Judge John Hodgman - Exculpa-trophy Evidence

Episode Date: July 22, 2026

If you win "Best Feature" at a film festival, but the festival doesn't give you a trophy, can you make your own trophy? Or is that too cringe? Spouses and filmmakers Kaye and Mariel disagree! Their film THE REBRAND (trailer here) won several film festival awards! But most of the festival organizations did not provide trophies, or any physical representation of the win for that matter. Kaye wants to design and 3-D print her own trophies to commemorate the occasion, and to serve as a reminder that "they like her They really like her!" But, while Mariel is proud of the work they have done and the awards they received, she's also trying to rely less on external validation. Who's right? Who's wrong?  If you want to check out the Obscure Cultural Reference, tap here! Thanks to reddit user u/dihydrogenmonoxidesoup for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! Thanks to Christian Duguay for letting us close the show with "Frisbee Golf (The Legend Of Tom Clutch)" by Cephalopods Are People! Make sure to check out the Valley Heat podcast if you haven't already. Start at episode 1 and enjoy the ride that is this hilarious show! SUBSCRIBE TO THIS PODCAST in APPLE PODCASTS or the RSS FEED ---Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bill of Jesse Thorne. This week, Exculpate Trophy evidence. Kay brings the case against her wife, Mariel. Kay and Mariel are filmmakers. One of their films recently won several festival awards. Some of those awards came with trophies. Most of them did not. Kay wants to design and create custom trophies with her 3D printer. Mariel is opposed. She thinks it's tacky to make your own trophy. Kay says they really did win these awards. She wants tangible items to remind her of their major achievement. Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. I'm like, how many trophies you got? And they're like, seriously, we have an unlimited number of them. I'm like, do you have a golf trophy? They're like, yeah. I'm like, do you have a bowling trophy? They're like, yeah, we do.

I'm like, do you have a Taekwondo trophy? And they, like, brought out five of them. They said, we've got so many trophies. We're not going to stop. I said, please stop. You're scaring me. Anyway, if you want less trophies, go somewhere else. bailiff, Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

Kay and Mariel, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? So help you, God or whatever. I do? I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that unlike me, he is not in the podcasting Hall of Fame. I do.

I do. Judge Hotsman, you may proceed. And I'm over here in Maine looking at you through the camera, Jesse. Look at my friend, Jesse Thorne. And I was just about to say, Jesse, you know what? You started wearing glasses. His time catches up with all of us. You look great in glasses.

You look hot in those glasses, Jesse. And those specs, they're hot. And then you got to for the fact that I'm not in the podcasting Hall of Fame. up in my face. Well. Through the camera into my face here, the solar powder studios of w-E-R-U.org in Orleans, Maine. Wow.

John, I only spit facts. That's true. You know what? You got to face the good with the bad these days. You got to accept that there's good and there's bad. I don't need to be in that Hall of Fame. I don't need that kind of recognition. I would love a trophy, though.

Can I get a trophy? That's what we're here to talk about. We have a trophy. We got a Webby. We got a Webby Award. We, we, that's the problem. We. Mary L. K., you're up there in Montreal.

You recognize that word we? We, no contra. Tre bien. We are going to do a podcast. You, Vue, may be pleased seated, if you wish. Can either of you name the piece of obscure culture that I referenced as I entered the Solar Power Studios of WERU? FM in Orleans, Maine, my summer chambers along here with Joel Mann. Well, what's your guess, Mariel?

that would be the classic Tom Cruise movie Jerry McGuire Wow I'm writing all of that down as anyone can plainly see If you're watching our YouTube channel right now At Judge John Hodgman pod on YouTube And also check out Jesse's hot new specs As well as the wonderful faces of our litigants Mary Ellen Kay As well as my face and there's Joel

Hi Joel Hey judge What do you think is it Jerry McGuire Joel that's not pretty good at me because I have a clue. You don't have any clues. All right, fine. All right. John, my guess is the famous Cuba Gooding Jr. movie Jerry McGuire.

The famous Cuba Gooding Jr. movie Jerry McGuire. You know what? I'm changing. I'm changing it. Yeah. Snow dogs. Snow dogs. I was working really hard to try to remember snow dogs right then. Thank you for jumping in there. That's why you're in the podcasting Hall of Fame. Because you remember all the Cuba Gooding Junior movies. All right, Kay, it is time for me to write down your guess. Can you name the obscure cultural reference that I mentioned as I entered the courtroom?

My guess would be the 2016 single from Charlie X, CX trophy, which samples the scene from Pulp Fiction where they dance for the trophy at Jack Rabbit Slims. At Jack Rabbit's Slims period underline. I've written that all down beautifully. I must say I love that guess. It's very, very specific. Mariel, did you guess Jerry McGuire because there's trophies in that? Is there a trophy in that? Show me the money, I guess.

Money is a trophy, right? Yeah, it was more vibes-based. I actually haven't seen that movie in about 20 years, but that's what came to mind. Both are tremendous guesses. All are tremendous guesses, but they're all wrong. Because the answer is, it is an Instagram post by our friend Dave Hill, the comedian and musician Dave Hill. Dave Hill from before?

Dave Hill from before as he goes, as he often identifies himself on Instagram. Mr. Dave Hill is his Instagram handle. You can find him anywhere. Online and often across the country, touring with rock bands and such. Very funny person. And he was commenting upon one of my very favorite signs.

I thought of this sign as I woke up this morning thinking about this conversation about trophies that we were going to have. because the last time, the last couple of times we performed in Portland, Oregon, I would walk by this sign and take a picture of it because this is very old janky sign on East Burnside Street in Oregon that just says, Trophies Unlimited. And there was a Trophies Unlimited sign. And the sign is still there, although as far as I can tell, Trophies Unlimited itself, has become very limited to the point of being permanently closed for the past several years.

I think it's an art gallery now. because that's what you want, Kay. Is it not? Trophies Unlimited for you? I mean, I'd limit it to the awards I've won, but no limits based on whether it was given to me by the awarding body or not. I refuse to allow you to set limits on yourself, Kay.

Trophies Unlimited is what I order for you. Oh, no, wait a minute. We need to hear the case first. So, Kay, it is you who seeks justice in this fake courtroom. Yes, it's me. indeed this international court of law because you and mariel who is your partner correct yes in in life and in profession in life and in filmmaking yeah and life and in filmmaking you both live in Canada specifically Montreal one of the great cities of the world correct yes yeah we love it here yeah trust me I would

love it there too these days we'll come to a live show here oh oh yeah that's good idea Would we have to do it in French and English? No, no. I've been to a lot of English live podcasts here in Montreal. What was the last one you went to go see? Oh, gosh. I mean, I went to see Welcome to Night Vale here. Oh, yeah.

I went to see the off book podcast. That's like the improvised musical podcast. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, they're great. Neither of them provided simultaneous French translation. No, strangely they didn't. I think that the language police would potentially have an issue with that, but they got away with it.

I think that if we were to do a show in Montreal, we would have a live French translator. That's my thinking. In any case, you're up there in Montreal, and the two of you make horror movies. Tell me all about it. Yeah, we've been making horror movies together for almost 10 years now. We met in film school originally,

and we're kind of two of the only people there who were really passionate about horror films and connected over that, but we're kind of like distant friends, and then after we graduated, we started to get closer and then became best friends and then became inseparable. And, yeah, are now partners in love and in film. And we've made tons of shorts together. And I recently directed my first feature. And that's what's won the awards. What is the name of the feature? It's called The Rebrand.

I love it. Give me a log line. Or as they say in Montreal, lean to log. It's about two canceled lesbian influencers who are hiring a pregnant videographer to document their rebrand as mommy influencers and things get very dark, very fast. Are you familiar with the Quebecois phrase, en fan, we? I don't believe I have. I don't think I've heard that one before. Translation is, hell yeah. That sounds great. Where can I see it?

It's going to be on VOD in North America very soon, like next week. I don't know when this comes out, but it might already be on VOD. According to my notes here, this is scheduled for release in late July, 2026. Then it's already out. Yeah, it's on all major platforms in North America on VOD. Everyone go demand that video on demand. That is my sight unseen. I think it sounds like an amazing story.

And it's not only that, it's an award-winning story. Maryle, how is the work between you and Kay divided? Kay, you're the director, right? Yes. So Kay directed this movie. She wrote it with the lead actor of the film, one of the lead actors, Nancy Webb. And I produced it. Fantastic. And what, look, I've worked in, on the margins of entertainment now for almost 20 years. And I just got a check for $6.49 for being on art. Archer. Yeah, that's right. Jesse's also a SAG-eligible voice actor and perhaps on-camera actor. You should hire him now that he's got those hot specs. He kind of looks like Stanley Tucci's younger nephew. You know what I mean? Thank you. I'll take it gladly. So we look, Jesse and I are a couple of entertainment old hands, Mariel. And one thing that has never become clear to us is what does a producer do?

So that's a great question. And I think it really depends. Like a producer could range from doing everything to doing nothing. So I think it really depends on the movie and on the producer for me. Like producing on Kay's film, we had a very small team of friends. And so it was just planning out all the logistics with Kay, like making all the food for our friends. to be well taken care of while on the set. Kind of like dragging Kay through post-production when she had lost all hope.

It was a two-year post-production process that I was editing it myself. We shot the film in maybe eight days total, like separated out over like about a year and a half. And then post took, yeah, two years. And she really got to the end of her rope. So I was like just keeping her going and I made all the graphics for the film as well. Yeah, you did a great graphics. So kind of everything. I don't know if that's typical for other producers, but for this film, that's what I did.

As far as I can tell, it's a pretty fluid job description, but mostly it's to support the creatives, right? And make the thing go. And congratulations to you both for doing exactly that because indeed, not only did you make a feature film independently, but also it has one. won several awards at various festivals around Canada and the world. So look, I'm looking at a spreadsheet that was provided to us, to this court exhibit A, spreadsheet outlining all festivals we played at and where awards and trophies were won. And I'm not going to talk about the loser festivals that didn't award you even a certificate of participation. But look at this.

Queer Fear Film Festival out of Winston-Salem. North Carolina. Best feature film. Trophy? Yes. Real Out Film Festival, Kingston and Real Out Kingston, Canada, Ontario. Best feature film awarded? Yes. Trophy, yes. This is one I'm excited about. Salem, Horror Film Festival. Salem, Massachusetts.

You're going to win a horror film award. You're going to want to win it. You want to win it in Salem, Massachusetts. Because they got witches there. Yeah, because of the witches, the long history of the witches. And you got an award there, and you got a trophy there too. But here's where you did not get a trophy. So Home Pride Film Festival.

Black Sunday Film Festival. Gay's International LGBT Film Festival. And Renegade Film Festival. All wonderful film festivals, I'm sure. All gave you Best Feature Film. Best Feature and Director, Best Feature. Much to celebrate there. But they're losers in my book because they didn't give you a trophy.

That's how you feel about it, right, Kay? Yeah. I mean, that's kind of how I, I don't see them as losers. I think they're great festivals and we're so happy to have played with them. But we certainly would have appreciated the trophy. It would make things simpler and we wouldn't have to dispute over it. Well, that's, that look. I know that in the entertainment industry, we all have to play the game.

We all have to play nice. I'm here to tell you they're losers. And I don't mind saying so. You're a very gracious, Kay. we appreciate your solidarity yeah yeah no i'm like i wasn't expecting so much immediate well well well look i mean i'm looking here at this photo of the three actual trophies you received and i'd be lying if i didn't point out there's here's a poster for the wonderful film the rebrand it looks great here are those three trophies i'm

going to have you describe them in one moment but then very carefully placed below the poster is a copy of the areas of my expertise by John Hodgman. So you know how to play the game. Oops. Oops. Whoops. Whoops. You know how to play the game and I appreciate that. Why didn't they give you trophies? Why didn't they hand, did they hand anything to you? No, I mean, sometimes they give you like a graphic design laurel that specifically says winner on it, but sometimes you just get the laurel that says official selection. There's no, there's nothing but like an email or a social media posts saying, hey, this is our winners this year. It was the rebrand, but they

don't give you anything to commemorate it. Like sometimes they'll give you like a certificate and that I'm happy with because you can actually print a certificate and hang it on your wall. But when it's... Wait a minute. They make you print your own certificate? What are they giving you a PDF? That's exactly my question. You do print your own certificate sometimes, yeah. Who even has a printer in 2020? Like 30% of America has a printer. 50% of those are out of ink. Jesse, I have a question for you.

As a member of the podcast Hall of Fame. Yeah. What do you, do you get a PDF? Do you get a JPEG? What do you get? John, thanks for asking.

I was real short on trophies in my office. I felt like I had a 25-year career in podcasting. And all I had there was the Metro Santa Cruz Goldie Award. Uh-huh. And they, did give us a it's a nice color printout but i was really excited to be chosen for the podcasting hall of fame and to get a trophy and basically we had a show the day after the podcasting hall of fame dinner yeah and the podcasting hall of fame dinner was in orlando and i was like i am not

going to fly to orlando to have dinner with dr drew and then in the morning try and get back to san francis go for our Judge John Hodgman show. So I sent them my regrets. And I was terrified that that would mean that I would not get a trophy. Like, all I wanted was a trophy. Like, the dinner was fine. I didn't particularly want to meet Dr. Drew. But I was like, please send me a trophy.

And they sent me a trophy like maybe three months later. And I was so excited and relieved. And I went on our friends, Sean and Hayes' podcast, Hollywood Handbook. And it's one of the funniest podcasts. And basically the idea of it is that they're smug Hollywood guys who have all the answers. And I thought, well, I know what will be funny. I'll bring my podcasting Hall of Fame trophy and I'll put it down on the coffee table without saying anything before the show starts. And then just do the whole show with my podcasting Hall of Fame trophy.

I did that. It was great. It was a lot of fun. They're the best. Yeah. And then a few days later. I realized that I did not know where my Podcasting Hall of Fame trophy was.

Oh, no. And I had brought it to, I had brought it over to Earwolf in a tote bag wrapped in a towel. Yeah, that's how you carry, in my car. That's how you carry trophies around, of course. Also in the backseat of my car was a bunch of stuff

that I had to donate to the thrift store. No. And I did an exhaustive search of my home and car and had a total, panic crisis and I was like, I donated my freaking Hall of Fame trophy to the thrift store. It is a big thrift store that I had stopped at. And I was like, there's no way they're going to like find it and give it back to me. This is a catastrophe.

I was catastrophizing left, right and center, like up down all around. And finally, like after maybe 10 days, I mean, I probably spent half an hour talking to my therapist about this in a 50 minute session. I was so upset. Sure. And it was dovetails so perfectly with, like, my ADHD challenges and, like, just my general incompetence in life. I strongly disagree on the latter part, but go on. Thank you.

After a week or so, I just said, I am going to go back to these people whose ceremony I blew off and who sent me this trophy three months after I won it. Yeah. and say, hey guys, is there any chance that I could get another? Sure. And it was so hard to send this email. I was like, I'll pay for it. Like, please. And they said, we cannot send you another trophy. But if you call the trophy store, they will probably make you a new one.

And I couldn't even, I have a bookkeeper that keeps the books for my company, Amity, who you've met John. Yeah. And I couldn't do it myself. I couldn't make the call. So I just, I had a meeting with Amity. And I was like, Amity, would you be willing to call the trophy store for me? And she's like, yes.

And I'm like, and could you order two trophies? A backup? In case I lose. And she's like, yes. So, and I'm like, and don't tell me what it costs. Just keep it secret. You're the bookkeeper. Yeah.

Just if they're $200 a piece, we're just doing it. And that's that. You only get in the podcasting Hall of Fame once. And she, God bless her, she did it for me. And they did send me two new trophies. And I was like, that's fine. I'll just put one on the shelf in my home office and one on the shelf in my office office.

Yeah. For, you know, to impress visitors. And that'll be great. And I got the trophies. And I was putting the one in my home office. on the shelf in my home office. And I saw that the original one had just, I had just put it one shelf. And it's clear.

So I just didn't see it. I just didn't see it was one shelf from where I was looking for it. And I just didn't see it. So now I have three podcasting Hall of Fame trophies. So I have one at home. Yeah. One at the office. And one in a fireproof drawer.

You have one. You have one to maybe share with. your friend, Judge John Hodgman. Yeah. And two backups at that point. So Jesse has emerged as an unexpected expert witness in the power of a thing to have on your desk or on your shelf. Because Jesse, if you had lost the trophy,

if you had left it with Sean and Hayes and they had sold it to the thrift store, which I'm sure they would have done, you still would have been in the Podcast Hall of Fame. No one can take that away from you. The achievement is still there, however intangible, as an expert witness, why was it important to not have one but two, and actually three, physical reminders of your winning a prize? It's something I cannot hold in my heart because I get too uncomfortable, which is why I say it out loud as a joke sometimes to remind myself that it's real.

Yeah. However, when I put that trophy on my windowsill next to my autographed Walton Goggins brand, and vodka, autographed to me by Walton Goggins, my other most treasured possession, I can sit at my desk and look at it and say, Jesse, you worked for 25 years in podcasting, and someone noticed. And I don't even know who votes on these awards. Well, that's a very powerful argument on Kay's behalf, although I've got to say, like, if having the physical thing, Jesse, is somehow a validation that what you've done has meaning and was noticed and makes you legitimate, it's undermined by the fact that I just learned from you that, though I am not in the podcast Hall of Fame, apparently I could ask Amity to call the trophy store to get me one anyway. But that's it. I'm sure that's true.

Kay, how does any of this resonate with you by any chance? It absolutely does. Tell me why having physical trophies for the film festivals that did not give you one would be meaningful to you. I feel quite similarly to Jesse in that I feel I've been working as an artist like or like my entire life in a way. we've been making art since we're children, all of us, but like I feel like I've continued and taken it seriously and done my school in it and all these things. And all throughout that process, I feel pretty much up until my film started going to festivals, I was met with a lot of people telling me I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing. I had a lot of bad experiences in all

throughout grade school, high school, and university of people telling me like I wasn't cut out to be doing what I was doing. Like film professors telling me you're clearly not head out to work in film and all these things. And I feel that seeing that physical award like silences all those voices

that still kind of echo in my head sometimes and reminds me like, no, they weren't right actually. They were wrong in these like degradation against me. And in these different ways that I was sort of told I wasn't capable of doing what I was working so hard to do.

So, Mariel, you just heard Kay's very powerful and emotionally open explanation of why the trophies are meaningful to her. As her partner, both in business and in life, why does she not deserve trophies? I mean, I do think Kay deserves all the trophies that she gets. And she's obviously worked so hard for them and so proud of her. And I also do enjoy a trophy as well, like for the record. I like trophies. And for best feature in a lot of these competitions,

it's often the producer who gets the trophy as much as the director or writer. Absolutely. Like I stand as I think like I stand to gain from trophies as well. You put that on your CV also. Yeah. And it goes on the CV and we do like promote when we win something. I guess I just feel like there's something duplicitous about making a fake trophy that just doesn't sit well with me. It's kind of a gut instinct of like when Kay first asked me this, I think when I was, I think I was folding laundry.

And you were like, how did you feel if I did this? And I just was like, ooh, no. It was a pretty strong reaction that kind of stuck out to me because usually you're like wildly supportive of all the crazy things I suggest. Like when you were like, can I like dig a shallow grave in the yard for a performance piece? I'm like, yeah, for sure. Like, I'm like pretty open. I'm pretty open. So the missing trophies are from the Gays International LGBT Film Festival out of Dublin, Ireland,

the Black Sunday Film Festival in Essex, UK, the So Home Pride Film Festival, and that's it. Those three? Also, actually, the reel-out Kingston Film Festival. I mistakenly said we had a trophy from there, but we swapped it. Got it, got it. So reel out in Kingston, you did not get a trophy there. No, we did not. So what, do you have a 3D printer at home? Yes, yeah. I design and 3-D print a lot of things, like, around the house, and we've, like, made a lot of 3-D-printed, like, jewelry before and a lot of stuff. And I, I've made like 3D printed lamps that kind of look like trophies. So I think I have the skills to do it and I would want to kind of be faithful to the festivals.

Like for example, Black Sunday Film Festival, their logo, their like 2D graphic logo is a skull with a dagger sticking out of it. And so I would make like a three-dimensional skull with the three-dimensional dagger. What are some of your other pitches for these 3D printed trophies? Yeah. So there's, I'm trying to think of what the other festivals are off the top of my head. Well, there's the Gays International LGBT Film Festival in Dublin. Yeah, that one, they have a very classy graphic design with like these diagonal lines on it that's very like modern. So I'd probably pick something that's like kind of a modernist kind of plaque style one with like echoing their graphic design of their laurel that has these beautiful clean diagonal lines on it.

And Kay, did they already provide you with a PNG? They did not. that one, no. We have a PNG for official selection. Yeah, to say we were selected for the festival, but not to say that we won anything at the festival. They got to get their PNG game together. If you're not sending out trophies, send out PNGs. Mary-L, as Kay was describing her designs, you were kind of nodding along there, I noticed. And they sound pretty cool. Is your dispute with Kay's creative vision for the trophies? No, I really have absolute faith in. Kay's like artistic vision for anything that she does, including the trophies.

I know they would be elegant. Like I know they would be on point. Why can't Kay 3D print a picture of not only her own trophy, be it a trophy that the two of you would share? So here's the thing, though, is that like there's nothing duplicitous about being like, here's drawing of my dog that I made and it's in my home. Yeah. Like it may be a little cringe for some people. that there is no, like, there's no duplicitousness. There's no lying. I think that that's the

thing is like, having them implies that someone else made them. But I mean, I wouldn't lie if someone asked me. I know, but then you have to admit that you did a cringe thing. I'm open to that. I mean, he's open to that. I'm less open. Mariel, what's an example in your life of a time someone has come to your home or office and asked who made the trophies? I mean, I, our friends were there like two weeks ago and I think they asked. They asked who made them? I think they said, oh, did they, did you get these from the festival? Like, did they ask like where they came from? Right. Because we didn't attend all those festivals in person. Some of them were mailed to us. Some of them are mailed. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm fine with saying like, well, we won this award, but they didn't

give us a trophy. So this is just to commemorate it. But I want to go back for a moment to a piece of evidence. These are the three trophies, physical trophies that you were awarded. And if we could see that again, please. And it's also, I want to see again that beautiful cover of the areas of my expertise by John Hodgman available. I hope where paperbacks are sold. And in most thrift stores. Yeah, exactly. Right next to, right next to Jesse Thorne's podcast Hall of Fame trophies and a, and a pillow of his head. Kay and Mariel, I've thrown a lot of love your way

because I have such tremendous affection for you. I should recuse myself because how can I choose between my friends? But I'm going to say this. Are you prepared to take something of a note here? Yeah. Yeah, that's why we're here. Are you familiar with a longstanding ruling in the court

that the difference between a collection and a hoard is a display case. I'm quite familiar with that, and I've told Mary all about that before. Yes, I remember you telling me about the display case. Yeah. Right now, what I'm not seeing

as a display case. I'm seeing a very... This is your basement work area, right? Your studio, the place for you to do your works. Yeah. And I'm not... I'm just saying that there's a... I'm an unhealthily tidy person.

I love tidiness. And I'm going to say this is just on the verge of getting a little untidy in here. And if you were to add more trophies, I'm a little concerned that it's going to look a little less collectiony and a little bit more pile of trophies, if you know what I mean. What is your plan if you were to print out more for making sure that this is going to be a visually appealing situation rather than. a bunch of 3D printed stuff in a pile. I actually was thinking this as well. I have wanted a trophy case for the trophies we already have for some time. And we actually have two other trophies from previous films in years past.

So I feel like five trophies is enough to fill a case even if we don't print more. So that's the long I've been talking about for a long time. And Mariel, you've been a bit on the fence about if we want a trophy case or if that's too vain kind of to have a case dedicated to our trophies. Like, it's a piece of furniture dedicated to trophies. And for me, I'm like, heck, yeah. But I think you have been a bit more on the fence about having a dedicated trophy case in the house. Kay, please use the official term, enferre, yes.

Enferi. Whereas, Mariel, do you feel enferre non about a display case for the trophies? These trophies or any more that might come? Because I'm sure you're going to win more trophies down the round. down the road. I would like to win more trophies and I would like them not to be in a pile. Again, like the display case is not my favorite and I think we're kind of getting to like the real heart of the issue for me, which is that I don't know if we should be investing

so much in external validation because it's so hard being filmmakers and it's so hard keeping your morale going that I think we need to challenge ourselves to like to build that validation from within. So I think when we start talking display case, when we start talking like making fake trophies, that to me is like walking away from from just being happy at the accomplishment itself. and believing in ourselves. But Mariel, you're a producer. Your job is to take the burden of self-promotion and self-aggrandizement off of the talent and on to yourself. It's like me asking, it's like me asking Amity to call the trophy store.

Yeah. If I call the trophy store, it's pathetic. If someone that works for me calls the trophy store, then I'm a big time. You have to promote yourself in a creative endeavor, and it always is the worst. And to have a producer

is to have someone whose job it is, they have the cover of, this is my job, and that gives the artist the cover of, look, I'm just a modest self-effacing person, but my producer insisted that we have trophies on the wall. You're making a great point, but I think you've missed that there's a distinction between the professional and the personal, and that can get mixed up when you're working with your spouse for a long time.

And so I think if this was a public office, I would probably go for it. And I do like to promote us. I spent the weekend making social media graphics for the rebrand and being totally shameless about it. Yeah. So I'm definitely into doing some shameless self-promotion, but I think it's because it's our home. So your argument is that this is a private space, not a public space. This is a space for your relationship, not for client-facing meetings or anything like that. Correct.

There's no clients in the home. And it would also be your argument that this is still your home, right? And when you're talking about decorating a home, it's a, it's, you both have, whether one's the producer and one's the director or whatever, you're both co-equal cohabitants of the home and you both should have a say. And whether or not the decoration gives you the ick or not. Correct. Mariel, if the two of you win more awards, including trophies that are six. sent to you by the organizing committee, not 3D printed in your home. Will you display those or is there, do you want a moratorium on all future trophies,

homemade or official? I am open to a display situation. Okay. Also, because I agree with you about the hoard and not having a horde of things, I like the idea that it's organized. That appeals to me a lot. And then all the like objects go together. So I'm definitely open to some sort of a lighted display case upstairs.

I don't know. But they've got to go somewhere. You've discussed shelves before. I think you were more interested in shelves than a case. Shelves would be more high speed. But I'm open. If they're real. If they're real trophies, they can come into the house for sure.

Shelves are things that a lot of normal, unvane people do have in their home that you don't seem to have on this wall right now. John, you know that Carly Simon song, you're so vain. You probably have shelves. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think, you know, I was doing a rewatch of the films of Peter Weir and I watched Witness and I was reminded, oh, yeah, even the Amish had shelves. Those weren't too proud for them. Right now, it looks like the three trophies are mounted fairly precariously atop. It looks like a makeup mirror or something, right?

Yeah, it's actually a vanity mirror. You might call it now that you think of it. Yeah. A lighting around. An artist makes connections. Perfect, a vanity mirror, indeed. Kay, would you like the trophy case or shelf or display area to be upstairs? It would be my preference to display them upstairs.

I do recognize that a case upstairs might be difficult with the space that we have, but we do have shelves upstairs with like Urios on them, like little like different figures and stuff. And I feel like we could swap those out for trophies potentially and have kind of an Easter egg hunt of trophies throughout the decor in our upstairs because I think there's such aesthetic trophies. There's no reason they couldn't serve as decoration as well. How do you feel about that, Mariel?

The idea of hiding the trophies throughout the house in plain sight like Teltale heart style. I've never considered it before, and you know what? I think I'm open to that. Whoa. I think that could be interesting. Yeah. How do you feel, Mariel, about the use of the word aesthetic as an adjective, which apparently

is a Gen Z thing? Aesthetic as an adjective? Like it's very aesthetic instead of this is an blank aesthetic. Oh, I'm in favor. mainly because I don't want Gen Z to think that I'm uncool. Yeah, that's right. Hashtag iconic. Kay, I think the Mariel did make an interesting point, though, about being hesitant to become dependent upon external validation awards and trophies and that sort of thing.

Mariel, what is your concern there? What is the risk to an artist of becoming to depend upon awards? I mean, I think it can get to the point. Where if what if you don't get a trophy next year? What if you go to the, you submit a film to a festival that previously gave you a trophy? And then now you no longer have one for your next film. Like if you've already put so much into that as a, like as validation that your work is good or worth seeing, then if the absence of validation, it could really depress you and it could even prevent you from making more films or

making more art. So I think the risks are not, not negligible. There's no risk in the validation that these awards represent because y'all won the awards. So isn't making them physical a way of reminding yourself that you have received validation? Isn't it validating? I'd say, yeah, it's validating to look and see the physical validation. Otherwise, I can look at that spreadsheet and see on the spreadsheet that it says, yes, one award. But I don't want to look at that spreadsheet every day. I'd rather just be reminded by a nice, beautiful thing in the home than to have to, like, open up a spreadsheet or watch my own films again and remember which awards that it went again.

Wait, wait, wait. You don't want to look at a spreadsheet every day? What kind of 55-year-old dad are you? Oh, wait a minute. You're a young person. I apologize. I do want to look at the spreadsheet. I enjoy looking at it. Yeah, well, you're the spreadsheet. You're the producer. You're supposed to want to look at spreadsheets. Yeah, I like that.

For me, that kind of does the trend. That's enough for you. But I think, I think looking at a trophy that we really want, like, it absolutely makes me feel good. I'm like, yes, we won that. It's great. The unicorn horn has blood on it. That's so cool. Just love everything about it. And I have no problem. with that. But then I think if you're looking at something that you made yourself that wasn't really real, like the award is real, but that you know you had to make it because the lack of trophies in your life is depressing you, then it's just going to be like a loop because you're going to remember that you had to make it yourself because they didn't mail it to you. And I feel like that it's less of that, like, clear honest connection of like, I see that thing, that thing makes me happy. Like, it's kind of loaded.

Like, psychologically, I think there's a lot going on there. Look, I've been pretty pro-print-out your own trophies so far, but I think Mariel makes a pretty interesting case. What is your response? I think it wouldn't depress me to go, oh, I had to print that trophy myself. I think it would excite me to go, yeah, I won that award. Like, I think that the depression comes from forgetting that I've done things and that having done what I've done matters and is enough

because I think I can get really obsessed with trying to make more things. I'm worried, when's my next film going to come out? When can I make the next thing? When's the next thing, the next thing? And so I think some people are at risk of resting on their laurels, but for me, I'm much more at risk of the opposite of, like, pushing ahead too fast without, like, taking the time and not burning myself out and not, like, forgetting about other important aspects of life.

So I think in a way it would be like a soothing thing to look and see, no, you won all of those awards, not just the three that are sitting on top of the mirror there. You won all those awards. They're all in that case. And maybe that means you don't have to burn yourself out trying to write a new screenplay in a month because that's like crazy. Don't do that. Like take some time and give it the time it needs. And I think it wouldn't depress me so much as sues me. Yeah. You know, you wouldn't have to write a new screenplay in a month because you'd be so busy printing out 3D awards for yourself. Like, genuinely, yeah, like it's a hobby, 3D printing. So sometimes I do think I should spend more time on hobbies than on constantly working on the next film project. Mariel, you heard Kay earlier give a very heartfelt explanation about why these quote unquote missing trophies are meaningful to. her, the sense of being seen. She's very lucky to have you a person who truly appreciates her, but why deny her the physical representation of these achievements if she wants them, if it'll make her happy to see them, even if it makes you feel a little cringe?

That's a hard question. You phrased it so well. Why deny her? I'll say that that question was written for me by Jennifer Marmer. So credit where credit is 3D print her a trophy, please. It's very well written. She definitely deserves a trophy. I mean, I don't think I would ever truly deny K anything that she wanted. But I think she also wants me to be as excited about things as she is. And I think that there is where I'm like,

I just don't think I can fully get behind it, like, emotionally, spiritually. And I don't think I can, like, be on that bandwagon with her. So I don't think I would say, like, you can't do it. But it would be like, I don't know if I can really jump on this with the same excitement that I do for other of our, like, creative endeavor and kind of not fall into that for me. You both make incredibly good points. You're both so incredibly likable. And I really want to support both of you. this is a very challenging one to make a decision on.

And I really wish you the best of luck in finding a podcast that will help you. But I'm getting out of here. I'm going to take a moment, go into my summer chambers here at WERU, and consider my decision. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom. Mariel, how are you feeling right now about your chances? I would say I feel like the judge is leaning in Kay's favor.

That's just how I feel. I don't know if that's just neuroses on my part, though. How about you, Kay? How are you feeling? I feel decent about my chances, but I also know that sometimes these things can be surprising in the judgment phase. So I'm very open and interested to what John has to say, because I think he probably has some very good insight on all this on the medallion status of it all.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment. Judge John Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case. What's going on with you? Well, Jesse Thorne, as you know, I am the co-creator with you and co-host of the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm also the co-creator and co-host of another wonderful Maximum Fun podcast called E Pluribus Motto. With the great Janet Varney? Yes, indeed. wherein the great Janet Varney and I discuss the various official state

mottoes, mascots, munchies, monsters, and more of all of these 50 allegedly United States and Commonwealths and districts and territories and so forth. We are wrapping up our season with three wonderful states just yesterday. As of this recording, we dropped our episode on Ohio. coming up next, Ohio's arch-nemesis, Michigan, and it all rounds out with some surprising facts that I had to learn about North Dakota. E. Pluribus motto, it's a lot of fun. We have a wonderful listener base,

but we would love for you to be a part of it. Please go to maximum fun.org and look up E. Pluribus Motto. We enjoyed a lot, and I hope you will too. Jesse, what's going on in your life? Well, this past week on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, We released a wonderful interview with the creator and co-hosts of the wonderful television program Taskmaster. That is on the Bullseye with Jesse Thorne YouTube page right now, as well as in the podcast feed. So if you're not already a Bullseye subscriber, go subscribe.

And I hope that if you come for the Taskmaster interview, you will stick around for this week's shows, which are with the legendary feminist artist Judy Chicago, who created a piece called The Dinner party that John, you may have seen at the Brooklyn Museum in one of the most legendary pieces of feminist art in the history of the United States. She also talked with me about her work in pyrotechnic art, which is a very important part of her practice. Wow. And also, John began on the same block as my therapist's office. Oh, how about that? Yeah, isn't that cool? You're part of history. Yeah, exactly. But Judy Chicago and, of course, our pal, the legend, David Wayne, who has a new movie in theaters

with his pal, Ken Marino, David Wayne, an in-depth conversation, you know, of course, the legend from the state and the director

of Wet Hot American Summer, among many other wonderful and hilarious films. So make sure that you come for Taskmaster and you subscribe to Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, whether it's on YouTube,

on podcast, or both. Because you know what, John? What? It might not have any trophies, but I think It is good.

I agree, and I'll get you a trophy, Jesse. Have Amity call one and get one for both of us. Let's get back to the show. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. I love horror movies, not merely as sort of fun midnight movies to enjoy with friends, but also as a major part of independent filmmaking, a place where young and other aspiring filmmakers who are outside the system could scrape money together

to make something that had a chance of being seen and not only a chance of being seen at festivals but being seen in movie theaters, you know, both enjoying artistic and commercial success. And the artistic success is usually not negligible because it's a place where young and aspiring filmmakers who are outside the system can try out new narrative techniques, can push visual storytelling

into different areas and really move the ball forward. Even, you know, if you look at the films of John Carpenter, which, you know, were made completely independently, even down to him making the beep-boop music on his synthesizer. You know, those horror movies create a visual language which other kinds of movies emulate all the time and very rarely giving horror movies their aesthetic due credit.

Is that using aesthetic as an adjective? I don't have time for that argument right now. The other important thing about horror movies is particularly now, it's a place where not only people outside the filmmaking system, but underrepresented artists in general can work in, not only work their way into an industry and self-sustain as artists, but also offer provocative themes and insights that other movies don't show. Horror plays in all of these areas of belonging, not belonging. who is accepted into society, who is not accepted into society, what is the nature of society? I love it.

I cannot wait to see the rebrand as soon as it's on video and demand where I am here in Maine, which means I'm probably going to have to come here to the solar-powered studios of WERU and wait for the facts to come through before I can see it. And I'm really excited

that you are both at this stage of your career where you are getting recognition and indeed golden bloody unicorns as your due credit for the work that you doing, the blood sweat and extra blood that horror movie makers put into their work, you deserve it. Now, I also get it that trophies can be a little bit embarrassing. My wife, whole human being in her own right, just retired from 30 years of teaching at the same high school in New York City, very excited about the new chapter, a lot of ambiguity to navigate as well. Part of that ambiguity to navigate is that she did get indeed get a engraved

lucite slab honoring her service that as soon as we arrived in Maine after the last day of school, the first run to the dump, she put it in the car saying, I'm throwing this away. And I was like, look, it's your, these are your laurels, these are your flowers. You can do whatever you want with them. Just don't let me know about it. Like, don't throw them away in front of me. That's personal to you. But it's like I feel like you deserve recognition for the work that you did.

And I also appreciate that having a big loose side slab talking about it can be a little bit cringy to display or keep or even bury in a shallow grave outside, which had been my other suggestion. Display cases of trophies can be and be cringy, indeed. It does verge on an area of self-celebration, potentially, where you start looking like Larry King to some people. People whose offices or homes are encrusted with awards, plaques, and other celebrations of self, it tends to be a little bit spooky to go into those spaces and a little bit weird. And maybe in a horror movie kind of way, maybe there's a plot there for someone who has a room full of trophies. So I definitely feel what you're saying, Mariel, and I also really feel what you're saying in terms of the perils of

becoming dependent upon approval, dependent upon accolades, or even of attention, if you become too focused on it, and it is hard not to. It is equally hard to not do things in order to just get the attention rather than do the work that you should be doing. This applies as much to getting trophies from film festivals as it is like, why didn't the thing I post yesterday get as many likes as it got as I got five years ago or whatever? What do I have to do in order to get that attention again? That's a dangerous place for an artist to be. And while I agree with Jesse wholeheartedly, that as a producer, your job is to take the heat off of your creative partner by doing the promotional work by doing that sort of grotty, grimy business of getting publicity and

and singing praises of yourself and your partner and taking that onus off of your creative partner. It's equally the job of the producer, I think, to remind Kay and yourself of why you're doing the work and what is the right work to do. So these are all meaningful warnings to absorb and think about and process. as you try to fulfill what ultimately my ruling is going to be, which is this. I do think that there is something different between receiving a 3D printed award, 3D printed by a governing body in Salem, Massachusetts,

versus 3D printing your own award for one that is missing. I think it's profoundly important, Kay, that you feel fully, the achievement that you and Mariel have accomplished together. And I completely appreciate why it would be important to have statuettes for those film festivals that gave you the best feature award, but were too much of a loser film festival to print out something for you to take home. My first ruling is against these film festivals. Give them something.

Give them a certificate. Don't send them a JPEG. the next question is okay whether or not you should correct their error and with great respect, Mariel and with certain caveats, I'm going to say yes, you should. It is very important

to you to have a little token to symbolize and physicalize and to stetize is that how it's used? I don't know anymore. Sure. Why not? Representing that these film festivals that didn't have

their act together to send you something. And yet, it does, these things will have an asterisk appended to them. I think that it's important that you listen to your producer and say, the things that we display should be the things that we were actually awarded. The things, and those things should be displayed, and they should be displayed on a shelf with proper lighting in a workplace environment in your basement. No offense. I think the idea of hiding them around the house is fun.

I think a trophy case feels a little bit too vain to me. Those trophies that you already have do need to be on a shelf in your workplace so they don't fall on someone's head when you're trying to close a deal or whatever. And they should be in a pride of place. They should be in a good place, right? But then I think it is okay for UK to print up the three missing awards in a smaller stature and they could be on a separate shelf

behind an ominous black curtain that you can every now and then pull back and look at and that Mariel is never allowed to see because that is for your sense of accomplishment and pride and only for the eyes that you feel deserve to see that. Maybe that would be Mariel after a period of time. separate shelf, smaller place, maybe, maybe in the back of a closet, maybe behind a false door behind a closet that goes down to a creepy basement, a sub-basement that you didn't even know was there.

Something horror movie appropriate. Maybe you can hide them around the house and see if Mariel even finds them a place where you can enjoy them, but that don't get confused with the physical trophies that you actually got, as frankly, honestly. I don't, nothing against Salem. But, you know, make a headstone. Don't 3D print it. We know what a 3D printed thing looks like. Make it look good. Go to Trophies Unlimited. Call the trophy store.

This is the sound of a trophy. And I can't deny the fact that you like me. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. On your way out, Kay, how are you feeling about these trophies in this new a trofereri shroud. I'm honestly super excited because it is an amazing hobby project to do. I'm like really

psyched. I've been wanting to make some little miniature displays to like hide in the home. So this is like great like to start that project. I want to make a tiny cinema that goes into a bookcase and you look through the door and you can see like movies playing on it. So this is like a good easier start than like incorporating the electronics on that. Ariel, how are you feeling? I feel actually great. I think this ruling, I'm so I can't believe we didn't think of it ourselves because I do want Kay to have her validation. And I am also happy about not mixing and matching what's real and what's not real. I feel like very calmed and soothed.

I like the idea of you guys turning your entire home into the Museum of Jurassic Technology. Doesn't matter what's real and what's not real. It's art. Maybe we'll finally make a secret passageway in our rentals, just like you always wanted. That'd be great. Okay, Mariel, thanks for joining us at the Judge John Hodgman podcast, and congratulations on the film. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is now in the books. Our thanks to Redator Dehydrogen monoxide. Dry hydrogen monoxide soup, I believe that is, Jesse. For naming the, well, show off. For naming this week's episode, Exculpate Trophy, evidence, join the conversation over the maximum fund subreddit. The maximum fund, of course, R-slash maximum fun. There's always a lively discussion of every episode there, as well as the big posts for

names of episodes. We always enjoy those. And I will take the most awkward puns you've got coming. should be legal puns ideally, like exculpatory evidence becoming exculpatory evidence. But however sweaty and stretchy that pun is, that will definitely get my eye. They're all fun over there. Go over to Reddit.com slash R slash Maximum Fun and join the conversation.

You can, of course, find the visual evidence from the program at maximum fund.org. and on our Instagram, which is Judge John Hodgman, you can find video from our episodes on TikTok, so make sure and subscribe to us on TikTok and on Instagram as well. Also full episodes on YouTube. Whose tube? Use tube. Follow and subscribe there.

We also have stuff that you can only see in video, such as this week, apparently the hilarious interactions between John and Joel, while I went downstairs to go to the bathroom. Yeah, Joel and I had a little chat about a gas station hot dog etiquette while you were in the bathroom. So you can check that out over there at YouTube at Judge John Hodgman pod or just go to YouTube and search Judge John Hodgman. Please subscribe to the YouTube channel because that helps people not only you, but other people find the podcast. As well, you can leave a comment and perhaps be selected as YouTube comment of the week.

This week is at Sarah Paro, 3988. That is their username. I recognize that name. It was from our most recent episode counter argument in which a couple is arguing over whether or not to leave bowls of hot soup hanging off the counter.

And Sarah Paro suggested their own innovative solution to picking up dirty dishes from the counter. Sarah Paro says, quote, I just installed a basket with chains over my sink

to throw my dishes into Frolf style. Jesse Thorne. Frolfe style. I'm familiar with Fralph. It's a portmanteau of Frisbee and Golf. Presby Golf or Fralph. I called it Frolf a few times on Judge John Hodgman and Jordan Jesse Goh.

And Fralphers got mad at me for not calling it disc golf. Yeah. Or golf. You know, when you last visited with me up here in Maine, we went around to various stores and places. And every one of them was like, oh, I love Jesse Thorne. As I've said, many a time, the whole peninsula is horny for Thorn. One place I did not take you to, of course, sadly, was the step-back disc golf. It is Blue Hill Main's own fronfing course.

And I didn't take you there because my concern was that if Mainers saw Jesse Thorne playing disc golf, they'd get too horny for thorny at that point. It would be too much. The whole economy would shut down. stepbackdisc golf.com. You ever go there, Joel? No. Okay, great. Thank you very much, Joel.

You're welcome. John, have you ever heard the legend of Tom Clutch, the Frisbee Golf song from our Max Fun Sister podcast, Valley Heat? I confess I have not. Christian, the creator of Valley Heat, is also a very gifted musician. Valley Heat is a show that is presented as a neighborhood show for the equestrian district, the Rancho Equestrian District of Burbank, California, which is a neighborhood where you're allowed to ride horses around.

Yeah. And it has a very rich and amazing world. It is one of the most magical podcasts ever created. Very proud it's part of Max Von. And there is a song called Disc Golf, parentheses, The Legend of Tom Clutch. And it is about a man who made a hole in one in for all. and it is one of the greatest things in history.

So I'm going to encourage everyone to go to YouTube. In fact, on our way out, we can probably get permission from Christian and the cephalopods to play a little bit of Frisbee Golf, the legend of Tom Clutch. Well, since we're on our way out, why don't you read the credits? Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman, this episode engineered by Archetype Studios in Montreal. Megan Razadi runs our social media, the podcast edited, by AJ McKeon, our video editor, Daniel Spear, our producer, is Jennifer Marmer.

All right. Swift Justice, John. Oh, yeah. Here's something from Enna. I just need the judge to know he's wrong about Boggle. It is, in fact, the best board game. The letter orientation is part of the challenge with love, the person who argued that leftover soup should be flushed down the toilet.

Wow. Anna, you are officially the monarch of the hottest of takes, suggesting that soup should be flushed down the toilet and that boggle is the best board game. Now, I don't like boggle because I like Scrabble. I like making words with intention and also I like making words where the letters all face the same way. And in Boggle, they don't. You say that that's part of the fun. I say that's part of the horror. But I will say in both cases, you have to acknowledge Boggle is not a board game. It is a shake-up a bunch of dice game. And if you're going to shake up a bunch of dice, why aren't you playing Farkel. You ever play Farkel, Joel?

Wordle. Okay. Anyway, Farkel is a dice game. Wirtle is a word game. Neither of them are board games. Board games are on boards. Sorry about that, Anna. Keep coming at me with your hottest of takes. I want all of your hottest of takes. Everyone within the sound of our voices. Please, we need disputes. That's what makes the show go. So send us your disputes, your hot takes, your controversial opinions. Even if it's something we just use in the docket like saying, Boggle is a board game. We'll have a discussion about it. Should you charge your family and friends for use of your vacation home? That's one that maybe some people have some opinions about. If you don't like your birthday gift,

should you explain so to the giver so that you can return it? Or should you keep it for a year, never wear it and instead bring it to the tree of life thrift shop here in Maine and just drop it off? If someone asks to switch seats with you on the airplane, do you do it and does it matter if children are involved. What is better on a hot summer day? Jesse, here's one for you. What is better on a hot summer day? An ice cream cone or a popsicle? Well, ice cream is better than popsicles, but if you're talking about being outdoors and it's very hot, then it is going to be a popsicle. Yeah, I want to hear from those popsicle monsters who like popsicles better than ice cream, particularly when Bagadus lunch is serving its soft-served twirl of vanilla and pistachio.

Ooh, that's good stuff. So send us your hot takes, your would you rather, all your controversial opinions at maximum fund.org slash jjaho. Indeed, John, no matter what the dispute is, go to maximum fund.org slash jj.O and submit it to us. No case too big or too small. Maximumfund.org slash jjah-h-o. If you're on the fence, just go there and send it in.

All right. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. All right, and that's Paul Robinson's Frisbee golf course on starting to... Oh, there's more. All right, and that's Paul Robinson's business... Okay, it's going to go for a while. Oh, this is a big file. There's a new world.

How long is this song? There's a new world. Oh, this thing keeps going? They started golfing with Frisbeys. They started golfing with those plastic discs. Boy, it made you feel free. Oh, Frisbee Golf. Take me home. Maximum Fun.

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