Judge John Hodgman - Force Masseur

Episode Date: July 29, 2026

Natalie brings the case against her boyfriend, Mike. Mike has been living the Sharper Image dream for the last 12 years: his own in-home massage chair! It’s not just a source of relaxation for him. Mike says it’s a fun piece that makes visiting their home a unique experience! But Natalie doesn’t want their home to offer guests a unique experience. She wants their guests to have a comfortable seat that doesn’t need to be turned on to enjoy. It’s time to let the chair go. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? Thanks to reddit user u/acone419 for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! ---Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff, Jesse Thorne. This week, Force Maseur. Natalie brings the case against her boyfriend, Mike. 12 years ago, Mike treated himself to the sharper image dream, his very own massage chair. Over the years, this chair has moved with Mike to five different homes. It's not just a source of relaxation for him. Mike says it's a fun piece that makes visiting their home a unique experience. But Natalie doesn't want their home to offer guests a unique experience. She wants their guests to have a comfortable seat that doesn't need to be turned on to enjoy. It's time to let the massage chair go. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. We know what happens to today when it becomes yesterday. It waits for them.

It waits for them. the timekeepers of eternity, always following them behind, cleaning up the mess in the most efficient way possible by eating it. Bail of Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Mike, Natalie, please rise and raise your right hands. You swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you, God or whatever? I do.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that we recently went on vacation together and he wouldn't give me a massage. I do. I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. I offered to give you a mental massage, a mind massage. Uh-huh. You just wanted to read out loud from Moby Dick to me. That's what I call a mind massage. Oh, got it. Okay. Yeah. After I oil myself. Gross. Natalie and Mike, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment. One of your favorites can I either of you name the piece of obscure culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom.

Natalie, why don't we start with you? What is your guess? Can you name the quote? It is a quote. I really have no idea. I was going to guess something from medallion status. Just to flatter the old hodge? I figured that you'd been in massage chairs.

Natalie wins. Bye-bye, Mike. You figured I'd been in a massage chair and medallion status at one point or another? Interesting. I'm going to write down your guess. As anyone who's watching the YouTube can see, I'm writing the guest down now. And, you know, I'm going to say that, well, it's not exactly right, nor is it exactly wrong insofar as medallion status, the book now available in paperback along with this companion volume, Vacation Land. Medallion status has a lot to do with airplane travel.

So, Mike, that's a hint for you. It is something air travel related. What is your guess? Um, I was going to guess, like, maybe like an old Japanese airline commercial, something like that. An old Japanese airline commercial. Or something like that. Write down or something like that. Or something like that.

Could have pinned Singaporean or. Joel, man, you got a guess. I was going to say, Ina Garton's new cookbook, but that has nothing to do with airports. Well, you know what? That could be a beach read. Might find it at the grasshopper shop where, Joel? Belfast. Well, where's the other one?

Ellsworth. Okay, where's the other one? Bangor. Bangor, where? Wilson Boulevard. Oh, come on, Joel. It's air travel related. Oh, Bangor Airport.

Bangor International Airport, Joel? Right. Thank you very much, Joel. My favorite airport. And Joel, mine as well. Joel, the main man, man is here holding down the knobs and dials here at our summer studios, WERU.org and Orland, Maine. and Joel, you have guessed fairly closely as well, interestingly enough, although all guesses are wrong.

That quote is very main related and it is air travel related insofar as it is a quote from an adaptation of a Stephen King story called The Langalears. Specifically, the 1995 television miniseries called The Langaleers, starring a wildly unhinged Bronson Pinchot. Bronson Pinchot himself was not unhinged. He was playing unhinged. Have you ever seen a Bronson Pinchot performance that you would characterize as hinged? Extra hinged. I suppose you're right.

I suppose you're right. But he really, really, he really put the WD40 to the hinge on this one. It really popped right out of the doorframe when filming the strange and upset man, Craig Toomey, who is especially upset because he is a meeting at the Prudential Center in Boston at 9 a.m. but his flight is diverted to the Bangor International Airport

due to mysterious circumstances, which Dean Stockwell figures out is because they have traveled back in time 15 minutes. That's a spoiler for that 1995 television miniseries, which I think is only available as a bootleg on YouTube right now. The beauty of this miniseries, though, is not terrific. It is not the worst. But it is wonderfully shot in the Bangor International Airport.

100% of it, where, in fact, the original story was set. I love that airport. It also has a grasshopper shop where you can get cookbooks and beach reeds. They used to do a really good tuna melt at the canteena there, but they took that off the menu for some reason. And what do they have in the lobby area and the waiting area? I think three massage chairs. Yes. Right?

Would you say three, Joel? Three. Maybe four. Maybe four. Yeah. But three that are reliably working. And boy, do I love sitting in them. I love massage chairs a lot.

and I've often wanted one in my home, which Natalie make you wonder, should I recuse myself? And if this were a real court of law, I would, but it's a fake court of law. And we have a podcast to record, and I do want to hear both sides of the story. So let's get into it. Mike, you have a massage chair in your home, correct? Yes, that's correct. And tell me all about it. When did it come into your life?

When I graduated from medical school as sort of anticipation for the stressful residency years, which is like kind of when you are a doctor, but you're training a grueling hours. You're not going to have much downtime to yourself. I decided to kind of splurge on myself a way to decompress during the working hours, getting a massage chair. And the only place I could reasonably put it in my previous houses or apartments was just right in the living room, could always make it work with the couch. I was always dealing with like back pain and I found that massage was like the best way to kind of directly target it, especially if it's like muscular related.

I know people can have medical conditions where they have to, you know, go through prescriptions or surgeries and whatnot. But at least luckily for me, I found that getting a nice massage really takes care of even the more debilitating lower back pains. And I did use to go through like groupons and go to a masseuse for like 60 bucks for an hour of deep tissue. But I got really interested in like were there any devices out there that were truly like effective at getting that deep tissue massage replicating it. And with my research, I just realized that you really had to step up to the full blown space pod to really get that effectiveness and that satisfaction. I'm out. What's a space pod? I think he's referring to the model of the massage chair.

It's the infinity full-blown space pod, right? It looks like a space pod. Yeah, that's the one thing we would joke is basically all the massage chairs, they do have that, like, both futuristic or almost retro futuristic look to them. They all have that, like, capsule, dominating future, very large. and stature. So, like, something you'd see on a space station, but not necessarily in, like, a normal living room aesthetic. So, yeah, I sort of just as a U.T referral to it as a space pod. I'm now imagining it 100% as the, like, the pod that Donald Pleasance as president of the

United States gets into it in John Carpenter's escape from New York, where it's sort of like egg-shaped in burgundy. It has a live that closes. And then it apparently falls to the ground into the prison colony of New York City. Yeah, that's called escaping. Yeah. And in the way, it is an escape. We're going to put you in this presidential egg and then drop you to the surface. Mr. President, strap that briefcase to your wrist and get in the pod.

We need you. Well, relaxed. So the model is not the full-blown escape pod. It is actually the Infinity IT-8500. Yeah. I'm just saying that off. There's a guess that I have. Am I correct? Yeah, that is the model I ended up landing on. And I don't know how much I wanted to get into at this point. Why specifically that chair? But that one ended up checking all the boxes of there. There are a lot of massage chairs out there that are a lot more gentle. They just kind of swivel your hips around. But the nice thing about the IT 8500 is it doesn't hold anything back. If you, it doesn't just swivel your hips around. If you're not used to massage to begin with, it can actually be somewhat painful,

especially if you've been developing knots and tightness for years and never really manipulated back there. This chair, when did you get it? When you graduate from medical school, but how long ago are we talking about? Yeah, like 12 years, right? I wasn't with you when you got it. Yeah, it was right after I grew. Honestly, what a surprise to learn that he was a single man when he bought a massage chair. When he installed a space pod in his home.

Oh, no wonder you want to get rid of this chair, Katie. This is a remnant of a previous life. Well, I don't care about the previous life. No. It's just really ugly and uncomfortable. I'll be the judge of that of its ugliness because, first of all, all the massage chairs are ugly. The only question here is how ugly is it?

Let's take a look. You send in some evidence, starting with a photo, is that right? How ugly is it? For those who can't see, obviously, this and all evidence will be featured on our show page at maximum fund.org as well as all of our social media, including our YouTube channel, which if you're watching it right now, you can see. see it right now. This is, this is you, Mike, and who's your companion in the massage chair? So that's Bernie. And to be clear for people who are listening and not watching,

Bernie is a dog. Yeah. On your lap. Bernie is a wonderful looking dog. What kind of dog is Bernie? Pit Terrier. Yeah, very clingy too. So back in his younger days, you'd always hop up wherever I was sitting, even the massage chair. Does Bernie like that? a massage? He likes scratches and scratches behind the neck but not a massage from the chair at least. He'd probably get scared out of it. He doesn't take a ride on the, what is it, the

Infinity IT 8500? No. He's gotten older since this picture, so he can't really like jump up onto Mike's lap anymore. When was this photo taken? Probably like 2019. Okay. So at this point, the chair was already well over five years old. Mm-hmm. And I'm going to say, you know, it is a massage chair. It does look like a full-blown, leathery space pod.

But it seems to be in pretty good shape, and it still operates pretty well? Yeah, that was one of the appeals of the IT 8500, because I ended up not paying like sticker price. There's like a whole underworld of massage chair trading. So I reached out to a massage chair The black market A massage chair A dealer that was also a repairman And you know how like a good sage advice

If you want to get a household appliance Listen to what the repairman have to say About your washer dryer or dishwasher And he recommended it because Very sturdy, very durable Often didn't need repairs And that has been the case all 10-12 years now So do we have any video of this massage chair in action?

We did submit some. All right. For people who can't see, you're missing out. Please go to the YouTube immediately and go to this moment where Mike is reclining in the space pod with a dog in his lap getting a massage. But this is a different dog in your lap because I see Bernie at your feet, right? Mm-hmm. Who's his other dog? That's Daisy.

Does Daisy like to ride in the massage chair? Or was Daisy a little freaked out there? She was a little freaked out. Yeah. She's a little more pliable. Like, whatever we do to her, she'll just accept. So. But she's also, like, almost 60 pounds.

Yeah, she's a big girl. I hear when you're getting a massage in your back and you got Daisy walking up and down on your front, she holds nothing back. You're getting a full passage on your belly at that moment, right? Yeah. I think it's important to note that. The scale of this chair is definitely space pod. Right.

But the aesthetic of this chair is like, I bought it at home goods in 1997. Mm-hmm. Like, this really has that, like, leather sofa free Craigslist look to it. Yeah, you know, Jesse, I think they all kind of look like that. Over the years, I've been massage chairs covetously for decades. and they have not really changed in style. I mean, you've done the research, Mike. They've not really changed in style, right?

No, yeah. A lot of it is the hardware. What's under the hood, the features of under the outer covering. That is not clearly, you pretty much have to sit in them and try them out yourself to really get an idea.

Now, this seating in them that you described just with Daisy on your lap and Bernie at your feet, what a picture of a home. but it seems to be happening in a garage. Yeah, that's the, that's kind of the late stage development. We had recently moved. So if we had lined things up a little bit better, it would have been a discussion before move.

But at this point, we're in a large enough residence. We got a two-car garage. I have it right next to the rest of the no pain, no gain gear. I have a little bit of a home gym as well. So maybe it's a different aesthetic there. Yeah. When you said no pain, no gain gear, I just figured you, it was a poster that you had gotten Spencer's gifts. Yeah, I imagined one of those LED light up cursive signs that you would find in like an Airbnb.

Yeah, exactly. How did it feel to be reunited with your beloved chair in your garage there with your dog on your lap and your other dog at your feet? King of the castle or what? Yeah, it certainly is a gratifying moment, a cultural touchstone for our household. And yeah, I'm glad Daisy actually got to try out the chair as well. And even though Bernie couldn't quite hop on, he recognized that that was a good moment to be around in, too. Natalie, I can think of a way that you could easily make space in one's home for this massage chair. Do you want to know what it is?

What? Become divorced. That's one less person. Yeah. No, all right. Natalie, we've seen this chair in action. We've seen Mike in the chair. We've seen a couple of dogs in the chair. Have you ever taken a zero-gravity ride on the full-blown escape pod that is the infinity IT 8500?

I have. I don't like it, actually. I feel like it, again, I'm. would need like three layers of towels on it because it is very rough on your back. Yeah. So you're you're strapped in. It's got spaces for your arms too. So you like put your arms in.

It's got hydraulic. Not hydraulics. Airbags. It's like airbags in like your arms and your neck. So I'm not, I'm also like I'm a little bit of a control freak. So I don't like the idea of being strapped into a thing and it moving without any control over it. So that's part of my, I'm not a fan of it. Jesse, you ever,

you ever get a massage at the Bangor International Airport in one of these chairs or another airport or whatever? You ever been in one of these guys? Yeah, I have been in these guys. And, you know, I think I'm 6-4, John, and I'm not confident that a massage chair that's sized for the average person who's whatever 5-8 or something like that is going to fit me effectively. When I get in them, part of it fits, but the rest of it is sort of like those airline seats where you can't move the headrest. And when you can't move the headrest, that means that it's like pressing against the back of my headrest so that my chin goes down into the, into my chest. Yeah. I kind of get that feeling that they're hitting the wrong places with the rollers.

No, they make them for you. You might be right, but they make them for you. What you need to do is go to a big and tall brookstones to get one. Yeah, exactly. I do love, I love a chair massage at an airport. If I got time at an airport, I'll pay them any amount of money to, no matter how good or bad the massage therapist is, to get a massage during a layover. That is a, that is an absolute luxury experience. But I think what you're describing, Natalie, is that in these new contemporary ones, especially, you put your your legs and your calves and your feet into these channels and your arms too.

And then there are these airbags that inflate and they kind of trap you in there. And it's a little bit, I mean, if you're prone to claustrophobia, it's a little bit confining. Yes. Yeah. If it's any consolation, the arm bags only pin you on one side of the other. So you always have one arm free. So you're never actually trap, trap per se. But, yeah, it is pressing on your ankles.

It is pressing on your shoulders and one of your arms typically. John, it's only a problem if you're not willing to let a machine go all over you. Yeah, honestly. This is a single arm bag model. Honestly, if you're not willing to let a machine go all over you, what are you doing living in 2026 when we're recording this? I mean, Mike, I mean, this is an older, this is an older massage chair, right? It dates back.

It looks to me by the manual here online to almost 2014. They introduced this model at least. Progress in the industry is pretty glacial. But they have updated a bunch of times. So it's not like that particular model has been discontinued. They just keep adding little bells and whistles, but the bare bones are still there. But yes, I feel you there, Natalie, and it seems like it's a rough chair. Mike, now I understand why you kept going on and on about how, well, you get used to it over a period of time.

This is an intense chair, I acknowledge it, but you get used to it because I was like, who are you talking to? Judge John Hodgman, you know I want an intense chair. feels like you were talking to Natalie kind of trying to reiterate an argument to her. It's like if you just gave it a chance, you'd love it. Am I right or am I wrong? Yeah, you're kind of picking up that there's all sorts of attitudes and perspectives out there that are valid. And a lot of people have embraced what the IT 8500 has to offer. But of course, she's my most important.

Natalie. When you say she, you're refusing to the IT, 500. My massage chairs, John, are like ships. Yeah, that's right. My IT 8500, a whole robot being in its own right. Natalie, what else do you hate about this chair? It's laugh. You can't hear it in any in the videos, but it is kind of loud.

And it's not comfortable to sit in, like, if you're sitting in it and not using it as a massage chair because it's not meant to be. sat in. So for quite a bit of time, it was in, so he and I lived at my parents' house in New Jersey. And that photo with the yellow background is actually in my parents' house. And I think the only other person that would sit in that chair was my mom. She actually enjoyed sitting in it, but she was the only one. And then... She would just sit in it just as a chair is what you're saying. Yes. She would like to sit in it and watch TV. sometimes she'd get one of the dogs on her lap. Yeah.

But now, and then when it got moved, when we were living in our previous home in Jacksonville here, it was just, it ended up becoming just like a storage space, like board games would get stacked on it. How far into your relationship with Natalie did you wait until you revealed that you had a big leather massage chair? Five years? No, you always had it. Yeah, it was kind of hard to hide. So whenever she came over, you know, so. Natalie, you mentioned that the massage chair is rather loud.

And I didn't really get that from the video. Could you do an imitation of the massage chair sound for me, please? It's kind of like soft raspberries, like the, because it's like a pump. because it's air-promp. I'm going to need to ask you to do that a little bit longer so I can really get a sense of it, please. It's like Bert from Sesame Street sleeping. Natalie, you're a very good sport.

Thank you. That actually was a very good impersonation of massage chair. I happen to know. John, have you ever met the actor, Alison Becker? Wonderful comedy actor, Alison Becker. In passing, in person, yes. and then I've recorded podcasts with the wonderful Alison Becker as well. Allison Becker, one of the greatest ladies ever, and one time she was on Jordan

Jesse Go, and we learned that she is like Mike, a massage chair obsessive, which is not something I expected to hear from Allison, but I was thrilled because Allison is a brilliant nerd, and I, like, investigated, we investigated all of the angles of her, of her, like, massage chair research and compulsions, they very much mirror Mike's. And one of the things that Allison brought up is that once you have a massage chair, it's essentially immobile. Like, it's, how much does this massage chair weigh and how many times have you moved it? Yeah, Mike. Yeah. So that's certainly my biggest personal regret is the logistics of, it's a 220 pound. machine this particular model.

It does have some hind wheels on that. You didn't shell out for the featherweight, full-scape model. I was all about the efficacies. Yeah, they needed real machine parts, real rollers, real motor. And I guess that comes with a hefty cost, right? John, this is his one personal regret. He told us, this is one day Mike will be on his deathbed, and his grandchildren will be sitting there holding his hand,

And they'll say, grandfather, you were a doctor. You had a vibrant life. You had a, did a lot of volunteering, whatever. What's your one regret? And he'll, he'll croak out, my massage chair was quite heavy. And then his spirit will leave him and go to heaven. How often do you use it? Yeah, I'll be truthful.

We just kind of moved here and setting up everything. It wasn't the biggest priority. But I have used it twice now. So just recently set it up. He does not use it very often. About four times a year on average. You use this chair four times a year? In the past a lot more.

But it's definitely come down because things get busy. I mean, Natalie, it feels as though it is pretty much out of your life. It's only being used four times a year. It's in the garage near the no pain, no game. station and it is a conversation piece when people come over they want to see it they go out to the garage they give it a whirl they come back in seems to me like the problem solved itself why why do you want to get rid of it i just i i don't want to move it again because it is 200 pounds and this is not our forever home excuse me 220 pounds 220 pounds i'm sorry that's all and it is

moving is not cheap and depending on where we move because why don't I don't know if that's going to be Florida or wherever. I don't want to have to think about it ever again. So you're asking that I rule that when you leave this home, you leave the chair behind. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the rental company would probably charge us if we left it there. So we'd have to figure out somebody to take it. So you're asking me if I'd a rule in your favor that when you leave this home, you get to destroy the chair with an axe.

No, we could give it to somebody who would use it or sell it to somebody who would use it. She does someone have them. She has someone lined up. I do have a friend of Amy who said that she may buy it off of me. But then her husband was like, how are we going to get it in our third floor apartment? Right. Well, that's Amy and her husband's problem, not yours. How much is she offering?

Yeah. I don't know. I told her like 100 bucks if you want it. A hundred bucks for an IT and infatine. Infinity IT 8500? This is a premium model. This is a 220 pounder. That's less than a dollar a pound.

This has single arm action. Single arm action. That's a premium that you've got to pay. Sure. I mean, obviously Mike's one regret in life is he didn't go for the featherweight model, but still, you've got to charge a buck a pound at least, I would say. Mike, how do you feel about the selling to Amy scheme? Is that a fair price, 100 bucks? Well, that was one of the other considerations. As far as letting it go, you don't really get any compensation back. It depreciates pretty rapidly, especially like a 12-year-old chair. So, you know, if I were to get rid of it, it's more of like, you know, the relief of convenience of getting rid of it rather than anything. So, yeah, any monetary recompenses, yeah, it's going to be small. It's a burden like owning a piano.

Mike, would you feel relief if you were to get rid of it? No, I would feel a little bit of a deprivation. What other feelings would you feel? I mean, this is something that you bought for a very specific purpose at a very sort of big time in your life, your graduation from medical school, embarking on your residency. I mean, I presume you used it a lot then.

You got a lot of therapy out of it then, right? Yeah. It was definitely kind of like a part of that milestone of moving on to another stage in life. Being a little bit more made it life satisfaction. Yeah, losing it would kind of hurt me. And, you know, everyone has an appreciation of certain hobbies that are these finely tuned, well-crafted artifacts. And everyone places, you know, in order an amount of value in some of these artifacts that, like, speak to them about. things that you can't really replace. I mean, I guess I could replace it, but I'd have to throw so much

more money on it. I'd probably not buy a massage chair again, really. So, though, though I appreciate that most massage chairs probably have a physical lifespan of 25,000 years. I've never heard one described as an artifact before. John, I feel like what Mike is describing right now is that if he got rid of the massage chair, he would be embarrassed in front of his friends from our slides. slash massage chair on Reddit. Yeah, cross posted to our slash mail living space to boot, I'm sure. Mike, I'm asking you if this is still a part of your life or if this is a part of your past.

If you're not using it more than four times a year, why aren't you ready to let it go? There's all sorts of things in your life that you hold on to that you don't use that frequently. Like, nobody really says, like, my children are gone. for a second. I'm still holding on to them, honestly. I know what you're saying, Mike. Go on. I apologize.

No, you're good. I mean, if I knew the IT 8500 couldn't go off and have its own life. But yeah, all it's destined for is like being a scrap heap at this point, right? Yeah, nobody really questions, like, having a hot tub or having, like, the nice China. Like, we got a China cabinet in the house. So it's always big and bulky. I don't question that. We rarely use that.

That's probably like once or twice here. You know, so there's a lot of like, you know, just big moments that, you know, you don't have to use every week. And it doesn't lose that specialness or that value. And especially now we got like the space for it. So it's even less of a need. Mike, are you suggesting an eye for an eye type resolution of this? or should I say an I for an IT 8500, you get rid of the chair only if she gets rid of her grandmother's China? I would consider that a Pyrrhic victory.

What I see as a good outcome for this judgment, even if it does end up mandating the removal of the chair, it would be just, I guess this would be kind of like a eulogy, or at least contextualizing the value, a good massage here can be and how it can help people maybe understand a little bit more about their body anyway. So even if it ends up getting gone. But, you know, ideally, I just want it to be, hey, you know, we got a reasonable solution here. And one person has their own thing, the other person has their thing, reasonable compromise and all that. So how long, Natalie, do you anticipate staying in this home? So I work from home now and he works at an office at nights.

And as he's required to live within driving distance of the hospital in case he could work from home and answer poison control calls from home. But having somebody working at night while you're sleeping in the same house is not very conducive to things like. sleep and dogs. Only there was some way you could relax during the day. So I don't know, maybe a year or two. It depends. So I can work wherever out of any 50 states. So kind of wherever he lands would be where we end up staying.

Mike, your job is answering poison control calls. Yeah, in a way where like, first responder, 911. So you reach out to the poison control hotline, the national hotline, and then it'll transfer to one of the specialists. And yeah, I'll be fielding calls as well. And that's your job, not just your hobby. Yeah, and I do get paid for that one. I'd like to find out, because I've been doing it as a hobby for a long time.

I hope I'm giving good advice. Usually I just say, you know, eat some saltines, but maybe there's more to it than that. I have people eat aquarium charcoal. So Natalie, you're hoping in a couple of years you'll be able to relocate to another place. And you would like to leave the chair behind at that point, right? Absolutely at that point. You want to get rid of the chair today or you want to wait? I mean, it is very large in the garage.

I mean, I could live with it there. But eventually I would ultimately if I had to come if I had my way, I think finding somebody who would pay maybe a decent price for it and use it more often than Mike uses it would be great. I'm very much of like, I don't like things sitting around and not getting used. So that that would be one situation, but I'd be okay with it sitting there. and then when we move, finding a new home for it. But this is, this will probably be your one chance to appeal to the court of Judge Shum Hodgman. So if the rule, the ideal ruling would be use it or lose it. Yeah.

By lose it, we mean sell it to Amy for a hundred bucks. Yes. Or somebody who would use it more often. And then Mike, I presume you want to be status quo, correct? Yeah, just making it work. And, uh, well, we'll get it. moved. We used moving assistance last time and we'll probably do that again. Natalie, it's in the garage. You have the seating you wanted in the living room. It already feels like you've won to some

degree. Why are you still trying to get rid of this chair? I think more of the space and the fact that I want it to get used by somebody who's going to use it more often because it's just sitting there. right now. And I just don't like the idea of things sitting when they could be useful to somebody else. It's your garage too. When you go out there and you see this chair, how does it make you feel? I'm annoyed that I may trip over it. To be honest. Yeah. Well, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I am going to go, hey, Joel, is there a massage chair here at W.E.R.U. In Orlando, right? In my office. All right. I'm going to go take a 75-minute massage. be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Mike, how are you feeling about your chances right now? I know 100%. I'm always impressed by John's judgments about my side of the case, about keeping it without any compromise. I guess not that great, but I feel like somehow to be able to find a way to manage keeping it. Natalie, how about you?

How are you feeling? I feel like the judge understands space constraints in small spaces and that large things that aren't getting used should not take up space and that they can find better homes. What are you going to do with that $100? Probably buy more board games. I'm grateful for your honesty. We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just moment. It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast, and we are taking a quick break. John, can I just

recommend an interview that the just is current on the Bullseye with Jesse Thorne NPR program that I host? No, you may not. Oh, I changed my mind. I hope you will, because I love Bullseye. What's going on? It's an interview with the artist, Judy Chicago. Judy Chicago is probably best known for her work, The Dinner Party, which is at the Brooklyn Museum in Brooklyn, New York City. It is a huge, I mean, it's like a huge room with a table that is triangle shaped, also shaped vaguely like certain parts of a lady's body. Elbow. It's a table setting for 39 people and the 39 people are important women from the history

of the world. And each table setting is special to that woman and her place in history, including all the elements, like specially made. uh, China and everything. And it's an incredible piece, but she also, among other things, is a fireworks artist. Whoa. She has worked for decades in fireworks. She loves smoke particularly.

Um, and, uh, just she's, I don't know, 85 or something like that, 84. And she's a corker. Like she is a piece of work. It's like such a genius, such a delightful, hilarious woman who, uh, mocks her. detractors in a high-pitched voice in a way that I wish all famous professional legendary artists would. And I really hope that people will take the time to listen to because one of those where, like, Judy Chicago is not Tom Hanks in terms of name recognition, but it was such a great interview. You can find it on the Bullseye with Jesse Thorne YouTube, or by subscribing to

Bullseye with Jesse Thorne in your favorite podcast app. And I really recommend that you check it out. Look, Cape Burlant and John Early as well this week, but go listen to that Judy Chicago interview because it's really a delight. Jesse, I listen to Bullseye each and every week, and you know who else does? Remember when I took you to that basement pub here in Maine and Rachel attended bar? Yeah. She's a bullseye listener, too, turns out. Really? Everyone on the peninsula is horny for thorny, I'll tell you.

But I'll tell you what, since I am here in Maine, I cannot stop recommending that you please check out WERU FM. It's 89.9 on your frequency modulation dial if you are near the solar powered studios here in Orland, Maine and within receiving distance. If you're not, worry not, you can go to wERU.org and listen to the live stream 24 hours a day. 24 hours a day? 24. 24, says Joel. Used to be 23. Now it's 24.

With your support, they've upped their broadcasting by one hour, and they do need your support. Like so many, not just public NPR stations, but so many small community radio stations like WERU, one of the last true freeform community stations in the world, as far as I know. They lost a lot of support when the Corporation for Public Broadcasting was summarily executed, and as a result, they need your support now. Go to wERU.org to listen, and if you want to become a member, their membership drive, is starting when, Joel? August 1st. August 1st, couldn't be more timely. So please go to w-eru.org. I listen to it every evening at home. I discover new things every time I listen and I enjoy old

favorites like Joe Bird in the Field Hiffies 19 times a day. That's not true. It's more than just Joe Bird and the Field Hippies. It's one of the most eclectic radio stations that I've ever listened to my life. It's a real delight. And by the way, speaking of Maine, Jesse Thorne did post that wonderful video of our journey on the Grace Bailey historic schooner out of Rockland, Maine. I will be rendezvousing with the Grace Bailey when it comes into port this September. It's going to gam up.

It's going to tie up with a bunch of other beautiful schooners. It's an amazing event, and it happens in September in the Cove of the Wooden Boat School in Brooklyn, Maine, if you happen to know that town. It's happening from September 13th to 19th. I'm not sure exactly when they will be coming into port. I will not be on board the ship, but I will come aboard when they are in port, and I will come and say hello to you if you're on the ship, and I will probably do some reading from Moby Dick and or Vacation Land or both, and just enjoy some good company fellowship and a scritch session with Fiji the Cat. Please go to sailgracebailey.com for details on that and all of their sailings. It's a truly magical experience.

And Joel, man, you will be performing every Tuesday night until through. the fall even. Yep, Columbus Day. Through Indigenous People's Day. Yep. At the Pentagon Inn in Castine, Maine every Tuesday evening with the night and day jazz trio. That's a Joel Mann laying down bass. Mr. O on the reeds and the, and just the reeds, right? Yeah. Right. Fluid. Okay, flute also. The Woodwinds, shall we say. Yeah, Woodwinds. And Chris Pullen on the guitar, right? And vocals. And vocals as well. Night and Day jazz trio. You've seen them at the state theater in Portland, Maine with Judge John Hodgman,

now see them on the porch of the Pentegoate in. That's all the news from Maine, as they say. Jesse, shall we get back into the case? Indeed. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. Good news, listeners and viewers of Judge John Hodgman. Our new gavel has been painstakingly crafted for us by the good folks at Offerman Woodshop under the, under the, the, uh, the, the beetled brow of Nick Offerman himself has been completed. And we are now arranging for shipping of said gavel to me, your judge John Hodgman. It's going to take a minute or two because it weighs 220 pounds. But I'm just joking, of course.

Uh, but this week as we wait for the gavel, I will be throwing the book at one of you today. The book being this issue of the Paris review brand new. still mint in the cellophane. I don't even know who's featured in this summer 2026 issue, but I will be sending it to whoever wins this case after I use it as a substitute gavel. Another banger of the Paris Review, literally going to bang it as a gavel, edited by the great Emily Stokes, and I love being a subscriber to this, and you should be too.

But before I bang this banger, I have to rule on the case. So nothing in my heart. There is nothing in my heart that wants more than to offer you money to take this thing off of your hands. I've one of one of these massage chairs for so long. Every time I get into one, usually in an airport, I'm like, this would make my life as a medical student or a residency, a resident. on a 24-hour rotation as I work in my other job being in the pit. Not on the pit. Not a doctor.

But you know what I mean. I have someone who suffers from chronic back tension all the time. Whenever I get, you know what, this afternoon, the reason I was thinking about this is I'm driving over to the Bangor International Airport after this to pick up David Reese who's visiting me here. I'm going to work together on a secret project here in Maine. and am I going to put $10 into that one of those massage chairs? You know I am.

Anytime I get a chance to see what I have all this goes back. Talk about a trip through time. Talk about a memory of a past life. Like when of an evening in the 1980s when I was a teen, my miscreant friends and I would go and visit Quincy Market in Boston. Of course I'd be going down there to the sharper image store. Yet in that massage chair, just let it do its thing for a few minutes

until I got chased out of there. That was the only bad thing I ever did as a kid. It chased the sharper image store for using the massage machine. But then when I think back of all these wonderful times that I've used a massage chair, I realized I've only ever done it in a public space. Because at the end of the day, I can't have that thing in my private space. all massage chairs, and I say this with great affection to you, good Dr. Mike, all massage chairs look dumb. At least they don't look like something I would want to have in my house.

Even in my basement, even if I had a two-car garage. I think that I would approach that thing, me personally. I'm speaking personally now, Dr. Mike, don't worry. I know what this means to you, but I'm saying to me, my greatest. great, great love and affection and desire and covetousness that really tempts me to offer you $101 for that massage chair. Not only would I get a massage chair, but I would get to make Amy feel bad for underbidding you. I can't do it. I can't do it.

I'm tense thinking about it right now. I want to go relax somewhere. I guess I'll do it at the airport. they are a very specific kind of furniture that cannot be described. I can't tell you how long I've been waiting for a massage chair that looks like a piece of furniture I would like to have in my home. But Natalie's absolutely right. Not only does it not look like a piece of furniture

you may or may not want to have in your home because of whatever your design aesthetic is. Frankly, I think a home that's got a couple of hundred board games and it looks like a massage chair home to me, but that's me. But it also doesn't look like a regular chair, especially this one. It truly looks like a full-blown escape pod. I get it. I understand Natalie's resistance to this.

What I don't understand is Mike's resistance to it. Four times a year. Look, an obvious solution to this would be hire someone to take this massage chair out of your home and put it into a storage locker somewhere where you personally. where you personally can visit it, Mike, four times a year. You'd get the same functionality of it. And frankly, it might even be prettier than your current garage inside of a storage unit.

You could just go out there. It could be like your bat cave or your... I mean, air conditioned. Yeah, it might even be air conditioned out there. You'd be, but then you'd be paying for that expense quite a bit. I mean, storage units are their own expense, especially the AC ones. Tell me about it. I got to go buy our storage unit up there on the Bangor Road later. So what I don't understand is why you're not, you've got, we've got a, still got a stressful job.

You're holding people's lives in your hands. You are doing incredible work responding to people who are in crisis. You're doing your seven days on and not seven days on, seven nights on. Why are you not visiting your massage chair more frequently? the only thing I can think of, like, you know, Mike, you've made a great argument for massage chairs. And I think that they make a lot of sense for people who can't or don't have access

to a professional masseur or masseuse from, you know, physical therapists. You know, they can offer a lot of relief as they did to you in an earlier time in your life. So why aren't you, why aren't you going to visit it now? I don't know your mind better than you know your own mind, Mike. or your schedule for that matter. And look, I'm also the kind of person who hangs on to things.

Some things have real sentimental value. And while you stare down your nose at Natalie's Grandmast, China, that is a classic example of sentimental value, right? Like an inherited, an heirloom, China said, from a beloved grandmother, is almost the dictionary definition of sentimental value that is greater than practical use, right? But that doesn't mean you don't have sentimental attachment to this chair. It represents a time in your life. And I'm a holder on to her as well.

I was, we just dropped some, we just dropped some canned goods off to the food pantry in our town here. And I literally had to be like, do I really want to let go of this can of beans? This is one of my last cans of Stuart Sheld beans. I don't know where to get them anymore. But letting go is an important part of life. And knowing when to let go a part of your life that is no longer active, that requires some real insight and some discipline. And I think, you know, the body keeps the score.

Your robot massage chair will tell you. The body keeps the score. And the fact that you're not visiting it more than four, four times a year, even though it's right there in the garage next to your equipment, suggest to me that your body is trying to let you know, it's time to let go of the chair. Now, those four times a year, when you get in that chair, I know the robot is whispering, it's you and me, Mike, forever. You never let me go. I'm sorry, I can't do that, Mike. I'm closing the garage door forever. That's what the robot is

telling you. But your body is telling you, if you don't need it, that it's, almost time to let it go. Now, if this were your forever home, my ruling might be different. But since it is not your intention to live forever in Jacksonville, and there is a move coming up in the two to three year mark, my ruling is you may keep the chair in the garage until you move, but only if you use it at least once a week. Natalie's distaste for things that are unused is reasonable to me.

And if you want to, you know what they say. If you don't use it, you'll lose it. If you don't want to lose this thing, get out there. Let it do its stuff to you. Let it beat you up a little bit until you get nice and tender again. And by the time you move, you're ready to say, all right, Amy, take this thing off my hands. It's now worth $7, but you can have it.

until then, if you want to keep it, you got to use it. And put some totes in the attic and make that garage, you know, finish moving into your garage. So that Natalie, your beloved, doesn't have to worry about tripping over that thing and falling into its mechanical mawn being chewed up, which it clearly wants to do. This is the sound of the Paris Review being used as a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Mike, how are you feeling about this decision? Yeah, I think it's tough.

The prospect of letting it go. Definitely a big part of my, I guess my old life. And yeah, I don't really use it that often. Maybe I should use it more often. I am afraid about, you know, as I get older, am I going to get more back pain? Am I going to rely on getting a misuse every week now? But at this point in my life, it sounds reasonable to me to have like an action plan about seeing what it's really doing right now for me,

which is good to interrogate with all the things in your life. Natalie, how are you feeling? Good. I'm really happy that it's going to get used. I think it will be happy that it will be used by somebody. and not just sitting there and use and get their garage a little bit more usable. Hopefully, we'll do it at night when it's cooler. Natalie, Mike, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you.

Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. Folks, the Judge John Hodgman podcast relies on your cases. Yeah, for example, if you've got a massage chair, you need some electricity for it to run. Or put it this way. If you got a massage chair and you don't got a knot in your shoulders, you're not doing anything. We need some of your knots. We need some of your tension.

We need some of your disputes. Now, here we are. In the middle of summer, before you know it, we're going to be dusting off our Halloween supplies for the fall. I start decorating on July 31st myself. Here's some last-minute summer questions for you. Do you need it to be hot outside to enjoy nice coffee? Can you enjoy iced coffee in the dead of winter? If you're from New England, don't write me because I know you freaks drink ice coffee all year long.

Which is better as a fall drink? Pumpkin spice latte or a hot mold apple cider. How a weekend celebrations are becoming more common. I guess that means having the party on Halloween, the weekend around Halloween, not Halloween itself. Is that okay? Is it wrong to dress up in a costume when it is not? not Halloween. I say yes. Or do you need a second costume for Halloween weekend? What if you dress up as a Babaduke, but it's more of an adults hanging out and drinking wine vibe,

as Katie Diplode once tweeted. Perfect. Perfect example. And thanks to Katie Diplold, I told you on Instagram and I'll tell you now, I love Widows Bay. I've just finished it. It was so great. By the way, if you do need a second costume for Halloween weekend. You could be Babaduke for Halloween and Marmaduke for the weekend. Send us all your fall fights, your hot takes, or let's say not your hot takes, but your cool, cool, chill evening takes, the cool, the crisp coolness of fall takes and uncommon opinions at maximum fun.org slash JJHO.

There's a simple form you can fill out there. If you prefer to email me directly, you are welcome to do so. I'm simply Hodgman at maximum fund.org. I see all of the emails and all the forms you submit. And I'm always grateful for them. And I guess you to hear all kinds of cases, right, Jesse? Indeed. You know, John, Marmaduke is one of those easy last-minute Halloween costumes.

Yeah. All you need is go to the butcher and get yourself a nine-foot length of sausages. Yeah. You know what I hate is that around Halloween time, you see all those knock-off costumes. You know what I mean? Like instead of, instead of, Instead of Super Mario brother, you see Italian jumping plumber or whatever. And I don't want to see, look, if you're going to do a Marmaduke costume, go buy the brand name Marmaduke costume, okay?

I don't want to see any of these Howard Hughes out there. You know what I mean? I don't want to see any Howard Hughes. One time Jordan was at my house and he's like, can I use the microphone real quick? I got to record an audition for the Marmaduke movie. Our thanks to Redator A-Cone 419 for naming this week's episode. Join us on Reddit, R-Slas Maximum Fun. Evidence and photos from the show are on our Instagram.

That's Judge John Hodgman. You can find us on TikTok and YouTube, Judge John Hodgman Pod. John, you see that little TikTok and Instagram video that I made of our trip on the Grace Bailey? It was so wonderful. Yes, Jesse's making content. Go over to Jessica Thorne very famous. I'm sure that we share and collaborate with the Judge Sean Hodgman main account. Just subscribe to all of it because, Jesse, you're making some beautiful, fun, funny content.

And that was a wonderful highlight reel of our trip through the Pinobscot Bay on the historic Grace Bailey Schooner. Thank you for doing that. Go check it out. Go check the video of me and John Candlepin Bowling. That's right. And we also have a video of us taste testing strange flavors of potato chips that I picked up at Pugnuts ice cream shop here in, in Maine. So there's a lot of fun over there on our social media. Go get on that TikTok, get on that Instagram. Get on the YouTube. Will you please? We have whole episodes on YouTube.

What's our YouTube comment of the week? Very good question, Jesse. As you know, we have posted full episodes of all of our shows on our YouTube channel at Judge John Hodgman pod. And we always select a YouTube comment of the week. This week's YouTube comment of the week comes from our episode about road trips called Road Rules. And we have so many wonderful comments in there about road trips gone wrong. It's a real fun read over there. But our YouTube comment of the week comes specifically from viewer Margaret Wiatrowski. Hope I'm saying that correctly.

Thanks for using what seems like a real name is your user handle on YouTube. And Margaret wrote, When I was in college in the early 2000s, I drove back and forth several times between Madison, Wisconsin, and the Bay Area. I always took my 1997 VW Jetta, which was a lemon. I had a giant boombox running on batteries in the backseat because the radio had stopped working. Car would overheat all the time and we'd try to vent the engine by turning the interior heat on, including the time we drove through Death Valley.

Oh, my God. Imagine running the heat. That's not good. Back at school in Madison, squirrels nested under the hood one winter and chewed a hole in the battery. Woof. Holy cow. 1997 was the golden age of the Volkswagen Jetta, wouldn't you say? I learned to drive a manual transmission on Anna Henschman's probably 1991 VW Jetta, and I still remember loving that car and probably destroying it.

So that was a lot of fun. 1997 is like rough. That's just about the era of that Mr. Roboto commercial that had Tony Hale in it before Tony Hale. Talk about an obscure cultural reference. Boy, oh boy. Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This episode engineered at Studio Podcast Suites in Jacksonville and by Joel Mann at WERU in Orlando, Maine.

Megan Rosati runs our social media, the podcast edited by AJ McKeon, our video editor, Daniel Spear, our producer, Jennifer Marmer. You ready for some swift justice, John? I am ready to judge swiftly. Mod. 07 on the Maximum Fun Subreddit says, I started my culinary career at a funky cafe in the late 1980s. My sister came in for a sandwich once and demanded a fork for the few pieces of cabbage and grated carrots on the side of the plate.

I told her it was just a garnish and denied her the fork. She still lamb-based me about it 38 years later should I have given her a fork. Maudeau-O-7, I don't care how funky your cafe is, or how annoying your sister is for wanting a fork for her garnish. There's still such a thing as customer service. If she asked you nicely, give her a fork and eat your own cabbage with your fingies. That's with justice. We need your disputes. send them to us at maximum fun.org slash JJHO. We will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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