Judge John Hodgman - Fitness for the Prosecution

Episode Date: June 12, 2013

The plaintiff, Melissa, wants her boyfriend Henry to participate in an obstacle course event with her best friends so they can share a bonding experience. Henry objects on numerous fronts!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, fitness for the prosecution. Melissa brings the case against her boyfriend Henry. She's asked him to participate in an obstacle course event with her best friends. Melissa thinks this is one of the best ways for her significant other and her friends to bond. Henry disagrees. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Now, I'm not going to point any moral. I'll leave that for yourself. Maybe you're still walking. You're still talking. I'd like to keep your health. Every time I read the papers, Bailiff Jesse, that old feeling comes on. We're waist deep in the big muddy, and the big bailiff says, shut your pie hole. Jesse, swear I feeling comes on We're waist deep in the big muddy And the big bailiff says Shut your pie hole, Jesse swear I'm in Please rise and raise your right hands Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth

And nothing but the truth So help you God or whatever I do Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling Despite the fact that he has no contact With his wife's friends Although his wife's best, although his wife's best friend is Beyonce Knowles.

I do. Yes. Very well. Judge Hodgman? To be honest, it is not legal for me to have contact with Beyonce Knowles anymore. That's part of the reason. Melissa, Henry, do I have your names correct? Yes.

Yeah. All right. For an immediate summary judgment in your favor, can one of you name the piece of culture I referenced as I entered the courtroom? Most unfortunately not. No, I cannot. Would it help you if I told you that the name of the thing was in the thing that I said? The big city? What?

I didn't say anything. Waste Deep in the Big Muddy. Oh, the Big Muddy. Pete Seeger's song. Famous song about soldiers marching into a river and drowning. Played on the Smothers Brothers during the Vietnam War and

considered to be a not so very veiled comment on LBJ's policy of escalation. Yes, understood. Get your Smothers Brothers history down, guys! Sorry, sorry, Judge. Veiled on DVD. So, I brought it up because of the word mud.

It's really the only connection there is. Okay. Yeah. Fair enough. hot, styrophobic, sweltering room in Los Angeles when I was actually in studio with Bailiff Jessie, as I am now, that a woman who had chronic Lyme disease wanted to do a muddy obstacle course, and her husband did not want her to for her health. And I said, shut up, dummy.

Let her do what she was going to do. And I hope she survived. was going to do. And I hope she survived. Now, Melissa, you want your husband, Henry. Boyfriend. Excuse me. Yeah. You may not have noticed that I actually accidentally married you. Is that legally binding?

It is. Where are you guys located? San Luis Obispo. Right. So you're in California too. So I'm in California. You're in California. I read a lyric from a Pete Seeger song. That means you're legally married.

I think that's how my parents got married. So your boyfriend, not even your husband, your boyfriend, you want him to run a mud running obstacle course with a bunch of your friends from college or whatever. I do not even just from college. These are some of my best friends. But I just moved back down here a few years ago. And so they all live in San Francisco. So you're from San Francisco? Well, we're actually both from this area. Okay. So but I live in San Luis Obis. But I lived in San Luis Obispo.

You're in San Luis Obispo. Yes. Mm-hmm. And I wish I had known that because then I would have quoted a couple of Mountain Goat songs coming in. But that's another story. So tell the listeners of this podcast and your judge what this mud contest is. Well, this is a local event, so it's not as large scale. Oh, there won't be any professional mud runners?

No, I'm not sure if that's a thing. He shouldn't be concerned that he's going to have to compete with the best mud runners in the world. No, absolutely not. It's a mud fun run. Yeah, it's a fairly small event, local just to San Luis Obispo. It's a charitable event. I don't care about that.

Describe what it is. It's, you know, obstacle course. Everyone, listen, there are a lot of excuses that people use to engage in sports. I've heard them all. If you think charity is going to be more meaningful to me than exercise, forget it. Well, for Henry, maybe it should be more meaningful because one of the people that it benefits is an organization he's a member of. Which is what?

The Bike Coalition in San Luis Obispo. The Bike Coalition? Okay. It's a coalition of sentient bicycles. They're trying to take over the town. Indeed. So, Melissa, just describe for me, before we get into the charitable aspects of this and the other ways you're going to try to guilt this guy into doing something he doesn't want to do. Describe for me what this event is.

Well, it's a 5K run through, part is through mud and through the Laguna Lake, but then there are just different obstacles. Through the lake? Well, just, you know, not very deep, but through a local lake, yes. Wait a minute. If it's a lake, it can't, it has to be a certain depth. Otherwise, it's a puddle. Right. I think the parts they would have us go through, probably for safety reasons, won't be.

So you're not going through the middle of the, probably for safety reasons, won't be swimming. We won't be swimming through it. We'll be wading through parts of it. All right. Wading through a lake is the most disgusting thing a human can do. There are, I know there's some, you know, the Great Wall, things you have to climb over, some different obstacle course type things. Maybe there are Vikings at one point that you have to fight to get to the finish line. Wait a minute, wait a minute. This is the nerd jock convergence. Right. This is exercise plus LARPing. Costumes are encouraged, if that helps.

What kind of costumes people wear well it's near halloween so i think pretty much anything goes but no no specificity is a soul of narrative don't just say you know costumes tell me uh have you done this before have you done i've never participated have you ever watched it i have and I see a lot of superhero-themed costumes, frankly. Give me a second. What are we talking about? DC, Marvel, Atlas heroes? What? Well, if it were my preference, I'd probably go with X-Men and Marvel. Is that what people wear, or is that what you would wear?

I've seen people wear those. Tell me one costume that someone wore at this thing that you saw with your eyes. Super Superman, who's DC, I know. You're difficult. I'm'm sorry just listen to the questions i'm asking i don't ask these things frivolously well i do nothing to do with the case so some people dress as some people dress as superman yes any martian man hunters not that I've seen, but I can keep an eye out. Any, any, any brother power, the geek. No.

Any prez, the teenage president. No. All right. Get ready. You laugh, Henry. That might be what I assign you to wear.

So, all right. So it's fun. It's fun times. Fun times for all. Yes. You pay a certain amount of money to go run through the mud. How do they make sure that there's mud?

They make it? Yeah. They build this obstacle course themselves. And are these people carpenters? Do they know what they're doing? Yeah. And this will be the fourth year it's happened. So I'm guessing they've worked, you know, some of those kinks out.

Okay. And so you've got to climb a wall. You've got to fight some fake Vikings. Yeah, they try to keep it a little bit secretive. They don't want to let you know everything they're going to do in a year. Is that your explanation for why you're not answering my direct questions? That would be. Yeah.

I know some. Last year they had something involving jumping from lily pads that were floating in the water. Not actual lily pads, though. No, not actual lily pads. Rafts in the shape of lily pads. Right. It's like, it's a fancy.

Coming of a cargo net. Cargo nets. Okay, I got you. So it's like a combination of a 5K fun run, a LARP and a ropes, and a comic book convention. Yes. All right. What's not to love, Henry? Okay, well, so my objections are maybe three, maybe fourfold.

Okay. First of all is the general atmosphere of what i assume the event will have uh i imagine it will be kind of uh festival like oh right okay yeah right uh with lots of people in costumes taking taking lots of like group pictures and like getting pumped up and high fives and lots of overcoming of obstacles. Oh yeah. And personal barriers. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Obstacles, personal and muddy. And you know, for me, for my own's, it's not the kind of atmosphere that I thrive in. Sure. You're like me. You hate joy. It's not the joy so much. It's, it's all the, like the group activity, the expectations of,

uh, fun and the sustained, uh, zaniness of an event that involves, you know, costumes and mud and people. So that's my first objection. You know that I was so, so against you in all of that, that I was just making fun of you. And I can reveal that now because, A, I think you knew it. And, B, if you didn't know it, you have a problem. And, C, because you almost turned me around at the very end.

Because I was like, yeah, all that's, like, this guy is just a nasty misanthrope. But then you said the sustained zaniness. And then I was like, a cold chill went down my spine. I'm like, yeah, wait a minute. He's got a point. Yeah, it sounds like a nightmare, right? Sustained zaniness. Because there is nothing worse than forced zaniness.

And so part of the case that you're going to have to make is that this is intolerable zaniness. Extrinsically provable, intolerable zaniness over your own just dark withered heart. Being unable to tolerate joy and give your girlfriend pleasure for one simple thing. Grant her one simple wish. Seriously. So, yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks, Judge.

Those are a lot of my objections that... By the way, your attitude is overruled. No. Okay, I understand. So here's the thing, though. You yourself admit that you assume that it is this way. Have you ever... You have not participated in one of these before.

No. No, I've not. Have you ever witnessed one've not participated in one of these before? No, no, I've not. Have you ever witnessed one before? Only digitally. So you have been looking at YouTube videos late at night getting angry? Yeah, that's fair to say. Have you been looking at YouTube videos of this particular event before? Yes, just last night. We did watch one last night.

So, and did you send the video for me to look at? That would have been good for him, but... No, I last night. We did watch one last night. So, and did you send the video for me to look at? That would have been good for him, but... No, I did not. It's interesting because it's very... This would have helped your case, I think. But I think it can be assumed that, you know, any one of these mud-based obstacle events are like the other. You know, people form these groups to do as a group

and to overcome these obstacles as a group, and they take lots of pictures before when they're wearing their white clothes, and they take lots of pictures afterwards when they're wearing their muddy clothes. I've seen very little variation on that kind of pattern through the numerous photo albums. I would tread very carefully with this line of argument because essentially what you're saying is you don't judge. You don't actually have to look at any real world evidence that I want to present. You are like me.

You can just assume that people who want to have fun are dum-dums. And that is not an assumption that I make. Ever. Now, I will judge for myself whether this is intolerable zaniness. Stand by.

All right. Stand by. Alright. Alright, I see people wading across this lake. Climbing up a rope. I don't see any costumes. I don't see any Brother Power the Geek. I don't see any I don't see any Commandee the Last Boy.

Oh, wait a minute minute now I see someone uh oh I saw someone in pajamas wearing a fake tail that's too zany oh I see someone dressed up as Raggedy Ann we're Raggedy Andy

I can't tell oh boy and someone's wearing a fake crown let's just go a little bit further here okay here's the running portion Oh, boy. And someone's wearing a fake crown. Let's just go a little bit further here. Okay, here's the running portion. Now, here's the wall.

All right, they're climbing over the wall. This wall, anyone who's listening can go look up San Luis Obispo Mud Mash 2011, they'll see that this wall looks like the most dangerous and splintery patched together piece of junk that I've ever seen in my life. It looks like the treehouse from The Simpsons fell down. I would not ever do that. Okay, coming down off the wall. Yeah, most of these people are wearing normal stuff. It's not like, you know, it's not like a

terrible Ren Faire. Now here they are going through the mud. They're splashing each other. They're having a good time. And let me just get to the end here. Hmm. Okay, and here they are. They're at the finish line. Nice sunny day, running on green lawns.

Right. Two people clapping. I know, right. Green lawns, right. You see what I mean? Running on green lawns. Right, not a cloud in the sky. You see what I mean, Judge?

Sunny day. Probably smells like springtime. No, it a cloud in the sky. You see what I mean, Judge? Ugh, sunny day. Probably smells like springtime. No, it's near Halloween. Fall. It's probably a crisp autumn wind, too. Probably someone's eating some cider donuts somewhere. You know what I mean? Ugh, gross.

Okay, so that's what you're looking at and that you're getting mad at? I mean, there's, you know, yeah, yeah. Melissa? Yeah? How long have you been going out with Henry? For a bit over a year. Okay. So it's a new relationship.

Yes. Is this misanthropic side ofry something that is new to you or old to you at this point because it's old to me already well judge to his credit he we have a lot of fun together and and if it's something that he suggests or he's interested in doing he's more than uh willing to be adventurous and do. What is fun? What is the fun you have together? Painting the windows black? And watching Ingmar Bergman films?

We do some puzzles, yeah. We like to play games together, brew beer, hang out with our friends, pretty basic things. Henry, is what Melissa says true? Are you a home brewer? Yeah, yeah. We have dabbled. Henry, but is what Melissa says. True. Are you a home brewer? Uh, yeah, yeah.

We, we have dabbled. Oh boy. Well, you all know, right? Home brewers are all a certain way. Brewing, brewing,

then toasting their barley and picking out their things and having a, you know, being really meticulous about specific gravity. I think we're pretty entry-level homebrewers. So we pick up the kits, let them do that, and then just brew the beer ourselves. Okay. So you guys have a lot of fun together. Yes, we have a lot of fun together.

What kind of games do you play? What kind of games do we play? Cribbage and Scattergories. Not mental games, not mind games that you're playing with each other. What other kind are there? Scattergories, that takes more than two people to play, right? Yeah, we like to play games with friends as well. We have game nights fairly regularly.

You have friends over and everything else. Is he as much a misanthrope as he is representing at the moment, or is this something he's putting on to challenge this court? I think it's just this particular event he's really digging his heels in and not wanting to try. So it's coming out more than usual. And Henry, you are a biker, right? Yes. A bicyclist? Yes. You participate in at least one of the sports of solitary personal perfection that I appreciate. Okay, great. So you're not put off by physical activity per se.

No, no, it's not the physicality of the event that's stopping me here. It's the enforced zaniness. Do you think they don't take mud running sufficiently seriously? Well, that brings up another point. I think they bring it up a little bit too frivolously. Well, it's kind of the same point that I just made. You don't think they're treating mud running seriously enough? I think they're not considering the ecological effects that they're having on the environment as well.

Here we go. Go on. Now I'm all ears. So as a part of this event, they're digging very large holes. Are they fracking? Is this a frack run? You know, I don't know anything about that. But in these holes, they're putting in lots of water, which is causing more and more erosion in a part of California that suffers quite a bit already from soil erosion into our watersheds. So I think celebrating this kind of activity and making a game of it frivolizes the seriousness of that issue. First of all, I am an emeritus member of the Yale literary theory squad. Applaud your neologism.

Frivolizes. Thank you. I intend to use that from now on and I would never credit you. No, I'll credit you if I remember. Okay. Thanks. Do you have any evidence that

this run is actually causing damage to the course, damage to the ground, damage to the ecology, damage to the groundwater, whatever it is? Or is this just something you're ginning up in order to Not at all. I don't think it's possible to watch those videos of these events and not consider the the erosive effects that all these people on all of this wet soil tromping through all of this riparian habitat is having on the macro invertebrate amphibian bird and fish species of the waterways well first of all it is possible because I just watched it and I didn't notice any of that. I think of any of the invertebrate species. So but that could be my failing.

What it is clearly possible for you to look at this video and think about this damage. Do you have expertise in evaluating ecological damage of this kind? What is your profession? I hesitate to say expertise, but yes, I work in a watershed restoration organization. So it's an org? I guess you could call it that. It's a service-based thing. It's AmeriCorps.

Oh, okay. All right. But you know something of what you speak? Yeah, a little bit. Okay. And enough to determine that this is causing actual damage? I haven't witnessed it myself, but yeah, definitely. Next time you have this fight, may I recommend that you find an expert witness to show this video to and prepare an affidavit saying that this thing actually causes actual damage?

Because I'm not in a position to evaluate that. And you are a non-neutral party. Yeah, no, that's a great idea. Yeah. Okay. Well, next time. Next time this comes out. Yeah.

Do you know anyone in your soil erosion hobby club that you can email this video to quickly and see if they can provide you with a reaction? I could investigate. Yeah, I could try. All right. go do that. Okay. Melissa? Yes? Where did you find this guy? We went to high school together.

This guy. Do you hear his whole spiel about the invertebrate species and the fish species? This guy's the Lorax. He speaks for the trees. He does. He's very ecological minded. And those are things that are really important to him.

So yeah, I understand that argument. Standing on top of a stump that has unless printed on it. Yeah. This guy's serious. Very. Well, he's serious about winning, so he's going to do whatever he has to, you know.

So he's competitive. Yes, we both are, which is one reason I thought he would enjoy this kind of potentially competitive event. Well, he clearly likes fighting. Debate. I think he would call it debating, but yes. It's my courtroom. I'll call it fighting. Fair enough. Duly noted. Debate. I think he would call it debating, but yes. It's my courtroom. I'll call it fighting.

Fair enough. Now, so are you trying to win a fight here by forcing him to do something that he doesn't want to do? No. See, that's one thing. I am very against that idea. I don't want to force him to do something. My hope was that I could just... You're hoping that I will force him to do it. No, and I don't think that... I listen to the podcast. I don't think that's something you generally are inclined to do. I guess my hope was that he would kind of realize that originally he had talked also about the size and organized event kind of nature. But it is a much smaller event than some of the other mud-based obstacle courses. based obstacle courses. And, you know, I would just like to see him kind of say yes and, and open up to trying some new things slightly outside of his comfort zone. And see, you know, what that can bring about. How would you describe his comfort zone? What is in his comfort zone? What is out of

his comfort zone? Gut reaction? Go. Well, festivals, large, you know, big, big events with a lot of people, generally speaking. But as we mentioned before, he is a cyclist and he has participated in a long distance cycling event for charity. Right. That was a much bigger and much longer event than the one I'm asking to him to participate in. Were they tandem bicycles? Just a single bike, but there were, you know, maybe 20. He was by himself the whole entire time. Well, no, he did it with a group of his friends and family.

Yeah, but he didn't, he didn't have to talk, he wasn't talking with them and interacting with them while he was riding. Intermittently, I would imagine he was. And no one was wearing a Raggedy Ann costume. I think there might have been people in costumes doing that as well, but no, not him. Can you provide evidence of that? Of anybody wearing costumes? At the bike thing that you talked about? Is that true?

What you just said, is that true? That somebody at the bike event... I can't fight these fights for you guys. Yes, I think I could find a picture of somebody wearing a costume at a bike event. While he's doing that thing, you go on the internet and find a picture of someone wearing a funny outfit and a bicycle. I think he's actually doing that work for me because he was unable to contact somebody that could He's getting evidence for you?

Yeah, so I can talk with you. He's a good guy. No, no, no. I don't want to talk to you anymore. You go find your own evidence. He goes, just stand by, please. Jesse? Yes, Judge Hodgman? It's not often that we get to be in the same room. That's true. So I can now look you in the eye, and just as you gave me wise counsel with regard to Jeremy and Paul regarding wearing a Phillies outfit at a Dodgers game, do you have any feedback for me here?

I guess I wonder, Judge Hodgman. Yes. I guess I wonder, Judge Hodgman, whether this aversion is – to what extent this aversion is about disinterest in participating in public goofery? in wanting to spend time with one's girlfriend's friends in a context where the stated goal is for you to become friends with them. That is very well put, Jesse. Please, though, don't frivolize Henry's argument by using the term goofery. I also question Henry's, what we'll call Henry's silent spring premise. He thinks there's a secret environmental holocaust going on under the feet of these people running through a municipal pond. Well, Henry, were you able to find any evidence from any of your soil erosion hobby club friends?

I was not. Okay. So let's set that aside for the moment. Melissa, were you or Henry able to come up with any evidence of people wearing Raggedy Ann costumes at a bicycle race? Yes, there was. I'm emailing it over right now. All right. Can you just describe it to me?

You're under oath, so I trust you to not lie. Come back to the microphone. The picture I think that's the most damning is of two gentlemen riding near each other during the race, both wearing what appear to be Wonder Woman costumes. And this was a race that Henry participated in? Yes. All right. So we can throw out the ecological argument

and we can throw out Henry's aversion to costumes because obviously when the moment suits him, when the mood suits him, he won't turn up his nose at a Wonder Woman suit contest. So this leaves the issue that Jesse so smartly pointed out. Henry. Henry. Yes. I want you to answer me honestly.

Do you hesitate? Do you resent being asked to forcibly befriend your girlfriend's friends? Not at all. I've met this group of friends on a handful of different occasions. It sounded like you said friends with quotation marks around. No, not at all. All right. I've met these friends on a handful of occasions, and I quite like them.

All right. However, I know. What are their names? All right. However, what are their names? They're well, the names of those invited to be part of this team are Tony, Mike, Josh, Anastasia. And but like I know the whole the whole cohort. I know all of them. So wait a minute. Are Tony. Tony and Mike and Josh are all dudes, right? They're all dudes, yeah. Melissa?

Yes? Why are you trying to make Henry run around in the mud with your old boyfriends? Well, they're not my old boyfriends. They're my old roommates, but they are... In love with you? No, they're in love with each other. Whoa, San Luis Obispo.po well san francisco that's why they you know san luis obispo is just a saying that i have when i it's like egads or gods

uh henry are melissa's former roommates in love with her or each other? I think both, but definitely in love with each other. Are you jealous of these friends and their relationship with Melissa? No, not at all. All right, let me rephrase that. How jealous are you? I'm not jealous at all. And my only aversion to this particular event is not having to do with becoming closer with them, which is something that I would like myself, but more just the environment that it will happen in.

What would be an alternative suggestion for a bonding get-together? Like making a nice hoppy ale? Like a nice hoppy IPA or what? I think that could be considered but something a little less uh watching some ecology film strips those can get pretty uh zany too but uh i think i would like something a little less high key something a little more low key and less planned and less event-like and less, so I would feel less pressure to feel that kind of spirit of team bonding and the like. I think Melissa and her friends were very close together

at a time when they were going to lots of these large group events and festivals together. And I think that's somewhere where they thrive and where their friendship thrives. So what would be an alternative, a specific alternative social plan that would be acceptable to you? If I were to rule in your favor and say that you didn't have to do this, what would you offer to Melissa as an alternative? Well, I think that weekend in October would look very similar. They could participate in the mud-based obstacle course.

And in the evening time, we would have a nice, mellow, like, cooked dinner here at the house in San Luis Obispo or play some, you know, board games. Just a little bit less pressure on that kind of spirit. not actually stay home and make dinner and then welcome you and all your lovers home with a freshly home-brewed beer and a board game? Well, because I feel like, as he did mention, this is an environment that I thrive in. And I feel I've stretched myself out, you know, and gone into environments where he thrives more to get to know his friends. And I would love a specific example of a time when you did exactly that. I'm going disc golfing with him and his friends, which I'm very bad at. Frolf is involved. Disc golf.

Disc golf. You Frolf? Henry, you have a lot of nerve coming into this court complaining about sustained zaniness. When it turns out you're a Frolf? Henry, you have a lot of nerve coming into this court Complaining about sustained zaniness When it turns out you're a Frolf enthusiast Yeah, so there's I just recently learned how to play a board game That he and his friends love And I was a little hesitant too

But now I actually enjoy it as well What is that game called? Settlers of Catan. Sure. I'll allow you to buzz market that. Okay. And that was really fun. I'm glad to have tried that.

So those are areas I think when he thrives more, things he and his friends thrive more in. And so it gave me an opportunity to really get to know his friends on their level and in the area they're comfortable. And so he is right. This is an area where me and my friends will feel quite at home. But so I think that even gives him more of an opportunity to get to know me and them. Even if I agreed with you in theory, wouldn't you have to agree with me that running a 5K mud run, whether or not you're wearing a stilt man costume, is a lot more taxing than sitting and playing a round of Settlers of Catan or the non-athletic sport of Rolf. Right. But he's never had a problem.

He said he doesn't actually have a problem with the physicality of it. But how long does it take to run this thing? Well, I would say maybe an hour when you consider all of the obstacles. And how long does it take to play a round of Frolf? Oh, they are out there for hours. Right. And Settlers of Catan takes, I think, 72 hours to play. Somewhere, if you're doing it right.

So it's a smaller investment of time. It's a greater investment of exertion. Yes. Alright. But they do have beer at the finish line. Well, yeah, but Henry didn't make it, so why would he want to drink it? There's nothing worse than drinking someone else's

beer. Henry, would you be, as opposed to to this if it had been your idea? It's hard for me to imagine it being my idea to begin with. I think my problem with it is not that it stems from Melissa, but that it, you know, the aforementioned environment. It's the wrong kind of embarrassing and dorky. I guess that's a way to put it. All right.

So here's the thing. I could only rule in Melissa's favor if I felt that you were being in any way disingenuous about your deep gut offense at this particular event. And now you've made your argument so far, but since I really need to hear very clearly, if I'm going to rule in your favor here, I need to hear the most sincere case you can make as to why this thing is personally offensive to you. And I would ask you to lay off the BS climate change pseudoscience, because we all know that's a liberal conspiracy. We all know it's a liberal conspiracy that mud runs are destroying the earth so that they can control every part of our lives and they don't want us to have any fun. Let's leave that out of the equation, right?

Just say in just a couple of sentences, this, I really, really do not want to do this because. Go. I really, really do not want to do this because go. So my objections lie not in the physicality of the event, but in the environment of the event, because it involves things that make me, I hesitate to say uncomfortable, Things that make me, I hesitate to say uncomfortable, but things where I don't necessarily shine at my brightest. And I know Melissa and her friends do.

Which are? Which are? What things that don't make you shine at your brightest are we talking about? Primarily being in costume and being in large group events. And so if the end goal is for me to become closer with her friends, putting me in an environment where I'm less than my best might be counterproductive. It might give her friends a poor impression of who I can be. He doesn't have to wear a costume. Excuse me, I'm trying to have a moment with your boyfriend.

That is meaningful to me. Would you feel differently? And I'm not saying would you definitely agree to do this, but would you feel differently if she were asking you to do this and the friends were not part of the equation? No, not at all. with you because the emotional argument that you're making here is that you're you feel self-conscious about going into this event that you don't like and you won't be at your best and you want to make a good impression on her friends if you say no it wouldn't make a difference at all then what you're saying is this thing makes me uncomfortable and i'm unwilling to make any concessions to her no matter the circumstances i i think where I'm coming from is that I'm more likely to do it

with her friends' involvement because I want to get to know them myself. So you're more, okay. One of the reasons that Melissa wants you to do this is to get you out of your comfort zone. And there have been very few litigants that I've talked to over the Internet air. Yeah. Who so clearly have a comfort zone. So clearly have a discomfort zone.

See, I disagree. I feel like I've quite explored the outsides of my comfort zone and am willing to go there again where, shoot, where I guess it's more comfortable. Name an example when you got out of your comfort zone and met a challenge that Melissa gave you simply because she requested it of you. I think it involves getting together with her and her friend. Oh, just the fact of getting together with them. You have to understand these get togethers can be very event like in their presentation and in their execution. I don't doubt I have to understand it, but I will say you are not helping me to understand it. Where costumes are encouraged

and there's a closeness amongst them that it's hard for an outside person to penetrate. How many different costume-based events are they doing? Or are you just talking about this mud run with the costumes? I'll leave that to Melissa to explain. We kind of like costumes. So if we can work it into an event, probably people's birthday parties or what, you know, Friday nights, we would often stop by the costume closet before we went out.

Wait a minute, you had a costume closet in your house? Well, in San Francisco, I did. Yes. So these were your roommates and you lived in San Francisco and you had a costume closet. And what kind of costumes are we talking about? Superhero costumes? Yeah, all sorts of costumes, though. I need you to be specific uh superhero costumes um kind of you know we went to burning man a lot so the oh sorry uh though you know costumes that you would wear out out there um

ice skater costumes ninja costumes we had some um geisha costumes just a lot of costumes do you have a costume how do you guys live together we do you have a costume closet i barely have a closet so no my costumes are actually at my mom's house are you all right interesting henry thumbs up or thumbs down on costumes? In general? Yeah. I would say probably thumbs down. It takes like a big occasion for a costume. Like what would be an acceptable costume occasion?

If you're on stage doing a performance. Okay. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to go into my costume closet and put on my powdered wig and think this over. I'll be right back. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Henry, how do you feel about your chances? Um, you know, not great.

I don't feel great, no. How do you feel about your chances in your next froth meetup? Honestly, I feel pretty good. He's quite good. Is that what initially attracted you to him, Melissa? His skull? I mean, it didn't detract, you know. I mean, you could put any chump out there.

If you get him in a froth outfit, get that disc in his hand, he's going to look pretty good. Right, Melissa? Yeah, but Henry has very good form. Melissa, how are you feeling about your chances? I'm not sure exactly, I guess. I know Judge isn't one usually to force people to do something against their will. I was hoping throughout the course of this, Henry would just kind of have an epiphany and realize, well, this wouldn't be so bad.

It's not such a large scale event. I don't have to wear a costume. My girlfriend loves me. I'll do this. Well, we'll see how Judge John Hodgman rules. We'll be back in just a second. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much

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That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware dot com. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace,

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. So, Henry made an emotional appeal that really struck me when I asked him to describe on a gut level what he didn't like about this event. And for once, he stopped pointing to costumes and ecological damage. And he simply said, I just don't think I'm going to be at my best.

And I want to be at my best for the benefit of her friends. And I thought that was pretty moving. And then I said, well, what if her friends weren't there? Would you then go along with it? And then he said, no. And then I realized, Henry's just going to say anything to get out of this thing. Hey, Henry, you truly do have a bright line of comfort and discomfort. And you truly do have difficulty walking over that line for even someone who clearly cares about you and whom you clearly care about. And I think you are also a very smart person and a competitive person and a

good arguer and you will change, but the way you are changing arguments in order to get out of this thing suggests to me that this is a thing that would be something that a healthy couple would be able to find a compromise on. Mm-hmm. You are correct, Melissa, and I'm not like that smug mm-hmm you just gave.

You've heard enough of these that I will fake you out. I'm sorry. You have no idea what I'm gonna say, so don't you start agreeing with me. Mm-hmm. Because you didn't you did not with me. Because you didn't you did not make a case. You didn't make a case.

You just said he should do it because I say so. If you wanted to convince him that this was not as big an event as he feared it would be, you should have said this is the number of people who are coming and it's very low key. If you wanted to make a case that not

a lot of people wear costumes, any one of you people could have sent me this YouTube of these non-costume wearing people. I'm not here to solve these problems for you. I'm here to tell you who's wrong and who's right, to evaluate the evidence. And you presented no evidence other than you want to. You want him to.

I do have the numbers. Too late, buddy. I'm sorry. Too late. I've got to say, I've got this information. But the thing is that asking something of a spouse, even if it's outside of their comfort zone, is almost all the time a compulsion, a meaningful compulsion. The other spouse should be able to say, or not a spouse, obviously, your boyfriend, girlfriend.

We'll see if you ever become spouses. But a boyfriend and girlfriend say to each other, honey, I really want you to do this. I don't want to do it. It's too zany. It's important to me. And then it's just like, you got no choice, buddy or girl or friend or pal or chum. You got to do it. That said, I will never, ever, ever compel anyone to run a race.

It's not going to ever happen in the court of Judge John Hodgman. It's not going to ever happen in the court of Judge John Hodgman. horrible costumes and their I can't even think of how badly they're going to damage the world by doing this. And then he will greet them at the end with beer that he has made. And then you will all go home and play a weirdo board game

of Henry's choosing. You must go to this thing, sir, but you must not run if you do not wish to. That is my ruling. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. How do you feel about this, Henry?

You know, I feel good. I feel vindicated. Though I must say, during the judge's ruling, it made me kind of reevaluate some of my own positions and why I take them. So the race is a long ways away and we'll see. Melissa, that sounds like what you were hoping for all along. Yeah, you know, I did have the facts and the figures. I didn't, I suppose I should have interjected them more. But my overall, the best outcome for me wouldn't have been to force him to do it, but would have been for him to just kind of see that, hey, maybe it wouldn't be so bad to step on over and give it a try. Well, guys, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you so much. Good luck, guys, and run well, Melissa. I hope you win. Oh, thank you. Hey, Judge Hodgman, catch. Oh, you tricked me into frothing again. No, I can't not catch a thing when you throw it at me. Ha ha ha ha. Not only did I trick you into frothing again, but once again, No, I can't not catch a thing when you throw it at me. Not only did I trick you into frothing again, but once again, I tricked you into being a froth target or hole. You tricked me into being a hole. Can we clear the docket, please?

Here's something from Gary. Please help me settle a dispute between me and my 10-year-old daughter regarding our dog, King Louie. We adopted him from a shelter a few years ago. He was tagged as a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel mix, although he bears only a casual resemblance to that breed. A Cav King Chaz? Sure. A classic.

My daughter has asked for a DNA test so we can find out exactly what kind of breed Louie is. Permission granted. I think that since we won't be showing Louie in competition and also cannot breed him, his specific genetic makeup is irrelevant. Shut up, Gary. DNA test on a dog automatically approved. And we love him and we can leave it at that. However, my daughter wants to end the speculation.

She also feels that it may help us to know what kinds of breed-based health problems we might encounter. I've attached a picture of the dog, which, of course, will be in the post on MaximumFun.org. It is very out of focus, frankly a terrible picture, but it looks like a really cute dog. It's a good Cav King Chaz-a-doodle. Oh, it's got classic King Chaz-a-doodle features. With a little bit of cockapoo. Mm-hmm. Yep. Just a hint.

Yeah, listen, Gary, your 10-year-old daughter is smarter than you. First of all, she is, like all children, a natural scientist, and she wants to do a 23andMe on your dog? Of course. Of course you're going to get a DNA test on your dog. That's a fantastic father-daughter thing to do.

That's fun. Do you understand what fun is? Second of all, she is right. It is good for you to know what kind of dog you have in case there are health-related issues. Cav King Chazapoo is notorious for snoring. And also seizures and also for sleepwalking and murdering people

in its sleep. And you want to know if that's what you have to deal with. Some of that information was not true, by the way. Automatic ruling in favor of 10-year-old daughters basically all the time, but definitely in this case. Here's something from Robin. My husband is a truly world-class sleeper

who can nod off instantly while I toss and turn. We both like to listen to something as we fall asleep. Unfortunately, he likes to listen to podcasts, among them this one. Oh, sorry. I would prefer something more soporific, like BBC News. Now, look, if you're telling me that we are not soporific enough, I am offended.

Insufficient soporificity is... Don't frivolize this, Jesse. I say that the person who can fall asleep instantly should cater to the needs of the person for whom slumber is a struggle and make it easier for her to drift off. So what? She wants him to put on World Service? Something boring. Late Night World Service? She says if she listens to a great, hilarious podcast like this one, she'll want to stay up so that she can stay up through the end and find out what happens.

Yeah. You know, here's the thing. In the same way that it's not appropriate to watch television in bed if someone's trying to fall asleep and they have trouble. Yeah, of course. The main reason for the bedroom is sleeping. Now, if this guy can fall asleep easily, you should put in some earbuds, like maybe the kinds of earbuds that you get for being a Maximum Fun donor this year in the prize pack, right? Got some sweet earbuds?

Yeah. I don't know if those are still available. Maybe this guy should give some money to Maximum Fun by going to MaximumFun.org and hit donate. And maybe, just maybe, if he writes a letter of apology, I'll send him my earbuds. But yeah, dude, put in some earbuds. Your wife's trying to sleep. I would, can I ask for a further stipulation? Sure. That people stop telling me how much they like my podcast and they listen to them as they go to

sleep. Because it's a real backhanded compliment. It makes me feel bad. No, but you should feel good about that. Because my podcast is such a snooze? No, because people are listening to your voice or my voice, the voice of other Maximum Fun talent, at the most intimate time in their lives. They're the last thing they want to hear before they go to sleep. And potentially die. They could be the last thing they ever hear in their lives. That's an honor as far as I'm concerned. Do you think it would be... At least they're not naming a plant after you.

Do you think it would be a good idea for me to put hypnotic suggestions into my podcast so that people can quit smoking or become more likely to donate to MaximumFun.org? I don't know. All I would have to say is you are feeling beautiful and generous. You are feeling beautiful and generous. You are feeling beautiful and generous. You are feeling beautiful and generous. Beautiful people are generous. Beautiful people donate money. Beautiful people are not selfish like your husband. Well, that's all we've got. Our thanks this week to Philip Schaefer for naming this week's episode. Thanks, Philip.

If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne, J-E-S-S-E-T-H-O-R-N, at Hodgman, at MaxFunHQ for MaximumFun.org, or like us on Facebook and keep your eyes peeled for when we're asking for suggestions. That's how we get our suggestions. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman on matters large or small, please submit it to us. Go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. That's all for this week. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com.

You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at Forum.MaximumFun.org and our Facebook group at Facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.