Judge John Hodgman - Gavelbangers Ball

Episode Date: August 30, 2012

THIS WEEK: with guest bailiff Monte Bailiff Belmonte and a SECRET expert witness. Caroline brings this case against her boyfriend Will, who's been trying to sell her on his favorite metal bands to no avail.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. I'm guest bailiff Monty Bailiff Belmonte, morning host at WRSI in Northampton, Massachusetts, in for Jesse Thorne. The case? The gavel banger's ball. Complainant Caroline and her boyfriend Will share many interests, but there's one that's been a sticking point. Will says that metal is an important genre to him, musically and personally, and that Caroline hasn't given it a fair shake. Caroline finds the music jarring and distasteful and says she's heard enough to say so. Who's right and who's wrong?

Only one man can decide. Please rise as the Honorable Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Tonight, 16,000 screaming Detroit kids have come in off the streets for a glimpse of Judge John Hodgman, self-proclaimed king of devil rock, whose distinctive heavy metal roar has made him the bane of music critics and the idol of millions the world over. The song is called Send in the Demons, and it's clarion power chords signal the bizarre beginning of the rock and roll conspiracy. Dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-d with it. Barely if Jesse is on a hell of a day. Barely if Monty's gonna make them

say the words. Swear I'm in. Will and Caroline, please rise and raise your right hands. Prepare to swear on this satanic Bible and repeat after me. Day of judgment, God is calling.

Day of judgment, God is calling. On their knees, the war pig's crawling. On their knees, the war pig's crawling. Begging mercy for their sins. Begging mercy for their sins. Satan laughing spreads his wings. Satan laughing spreads his wings. Oh, Lord, yeah. Oh, Lord, yeah.

Oh, Lord, yeah. Do you swear by the Church of Satan who has approved Judge John Hodgman's ruling? Yeah. I guess, yeah. Judge John Hodgman, you may proceed. Okay, you may come down off of that horrible altar now and take your places in court. This is Judge John Hodgman presiding. now and take your places in court.

This is Judge John Hodgman presiding. Complainant is Caroline. Defendant is Will. For an immediate summary judgment, can either you, Will, or Caroline name the very specific piece of popular culture I was paraphrasing during my

entirely improvised heavy metal scat singing debut? Caroline, can you? I can't, unfortunately. You cannot. Will? No, sorry. I'm going to throw it to our as-yet-unnamed mystery hooded expert witness.

Can you name? Was it Kiss Alive? It was not Kiss Alive. It was a good choice. Was it Kiss Alive? It was not Kiss Alive. It was a good choice. You were certainly in the era ballpark that, of course, I take on Asmodeus Jones, a satanic rock singer.

So there you go. Go check that out at your local comic book store. That was about basically as close to heavy metal as I ever got in my life. The heaviest music that I listened to growing up was probably the Alan Parsons Project. my life the heaviest music that i listened to growing up was probably the alan parsons project and uh and i had a copy of kiss destroyer and i on cassette and i was almost well i was too scared to play it basically these guys scared me so i have brought in uh for our edification a very special you may notice the the the robed and uh hooded uh figure in the corner burning a giant candle. Our expert witness for today, musician, mountain goat, Mr. John Darnielle. Welcome to the courtroom, John.

Hail Satan. Thank you very much. And John Darnielle, as you may know, is a world-famous singer-songwriter, and he is also a, may I say, an aficionado? An aficion singer songwriter. And he is also a, may I, may I say an aficionado? Aficionado is good. I, I always, I always beg off claims of expert,

but I, but I listened to a lot of heavy metal. You listened to a lot of heavy metal. And so he's going to help me understand the crazy, the crazy language that you're going to be talking at me. Will, as you present your defense, Caroline,

you are the complainant. I am. The problem is that Will is your boyfriend. And also, and also wants you to listen to heavy metal music all the time. Is that correct? That is mostly correct. Yeah. Tell me where I'm wrong.

Well, there's no problem with him being my boyfriend, but he does want me to look... I will be the judge of that. How long have you guys been married? How long have you guys been together? I think a little over two years. And are you married, people? We're not. And do you cohabitate?

No. We actually don't. Oh, alright. right very good so you are not living in sin you are you are just damned to hell for other reasons because of special hugging and kissing but moving on how uh how uh so you've been going out for two years and he's constantly trying to get you to listen to this heavy metal music. Is that right? Yeah, that is right. And what's the problem? Well, by now, I think I've heard enough of, I guess, what would specifically be referred to as, I think, black metal, where I can make an informed decision about whether or not I'd like to hear more of it.

He usually thinks when I protest that either I don't understand the music well enough or I haven't heard it enough. And Will, what's your position on this? How do you defend yourself? Even what she just said is misleading. Lies from the horror of Babylon? Yeah. I try to

play her things that I think she would or could like. So she hasn't actually heard that much black metal by now. And then it's not just black metal. It's all kinds of metal. You're talking about heavy metal by bands that are predominantly African-American? Is that what that means? metal it's all kinds of metal and um you're talking about so in really you're speaking

you're talking about heavy metal by bands that are predominantly african-american is that what that means yeah oh no because that doesn't exist right sorry my mistake you're talking about you're talking about black metal in the sense of dark and dreadful scary metal right or how would you describe it how would you define it i don't know it it? I don't know. It's a pretty specific subgenre, but there's all, there's tons of subgenres of metal and so, yeah, Caroline's... If the issue here is black metal, I'd like you to

define for me the music that you wish your girlfriend liked and doesn't. I would say the issue here isn't black metal because she hasn't heard it. Okay, but do you know what? I'm making that the issue. What is black metal? she hasn't heard that. Okay, but do you know what? I'm making that the issue. What is black metal? What is the specific subgenre we're talking about?

Black metal is like an extreme subgenre of metal that's got a lot of low production values and satanic imagery and often sloppy sort of performances, kind of have a garage kind of quality to them. It's often very atmospheric, though, as well. What do you mean? It's like you could listen to it in the background of a movie scene. Yeah, yeah, I guess. Or just meant to evoke a hypnotic kind of a state.

It's often very repetitive. And with the low production values, it's kind of dreamy sounding or it can be uh aficionado witness john darniel are you familiar with this genre yeah with the genre in the subgenre in black metal he's right that there's this atmospheric tendency in black metal sometimes it's from low production but those guys are also often really into ambient music so there will be an ambient section on a black metal record, which if you're not familiar with the genre, it can be really funny that it goes from this really aggressive, extraordinarily fast music to what sounds like, you know, a transitional scene in Lord of the Rings. And so that's common. But the examples that I was sent as stuff that he listens to is across a spectrum of heavy metal.

Examples that I was sent as stuff that he listens to is across a spectrum of heavy metal. It's a little bit of death and a little bit of speed metal, which is an undersung genre, and a Burzum track, which is straight black metal. And this is the evidence that Will has provided to us of the kind of music that you would like Caroline to listen to or that you have already tried to get Caroline into, and she has refused. The four tracks I sent you guys were things that she has reacted unfavorably to that I thought that she probably could like, that I thought had some kind of a clearly redeeming artistic merit that didn't just have to do with the metalness of it. Something beyond. So it's not all black metal?

No. Because that sounds like it's... Please. I'm not a counselor. I'm just an expert witness, a lowly expert witness. But I would say sending merciful fate to anybody and saying, here, you might like this, is usually a bad move. Let's take a listen. Let's take a listen, shall we?

All right. This is A Danger meeting by merciful fate. We'll see you next time. Oh yeah, that was Merciful Fate, Dangerous Meeting from the 1984 album Don't Break the Oath. You could be a DJ. Thank you very much, Monty. Monty, of course, is the morning DJ and voice of WRSI, the river up here in Northampton, Massachusetts, DJ and voice of WRSI, The River, up here in Northampton, Massachusetts, where the court is in exile for the current period of end of summertime. So, all right. So that is a song from 1984.

It makes me feel like I'm watching the end credits to Street Fighter. What is the benefit of this music? Well, that band and that song and album have really excellent guitar solos and uh really the the seminal point in merciful fate and i often the the bone of contention people find in their music is the uh the singer who has a very high-pitched wailing voice but anyways yeah they have a great uh neo-classical element to them in addition to their uh speed and the dark uh imagery and subject matter of the songs and caroline professes to enjoy classical music and so i offered that are you are you calling her a liar are you calling her a liar she professes to like classical music and yet she doesn't

like Merciful Fates A Dangerous Meeting. How is that possible? I put it to you. Caroline, I put it to you. What kind of music do you like? Well, I think I like a wide variety of different music. Some of the topics I listen to are Jean Grey,

Fiona Apple, Betty Harris, David Bowie, Gilda Smith, Annette Hanchaw, Louis Armstrong, Joe Tex, Alison Chains. I mean, the list goes on and on. Okay. I see you, Louis Armstrong, I see you like jazz music. Do you ever listen to an esoteric subgenre of jazz called Satan jazz? John, I think you mean

death jazz. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Death jazz. Absolutely my mistake. Death jazz. Pretty wide-ranging. I've never... No. But you have a pretty wide-ranging musical taste, I would say. I like to think so, yeah. So how come you can't dig merciful fate

uh i don't know you know like what what is it that makes you love something and not like i try i listen logic of course logic let's go let's go to our to our uh to our guest uh expert witness mr john darniel john what. John, do you dig Merciful Fate? So Merciful Fate is a top five band for me. Whoa. I don't generally tell people about my tattoos, but let it be said that when the autopsy is committed on my body, people will know how much I liked Merciful Fate.

But the thing is about Merciful Fate, well, indeed, their guitarists do owe a good bit of debt specifically to the classical era. But King Diamond's voice is make or break. The first time you hear it, you know whether or not you're going to be able to deal with it or not. It's this piercing falsetto with no variation. Like most falsettos go here and there and sort of hang in the air. But his just really cuts glass. It's really something else.

sort of hanging in the air, but his just really cuts glass. It's really something else. So I don't think that I gave this track enough of a chance because I don't even think we got to the vocal section. To me, that riff is unstoppable. I can't understand. Personally, I can get with, you hear that riff, why wouldn't anybody love that riff? But the second he starts singing, it's a whole different ballgame.

All right, let's dip back into it it and we'll get to the vocal. All right. is So as they're approaching ghostly hour So many people here are grinding at the end They think they know the spirit to appear The kitchen, the table, the food Well, the guy can sure yodel, that's for sure. Now, if you don't like that version of the song, his first band, The Brats,

King Diamond is actually from South Africa, and his first band, The Brats, had a version of that song that was called Death Kiss that was a little different. It had less falsetto. Suddenly his dumb heavy metal name King Diamond takes on a huge socio-political context now that I know that he's from South Africa

I had not even made that connection Now is he an African or is he a European South African? He's Danish as far as I know Oh really? Is he from the Norwegian Is he from the norwegian is he from the scandinavian countries really and he's a and he's a metal singer huh interesting yeah imagine that all right you were saying though so king diamond in his original band

the brats he sang that song called death kiss that where the rock and roll aspect was a lot more it's it's one of my favorite stories because i think he really liked the riff and he really liked the song so the song is about five or six years old by the time he gets it to his second band and he's still just sort of living with this song that he really seems committed to having not on his first album with his new band but on his second one he finally gets a version that he likes and now this is not black metal i know, that's proto-black metal. That's really speed metal, which is not – the parameters of speed metal are pretty ill-defined. Let me guess. Does speed have something to do with it?

A little. But as you can hear, that's kind of a mid-tempo song. Sure. But the leads are pretty fast. But King Diamond wore a lot of face makeup after the style of Kiss and was very theatrical. It still does. And a lot of the black metal bands were big Merciful Fate fans, but their music does not

sound a lot like Merciful Fate. So this is in the history lesson that we are now getting. This is the band that made Satan's Beatles possible. Exactly. Bands like Immortal, all the corpse paint stuff that you get coming out of Oh yeah, all the corpse paint stuff. Sure.

I'm sorry. Of know. Of course. Of course. Stuff was, was very inspired by, by merciful fate. All right. So we'll, how do you feel about John Darneel's interpretation of the music so far?

Uh, very lucid. I think, um, I have a trivia fact for you though. All right. Uh, Caroline never made it to the vocals with that song.

She was already frowning. Wait a minute. I think maybe your definition of trivia is different from mine. I thought you were going to give me some weird little known fact about, you know, what, you know, what, where King Diamond has his own merciful fate tattoo. But in fact, you're giving me trivia about your girlfriend. Yeah. My dad is mean. What's it got in its pockets?

Okay. All right. The subject is Caroline or change. And the question is, what point of the music did Caroline get to before she turned this off? Answer? About probably 10 seconds seconds the 10 second mark objection i'll allow it go ahead i i might not have turned it i doubt i turned it off but i probably made a frowny face is that true will was it was a frowny face was a frowny face deployed

yeah i would say a general bristling was visible in caroline's demeanor about 10 seconds into the song way before really even the vocals appeared now caroline now that now that i have i have forced you and indeed myself to listen to a full one minute 20 of this of this song which i see i see here is five minutes and 12 seconds. So now you've listened to a full one minute 20. Is your mind, and you've heard some discourse from our cloaked and berobed mysterious expert witness. Do you have any different feelings?

Could you give this another try? Of course I would. I've listened to up to three tries for individual songs. That sounds very fair, but is that what you put in practice in your life, Will? Does she put that into practice, three tries? No. I think that's true with music. Oh, true of music in general.

Okay, so Caroline, here we go go you listen to 10 seconds of it once you listen to one minute 20 of it now here comes uh strike three guitar solo Tonight the circle is broken forever Seven people Okay, that's it. Yes or no? Yes. Yes. You like that song? You know, it's not bad.

The stuff that really I can't, is hard for me to listen to is the stuff where, and the guys that listen to the black metal will know what I'm talking about. It's like they're being choked to death, but they're like still singing. Okay, so what is the evidence? What other evidence have you provided here? Well, Will actually declined to give me the evidence I was requesting, so I was forced to look up something that sounded similar to me. So I sent you something that basically sounds like this stuff.

Okay, but I want to focus on the evidence. You sent a joke video, right? A parody? Well, you could say it's a joke video, right? A parody. You could, you could say it's a joke, but really it's me. It sounds about the same. Okay.

Well, I understand that it speaks to your psychological condition to, to be an interpretation of what you're hearing when he attempts to play you these things. But I'm going to go to, uh, to original documents here. Uh, will you,

you sent, you sent, I'm sorry, I overrule your, your evidence. Will you you sent, I'm sorry, I overrule your evidence. Will, you sent in two other tracks. One by Jesus

Todd. Is that right? No, that's by Burzum. Burzum. Jesus Todd is the name of the song. It's called Jesus Toad. Jesus Toad. Oh, Will, you sound a lot like John Darnielle all of a sudden. Sorry. I got all the pieces of evidence. I got five. Yeah, if I were oh, Will, you sound a lot like John Darnielle all of a sudden. Sorry. No, I got all the pieces of evidence.

Yeah, no, I think – I got five. Yeah, if I were you, Will, I would just keep quiet from here on out because – He's your advocate at this point. Yeah, I know. Not only is he incredibly learned in the science of metal of all kinds, but let's face it. He's the only other guy here who's got a functioning Skype connection. metal of all kinds, but let's face it, he's the only other guy here who's got a functioning Skype connection. So, John

Burzum, the name of the song is Jesus Toad, but Toad is spelled incorrectly because it's metal. And then we listen to Merciful Fate, then there's Sweet Silence. Is that the band or the song? Oh, that's Gorguts. The song is Sweet Silence, is that the band or the song? Oh, that's Gorguts. The song is Sweet Silence. Oh, that's Gorguts. Oh, that's Gorguts. The song is called Sweet Silence.

And then we have... What an unfortunate name. I will be the first to... Oh, really? Is it more unfortunate than Disembowelment? Yeah. The thing I like about... So Disembowelment is the song or the band?

That's the band. The band. Is the way they capitalize their name here their choice or your typographical error? Is it small d, small i, capital S-E-M-B-O-W-E-L-M-E-N-T? Yeah, that's their thing. That's their thing. I don't know what that's all about. All right.

Because you can see how this makes me feel like they're teenagers, right? Oh, well, yeah. There's a reasonable explanation for this. Okay. These guys, Disembowelment and Gorgots, are two prime examples of bands that formed when the members were young and just focused on making noise and developed into pretty artistically accomplished entities later in their career, but were forced to retain their name for contractual reasons.

That's explicitly the case with disembowelment, but I think it's similar to what happens to a lot of metal bands where they establish themselves cranking out some kind of noise and then eventually start making things that are pretty artistic and they keep their old name. artistic and they keep their old name so you were saying uh what you were saying before your skype uh turned your your words into uh weird Cylon noises uh they are they were required to keep the name out of contractual agreement right yeah they start out just purveying basic toys and then develop into something is there is there a genre called skype, John Darnielle? Is there a Skype Metal? Skype Metal where it's like...

Presently, we are fleshing out. This is actually a proto-Skype Metal conversation. Yeah. Eventually become a genre that will be spoken of in hushed tones for centuries. Right, right. The hushed tones are actually where the Skype drops out, actually. So Disembowelment, the name of this song, and would this be a black metal band would you say or no

no okay is gore guts a black metal band no is burzum a black metal band yeah okay so let's listen to the black will is on his own with burzum i don't care for them yes all right now we're on to something here we go this one i have not listened to. Brand new. Ladies and gentlemen, the band is called Burzum. The song is Jesus Toad. This is Judge John Hodgman guest DJing at WRSI The River. Let's give it a spin. Thank you. so It all sounds the same, right? I want to get to one of these great trance ambient music sections where suddenly you're in an airport hallway.

Is that how you described it? Oh yeah, that was Jesus towed by Burzum here on the river, 93.9 Northampton. We're talking here with Will, who likes this music. Will, what is the deal with this? Well, that track, it's funny you should mention the ambient thing, because it's the closest to ambient music of any of the tracks I sent you. With that repetitive, very hazy kind of guitar stuff going on there, I find it has kind of an ambient effect.

It's sort of like a hypnotic kind of wash of these riffs over and over again. There's lots of guitar tracks in there, and it has a very ambient sound to me. It's like white noise except black noise. Yeah. And the black as an adjective here indicates, is there a satanic component to this? Is it just dark? Yeah, as you may guess from the title. Jesus toad?

Well, I can't guess from the title because they spelled toad wrong. So I don't know what that means. That could be they're a Norwegian band. That could mean Jesus toad his foot into the waters and walked upon them. Thank you very much, Monty Belmonte. Yes. Can I ask? Monty Belmonte, of course, is a big fan of Christian metal.

Isn't that right? I am. Striper. Yeah. Petra. Yeah. Monty, you used to like heavy metal music, correct? Yes.

Okay. So did you like that song or what? Not really. I liked the early thrash of Metallica and then a couple of the other more, I don't know, melodic metal bands that had some sort of song structure, which eventually led me down to more traditional rock and roll music. It was a phase that I feel like many people eventually grow out of. But maybe Will hasn't yet.

And that's OK. OK, thank you very much. That's my early summary judgment as a bailiff. I'm an aspiring judge. Thank you very much, DJ named Dr. Patronize. Will, what is your age, please? 25. Yeah, do you feel that this is a phase in your life or something that you will love forever? I probably will like it forever. It's not the only kind of music I listen to. It's just one kind of music that I admit that probably about 50% of my

collection is metal, but the other 50% is all kinds of stuff. And I listen to that stuff about two-thirds of the time. And what would that stuff be like? Skype metal? Early everything. Elton John metal? Death jazz? Death jazz?

Deep Alan Parsons project metal? Ambient Dan Fogelberg? Mountain Goats? Alchemist parsons yeah metal meets alan parsons what are some of the non-metal bands that you dig well right now on my desk let's see there's there's uh this sublime frequencies reissue of this omar korshid guy he's like an egyptian surf guitarist then there's a dark throne album and then there's uh voices from the lake which is this italian minimal techno release so that's three right there i'm just looking around my room captain beefheart have you oh okay i was just about to ask have you ever heard of music that anyone else has ever heard of oh yeah there's a little of that in here. But you like

to plumb the depths, to go out to the margins and see what is out there. I'm pretty universal with what I'm willing to listen to and give a shot to. You ever host a college radio station?

What's that? You ever host a radio show on your college radio station? I did, yeah. What was it radio show on your college radio station? Yeah. Yeah. What was it called? It didn't have a name, but it was in the middle of the night and it had a lot of metal. Was it called the Caroline Trivia Hour? Songs she hates? John Darnielle, why don't you like that Burzum? What? Because to an untrained ear, I'm not I'm not catching huge differences. I think Burzum, I think people take a very strong interest in Burzum because their lead singer is a murderer. He served time in prison.

He's a very controversial figure. But if you listen to that song through, and then you listen to an Irish band called Primordial, they're doing the same thing like a trillion times better. And are they murdering anyone? No, that's the thing. Primordial's nice guys, so they won't get any shine because Varg

is popular because he has a backstory. It's a crowded field in music, so if you kill somebody, it really does give you the edge. Caroline, I hear you trying to crank up your Skype connection to jump in here. Even you are aware that Burzum is

fronted by a murderer? Very much so. Part of Will's tactic in trying to get me to appreciate the music more is by telling me background about the band. And he tends to like a lot of music where the leader was perhaps a killer or has ideas about killing people. And I think that's part of the appeal. A little Will trivia. killer or has ideas about killing people and i think that's part of the appeal a little will trivia so what would will will likes bands led by uh murderers and deviants and creeps is this another super secret subgenre of metal the uh lead singer is a murderer murder metal murder metal

i'm sure there is right snuff metal there's another one up in the norwegian scene where the guy killed somebody. I can't think of who it is. But I do think that Varg, the force of his personality, leads people to regard his music more highly than it actually merits. What were the circumstances? Not that it matters, but just out of curiosity, what were the circumstances of this murder?

It's my understanding that it was actually over money, although the story that circulates is that it was actually over money although the the the story that circulates is that that it had to do with guilty to the truths of black metal or the scene but it's my understanding that somebody owed somebody money and he went over to the guys doesn't kill them and was it solved by a debonair mustachioed detective named judge john hodgman yes sir it will as you must remember the case i know you do a lot of cases. I do. I do a lot of cases, but I also smoke a lot of cocaine drugs. And that's sort of the twofold.

I don't actually smoke a lot of cocaine drugs, but as an eccentric detective, you know, I do have my habits. So I do have I do. I have solved a lot of cases, but I've I've also bathed in a lot of absence. That's my picture. You like fixing morphine between cases. So but he murdered some other black metal dude, a grown up at least kill again. He killed a guitar player from Mayhem. Yeah. Yeah. He killed he killed the guitarist for a rival band. But I think it was actually over money. And he did, I think, 15 or 20 years, and now he's out. He recorded two or three albums of actual ambient music while he was in prison

because in Norway you're allowed to have recording stuff when you're in prison. Yeah, because in Norway you're only allowed to record ambient metal when you're in prison. You can't have a drum kit. They draw the line and have a drum kit. They draw the line. Yeah, exactly. So because that might be formed into a weapon. Well, this touches a sore point for me because, you know, I don't know. I don't know that you want to be the guy who's trying to get his girlfriend

into music by saying, hey, you should listen to this song. The dude who plays the bass in this band used to kill a lot of kittens growing up. Do you think that's going to work? Yeah, that's pretty reprehensible. But I don't know. I take offense on it. I object on it on two fronts. One is that when I was growing up in zine culture, there were a lot of great zines, including the early boing boing boing that introduced me to all kinds of

subcultures that i didn't know about and then there was a whole extra genre of zine culture which was just uh zines about charles manson yes and how hilarious it was that charles manson was such a crazy dude and i took real offense at that because i'm like that is not funny hipster zine maker that's just creepy objection to uh the comment that i try to sell music to her based on the uh what's the opposite of merits demerits of its creators um i don't recall so you take objection to my objection oh this has not ever happened in the courtroom before well your objection was based on her objections. But this is a loaded... I mean, this is a...

You gave me four tracks to listen to. One of them is fronted by a murderer. But does that bear on... You made the choice to make this a representative of the kind of music that you would like Caroline to listen to.

And I'm not saying... Musically, it saying it's musically, it's representative. You dig the music. You dig the music. I'm not saying, yeah, I dig the music. I'm not so hot on the murder. Yeah. I'm not saying, I'm not saying, you know, to me, it's sort of like, I don't like, I don't like culture that, um, takes on, uh, uh, some sort of like camp, That takes on some sort of like camp, dark camp mystique because someone involved in it did something reprehensible. I think that's kind of lame.

Right. Or in the case of Varg also holds a lot of reprehensible beliefs. I think he gets a lot of that. Here's an evil dude. So he has a sort of a radiant dark power, which I get that because I, you know, I think every I'm an ex-Goth. I got a lot of Goth skeletons in my closet and I used to like a lot of guys because they were cool. Are they actual skeletons? But actual skeletons. Yes, I did.

But this was before Goth makeup made a whole lot of makeup. We were much classier about it. Our descendants really ruined the whole thing. If you're trying to get your girlfriend into it, why are you leading with the murder band? Oh, I don't lead. I don't really lead with them.

Why? I don't really lead with the murder trivia, I guess. That band, I do like that band's music a lot. But it's unrelated to the extracurricular activities of the guy. And I didn't try to use that as a selling point. And I don't try to use that stuff like selling point and I don't try to use that stuff like that as selling points

the last band that I'm going to talk about here I just want to go back to Dis Disembowelment Disembowelment the name of the song is this the name of the song Cerulean Transience of All My Imagined Shores

that is correct. That's the name of the song? Are you playing... Or is that something that a 14-year-old wrote on the back of his trapper keeper during math class? Are you playing the album version or the demo version from the Pentalgia compilation? I'm not playing any of it right now. I'm just making fun of the name of the song. Here it is.

This is off the 1993 Epic LP, Transcendence Into the Peripheral. It's Disembowelment, the Big Words Band. We know a lot of words and a lot of vocabulary. guitar solo Thank you. Okay, what happened? I took a little nap right then. What do you think about that song, Caroline? You know, it's all right. At least it doesn't have the like choking singing type of thing. Will, what do you think? It does later in the song, but why is that such a sticking point, I wonder? That particular thing.

You know, I can't say like what is it about, there's just something so jarring and unpleasant about it. And I think I like other metal, but you claim it's not real metal, so I'm not sure. What would be your imitation of the voice styling that you hate the most, Caroline? It would be something along the lines of, hate the most, Caroline? It would be something along the lines of yeah! It'd be like that.

Will, one last question before I make my judgment. Why is it important to you that Caroline like this music? She likes you, right? She likes your crazy, you like the crazy Egyptian surf rock dude? Is that good music? I love it.

I love his other music. That's part of what I love about Will. I think he's great. And we have a lot of music in common. So Will, how does it make you feel when Caroline rejects this music? I just basically, I dislike how quickly she rejects it. And yeah, I just don't feel like she's given it a fair shake. And especially because I like it a lot, personally.

And I've been listening to it for a long time. And yeah, it's just such a major interest of mine that it's just sort of, like, I wish she could understand what the appeal of it or we could kind of enjoy it together sure when you're you know when you're chopping up vegetables for a stir fry before pouring a little white wine and watching a little movie you can play it on the kitchen

stereo that sort of thing yeah something along those lines poor Will is so furious at me he's going to go to Norway and kill a guy alright I'm going to go into my chambers and I'll make my decision right away please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom now Will are you willing to go

pop metal at all on this Metallica the Black Album something that's a little more melodic but still retains some of the chops well um something like Iron Maiden I guess that's another no go oh no I, something like Iron Maiden, I guess, which that's another no-go. Oh, no, I do

like some Iron Maiden. But it's a no-go for you, Will? No, for her, that was a no-go. Oh. Now, Caroline, you said that you like both Sabbath and Alice in Chains. Are you willing to meet him at, like, Trans-Siberian Orchestra level somewhere? I don't know what that is, but I know

that I... They're sort of a pseudo-classical, pseudo-metal Christmas album band. I mean, I would give it a shot. Now, John Darniel of the Mountain Goats, do you have any questions of either Will or Caroline? Because you seem to be an expert on this. I want to say, if I can presume to just offer some life experience,

I am a fanatic about heavy metal of the five tracks submitted to me i love four of them gorguts that obscure album who can argue with obscurity is so good merciful fate one of my favorite bands of all time i've been married since 1998 to a person who does not particularly care about any of this sort of music but that's really fine with me because i think when when your tastes run toward niche stuff for me anyway then you sort of have to understand that not everybody is going to have the same sort of itch inside that reaches out to those sorts of things. Having said that, I feel that Disembowelment, that album is one of the great albums of all time.

I don't see how anybody wouldn't love the Disembowelment record. Thank you, John Darnielle of the Mountain Goats. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm sorry. Did I interrupt the John Darnielle Marriage Counseling Hour? The new podcast? Do you still listen to that music on a regular basis, John Darnielle? Constantly, yeah.

Well, I'm sorry to have intruded upon the John Darnielle Marriage Counseling Hour and Monty Belmonte and John Darnielle Transcendental Orchestra Trivia Podcast. I'm sure you're all having a very good time. You know, there is a longstanding precedent on this, in this courtroom, that you can't force people to like the things that you like. Because liking is a weird alchemic experience by which certain things really reflect off your soul and in other people it just repels off their soul. And so lots of times couples married or otherwise will come to me and insist that the other person should like a thing. And I say, cool it, dudes.

And I think that, John, you kind of echoed that same sentiment as a person who's been married for some time. That's been your experience as well. That's correct. And so obviously I'm, insofar as the court can be biased, I am biased to precedent, which is to say, dude, Will, don't force things on your girlfriend if you would like to continue to have a girlfriend. However, something happened to me. I experienced something kind of unusual. Something sort of like the Cerulean transience of all my imagined shores. Something I can only describe in my ninth grade dream journal as merciful fate.

And I received that merciful fate and I liked it. I liked that song dudes. Yes. I really, and you know what, Caroline, I was with you 10 seconds into that. I'm like,

dumb 20 seconds into that. I'm like, still dumb 30 seconds into that. I'm like, this sounds like the credit sequence to a 1980s Street Fighter movie. Totally. 35 seconds into it, I'm like, my God, I am 35 seconds into this. No. 35 seconds into this, I'm like, hail Cthulhu. I am 35 seconds into this.

When am I going to hear some vocals? 40 seconds. I would have turned it right off. But then I had these two dudes behind the movie theater pushing this music on me and made me listen to a full minute 20. And I started to get into it. And then I heard a little bit about King Diamond and what a weirdo this guy is, this Danish South African. There is clear musicianship behind this music. It is clearly not easy music to play, and it is clearly thought out and with a purpose.

And when I gave it enough time, I kind of felt my head mini-banging. I'll say that. I witnessed this. Yeah, I was getting along to it. I kind of wanted to be driving in a car for reasons other than the terrible sound quality of this podcast. And when Will told me that you had had a similar experience and had, if not turned the song off, then made a frowny face at second 10 or 20 or so. I sympathize with you, but I suddenly appreciated, yeah, you got to give this music some time to seep in, especially if it is wordless, weird, hypnotic, ambient metal that doesn't actually get going for about 17 minutes

into the track. So against all precedent, I am going to find in favor of the defendant, Will, the metalhead, with this specific instruction. Caroline? Yeah. This music is obviously important to Will. He will not stop talking about it or trying to get you to listen to it. And you have already stipulated a willingness to a three strikes rule with some of this music. Once per month, sir, you may nominate a metal song that you feel that Caroline A. should be familiar with and B. might like and C, does not rely on murder to sell it. And you reasonably can expect Caroline to listen to three minutes of it,

the length of a normal song, three times before passing what I call final judgment. But you can only do this once per month because if you do beyond that, you're getting into into jerk territory. Caroline, I'm doing this to you in order to help you understand what your boyfriend is all about. Will, I'm doing this to you to protect yourself from yourself from pushing too much of your beloved black metal too quickly such that what seems like a nice relationship might end prematurely. And then after three times,

seriously, dude, that's enough. She's heard it. That goes out of the rotation. Put it in your headphones. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Sean Hodgman rules. Hail Satan. That is all. Will, with this landmark ruling of Judge Sean Hodgman's,

ruling in favor of somebody forcibly making somebody try to like something else, in this case metal, is there an early contender for what you think will be that first go-to metal song that you will try to pass by Caroline? It's probably going to be another one from that Merciful Fate album. It's a good album. With your lawyer, John Darnielle of the Mountain Goats, strongly advocating for it via tattoo even.

I think you have a good chance with that one. John Darnielle, any follow-up you need to have with will and caroline before before they leave i mean the only thing i would say is like uh uh be uh caroline you should be be uh really um what's the word i want to say be mindful that he stays in his present tastes because my recent leanings have been towards stuff that causes my wife to to make visible faces of distaste. I speak, of course, of progressive metal. Arch Mateos, Faith's Warning, Jeff Loomis' two solo albums of instrumental guitar metal. And this stuff will make you yearn for the days of disembodied.

Oh, no. Oh. Well, thank you, John Darnielle of the Mountain Goats. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you. And thank you, Will and Caroline. Well, let's clear the docket. Would you, oh, let me hear the spiel. Well, the spiel is that genre really only exists

in order to breed enthusiasm among consumers, right? But in point of fact, for musicians, music is just a broad spectrum of sound. And genre is only a way of describing it. It's not, you know, you don't like or not like a genre. You like or don't like a piece of music, you know. And it's kind of like with Merciful Fate. It's not that you don't like heavy metal.

It's that the timbre of his voice might not appeal to you. But the notes are the same. They're just expressed in a certain texture, you know. So I don't think of genre as really being a thing except for a useful shorthand for describing what's going on in music. Dudes, dudes, excuse me.

Why don't you guys get your own podcast already? It's like you're obviously in podcast love with each other. Meanwhile, I'm in chambers here. I got to clear the docket. You're going on this whole philosophical debate about genre

and I got a guy who wants to know whether a wallet is a pocketbook. Nathan writes, I feel that the item a man uses to carry his money and credit cards, etc., should be called a wallet. The female equivalent is called a pocketbook. Finally, we're getting down to this. This is the important step. My wife disagrees.

She thinks they all should be called wallets, and that the actual purse can be called a pocketbook, which makes no sense to me whatsoever. We ask for your help in settling this. John Darnielle, what do you think? I have a strong opinion on this that I suspect you and I will be at odds about for years to come. Let's go. They are all purses. What?

They are all purses. And I think they're all pocketbooks, or as my Bostonian family would say, pocketbooks. Pocketbooks? Wait a minute. Are you saying that words have no meaning, John Darnielle? No, I am saying... Like, not only are there no genres, there are also no definitions of words? That's correct.

There's just one giant sound. No, uh, uh... Was that disembowelment? Now you are talking. I can relate to everything you just said. That's the er sound of existence. No, I think purse is just a superior word in all forms. And I think you start getting these, you know, when Shakespeare said,

who steals my purse steals me, right? Sure. It's all illiquid, right? Well, he's probably talking about a pocketbook or a wallet. These are all various ways of describing your purse, which is the thing that you use to carry around your money. They called it a purse because they didn't have a wallet at that time. I think they did have wallets.

I don't think they had a word for it. I think the purse was a thing you just carried in your pocket. in the 19th century, where at that time you could carry your money on your belt like you would a purse, like a man carrying a coin purse on his belt in the 16th century would do. It would also, you could carry dried meat. It was also a beef jerky purse.

I need one of those. But by the 20th century, wallet has a very distinct meaning, right? Which is a billfold with slots for cards, maybe a coin purse within it, and no strap, and it can be put into something else. I want to say that my purse position, by the way, is 100% an affectation that I came up with a second before I announced it. Oh, of course. In point of fact, I think... Here's what I'd say, but here's where we agree, which is that gender has no role in these definitions whatsoever.

If a woman has a thing that she puts credit cards in, cash, and it can fold up and you put it inside something else and it doesn't have an independent strap mechanism, that's a wallet. Just because it is touched by an unclean womanly hand does not turn it into a pocketbook, which is, by I think all common sense definition, something that contains multitudes

and has a strap on it, right? And purse, similarly, you could call a wallet a purse. I will grant you that in a big vehicle sort of way. But men used to carry purses all the time and women carry purses. Of course, a purse is a small thing that you carry your treasures and your Slim Jims in. With a strap or without a strap? Because I think there's a little bit of a debate between if it has a strap, is it a purse, or is it a pocketbook?

That's a handbag. It's a pocketbook. No, a pocketbook is smaller than a handbag or purse, I think. Well, you're not the Russian dolls of little bags for women. You've been listening to the Monty Belmonte, John Darneel, Agree to Disagree podcast. While, meanwhile, the last gasp

of the Judge John Hodgman podcast comes in with the final word. Wallet is genderless. That is all. John Darneel, what's going on in your life? Do you have something you want to talk about on the podcast? You got a record coming out?

I do have a record coming out. I always feel really weird about pitching stuff at the end of stuff. Then you shut up. It's called Transcendental Youth. It's fantastic. Thank you very much. I'm excited for it to come out because when you sit on an album, you record it and you have to wait six months or so for everything to get lined up

and I've been wanting people to hear it for a long time. So I'm really excited for people to finally hear it. And I'm touring a lot and getting ready for the baby's first Christmas as a conscious entity. He was around last Christmas, but he really was sort of just drifty in the way of early babies. So I'm really excited for that. So you see Transcendental Youth is the name of the album? Yes. See, that's how you do it, everybody.

That's how you name an album. You don't have to push it with 19 big words like Cerulean transcendence of the peripheral alchemical moods or whatever. You don't need to murder a rival band, maybe. Just call it something good like transcendental youth. I should confess that the working title was Infernal Youth, and then I got to thinking about things that changed it to transcendental. Interesting. Was the black metal creeping in? got to thinking about things that changed me to Transcendental.

Interesting. Was the black metal creeping in? No, it was just that I didn't think Infernal was what I meant when I stopped and thought about it, because as a would-be intellectual, I think it's my job to overthink what I'm doing. Well done. Thank you very much. Object lesson received. Monty Belmonte,

you're still kicking it on WRI's side of the river, 93.9? Every morning, very early, 93.9, playing an eclectic mix of music, but perhaps not as eclectic as the music we talked about today. A little bit more in the pop rock vein. And we're broadcasting live from their studios. From our studios right now.

Live on podcast. Yes, and if he's going to buzz market his child's first Christmas, I should buzz market my children's first movie, the really great Cinderella movie, which you can watch on YouTube, narrated by none other than Judge John Hodgman himself. Alright, you know what, guys? I'm leaving. Goodbye. Thank you for

joining us on the formerly known as Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Hail Satan! The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville.

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