Judge John Hodgman - Fright Court

Episode Date: October 20, 2021

Jessie files suit against her husband Carter. Carter says he grew up in a haunted house. But Jessie doesn’t believe him! Who's right? Who's wrong?Thank you to Steve Ciabattoni for naming this week��s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow us on Twitter for naming opportunities: @JesseThorn & @Hodgman. Or keep track using the Twitter hashtag #JJHoCaseNames. 

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bill of Jesse Thorne. This week, Fright Court. Jesse files suit against her husband, Carter. Carter says he grew up in a haunted house, but Jesse doesn't believe him. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Are there ghosts? Or aren't there ghosts? Wouldn't you really like to know? ghost once, or I think I did, and it frightened me so much as it approached my bedside that when I screamed, no sound came out of my mouth. Mysteries have always intrigued me to the point where I am determined to solve them.

So, like Don Quixote, I set out on a quest in New England to see if I could unravel the mystery of the hauntings. the mystery of the hauntings. Accompanying me on most of these sojourns was Brian the Monk, a lay Franciscan who did a remarkable job of capturing some of these elusive spirits on film. But Odyssey wasn't as much frightening as it was fascinating. We did, however, have a few creepy experiences as well as a few laughs.

And we listened to many podcasts. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. Whatever. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling,

despite the fact that the show is now over? He spent the entire time doing that obscure cultural reference. Yes. I could go on. I could go on. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed in your normal voice, please.

Carter and Jesse, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I was direct quoting from until the very end when I made a reference to podcasts, which is non-contemporaneous with this piece of culture? Jesse, not Jesse Thorne, Jesse Litigant. Jesse with an I. You can hear me pronounce it differently, right? Jesse versus Jesse.

Obviously, I'm talking to you, Jesse. Why don't you guess first um i'm going to guess the haunted mansion at disneyland haunted mansion at where you're waiting in the line of course yeah it's always my way out the stretching room they call it i like that guess's a good guess. I'm putting in the book. It's a dusty old cobwebby book because Halloween is approaching. All right, Carter, what's your guess? Based on the region that we're talking about in this podcast and some of the spooky nature of that area, Providence in general. We're talking about New England.

New England. Rhode Island specifically, by the way, Carter, which is where you're from. Thank you for representing Little Rhodey. Small state, big heart. What'd you say? Small state, big heart. Small state, big heart. Wow.

Is that a motto that I don't know? Excellent. It's not really. All right. Carter's here pitching Rhode Island mottos. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Of course.

I don't know if you guys have heard about some of their marketing tactics, but I think they could use that. You remember this little tune? The biggest little state in the union, Rhode Island, Rhode Island, come and see. That was on television a lot when I was growing up. Yeah, that's classic. I was like, no, I'm not going down there.

So you can't get me to go down there. You're missing out, I think. No, I'm going to say maybe Edgar Allan Poe, so you can't get me to go down there you're missing out i think um exactly no uh i'm gonna say maybe edgar allen poe but i mean or because he he spent some time in providence or there's i don't think edgar allen poe drove around with a lay francis was there driving that uh darn it photos guys let's talk this through more all right right. I'm going to say H.G. Lovecraft, the horror writer who wrote Out of Providence. It's definitely not H.G. Lovecraft. You might be thinking of Howard Phillips Lovecraft, H.P. Lovecraft, the famous Providencian horror writer and racist.

No, this was a book, and I'm going to show it to you here on our teleconference, called Haunted Happenings by Robert Ellis Cahill, one of a whole series of slender little books that are sold up there in Maine at the Perry's Nuthouse, including Witchards and Wizards, Closely Haunts, Marvelous Monsters, Mad and Mysterious Men, Strange Sea Sagas, Finding New England Shipwrecks, Visitors from Outer Space, and Naughty Navy. That one, I think, probably is not for kids. men's strange sea sagas finding new england shipwrecks visitors from outer space the and naughty navy that one i think probably it's not for kids uh it's just a piece of junky old book that i got robert ellis cahill with and it features new photos of old ghosts the person i was

impersonating of course is the great new york city storyteller famous on the moth and downtown fixture of New York theater and storytelling, Edgar Oliver. Check him out. Go check out Edgar Oliver on your YouTube and you will see that he is a different kind of person. But here we are now to hear this case. Who seeks justice in this court? Is it you, Jessie, with an I? Yes, it is me. What is the nature of your dispute carter has uh long contended that he grew up in a haunted house and i have two problems one the evidence is sketchy at best and two he doesn't believe in an afterlife so how can you believe in hauntings

right it just doesn't jive. This is very exciting so far. Carter, Jesse feels that there isn't strong evidence that the house you grew up in is haunted. Unlike all those other case closed, obviously haunted houses with absolutely no subjective interpretation possible. They're definitely haunted. The proof is there. You grew up in Rhode Island. Yes. Tell me about your haunted house.

So I grew up on Halsey Street, which is right off of Benefit Street on the east side of Providence. Okay. And it was actually two homes that shared a wall and the front was at 25. Like a duplex. Yeah yeah i know what you're talking about though like not not exactly a row home because the houses are butt to butt

kind of the famous butt to butt homes of providence hip to butt i would say would be and i lived on the hip side um but because the because it was on a corner so you have the front of the house which is 25 benefit street. And then you have just up on the corner there, you have hall seven Halsey street where I lived. Uh, and you know, I would say there was definitely some very, uh, haunting aspects of the home. Um, if you guys have ever, folks have ever been into a situation where you kind of feel something that hair on the back of your neck can rise up there were there were multiple how did you know

i had only one hair on the back of my neck well i can give you a few if you want to borrow a couple you can um yeah but so so that feeling uh permeated the house in a lot of ways, especially in the basement. And especially at certain times of year, you would kind of feel this spookiness, that hauntingness, especially when you were on your own, if there weren't other people around. And so, related to that. So, this was the reason I talked about the front of the house is because it was at one point owned by the Unitarian Church and was a house of worship, but also education for some of the underserved of the community before they renovated it into two different homes as it is today. And the church decided they didn't want to own it after the grisly murders? Yeah.

This is the most unusual part of the argument. The hair on the back of the neck, that is a classic haunting symptom. Right. I would not argue that the Unitarians are the spookiest of people who could have previously owned the house. Well, if you said it was an abattoir before or something, you're like, no, people were meeting together and embracing the good news about all faiths. Hey, Jesse, do you know about a Unitarian exorcism? Do you know how that goes? How does it go, John?

If there's a young person possessed by the devil, you just go into the room and you read the New York Times. young person possessed by the devil you just go into the room and you read the new york times read the op-ed section of the new york times quietly to yourself i'm looking at your home using not using my mental psychic powers i am actually looking at your own yeah i'll tell you this story later maybe i'll maybe i won't bailiff Jesse Thornwithout and I, remind me about my psychic powers later, okay? I'll try. Okay. Just send me a, you know, but don't say anything about it. Just send me a message psychically.

Thank you. This is a spooky looking home. Did it have a purple door when you were growing up? It did, actually. My mother picked that. Really? And that's maintained. So, I mean, we left there, you were growing up? It did, actually. My mother picked that. Really? And that's maintained. So, I mean, we left there, you know, in the mid-90s.

Fantastic. And now it is going to become a shrine and point of pilgrimage for Judge John Hodgman fans all around the region. No, seriously. This is a private home now owned by someone else. Yeah. Go focus on that one Wendy's that John likes. You just, you know, make a day of it. You could probably go, hang on, let me see how far this is away.

You open this door. This purple door. You open this purple door to the Wendy's in Stard. It's only a 53-minute drive. You could do this whole thing in an afternoon. All the important points of New England. Wendy's on Turnpike Road in Southborough, Massachusetts, 7 Halsey Street, Providence, Rhode Island.

I'll see you there. Okay. It is a classic New England home that, like many, looks like it could be haunted. You describe a weird feeling. Were you the only one in your family who felt this way about it? Or were there others? No, no, no, no.

So I live there with my mother and brother. And they can also corroborate the spooky nature of the home. My mother talks about how the ghost, as she called it, arrived generally around Christmas time. I'm sorry, what did she call the ghost? She calls it a arrived generally around christmas time i'm sorry what did she what did she call the ghost she calls it a friendly ghost actually oh okay uh you know i was kind of loving your mom for just calling it the ghost but now friendly so okay it's not that's good it's better than vengeful ghost she has a name for the friendly ghost his name is clarence uh which is an homage to it's a wonderful life uh because he arrives around Christmas time. And I mean. Clarence, the guardian angel in It's a Wonderful Life.

Yep. And I think she did that because we were, I mean, we were very small. We moved in when we were like four and probably out when we were, you know, I think I was like 12 or 13. Right. And she was like, oh, you know, don't worry. It's Clarence, you know. It's Clarence, the friendly ghost.

Mm-hmm. And that Japanese girl who lives in the attic, his neck is broken and comes down the stairs like a spider. That's a Zuzu with her little pedals in her pocket. Exactly. Exactly. So the way that I remember the ghost is it would arrive around Christmas time with, you know, like appliances turning on and off. Um, we had, you know we had christmas lights that would turn on and off and i i know that's fairly typical with christmas lights and old electrical outages and stuff right we also had old houses yeah old houses but we also had a tv that would come on and off uh and we also even had a radio that would in the basement which was the epicenter of the the

hauntedness obviously for us uh that would come on and off and uh you know that radio had had no batteries in it right and i swear it was also not plugged in um when it when it was happening that's my recollections which is extremely spooky right yeah no i'm i'm feeling that for sure and first of all tell me about the basement is there a rec room down there finished basement or so we yeah we had this little yeah like basically rec playroom down there for like skateboarding and rollerblading and stuff like that and yeah um we would me and my brother would go down there a lot and that's where you would if you were down there even with somebody else you would feel like there was somebody something you were being watched or something right the ghost was watching you do all your sweet skateboard tricks yes exactly

jesse you don't know this but in in not a lot of new england homes especially the older ones have basements but when they do they're mostly half pipes caught it yeah yeah i'm surprised so the radio would come on on and off the radio would come on and off. The radio would come on and off. The TV would come on and off on the first floor. The Christmas lights would come on. Why am I saying come on and off? Is that a Rhode Island thing that I'm picking up off of you?

I don't think so. It's probably just me. Turn off and on. Turn off and on. Yeah, they would turn off and on. Yeah. Look, I grew up in Brookline, okay? I got brains like Andy Kaufman. I'm from Brookline. Turn off and on. Come. Look, I grew up in Brookline, okay? I got brains like Andy Kaufman.

I'm from Brookline. Turn off and on. Come on and off, though. I like that. Maybe that's a regionalism. I like it. Yeah, I don't know if it is. But yeah, it could be.

The other side of that, the hauntingness, was on a couple of occasions where my brother and I are roughhousing or fighting and my mother is trying to like rein us in. And when she would do that, she would be like, you know, like, come on, you know, break it up or yelling at us to lay off. And then the house was also full of pictures of our family. My mom comes from a big family there, you know, then they've been in rhode island for ages uh and the the second floor of the house had a hallway with a bunch of pictures um and pictures would fall off the wall but only pictures of me and my brother and so we'd be roughhousing downstairs mom would be yelling trying to gain some control and then our pictures would fall off the wall yeah but but carter you

were roughhousing yeah it's right there in the name you were being rough on the house rough you were shaking the house from the foundations you two rhode island kids going at each other roughhousing but it would be but the fact that it's only your photos falling off the wall yeah why were why were the other photos not falling i have to say something jesse with an eye you've been admirably restrained i appreciate that only your photos falling off the wall. Yeah, why were the other photos not falling? I have to say something. Jessie, with an eye, you've been admirably restrained. I appreciate that.

Thank you. But it is time to turn to you for your take on all of this. What do you have to say? Well, one point I would make about the pictures falling off is that his mom tends to just have a lot of pictures of her sons everywhere. Like almost exclusively her sons. We went, she calls them her perfect sons, which they are.

They're wonderful. But like we went to a small little beach cottage and she brought framed pictures from her house to the beach, like vacation cottage. So to say that only their pictures fell off would just be to say that pictures fell off. Right. It's only their pictures. There were other pictures on that wall.

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Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Jesse, have you ever been in this house? No, I've only been driven by this house. But, you know, I wasn't around when Carter was 10. Do you believe in haunted houses? No. I believe in the fun

of a staged haunted house, which is part of why I'm here. But, no, I don't believe in real hauntings. Okay. You don't believe in g-g-g-g-ghosts? No, I don't. All right.

Carter, did you ever consider, or Jesse, did you ever consider that Clarence the Friendly Ghost might be something your mom made up to entertain you? Yes. Thank you, Jesse. Carter, did you ever entertain that thought? Yes, I did.

And on my side of that is that it was incredibly spooky in that house. So, you know, that wouldn't be a good form of entertainment. It would be a- Confirming your worst fears. Yeah, it spooked the heck out of me for a really long time. And so you would feel that, and that doesn't seem like, that's not the way my mom operates, or I think the way she would want the friendly ghost to operate. Carter, did you have any reason to ascribe this spookiness that you felt to any particular thing other than the past presence of Unitarian?

to any particular thing other than the past presence of Unitarians. Well, so I want to be clear. Like I was trying to set a picture of the history of the home, right? It was built, you know, 150 years, 1835 or something, you know, like obviously it's an old New England home. And, you know, there's just a lot of life that's happened in homes like that. Right. I'm not blaming the Unitarians whatsoever because i think they're lovely uh but uh i you know i was saying that more is like i mean it's

an old church right like there's got to be some spooky factor in that right we're just going to leave that on the floor or should we consider it so you're thinking maybe the ghost of jesus please excuse the blasphemy of my bailiff because Because Jesse comes in here, Jesse with an I comes in here saying, you don't believe in an afterlife. Is that correct, Carter? I have a hard time proving that there's an afterlife to myself. Yes. Right.

Hey, guess what? Join the club would you describe yourself uh as an agnostic i try not to sit on too many fences so no i would not consider myself an agnostic all right would you consider yourself an atheist i guess i mean i i'm more closely aligned with atheism probably than any of those other you know uh isms yeah or sets of beliefs his primary belief is not to sit on fences which is also just not accurate oh go on this is part of what i contend so um carter went to a small liberal arts college in a Dempsey's hometown. You may have heard of it.

Lewiston, Maine. Go Bob. Yes. Gates College. Gates College. Yeah. And Carter's a rhetoric and philosophy major. And so like he lives his life on fences.

He lives to argue every point in the world. That's his fun. That's his pastime. It's part of why I think he likes telling this story which is like hey i don't i don't believe in ghosts but also i grew up in a haunted house let's debate so let's debate carter let you know i don't mean to pin you down exactly on what ism you are well just one more i have to ask satanism you're into satan right big time okay big time hail satan but you don't believe in ghosts and yet you claim to grow up in a haunted house. You present your argument for how that could be.

Yeah. So I don't necessarily think the belief in an afterlife has to be tied to the belief in a haunted house, right? There are a million different scenarios or situations where there could be an unexplainable event or thing or experience within this space, this home that I lived in. Right. That is not necessarily tied to, you know, what happens to my consciousness or whatever after I, you know, bite the dust. Right. It could be anything. And haunting does not necessarily mean afterlife. And it doesn't necessarily mean, you know, that I have to believe in any sort of ism.

It just means that I was in this place. There was this really spooky factor. There were these events that occurred. And there was this feeling that I think most people understand. It aligns as closely as anything as I can with a haunting. Sure. If I may interrupt you just for a moment to quote from Haunted Happenings by Robert Ellis Cahill. Possibly what are thought to be hauntings are merely the residue of intense emotions

placed in a spot or specific place many years before even einstein convinced other scientists that energy cannot die and you and i carter our energy does that sum up basically the argument ah yeah i mean it's not too far away from well. Well, no, I mean, it just goes to show this was published in 1992. 1992. Carter, you're saying that the house was haunted, but not by ghosts? Ghosts. I'm looking at the dictionary. Ghosts are defined as spooky spirits who used to be alive, but now they're dead.

Merriam-Webster dictionary defines ghosts as spooky spirits who used to be alive, but now they're dead. Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines ghosts as spooky spirits who used to be alive that are also sandwiches. What is haunting if it's not ghosts? That's what ghosts do, and that's what haunting is. I mean, as Judge John Hodgman was just talking about, it's energy, right? It could be energy of a different reality touching our reality it could be a dimensional traveler yeah exactly maybe we're talking about you know some sort of you know like

interstellar mr mitzvah piddalick well well pronounced jesse thorne that was incredible i've it's taken me 50 years to get that down i still only get it 50 of the time he's a trickster bad guy from superman that lives in another dimension. Yeah, he comes around and he causes all kinds of shenanigans and Superman has to get him to say his name backwards to go back to his other dimension. It could be a mix of piddling.

He's probably a Unitarian. Jesse, these all seem like very compelling arguments for why Carter might've gotten spooked out in his basement half pipe when the radio came on. I feel like we weren't listening to the same stuff. Like it just doesn't seem that compelling to me. Well, just to say that it just I think that is that his argument that what we term as hauntings might be some phenomenon that is beyond our understanding or perception, but is not necessarily dead people. My theory of ghosts, of course,

are time travelers from the distant future who are coming back to observe us, but they get the wardrobe wrong because they feel like everyone dresses like gangsters or whatever, or like cowboys. Yeah. I like that one. Yeah, it's pretty good, right?

Yeah, I mean, I would say this is the first time that i've heard this argument so this all started when we first started dating and he told me this story and i said oh do you believe in god and he said no and i said do you believe in an afterlife and he said no and i said so these are ghosts and he said yes and i said well how do you believe in an afterlife and not or not believe in an afterlife and believe in ghosts? And so this is new. He has evolved his belief in what this could be. This was when you first started dating?

Yeah. Did he break out the haunted house on the first date? I don't think it was the first date. Jesse likes scary stuff and I don't like scary stuff. So I had to break it out pretty early to avoid the haunted houses going to or the scary movies I got you now the second question I have is this is the first day or early dating now you're married how long have you been together since that first dating nine years nine years and this is the first time you've heard the interdimensional traveler thesis yes carter you got to do better that's not true well jesse you like scary stuff you said so yourself what's your favorite scary movie um i i really like scream yeah it's a great one because it's like great camp and yeah it's

super fun i love all the scream movies in fact I think that's probably my favorite. Do you like ghost movies? I like anything scary, which is part of the problem is that like Carter won't watch scary movies. It's almost Halloween and we have all of these like really great haunted houses and outdoor haunted trails and we can't go to them because he's scared.

Why? Because of the trauma of growing up on Halsey Road? Apparently. I do use that as one of my many reasons. I do not like ghost movies whatsoever. And haunted houses, that amount of adrenaline or whatever it is, the feeling from that just drives high anxiety. Not good times for me. But he'll watch Interstellar.

He's not like scared of interdimensional travel. I never saw Interstellar. Oh, sorry. Spoiler alert, I guess. I didn't really watch the end. I fell asleep. He told me about it. he's not like scared of interdimensional travel i never saw interstellar oh sorry spoiler alert i guess i didn't really watch the end i fell asleep he told me about it i did i but from what i've heard from what i've heard about that movie it's not a real adrenaline pumper no no i would not say so no but like so so he's not scared of that but he is scared of ghosts you are demanding a certain emotional consistency from your partner. Yes. That I think by having been with him for nine years, you should know is never going to happen.

Jesse, do you think that Carter tells this story to impress people to pretend to be someone perhaps braver than he is? I have a couple of theories. One is that, I'm going to get in trouble. People of New England, 30% of their personality is talking about the weather or complaining about the weather. And so when they move out to San Diego, where it's beautiful and sunny all the time, they have to fill that 30%.

And so a lot of them just fall back to like talking about the funny nuances of New England. Not that anybody on this- Why would you ever, I've never heard such a thing. Is that a thing that happened? Jesse Thorne, back me up. That's never happened on this podcast at least.

Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. I was thinking about burritos. Oh, I like this theory, though, Jesse. He's trying to bring a little New England into San Diego. Jesse, where did you grow up? I grew up here in San Diego. In San Diego. Interesting.

Yeah, nothing's older than like the 70s. Right. Which is why the ghost story is interesting because you have, you know, like the fact that there are actually homes built in the 1800s that are not you know missions well wait a minute you're talking about ghost stories are interesting intrinsically or your specific ghost story i think ghost stories in general are interesting and yeah because yours yours is pretty boring sorry sorry no no it's not the most exciting a scary feeling in the basement being from new eng, I know what you're talking about. It's an intense feeling to be in a basement and be scared. For sure, it happens.

So, Jesse, what are your damages here that you're claiming? Why does this bother you? What does it mean to you that he keeps bringing this up, that you would bring him to court or fake court? Okay. Or ghost court. Yeah, ghost court. it doesn't make any sense to me so that's um annoying and i can't go to haunted houses with somebody that i really like

hanging out with i can't enjoy one of my favorite seasonal pastimes because he's scared for a reason that i think is silly and not true. Yeah. But even Carter admits that the, that his haunted house family stories is just a part of the, of the problem of him just getting scared from things. Right. Carter,

you're not out here claiming that Clarence, the friendly ghost is the one who put you off of watching saw or whatever. No, no. And I will say, like, I'm willing to watch most of the scary movies. I focus on the spooky, like the exorcism. Those scary movies are much more my, you know, like off limits area. What about The Shining? No, no, not at all.

Not at all. Yeah, that's a very scary one. All right. Yeah. I actually never have watched it all the way through. you watched all of interstellar wow carter when you were a kid were you comforted by the stories of clarence the friendly ghost uh i think my mom did a great job of saying of like making sure we knew that the ghost was not there to harm us see the guy said ghost again that's okay ghost is a common word that we can use. We understand that you're talking about an interventional traveler.

You're talking about a spooky spirit that used to be alive and now it's dead. So if I were to order in your favor, Jesse, what would you have me order? I would request that Carter either firmly acknowledge the existence of an afterlife. Because again, this whole multid-dimensional aspect of it is new and it's not how he traditionally presents it to people when he tells this story let me give you a history lesson the multiverse has been around for a long time in in in the context of this very specific story uh it's new um and so so Carter should either have to acknowledge that he does believe in some sort of afterlife or carrying on of energy and just get clear on that. Or

he has to stop telling this story because it's not true. I didn't ask if you believe in an afterlife, Jesse. I do not. and you are you're not there's no adorable rhode island hemming and hawing in that one it's like no no you appreciate precision in your life i do yes that might be my fault right i don't know what your careers are but uh jesse i think you're a scientist who also is a surfer and carter you're a creepy grave digger who does some errands for local providence mafiosi from time to time remarkably close on both fronts yeah how close did i get if you if you don't mind my asking i'm in sales and marketing in the cannabis industry wow and uh i work in software i'm the general manager of a software development agency

you know what's gonna happen is you know jesse you're part of the biggest economic sector in the united states right now you're the new new new money you're gonna go to newport rhode island and buy a mansion i'm a big fan of little compton rhode island hey i was there hey we were just there too but i mean i was there as, I mean, I was there as a child Oh Yeah, I was there as a child with Timmy McGonagall and his mom And then I was like nine or ten and I drowned Are you a ghost?

Yeah You didn't know that? Oh, shoot Oh, there goes my argument Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah He used to be alive, now he's dead Yeah, a dictionary definition of a ghost Carter's gonna leave now Oh, shoot. Oh, there goes my argument. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He used to be alive. Now he's dead. Yeah. A dictionary definition of a ghost.

Carter's going to leave now. No, see, I'm a friendly ghost, Carter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know a guy named Clarence? That jerk. He's constantly talking about being friends with Bruce Springsteen. Carter, what would you have me order if i were to rule in your favor so i would like jesse to have to admit that these things can exist in even in contradiction to one another and that i'm allowed to hold on to all my beliefs here's one other thing that i've been trying to

figure out but i i want jesse to endeavor to explore the otherness or the unexplained in some sort of way so she could potentially uh take some of this contradiction that i have and and apply it to her life as well would you say that you reject the paranormal jesse uh yeah yeah you're a realist what you see is what you get okay yeah you're like an oh no ross and carrie listener oh that's a great show i love that show it's a terrific show carter when you want jesse to embrace the other side you obviously you want her to join you in the church of satan which is an atheist organization that not believe in the devil by the way but what are you talking about you want to go on like uh bigfoot hunts together you want to go to uh area 51 and look for ufos yeah um you know i would say

like either of those would work but you know there's uh you know i the the difficult thing with that is it's like i don't think like a haunted house tour would do it um why not i mean she wants to go to a haunted house well okay so i think carter wants to argue that's like his it's his favorite thing he's like a rhetoric it's like he like loves the debate your premise is he loves to argue because he went to he's a rhetoric major from bates college he loves to argue because he's a rhetoric major from Bates College. He loves to argue because he's from Rhode Island. It's a New England affectation. I understand. Okay.

But I think that's part of it. He loves a debate. And I just refuse to debate this. And I think it really bugs him. But I also would love to get you over to my side. And obviously, you can't go experience what I experienced at this house, you know, years and years ago. But you could try to experience

something, you know, similar or different that could help you, you know, kind of grasp the unexplainable. I do have a relatively recent story that leads me to believe that what Carter's asking would not actually happen.

We were in Little Compton and that house is like 120 years old or something. The house that we're staying in in Little Compton and that house is like 120 years old or something crazy. The house that we're staying in in Little Compton, Rhode Island. Yes, it was like a chicken coop that they just kept adding to. Right.

It was like something crazy. And I was upstairs. We had just put our kids down to sleep and there was a door that was like opening and closing and opening and closing and Carter was downstairs and I text him and I was like, I think there's ghosts up here. And I was like, hey, can you come help me figure out which of these doors,

like what's happening? And he's like, no. He literally texted me back, no. Because he was too scared. Yeah, because he was scared. So I had to walk around and like figure out there was a window open. But so I'm not going to be, I've already gone through my haunting. I'm not saying we do this together.

You just want to send your wife into a haunted situation full of spooky ghosts to teach her a lesson about how creepy real ghosts are? I don't necessarily, firstly, they could be friendly ghosts. Second of all, I'm not saying it necessarily has to be a haunting either. Carter, your mommy was lying to you. Clarence is not friendly. He's friendly with Bruce Springsteen. Yeah, that's true.

But everyone loves the boss. Yeah. All right. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I am going to go into the mysterious red room underneath the basement stairs that weren't on the original blueprints of this house. I'll give it some thought. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jesse, how do you feel about your chances in the case? I feel okay. There's like the New England thing I have to

contend with. I think that that put me at a disadvantage from the beginning. You think Hodgman's in the bag for the New England litigant here? I mean, isn't he? I mean, Carter didn't bring up any special New England secret code words, as far as we know. Carter, how do you feel about your chances? I think my ask for Jesse to have to endeavor to experience that otherness is a pretty tall order. And I don't think that will be given to me. So yeah, from that perspective, I don't think it's very good. Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman's verdict is when we return in just a moment.

Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory.

The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try.

Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Ah, it'll never fit. No will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-p-d-c-o-o ah we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximumfun.org if you need a laugh then you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. First of all, Jesse Thorne, thank you for that psychic message reminding me to tell my story about psychic powers. I think I've told the story on the podcast before, so forgive me if you've heard it, but Jesse and Jesse and Carter,

you listen to the podcast. So maybe you have, but my book editor, Brian Tartt, I have two book editors, Brian Tartt and Sean McDonald, Brian, both great friends,

both great editors. Brian bought an old, old home in upstate New York. And he was concerned about it being haunted. And I said, wow, really? Because I'm not afraid of no ghosts and I'm not happy about it. I would love to believe in, in ghosts as the original Merriam-Webster dictionary definition defines them as dead people who are floating around with unfinished business on this world. Because if I could believe in ghosts,

then I would be forced to consistently believe in an afterlife of some kind. And what is one of the great sadnesses of my growing old is my growing certainty that probably there is nothing after we die uh i guess i'll find out one way or the other that's called agnosticism and i was sort of i was like okay brian that's funny i didn't know that you believed in ghosts he said yeah and I'm like well what are you going to do about it he said well it's okay one of my authors is a very prominent psychic and I called her and I said um I don't remember the name of the person but we'll just say it's Barbara Barbara I bought this very old house

and I'm concerned that there might be ghosts in it. Would you evaluate it and take a reading? And she said, sure, I will. What's the address? And he gave it to her and she finished writing down the address and there was this pause in the line.

She goes, no, that's fine. There are no ghosts there. And Brian says, aren't you going to come go to the house? She's like, why? I'm psychic.

That's how it works. But even though I am a non-ghost believer in the traditional sense of ghosts, I get why Brian could be scared because houses in the Northeast are older and they're scarier than houses in San Diego. in Los Angeles and elsewhere have this fascination with the sort of idea of a New England autumnal Halloween in leafy suburbs with those kinds of old houses in them and kids going door to door and everything else because you don't have it. But I've had it and it's genuinely scary. It's really scary. And the other thing that I have to say is about ghosts is even though I, I feel pretty confident in my belief that ghosts are not dead people who are floating around with unfinished business. Part of being an agnostic to me and part of being someone who believes in

science is that you have to accept that there may be things beyond the limits of your perception that you don't know about yet i mean that's what germ theory was and and is right we couldn't see the germs until uh paul rudd learned how to shrink down real small and then he could see the germs that's how they proved it yep right yep so i think probably there is nothing really going on in at seven halsey road or street street seven halsey street in in rhode island i feel like there are a lot of explanations that are not paranormal at all, right? Which are just like two young boys roughhousing in body and mind, getting themselves worked up over stuff and getting confirmation bias anytime there was a power surge in the house.

Like, oh my gosh, I knocked this photo of myself off the wall. Am I doomed for death or am i just clumsy because i was carrying a big tray of uh stuffies from the kitchen it's a rhode island thing stuffed clams yeah boy yeah one of the things about judge john hodgman the settled law of course is that people like what they like and unfortunately you are both making a request that violates that law you're both asking for someone to like something that they don't like or unlike something that they do like. And not just about movies and ghost stories, but also about very core belief systems about what is real and what is not real. It's not fair, Jesse, for you to ask Carter to admit

to an afterlife that he doesn't believe in. It's not fair, Carter, for you to ask Carter to admit to an afterlife that he doesn't believe in. It's not fair, Carter, for you to throw Jesse some tennis balls tied to a rope and try to drag her to the other side of paranormal belief. But we can't just leave it as a stalemate. You both have to be punished. So what am I going to do? We have unfinished business. This is why ghosts hang around on this earth. They have unfinished business. This is why ghosts hang around on this earth. They have unfinished business.

And we have to cleanse the house of your marriage. And there is an obvious way to do it. You have to go to the house. This is what you do in every horror movie. You have to go to the house and cleanse the spirit. By which I mean, knock on the door or call ahead and say, I used to live in this house. I would like to go in it again. Now, if the current owners say, I'm so sick of you and people from Judge John Hodgman knocking on my door.

No. Then back away. But Jesse, you want to go to a haunted haunted house this is the one you're going to go to great this is the one that carter needs to go to you're going to go into that basement and you're both going to see if you feel anything there and then drive 53 minutes north to the good wendy's in southborough enjoy civilized Massachusetts. And if your feelings have not changed, then you bury this thing. And if one of you does change your mind about whether or not this house is haunted, then you're in alignment. And then, of course, if you're both killed down there by the ghost, I have no liability.

This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jesse, you sound like you're prepared to visit this haunted house. Yes, I would love to. I mean, like I said, I love New England. I think it's great. I'm fascinated by Carter's upbringing.

I just think it's like the cutest that he grew up in, like, downtown Providence. And I just imagine him as a little kid there. I love going back there. I mean, I can understand your perspective on this, Jesse, especially since there's no Elvira show at Knott's Berry Farm anymore. You got to find something to do in October. That's exactly right. Carter, how are you feeling? I feel good.

I'm also very excited to go back to this house and knock on the door. I think that's a really good idea. very excited to go back to this house and knock on the door. I think that's a really good idea. And I'm a little, I mean, I'll even say like, you know, walking down into that basement, there's going to be, you know, there's still a little spook to that for sure. Jesse Carter, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books. In just a moment, we'll have Swift Justice. John, did you know that they do... You're from New England.

I'm from Southern California. They do have ghosts in San Diego. Oh, really? Yeah, they're called California ghosts. It's just a regular ghost with french fries in it. Okay. I don't even know what that refers to. with french fries in it. Okay. I don't even know.

What is that? I don't even know what that refers to. It's a California burrito. It's just a burrito with french fries in it. They put french fries in there. It's a San Diego food. Yeah.

It's like the stuffies of San Diego. The stuffies of San Diego. We want to thank Steve Chiappotoni for naming this week's episode Fright Court. If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter for naming opportunities at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

While you're there, you can also hashtag your Judge John Hodgman related tweets. Hashtag JJHO. And Jesse, may I say you can hashtag all of your tweets. Hashtag JJHO. Doesn't that be related to Judge John Hodgman? All your hot takes. Hashtag JJHO. It doesn't have to be related to Judge John Hodgman. All your hot takes. Hashtag them. Let's get JJHO trending. Just just hot takes.

Exactly. You can also join the conversation over at the Maximum Fun subreddit at MaximumFun.reddit.com. Or you know what? Talk about marbles. Marbles.reddit.com. I joined that Reddit recently. Having a lot of fun hearing about marbles. Marbles.reddit.com. I joined that Reddit recently. Having a lot of fun hearing different marbles words. Evidence from today's episode posted on our Instagram account

at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman. Make sure to follow us there. Our producer, Jennifer Marmer. Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment. Dyson says, how long can I keep spaghetti leftovers in the fridge? My partner wants to toss anything older than five days. I feel I have closer to a fortnight, if not more. Wow. Well, the use of fortnight suggests that Dyson may be in the uk and i'm not sure what spaghetti is there i will say this a fortnight uh is too long to keep any food in your refrigerator i think it gets a little rank after a while five days is pretty good cut off i would say for spaghetti

and most most prepared entrees but you you know, when you cook pasta, or pasta as you might call it in the UK, it freezes pretty good. Freezes pretty good. But just eat your spaghetti. Yeah, just eat your spaghetti. Just eat your spaghetti already. Don't wait for two weeks, Fortnite.

That's it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO or email them to us at Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.