Judge John Hodgman - Docket Clearing with Rachel Reid

Episode Date: May 20, 2026

Judge John Hodgman and Bailiff Jesse Thorn are clearing the docket this week with guest star Rachel Reid, author of the Game Changers romance novel series that spawned the viral television sensation, HEATED RIVALRY!  Rachel joins us in passing judgement on all things romance-tok, like: what’s a better trope, friends to lovers or enemies to lovers? What’s the weirdest romance-novel trope she’s ever read? And what’s a good entry-level romance novel to convince your judgemental book group? Also, Rachel shares what it was like to “come out” as a romance novelist to her parents, her favorite young adult book series (hint: it was for kids who love responsibility), and which famous major-league hockey players have brought up HEATED RIVALRY to her in real life. Plus: a sneak preview of the next book in her Game Changers series!  NIGHT COURT is coming to the Coolidge Corner Theatre in Brookline, MA on June 11th! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! Have a dispute that you can’t settle? No dispute is too small for the honorable Judge John Hodgman and Bailiff Jesse Thorn! Submit your cases directly to the court at: maximumfun.org/jjho Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgeman podcast. I am Bayliff, Jesse Thorne, joined in person in downtown Los Angeles at Max Fun headquarters by Judge John Hodgman. Hello, Judge Hodgeman. Hello, bailiff, Jesse Thorne. Oh, bailiff, my bailiff. Yes, I am very thrilled to be here in person, in robes, in oaks. I could have worn something a little nicer down.

I forgot that sometimes you see below my knees here when I'm in studio. They're very puffy shoes. Yeah, I was just here for the Max Fund Drive finale, and we have a wonderful guest that we're about to introduce. I didn't want to go home. without meeting our wonderful guests. And summer is right around the corner, Jesse. And before I disappear into the coastal woods of Maine,

I was thinking, what do we like to do during the summer? I know read books. A lot of people like to read romance novels. I thought you were going to say a lot of people like to go outdoors, but not us. No, no, no, no, no. Too many tick-borne illnesses to go outdoors. Stay inside, read a romance novel.

Now, I am no stranger when it comes to novels, but I am a stranger when it comes to romance. Don't know anything about it. So I'm very grateful that we have an expert in both fields, the combination of romance novels, a wonderful writer. Why don't you introduce our guest, Jesse? We are so excited to introduce to the court, a New York Times best-selling writer

known for her hockey romance novels. She wrote the Game Changers series, which has been adapted for the hit TV series, Heated Rivalry, Rachel Reed, welcome to Judge John Hodgman. We're thrilled to have you here. I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you.

I'm very excited. Thank you for wearing that elegant business attire as well. Thank you. Yes, I'm glad I'm wearing my robes because I have to be wearing the exact same thing underneath. That would have been embarrassing. Yeah. So, Rachel, you've written the Game Changers series. For those who haven't read your books or watched the show, can you tell our listeners and viewers a little bit about the work?

Yeah. So the Game Changer's series is a series of at the moment six books. to be seven. Ooh. All hockey romance, all romance between two men. And it is a series, though it focuses on different couples. But the second book in the series is Heated Rivalry. And it was adapted into the first season of the television show, along with the first book,

Game Changer. They kind of make up, yeah, the first season and the second season will be filming soon. Super cool. What is the mix of thrilled, overwhelmed, and terrified? you are, that your books went from very successful best-selling books to intense cultural phenomenon where the other day guest on Jordan Jesse Go told me she was doing a heated rivalries-themed stand-up show and had sold out a theater. Oh, wow. Yeah, every day feels, every day something happens that I can't believe is real. And that feeling has not gone away

for even one minute. It's very overwhelming. So I'm going to say it's mostly overwhelming. It's definitely a little bit terrifying, but overall mostly thrilling for sure. It's really been amazing. Well, rest assured that none of this is real. This is not a real court. And in fact, we don't have any tape in the tape recorder. And these cameras are full of moths. This will be relaxing. In a normal show, we do record it on tape in a tape recorder. We want to make that clear. It's all analog here. We like the warmth of the sound. Now, you know, I used to work in book publishing in the 90s, where we represent a lot of what you call commercial fiction, genre fiction. Romance was a big part of what we published. And at that time, it felt a lot more, I mean,

among snooty literary types, a lot more marginal than it is now. Romance as a genre is really flourishing. There are many, many different subgenres and different styles and flavors. In fact, Rachel, there is a bookstore in my neighborhood of Brooklyn called The Ripped Baudits, which is dedicated only to romance novels. And it's one of the most popular bookstores in town. What's it been like to be working in the genre? And also, how much gay hockey romance fiction is there, aside from your work? There's a lot of hockey romance. That is a massive subgenre of romance.

It really took off during the pandemic. Like, it's already kind of popular. romance in general really took off during the pandemic. And I think also during like the e-book explosion, which was sort of at the same time, I think because it made a lot easier to hide what you're reading. I really do think that's why we have things like monster romance, like all of these things that were pretty niche before are now pretty mainstream. And so there is, there is a decent amount of queer hockey romance, but not nearly as much as like romance. between a man and a woman, usually a male hockey player and a woman.

But still, I keep waiting for the hockey romance bubble to burst, but it never seems to do that. It just keeps going. And I think I kind of got in near the ground floor. Is hockey the most romantic of sports? No. Okay. I don't know why. Is there an equivalent amount of curling romance novels?

No, I think I've seen at least one, though. Yeah. I feel like every sport must have one. Get in the ground floor of that. I was trying to think of like, what is the special element of hockey that makes it? And all I could come up with was that a hockey player tends to have a human body, but with a powerful butt. Yeah. It's hidden, though, by the hockey pants typically.

So it's like a secret reveal. But I do think a big part of it is a lot of people don't know anything about hockey. So it's like basically like science fiction. It's like they don't nitpick the details because they don't know. They don't care. Like, it's just like it could be a made up sport for all they care. And I think it also just seems, it seems like made up because it's on ice, because it like has all these weird skills that you need to have on top of playing the game.

It's also very violent. Yeah, it's physical and intense. Yeah. And also really wildly graceful. I don't want to brag, but I've been to a hockey game. Mm-hmm. I went Okay

I went to watch the Pittsburgh Penguins face off against the Tampa Bay Lightning strikes Lightning Those are you teams Yeah and as is always the case When I ever go to any sporting event If I am there, the team that I want to win loses

I am a walking, breathing curse So I don't go to sports anymore But one of the things that struck me was this it's a it's a I don't want to it's an intense physical game that is that is also extremely graceful like there's a lot of

backwards skating that I never thought I was going to see yeah sometimes I'll just watch their feet and not focus on anything else and it's like you're watching something else entirely now have you you know the only sport that I do follow somewhat closely is extinct hockey so the Hartford Whalers the Quebec Nordiques these are my favorite teams because all the outcomes are preordained, so I don't have to feel anxious. And they're all kind of tragedies in some

ways. Have you considered writing an extinct hockey romance novel? By commission you personally. Like specifically about the whalers? Well, I don't want to say yes, but yes. Yeah, the whalers specifically. And not like the whalers have moved to Carolina, but we're ignoring that. I'm going to want, I'm going to want to hear. That's correct. We're ignoring that. Thank you, Rachel. I'm going to want to read one about the San Francisco spiders, the minor league hockey team that played in the cow palace when I was a teenager. I actually think minor league hockey is a great, I'll use the word arena for romance. I want to be clear, the cow palace, not a great arena. No.

Really ratty arena. Well, one of the things about hockey that I do know, and you mentioned with minor league two, like why is, why would you say minor league hockey is a great arena for romance? I think the, um, I don't, not to say anything mean about the people playing it, but the desperation of trying to hold on to that career is there. There's no money. It's you're still sacrificing your body. It's still violent. You still probably are holding on to that dream of making the big leagues. I mean, there's a lot there. I mean, that's that's kind of romantic. Yeah. In a way that being a superstar NBA player, it's not there's not that sense of yearning, I guess, necessarily. And even in professional hockey, like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, It's not easy to make a living even in major league hockey. No, most, I mean, they get paid. Not that they're paid badly, but they're paid a lot less than the other three major leagues. Yeah.

And then that would be like the superstars. There's a lot of players that aren't making tons of money doing it. And they only get to play for, you know, maybe 10 to 15 years, most of them. So then what? And then their bodies are broken. So, you know, they got to save that money. They've got to find something that will carry them through as whole human beings. And that could be love, perhaps.

Could be. You have a book coming out in 2027. Yeah, it'll be book seven in the Game Changer series. It is the third Ilyan chain book, who are the protagonists of the heated rivalry show. And, yeah, I guess that's about all I can say about it at this point, but it will be coming out June 1st. June 1st of next year. Well, I'm sure everyone will be very excited to read it. and probably they'll find out where they can get it up.

Do you have a website, I presume? I do have a website. It's being overhauled right now. Okay. And we will not mention it. So right now it's just that animated giff of the guy with the jackhammer. It's right. It's dancing.

Yeah. Well, Rachel Reed, thank you so much for being here. Our listeners have a lot of questions and romance hockey disputes, hot takes, controversial opinions to run by you. So maybe we should open up the docket and get into it. We've got something here from Instagram user. Gua-T-R-G-G-2-R-G-G-U-A-T-A-R-G. I saw somebody with a custom license plate yesterday that said, I-M-C-R-Y-N-G.

That's good. It's only since last year, honestly, that you're not allowed to put swear words on main license plates. Wow. You may have seen that up in the maritime. Some Maine people coming up into Canada with some bad word license plates? No, I haven't yet. Yeah, dirty words. Looking forward to it, though.

Anytime I pull into the Hannafords, I'm always lucky when I get to park next to the person who's got a license plate that says, fuck, cancer. It's like, yeah. Yeah. Let's go back to Gwartuard. Which is the better trope, friends to lovers or enemies to lovers? I think friends to lovers is way better. Well, all right, then. Because that's settled.

So friends to lovers is a pretty well-established sort of wrong. romance novel plot line. And I think in life, too. It's pretty normal romance plot in life. And enemies to lovers is maybe, I don't know how often we fall in love with our enemies. I mean, Jesse and I, of course. Yes, of course. But my wife and I were the bitterest enemies before we got, yeah. Talk about he's a rival. Yeah, I was hired to kill my husband. Couldn't do it. Couldn't do it. No, that's why I like enemies to lovers, because it is more fantastic. I mean, it's just more fun. I don't know.

Also, just, yeah, way better pay off. I mean, friends to lovers, nice, but it is very familiar. But enemies, you have to, like, really come up with a pretty wild reason why they're enemies and then resolve it. It's a challenge. What is the most specific lane of romance that, as speaking as someone who became the world's most successful author on the back of same-sex hockey romance? What is the most specific type of romance that you personally have enjoyed?

Oh, wow. That I've enjoyed? Because I've definitely tried a few things. I say this as somebody who recently read for our show Reading Smut. I recently read a book. It was called a Reverse Harem novel. And it was, but it was among show. shape-shifting

merman and mermaids and also the merman were in a biker gang Yeah Was very violent also Extreme lots of biker gang violence That is a lot I've definitely read books like that I've read I know I've read one that was like

A merman who got impregnated By a dragon shifter Yes now we're talking laid his eggs. And, you know, it wasn't for me, but I'm glad it's for someone. I mean, it speaks to... Now, I feel embarrassed that I'm not as familiar with Murman reproductive biology as I should be, but is it like seahorses?

Yeah, it's like seahorses. I think that's the assumption. There's an egg sack. A traditional male presenting merman carry the eggs. Interesting. Cool. Yeah. That's fun.

I think it speaks to books, though. Like, the more, the more, I say this without value judgment, absurd. edges of fantasy romance, speak to the power of books because in a book that can feel exciting and tangible and real in a way that if you were looking at a moving picture of it, you might only be able to roll your eyes, whereas you can engage in the kind of feelings that something like a merman getting impregnated engender without just being silly because it lives in a slightly abstracted imaginary world because it's words on a page. Yeah, I don't think I'd want to watch a merman lay a dragon's eggs, but I can imagine.

Yeah, we just got a hundred letters. So you say enemies to lovers. I say enemies to lovers, yep. What do you say, Judge Hodgeman? What's the question again? Friends to lovers or enemies to love. You're thinking about that reverse harem you're going to join. I just call it a harem.

Why call it reverse? It's a good point. Well, I mean, enemies to lovers is very charged, as I know from the Heated, you know, the Game Changers series, you know, from Meeley and Shane. That's what I love about their relationship is that, you know, like, when you have an enemy, such as it were, even if it's a friendly enemy or a friendly rivalry or whatever, that's charged already. So that's kind of hot.

Yeah. So it's possible, like, you might just sort of. want to hug and kiss just to get it out of your system. But then it develops into a real relationship. I think that's really amazing. Whereas if you're just pals, it's not the same charge. It lacks the frisson.

Lacks the frisson. That's exactly right. Those of these French Canadians or whatever. Yeah. All right. We're about to get really real, Rachel. Prepare yourself. Here's something from Cora in San Francisco.

Are romance novels harmful? Oh, come on. Ooh, Cora. I actually got pants. You know what, Cora? Let me hear you out. I think Cora's on team. They're not harmful.

Okay, good. Some people in my book club say that they give readers unrealistic expectations about love. And because they sell so well, they take up space that should be reserved for more serious literary fiction. I think romance is a legitimate genre. It speaks to our need for connection. Readers can differentiate fiction from reality. Well, I can't speak for yourself. I can't.

dismissing romance as harmful or lesser than is condescending, and it ignores the range and quality within the genre. Please order my book club to examine their biases against romance. They should consider where those ideas come from, cough patriarchy, cough, and read a thoughtfully chosen romance novel in good faith. Rachel, I'm going to guess where you might fall on this particular dispute, but before we get into that, I had understood that, and you've said in interviews, that you wrote the Game Changers novels initially kind of privately. Mm-hmm. Would it be fair to say, in secret or no? In secret?

And definitely because I was a little bit ashamed. Yeah. Because there's that stigma around romance. Forgive me for not knowing, but, you know, have you written in other genres? Was this your first foray into romance per se? This was my first novel that I wrote. Yeah. Yeah.

So I'd written like other stuff, mostly nonfiction stuff. But yeah, this was my first novel. But yeah, I was just- Where you essentially came out as a romance fan and practitioner. Yeah, I kind of did feel that way. I told my parents the day before it came out, Game Changer came out. Yeah. And I had to really like sit down.

I hear they threw you out of the house. Not only do I read romance. Oh, wow. I wrote one because they're big readers, but they're, They read smart books. But your books are smart. I know. I was just, you know.

I mean, let's be fair. There are dumb books in every genre. Oh, yes. And certainly, you know, but romance, I think, has, it's stigmatized as being somehow lesser or less intellectual or less intelligent or less funny or whatever. And it was a real eye opener for me coming to work at Writers' House and reading some of the works that we represented because I came from a, I received a, I received a, I received a, you know, A degree in literary theory from an accredited four-year college in Southern Connecticut, Fancy Pants, School. And it was like, oh, this is as smart and engaging as funny as anything I've read.

So it was an eye-opener for me. So how did it feel when you were able to be celebrated for doing a thing that you love? Especially since the show came out, it feels very different because I used to people who I wouldn't tell many people I wrote books in my life. And then if they found out, they would ask what I wrote and I would say romance, usually pretty quickly. And they usually didn't have follow-up questions after that. But if they did, I would just be like, oh, it's hockey romance. Like, I just didn't want to get into it.

I didn't want to explain it because I knew that they were going to judge it a bit. And now I can just say I wrote he did rivalry and everybody knows what that is. Right. It's very, very different in the last few months. So that has kind of removed that. that bit of stress. But yeah, it was always annoying. I mean, people, you know, I would go to like things like local writers group meetups. And the assumption of the other writers there was that I was writing to a template that was sent to me from the publisher or, or yeah, that it was just

something that was very easy to write when it would take me like, you know, a year to write each of these books. And it would, it would be quite difficult, actually. I mean, as someone who has dabbled in writing fiction, not for a long time, but like writing passion is not easy. It's really hard. It requires an openness. Vulnerable. Yeah. Yeah.

I think it's really annoying that people think that that would be, it's a trope, so it's easy. It's like, not at all. Yeah. Yeah, that does seem to be the assumption, though. But yeah, to me, romance is like a deep character study. You have to create characters that the reader connects to you right away because that's all that there is. All you are doing is rooting for this character to fall in love. So if you don't care about the character immediately, there's no book.

Like, you've lost the reader. So it's really important to nail the characters in a romance. Which came first? Your passion for hockey or your passion for passion? Oh, hockey for sure. I've been a hockey fan since I was a very little. kid. Canadian, you're a Canadian citizen. Yes, I am. And, yeah. Which was, which was your team? The Quebec Mariques. Montreal. Montreal, sorry.

Quebec's rivals, yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess we know who won. Yes. Only if you don't count the fact that they went to Colorado and are currently the best team in the league. I know, but that's what makes their story so sad. It's even sadder, yeah. No, I'm a big Montreal-Canadian fan. Yeah, because I'm boring. I don't know. It's very basic if you're a hockey fan. It's like the Yankees of, you know, hockey. All right. Well, I'm from Boston, so have a great conversation.

I'm not. I didn't say it was a Yankees. No, you said the word, so now I must. And I'm from San Francisco, and I believe there's a hockey team in San Jose still, I think. There is. The sharks? The sharks. They were going to be called the Blades, but people were worried that that was gang-related.

That's something I remember from my childhood. Yeah. It sounds like a generic team in a movie. That he really is. I mean, Sharks does it as well, though, to be fair. It reminds me of the Toledo Daily newspaper, the Toledo Blade. That's a good point. It's fun when the Jets and the Sharks play, though.

I never thought about that. The idea that it gives someone an unrealistic idea about romance, it's like, I don't know. Have you ever seen much ado about nothing? You know what I mean? Right. Yeah, romance has been around. So, Ticora and her. book group in San Francisco. Obviously, you know, I judge in favor of romantic fiction.

What are there books that you would recommend to Cora's group that might as a gateway? Well, yeah, that might change their mind or or make them feel like garbage for having such a bad opinion. That's what I really want for Cora is to humiliate her, her book group friends who don't like romance. The one that I usually recommend and have for years is the hating game by Sally Thorne. It has been adapted into a movie as well. It's very popular. It's kind of an enemies-to-lovers workplace romance.

And it's just like a good page turner. I mean, it's one of the early ones that I was really into. And I think, yeah, if you've never read a romance novel, this might grab you. Is there a workplace of a podcasting network? No. No, that's Linda Holmes' novel. Oh, right, good point. I actually, I was about to say, you know, I don't know where the line between a novel about romance and a romance novel is drawn, or if that's a meaningful distinction.

But I actually found Linda Holmes' books, a friend of the court, to be perfect illustrations of this for, like, for me, a non-romance reader, typically. Right. You know, they live somewhere on the continuum between novel about romance and romance novel. I don't know where the lines are drawn or if they're meaningful, but Evie Drake starts over, which is a baseball romance and that it is about the romantic interest is a baseball pitcher who has the yips. Uh-huh. Sure. And back after this, which is actually set in a podcast office. Oh, it is, huh? Or with a podcast producer.

So I can't write my novel that I've... No, you still can. Maximum. Okay. We're going to take a quick... I already have the license plate. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back with more with Rachel Reid in just a second.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I am bailiff, Jesse Thorne. With me, Judge John Hodgman. And we're clearing the docket with the legendary writer of the Game Changer series, Rachel, we're so thrilled to have you here. Okay. Here is a question, not strictly about romance. novels, but it is about a dynamic often found in them.

J.mer giggles on Instagram. Jmer giggles. J. Mergiggles. Or could be J. Merr giggles. Could be J. Mergiggles. Jmergiggles. Jemmergiggles. Yeah, okay. They also could be murgiggles. That's what happens when a merman gets pregnant me. The egg sack is inside me. Okay.

Is chirping an essential component of a healthy romantic relationship or is it harmful? Churping. Not bird chirping. I think this is like the kind of chirping. Yeah, hockey chirping is like trash talk, right? Yep. Okay. But is it?

But playful. Okay. I think. You know, there's some respect. There's an underlying respect to it, I think. Yeah, I think it's essential. I mean, for me, it's essential for me. Is that a Canadian term chirping?

It might be. I feel like it's associated with hockey. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't want to say it all. I've heard it in baseball. I think it would more be trash talking in basketball. Like when Ilya tells Shane, you're boring. That's, that would be chirping.

Yeah. And is there, is chirping off the ice romantic? Hmm. We all have romantic partners here, the three of us. If I couldn't chirp my husband, I don't think it would work out between us. Well, I don't want to blow your spot up, but your husband's in studio down there. Could you chirp at him? On the spot?

No, he has to give me a reason. Well, just look at him sitting over there. Look at his dumb brain. All right, fine. He reminded you when he was reintroduced to you today that he met you days after David Bowie died. And I wanted to chirp him in the moment, but I didn't have the heart. What did you want to say to? Well, that's just an insane way to expect somebody.

to remember you. It was very strange. It was very strange. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just chirping. It's my show of affection to you. Do you accept it as such? Sorry, Matt.

I was quite touched that he remembered meeting me at Sketchfest 10 years ago after David Bowie passed away. Yeah, I mean, he was still morning. That was an emotionally big night, I recall. Yeah. So I'm sorry that I didn't remember. The thing is, you're boring. Does that count? Yeah, good job.

Yeah. But it's affection. I feel very, he loves it. I'll be honest with you, Rachel. Why are you so. happy right now. We're tearing you limb from limb. No, I'm just bullying.

I just had dinner with our friend and colleague here at Maximum Fun Network. I almost said the other thing. Elliot Kalin. And I've told the story many times that Elliot and I used to be colleagues at the Daily Show and I would chirp him all the time.

I would bully him, honestly. And it was like meta-bullying. It was bullying in quotation marks because he is a big comic book nerd and I'm a big comic book nerd and I would walk by his desk and you know take a iron man mask off his desk and go this is mine now nerd and just walk away with it or like knock his comic books over and I thought this was really funny and then I realized that it was going too far um because I was there was a power differential I was an

on camera person and Elliot was one of the extremely talented writers without who whom the on-camera people would fail. And he had to be like, ha-ha, that's funny. And I realized that that was not a fair thing to do. That was bad chirping on my part. And I realized this right after a shoe that I was throwing at him and left my hand. It was a sneaker, to be fair. It was a soft shoe.

And in the apex of it, I'm like, oh, this is bad. And I, since then, I've been quite, like, you know, I was just mean to your husband who was only anything but nice to me. And now I feel terrible about it. It's almost like the nicer they are, the funner it is, though. I have to say it is very clear that it is not the same for everyone because occasionally on Judge John Hodgman, we will have like two best friends or a husband and wife who like to have fun with each other. in that way. Yeah. And many,

many people will take it as it, as those people intend it. Right. And I mean, like, look, I grew up with, I grew up with,

you know, a stepmother who's Irish and grew up, you know, in a single parent household in Belfast where that's the only mode of communication is, is mocking others. Right. And so I came very naturally to me.

I understood it to be such when that comes up. on the show, but we always get a flood of how could they talk to each other this way if they claim to like each other. Right. It's, I mean, it's obviously, it's contextual. And it also has to be consensual to a degree, right? I mean, obviously Matt knows that you love him. And our kids also roast him, but they also roast me.

We have like a whole house of roasting each other lovingly. It's nice. A bunch of Kenny Rogers roasters up there in Canada. I know that when I first. met Matt, the image of him sort of faded away, and all I saw was a fully dressed turkey. It's built in, I guess, to some... It's either because you was roasted or I was just hungry. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, it's in the context of sports, I get it. Like, that's about ritualized confrontation anyway. But I guess I would just say as the nominal judge, we have a couple of gavels here. So I guess I'll use one. I'll just say, just be careful when you're chirping off the ice with someone you love. Make sure there's no power differential. Make sure that they're into it. Make sure that it's spicy to them in the way that it's spicy to you.

And I'll just say, Matt, you owe me one. You owe me one chirp. So when you think of one, get me, okay? I think you left. It's going to be years. It's going to email you five years from now. That's fine. You know what?

That'll be great. I would love it. That would be even better. And you can chirp me too if you would like Rachel. Something comes up. Let me know. I can take it. Okay. We got something here from Sandra. By the way, folks, I can't take it. Yeah. All right. Here is a letter from Anna. I am a romance author with a pen name. My books are explicit. But my mother-in-law insists on reading my books because she wants to support me. She has already figured out my pen name, found my author Instagram, and told her friends. This means there is now a small but determined group of Florida retirees who may already be forming a spicy book club.

When I learned this, I experienced a full-body spiritual evacuation. My mother-in-law is genuinely the kindest and loveliest human alive. but I would like to preserve my ability to make some eye contact with her. What should I do? Now, this listener's pen name, full pen name is Anna or Anna, A&A, Kirk Shaw. If you're her mother-in-law and want to check in on her work. Yeah. What do you think about that?

Do you have a person in your life that when you think about they're reading your book, you have a full body evacuation? Well, I can definitely relate to this, especially in the, early days, you know, after I told my parents that I wrote this very spicy romance novel, they read it, which surprised me. And not that they're not supportive, I just didn't, I thought they wouldn't because, you know, I warned them that it was maybe not for them. But they read it and, you know, went on to read all of my books. And now my mom is a big fan of the show. I think she watches it basically on repeat. We've never watched it together. But I think the thing you have to

keep in mind is that sex is not new for your mother-in-law. It's not new for older women. Because there's been a lot of videos I've seen online of like, I'm showing my grandma heated rivalry and here's her live reaction. Like, your grandma knows about this. Like, this is not going to shock her. Yeah. Like, the assumption that an older woman doesn't know anything about sex is very wrong. If you have a mother-in-law, chances are they are a mother. Yes. And so chances are... Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think this, you know, romance novels, explicit romance novels have been very popular with older women for a very long time. And there's nothing... I think you should let it bring you together. I don't think you should make it so that you can't look her in the eye. I think you should look her in the eye and talk about all of your favorite explicit romance books. There you go.

Yeah. ask, maybe ask your mother-in-law for some recommendations. Yeah. Yeah. Some spicy. Maybe the mother-in-law read scruples. I feel like looker in the eye, give her a high-five. Maybe scruples is based on her.

That's right. It would be. It would be. You never know. I think that's a great suggestion. Use it as a point of conversation opener. You're not that different. And, I mean, if she liked it, then you have something in common.

And trust me, at your mother-in-law's retirement community in Florida, yeah, they're doing it. You're talking about doing the deed. They're doing the deed. Whoa. They are. They are. It's happening.

Full home run? Yeah, around the horn. Mm-hmm. Wow. Hat trick. That's right. Hat trick. Triple X.

I don't got a lot of hockey words. I apologize. I'm trying to think. They're trying to think of icing is one. High sticking? You think they're high sticking at the retirement home? They're high sticking often. Uh-huh.

They're splitting the D. Splitting the D. Everyone watching on YouTube is standing up at their desk giving a standing ovation right now. Yeah. Splitting the D. Come on, Rachel Reed. All right. I love it.

Let's take a break. And then we're going to get to some romance novel hot takes. Hot and spicy takes. We'll be back in just a second on Judge John Hodgman. Judge Hodgman, we are taking a break from clearing the docket. We just had such a great time at the Dynasty typewriter in Los Angeles. Angelese. That's right. Judge John Hodgman, Nightcourt is our brand new show. It's fun. It's woolly. It's wild. It's a little bit different than anything you might have seen at a Judge

John Hodgman show before. If you want to come see Judge John Hodgman and bailiff, Jesse Thorne, after dark, why don't you come out to Coolidge Corner? That's the neighborhood where I grew up in in in Brookline, Massachusetts. We'll be returning to one of my favorite stages in the world, the Coolidge Corner Theater, just outside of Boston, Massachusetts on Thursday, June 11th, and we sure do hope that you will join us there. Jesse Thorne, how might they get tickets? Bit.ly slash nightcourt Brookline, all capital letters. Bit.ly slash night court Brookline. Or, of course, you can always just go to maximum fun.org slash events. That's right. And you know what? We got this night court show. If you're like a

rich guy planning a terrible bot mitzvah, or you need some entertainment on your yacht or or something. Drop us a line. We're available for bookings. We're available for bookings. Yeah. You know, when you think about night court, you think about nightlife. When you think about nightlife, nothing's more synonymous with nightlife than Coolidge Corner Brookline. I believe the bookstore stays open until 10 p.m. now. So they got a nice noodle shop. They've got a terrific noodle shop. And a great theater. We'll see you there. Bit.com.ly slash nightcourt Brookline. Go get your tickets right now or go to maximum fund.org slash events for everything we have coming up.

Let's get back to the docket. Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We're joined by Rachel Reed. And, okay, we got some hot takes. Are you ready for some hot takes? I'm ready. Okay. This one is from Enchanted Gate, 1996,

on R slash romance books. Oh, hot take. Probably a popular subreddit about romance. I have no problem starting a series midway through. My friends think this is psychotic, but there are usually summaries of previous books to keep the reader on track. I don't think there should be pressure to read the other books in a series if it's not for me.

Well, that's interesting because more so than in what we call literary fiction, genre fiction, and again, I'm using these terms because there are terms of art, not that I feel that things should be separated in this way. Yeah. You're going to have romance novels like the Rabbit series by John Updike. Yes. Well, that's one of the rare ones where literary fiction is a series that follows a character over several books.

It's much more common in crime fiction, detective fiction, romance fiction. Submarine books. Submarine fiction. Yeah, shout out submarines. Yeah, space hockey. That's got to be something, right? And so how do you feel about people picking up something in the middle of a series? And do you as an author anticipate that to some degree?

I do. I write each of the books in the Game Changer series as something that could be read as a standalone. I would say except for the long game. the sixth book that really is the sequel, The Heated Rivalry. People have told me they read it first. I don't know how they did that. But that's the only one I'd say, don't read that one first. You're going to get a better reading experience if you read them one through six.

But it's perfectly fine to read any one of them at any time. And then you can read them all out of order if you want, whatever you feel. A lot of people read Heated Rivalry first, then the long game, then go back. So that's fine. that I do think reading them in order is better, but I certainly, you know, grew up and continued to sometimes just go to the library and grab a romance novel off the shelf. It could be, you know, the fourth one in a series. Yeah. But it's the only one that they have at the library that day. And especially with like a lot of historical romance, that's totally fine. Each one is meant

to be a standalone. It's probably about a different, you know, sister in the family or something like that. And there's, their stories intertwine a little bit, but not enough that, um, that you're missing anything. And I think, um, you know, that's kind of part of the craft of romance writing. If you're writing a series, you have to kind of think, like, somebody could just pick up this book, uh, on its own with no, like completely out of context and you have to give them enough context that if things make sense. But, uh, not so much that it gets boring. They don't want to hear about the characters from the other books a lot, but just, just, enough. I think the real question that Enchanted Gate 1996 doesn't answer here. And you've given us

one possible answer is not can you, but why would you? Like, why would you look at a series of books and be like, I'm going to read the fourth one. Right. Well, maybe it's the only one available in the library. This one makes sense. You got your Libby. You got your Libby holds in and one of them came in by surprise before the other, before the first one did. Or you want to stir stuff up in your book group and be seen as a contrarian oddball, which I respect. Sometimes you just read the descriptions of all of them and one of them just sounds more fun to you than the other ones. So you start with that one. I mean, that's often the case.

Did you have any favorite series books when you were coming up, growing up? I was a big babysitter's club fan as a little kid. That was my first big thing. I was really. You think that was represented by writer's house in New York City? the answer is yes well it was it was a huge influence on me it was uh it's so funny because that series is really for like a particular type of of kid who's really into responsibility and work and having a job really funny i never thought about that i mean yes that was my

introduction to that series was that it was represented by where i was working and uh that It opened my eyes to the whole world of young adult series books. We also did Sweet Valley High. But Babysitters Club. I knew people who were my colleagues at the writer's house would ghost write those books. That was a way that they were not all right. Anna Martin did not write every single one of those? Well, no, I don't maybe I don't want them align Anne Martin because maybe she did write every single one.

I don't. But it's not uncommon. But, I mean, it certainly was not uncommon or young people working and publishing to ghost write series books for kids, whether it was Sweet Valley High, maybe so just club. Tom Swift in his flying lab. That's right. There are a lot of horsey books. But that's interesting because I never thought about that that was a series of books for particularly responsible kids.

Yeah, it's responsibility porn. It's like, I love it. It's like, someday I'll have a job. and responsibilities and I'll have to be in charge of someone's kids. I can't wait. Oh, how did I miss this growing up as a only child rule follower who wanted to be older than his age? Yeah, that was

Oh. You were so busy thinking about that flying lab you wanted to have. That's true. I wanted to have that lab in that Zeppelin like Tom Swift. I should have been thinking about what snacks do I make for these kids. It was a series for kids that were researching colleges when they were like in grade seven,

you know, which is Exactly me. But yeah, and those books always had, usually the second chapter, I think, would just be, like, basically the exact same chapter in every book that would just get you up to speed on all of the characters. It would introduce you to each and every character. It would be like their first meeting of the book, like their babysitters club meeting. That was great. You go through each character. Every series book should begin with a roll call.

Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah. It was exactly. Like, you could skip that chapter if you read a bunch of them. And yeah, I guess that was probably when introduced me to just reading. a series out of order because definitely with those, there were a lot of them, and you'd just grab whichever ones were at the library at the time. I definitely wasn't reading them in order. John, your mention of Horsy Books reminded me something that I don't think about that much.

I read so many Misty of Chinkatig books when I was a kid. Oh. Including one. That was not represented by Writers' House, so dead to me. But go on. I feel like these are probably came out in like the middle of the 20th century. They were already a little long in the tooth by the time. I read them in the mid to late 1980s. But like there was a period in elementary school where like the school that I went to didn't have any like, let's say gifted and talented programs per se. So they would just send me to the library for hours at a time.

Yeah. They'd be like, Jesse's board sent him to the library. And I just read, I read like an entire shelf of Misty of Chinkatig novels, these novels about horses. Horses on an island off the coast of Virginia, I believe. But one of them was just about a donkey. Yeah. Well, you love donks. I do love, that's probably why I love miniature donkeys or donks to this day.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. As a Canadian person, you ever mess around with Anna Green Gables? Yes or no. Oh, yes. Yeah. I've never read any of them, I confess, but I have been to Prince Edward Island. Yeah, you're allowed to go there without reading.

Yeah, it's a great book, like the original Anna Green Gables book. It's worth reading. You know, if you just read that one, that's good enough. But, I mean, they're all really good. I read as an adult with my daughter Gracie a few of the Little House on the Prairie books, which I did not read as a kid. Oh, I did. And like the characters in that book as, you know, white settlers in the West have some problematic positions. Sure.

They fit with the characters, their character positions. Yeah. But, you know, but I have to say, like, I think I never read them as a kid because I assumed they were not for me or whatever. They rip. They're great. I was, like, really into them as an adult, 100%. It was probably the number one book series about. getting a single piece of peppermint candy for Christmas.

Oh, that's true. It made me really grateful for socks. When my wife, who is a whole human being, would read to our daughter, who's a whole human being. I'm listening, I'm like, yeah, socks are good. I'm glad we have more than one room. I think that I'm still marveling at this high-opening insight about babysitters club. I need to revisit those. You know, people talk a lot about the TV show, the, the TV show,

pit as being competency porn. And for me, that was a series of books about a burglar called Parker, written by Richard Stark, who was the pen name for a crime novelist who's written a million other things. I can't remember his real name now. But that's just a series of books about a guy. Burgling good? Burgling real good. And he never breaks a sled.

Have you seen good burglar, by the way? Good Burglar 2 came out recently. It's just, and it's, and, you know, you think about like, you know, there are certain books that are there to challenge how you see the world. There are certain books that you read that are sort of like, give you insight into another time. And there's some books that are just there as company, as consolation, as a feeling of like, I get to be with these people again and watch them do a good job, which is, I think, very valuable. Yeah, I think that's how I felt about the book. Babys Sitters Club that I was like friends with these characters and it was nice to revisit them. And I feel like people feel that way about the Game Changer series too. They're looking

forward to the next book because they just want to spend more time with those characters. And it's a nice feeling to be able to have characters that people feel that way. I would hope you enjoy spending time with those characters. They must be quite real to you at this point. They are. Yeah. No, I have been enjoying writing them again. Yeah. But all of the characters in the game in the Game Changers universe, they must be companions to you to some degree. Oh, yeah, they live in my head. They don't leave me alone. It's a, I remember, I think Frederick Bachman said that writing is the best way to make a living when you're insane, by being insane because you just have people talking in your head all the time.

And that's, that's how I feel when I'm writing one of these books. That's amazing. Chattering away in there. We got another one from our slash romance books. You ready for this? This is from Hot Take. Joy Girl, 007. All right. this is not even sometimes when it's a crazy Reddit name you can tell that it's because the Reddit name generator you know like it remember when AOL when people just ran out of things and

AOL just had to introduce a thing that put random words together and then you really knew someone was new to the internet if they had a random words AOL account right uh joy girl 007 that she chosen yeah she chose an identity and I respect it yeah okay happily ever asked is for my grandma. Give me savage, satisfying breakups in the last 10 pages. Whoa. Interesting. That don't get resolved?

Apparently so. I mean, look, your beef is not with me. It's with Joy Girl 007. Her name's right on this piece of paper. Well, I don't disagree. It's just not for romance novels. I'm not against that as a book, but it can't be a romance. Are there breakup romance novels?

only if they get resolved. There has to be a happy ending in a romance novel. It's like a hard rule. And when you say resolved, do you mean that they like, that they get back together? Yeah. I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty common in romance novels to have what called the third act breakup, which is kind of your, your moment close to the end that feels like, oh, no, how will they, how will they resolve this? How will they get back together?

So something tears them apart and then, and then you resolve it. And that's, that's very common in romance. people feel very strongly one way or the other, but whether that needs to be in a romance novel, whether they want it to be there. But yeah, I think you definitely have to resolve it. If it's a romance novel, it has to have a happy ending. That's like a promise.

You're making the reader if you call your book a romance novel. I could see a world maybe in which you have a satisfying reading experience where two people who are together and shouldn't be finally breakup. An anti-romance novel or like breakup porn. Stories often are effective when they both satisfy expectation and then also change or defy expectation. Yeah. And when they do a little of both, it can be quite a great charge. But even if it's just satisfying an expectation, you do have an obligation to do that to some degree. Yeah, I can think of, I don't want to, you know, I'm not going to say the title because I don't want to spoil anything, but I have read something where you believe the couple is the couple you're following for most of the book. Right. Then near the end, it's like, oh, that guy's actually terrible.

this is actually the love interest and the happily ever after for this person. So I do like that. I thought that was very cool and different and pretty brave of the author. And I'll say the name of the book, Moby Dick or the Whale by Herman Melville. I'll tell you, probably my favorite Poirot novels are the ones where you get to the end and he's like, Milt, I do not know. There's a lot of clues, but I cannot put them together. It's impossible to say, and there's no way to find out.

Goodbye. Well, off I go. Tata! That is a good comparison, though. Like, a mystery novel can't be a mystery novel if you don't solve the mystery. Even if you solve it in a way that's twisty or surprising or unexpected, in fact, that's often the most fun. But, like, if it's not solved, it's like an open wound on the page.

Yeah, you pick up a mystery or a detective novel expecting the satisfaction of having it solved. We have to tolerate enough ambiguity in real life. Yeah. We want there to be a landing must be stuck to use a hockey term. they stick the landing in hockey? Yeah, when they do a triple sow cow. Yeah, right, exactly. How many triple lutses are in professional hockey?

Not as many as there should be. What if someone pulled a triple lutz in the middle of a hockey game? That would be incredible. That would be a book. You can do that if you want. I'm not going to write it. Rachel, what's the highest level hockey professional? I'm including players and others who has communicated to you,

they enjoy the game changers? Well, I think I have to say, like, publicly, the commissioner of the NHL, Gary Bettman, has said that he watched the whole series and really liked it. And so I would have to say him because he's in charge of the whole... He's in charge of hockey.

I'm talking about the boys. Oh, okay. No hockey players, like no professional hockey players that are men have reached out, but many female professional hockey players that have reached out. and some, yeah, including the biggest legends in the game.

So that's been very thrilling for me. Our daughter, who's a whole human being in her own right, unnamed person, Hodgman, we'll call her, is a huge fan of women's soccer and women's basketball. But I don't know that she follows women's hockey. What are some of the teams and stars she should follow? Well, Boston has a team, and it's the Boston Fleet, and they are great. and yeah, I mean, I really like...

Are they like the Canadians or the Yankees on the nose? No, no, I wouldn't say so. I'm a fan of the Montreal Victoire, which... That's cool. I think the league is so new. There isn't really... That team hasn't emerged yet. There's no...

Yeah, there's no, you know, kind of easy one to like because they're legendary or anything like that. And I actually, it's... I mean, I kind of root for all of them at this point. It's not a huge. I'm just happy it exists. Maybe I should just say, forget about my daughter.

What do you recommend? Which team do you recommend I follow as a New Englander? I guess the Boston fleet. I mean, New York's also got a team that could use more people, but it's because they play in New Jersey at the same arena that the devil's play out. I'm not going on. He lives in Brooklyn. He's not going to New Jersey.

That's the problem. Yeah, I would go to a lot of G League basketball games if they weren't in a city of industry or something like that. So, yeah, the New York Sirens is the New York team. But, yeah, there's eight teams at the moment. So it's still a very small league. How long has the league been around? I believe this is the fourth season. Oh, so it's really quite recent.

Yeah, fourth, I think. Third or fourth. And so women hockey players have reached out to you saying, I've read the books. I'm a fan. Yes. But there's got to be guys who are reading it who just don't want to. Well, there's, I've heard from some former professional players. Nobody actively playing, say, in the NHL or anything like that has reached out to me.

I have heard, I have seen them interviewed, asked, you know, about the show mostly, if they have any thoughts about the show. Yeah. Which I enjoy because their soul kind of leaves their body a little bit, and I get to watch that happen live. You can tell they do not want to be asked about this show. But, and then they always answer the same way. It's that they haven't seen it.

but they love that it's bringing people to hockey, like, you know, a very careful media trained answer. And yeah, that's about all I've heard from any professional NHL players who are currently still playing. It would be great if someone asked them that question. And then they were just like, yeah, I loved it. I love boning dudes. That would be good.

I would feel so, I would become a hockey fan. One hopes in the not too distant future, there will be male hockey players who say exactly that. Yeah, indeed. I love bonin dudes. It's not just a license plate in Maine. It's also the future of the sport. They'll say, how did you get this so right?

I am certain, as I'm sure you are certain, that there are hockey dudes who will not comment on the books publicly, but who take deep consolation in seeing themselves in your work. And I think that that's something that's really kind of amazing about what you're doing. So thank you. Yeah, thank you. No, I think I've heard from a few people who have said that, and it means a lot for sure. Well, Rachel, what a joy it has been to have you on the program. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. It's been very fun being here. I'm a long-time fan, so this has been a big thrill.

That's so meaningful to us. Thank you so much. I mean, our daughter was the one who introduced us to the show first, and then she's discovered the books, and so have we, and it's just been such a delight to get to know you and your work. Thank you. Yeah. John and I have a daughter. together. That's right. Friends to lovers. Friends to co-parents, it's more like it. Yeah. It likes a certain free song, but we do what we can. Yeah. Books have free song. Life sometimes lacks free song. That's why we read.

You can find the entire Game Changer series wherever you buy your books. You can buy a copy with a big, beautiful game changer cover. Or as Rachel told us earlier, You can read it secretly on your e-reader. You should also check out her standalone hockey romance novels, Time to Shine, and the shots you take. My understanding is that we miss 100% of the shots we don't take, Rachel. Is that correct? That's correct.

Hmm. Rachel, where can we find you on Internet and social medias and whatnot? I am pretty much just on Instagram under Rachel Reed writes. And, yeah, that's where you'll find me. Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne, and John Hodgman, our social media specialist, Megan Rosati, podcast edited by A.J. McKeon. Daniel Spear is our video producer.

We also had production help this week from Ragu Manavalin. This show produced by Jennifer Marmer. Photos from our program posted on our Instagram account, Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We're also on TikTok and YouTube at Judge John Hodgman pod. Follow and subscribe there to see all our episodes and our video content. Yes, and I'm speaking directly to the camera. now to say we are recording this on May the 4th. That's Star Wars Day. Star Wars Day, they say,

May the Fourth be with you. So we would love to hear some of your disputes, your hot takes, your controversial opinions on the subject of Star Wars. Should we just give up and call Grogu Baby Yoda? Probably, right? Yeah, Rachel agrees. John, did you know that I shared my hot take while interviewing Mark Hamill and then got roasted by Toxic Star Wars YouTubers? I was aware of that. I didn't leave any comments under that one myself. My hot take is, come at me, that my favorite Star Wars movie is Star Wars, The Last Jedi. Star Wars, The Last Jedi, wonderful film.

Come at him. It's also my favorite. Also, Rachel's favorite. You know what else I like? But direct your eye or to Jesse. I like regular Star Wars. Regular Star Wars. Just Star Wars.

I like Star Wars. The Ridge. Yeah. Who was the real chosen one? Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, or I'm voting for Kit Fisto. Yeah. It's probably Kit Fisto. Star Trek or Star Wars, would you say?

It's Lars Neutbar. I'm more Star Wars, but I think I like fantasy a little more than sci-fi. And Star Wars, because Star Wars isn't science fiction. Right, it's fantasy. You know what I like about Star Wars? All their little outfits and stuff and a different kind of aliens and stuff. I love that. If it's got robes, it's fantasy.

Got magic. You know, a lot of people talk about the satire, the, like, insightful, you know, social insights on Andor. Yeah. I just like those different outfits. I like the color palette. I liked all those sort of like cinnamon-y colors and saffrony colors. Oh, love it. But I like to put Andor is it really give you a sense of what it would be like to actually live in the world of Star Wars.

I think more than any other Star Wars thing. It's the day-to-day life. It's just those gorgeous outfits. It's incredible. It's incredible. And I've said this before. The only thing I don't like about that show is the title, Rachel. Yeah.

And or why not both? Uh-huh. Oh, God. The fifth time John said that one. Okay. Today. Yeah. Send all your

Star Wars disputes in to maximum fun.org slash JJHO or email them directly to me, Hodgman at maximum fun. org. Don't. If you don't like The Last Jedi, write to Jesse. Yeah. But I like it. We, of course, are happy to hear about any dispute.

Just go to maximum fund.org slash jjah-j-oh and type it in there or email it to Hodgman at maximum fund.org. We will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network of artists-owned shows. Supported directly by you.