but not all night. But you could as a pie crust, you could freeze it. The problem was I froze it as a ball. So Kumar, you said in all the many times you've made pies, you make a lot of pies, Kumar? Oh, yeah. Who makes more pies? I definitely make more pies. You make more pies. I love it. What's your favorite kind of pie to make? This one can be my favorite to make. I do also like making a caramel apple pie.

Your mock pumpkin pie with butternut squash? All right. Exactly. Just for the listener who has not made a pie crust before or even observed one being made because they didn't grow up with a pie nanny in Ohio. Tell me how you, Kumar, make a pie crust. Do it step by step like you're teaching a class. Absolutely. So the first thing I do is I'll go get a measuring cup for, you know, put a cup or a cup and a half, usually a little more than I actually need. I'll fill it up. I'll stick it in the freezer.

I'll then get my flour. What are you filling it up with? Let's go back again, Kumar. I'm filling it up with water. You're filling it up with? Let's go back again, Kumar. I'm filling it up with water. You're filling it up with water. Yes, exactly. Cup and a half of water getting real cold in the freezer. Absolutely.

And that's the timer that started to tick. So while the water is getting cool, I then get my bowl, measure out my flour. It depends if I'm going to have a top crust or I'm making multiple pies, but usually a minimum of about a cup and a half to two and a half cups of flour. And then I get out the butter. Let's keep it very simple. Let's just make the recipe for an un-topped basic mock pumpkin pie with a filling made out of butternut squash and a crust made out of butterflies or whatever. Just give me the basic crust.

Two cups of flour, almost two full sticks of butter, about a stick and three quarters, as much salt as you want, but really probably less than a teaspoon and a half cup to a cup of water. And so once I have the butter out, I toss it in the flour sort of chunk by chunk and use a pastry knife to chop it into fine pieces so I'm not warming it with my fingers. And once it's sliced up into probably, you know, like quarter inch size pieces, then I'll get the water. I'll add the water along with the salt and I'll add the water slowly, mixing it preferably with a spoon. And then once it feels like it's getting about the

right consistency, I'll put my hands on it and add any additional water or flour to get it to the right consistency, which is really nice and smooth. And then I can roll it out, form it in the pie pan, crimp the edges, and then put it in the fridge while I do the filling. Right. And when you say chunk by chunk vis-a-vis the butter, what chunks of butter are you using? Usually I'll do, well, probably like with the pastry knife I have, you can't really do more than probably three tablespoons at a time. Otherwise, it just gets unwieldy.

Some people chop up the butter before they start mixing it into the flour to make sort of flour-coated pea-sized nuggets of butter, like pellet ice of butter in your flour. I've put butter in my pellet ice machine before. It was fantastic. Yeah, that's how you get it frozen. That would be an incredible hack if that worked. I prefer to let the pastry knife do all the work. If you're slicing it, then you have to be holding the butter as well, and that just heats it up. Heat is the issue here. So for people who have not made pie crust from scratch before, Kumar, explain why you don't want to be touching this thing or hotten it up with your hands.

Right. So if you, if, if you let butter, you know, even get to room temperature, it becomes really mushy. It no longer holds form. Um, and so your crust is going to have a really hard time having any type of structure to it. So even sometimes if you form your crust and then you leave it out for too long, it'll start to melt almost and lose its shape. Right. What happens is if I, if I, and you will correct me if I'm wrong, because you're Kumar of the many pies. What you want is you're trying to create little pockets of cold butter within the dough and you want it to be cold when it goes into the oven so that as it cooks, those pockets of butter melt and leave flaky bits of vacuum, little holes throughout the dough,

little flaky, light, fluffy cavities where the butter once was. You don't want the butter incorporating too much into the dough, getting too warm and mixing in because then you lose that light flakiness. Yes or no, Kumar? Am I right or am I wrong? You're right. Good. I'm glad.

I've never made a pie crust, but I've watched a lot of videos. Scary to me. I love to cook, but I don't like to bake because it involves so much precision. So I can understand, Lila Rose, why since keeping the butter cold throughout the process, from initial mixing in to then putting it back in the fridge to reset before you bake with it, I can see why you might go down the road to let's put everything in the freezer, including myself and my hands. Exactly. I was trying to think about some magic gloves that could keep your hands really cold while you worked with the dough so you wouldn't have any heat introduced. You're looking for a perfect system, and I appreciate that. Exactly.

It seemed like you were suggesting that your mom was the one to pioneer the flour in the freezer technique. I think she just pioneered the terror of the melting. I don't know what her actual methods were, but she just imparted on me that you had to be terrified while making pie crust. She simply imparted the terror. Yeah. Here's the thing, though. I don't want to roll this podcast back, and we don't have a stenographer, but I seem to distinctly remember that you said that your mom used to do the frozen method,

but then she's lapsed, and that's part of the dispute. Did I misunderstand? No, you're correct. She's gone back, and she now just makes it willy nilly with no concern for melting. And how are her pie crusts? Terrible. They're fine. They're fine.

I don't need everyone to make pie crusts like this, but I need them to agree that my crusts are the best. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world, and you get to hear the sound.

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Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made-in, made-in. The Rohan duck. Made-in, made-in. Riders of Rohan. Duck!

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starting with you, Lila Rose, you sent in evidence of a mock pumpkin pie. And I'm looking at this photo here. All these photos will be available, of course, on the show page at MaximumFun.org, as well as our Instagram at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. There's a top-down bird's eye view of this mock pumpkin pie on a nice, well-oiled butcher block counter. This is the photo that you submitted, Lila Rose? Yep. This is your crust? Yep.

And what am I looking for here? It's lovely looking. I mean, I would be tricked. I would think that was a pumpkin pie from really close up. Yeah, that's the trick. What else should I be looking for? I see you have a photo here of the bottom of the crust. What are you showcasing here? What evidence are you presenting to this court? Yeah, Kumar, you can tell he's a noob because he didn't even say lamination, which I'm like, 95% sure has to do with this. And when I watch that British baking show, which I won't buzz market, they always scrape the bottom of a pie with a fork to prove how good it is.

So I don't really know the ins and outs, but I knew it was important to send a picture of that. And I thought about sending a video of a fork scraping it, but just trust me, it was perfect. It's got a well-laminated bottom crust. Is that what you're saying? Exactly. And that means if you scrape it with a fork,

if you're Paul Hollywood and you're scraping something with a fork, flakes are going to come up? Exactly. All right. So you're telling me this is a good flaky crust. That's a good crust. Yeah. It looks very attractive.

I would love to see that stuff with pork. For sure. I'd eat it right up. I would like to point out, Lila Rose, that on this top-down image of the pie, it looks great. But if you imagine the pie as a clock face, at 3 o'clock, there's a lump of filling that looks a little bit like a slug got dropped in there yeah and and you know i'm just saying that i'm just pointing out this is my observations it looks beautiful the crust looks beautiful but then at about seven o'clock something happened with your crimping and it's it's the the the circumference of the pie is deteriorated there.

Do you want to speak to that for a moment? Yeah. The problem is that I'm not actually great at being type A. Does seem like you're giving it a really good try, though. Thank you so much. You're welcome. It was kind of funny when I made that pie. So it was kind of funny when I made that pie, my almost two-year-old fell right as I was at a pivotal moment for the crust and bust her lip and started bleeding. And I did try to talk her out of needing me so I could finish up the pie crust.

Go take care of yourself. Your mother is crimping right now. So I'm going to blame that all on her if that's accepted by the court. I'll allow it. Blaming of children is allowed on this podcast for sure. Perfect. Kumar, you submitted some evidence as well. A couple of photos of your many pies first is an empty pie crust using mom's recipe and uh and then a couple of finished pies these pies look pretty good what do you want to tell me about your pies what do you want to tell me about your mom's recipe and why lila rose is wrong yeah so a couple things one i don't acknowledge the monarchy so any

british standards for cooking and baking, I renounce fully. I'll allow it. Yeah, I don't know those fancy terms, but how I evaluate the sort of quality of the pie, the pie crust in particular, is an ancient technique in our family where you cut a slice of pie and then you remove the filling slowly while keeping the crust intact. And so at the end, you have a fillingless crust that you can then eat by itself or with some ice cream or, you know, whatever else you'd like to eat it with. And I think that the integrity shown in that, uh, that stage of, um, pie eating is really the marker of success. I'm sorry.

You taught me this. Why are you laughing? I just completely forgot we did that as children. Tell me that you're removing the filling but leaving the crust yeah so if you i don't know what if you're holding the the pie on a the piece of pie on a plate instead of like using your fork to break the crust you bring your fork down and slide forward to pull off the filling oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's standard right you're eating you're just eating the filling like alone like you're in an underground bunker after an apocalypse just

like paul f tompkins got it okay so you're talking about the the integrity of the crust right it holds up is what you're saying that That's a good crust. Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't understand what the dispute is here. You can make your own pies the way you want to make them. Why is what each of you doing so wrong that you have to come to this court for me to rule? Lila Rose, you wanted to say something? Well, yes. What I would like is that Kumar admit that he doesn't have to go through all the work that I go through, but I just want him to admit that the way I do it is worth it, that the pie crust at the end is worth all the shenanigans at the beginning. So what you're saying is that you don't need him

to not do it the bad way. You just need him to acknowledge that he's bad. Yeah. That's reasonable. And how do you respond to that, Kumar? Yes. Thank you for the opportunity to offer a rebuttal. I think it's ridiculous. Because first of all, we haven't talked at all about the amount of stress and pain pain that it, that Lila Rose goes through

while doing this. I mean, watching her, I think maybe she also submitted a video of her using a cheese grater to grate, I think it was frozen butter, but that's painful enough for me to watch. I mean, there's no need to do that. And the other part that's really painful is in the sort of precipitating incident where she froze everything, I had to then watch her go to battle with these frozen balls of dough and create a mangled crust. And we didn't even really need to use the freezer in the first place. And so what I'm taking issue with isn't necessarily the end product, but it's the

many unnecessary steps that lead to terrible incidents like this initial one that seem totally unnecessary. We don't need to subject ourselves to that. You're saying that Lila Rose worked really, really hard to keep this dough so cold that she accidentally froze it in spheres and then had to ruin all of her hard work by smashing it into a pie plate when it was in a frozen state and thus ruined Thanksgiving. Exactly. Good.

A holiday, by the way, which can stand to be ruined as far as I'm concerned, but we'll leave that for another time. You mentioned shenanigans and Lila Rose, you mentioned, you know, type A personalities and the striving for a kind of super perfection, particularly in the complicated chemistry that is baking. You know, we have a friend of this court who is, I know that you reject the royalty. I know that you reject the monarchy, Kumar, but I would say the king of culinary shenanigans. His name is J. Kenji Lopez-Alt of Serious Eats. And we consulted him on two points. One, just some basic pie crust making tips. And two, ultimately, I think the final judgment.

How many ingredients, if any, should be frozen when you are making pie crust? We'll save that for when I read my verdict. That's called a tease. But now, Jennifer Marmer, our producer out there on the West Coast, do you want to share the first round of tips from our king of culinary shenanigans, Mr. J. Kenji Lopez-Alt? Hey there, this is Kenji. So yes, you do want to keep all of your pie crust ingredients cold. Even after you make the pie dough, you want to keep that nice and cold after you roll it out and put it into the pie plate before you put it into the oven so the idea is that if it gets too warm the butter and fat in it starts to melt and then what happens is the pie

crust can slump before it has a chance to set in shape so if you don't chill your pie crust properly it won't be as flaky it won't hold its shape as well top three tips for making better pie crust the The first one, keep everything ice cold. I use a mix of butter and lard or butter and shortening. You can, of course, use an all-butter crust. What I like to do if I'm doing an all-butter crust, there's a recipe on Serious Eats where you essentially blend the butter with part of the flour first, so you make sort of a flour-butter paste, and then you cut the rest of the flour into that, and that makes the pie dough really easy to roll out even when it's nice and cold from the

fridge. Another tip from Pie Crusts, if you're using water in it, keep it ice cold again. So what I do is I get a cup of ice water, I put ice cubes into my measuring cup and then I put a little strainer in there like a bar strainer or anything that will fit inside your measuring cup that'll keep the ice out and dip it down in there and then scoop out with a tablespoon measure from there so you get ice cold water to use in your pie dough. Final tip, if you want to make your pie dough really easy to roll out and also extremely tender, use, instead of using all water, use half water, half vodka. The reason is because gluten, which is what can make your pie dough tough after it's baked, gluten doesn't form in alcohol. So by

cutting the water with part vodka, which is, part vodka, which has some alcohol content to it, you're able to hydrate your dough very well so that it's easy to roll out, kind of like Play-Doh. But when it bakes off, all that alcohol evaporates out and you end up with a really tender, flaky pie crust. I hope this helps. Bye-bye. Half water, half vodka. Judge Hodgman is trying to figure out if he could do it with gin. I am trying. Actually, now I'm curious. Could you do it with gin? Our Malort pie crust is on the way.

I think a little Malort would add a little something extra to your mock pumpkin pie. This pumpkin pie is unusually botanical. I think it might be good for a pumpkin spice themed food. Add a little bit of juniper in there. But let me ask you this, Kumar. You talked about the stress that Lila Rose experiences while she's making these sort

of hyper attentive special shenanigans style pie crusts, you think she would relax a little bit more with the, with a little vodka in the recipe? My first question is why only half vodka, but we can get to that later. Okay. Yes. I think like,

I think having a little bit more structure and just following the recipe rather than, because a lot of the times this will happen because of time or we're trying to do something else. And so she's trying to speed things up by freezing something, which then adds, you know, four hours to the process on the back end. And so I think just following the really simple recipe actually simplifies it and would be less stressful. And so it's hard for me to watch it get really complicated when I think our mother's approach was fine and turns out really good pie crusts. I want to speak to that for one second because Lila Rose did not send in a video of herself using a cheese grater to grate frozen butter into little

butter nuggets, an interesting technique I have to say. Uh, but there was submitted your mother's pumpkin pie recipe, which once again says cook squash just right from the top. It's contrarian. Uh, and, and it does not say anything about using you know you know shredding frozen butter or keeping flour in the freezer it basically says use cold water keep things cold uh does not have the

the strict instructions that lila rose has interpreted for herself what does this recipe mean to both of you? This, this recipe from your mom. Can we share this by the way? Do you think that's okay? Can we share this recipe online? Yeah, absolutely. You okay with that too, Lila Rose? Or would you like us to, would you like rather have me post a video of me burning this recipe and saying freezer forever? I mean, I would definitely prefer that, but either way is fine. Well, let's start with you then. What does this recipe mean to you?

I do have really fond memories of working with my mom. Despite the terror, it was still fun. And I like that we have a family tradition of making this quote unquote pumpkin pie. And I actually am not normally the one of us who's very type A. I'm normally a disaster on most fronts. So I like to try to show Kumar, who is on top of all areas of his life at all times, that I can do one type A neurotic thing really well. Do I fail at that and leave my child bleeding and ruin Thanksgiving? Yes, but it's an. And someday I'm going to get it perfect. And I'm going to try this vodka thing, which I have heard about.

And I'm excited that Kenji says it's going to make it easier to roll out, which is a stressful part of the process. Kumar, how do you feel when you hear Lila Rose say that she just wants to show you that she can do one type A neurotic thing as well as you? I mean, I don't know. That's terrifying. I like cooking. I like cooking together.

I like, like Lila Rose said, we spend a lot of time around food as kids with our mom in particular. we spend a lot of time around food as kids with our mom in particular. And so what I'm trying to do is find a way for us to be in the kitchen together and have it still feel good. And so I think part of that is her not maybe necessarily feeling like she needs to be, you know, whatever the sort of type A ideology that doesn't like, you know, we can be different in that we have different strengths and what we're doing. But I think we have a hard time actually finding out how to weigh those when it comes to which approach to use. Is Lila Rose stressed out in other ways in the kitchen or in her life that you find distracting or unfun? To me? Or to her? Well, you're saying that you want to be able to cook with your sister you both obviously you both live in dayton ohio correct uh yellow springs near dayton oh okay

you live close enough to have a chance to cook together with some frequency yes or no yes and you're saying you want it to be fun which which makes me feel like it's not fun. It's not when you are watching someone going to battle against frozen balls of dough. It ends up being really stressful. I perceive she's very stressed out about it, and that makes me feel stressed out. Lila Rose says that your mom, uh, didn't teach her a technique so much as instilling her a terror of warm pie crust, pie dough. Why didn't, why don't you feel the terror? I think as with many things as like the younger sibling, a lot of the direct, uh, effects of the parenting fell to her.

And I just got the sort of like, I'm not sure what you call it, but like the secondary effects. The leftovers. Exactly. The leftover parenting. Exactly. She got the filling. You got the empty crust with the baby boy vanilla ice cream on top for the good baby boy. Exactly. And so I think I also just deal with

like some of the comments maybe my mom made about making pie to me seemed like suggestions or not necessarily like rules, but here's how I do it. Focus on what I do rather than what I say. Lila Rose, when Kumar criticizes your pie crust technique, how does that make you feel? Is there anything in your life similar to this? I would say we have a reverse of the normal relationship where the first child is all organized and successful. Kumar has come after me in all areas of my life and just hit it out of the park and i just kind of flop along uh he's currently saving my family on a day-to-day basis by helping my husband and i with our young kids he's a like the most excellent human being on earth.

And you just want to beat him in one thing. She just wants to demonstrate that he's bad. Well, bad and lazy. Lila Rose, I apologize on both my and our bailiff's behalf. Please finish what you were going to say. I just want him to recognize that I am competent in one area occasionally. This is really bleak. Let me ask you this, Kumar, and do not let yourself be swayed by sentiment. I want the truth. I want the hard truth about the crust. Obviously, that Thanksgiving got ruined, totally irrevocably ruined by those frozen balls of dough. But Lila Rose has made pie dough without accidentally freezing the balls of dough. Correct?

Correct. On other occasions, right? Yep. And when she makes the dough with the frozen flour and all the other super cold ingredients and the dough comes out and she's, and it's, you know, she's scratching the bottom of it to show you how well it laminates or whatever. What's your honest opinion about that pie crust scale of one to 10? She moving on to the competition or what? Yeah, absolutely. No, it's definitely in terms of taste and yeah, like a nine, 10. It's great. Nine, 10. And what's yours, honestly?

Mine, like a 15. Wow. Wow. No, I think they're really comparable in terms of the actual taste. They're different. They definitely taste different. How are they different? I would say mine has the more standard sort of characteristic of the flakiness. So the butter more evenly distributed throughout, whereas Lila's tends to have a bit more chunky. So the butter kind of like sometimes the flour will sort of like clump up. And so it's not as neat around the edges.

It doesn't look as smooth. Okay. Lila Rose, how do you respond to this slander? I mean, I'm mostly sobbing. All right. Yeah, I think because I try to roll out the dough so quickly and I try to use so little water, like you're only supposed to use three

tablespoons of water. So you have to use more than that, but you have to feel guilty about every extra tablespoon you use. So Kumar over here with his cup and a half of cold water is not allowed, but you have to feel guilty. You have to feel guilty for every extra tablespoon. And so because I'm trying to roll it out dry. And so. Guilty with every extra drop of water. Wow. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my chambers. Consider my verdict. I'll be back in a moment with my ruling. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom. Kumar, how are you feeling about your chances today? I'm feeling pretty good. I think I made some good distinctions. Like, it's good pie crust, but it's just not the way it should be. Are you bad?

Am I bad? No, I'm perfect, as she said, obviously. Lila Rose, how are you feeling about your chances? Oh, so bad. I feel like I did not make my case well. I have had my case made for seeming like a neurotic, crazy but uh kumar is probably right i could take a a little relaxation on my pie crust can i ask you a serious question for a while i had one of these ice cream machines where you freeze the canister who's got canister room in their freezer

right like when i hear people say well put the bowl in the freezer i'm putting an entire bowl in my freezer what kind of freezer do you have can we tell can i tell you a funny story about this i left a tupperware of flour but i couldn't find a lid so it's a Tupperware of flour in the freezer. And my husband was at home alone with the kids. And he opened the freezer. The flour fell out, spread everywhere. And he went and got his shop back. But he didn't remember he hadn't put the filter on it. So when he sucked up the flour, it emulsified it over the entire kitchen. So I don't really have

room in my freezer. And my husband would probably be thrilled if I didn't put all the ingredients in there because they are very precarious. Well, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll find what Judge John Hodgman's judgment is and hear a bit more from J. Kenji Lopez-Alt. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory.

The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. Oh, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself.

A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Judge Hodgman, we're taking a break from the case. Let's talk about what we have going on. Look, you know that Judge John Hodgman listener, Zach, got me involved in this group of Somervillians. Those are people who live in Somerville, Massachusetts, in New England, to do some phone banking way back in the year 2020. And I've been zooming up with them again to make some phone banking calls this midterm cycle into New Hampshire in support of Senator Maggie Hassan, who is running for reelection. She only won by a thousand votes or so in 2018. And she's up against, I have a political opinion, a real creep in the GOP candidate, Don Bolduc. But the point is,

I called someone yesterday, joined the Democrats, was calling around. I reached Emily in Salem, New Hampshire, and had the most incredible conversation of my life ever. A couple of cycles of doing this, you know, most of the time people don't pick up. Or if they do, they're already on your side. But here was a person genuinely, it was like, her number one issue was protecting the right to, a woman's right to choose her reproductive health care. And she had never heard of Maggie Hassan.

She didn't even know that her own Democratic senator, pro-choice Democratic senator, was up for re-election against an anti-choice GOP guy. And we had a long conversation. We didn't agree on everything. We had a great conversation just talking and shooting the breeze and venting the feces about politics these days. And at the end of the conversation, we were pals. It was the most powerful conversation I've had about politics with a stranger in forever, I would say, which is why I'm encouraging you to phone bank. Because for the most part, you're never going to speak to anybody. You're just going to call and people won't even pick up. You don't pick up your phone, right? People won't pick up. Or you'll leave a message or you'll talk to someone who's already on your side. But every now and then you have this conversation that you just, it's so uplifting and interesting. They say that phone banking increases voter turnout by one to 3% and Maggie Hassan won by less than 1% last time. And it's just through doing these calls.

through doing these calls. And so I'm inviting you to join me this Sunday. It's the Sunday before election day to call if you want to join me on the Zoom and call into New Hampshire and get out the vote for Maggie Hassan and the other Democratic candidates in New Hampshire. You can do it by simply going to bit.ly phoning with John, phoning with John, one word, all small letters. And if you're not interested in supporting Maggie Hassan in New Hampshire because you've got some other candidate you want to devote your time to, fantastic. Go to mobilize.us and find a candidate or a race that you're interested in. Find a way to help that you can manage. You know, I used to think that my vote was enough, but it's really not. If we're going to protect our rights, our rights to privacy,

our rights to reproductive health care, our right to vote, we have to get out the vote. We can win these races. We can stem the tide. If you want to join me and Natalie Baseman in calling New Hampshire this Sunday, please do it. Bit.ly slash phoning with John. You don't know who Natalie Baseman is? Find out. Register now at bit.ly phoning with John to join me and Natalie Baseman this Sunday at 4 p.m. Eastern from your computer. And please, if not that, consider going to mobilize.us and sign up to Canvas, TextBank, PhoneBank, any kind of volunteering you can do. You will feel good. You will feel good. Does it make you nervous? Does it make me nervous to call? Yeah. You know what my trick is? I tell the person who picks up, I say, I'm very

nervous. I'm very nervous about doing this. I don't want to bother you. And then all of a sudden, they're like, oh, well, let's talk about it. It's terrific, and it's important. And you'll feel better no matter what happens on November 9th, the day after election day, if you know that you gave a little bit more than your vote. Please, mobilize.us and bit.ly slash phoning with John. Let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom and presents his verdict. Before I render my verdict, I want to open the floor once again to friend of the court, J. Kenji Lopez, alt of Serious Eats and his own incredibly popular, appropriately so, YouTube channel.

Because we had asked him specifically to comment on freezing the butter. This is before I knew anything about freezing the flour and the salt and the water and the bowl. Simply on the topic of freezing the butter, I thought that Kenji could probably offer a final word. So let's hear what he had to say, and then I'll tell you my verdict. Jennifer Marmer, if you are ready with that clip, please. So to answer the question, do you need to freeze your butter before incorporating it to pie crust? You don't need to freeze it, but you do want it as cold as possible so that it doesn't melt and smear into the dough while you're making it. So putting it in the freezer, it makes it difficult to incorporate.

One trick that I like to do is put the butter, a whole stick into the freezer and then grate that butter on a box grater or if you have a food processor with a grating disc, run the whole stick of butter, frozen butter through there and then toss that with your flour. That's a really great way to incorporate butter into pie crusts or scones or biscuits or anything where you're trying to get that really nice, light, flaky, buttery flavor. So to answer your question, you do not have to put butter in the freezer. If you do, there's special ways that you're going to have to treat it. But no matter what, you do want to keep it as cold as possible.

Well, well, well, well, Kumar. Well, well, well, Kumar. Here you were hoping to ridicule your older sister for shredding frozen butter with a box grater. Meanwhile, J. Kenji Lopez-Alt waltzes in from the food labs at Serious Eats saying she did the right thing. I hope that makes you feel pretty good, Lila Rose. And I hope that makes you feel pretty good, Lila Rose. And I hope this makes you feel pretty good too. I'm looking at these pies. Kumar, I like you a lot.

I don't want to eat your pie. Sorry, buddy. And it may be because we were talking about a pork pie earlier on because I like a savory pie myself. pork pie earlier on because I like I'm I like a savory pie myself the crust that Lila Rose has assembled to me seems to visually resembles that kind of sort of dense rich savory crust that I tend to associate with an English pork pie and I know that that crust by the way you can send me letters if you want I I don't know it off the top of my head, but there's this very specific way of making that kind of crust, which I do not believe involves cold water. I think it involves hot water, but set that aside. Maybe it's the Paul Hollywood in me. Sorry to be a monarchy apologist, Kumar,

but there's something about me that just wants to just grab that piece of pie, flip it over, laminate the heck out of it with a fork, num num, eat up all those little buttery flakes and then throw the mock filling away. That looks delicious to me, although, and I will say this, your pies, Kumar, look beautiful, Delicious to me, although, and I will say this, your pies, Kumar, look beautiful, both tops and crusts, but your crusts look very typically like what I would see at a'm sorry, Kumar. They're probably delicious. But as someone who is not often tempted to eat any form of sweet, I personally, maybe it's just me, I would go for Lila Rose's before I went for yours. I'm sure it's delicious though. And I hope to break pie with you both sometime in the future. That said though, I hear what you're saying, Kumar, and I hear what you're saying, Lila Rose, and I think they're very complimentary. Whatever the recipe your mom wrote, she wrote it down and it does not incorporate any of the freezing techniques. That's the mystery of your approach, Lila Rose, because you say,

my mom used to make it the right way, but then she changed and now she's less strict about it. But she never was. You never saw your mom grate frozen butter on a box grater. That's something you picked up somewhere else. Yes or no? Yes. You picked it up somewhere else. Maybe even from J. Kenji Lopez Alt or somewhere else on the internet where they're always talking about how to make a perfect thing. Perfect. That's an improvisation of your own and a good one but i think you need to acknowledge that you are making these improvisations and i think you have acknowledged that you're making these

improvisations because in your mother's recipe there are ingredients written down and then there are ingredients that were not written down the ingredient of terror and the ingredient of guilt. And I think that you've made a delicious pie, at least one that looks delicious to me. But I think when you are making food for others and your primary driver is anxiety and trying to live up to something, someone else, or some internal measure, it becomes stressful for everyone and especially you. I think you deserve, first of all, to perfect your pie crust and make it your own because you haven't done that yet because you ruined that Thanksgiving.

And you also haven't learned to buy lids for your Tupperware and therefore your husband is spraying your kitchen with flour. Like the system has not yet been perfected. I think you deserve to perfect that system and get so good at it that you are not feeling stressful about it. And Kumar will have to acknowledge that you have made the better crust. Because I have no doubt. Kumar makes a great crust just winging it.

Some people can do that. Not me. Not you, Lila Rose. Not me or you. We got to do it the right way. We got to do it a little bit better. It's like a voice in our head pushing us to box graders and freezing the flour. I mean, when I heard that you froze your

flour i had to say lila rose that both was upsetting to me but like really interesting like wow like holy cats maybe she should not only freeze the flour and the butter and the bowl and the salt and the water almost, but also Lila Rose, you're with me, right? You got to freeze that box grater. Ah, right. You see what I'm saying now? Oh yeah.

I think you should experiment and get in there and, and, and perfect this thing point by point. I don't want you to feel anxiety about being a type A person. That is wasted energy in a life that is too short. But I do want you to be able to have your life's wish, which is to show Kumar he's not the only one who can do it right and you can do it better. You need to make the best pie crust of all time. You freeze everything, but you make your system so that it works, so that it is yours and not your mother's. And you're not feeling anxiety about living up to something or whether you're doing it quite right because you know you are doing it absolutely right and better than Kumar. You deserve that in your life.

Your ideal rulings are Kumar. When they make the specific pie together, they make it the way their mom taught them to make it. She can make her pie crust however she wants for other pies or even this recipe. If they're not together, I can't, I can't rule that. I can't. Sorry, Kumar. Cause Lila Rose is going to make her mock pumpkin pie with the all frozen crust, but she's going to get it right. And it's going to blow your mind. She's not there yet. Lila Rose, you want Kumar to admit that your pie crust is worth the work. He will eventually, but he's not yet. So how do I rule and who's favorite? I guess Lila Rose, and this pains me since I can't grant you either of your ideal rulings.

I have to say that Kumar is right. You should de-stress your pie making. You should find the perfect pie recipe. But let's get rid of all the emotional components and instead just have the joy of experimentation, the joy of discovery, and the joy of covering your bins of flour when they're in the freezer. That's a really fun thing to do. And it's not that it's like step one. That's pretty easy.

Buy containers that have covers. And one more thing, Lila Rose, my order is substitute gin for vodka. See what it tastes like. Maybe that's a secret. Just put that into your list of experiments, won't you? Definitely. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Lila Rose, how do you feel? I feel great. I think that's a wonderful ruling. I should remove the stress from many areas of my life, and I look forward to happy pie crust making. I mean, that Kenji easy pie crust recipe, pretty easy. Yeah, well, with my stress, you can turn anything into a disaster, but I'm going to turn a new leaf. Kumar, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling pretty good. I, yeah, I think I was a little surprised there about the which pie the judge wanted to eat, particularly after I recall him describing Lila Rose's pies looking like it had a slug in it. So, you know, I feel pretty good about coming out on top. Well, it's not perfect. I had to acknowledge the flaws. But, you know, this is the point. She is not yet. Her system has not yet been perfected.

I stand in favor of the system. But I find in your favor, Kumar. She's got to take out the guilt and terror. And I will say this, Kumar. I'm a weirdo. I don't like normal things. I bet your pies are delicious. I'm sorry if you feel insulted. I'm sorry that I insulted you, but I want to eat her. I want to eat her crust. No, don't feel insulted at all. Just,

yeah, it's a good reminder. Lila Rose, Kumar, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you for having us. That was really fun. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We'll dispense some swift justice in just a second. First, our thanks to at Megan LaMothe for naming this week's episode on Twitter, Crustody Hearing. That's French for Megan LaMothe. Got it. Yeah. We also want to shout out our runner up at Scary Beard Pro for the name case number 3.1415926359.

Pie. It's pie. Pie. If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter for naming opportunities at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. While you're there, you can also hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, JJHO. You can join the conversation on the Maximum Fun subreddit at MaximumFun.reddit.com. We also post our evidence and stuff at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. Follow us there. This episode recorded by Ken Walker at Encore Recording Studios in Dayton, Ohio. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Our editor is Valerie Moffat. Now here's some swift justice. Twitter user at Somnosankt says, I like saying it's what it is because it's shorter than saying it is what it is. My friends argue that shortening a turn of phrase like this ruins it. My favorite phrase from Love Island season three through eight or whatever it is that I watched or was forced to watch by our daughter is what it is, isn't it? I don't know. It is what it is has a rhythm to it. It's what it's. You might as well say it's it. In which case, go ahead and say it's it. Please do say it's it. Not yet a sponsor of the Judge John Hodgman podcast, but come on, it's it people. which case, go ahead and say it's it. Please do say it's it. Not yet a sponsor of

the Judge John Hodgman podcast, but come on, it's it people. Get it together, please. Yeah, look, I mean, it is what it is. It's it, but you ought to do it. It. Hey, Halloween is over. What do you do with all your leftover Halloween candy? How do you get rid of it? How do you eat it? How do you dole it out? What about leftover pumpkin pie? When do you throw it away? Or when do you eat it in front of the fridge at 2 a.m. in your pajamas? We're looking for your leftover disputes. Disputes about any kind of leftovers, how you store things, how you share things, how you put dibs on things. We're looking for disputes about the novel The Leftovers by my friend Tom Parada. Braggy, but okay. A little braggy. Or the HBO series by my friendly acquaintance, Damon Lindelof, The Leftovers.

Oh, wow. Wow. Any genuine dispute about the TV show or the novel The Leftovers, we're here for it. But we're also here for everything, right, Jesse? Yeah, absolutely. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO and submit it to us, big or small. We judge them all. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

Be seeing you.