Judge John Hodgman - Eminent Toe-main

Episode Date: August 12, 2015

What's "public" and what's "private" space? A woman agrees to refrain from wearing a certain pair of shoes in public, but finds the terms unclear.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, eminent toe mane. Amy brings the case against her girlfriend, Alexa. They made a bet. If Amy won, Alexa had to refrain from wearing a certain pair of shoes in public for three days. Amy believes that Alexa broke the terms of their agreement by wearing the shoes in their yard. Alexa says she stuck to the rules. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. I trust that every animal here appreciates the sacrifice that Judge John Hodgman has made in taking this extra labor upon himself. Do not imagine, comrades, that judging is a pleasure. On the contrary, it is a

deep and heavy responsibility. No one believes more firmly than Judge John Hodgman that all animals are equal. He would only be too happy to let you make your own decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions. And then where should we be? Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he wears only New Balance sneakers so that he might avoid a narrow path?

I do. I do. Very well, Judge Hodgman. First of all, how dare you, Jesse? I am a Saucony man, and you should know that. Well, you're usually a man who appreciates an allusion to the lyrics of A Tribe Called Quest, specifically Fife Dog. Usually I am until it comes down to my allegiance to Saucony. And also, I didn't catch the reference. First of all, Amy and Alexa, you may be seated. Speaking of obscure cultural references, for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom? Amy, you brought this case before this court.

Why don't you take a shot at it? Any guesses? I'm going to guess that it's a quote from Animal Farm. All right, good. We had a good podcast, you guys. Goodbye. Good job, Amy. You win.

Woo-hoo! You win. Ihoo! You win. I knew that I had to make that more difficult. I was going to guess that it was a quote from Animal House. Yeah. What were you going to guess, Alexa? Train wreck. Interesting. All right.

I like that. I like that a lot. In fact, so much that I am going to go ahead the initial agreement about Alexa's shoe wearing was to settle a debate. Is that correct, Amy? Yes, that's correct. And the debate was over? The height of Napoleon. And we're speaking about Napoleon, the French military general and leader? Indeed, yeah. Not Napoleon the pig in Animal Farm,

whose name in that quote was substituted with my own name in order to hide from you the fact that it was Animal Farm. But then I said that thing about animals, and I realized you were going to get it. And you're probably well-read, too. It was a real failure on Judge John Hodgman. I don't want to even blame my summer cold. It was just bad planning on my part

and the fact was like i was looking for something to do with napoleon but there's not a lot of compelling napoleon quotes that i can give you a farewell to the old guard no way agreed okay one of the most famous short speeches in history could have been shorter, in my opinion. Could have been a lot shorter to say adieu than off to Elba with you. So you were debating. So I tried to mix it up a little bit. I bet you if I hadn't said animals, but I still said Napoleon, you would have gotten confused then. You would have thought it was Napoleon and love or yeah. Yeah.

Napoleon and love for. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I was trying to prepare for like a different kind of animal to be the the key between this case and the cultural reference. So I wasn't thinking along the court to not name the style of shoe that you find to be so elect so offensive that alexa wears i think for for reasons of clarity for the podcast listening audience we were talking about crocs oh we are which are the floaty garden shoes that that became so popular on the hooves of Mario Batali and children everywhere, that they burst upon the scene in the middle 2000s in a big way and now I think are still very practical. I own a pair, but I would never wear I would never wear them out outside at a public event, but, uh, but Alexa, you would, and this is exactly the thing. So you were fighting over the height of Napoleon. Amy, you guessed how high? I guessed that he was five one. Yeah. Which in my mind was true because of the film time bandits. Yeah., right. But it's in fact not true at all.

I was going to go with a quote from Ian Holm as Napoleon in Time Bandits, and you would have gotten that too. That I would have definitely had, yeah. This is my problem. There was no way you weren't going to win this one, Amy. Exactly. And of course, Alexa, you said Napoleon was how tall? I said Napoleon was actually not that short.

I think he was like 5'7". But then we played Price is Right style, and it turns out that he's actually 5'6". So she went over and she lost the argument. Right. You got closest without going over. Correct. To you, Alexa. Exactly.

If Amy won this bet, the agreement was what, Amy? That Alexa would refrain from wearing her Crocs in public for three days. And I specifically structured that as the punishment because on the day that we were having this argument, the following day we were going to my mother's house. The next day we were having a graduation party for alexa and then i did one more day just to be vindictive what fun you guys have just chatting about napoleon's height and making up crazy bets and wearing crocs when you're not even on a dinghy And wearing Crocs when you're not even on a dinghy.

Alexa. We do own a boat, John. Okay. We do. Let me get some background information here on the fun times you guys have. Do you guys cohabitate? We do. All right. Alexa, where do you guys live?

We live in Portland, Maine. Oh. One of the many, many listeners to Judge John Hodgman in Portland, Maine. Oh, one of the many, many listeners to Judge John Hodgman in Portland, Maine. I think everyone in Portland listens to this podcast. Yes. There aren't very many of us, so I believe you probably have all of us. And can I ask you, are you the guys who are stealing the other guy from Portland, Maine's trash bins or recycling bins?

We are, yeah. Oh, good. Another case solved. Okay, but you are a resident of Maine. Are you native to Maine? I am. This is Amy speaking. I am a native of Maine. Where are you from in Maine? I am from New York. And you are from New York City? Right outside the city in the suburb.

It's in Rockland County. Okay. And what do you guys do there slash here in the state of Maine? Since I speak to you right now from WERU in Blue Hill, Maine. Other than piloting a dinghy. Yes. Other than piloting our dinghy, I work for a large global financial institution. That's Amy speaking now?

Yes. Right. Because obviously you can't be wearing Crocs to that job. No. Generally, when I go into the office, I wear a suit. But my office is in Tribeca, and I work from home in Maine. Okay. Gotcha. Okay, gotcha. Now, but that's still Amy speaking.

Yes. Okay, Alexa, what do you do for a living such that you wear Crocs all the time? I work for Habitat for Humanity, and I am the manager of our ReStore in Portland. First of all, wonderful work for Habitat for Humanity. That's lovely. And I'm sure footwear is not a high priority for them. I do not wear the Crocs to work because my feet would be killed essentially if I was wearing Crocs all day.

Right. Cause you're on a construction site. Yes. Yeah. So you wear, tell me about, tell me about these Crocs that you wear. You wear them.

What are they? What are they they just regular old Crocs? Are they lined? Do you have a sheepskin liner in them? Well, these Crocs were originally bought to replace a pair of slippers. So they are in fact the fleece lined version of the regular Croc that everyone would have in mind when they think of Crocs. It's getting worse and worse. Maybe worse in some people's minds than a normal croc. Well, I mean, the advantage you have there is that that way you don't have to worry about

the crocs shedding water, which is the sole good thing about crocs. Yes, yes, precisely. And they're not sheepskin lined. They are like some sort of ghastly polyester fleece. Yeah, I had a pair of those sometime in the 2007 range as well. I'm not, you know, when I am contemptuous of you, I am contemptuous of myself. I'm just contemptuous of you. I'm contentious of myself.

I'm just contentious of you. And I just began wearing them, you know, within the past probably six months. I never owned a pair until about then. But I am actually thinking about buying another one. The news of Crocs just reached Portland, Maine. Is it that bad? It sure did. It sure did. And I'm going to say this on your behalf, Alexa, when the Crocs aren't lined with chemical fleece, they are, they are very handy, uh, shoes to have around if you're anywhere near the water, cause water drains out of them and they float and they're light as anything. And, uh, they're,

they're good to have around. But the thing that I cannot stand about Crocs is that when you take them off and you drop them, they boing around all over the place. Like, I've dropped a Croc and it has landed in the other side of the room. You know, like shoes. You drop them and they kind of go boom and they fall. But Crocs is like dropping a couple of super balls all over the place. Drives me insane. That's when I started to transition away from Crocs. But everyone gets to wear whatever they want on their feet.

Agreed. At home. Alexa, why do you like these Crocs so much? agree at home alexa why do you like these crocs so much i like the crocs because i do spend at least nine hours a day on my feet um and when i get home i i really enjoy putting them on i am not a person who ever walks around barefoot so i always want to have something on my feet right now in the winter it's it's helpful because they're lined in the summer not so much but i still i still get a wear in from time to time in the summer months well you can take out the lining you know and wear them as regular crocs but then it's like you you have the pleasure of wearing crocs that are too big for you exactly floppy floppy Crocs. No one wants a floppy Crocs.

No. Amy, why do you hate the Crocs so much? You realize that Alexa could be one of those people who's wearing those running shoes which have the separate toes in them. It could be a lot worse. I wouldn't give me any ideas. Yeah, don't help her out. I do hate the Crocs. I find them fundamentally abhorrent, and they look awful, and they make a terrible sound on the floor, and she can wear them anytime she wants. I'm thoroughly aware of the precedent that people get to like the things that they like and not like the things that they don't like.

And that's fine. I generally am fine with her wearing the Crocs. I don't love it when she wears them out. She's aware of that and generally doesn't wear them out very much. Let me take you back for a second, Amy. What is the sound that they make on the floor? I'm going to say it's like a... What is the sound that they make on the floor?

I'm going to say it's like a... I'm sorry, could you do that much louder, please? Oh, sure. Yep. All right. It's like they're sticking to the floor just a little bit. That actually made me physically nauseated. That was great.

Thank you. Now that we've settled that, I will get back to where you were when I interrupted you, and I will interrupt you now with the appropriate gasp of disbelief. What? Where is Alexa wearing the Crocs out to? From time to time to get a bagel, perhaps to the store uh she might wear them to the coffee shop i wouldn't say that she would wear them like out to any kind of nice dinner but she might wear them out to like kind of a neighborhood place from time to time i don't think that you would disagree with that characterization would you i agree with amy i think i've worn them to all the places that she mentions and um like if we were just going to take a walk, I might wear them around the neighborhood just to go on a walk after work. You acknowledge that these Crocs were purchased as a replacement for slippers, do you not?

Correct. I did buy them as a replacement for slippers. But I would have you know that I also wore my other previous pairs of slippers out of the house because I generally tend to buy slippers that are more rugged. Here's a question. Why would you have me know that instead of hiding that information in shame? I think anyone who knows me knows that I am not a shameful person. Nope. Shameless, maybe, would be the correct term.

Fair. So I am not one of those crock wearers that is ashamed to admit it. Yeah, but now we've entered into a new area. You are saying that you have purposely bought something known as rugged slippers. I would say that everything you can buy bought something known as rugged slippers i would say that everything you can buy in maine is pretty rugged so what are rugged slippers other than fleece line crocs like what were your rugged slippers i would say like ll bean makes a rugged slipper um it had like a rubber sole has a nice sole on the bottom cleats.

Um, do they have steel toes? No, but I think some of them are waterproof. Okay. So, you know, that it's, I was going to say, you know, that it's not okay to wear slippers to a formal event, but maybe you don't know. Maybe you're such an iconoclast that you would. You did wear Crocs to your own graduation party. What were you graduating from? I was graduating from the University of Southern Maine with a master's degree in community planning and development. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you.

And Maine is not known typically for being a particularly formal state. Isn't that right, Joel Mann of WERU? Correct, Judge. Yeah, Joel's wearing a bathrobe right now. Does not surprise me. No, but this is a low-key state because during the summertime, it's summertime and most people are outdoors building things or tearing things down or hiking or swimming in painfully cold waters. And during the wintertime, you're just hiding and eating pizza. But why, Amy, then were you so annoyed that Alexa wore her Crocs to her graduation party that you were throwing? Okay, so I would have been annoyed anyway, but we had explicitly made this

agreement. She conceded to that agreement when we guessed the height of Napoleon. She acknowledged that she was subject to the terms of that agreement. And then for her graduation party, when this party started, she selected flip-flops. Flip-flops. And then you switched to Crocs. Yes, later in the afternoon. The weather turned cold. Sure, well, yeah. May in Maine. Oh, okay, right. I was going to paraphrase Alec Baldwin's great line

from 30 Rock when he wears a tuxedo. Of course, it's after six. I'm not a farmer. Yes. Did you change into your formal Crocs because it was getting later or because it was just getting colder? I think that it was a genuine shoe

change because of the weather changed. I ran in the house because the party was in our yard and just quickly switched shoes. Were you aware that you were breaking your contract with Amy when you did this? I will say that I was aware of the parameters of our agreement and felt that my shoe change fell within that because we were having a party in our yard, which was technically, I guess, not a public place. So I thought, oh, I can just switch into my Crocs right now because I'm in the yard with my friends. Uh-huh. The letter of the agreement was that you would not wear Crocs in public? Correct. Correct. And how is a party filled with members of the public not in public?

Thank you. I would say that if you have members of the public into your own home or yard, that is no longer a public party. So you're saying you would have only honored the agreement if the party, in fact, was free and open to all members of the public, even people you didn't know. And you were obliged to serve them punch and cookies. I would say that even then, if they were coming into my yard, that they were not coming into a public space. And if I was wearing my Crocs in that space, then I would be within the parameters of our agreement. All right. And I have a fundamental disagreement with that characterization of the yard. Go ahead, Amy. Okay. I would say our yard is in full view of the street. If you were standing on the sidewalk, you can look directly into our yard. If people we didn't know walked by, they could talk to us. I mean, the house is a corner lot. And so there's yard that faces both Congress Street, which is the main street in Portland, and the side street that our driveway is off of. in Portland and the side street that our driveway is off of. But it's not like a dead end road.

People drive up and down it all the time. People walk their dogs. Do you have a hedge or a fence or some other crock concealing mediator? No, there is a fence. Purely, it was placed there to keep someone's dog in many years ago. So it's one of those cheap repro wrought iron fences. And you can see right through it. I'm going to, you know, obviously you won this one on a summary judgment and even if you hadn't Alexa's argument is beyond specious. So I'm going to ask you a series of questions, Amy,

that are not directly related to the Crocs. Okay? Excellent. Yep. Go. How much time did you spend planning the party? I would say it had been in the works for around a month. I planned it, and our best friend we planned it together we discussed menu and stuff several weeks in advance and what was on the menu what'd you serve we did hot dogs and I I know I made burgers I think there was chicken like barbecued chicken they also made a special cocktail in my honor oh yeah that was nice oh that's that's very nice before i ask about the cocktail is a hot dog a sandwich no never obviously not thank you very much go it's an indivisible

unity we are all aware of this i would think that everyone would be by now but there's still some holdouts were the hot dogs uh were the hot dogs the color of candy apples? The way they are sometimes dyed bright red in Maine? Yeah, I believe you're referring to the Maine Red Snapper. Sure. Which I happen to love those. But no, we did a certain kind of organic hot dog and also a New York-based hot dog that is Alexa's favorite. Yep. So you served Alexa's favorite hot dog?

Yes, correct. Absolutely. And you created a drink for her? It was a gingery, bourbon-y punch. I made a ginger syrup. I think it was ginger syrup and lemon juice and bourbon and maybe some kind of spritz at the end. It sounds just like me. I think it was gin bourbon.

Yep. Ginger. Yeah. Oh, so Alexa, you can see that this drink was concocted specifically to your tastes. It was indeed. And how many people attended, Amy probably 20 and who did who cleaned up um i did and our best friend did she she also lives in the building um she's amy are you still this is still speaking amy yes the person, executed, and did everything else at the party also cleaned up, right?

Well, I think Alexa probably helped. It would be very unlike her to not help. And why did you want to throw a party for Alexa? I mean, she spent years getting this master's degree, and it's always exciting when you complete something like that. And a lot of us were all excited for her. And also we throw a lot of parties. So it's always good to have an excuse to throw a party. So you did all of this. Would it be fair to say that you did all of this because you're proud of Alexa and you love her? Yes, that is absolutely a fair characterization.

And you had only one request. Mm-hmm. And that request was, you can wear your damn flip-flops, but don't wear your Crocs to the party. Mm-hmm. Yep. All right. Alexa, why'd you put those Crocs on? It got cold. I think in all earnestness, it was.

You know what rhymes with Crocs? Socks. You put some socks on. Yes. And some shoes. Yes, that is true. Is it fair to say that you were being specifically provocative by making this move? I would say that it was an honest to goodness. I think that it's okay to put these crocs on right now because I'm only in my yard, you know, and that doesn't break the rules.

But I really that's the argument. Excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. I'll have order in this court. The argument you're going to make, Alexa, is not it was an oversight or I wasn't thinking or I forgot about it or it was cold and I just wanted to wear the Crocs or I should never have made the agreement. Your honest answer is I believed that I was within

the letter of the agreement by putting these Crocs on and wearing them in front of people on a day that I was specifically not allowed to do that because of my bad estimate of Napoleon's height, that you thought that you were right about this. Yes. I thought, I mean, I'm a thoughtful person.

I'm not, um, it'm not inconsiderate. I definitely thought about it and then said, this is right. And I put them on and I went downstairs. And Amy, I take it you burst into tears? I mean, given that we're the kind of couple that has a debate about Napoleon where there are stakes, I immediately said, really, those Crocs right now? And then we had an academic debate about the quality of the yard as to whether it was public or not public with all of the attendees at the party. And she got one vote and I received all the other votes. Yeah, of course you did. Because you're right. Yeah. Because you're correct. I don't even have to I don't even have to I don't have to crack Merriam Webster at this point to understand a common sense definition of what public means. Yeah, I feel like you should be worried about the person who voted the other way,

because that person might just be trying to break up your marriage or something. Yeah, right. Exactly. In general, we are very worried about him on a regular basis. So you wouldn't be wrong there. That guy also wears Crocs and not just on his feet. Yep. Sorry, Phil. So, sorry, Phil. You don't have to apologize to Phil that guy's the worst he's just he's just a provocateur he's just he's just throwing a croc bomb into this whole thing he's throwing a flaming croc into the party Phil knows what he is yeah yeah he does Amy I've been hard on Alexa here because she's wrong and you're right.

Oh, great. But now I'm going to. It's a story of my life, John. Oh, well, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to I'm sorry to finish writing the chapter in the story of her life that you started writing yourself by breaking the Kroc law flagrantly. A law that didn't have to be.

It only happened because you disagreed about Napoleon and you made a bet and you lost a bet. And then you try to rewrite the terms on the night that your beloved was throwing you a party. But that said, Amy, who cares about these crocs? Get over it. Well, yeah, I mean, that's true, and that's why she's allowed to wear them in the house, even by the terms of the agreement. I didn't stop her from wearing them in the house.

It doesn't feel like I was being terribly vindictive. That third day on the punishment, that was just because I'm... Just extra. Yeah, just extra. But I mean, to not wear them to my mother's house and to not wear them to a party I've been planning, I don't feel like that's a huge ask. Did Alexa wear the Crocs to your mother's house? She brought them to my mother's house. What?

But I don't... They're slippers! What, to show them off? We were staying over! We were staying over. And so she would bring her slippers rather than walk around barefoot or in stocking feet in somebody else's home or in her own home. She's never barefoot. Other people have dirty homes. No, that's not why, though.

Even your mother. Your mother's home is disgusting and disease-ridden. I need synthetic foot covering to protect me. If you grew up in the house that I grew up in, you also would not walk barefoot because. Alexa, is there any place after this bet that you did not wear your Crocs? You know, we're on vacation and I left them at home. So in the in the all of the states below Maine, she has not had her Crocs. I feel like we need to go through a list of important social occasions and venues and find out whether Alexa has worn Crocs to them.

Would you wear Crocs to a wedding, Alexa? No. She looked like she was thinking about it, though. No, I could hear. I could hear the gears turning. What if the wedding were on a dinghy? If we were on our dinghy, I would not quibble with her wanting to wear Crocs. She'd have to get a pair of Crocs that were appropriate for dinghies, though.

Yeah, they'd have to be white Crocs. Indeed, yes. Would you wear Crocs that were appropriate for dinghies, though. Yeah, they'd have to be white Crocs. Indeed, yes. Would you wear Crocs to a funeral? No. Again, ma'am, your silence speaks volumes. Well, I was like, do they make black Crocs?

Yes, I have a pair. You can borrow them if you like. Thank you. What do you own regular shoes? Do you own any closed toe shoes? Tons. Mm-hmm. But the Crocs, is it fair to say that they're your favorite? One of my favorite pairs, yes.

What's the other favorite pair? I have a pair of Merrell. These are actually Velcro kind of high tops leather they're leather those are just rugged slippers as far as i'm concerned yeah that they pretty much are all the shoes that i own that i don't have to wear to work that are actual shoes that can hold up to what i do are pretty much just a version of a slipper. As close as I can get to a slipper shoe or a shoe slipper to wear out of the house, that's me. Do you just go to the shoe store and say, bring me your ugliest?

Yes. Yes, she does. If that gets me a comfortable pair of shoes, then that's probably exactly what I do. You know, since this was a summary judgment case, and I'm glad that it was because there is no case to be made, Alexa, sorry. We have a weird thing where, you know, going to the verdict is pointless, because you know what my verdict is. But I would still like to go into my chambers to gather my thoughts for, for a few final thoughts. And while I'm in my chambers, I would like Jesse, who is of course,

a, uh, um, um, um, a men's clothing specialist, but also a person of good taste and style when it comes to clothing in general to break down precisely what is good about Crocs and what is bad about Crocs. And I will then come back and say a few more words on this subject. But before I do, I have one last question, Amy. How did it make you feel when Alexa came back to the party wearing those Crocs? Oh, furious, obviously. Furious enough to write to you days later.

And fury was the only feeling that you had? I mean, I'm very, very confident in her love for me, so I didn't feel particularly unloved or disrespected. She was very appreciative of the party. I was more annoyed that she had chosen this particular time to do the one thing that she was asked not to do. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to not make my decision, but come up with my final ranting. Jesse Thorne, I'll leave it to you for a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Now, I think it's fair to say that Crocs are universally regarded as one of the least aesthetically appealing types of footwear. I'm actually going to go ahead and assert that they are one of the least aesthetically appealing types of footwear and not accept comments on that matter from you or certainly from Judge John Hodgman listeners, who may or may not be monsters for

all I know. So I'm just going to put, I'm going to start with that. Here are some good things about Crocs. From what I understand, I've never put them on my feet. They're reasonably comfortable and they float and can be hosed down or get wet without consequence. That makes them perfect shoes for gardening, small children, and anything involving a dinghy. For people going to parties where other people are present, subjecting them to these crocs is really a high crime from my perspective, my personal perspective. However, I've got good news for you two. Oh, good. You guys live in Portland, Maine.

Based on my research, that is equidistant, roughly equidistant, from Hudson, Massachusetts and Dexter, Maine. These are two of the handmade leather moccasin capitals of the world. My personal favorite moccasin makers, Town View Leather Moccasins in Dexter, Maine, and Arrow Moccasins, my absolute number one favorite in Hudson, Massachusetts, are both within a weekend road trips drive of you. There, you can buy New England's native footwear, the beautiful, comfortable, rugged slipper that is the handmade moccasin. Handmade moccasins can be purchased often with crepe rubber soles. You can

get them with double leather soles. You can wear them inside. You can wear them outside. They're among the most comfortable and, I think in the appropriate cultural context, attractive shoes you can buy. Oh, you guys are so lucky. You guys are so lucky. Everyone else has to go to aeromock.com, which is their website, which literally looks like it was made in 1994 and does not accept orders online. You just have to call them. Oh, no. Now they do have an online order page. You have to fill out a form online and fax it into them or something. I'm not sure. You can definitely call them. Amazing. Yeah. And I think that, again, I think that either Arrow Moccasins or Town View Leather in Dexter, Maine, your own great state, are great sources for handmade leather moccasins that would fulfill all these needs for you. And they're attractive. They're legitimately attractive. And she would love them because they're comfortable and handmade. I mean, we're the sort of people who just went on vacation antiquing in Asheville.

So the hipstery handmade-ness of them is definitely another selling point. You can get shearling-lined ones if you want, and it won't be polyester shearling. Ooh. Okay, well, now that I've dispensed my further— This segment of the show is called Further Slipper Wisdom from Jesse Thorne. I still get tweets about the last time I recommended slippers. We'll be back in just a second with Judge John Hodgman and his final thoughts. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. Mocs not crocs. Mocs not crocs. Oh, sorry, Jesse. I just came in from a mocs not crocs rally outside. You should get out there. You would love these people.

They're all wearing mocs. Sounds like my kind of folks. Yeah. No, I heard through the slender chamber wall. Sounds like my kind of folks. when it comes to not only buzz marketing, but buzz attacking an actual brand. I'm happy to concur with Jesse's thoughts about Crocs and as well, his recommendation sounds fantastic. And I do not have a pair of these moccasins and I'm going to look into them now. They might be a very nice gift that one of you may give to the other one. Maybe the one of you who is generous and thoughtful as opposed to the one who is needling and petulant about her shoe wear.

Just a thought. That said, you know, Alexa, you should wear whatever you want on your feet. Alexa, you should wear whatever you want on your feet. But I urge you to consider the people in your life more than the comfort of your feet. That is why we have dress shoes, for example. Dress shoes are not good for your feet. They are not as comfortable as any, a rugged slipper, uh, or, or, uh, or, or slip on a hiking shoe or whatever it is. You wear dress shoes just while you, for the same reason you wear dressy clothes, which is to acknowledge an occasion and to, uh,

give gravity to the occasion, um, in order to acknowledge the other people who are involved in the occasion, whether that's a graduation party or a wedding or a funeral. You wear uncomfortable clothes in order to acknowledge this is something that's a little bit special, not me just walking to the bagel store in my slippers. And it is an acknowledgement of the work that people have put into that occasion that you attempt to look your best, shall we say, and not just your most comfortable. We would all be happy wearing incredibly comfortable, ugly clothes all the time. Sweatpants, sweatshirts, Crocs, socks with soles on them, whatever it is. You know, what my dear friends, Paul F. Tompkins and Janie Haddad,

call their soft clothes, their loungewear around the house. But you can be sure that in Paul F. Tompkins' house, even the loungewear is dapper. as punishing a climate and is in the wintertime as Maine and as informal an attitude towards clothing in the summertime in Maine, it is easy to forget that occasionally you need to, uh, add a little extra to your outfit. Something I saw when I went out to dinner at the chart house outside of bar Harbor. And I saw dudes in shorts. I'm like, come on, you guys put on long pants at dinnertime. And so the thing that upsets me about this is not the ridiculous bet. There was a clear contract. And I think any common sense definition of what wearing something in public means would include a party, even if it is held on your private lawn. And I think that though you

do not believe that you have not violated the contract, words have meaning, just as Napoleon was a certain height. There are facts, and you are in violation of that aspect of it. you are in violation of that aspect of it. But I would encourage you, beyond simply finding in Amy's favor, Alexa, to appreciate the context in which clothes are worn. Perhaps it's fine in Portland, Maine. It is a groovy place to go to the bagel store in your slippers. groovy place to go to the bagel store in your slippers. But, uh, but I would, I would next time you walk to a public place in the equivalent of foot pajamas, think about how it makes you feel to essentially, uh, be, be wearing your private clothes in a public space. And next time your beloved throws you a party, think about what might make her feel for you to wear your slippers to it. This has been a little bit harsh and very one-sided, but Amy pulled Animal Farm

from the outset, so this has been written from the very beginning. It's important to remember from time to time to wear nice shoes for a nice party and garbage shoes for around the house. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Amy, how are you feeling? Oh, I'm I'm feeling vindicated.

I'm thrilled that the judge agreed with me about the definition of our yard. I felt that her argument lacked all merit, but I understand why she did it, and I don't feel thoroughly wronged, but I hope that in the future she will think more about her actions. So I feel great. Alexa, what do you think you're going to go for? Ring boots, lace boots, or canoe mocks? Three really good choices. I mean, you can't really go wrong. Canoe mocks sound interesting to me. Yeah, it's pretty good. I mean, you got that whole lifestyle going on. We do. We do. We definitely do. We have a canoe on the side of

our house. Well, Amy, that's not where it goes. It goes in like a lake or something. That's what we've been doing, Rock. We appreciate you guys taking the time to come on Judge John Hodgman. It was great to have you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Great to have you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year.

Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm.

Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Well, Judge John Hodgman, I'm excited that we've fulfilled our true purpose on this program, which is to sell handmade leather moccasins to the good people of the great United States of America. The long con that has been the Judge John Hodgman podcast

has finally come to its fruition. It was always to trick you guys into listening to a podcast for hundreds of episodes until we finally got around to reveal it was all just an ad for arrow moccasins. Yeah, Big Moccasin had us in their pockets all along. And by Big Moccasin, I mean a guy and his dad. Yeah, we were in the pock of Big Moc. Who named this episode, Jesse?

This week's episode was named by Addison Fox. If you want to name an episode in the future, be sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. There you can find our prompts for future episode names.

You can also follow us on Twitter. I'm at Jesse Thorne, J-E-S-S-E-T-H-O-R-N. John is at Hodgman. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, we would love to hear about it, big or small. We consider them all at MaximumFun.org slash J-J-Ho. MaximumFun.org slash J-J-H-O. If you want to talk about Judge John Hodgman on Twitter, use our hashtag. It's the only way to get in on the hot conversation.

Also, you can talk about us on Reddit at MaximumFun.Reddit.com. We have a really lively subreddit going on there. It has all the advantages of Reddit with none of the awful nightmarish creepiness. It is a really friendly community there at MaximumFun.Reddit.com. So go there, check it out. I think you will enjoy it. Our show is produced by Julia Smith, edited by

Mark McConville. Aided and abetted here in Maine by Joel, the third man here at WERU at WERU.org. Wow, that is a high compliment to give someone that nickname. Monty came up with it. Joel hates it.

Right, Joel? Hate it. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Hot dogs, not a sandwich. Maximumfun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Maximumfun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.