Judge John Hodgman - Dance Dance Resolution

Episode Date: June 24, 2020

C.W. brings the case against his husband, Jeff. C.W. loves to dance and wishes that Jeff would dance with him once in a while. But Jeff doesn’t like dancing at all and refuses to join C.W., even when they are alone at home! Who's right? Who's wrong? With Guest Bailiff Monte Belmonte!Thank you to Jill Graves for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. I'm Summertime, less fun time given the circumstances, guest bailiff Monty Belmonte from 93.9 The River WRSI in Northampton, Massachusetts, filling in for actual bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, dance dance resolution. CW brings the case against his husband, Jeff. The CW wants to dance with somebody. He wants to feel the heat with somebody. Yeah, he wants to dance with somebody. With somebody named Jeffrey. CW wishes that Jeff would get the party going on the dance floor. See, because that's where the party's at and Jeff will find out if he'd do that. But Jeff don't feel like dancing, dancing, even if he finds nothing better to do and asks CW, why'd you break it down when he's not in the mood, even when they are alone at home.

Will Jeff save the last dance for CW, or will CW be a dancing with himself? Who's right, and who's got two left feet? Only one can decide. Please jump to the left, and then step to the right. Put your hands on your hips and bring your knees in tight as Judge John Hodgman steps and ball changes into the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Ha-cha. This isn't this isn't the quote. This is just me saying ha-cha to summertime guest bail of Monty Belmonte for putting in the work,

doing the preparation to write that intro. Let me show you the entirety of my preparation. I found a quote to read. Okay. And here it is. The soul train line only lasted the length of one song, but in that time, Don Cornelius brought you a diverse world on its

feet. And what that did was abolish the regionalism of ghetto America. Back then, the country was much bigger than it is now. Whatever was happening on one side of the country, the other side would never know about. For instance, there was a way of life in the Northeast, its own style, lingo, and dance. Those other parts of the country weren't privy to the same went for the southeast and the midwest watching soul train inspired teens to move to la to be on the show and display their slice of life dance and fashion amalgamated and black people regardless of location began to think on one wavelength summertime guest bailiff monty belmont, please swear the litigants in. CW and Jeff, put your hands in the air.

Come on, say yeah. Everybody over here, everybody over there. Jump to the rhythm, jump, jump to the rhythm, jump. Now, everybody look at your hands. That's a safety dance precaution. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, Lord of the Dance, or whatever? I do.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that Hodgman won the 1991 Brookline Boot Scootin' Boogie Championship? I do. I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Not in any way true. I have won zero contests for dancing and nor will I. I am medium okay at it. I'm going to be honest with you, Jeff. You have an advantage here because I am medium okay at dancing and it takes me a lot of various forms of persuasion to

get me to do it. But this whole thing could be solved right now if one of you, Jeff and CW, can possibly name the source of the cultural reference that I read while I walked, did not dance, into the courtroom. CW, let's start with you. It was a great quote, by the way. It had a lot of amazing content there. I have no idea, but I'm going to attempt to guess, which is Rosie Perez from her Fly Girl stint on Living Color regarding the power of dance.

I'm guessing that that was from her. It's an interesting guess. Diary of a Fly Girl, Rosie Perez from her Fly Girl stint on Living Color regarding the power of dance. I'm guessing that that was from her. It's an interesting guess. Diary of a Fly Girl, Rosie Perez. Perhaps, maybe, let's add it into the guest book. But Jeff, now you have a chance to steal it back. Do you know the source of the quote that I read as I entered the courtroom? No, I was hoping it would be something from the safety dance, but I have no idea. That is absolutely my speed as well. And I couldn't see before when Monty was swearing you in. We are connected to each other across multiple states using

teleconferencing technology. Did you do the safety dance moves when you were being sworn in? I missed it because I was looking at my little piece of writing to read. I do not dance. Not even the safety dance? The safety dance. Monty, tell me if I'm doing it right. It's palms forward, and you frame your face with one palm beneath your chin and one palm above your chin, right? And then every once in a while, there's a big clap, I believe, if I remember correctly. Right, exactly.

I thought that was the Vogue. Oh, Vogue is a whole different thing. That's either side of the face. Greta Garbo and Monroe, Dietrich and DiMaggio, Marlon Brando, Jimmy Dean. We're going to get sued. We're going to get sued. Don't do that. Sorry, Madonna.

Sorry, Madonna. We won't get sued, however, by Amir Thompson, also known as Questlove, the drummer from the roots, the great disc jockey of late nights on Instagram in these days of social isolation, the incredible food maker and eater and writer about her, and as well, and eater and writer about her and as well documentarian of soul train one of the longest running shows on television founded by don cornelius and as amir documents in his incredible book soul train the music dance and style of a generation it pioneered a movement in african-american identity and sense of beauty and introduced multiple, multiple, multiple incredible artists to the world. Soul Train, the music, dance, and style of generation.

That's the plug. Questlove, please don't sue me for quoting your book. It's a great book. I order everyone to get it. But now we must hear the case. CW, you bring this case to me. What justice do you seek against your husband, Jeff? So I have a husband who will not dance with me at all, not in my house, not on trips, not if we go out socially. So I seek a ruling that my husband dance with me at home whenever the possibility allows and actual dance for a full song. And that whenever we go out socially, which is rare, we're both rather introverted. Especially these days. That's a good point, especially right now.

Obviously, the future is changing every hour on the hour, as it always does. But it feels exceedingly malleable and a little bit terrifying our future as we move forward into this hopefully better new normal and work for one. This is true. So I don't know what's going to happen when this thing gets out there in the world, this podcast. But as we are recording right now, there's still stay at home orders here in New York City. You are in Nebraska, however, is that right? Nebraska. Omaha or Lincoln or where? Lincoln. Lincoln, Nebraska. Nice. Okay.

Right now, are you able to go out dancing? Legally speaking? Legally speaking, perhaps. Nebraska was one of the few states that never had any shelter in place or social distancing mandates. So at present, it is technically possible.

But I will say, in fairness, I am, as millions of Americans are, have asthma. So I've been staying at home no matter what and will as long as this pandemic goes on. I feel you, CW. I am virtually raising my Ventolin inhaler in solidarity with you. Thank you. I raise mine back. Good on both of you for staying home and staying safer at home. Now, Jeff, why won't you dance with your beloved husband?

I've never danced. In your life? In my life. Well, I've waddle danced when you rock back and forth with like a junior high dance. Yeah. But that's about the extent of it. Yeah. Was that a traumatic experience for you?

Yes. In seventh and eighth grade, I went to a Catholic school. So we were forced to take cotillion, which is dancing and etiquette classes. And so we danced in groups, but we also had individual judging by the instructor. And he would bring you up there and tell you how bad you were. Individual judging. Oh, this is, let me just say, your pronouns for both of you are he, him. Would that be correct?

Yes. Correct. I don't mean to presume, but I want to make sure. Sure. Thank you. Yeah, of course. And you are two men who are married. Yes. Correct. And that's how you identify. So Jeff, going to a Catholic school and being

forced to dance with girls and being judged on it, combined with who you are as a human being, I don't know when, you know, what you knew about yourself when. But yeah, that seems like a real recipe for dick. Yes. Extremely so. Yeah. I can understand why dancing is not your favorite thing. Have you tried dancing since then? Um, no.

That was it. When would you guess, sincerely, when would you guess was the last time you danced in any kind of public forum? Eighth grade cotillion. That was it. That was it. When I was in high school, I went to a wedding for a colleague of mine. Well, actually, it was an early college. And she invited me to her wedding and said, even back then, people knew I didn't dance.

And so she goes, I'm going to make you dance at my wedding. Oh. So I was sitting there at the reception. Your friend. Yes. And she yanks me out of the chair to go dance. But thankfully, I accidentally stepped on her train and ripped half of her dress off. So I didn't have to dance.

Thankfully. Where did this wedding take place? In an 80s comedy? It could have been. So because you quote unquote inadvertently destroyed her dress, she got distracted and her attempt at forceful dancing conversion therapy did not take hold at that time. Correct. Yes. And how did you feel when you were off the hook? Incredibly relieved.

And what did you do for the rest of the time at the wedding? Drank. Was early college though no no i understand i understand so when cw when did you two meet and when did it become clear that jeff is a non-dancer uh we met in 2002 at oklahoma state university we were both in grad school. In what field, may I ask? Jeff's PhD is in wildlife ecology. He's an ornithologist with a focus kind of on stats. He's a statistician.

He's a bird statistician? He's a bird statistician. Hang on, hang on. Let me put this to the test. Jeff, as of this recording, it's June 9th, 2020. How many birds are there in the world? Don't look it up. And what percentage of them are cardinals?

0.1%. All right, I got to take your word for it. He's Dr. Bird Numbers. Sounds legit. Ornithology statistics. That's cool. That's a cool job, Jeff. It is cool.

I don't get out and see birds very often, but I get to write computer code to count them. You write computer code to count birds? Well, to analyze data from counts. Got it, got it, got it, got it, got it. So would you say that you're more of a coder statistician than ornithologist? At this point, yes. But was your interest primarily in statistics or birds? Are you a statistician who got a job in birds or a bird person who got into statistics?

The latter. I started out with an interest in studying birds and their behavior, and I got really good at statistical modeling. So that's where the career path led. That's a cool job. CW, what's your cool job? I am executive director of a performing arts nonprofit program here in Lincoln, Nebraska. Nice.

Two of you living in Lincoln, Nebraska, a town that I've never been to, but I've been to Omaha. I've been to the Big O. Nice. Yeah, I liked it a lot. A lot of fun there. One of the young, cool dudes that I met there said like,

yeah, it's like Chicago, but without any major sports teams. I'm like, hmm, this sounds interesting to me. I've never been to Lincoln, which is a college town, right? Yes, it is. And the state capitol. And the state capitol. Thank you very much.

Bird statistician there. Making sure I get the facts straight. All right, CW. So you have an incredible job of meaning there because you're working in a nonprofit performing arts center and you're involved in the nonprofit performing arts center and you're involved in the performing arts. So dance is a part of your life, part of your passion, would you say? I would say, and I should clarify, we're what's called a presenting fine arts organization. So

we bring in touring artists and we have our own chorus as well. But yes, dance is absolutely important to me. I grew up around music. I never can recall a time in my life when we weren't dancing around the house or... You can't recall one time in my life when we weren't dancing around the house or you can't recall one time in your life when you weren't dancing around the house. That sounds exhausting. It was actually it was it was it was very tiring. The thing is, I come like I come from a family where everything was sort of made musical chores, those sorts of things. And Jeff knows because even around the house now, anytime I'm doing dishes or whatever,

I'm always dancing and moving and singing because that's a way to burn calories and also to still stay true to my love of music. But I'm always dancing. I was kicked out of show choir in college, but I am a dancer in my head. In my head. I'm not really a dancer, but in my head and in my house, I'm a dancer. in my head, in my head. I'm not really a dancer, but in my head and in my house, I'm a dancer. So you met, you met in graduate school and at some point you had to have said,

Hey, let's go dancing. Cause you love to dance so much CW. And when did you learn that Jeff was like, uh, so I knew early on, like early on, probably in the first two months. And again, I was fine to even dance in his apartment at the time. But he was absolutely adamant that that was not going to happen, that no matter the music, even music he liked, he was into sort of nothing that I was into, but punk. He called it Chicago industrial kind of punk at the time. So the groups like Mazzy Star, Skinny Puppy, those things. I don't see how you dance to that, but I'm willing to try. You dance like this. You sway Skinny Puppy, those things. I don't see how you dance to that, but I'm willing to try. You dance like this.

You sway back and forth. Oh, okay. Or you jump up and down a lot. Right. I just have to say that because I can see the litigants now that we're recording by a teleconference. Jeff, I almost saw you sway. Like you got close. You doing okay?

You feeling okay? You did half a sway. I saw it too. That'll be my dancing for the year. He nearly faded into you, CW. Jeff, what is this genre of band? He's conflated Massey Star, which was kind of like a post-punk new wave type band

with Chicago Industrial. They were like Revco skinny puppy was one band. Some of the names aren't, aren't polite to say in mixed companies. Dr. Bird numbers gets cooler and cooler. CW. He is very cool. I love him. I absolutely love him. He's my best friend. I just think he'd be that much cooler. If in addition to counting birds, he would dance with me. That would make me very happy.

When you went to a Revco show, Jeff, what would you do at the show? Just stand there? Would you shoegaze? I'd usually try to find a booth or something, and then I'd, let's listen to the music. Okay. So, CW, go ahead. I feel like you were about to say something. No, I was just going to say Jeff was born in a really great time for music.

And he was born in June of 1971. And that time, Jeff's seven years older than me. Again, we met in grad school. But it was a great time to kind of love music and embrace it. And I've embraced the music that he loves. Often I'll play Mazzy Star on the house or try to sort of get something on that Jeff might dance to, but it doesn't happen. What is the name of the band, Mazzy Star? Yes.

Okay. Got it. Got it. I was not, I've never heard of this band. Have you heard of them, Monty Belmonte? Yeah, they had that one big hit, Fade Into You, which quoted yes a moment ago oh excuse me easily swaying back and forth yeah let me see if i let me see if you can dance to this music i don't care if mazzy star sues us you can shoegaze to it that's for sure you can sit in a booth and enjoy this

music hang on i gotta skip this ad for teachers college on youtube all right there we go. I listened to this song from minute 112 to 116. Producer Jennifer Marmer, I think we can play that without getting sued. It's only four seconds of the song for me to know that no one would ever dance to this song. Slow dance. Good point. It's a great slow dance song. Yeah. You can leave room for the Holy spirit at your cotillion.

Yeah. That's, that's a true like eighth grade, even though this is 90, 1994 and neither, you know, or I, Jeff were in eighth grade at that time.

Yeah. But when you talk about that kind of like slow waddle with the barely touching arms of an eighth grade slow dance, this song would be part of that for sure. Yes. Let's take a quick recess. We'll be back with more of C.W. and Jeff's case in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join, and you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel.

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Rules and restrictions apply. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with made-in pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made-in, made-in.

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It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town? Just buy it online. This is professional grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level,

remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit MadeInCookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware dot com. Jeff, do you feel that you just don't you don't have the moves? I mean, you don't have the moves. You've never tried the moves. I don't have any musical ability or rhythm whatsoever. Since I was a kid, my parents tried to teach me piano. It didn't stick.

I was in grade school band for two years, and after the two years, still couldn't play my instrument. What was your instrument? Coronet. Right. Bad starter. I could make it sound really bad, but I couldn't make any music. That's not a skill. Making a coronet sound bad is not a skill. Making it sound good is the skill. The last two semesters, we were taking adult piano lessons at the university before the virus shut everything down. Oh, wow. I still

could not get rhythm in any shape or form. I could play the notes, but it did not sound like music. And when we were clapping out beats, I could not follow that at all. Clap with me. Well, there's going to be a delay because of the teleconference.

But this will be fun. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. One, two, no. Keep going, Jeff. No, you're faking. There's no way you can be that bad at clapping. Ask Charles.

Treat us, CW. It's, yeah. Yeah, he can be very bad. But I think music is a universal language. I tell Jeff that all the time. So it's accessible. Obviously, it's not. I mean, given what you just saw and heard, I can't argue.

Maybe some will never speak the language, but I'm hopeful that the ruling today will encourage my husband to, if I may continue the metaphor, become fluent in it. Quick question. I know the answer to this. First, when did you get married, CW? So we got married in 2004 when it was not legal anywhere, but we got married then. And then we were legally married in Iowa 10 years later to the exact date, time and hour. So

we've been married almost just over 15 years. So you had two wedding ceremonies of a kind. We did. Did you dance together at either of your weddings? Not in the least because my husband told me no. And I wanted it each time, but he was not on board with it. So we did not any either. We didn't even have it. There was no dancing. We didn't even have a reception that involved dancing or DJ. Wow. Just food. I wanted it. Yeah. It was not, Jeff, it is not enough that you dislike dancing. You must withhold dancing from others. It's a good point.

As often as possible. I mean, the people who know you must love you. And so they must know that you don't do any kind of dancing. Couldn't you have at least let others dance at your wedding, Jeff? I suppose, but a DJ is so expensive. Make a playlist.

Exactly. Good point. So CW, when your husband won't dance with you, how does it make you feel? It makes me feel temporarily rejected. I mean, I get over it. I've been with him a long time. I love him.

Again, he's my best friend. Been together for a long time. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You know, almost 20 years we've been together. It makes me feel like he's unwilling to meet me halfway on something that I think is a fair request and important to me. And it makes me feel like we're not doing our part as a gay couple, I think, because I think that, you know, we're in an era of marriage

equality. And why not set the set the example right in our own home and then build from there and externally to show the younger generation that gay men too can dance. That's right. You have an obligation to show the world that two gay men can dance together. It's never been done before. I like, no. To show two men can't dance together

because one can't dance. You know, here's my argument in a nutshell. I feel like Stonewall happened so that among many other things, gay men could be themselves. And Paul Lynde appeared on Hollywood Squares and RuPaul has done everything that RuPaul has done so that gay men can be out and proud and just comfortable with themselves. So I would say Jeff is amazing. He's incredible. He's intelligent. He has nothing to be ashamed of. I always say dancing's like a lot of other things. Few of us are really good at it. So, so, uh, many of us should, should still have fun with it. And, and may I add, or will I have one opportunity to add one final piece for my case judge? All right. I'll allow it. I will say, I think it's salient, but I defer to your judgment. The biggest argument Jeff and I ever had was in 2007. And it was a long extended

dialogue regarding who was the sexiest and most erudite male celebrity. And he insisted it was Justin Long. And I said, Judge John Hodgman. So of course, they didn't have John at the time, but I insisted upon that. So I want you to know where he stands in relation to your celebrity sir excuse me for a moment i i apologize i just i had to mute myself there so that i could, I could cough and take a drink of water and then spit it out in a spit take. You're sitting there in Lincoln, Nebraska, CW trying to curry my favor.

Absolutely. By suggesting that you found me more attractive than my co-star in the Apple ads, Justin long. And you're trying to say that all that proves to me is that you found me more attractive than my co-star in the Apple ads, Justin Long. And you're trying to say that all that proves to me is that you have, you do not perceive reality correctly. Well, I would say I probably don't. And Jeff can back me up on that. They're married to me, but yeah, if it'll win the case, absolutely. And of course, it's a sincere compliment to you, Judge Hodgson. I take it as a compliment.

Absolutely. But it undermines your case as a rational actor. As soon as I said it, I thought that. But I thought, you know, it's too late to pull it back now. So I went for it. Jeff, when you think about dancing, how do you feel? Extreme anxiety. Right. I mean, even when it is suggested that you dance alone with your beloved husband in your house with literally no one watching. Yes, we do. Why not? Occasionally waddle dance so that we don't ever dance it's not true

we do at least once or twice a year like the i'll do the that'll be my dance for the year you do a little mazzy star back and forth yes so cw in fact jeff has met you halfway he's done the only dance he ever learned to do. Your complaint isn't that he does not dance. Your complaint is he doesn't dance the way you want him to dance. I respectfully disagree on the following because it is a maybe 30 second waddle. It's never a full song. There's one time we danced to a full song and it was our first wedding anniversary. I do give him that.

I absolutely give him that. But I would love a full song, a full couple of rounds on the dance floor that is our wooden, not laminate wood floor in our house. I want more than one song. I would love that. What was the song you danced to on your anniversary, the whole song? I think it was Nora Jones' The Nearness of You, because that was performed at our wedding in 2004. That's a good, that's a good Wadler. It is. You sent in some evidence. Most of the evidence that you sent in

is irrelevant, adorable photos of yourselves and your cats. It's true. For the record, they are all of these photos of you together when you first met in 2003 at Oklahoma State University.

And then your first marriage, your second marriage, very, very adorable. Plus Bea and Levi, your two blind cats. Correct, yeah. Incredible. They'll all be posted on the Judge John Hodgman page at MaximumFun.org, plus the Instagram account at Judge John Hodgman page, MaximumFun.org, plus the Instagram account at Judge John Hodgman on Instagram.

In particular, who be who has no eyes? One of the most amazing cats I've ever seen. She's so amazing. She really is incredible and super sweet. If I may say, I'll just just add she had recurrent eye infections as a kitten. So they were removed. And'll just add she had recurrent eye infections as a kitten, so they were removed. And that was before we had her. We got her and Levi from our local Humane Society two years ago,

and they've just enriched our lives. And they're wonderful. Yeah, they get around as good as they would if they had sight. They're great cats. Adorable testaments to your love for each other and your love for these cats. And this incredible immortal vampire cat and then B, the cat with no eyes,

your kindness, your generosity of spirit, your decency, and they're all irrelevant. The only piece of evidence that has any relevance is this video, maybe even, is this video of CW dancing a line dance at a wedding it is i'm watching it now what song is this this is the cupid shuffle it's at a friend's wedding in 2013 jeff and i were attending and the song came on and i said, Jeff, come and do the song with the dance, the line dance.

And of course I got my usual no. So I went out and danced and I've announced to me and I'll give this to Jeff. He recorded me. And so I've recorded you participated by recording. He did. He did not give him that, but I would much rather have had him out there dancing with me. Let me just say this to you, CW.

You've got some moves. I try. You know, a wedding is one of the only circumstances where i might get up to dance a line dance i won't do because i don't know the rules you just got in there and did it that said about that said about halfway through you took off your your suit jacket and revealed to be wearing a white t-shirt underneath it. I was. A white t-shirt under a vest. Yeah, it was hot, and I'm a chubby musician.

You're lucky that bailiff Jesse Thorne isn't here right now to judge your sartorial choices. I'm much more forgiving. Fair point. Thank you. When were you dancing to that Nora Jones song on your anniversary, Jeff? Were you feeling anxiety? No. All right. CW, you mentioned you felt a little rejected. Jeff, I mean, and you know that you're not being rejected, but Jeff.

Of course. How did you feel when CW says that? It's somewhat upsetting because I kind of think we have danced the waddle dance that we do once or twice a year. But the amount of skill required for the level of dance that he is wanting is just beyond my capability. I mean, if I was joined that line dance, several people there would have been injured. It makes me upset, but I think it's unrealistic expectations. CW, is it the case that you feel that Jeff is shy about dancing? It has been displayed that he is genuinely unskilled at rhythm, that the learning curve to become a okay dancer is high for him,

but that you believe that if he were to overcome his shyness, no one would judge him on his lack of skill. I concur with that. That is absolutely correct. That would be your argument. Yes, sir. And Jeff, may I say that I think that that is absolutely correct your argument yes sir and jeff may i say that i think that that is true i was looking at that video and cw was doing some good dancing but most most people

at a white wedding are not good dancers you can get away with a lot of not it's not the soul train line where you have to display your moves the waddle will get you pretty far do you do you feel do you feel held back by your shyness i think that may be part of it but most of it is just a complete lack of skill so it's not the shyness. It's the not wanting to look like a complete and utter idiot. Yeah. But Jeff, you know that no one becomes a doctor of bird counting overnight. You have to study.

You have to go to graduate school. I mean, you were taking those piano lessons. Clearly you want to, to bring music into your life. Do you think you'll ever go back to those piano lessons? I'd like to. Yeah.

He was good at piano. I just want to say that. He's bad at it. He's hard on himself about a lot, but he was good. He was learning piano, and I think that's true for a lot of things Jeff does. I think he could learn dance and do it. Bird counters take themselves seriously.

I know. They do. He does. Anyway, Jeff CW outed your age. You recently, or are about to have a birthday in June. When is your birthday?

Uh, the 30th. Oh, so close, but wrong. Too bad. Third was the number I was looking for. June 3rd.

Oh, well I'm older than you like 27 days don't oh wow that's your birthday okay yeah happy birthday by the way yes happy birthday stop ingratiating yourself cw a real john hodgman fan would have known that already. Look up my Wikipedia page before you come here to flatter me. Drop some deep cuts. Well deserved.

I'll take that. Loved you on your three episodes arc on Red Oaks on Amazon. That would be one you could have really gotten that. Not that. I think you're sexier than Justin Long. And obviously untrue fact. All right. CW. Yes. What would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

I would say, given today's discussion and given the case and the ongoing pandemic, I would settle for a ruling that when we can dance at home for the entirety of a song or two, three or four times a year to a shuffle the walking dead shuffle we we do that i would settle for that can it be to the walking dead theme song that would be fun actually that that now we're getting into some choreography i'm up for that jeff may i presume that you would have me order that you never have to dance again and that this never come up again? Exactly. Not even a once a year, 30 second or one song waddle?

Well, status quo would be a good ruling as well. And status quo specifically to your mind is, so that I know. One or two waddle dances a year. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision I'm going to electric slide into my chambers I'll be back in a moment with my verdict Please rise as Judge John Hodgman forms a conga line out of the courtroom CW, you seem to have said

As gay men in Nebraska That this not dancing publicly is a social justice issue. Do you believe this to be true? Are you in an environment where you feel like you need to be advocating for gay men in the face of Nebraska through dance, I guess? I absolutely believe that. The answer is absolutely yes. I think that representation matters and you never know who's looking and sure that the time might come when we're out socializing and if we can dance, someone might cease and go, wow. And also if Paul Lynn was willing to get up there and be on a center square that was aired to the heartland per Hollywood squares and make a

difference, then the least we can do is dance now in 2020. That's how I feel about this case. Jeff, do you feel that in any way your dancing in public is a social justice issue of importance for gay men in Nebraska? Absolutely not. Now, Jeff, do you want to dance inside, deep inside, but are afraid to dance because you feel like you don't have rhythm and because you feel like people are like, do you secretly want to dance, but just or you really have absolutely no care to dance whatsoever? No care to dance whatsoever. I don't find its entertainment value. It just seems like a bunch of people moving rhythmically in a room together. As a bird doctor, have you ever done the chicken dance? I have not.

That's a good question. Make you want to move at all? We're going to get sued, Monty. We can't. I'm sorry. I won't do any more. Let me just ask you. I think this is in the public domain. Does this make you want to dance at all?

Four calling birds, three French hens, two turtle doves, and a partridge in a pear tree. Nope. Nope. Makes me long for cooler weather. Well, will Judge John Hodgman whip or will he nay-nay?

We'll see what the judge has to say in his verdict, and we'll be right back on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching

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If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman electric slides back into the courtroom doing the new electric slide this time and presents his verdict. I am very torn in this because I believe that life is made better and more tolerable through music and the enjoyment of music and even, I dare say, dancing. even I dare say dancing. As a person who is shy about his own body, it is very difficult for me to make the transition into dancing, much as it is difficult for me to make the transition into getting into a bathing suit and letting the world see the shame of my upper half it is hard but as discussed in my book vacation land by john hodgman available wherever books are found which is to say on stoop sales and in little free libraries because i'm not sure anyone's selling that book anymore but anyway you know making transitions from one state to another,

from one state of comfort to a state of discomfort, whether that is physical or emotional, is very hard. But once you get through it, it is endurable and survivable and often quite euphoric, ultimately. So there is definitely a part of me that wants to order Jeff to just get over himself and dance but then I was appreciating something else and I thank you Monty for asking those questions I confess that I was listening listening from my chambers as you were talking to Jeff and CW. At some point you asked Jeff about dancing and he said, I do not see,

I'm paraphrasing Jeff, forgive me. I do not see the point of it to me. It is just people moving rhythmically in a room. And I was like, Oh, maybe Jeff is an Android. Maybe Jeff's, I was remembering that Jeff could not even clap in rhythm properly. Maybe Jeff perceives reality in a very different way than I do.

Because even if I don't love to move from a non-dancing state to a dancing state when I see dancing I know what it is I don't it's an expression of physical joy and beauty and art it is enjoyable to to experience even if you are not doing it it is not just a number of question mark non-people swaying rhythmically in a room it's a thing that happens that people do jeff it's dancing you all you perceive reality in a way perhaps is different and in the same way you know cw perceives reality in a way that is different as well first of all he finds me attractive don't don't know. We don't know what we see. It's like that old college dorm room thing at the University of Oklahoma, right?

Where he was like, is the is the color blue that I'm seeing the same color blue you're seeing? John Hodgman attractive or no? The answer should be clear. I don't know what CW sees. He perceives a different reality where where dance needs to be part of life. He perceives a different reality where dance needs to be part of life. CW, you made an argument that gay men rioted at Stonewall. Rioted, by the way.

Rioted. Because change happens due to direct action and sometimes breaking the rules. Correct. Amen. They didn't write a strongly worded letter. Just saying. They rioted for the right to express themselves. And we have all benefited from that. They rioted for the right for gay men to express themselves fully and you are arguing that jeff is dishonoring that fight by neglecting this invitation to express himself fully but cw what if this is

jeff fully you know that he is shy that's. And shyness is something I don't think anyone ever regrets conquering. But I have seen Jeff clap. And unless he was sabotaging his clapping on purpose. I could see, I see a situation where Dr. Bird numbers just doesn't have the knack. That combination of middle school trauma plus basic shyness around this area plus basic lack of skill plus not understanding what people dancing are doing plus the time-honored precept of Judge John Hodgkin

that people like what they like and they don't like what they don't like and you have to respect that. All of that entwines to me to say that Jeff is someone who does not like to dance. It makes him anxious and uncomfortable. He loves you so much that he has done it on several occasions,

though you refuse to admit it, CW, to the best of his ability, which is low, and he does not want to do it anymore. I'm going to find in Jeff's favor. He is making the effort to show you that he loves you by doing something that he feels uncomfortable doing and is bad at three to four times a year, whatever the status quo is. But Jeff, no one ever regrets overcoming shyness.

And I believe that there is a crime that has been committed that must be put right you did not allow people to dance at your wedding that is not an expression of self that is a denial of pleasure of others if i am and this court is to respect your non-dancitude you must respect the dancitude of the people you love including cw and look dr bird numbers you're coolest you're the coolest guy in lincoln Dr. Bird Numbers, you're the coolest guy in Lincoln. You're coding. You're creating algorithms for the counting of birds.

You love Revco and Mazzy Star. When you go to a wedding, you just sit there and you watch or you film. You take part in it your own way. So when it is next safe for us to gather in groups and breathe on each other again in at least middle school slow dance distance, I order you upon the appropriate anniversary to co-host a party, get a playlist and let your friends dance around you. And Jeff, I mean,

literally you have to sit in the middle of the dance floor on a chair. I figured I love that. You can have a cocktail table and you can just sit there and watch. Maybe they will lift you up. Like at some weddings. Yeah, you know what? You got to have an Aguila hit.

That'll show you. After that, though, Jeff? Yes? I want CW to never mention this again. That is merely penance for preventing people from dancing at your wedding. Do you understand? I do. All right.

And I think you'll have a good time being lifted up in a chair by people and dancing. Who are dancing? Sounds terrifying. Thank you, Judge. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Sean Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman flosses himself out of the courtroom.

CW, you didn't win this case this time. However, a forthcoming dance party seems like it will be a fun affair. And Jeff, the status remains quo. But my question is, and we didn't get into this too much, but are you averse to slow dancing too? Because that's sort of just like hugging CW while rotating. No, it just depends on how complicated the movements are. No, it just depends on how complicated the movements are. There's a lot to integrate when you're listening to the music,

trying to follow the beat, and trying to remember steps and things. Would you be happy with a more regular slow dance, CW, as opposed to some sort of fancy, upbeat Spice Girls dancing? I could live with the slow dance, but I will say I'm happy with today's ruling only because our 20th wedding anniversary is in four years. And I'm all about the judges having a gila dance with my husband in the middle. I'm happy with that. I hope you'll include Mazzy star and Revco on the playlist. Definitely.

Well, Jeff and CW, thank you both for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Another case in the books. Hey, Monty, before we go to Swift Justice, I want to thank Jill Graves for naming this week's episode Dance Dance Resolution. It doesn't often happen that there are like two case names that I love equally and I can't decide. And this week there were three. So I just want to shout out as well to J.J. Gertler for verdict at the disco. That would have been great. Nice. And Tom Lawson suggested strictly courtroom,

all really good. So we got to get some more dance related episodes so we can use those titles in the future. And thanks to everyone who submits titles a week after week. You're all amazing. If you would like to name a future episode, follow judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for title submissions there. You can follow us on social media. John's

on Instagram at John Hodgman and on Twitter at Hodgman. I'm on Twitter at Monty Belmonte. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho. And check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode, MaximumFun.reddit.com. And we're on Instagram, at Judge John Hodgman. Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff. Our producer is the fabulous Jennifer Marmer. Yay! Yay!

Now, let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment. Dre asks, is my refusal to use the terms grande or venti when ordering a drink at Starbucks contrarian? Or is it a righteous rebuke of gimmicky marketing? marketing. One of the things that I stress over and over again during this time of uncertainty is that we should all lessen the burden that we are putting on each other's lessen the load, whether that be viral or mental or emotional. So, yeah, Starbucks has been adding to my burden since it was invented and came to New York City. That said, while I agree with you in spirit, Dre, by being frustrated by this,

refusing to use the terms grande arvente is not contrarian because there is nothing about going to Starbucks that could ever be contrarian. You are wholly anti-contrarian. You are wholly anti contrarian. What would that be called? Trarian. Yeah, that's right.

Dre, you're trarian. Remember, lessen the burden. Every time you make them do the mental calculation because you refuse to say grande or Venti, and they've got to do that dumb Starbucks math to figure out which is the big one. That's adding burden to their lives.

Just say what the dumb word is or go to a different coffee shop. Probably a better idea. There are plenty of coffee shops where you don't need to learn fake Italian. That's right. All right. Monty Belmonte, thank you so much for joining us again. Hope to talk to you later in the summer. I hope so too.

And stay in touch as always. You are there at WRSI, the river morning after weekday morning with the great tunes and local programming from the wonderful pioneer Valley that I miss so much. WRSI.com. We know where you are in with social media, but where are you right now? Monty? from the wonderful Pioneer Valley that I miss so much, wrsi.com. We know where you are with social media, but where are you right now, Monty? I'm on the Cape of Cod. We used to get a yurt in a state park

in Brewster, Massachusetts, but all of those are closed for camping, so we're borrowing a friend's house for a few days and still enjoying the largely desolate beaches in this early part of the beautiful weather. Thank you for taking time out of your break from your truly rigorous morning DJ schedule that I have never envied and to join us again as always. So that's about it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org. No case is too small. No case is too big. Some cases are too medium. I'll tell you what, I'll decide. Until then, we will not see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast because this is a podcast. I can't see you. Goodbye. you. Goodbye.