Judge John Hodgman - Episode 789: Amicus Brief

Episode Date: September 2, 2026

Fresh off our Hot Dog-cket episode last week with Jamie Loftus, we can’t stop thinking about HOT DOGS! What better time is there than to bring back one of our favorite episodes of all time: AMICUS BRIEF! Casey files suit against his friend, Sean. They go to baseball games together a lot. Casey says that Sean’s antics at the games cause great stress. One of the more appalling antics, says Casey, is the time Sean brought his own hot dogs into the stadium. Sean says that he is well within his rights to do this. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? In the time since this episode first ran, Casey started a new podcast: Dear Movies, I Love You! Casey and his co-host, Millie De Chirico, cover movie culture in the way one would talk about a crush they never got over. Film history, nuance, and criticism for all film fans! Check it out where you get your podcasts! Thank you to Marley Jay for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! ---Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff, Jesse Thorne. John, Labor Day is coming up here in the United States. Yes, that's right. Everyone is getting ready to make a formal goodbye to summer. And you know that that means stocking up on hot dogs. Last week, we spoke with hot dog expert Jamie Loftus. So we thought, why not keep the hot dog fun a rolling? So we are going to revisit our old friends Casey and Sean from Eighty. amicus beef. Yeah, we're going to keep the hot dogs rolling like on those rollers at the midnight convenience store. And guess what? This is a banger.

We got Sean who brings his own hot dogs to the baseball stadium. If you think you've heard a guy with a system, you have not heard Sean's system for keeping his hot dogs hot. This is probably my favorite system that anyone has ever described on the Judge John Hodg— In 17 years or whatever of the Judge John Hodgman podcast. No one has described to me a more remarkable or frankly appealing system. Yeah. Casey appealed to what I call the hottest and snappiest court in the land. Let's enjoy this blast from the Judge John Hodgman past.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, amicus beef. Casey files suit against his friend Sean. They go to baseball games together. a lot. Casey says that Sean's antics at the games cause him stress. One of the more appalling antics, says Casey, is the time Sean brought his own hot dogs into the stadium. Sean says, bringing your own hot dogs is well within your rights. Who's right, who's wrong? Only one can

decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. The Judge John Hodgman podcast had a longstanding and valued relationship with the Dodgers. After the 2019 season, the Judge John Hodgman podcast made the difficult business decision not to renew its contract with the Dodgers. Unfortunately, through the latest contract negotiations, we were unable to come to an agreement that was beneficial for both parties. Bailiff, Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Casey, Sean, please. rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's

ruling, despite the fact that he served as a historical consultant on Ken Burns' landmark documentary series baseball? I do. Yes, I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Yes, Jesse, that's right. I was a paid expert on the baseball documentary. You may remember the one episode that was devoted entirely to my giving the oral history of the four baseball games I have seen in my life. Three of them Major League baseball games. John, I think you are probably best known for having given Ken Burns that one Walt Whitman quote where he says, in our sundown perambulations about Brooklyn of late, We have happened upon several games of base a certain game of ball. Yep, that was me.

I'm looking forward to baseball this summer. The Portland Seedogs are back. Jesse Thorn, Portland Mains, one of their minds. I don't know how many A's team. That's a AAA team, John. Triple A team. Probably training recruits for a major league baseball team would be my guess. I don't know which one.

Yeah, seems fair to me. I've been to a Cyclones game out there in Coney Island. That was fun. Those are fun games. Baseball's a fun game. Yeah. To sit around and not pay attention to. You know who the Cyclone's greatest star is?

No, who's the Cyclone's greatest star? Grandpa Al Lewis, best known from his work on the Munsters. Oh, boy. Yeah. Also known for his work on Coney Island. You can sit in the stands and watch the ocean waves and not watch the baseball. That's the beauty of Brooklyn Cyclone Stadium. I love baseball.

That's the beauty of all baseball, John. You don't have to watch the baseball. That's what's so great about it. It's calming and therapeutic. Why is there not psychotherapy at baseball games, where you go out to the baseball game with your therapist and just talk the entire time? I found out recently, John, that our max fun colleague,

and it is Max Fun Drive time. So this is the kind of thing that your support is going to. Our Max Fun colleague, Dave Holmes, does therapy with his therapist and they're both on surfboards. I think that there's a lot of different kinds of therapy that I didn't know about. In the ocean. I want to be clear. In the ocean.

It's not just a weird office. No, no, no. Although it could be a tank. Could be a pool. I'm renting this from the folks at Hobie. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

We have a podcast to do. Sean and Casey, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment one of your favorites. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as enter the courtroom? I believe that is the... Go ahead, Casey. Oh, excuse me. No, that's all right.

Look, you're familiar with the format because you are a maximum fund producer. Is that not so? That is correct. You are a member of the family. I am. The community, which is the theme of this Max Fund drive. Yes. And yet I am not recusing myself because why.

I can judge this fairly. I'm an expert in baseball. Casey, what programs are you affiliated with the maximum fund community? Currently, I am the producer for the untitled Ify, Dreia, and Alonzo project. Terrific. Which is a movie podcast. And we're actually holding a naming contest currently to rename the show. And you say you are currently working on that show because you expect to be fired.

Those are the stakes, Casey. If I find against you, you are fired. Sean. Oh, wait a one. What was your guest, Casey? Oh, I think that was the press release from Farmer John's Hot Dogs about breaking ties with Dodger Stadium. Okay. press release from Farmer John's hot dogs about breaking ties with Dodger Stadium because

they supplied the hot dogs? Yes. That's your guess. Sean, what is your guess? Okay. That was also my guess as well. Oh, okay. Same guess.

Doesn't happen often. I wish I was called on first. Now it seems like I'm copying Casey, but that is my guess. Oh, well, here's a question. Here's a question for you, Sean. Are you employed by Maximum Fun? Do you work at Maximum Fun on any other shows? I have no affiliation with Maximum Fun.

This is the sound of a gavel. I find in Casey's favor. Wow. Look, I had a feeling you two baseball brains would know what I was referring to that big news in the world of baseball food, breaking shoes, as our friends over the doughboys would say, in the past couple of weeks, long-term supplier of hot dogs to Dodger Stadium for their famous Dodger dog.

Farmer John is no longer supplying hot dogs. They have not yet announced who will be commissioned by the Queen of Hot Dogs to supply the Royal Hot Dogs to Dodgers Stadium. But they are, even though they haven't announced it, they're still serving hot dogs, I would imagine. The good news, John, is that the legendary Dodger dogs of Dodger Stadium are exactly the same as all other hot dogs. Slightly longer. That's the big difference between Dodger dogs and non-Dodger dogs. Let me say, I did a fair amount of Dodger dog research coming up because this case revolves around hot dogs at the baseball park. I was struck by how long those dogs were.

I never knew that they were foot longs, right? I think they're less than a foot long. Maybe 10 inches, it would be my guess. The point I'm making is we're in the midst of this interim hot dog period at Dodger Stadium. I mean, you knew that Farmer John was supplying them before. There is a supplier yet to be announced. But right now, there's enough mystery in a hot dog to begin with. You don't need to have some questions about its provenance.

We don't need to be worried about what farmer will be bringing them to the stadium. Even though you both technically guessed correctly in that you referred to the subject that I was referring to, neither of you guessed the Los Angeles Times April 26, 2021 article entitled Say It Ain't So Vin, Farmer John Dodger dogs are no more filed by Bill Shaken at 4 a.m. Pacific time. That is the only answer I would have accepted. And by the way, Farmer John is owned by Smithfield. So technically it was a Smithfield press release. So I got you.

Sporties. Now I've got to hear this case. Casey, you seek justice here in this court before me. What is the nature of your complaint? So Sean and I are good friends and we go to... Wait, can I just say I can attest to that? Because as usual, when recording a podcast, the best stuff happens before we hit record. There was a ton of incredibly friendly, intimate banter about what is it called?

The dash egg cooker before we got into this. And I tried to get you. I said, save it for the air, you guys. This will prove that you are friends. your friendly banter about the dash egg cooker, but did you save it for the air? No, you ignored me, and you just kept talking about that egg cooker.

And then Jesse came in, having just used the same egg cooker. And the three of you had friendly banter, and where was I left out? So I don't even know what this egg cooker is. You got to get one of these cookers. Okay, you're good friends. You love eggs.

What else? Yes, well, I will just say that Sean actually gave me that dash egg cooker. as a gift. That's how I first came in contact with the dash aid cooker. So Sean and I are good friends and we go to baseball games together.

Sure. Frequently, I've probably gone to more baseball games with Sean than any other human. And he frequently has little antics he likes to pull when we go to the Dodgers games that make me incredibly uncomfortable. Little antics. Little antics.

Major antics, the most troubling one, was when he brought in his own hot dogs from Costco instead of purchasing the Dodger dogs. Wait, which Costco, the Las Felas Costco? There's actually a little bit of a disagreement. My memory is of bringing the hot dogs in, preparing them at home, bringing them into a thermos in the car, and then transferring them into buns and then bringing them into the park. But I had...

You brought a thermos full of hot dogs? Yes, but they don't. My favorite spin doctor's album, by the way. There is video evidence of this as well. This is captured on video. We shall get to the evidence, Casey. Okay, okay. The question is on the table.

Did the hot dogs originate at Costco? And was it the Las Felas Costco? Because apparently this is a local Los Angeles podcast where I have no place. There is a Costco approximately 15 to 20 minutes drive from Dodger Stadium. I'd ponder the notion of stopping by that Costco to procure the dogs, but at that point, it seemed like too much work. It was easier for me just to make the dogs at home and bring them in. Where were the dogs from?

It's the Hebrew National brand from the supermarket. All beef kosher hot dogs. Yes. By the way, Sean, when I eat a hot dog, Hebrew National. It's the best. Nice. We're in agreement. Really, really good hot dog. I don't know if it's any farmer John.

I don't ever had a dodger dog. All right, so you did send in some video evidence. Let's take a look at that. This will be posted on the Judge John Hodgman page at maximum fund.org slash join. Jennifer Marmer, would you please share your screen and share the video with us here in the virtual courtroom? What's happening right now?

I'm winning the dogs out from their temperature controlled thermos. And where did you get the hot dogs? sealing the surface, the thermos, the odors. They're Hebrew nationals. Actually, which actually tastes better than Dodger dogs. People don't know.

They're still hot. Ooh, they're hot to the touch. Feel? Touch. Oh my God, these are fresh. And they're logged in foil. He's laughing them in foil. What?

So, if it's... If anyone out there is imagining a system that makes sense, I want to disabuse them of that idea. What Sean is holding is a commuter mug full of hot dogs. But we're talking about just bear-cooked dogs, which he is fishing out with chopsticks and putting into a piece of foil that he brought. Then turning that into a sort of dog brick, which I presume he stuffed. in his pants spinal tap style to sneak into the stadium.

You got really focused on the thermos there, Sean. Was that you who shot the video, Casey? No, that was my friend Patrick Malin who shot that video and narrated it. The focus on the thermos was taking everyone's attention away from the fact that you were using chopsticks to root hot dogs out of it. And then this is like this is one of these answers

that only pose more questions. What happens after you put the hot dogs in the foil? Well, Dodger Stadium actually allows outside food into the park as well as sealed water bottles. Outside of that, obviously bringing in alcohol or things like that is not allowed. Right. You're well within your rights per stadium policy to bring in outside food. Really? Any food at all?

Even the weirdest foil-wrapped hot dog. Yes. And that's actually a tradition from some low. local Italian delis, people bringing in subs. And I've seen people bring pizza into the park as well. Are we talking here, Sean, about East Side Italian Deli? That's the one. Oh, boy.

Local news with Jesse Thorne and these guys. Favorite hotspots of Los Angeles. Oh, I really can't wait to get back. I'm just jealous because I'd love to be there in Los Angeles and go to a baseball game with you, Jesse. That would be so much fun. Let's go. Let's hit up East Side Italian Deli. get some sandwiches with some firemen.

Now they know some of the tricks of the trade. I could get a sub sandwich, even better than this. I could get a hot dog, hollow it out and pour a gin martini in there. Put a little top it off. Plug it. Plug it with the plug.

Sammy Sosa style. Mm-hmm. And then none's the wiser. I got myself a gin dog. Mm-hmm. Okay, Sean, you answered a question, but evaded the one that I asked.

Are you eating these things bundling? You just walking in with this foil packet of dogs and then just snacking on them with your fingies once you get in? Sure. Well, the whole system was designed to make sure that the dog would be as hot as possible when I was enjoying it in the stadium. So it came straight out of the insulated thermos with hot water using chopsticks for sanitary reasons naturally. And then wrapping them up in foil. And then when I got into the stadium, I would transfer the warm dogs into the bun. and it was a nice, nice way of enjoying a hot, hot dog.

Where was the bun? The bun was in a bag, uh, separate. Were you steaming it in a dash egg egg cooker that you had, that you were charging off a solar panel? I imagine Sean with all the buns underneath a 10 gallon hat. Howdy on his way here? Inside my trench coat, that's where I store the, the buns. So you're also bringing.

in your own buns. Are you bringing in your own condiments? I do not bring in my own condiments. You just ate them bare. You ate these dogs bare? Well, this is where my case is on a little bit shaky footing and I might have to throw myself on the most of the court. Not the part where you're fishing hot dogs out of a thermos with some chopsticks. I have on occasion procured condiments from the condiment section of the stadium. And you are concerned that I will deem that to be theft. Yes. I see.

What else does Sean get up to besides this? Is this the one thing? This was the most egregious thing, but there have been other incidents. Sean was under the notion for a while that you could just walk down to the lower level without a ticket because there was a special type of foamy Kieran beer being served down there that Sean wanted to procure. And Sean was like, oh, you can go down to the lower level. Let's dodge your policy.

They let you down to the lower levels. And I said, no, they don't. No stadium has such a policy. You have to have a ticket to go to the nicer levels. So he tries to walk down the steps to go to the lower level. And the attendant says... That's foamy, Kieran beer. Once that foamy Kieran beer.

Hey, sports fans, you like foamy Kieran beer? Go on over to Dodger Stadium and pop one open. Easternmost in quality, Western most in fominess. Sean, why not pour that foamy beer into a nice cold thermos? Well, let me say in defense of the beer, the top is a frozen slushy of beer. And it's the only place in the continental United States where you can buy that. That's a statement in offensive beer. Anyway, she says you need to have a ticket down there

And I didn't want to go with Sean on his little adventure anyway But I was with Sean And you're a good boy And then I'm a good boy I'm a rule follower Yeah And Sean goes oh my dad has my ticket Which was a lie

And I was annoyed because I thought Sean you should have included me in the lie Now I have to come up with my own unique lie And I don't even want to be in the situation anyway And basically she blocks Sean from going down To the lower level and Sean is mad because quote unquote they changed Dodger policy which was never

a policy I don't know where he came up with that and then the next time we go to a Dodger game Sean solved this problem by not buying a more expensive ticket but by photoshopping a ticket so he could get down to the lower level to get his foamy curing beer all for that foamy curing beer

I tell you folks people do a lot of things for that foamy curing beer and Casey keeps saying foamy curin. It's a frozen slushy top curin. It's a one of a kind beer. You can only get it in Dodger Stadium or in Japan. It's a very rare beer. Hey there folks. John Hodgman

here for foamy Kieran beer. Tired of enjoying unspoiled beer? Well guess what? On the lower level, you can get yourself some beer slushy. And all you need is a forged ticket. That's right. People are doing all kinds of crazy things to get that

wild taste of that foamy Kieran beer. Eastern most in quality. Westernmost in theft. Just remember, B-Y-O-T, bring your own thermos. I have to applaud your leveling up of your game, Sean. Though I am myself a rule follower and a good boy and ashamed of your bad boy antics, Photoshopping a fake ticket is better than saying, my dad has my ticket.

because as far as I can tell, you're not 12. Like, it's very possible you're a young man. It's very possible you could go to the game with your daddy. But you'll be like, Daddy's holding my tickets and I just, can you just let me down? My daddy has the tickets and I want some of that foamy beer. You went straight to counterfeiting. A premeditated act of deception and forgery. All for a little bit of foamy curing beer, he said.

the voice of Francis McDormant Oscar winner from the movie Fargo. Okay. Sean, how do you defend these antics? Well, in my defense, I look at Dodger Stadium and many sports stadiums as reverse titanics in that the lower level and lower class people are placed at the top of the stadium and essentially segregated from the upper class people. And the food options at the lower levels. Hold on. Hold on, Sean. To be clear, you don't see them as reverse Titanic's in that they spring fully formed from icebergs.

Correct. I see them in the sense of a reverse class system where the upper levels have worse food and beverage options. And the lower down you go, there's more premium private restaurants and food and beverage options. and then when you get down to the lowest level, it's all you can eat, and there's a whole buffet, and there's prime rib and all kinds of crazy stuff down there. Setting aside the moral question of this inequality, that is not a reverse class system. It's a class system. Right. I just mean on the Titanic, the upper class, the altitude is totally reversed.

Yeah. I think Sean is absolutely correct in this assertion. having gone to a baseball game with my baseball friend, Dmitri, who works for a law firm that represents the Dodgers, I have not only sat in the fourth row or something, but eaten at the buffet that Sean describes. There is a special room that only people who are friends with someone who works for a law firm that represents the Dodgers can go into, and you can eat anything in there. The furniture included. It's like a Ross that's going out of business.

Yes, it's the dugout club. And I've stayed there also as the guest of lawyers. And it's quite stark the difference being from the upper deck where Casey and I usually sit and going down into the belly of the beast. It's very shocking. So I'm trying to understand. Is it that you believe this class system should be abolished? It is morally wrong. And therefore it is morally right for you to try to foil it.

every turn or is it that you've you've tasted that sweet medallion status of that dugout lounge and you just can't help yourself you've got to get back even at the cost of your own soul right I think it's because I've reached the medallion status so I have to try to claw my way back down into those levels and also if I'm not stealing somebody's seat I'm just going down for some food and beverage I don't see why I should be penalized for that when the the point of the rules is to keep the upper people from coming down to steal seats. You're going to claw your way down and you don't care whose backs you have to reverse stand on. Casey, you've heard Sean's defense. To be fair, this is his experience in the ballpark.

If he's going to get thrown in baseball jail for making up a ghost daddy who's holding his secret good ticket, or making up a ticket, which he could probably get actually, actual, some kind of actual trouble for. Not even get ejected from the park. You're just living your upper deck life yourself. What do you care? Why does this bother you so much? And in what form does this bother take?

Well, like I said, I am a rule follower. And so, you know, just by being with him, I feel like I am breaking the rules and it's causing me discomfort. And you are correct. It is his life to lead. And I'm not asking him to change any of his. other bizarre behaviors, which are plenty. And I, but I, just at the Dodger Stadium when I'm with him in a more intimate, you know,

capacity because I'm weird to get going together. All right. It makes you uncomfortable. It makes you anxious. What are his other behaviors that you're talking about? If I understand correctly, if I rule in your favor, you want me to ban Sean Antics within Dodgers Stadium. But the Sean antics that exist outside Dodger Stadium that you will.

allow include what? You're exactly right. I only want the ruling to come down on his antics at Dodgers Stadium because- Please use the term Sean Antics. Sean Antics, excuse me. Thank you. To remove the Sean antics from Sean would be to remove Sean from Sean. You can't take the Sean antics out of the Sean. Yeah, you cannot. Right. You know, we can put them at Bay at Dodger Stadium. What are some of the other Sean Antics that Sean has gotten up to? He doesn't explicitly break the rules, but he pushes the boundaries. So, you know, Sean was all over the GameStop thing recently. Sean was buying shares in GameStop running up the price, trying to cause those hedge fund

jerks to lose their money. Yes. And then Sean is also the only person I know that, you know how the Monopoly game at McDonald's, how they say no purchase necessary to get the monopoly pieces? You're telling me, Sean's one of these guys who say, I'll be having a monopoly piece and I believe no purchases necessary. Yes. Right.

There's other things I could probably bring up, but that's the kind of way he lives his life, and I appreciate that about him. I believe his brothers call him shady Sean. And I love that about Sean. What is it? Shifty Sean. Oh, excuse me.

The only thing that really makes me so anxious is when we're at Dodger Stadium together. So, Sean, when you hear that, How do you feel to hear that your friend is feeling anxious and upset by your shun antics? I mean, it really hurts me. I don't want to cause Casey any anguish or anxiety. And I'm happy to go down to the lower levels by myself and need be, if need be. I sort of asked him as an offer if he'd like to come. I wasn't begging for his company. So I'm happy to explore the park on my own. I'm a big boy.

You're a big boy whose daddy has his ticket. And, yeah, I mean, I think Casey, like he's saying, he's very much a rule follower, and it's by the book, and I'm looking for loopholes. And I also like finding rules that don't make sense and that are meant to be broken. And I feel kind of sorry for Casey too sometimes when he's just so anxious and worried about what other people feel. think of him all the time. I just don't really care too much about what other people think about me. And I just think people don't, people aren't really focused on ourselves as we are in our own heads all the time. And so I think that that could be a useful perspective for Casey to, to help alleviate some of his anxiety. Casey, is there, I mean, do you take anything from that? Do you feel that

Maybe you are too concerned about what people are thinking? You afraid about what your fellow upper deckies are going to think of you because you know Shifty Sean and hang with him? I'm just concerned that I'm going to get into some sort of confrontation, which Sean doesn't seem to phase Sean in the same way that it phases me. But why would you be involved in the confrontation just because you're near him? Or you don't want to be the, you don't want to be in a situation where you have to go like, I don't know that guy.

I came with my own daddy. I don't know that guy at all. Our daddy's left us here together because they went off to go get some drink vodka out of a hot dog. I guess I don't want to have to be put in that situation where I'm like, officer, I don't know this man. But, you know, just being next to Sean,

I feel like I am getting pulled into some of these situations. I feel you because as folks who are listening know, we now have a virtual courtroom where I can see. everyone. And you know what? I'm just going to screenshot this right now so that we can refer to this. Okay. This will be posted on the show page at maximum fun.org, of course, because we have, we have here Casey, who is truly the picture of a young John Hodgman. Just a nice, good boy. Are you an only child, Casey? No, I have two younger brothers. Okay. Oh, so you're extra responsible. I got you. Who are your brothers, Shifty, Sean? I have two older and one younger,

so I'm sort of a middle child. Oh, boy, did this all fall into place? You're a twin middle child, right? Yes. Sean, you're lost in the mix. You've been an agent of chaos since the moment you were born trying to get attention. And what I was going to say when I was going to post this is like, I can understand young John Hodgman but Casey you're a whole person in your own right you're not a reflection of me

that's not a reflection of me that's not working people thank you but like I feel you and I can feel the chaos energy that is emanating from Sean through the internet

like he's sitting there in a black t-shirt with his black beard in front of a weird gray maybe Brooklyn and sheet I don't know and he's just kind of we even his shoulders

around the entire time. Like, it's always constantly moving around and, you know, standing next to Sean, you're like, you don't know what's going to happen. You know where this kid's going to go. You don't move, John. You can't see all the angles. I know.

I feel like it's exactly right. I feel like Sean is looking for the angles at all times. How can I sneak into that room? How can I get past that barrier? How can I break this rule? How can I get that foamy Kieran beer? I can see why you feel a little unnerved. Also, I'm very tall.

I'm six foot. six inches. I'm very short. And I believe, how tall are you, Casey, five, nine? I'm five seven, Sean. That's very kind of you. And you're five seven? What are you? Let's look at you two mutton, Jeff. This is a cartoon characters. Casey, I have a question about your experience at the ballpark with Sean. I grew up going to baseball games at Candlestick Park in San Francisco where it was cold and miserable and there were about 11,000 people in a 45,000 seat stadium. You went to games in the Hubert H. Humphrey Metro Dome in Minneapolis, I'm sure, where outside of those years when the twins were really great, it was probably a pretty similar situation only with more plastic bags

lining the outfield walls. Daughter Stadium is very full, almost all the time. And so enforcement of going to different levels is pretty active. If this were a situation more like the Metrodome when you were a kid. And when you and Sean wandered down to the lower level, no one stopped you. Would you feel the same way? Is it the rule breaking or the embarrassment of being caught? I think it is both because in my mind, if there is no one there to stop you, that is the stadium's way of saying, we don't really care if you go down to the lower levels. But at Dodger Stadium, a woman's job is to stop Sean from getting the foamy Kieran beer. And so in my mind, Dodger Stadium is saying we do care about this. And also,

I am not a man of confrontation, except with Sean, but that's another issue. So I would say it's both rule following and the confrontation. I have a question. Is it possible baseball fans that the Dodgers Stadium could have once been a place where they didn't care about people going down to the lower decks? Is Sean's memory of a policy totally fictive? Yes, you used to be able to move around the park at your whim. The thing to remember about Dodger Stadium, too, is it's built in Chavez Ravine. And so it sort of has a dark history of evicting a lot of Mexican-American. families there. They stole a lot of the land and paid undervalue through eminent domain. And instead of

building the promised public housing, they ended up giving it to the Brooklyn Dodgers to help get them to move into L.A. So your plan is to get a foamy curing beer and donate it to displaced persons and their families as reparations? Sean, it's Max Fund Drive time. And I'm grateful that you took the time to plug my Bullseye interview with Eric Nussbaum, the author of Stealing Home, Los Angeles, the Dodgers, and the lives caught in between. You can find it on npr.org or maximum fun.org or wherever you listen to podcasts. Go ahead, Judge Hodgman. Your plan for that foamy curing beer is to get it and to give it to the families of the displaced communities as a kind of reparations or is your plan to drink that delicious. Undeniable taste of foamy Kieran beer served only on

on the lower decks to the best people. Easternmost in quality, Western most in exclusivity. Well known to Jesse's friend, Dimitri. Not necessarily. I'm saying that a system that's built with such arbitrary and classist rules isn't necessarily a system that you should be afraid about trying to circumvent or work around or be embarrassed or anxious about having a minor interaction. with a security guard over.

All right. You're saying this, the whole system is effed, and therefore it's okay to sneak a beer. Exactly. All right. There's something to that, I got to say, Casey. That has nothing to do with sneaking hot dogs into Dodgers Stadium. Oh, right.

Sean, I'm about to go into my skybox chambers and enjoy some foamy curing beer and come to my verdict. Bringing it back to hot dogs, you would like me to rule in your favor and if so sentence Casey to make his own hot dogs and bring them into the park and eat them with Sean. Is that what you want me to do? Not just to leave you alone. He's got to proactively bring in his own weiner thermos. Well, Casey clearly has a lot of anxiety and trauma over bending the rules. So I think it would be a really natural way for him to help confront his fears and grow. Okay. I think I've heard enough in order to make my decision. I'm going to

go into my skybox and get myself some pigs and blankets and some cheese cubes from the silver trays and sit in my recliner seat and listen to the game. As I formulate my verdict, I'll be back in a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Sean, how are you feeling about your chances in the case? I'm really alarmed. I was really alarmed when the judge referred to Casey as a younger version of himself. That really put me on shaky grounds. How are you feeling, Casey? I feel pretty good, like Sean said.

The judge referred to me as a younger version of himself, which was very kind. I wasn't sure how this was going to go, honestly, because I've told this case to many people, and it's been pretty 50-50. Have they seen the video, though? 50-50 when you describe it. But when you show a grown man trying to fish hot dogs out of a commuter mug with some chopsticks so he can drop them into some foil he had in his pocket.

Yeah, this is usually just when I'm verbally telling the story. I haven't shown the people the video. But yeah, I feel pretty good. Sean, it looked like you drove to Dodgers Stadium. If you're such a wonderful schemer, how come you didn't take the gold line to Chinatown and walk up the hill. I should have. I have done research on that, and it is part of my future schemes.

I just, I don't think I could ever get Casey to go along with that one. Yeah, Casey's very lazy. As his employer, I can confirm that. Okay. I would go along with that, Sean. I like public transportation. It's just sort of hard to tell with Casey. You never know what's really going to trigger him and set him off sometimes.

I'm even embarrassed to propose new, new ideas. is. This guy's a powder keg. There's no doubt about it. I've known Casey for 15 years and there's no question that at any moment he could explode. He's been holding it inside this whole time making documentary films about pie and at any moment he might lash out, Sean. I don't think you're wrong about that. We'll see what the judge has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. First of all, Casey, I'm flattered that you would take my labeling you as akin to a young John Hodgman as a compliment. For even as I meant it as such, I also knew that saying it is actually something of a curse.

You don't want this. You don't want this. You don't want to be young John Hodgman. You want to be Casey last name withheld. No, O'Brien, I'll say it. probably you're on the website maximum fund dot org i am you want to be yourself and in one way you are not me at all and in a very important way right which is that you are the eldest of three kids whereas sean is the second youngest of four and while i am no expert in siblings because i have

none never needed him that's what i said to my mom and dad seems unnecessary one and done that's how i feel this should be this family i do know enough through observation and talking and extended family to know that and I don't want to generalize but you know older children tend to be the responsible ones and tend to be kind of a surrogate parents to their younger kids that was definitely the case in my father's growing up who was the oldest of three whereas younger children and especially middle children especially the second youngest where you have two middle children who are fighting it out for most middleist, to paraphrase my brother, my brother, and me.

You know, that's a very different personality trait. That is someone who is like, yeah, my world is pure chaos. Why should I not be part of the chaos? Which is how Sean strides into Dodger Stadium. Armed with a certain amount of cultural critical sophistication that this whole system known as Dodgers Stadium is built on lies, material inequality, a formalized class system, the dispossession of marginal communities, and much like the United States itself, should be burned to the ground. Or at least I should get a free beer.

I mean, John, as a Giants fan, I would argue that there is no greater foundational evil than simply building a stadium in which the Dodgers play. I'm just going to say that, you know, Sean, your cultural critique is astute, but is it a moral basis for what you are doing? My instinct is that you are applying it to get out of trouble. That as it may, you are built to create chaos. You seek it out. You exploit chaos where you can. And I can tell you that as a younger and not even much younger,

John Hodgman, but throughout my years of being John Hodgman, I have found spiritual older brothers like you, Sean, guys that I liked to metaphorically go to the baseball game with who were much less rule-followy than me and who would do things like get away with stuff just because they could or would challenge my automatic acceptance of. of rules that are arbitrary or unfair or purposefully exclusionary. So I've stood next to those tall shans, Casey, and I've lived that danger. I understand the attraction. And I also understand the benefit because it has caused me to challenge some of my

instinctive shying away from confrontation. It has caused me to be a little bit, a little bit bolder. And if I'm going to follow the rule, I think about it first. before just automatically doing it. I'm not saying that you're an automatic rule follower, Casey. I'm saying I know where you're coming from and you are getting something out of this relationship. I'm not going to order you to stop being friends.

So I think that when Sean says that, you know, you might, you might gain something from his Sean antics, you can explore for yourself whether you think that there is truth there or not. But I can say for myself, I've engaged in Sean Antics before. and I wouldn't change that part of my growing up. But, Sean, you know, we're here psychotherapizing Casey. I think you have some blind spots that you haven't examined. Mostly that you're six foot six.

Yeah. You may or may not be aware of this privilege. But you can get away with a lot of stuff at 6 foot 6. You can break a lot of rules at 6 foot 6. You just walk through the world in a different way than Casey does at 5 foot 7. I shrunk, by the way, last doctor's appointment. I lost an inch. 5 foot 9 now.

I can't be. I can't. It's not. It's a different thing when you stride the earth like a demented God. Like looking to sew chaos and get that rich foamy beard. And I think you should be considerate of that, you know. How old are you, Sean? I'm 32.

Yeah, you're 32. You're a grown man. You're not a kid. Your daddy doesn't have your ticket. You have your ticket. You're not yet at, but kind of right on the bubble of an age when Sean Antics, it's time to put child as Sean Antics behind you because all the points have been proved. The world does not need you to get a free beer that you haven't paid for.

in order to understand that capitalism sucks. Like, you know, ultimately you're a human being and sharing space with another human being. That's what we're all trying to get back to through this pandemic experience, the chance to be in the same space with human beings and share their air and everything else. And I will say that Casey put his finger on something

that perhaps you haven't examined, which is that the person who is guarding the gate to that lower level, they didn't come up with this system. they're doing their job. And they are, you know, mostly just kind of brushing back people who get lost or trying to con a beer or whatever it is. But, you know, their job is to hold that line, right or wrong. And a six-foot two guy coming up and obviously lying about his daddy having his ticket, that's a flag for them.

That makes their day harder. It doesn't make their day easier in any case. and on a basic level you're a participant in the system to begin with because I presume you're not sneaking into the ballpark. You're paying for the ticket. You could pay. That's the secret of medallion status. It's bogus. All you do is pay for it.

It's not given to you by God or whatever. So this is what we call in a sport of baseball a split decision. Sort of. Casey, I know, feels anxious and I think is made anxious by your shenanics and I think you should hear him. Ultimately, Sean, I'm going to rule in your favor, however, with the provisos I've already given you to do some reflection upon why you are able to break rules and how those breaking of rules may affect other human beings directly, like the people that you are swindling with a fake ticket.

but you are an independent human being who can go and try out any shenanics he wants and is willing presumably to accept the consequences. I mean, I don't know what would happen if you were caught with an obviously forged ticket. You might be kicked out of the game. Poor Casey would be up there in the upper decks, never knowing if he's ever going to see his friend again.

And the other thing that I would order. So I can't find in your favor, because Casey doesn't really have standing aside from his own feelings, which is rough, you know, Casey. but that's that's baseball you know what I mean that's baseball but Sean cannot be putting those hot dogs in that thermos anymore that's just a that's just a crime against hot dog anity like hot dogs as a food do not require a lot of respect but you as a human deserve some self-respect I think bringing in your own hot dog since it is allowed I mean why not do it

But I think that there's a, as a someone who is moving from the young rebellious portion of your life and eventually maturing into the older, weird dad, I got to come up with a new system portion of your life, start thinking about a better way to keep those hot dogs warm that do not require transfer from a thermos to tinfoil. There is a lot of insulated packaging that is available now. You can keep that heat right in there. You get those hot dogs really hot, put them in tinfoil, put it. I don't think you need to put them and keep them in hot water. Because there's nothing grosser than that. And I challenge you to come up with a bun steaming mechanism. And yes, not only do I order in your favor because you are a free and independent agent of chaos,

but also when you have perfected if and only when you have perfected your new hot dog into Dodger Stadium. system, then you and Casey will have those hot dogs together in the upper decks where people like you belong. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Sean, how are you feeling about this split decision? I'm really elated. I felt like the judge really ruled in my favor in order to keep on bringing hot dogs into the stadium. I just have to come up with a, a less obtrusive system than the thermos one. And I'm also going to reflect more on my tall privilege

and also how my actions can cause Casey stress when he's along with the ride for me. I mean, I'm not here to tell you how to bring hot dogs into Dodger Stadium, but I'll go ahead and tell you how to bring hot dogs into Dodger Stadium, 10-gallon hat. I mean, the answer is right there in front of you or right there on top of your head. Casey, how are you feeling about this decision?

I feel okay. I'm glad I don't have to bring in my own hot dogs with some strange thermos contraption set up. So that makes me happy. But I'm also disturbed that if Sean like brings hot dogs in his pockets or something that I'm going to have to eat those in Dodgers Stadium, that's an unsettling thing to think about as well. So I feel okay and I feel seen by the judge.

I'm not going to make you eat pocket dogs, Casey. You will have to sign off on the scheme. And I would like to be kept in the loop. As soon as the Max Funn office reopens, we're having pocket dog day. Everybody brings hot dogs to the office in their pockets. Casey, Sean, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. In a moment, we'll have swift justice. But first, our thanks to Marley J. for naming this week's episode Amicus,

beef. If you would like to name a future episode, be sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. That's where we put out our calls for submissions. You can follow John and I on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. Please do not tweet us corrections about the fact that I should have said John and me. I realize it. Can I just leave it in my drafts then? Yes, please. Just leave it in your drafts. Hashtag JJHO and check out the MaxFund subreddit to discuss this episode. That's at maximumfund.reddit.com. We're on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. John is personally on Instagram at John Hodgman. I am at put dot this dot on. Make sure to follow that Judge John Hodgman account for evidence and other fun stuff. Our producer is the brilliant Jennifer Marmer.

Now Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick. judgment, Lauren says, instead of replacing dirty placemats, my husband turns them over and uses, quote, the B side, unquote. He needs to stop this and just replace the dirty placemat with a clean one. I don't have a problem with what Lauren's husband is doing, Jesse. I think it's pretty reasonable if the placemat isn't that dirty, you can flip it over. I don't care. All I care is that they don't have plac mats that look like 45 RPM record out. albums of hits of the 50s and one of them is the A side and the other is the B side. Then I would be like, get me out of this retro diner.

That's it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at maximum fun.org slash jj-j-o or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org. No case is too small. And remember, it's MaxFunDrive time. Visit Maximumfund.org slash join to become a member of Maximum Fun Fun. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artist-owned shows supported directly by you.