Judge John Hodgman - Getting Justice Today

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

It's time to clear the docket! This week, we're tackling disputes about the theater, and we have two very special expert witnesses: the award-winning duo Kristen Anderson-Lopez and Bobby Lopez! Between the two of them, they've made some of the most memorable musical theater works of the modern era: Frozen, The Book of Mormon, Avenue Q and so much more. They've come by to lend their expertise to settle disputes about the ending of Pippin, post-show etiquette in community theater, and – of course – lots and lots of Sondheim.SUBSCRIBE TO THIS PODCAST in APPLE PODCASTS or the RSS FEED.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. We're in chambers this week clearing the docket and with me is the entertainment industry's foremost triple threat, Judge John Hodgman. So anyway, Kristen, what you need to do is you just need to replace the struts like on an El Camino, you know, just pop in some hydraulic struts. John, you have to introduce our guests. John, you have to introduce our guests. Sorry, I didn't realize you were here, Jesse. I was just talking to my friend, Kristen Anderson-Lopez. And down below her in the teleconference screen, I see her friend, partner, husband, and whole human being in his own right, Bobby Lopez, also my friend and whole human being in his own right, apparently has no rhythm. Couldn't slate with us on time.

Couldn't clap. I was just a little earlier. Just a little anxious. A little ahead of the beat. Ahead us on time. Couldn't clap. Couldn't clap. I was just a little earlier. Just a little, little anxious. A little ahead of the beat. Ahead of my time. Yeah. And we're just talking about hydraulic struts, Jesse. We're just having a good time because we're old pals. Because how do you fix this droopy tailgate? Yeah, exactly.

My tailgate has been drooping on my station wagon. It keeps hitting me in the back of the head while I'm leaning in. And I mentioned to Kristen that I used to have a similar issue with the tonneau cover on my El Camino when I drove an El Camino, and that just had hydraulic struts. And I just went and got new ones and snapped them on. Pop in some new hydros. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I'm a real gearhead. Welcome to Car Talk with Bobby Lopez and Kristen Anderson Lopez and me, your judge, John Hodgman. We're about to start reading some email forewords. I love car talk.

Of course, we're not just pals. We are also co-workers. In their profession, Bobby and Kristen are celebrated and renowned and very good songwriters, having written the songs for certain movies like Frozen and Coco, and also the songs and created a romantic comedy musical television show that happens to be called Up Here. Now, I'm not promoting the show, Bobby and Kristen. No, we can't. The Writers Guild is on strike. I'm not recommending that anyone see this show.

But it is a matter of historical record that you made a show called Up Here on Hulu. And I played the weird dad Tom in it. And it's a matter of historical record that it's a heartwarming toe-tapper of a show. But I can't say that you should go see it. Because I'm a member of the Writers Guild of America. And I'm proudly on strike with my fellow union members. We are fighting for a livable and predictable living for union writers in Hollywood, New York City, and the world. So go check out my Instagram page, my link in bio. You can see all the information about the Writers Guild strike and how you can

support that strike, which you should. But that't mean that the friends can't talk to each other right that's right or even confess that we wrote the entire uh series so that we could work with you it was just all all just a very evil plan to how do we make how do we bring more john hodgman into our life that's very kind you know when i was a literary agent, I had one rule, never write a book in order to have written a book. You know what I mean? Like you have to have one inside of you that you have to get out. You know, the reason for writing a book isn't to have written one. It is to say a thing. And similarly, never write a musical romantic comedy in order to work with John Hodgman. It doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm glad to be a part of it. Anyway, a while ago,

we put out a call to you, the listeners, for disputes regarding the theater, the musical theater and the non-musical theater, the Broadway stage and the off-Broadway stage, the legit theater and the illegit. And you came through with a whole bunch of disputes. And I thought, who better to help us adjudicate these theatrical disputes than two top theatrical professionals, whom I happen to know and really adore, Bobby and Kristen Anderson-Lopez. Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Show.

Hello. Now, before we get into... Sorry, you were going to say something. No, I was just going to say, thanks for having us. Our plan worked, Bobby. You can infiltrate my life at any time, at any time. But before we get into it, I know that you are listeners to the show. And I'm very grateful for that. Have have we gotten anything wrong lately? Do you have any beef with any of my beef settlings of late? Anything wrong? No. Well, I would just assume that everything you say is right. Well, I thought you were fans of the

show. Apparently not. If you were a real fan of the show, you would have written me three emails in the time I asked that question. Well, we don't play a lot of board games and we don't, you know, we've never, we've never even read lot of board games and we don't, you know, we've never, we've never even read the rules of settlers of Catan. Right. Well, no, it's okay. Some respects. Look, you get what you get and you don't throw a fit. And I'm grateful for your listenership no matter what.

Got a lot of letters about that one. Bobby told me about the get what you get and you don't throw a fit. And I thought that was actually a really wonderful nuance. I didn't get to listen to that one because sometimes Bobby wakes up earlier than me. Right. And consumes the podcast before. And I know you've done many, many shows about when a spouse consumes the show that you share together. We've broken that rule.

That's, I don't know what rule there is. I just, listens to is fine to say consumes makes me feel like you want to wear my skin or something. It's a little bit cannibalistic. I was telling Valerie before that, that Sketch Fest was epic. Just, just a true classic. That was an incredible episode. Just unbelievable.

Beep! Remember that when we commissioned you to write the songs for the musical adaptation of that particular episode. We're here. It's time. Beep! Let's get into the cases. We have some cases, right, Jesse? Here's something from Amy

in Evanston, Illinois. The school I work for produced a run of Sondheim's musical Company a few years ago. And Kristen and Bobby, when Amy says Sondheim, she's referring to the musical theater composer, lyricist,

songwriter, Stephen Sondheim. Stephen Sondheim. Stephen Sondheim. If you want to wiki that. Thank you for that clarification. The director of the show made a choice that, in my opinion, ruined it. They updated it from its original setting in 1970, giving all the characters smartphones. This throws the entire concept into chaos.

For example, there are plot points about getting lost in a car. Impossible if you have a smartphone. Also, Bobby's friends feel the only way for him to meet a girl is through them. What about internet dating? Please rule that company is set in a very specific time and should not be updated. Now, Bobby and Kristen, you know, we lost Stephen Sondheim after an incredibly long and amazing life last November. I never had a chance to meet him. Did you? We did. We, we, I mean, Bobby really is the first one who met him.

He did Bobby's. Bobby, did you deliver Steven Sondland? I was the first person to meet Steven Sondland. I thought we were kind of the same age, but okay, wow. All right. Well, you look great. What a career change. He knew Bobby first, I mean.

He actually did. Bobby used to stalk him, much like we stalk you now. And he and his high school friend went and dropped a demo tape, a cassette, at Sondheim's house. And then Sondheim ended up doing his college recommendation. What? I know. It's going to blow your mind. I didn't know this.

I didn't know this. The guy wrote back to anyone that ever sent him a demo tape. He was just the absolute model of, you know, what you should be as an artist, paying it forward. But you didn't send him one. You dropped it off. First of all, that's creepy. If someone dropped off, if you, if you, you're my friends, if you dropped off a demo tape to me, I would be like, I would say to my wife and a whole human being in her own right,

probably Kristen are getting a little weird. Well, after we, after my friend and I had dropped it off and by the way, my friend's mother had found a way to, uh, to tell him we were going to do this. So it was expected. But yeah, the big joke by sneaking into his closet. Is that how she found a way? Her mom, her mom knew someone who knew someone who knew someone and it all it was all it was all it was okay. It was all okay. It was not it was not it was a little creepy, but not too creepy. No, no, no, no. I understand. But every time we thought about what his reaction would be,

it always involved just doing the sound of a toilet. Right. But no, he did listen and gave me encouragement. And he did that to just anyone that's ever written a musical that's our age has a bunch of a stack of letters from, from Steve. And well, anyone who had the chutzpah to actually say like, Hey, will you listen to my musical and give me feedback? There are those of us who were too Lutheran to do that. They were like, oh, no, I wouldn't want to bother him.

I don't want to waste his time like that. I should probably just imagine what he would say, and it would probably be something very critical. It's like imagining what he's saying inside his mind in that company documentary as he sort of stands in the back of the room smoking cigarettes and looking contemptuously at the entire cast recording process. Shaking his head no the entire movie. Yeah. We're talking about the D.A. Pennebaker documentary, a cast recording, right? Original cast recording?

Original cast recording company, which is one of the great things. I only watched it a couple of years ago after years of hearing how great it was. It's one of those things that just delivers completely. Well, let's bring it back to the case at hand, which is this case about company, which was the Sondheim musical of 1970. Kind of his big breakthrough, right? Wouldn't you say? Was that his first big original? Funny thing happened? Well, yeah. That big breakthrough, right? Wouldn't you say? Was that his first big original? Funny thing happened?

Well, yeah. He had already written West Side Story and Gypsy. But the lyrics only. He didn't do the music for those. Right. Yes. And then he did the full score for Forum and something called Anyone Can Whistle. And then he took a couple of years off and

wrote Company and Follies and All Night Music, which were one after the other, you know, three consecutive years of absolute brilliance. And so, but with regard to Company, it's pretty much the overall consensus opinion is that this thing stinks, right? Isn't that what you say on the street, the street of Broadway? I think, I think it was actually the opposite that it was incredibly groundbreaking.

It was Sondheim also breaking out of his sort of traditional, very musical theater, very Oscar Hammerstein influenced kind of idea of what musical theater was and allowing the pop culture of the time to penetrate not only the set and the theme but also the music it's got elements of back rock and elements of pop in there, while also going into sometimes more signature style, which is the sort of making the lyric, the form that's going to determine the function or the function is going to determine the form, I mean. Right. And so it's a series of vignettes, very contemporary for his time, as you say, about a group of friends, all of whom are married or soon to be married or coupled off except for

one. And they're all kind of reckoning with Bobby, not you, Bobby, but the main character, Bobby is, he's trying to decide whether or not he's going to have a significant other or not. And as you say, it's very groundbreaking and contemporary for the time, which was 1970. How important is 1970 to the story of Company, in your opinion? Well, it was just done recently, and I thought it was a beautiful revival where they said it in the present, but they made Bobby a woman, they cross-cast. And I thought it worked really well. He had to rewrite a bunch of the songs to change male names to female names, etc. He was involved with it. I thought it was actually super funny.

It was the funniest company I ever saw. But, you know, if you don't have a great concept like that, best to leave it alone and leave it in the 70s, I think. My favorite part of the orchestration is this this electric harpsichord sound that could only have really, you know, it proliferated in the 70s. proliferated in the 70s. It was called the RMI Roxy Chord. And it has like a just the most brilliant kind of tinkly sound ever. You hear in the opening bars of Another Hundred People Just Got Off of the Train. Right. Sung by Pamela Myers. That's right. In the original Broadway cast. You know what? Let's hear that Roxy Chord. Valerie Moffat, can we hear a little bit of Another Hundred People as sung by Pamela Myers with the Roxy chord in the background, please? hundred people just got off of the bus and are looking around at another hundred people who got off of the plane and are looking at us who got off of the train and the plane and the bus maybe yesterday it's a city of strangers and also i just need to note the performance of beth howland in that who i had known as um i think was vera from the from the tv show alice but she's the original she played um

amy in the original cast of company and had that song i'm not getting married today which is impossible to sing pardon me is everybody here because if everybody's here i want to thank you all for coming to the wedding i'd appreciate you going even more i mean you must have lots of better things to do and not a word of it to paul remember paul you know the man i'm gonna marry but i'm not because it wouldn't ruin anyone as wonderful as he is. Thank you all for the gifts and the flowers. Thank you all. Now it's back to the showers. Don't tell Paul, but I'm not getting married today. And you see her singing this song, speaking of the lyric becoming the song, being the shape of the song and having Sondheim go, no, you're doing it wrong. She just did this incredible thing. He's like, nah, you did it wrong.

So he had supportive, constructive criticism and then just devastating criticism. He sort of pinches his finger at her and says, this is the permanent recording for all times. As hard as it was to be a cast member for Sondheim I think it had to be harder to be Sondheim living with that voice in his head all the time yeah yeah right um which I I actually want to go back and and disagree with my partner and human in his own right um uh because i actually think it's very hard if you're going to set company in the 70s it's very hard to sit there and not just go he's gay like why is nobody else

seeing that he's gay um but if you update it and you bring it into this moment, you can kind of bring out new resonances, like the way that we are all so isolated now by our own digital lives and these devices that we have. And then you can start understanding like, oh, isolation in the case of this Bobby fellow who's keeping everybody at bay. I think that the wonderful thing about theater is, and especially timeless theater, like anything Sondheim has written, is that you can find new meanings.

Even if he was writing from a place, whether he knew it or not, of what it was like to still be a closeted man in 1970 who didn't wasn't able to get married and so had to deal with all of that in in his own life how that loneliness and isolation kind of kind of uh can resonate now in so many other ways. I love the music, the 70s-ness of the music. Right. So for me, it's hard to separate that from the setting and the costumes and the, I don't know, I don't remember the getting lost in a car. When was that?

Yes. What part of the show is that? What plot point is that? There is no plot. How could there be a plot point? Well, maybe it's a detail from this one particular production because the fact is as you say there's just a scene like in rushmore where there's two people in a cutout of a car steering but there's literally not that scene like maybe

the husband and wife who wrestle fight over directions at some point. It must be someone telling a story or remembering something. Right. Well, I'm sure that Amy isn't lying to us specifically. Today is for Amy, which is a lyric from Company. I saw the most recent production on Broadway, which I was so thrilled to get to do, John. Actually, I tried to go see it in London when we were last at the London Podcast Festival, which is now, I don't know, six years ago or something, five years ago. And it came to New York. I was making

plans to come and stay in your guest bed and go see it on Broadway when it transferred to New York. And that was when the pandemic happened and it closed, I think, in previews or something like that. And so I wasn't go to that show. I thought it was so great. I was so happy that I got to see it. I think I stayed home that night and watched like Picard or something. Yeah, I think that sounds right. Yeah.

I think I stayed home that night and watched like Picard or something. Yeah, I think that sounds right. Some of the juice of the show comes from expectations around coupling that are different now 50 years later than they were then. And I would presume that's one of the reasons that they switched the genders to get a sort of a different perspective on that. But in addition to what Kristen said about the protagonist being obviously gay, I think that the kind of expectations around coupling are different. And I can understand why that would complicate setting it in a contemporary context. But for me, either one is cool. Like, it's such an amazing thing. I do have to, can I ask you three this before you render your verdict, John? Of course. I have to request a sub-verdict. Listeners to this show probably at this point know that I attended arts high school. And my wife and I did theater at that arts high school. And I did a couple of musical theater performances.

Did you say that arts high school or bad arts high school? Bad arts high school. No, the arts were really excellent. One of the things that kept me out of the arts until, of course, I was cast as the star of the hit television show Archer, is that when I got to college, I was like, this is way worse than my high school. But yeah, really, really excellent, talented people at my high school. And I was in a couple of productions, musical theater productions. Once on Jordan Jessica, we had John Ross Bowie, legendary comedy guy and playwright, improviser. And he said,

what did you do in high school, Jess? You went to arts high school. What'd you do? Mother Courage and Her Children? And I was like, yeah, we did that with the Three Penny Opera. Those two together. But anyway, the musical theater thing was like a little set off from the rest of the theater department. Theater department had its own productions. Musical theater was like for all the kids in the school. So some of the kids who were singers, for example, or dancers would be in the musical theater productions. And there was this big discussion one year, there was a few like really serious, really talented musical theater kids. And one of them was a girl who I found true love when I started dating my now wife. But there were those who went before.

And so anyway, I was in, let's say I was in discussions with this girl to join this production and this girl and the principal and stuff. And we ended up doing a little shop of Horrors, which is great. It was one of my favorite things. So fun. What a blast. Nothing could be more fun

than to do the comedy bits in Little Shop of Horrors. Alan Menken and Howard Ashman. Legends. Legends both. But before that, the discussion was doing Company. And I had not seen it at the time,

so I didn't know anything other than I love Little Shop of Horrors and I want to be the dentist in that. But when I finally saw Company, and I think I saw the PBS version of it with Neil Patrick Harris et al, like 20 years later, I was like, wait, what did we want to do as 17 year olds?

What was the, what? This is a show about midlife crisis, essentially. Like you could argue quarter lifelife crisis depending on how but it's like a show about what it means to be a grown-up essentially and it dabbled in the sexual revolution as well like the yeah the whole barcelona sequence but that part that part was cool like that part no problem at my high school like I'm going to be frank with you, at my high school, much wilder things were going down than dabbling in the sexual. We were all doing a fair amount of various types of dabbling. It was Barcelona all the time.

Yeah, exactly. But we can stipulate that that's bonkers, right, For 16-year-olds to do that? So that's the sub-verdict that you would like. All right, I'll put it to you, Kristen and Bobby. Is Company a show that should be put on by 16-year-olds? And I'm going to, before you say anything, it's going to be yes or no. And you're going to answer at the same time i'm going to count down three two one and then give your answer ready three two one yes yes yes don't you want to sit in the audience and watch a a sophomore sing um absolutely sing here's to the ladies who lunch when i was in when i was in fifth grade i was i fifth grade, I was, I was pitching our sixth grade, you know,

play be follies, which is about even older people. Right. Follies performers in a reunion. Now that you say that there is a girl that I dated in high school. Lovely. Now a lovely woman named Trinity. Trinity would have Trinity would have destroyed Ladies Who Lunch

so I take it all back don't you want to see Jesse Thorne at 15 saying have I got a girl for you wait till you meet her I'm glad that you accurately intuited that I would not be at the center

of this production just like this guy's an orbock at best we you got to save those pipes for your star turn it um the music man kristen what were you gonna say um bobby was actually in it at age 19 20 um. He was the jilted groom. Oh, right. Paul. He was Paul. Yeah, you were Paul. Yes. Jilted. Yeah, and I had never realized that that was meant to be sung while wearing no pants, just a tuxedo and boxer shorts. Well, but that's in one production. In

another production, it could be sung while getting lost in a car, even though you have a smartphone. different viewpoints and even Stantime obviously approved of and rewrote songs for the switch in genders and took out some other dated material and rewrote it. So I don't know that you could say that company, while it exists in a specific context that's important in its history, it lives in company time, basically. It's like it's its own world. And I think that you can do it in a way that is neutral enough in its presentation that it retains the 70s-ish music that you love so much, Bobby,

but also invites more contemporary interpretation that you like, Kristen. Two great tastes that go great together. Mmm, delicious. Company. The question is, though, should it have smartphones in it? And I'm going to say here and here and here's, I'm going to ask for your opinion again, three, two, one.

Should a production of company have smartphones in it? Three, two, one. No. No. Oh. Wow. Should it be the center? Like, should it all be all about smartphones?

No. But there are telephones. There's telephones in it. And as long as you are telling a story using the words that the author put down because you need to stay with the words and the music that were created um by the author um whether it's because there was a there was a book writer in this case uh probably credit george george birth george birth like you cannot you cannot change the words. That's a big, that's a big, important thing. But beyond that,

a production lives in a specific time with those specific people and that specific audience. And that's the beauty of theater is that it continues to be a living, breathing organism with each production that you put up. Well, I have to say, I have been swayed and I agree with Kristen Anderson-Lopez. Look, there's a possibility that you could put smartphones into company and it's dumb

and maybe this production was it, but that doesn't mean you can't ever put smartphones or another update. You got to try it. And in this case, Amy, I'm sorry you didn't like it. But don't tell Paul, you're not getting justice today. Let's take a quick break to hear from this week's partners. We'll be back with more cases to clear from the docket on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

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on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N Cookware.com. Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. This week, we are clearing the docket. Here's a case from Daniel in Boston. I recently made a new friend who's a passionate Broadway musical fan. She's a millennial, and I realized she only knows musicals

from the 90s and later. No Rodgers and Hammerstein, no Lerner and Lowe, no Frank Lesser. When I told her my favorite musical was The Music Man, she said, well, I guess I can see that if that's nostalgic for you. Oh, wow. Oh. Valerie.

That shot's fired, Jesse. Valerie, a broadside. Please order She Gave the Music Man and other classics of the 40s and 50s a chance. They can be enjoyed without irony or nostalgia. Well, I would argue that there's a significant amount of irony embedded in the Music Man, but go ahead. Go ahead. You guys are the experts.

So, Jesse, I know the Music man is very dear to your heart bobby and kristin do you do you have a like a childhood fave because the music man is daniel's childhood fave musical like was there one that you really associate with just loving up when you were a kid something that just listened to all the time maybe something that got you interested in musicals or maybe not just something that, that you love that you would enjoy on a, I hate to say it, but a nostalgic level. I mean, I have, I have like 10. Um, but if I had to say, what was the, what was the album that, that really opened the gates and made me, um, sort of pledge my life to this art form.

It was Annie. It was Annie. Yeah. Um, because there was someone who looked like me, um, who was singing about, about being an orphan.

It should be pointed out that Kristen Anderson Lopez has no pupils in her eyes. I'm wearing, I'm wearing a red dress with a Peter Pan collar right now. But yeah, Annie was a gateway for many of us in the 70s and 80s. But then immediately after was Oklahoma. I played Lori in second grade. And I mean, you know, what's more fun than somebody, a little second grader, seven years old singing, I can't say no. Bobby, what about for you? What was your gateway drug? Hair?

No, it was the music Man was one of them. Yeah. The Music Man was... You know, I wasn't really aware that these things were old. I just loved them. And so we loved The Music Man, My Fair Lady, West Side Story. Just... It was like a whole bouquet of wonderful stuff that just...

That that was, you know... And how were you introduced to these musicals? Did Stephen Sondheim bring them to you personally i don't know it's my my mom and dad they were they were they they loved it um yeah but i did i did love assassins actually i i was 15 when it came out and i and i was like the president of the assassins fan club it tracks folks it tracks he's so hot um i i actually have to have to tell you about my my fair lady experience too please um so my mom must have taken me to see my fair lady at a community theater somewhere i grew up in westchester until I was 14. And that weekend, I guess she took me on a Friday. And over the weekend, I wrote a 20 page adaptation from memory of what of the entire My

Fair Lady story, except I changed a few things. I wrote an Eliza as a child pre-scene that was a lot like my classroom in the 80s. And I also changed the ending to Eliza does not stay with Henry Higgins. She leaves him and then goes and teaches all the Cockney people how to speak English. Not dissimilar from how it ended at Lincoln Center a few years back. You're saying you're owed royalties. You sent a cease and desist letter. Litigation was ongoing. Her teacher discovered this.

She was sent a copy of this recently. We got it in the mail and I got to read it. And it was all from Kristen's memory as a fourth grader. So it contained the very memorable line, Eliza, you ding-a-ling. All over the place. All over the place. They're calling each other ding-a-lings. Which I think we have to do this concert.

We have to do Eliza, you ding-a-ling. Eliza, you ding-a-ling in concert, for sure. Front row. this concert we have to do eliza you ding-a-ling eliza you ding-a-ling in concert for sure oh i'd front row so obviously you know we were all introduced to musicals outside of time unless we were growing up like bobby in new york front row first opening night of assassins dressed up as andrewfield, your favorite. Most of us were getting these things out of the, out of our parents' record collections. And I would listen to Camelot and I would listen to what else? My parents took me to see a production of hair when I was about nine in

Boston. I don't know that they knew that the act one ended with full frontal nudity of the entire cast. But I think they would have been cool with it if they, I mean, they definitely were cool with it. But it was very exciting for me. I learned a lot that day. And Jesus Christ Superstar was big in my parents' record collection as well. Obviously, they're all from the past because you're young.

But they don't feel like nostalgia acts to me company doesn't feel like a nostalgia act to me so what do we say to daniel's millennial friend well i think that if she truly wants to keep exploring musicals and understanding them you You can't, you can't watch Book of Mormon without knowing that Music Man was highly influential. You can't watch Hamilton without knowing Evita was, was hugely influential in an autobiographical sung through musical. All, all musical theater is in dialogue with what came before. Right. So in order to truly understand it, you need to kind of look back can still really enjoy broadening your understanding of these things that you love. Right. Daniel's friend, you heard it straight from Kristen Anderson Lopez, and I quote, you can't watch the Book of Mormon, period, end quote. So there you go. I think that the further back you go in musical theater history, the closer

you get to, you know, to the original tradition of American musical theater of, you know, reviews, things that are about the songs, you know, things that are about production numbers of songs. And you get into, you get further and further into shows that are about, here are our 12 best songs for this year. And many of those songs are, especially in the one that you might see now, the productions you might see now are some of the best songs of the 20th century and can be appreciated entirely without irony. There's no irony necessary for those great songs of the 30s and 40s. You know, they're just great standards. They're the great jazz songs of our time. Um, and you know, the music man, here we go. The music man,

I would argue is a bad example of this because the music man is, is I think itself a commentary on nostalgia. Um, like I think it is, uh, in some ways an, an indictment of nostalgia. But, um, I think in general,

like if you're really just talking about shows that are about beautiful songs, hung on simple stories that are moving because music is incredible and it's fun to see people in costumes dancing and that enhances the experience of songs. What irony is necessary? You know, like I think that there is this idea that like getting into sophistication in musical theater necessarily means irony and self-reference and all of those kinds of things or dialogue with other forms besides

musical theater. Um, and like, I think there is so much to be gotten out of what if we had a show of beautiful songs, um, that told a love story and had wonderful dancing and costumes. You know, like there's really a lot to be said for that. You don't have to. Something that is unapologetically itself. A musical that is not about being a musical. Kind of like what we talked about the first table read of up here. Not that I'm promoting it.

But I remember when we did the first table read of up here not that i'm promoting it but i remember when we did that first table read it was your and and and tommy kale that the director of those first two episodes and your co-executive producer who was like there are other musicals on tv some of them are about being musicals ours is just a story that is told partly in song and why not and it's wonderful it's a thing that is just itself it is not in reference to anything else i think is sort of what you're saying jesse yeah and it requires no ironization like i i think to some extent the ironization of musical theater is a defense mechanism against its you you know, its inherent sincerity. It's all porny.

The willingness to accept something that is both non-ironic and not presented to be realism is sort of, and it can be an uncomfortable thing for people who are used to one or the other, right? Who used to bifurcating those two things. Either you're making Dog Day Afternoon and you're pretending that this is pure realism or you are ironizing it. And musical theater is musical theater it is a way of expressing something that is uh deep not just quote-unquote realistic although it's funny there has not been a musical of dog day afternoon that does seem weird attica attica attica that's one of the best works from the director of The Wiz. Yeah, I don't know, Daniel, what your friend's beef is with the music man, because you don't really present her point of view. Her beef with the music man is she hasn't seen the music man.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And, you know, we have settled on this um podcast that uh you can't make people watch something you can't make people watch a tv show you can't watch a movie you can't make people i guess see the music man per se but you can offer them the chance and i think that a question does it say that she loves the musicals past the 90s? Is that, what's the exact wording? It says she is a passionate Broadway musical fan. She's a millennial. And Daniel realized, quote,

she only knows musicals from the 90s and later, mostly. She may be a glee musical theater fan. Uh-huh. Right, mostly. She may be a glee musical theater fan. Uh-huh. Right. Yes. As an elder millennial, I missed the mark. I was going to say that the passionate musical theater fan makes me think that if she took the time to go see Eliza Udingling coming in 2027 at 54 Below, that she'd be like, oh, there's something there. There's like, wow. That speaks to me too. And it probably is just a matter of exposure. Yeah.

I think Daniel's friend needs to, as a passionate musical theater fan, friend uh needs to as a passionate musical theater fan needs to get some free tickets or access some of those um wonderful like under 20 especially for millennial and gen x seats um and go see go see eliza you ding-a-ling and um all of the other versions of old musicals that we're going to do and put cell phones on. Yeah, let me just give a little warning to Daniel here. Daniel, you're a friend of the show and I appreciate you. You write us a letter about your friend. You impugn her taste and you don't even give her a name. We don't even know her name.

I mean, I think that the worst, the mistake we should not make is to repeat what Daniel has done, which is to presume that her taste is bad or to make assumptions about her taste. We don't know. We don't know what her point of view is. But I will say that, yeah, like, as you said, Kristen,

the history of this art form, as all art forms, is in dialogue with its past. And it's not an issue of homework to go back and look at this stuff in order to be the right kind of fan. It's fun. It's fun to see those connections. These musicals last for a reason. They're fun.

They're good. You'll probably enjoy them. And if you don't, that's fine, too. But I think, yeah, Kristen's right. Get some free tickets. Get some millennial tickets. Hey, Daniel, why don't you buy her a ticket to the Music Man, you

cheapskate? You're the older person here. If you wanted to see the Music Man, buy two tickets and offer and see, and if she says yes, then you then she has a chance to enjoy it. And if not, I don't know. It's not still on, is it? It's not still playing? Did it close? The Music

Man? Yeah. Is it still on Broadway? No, no. I think it closed. It's not still on, is it? It's not still playing. Did it close? The Music Man? Yeah. Is it still on Broadway? No, no. I think it closed. It closed? Yeah. Okay. When Hugh Jackman left. Yeah, there's no one.

It had to have closed because there's no one else who can play the music band. Once Hugh Jackman is gone. We don't know anyone, yeah. There's not a single person in the world, never mind in our extended orbit who could possibly play henry hill the music man on who isn't who isn't too busy starring in archer i have a thought about hugh jackman and the music man i saw the production it's that he's a very good dancer wow just cross him right off the bullseye list right off the bullseye list. Right off the bullseye list. Sorry, Jack.

Yes. The Music Man concluded its record-breaking, much-loved run on January 15th, 2023, according to the website. So, Daniel, you missed your chance to take your nameless friend to see The Music Man. But I do encourage nameless friend to be open-minded about the things that Daniel likes and give him a try. But you're not ordered to. Just like what you like. Here's something from Gabriela. My friend Ariel and I both love the musical Pippin. In the climax of the show, Pippin is tempted to end his existential journey by lighting himself on fire in a literal blaze of glory. But he refuses. After this, the musical famously has two different endings. I prefer the original Broadway ending, where Pippin awkwardly stands on a bare stage and says, ta-da. Ariel prefers the revised ending from 1998,

in which Pippin's adopted child sings a reprise of Pippin's opening number. This suggests the whole show is going to happen again, part of a generational cycle. Who's right? Ooh. Now, Kristen and Bobby, this is a matter of opinion. You're not having to choose between your friends, original Pippin and new Pippin who wrote original Pippin and new Pippin respectively, because I'm sure you all in the Broadway bowling league together. Yes. Stephen Schwartz is, um, is a friend of ours and a hero. Um, and it's a really fascinating thing that he went back and, and changed it. Um, and that's the, that's the amazing thing that as long as we're still alive, we can change these things. Now I had not known, I had not seen Pippin since Peter Rosenmeier played Pippin

in the high school production at Brookline High School back in the 80s. I don't remember how it ended. I didn't know that there are two different endings. Pippin, for those of you who don't know, is a pretty fourth wall breaking musical, right? About a young man in a sort of fantasy realm who wants to discover his purpose in life. And he is aided and tempted and goaded on by Ben Vereen and a bunch of actors.

Is that about right? In white gloves. In white gloves. Yeah, right. Ben Vereen was the 70s version of Wolverine. That's right. Yeah. Instead of claws coming out of his hand, it was Merit Light cigarettes. Ben Vereen was the 70s version of Wolverine. That's right. Yeah. Instead of claws coming out of his hand, it was Merit Light cigarettes. Ben Vereen played the leading player of this traveling theater troupe that would talk directly to the audience.

And then encourage Pippin to find different ways to... It was a very me generation kind of musical to a degree. It's like, who am I and what is my life supposed to be about? Am I a fighter? Am I a lover? Am I a seagull destined to fly to heaven? Right. Am I a rabbit in England that foretells the doom of my warren? What's going on with me?

Me, me, me, me, me, me. Well, he's got to find his corner of the sky. He's got to find his corner of the sky. Cats fit in the windowsill. Children fit in the snow. his corner of the sky. He's got to find his corner of the sky. Cats fit in the windowsill. Children fit in the snow. Children fit in the snow. Why do I feel I don't fit in any place I go? It's a beautiful song.

It's a beautiful song about the most important thing. What is a white guy going to do for his career? How is he going to get famous, basically? How is he going to be famous? Incredible show he going to be famous incredible showstopper and pippin what color is my parachute and as he tries all these different things to be famous and meaningful he gets more and more disenchanted right and then he meets a woman who has a son and he feels this temptation to just have a normal life that isn't a huge gesture uh and the and the lead player says don't compromise you have to go out in a blaze of glory set yourself on fire

and he says no i'm not gonna and then i know this because i just watched the 1981 production in canada they filmed for canadian television with Ben Vereen as the leading player and William Catt, that's right. The greatest American hero as Pippin. Ben Vereen gets so mad at him. It's like, you, you don't, you want to go for this? You want to compromise for this? Have a wife and a child and be a good human being instead of being an incredible actor. And he's like, yeah, I think I do. Ben Vereen takes all of the staging away he makes

everyone take off their costumes he takes the backdrop away and leaves william katt and the woman and their and their and his adopted son alone on stage with all the artifice of theater gone all the flash and the magic of theater gone and the woman says to the to william katt aka pippin how do you feel? And he said, trapped. That's pretty good for a musical comedy is what he says. And then he goes, ta-da, black, fade to black. Wild ending. I didn't know that they had this other ending.

I don't think I've ever seen that one. That's dark. It's really dark. That was it. That's the Bob Fosse version. You can understand that coming from the mind of him. Right, because he directed the original production. Right. The idea, I understand, is that the child will then sing,

what was the song we were just singing together so beautifully? Corner of the Sky. So Pippin leaves the stage and then the child sings Corner of the Sky and then Ben Vereen sneaks back in there to start the whole thing all over again you have this kid interested i'm gonna say i i'm gonna say that's a more interesting and more musical theater uh ending i i think that steven schwartz knew what he was doing when he went back in and said, like, I think, because here's what I know historically about Pippin.

Give it to me. He worked on it. He went to Carnegie Mellon, and he was working on this show. It had a different name, I think, at the time, with a colleague at Carnegie Mellon. And then he came to New York, and I think Godspell got made. Godspell got him. And then he went and started working on Pippin.

But he was still like a very young, maybe 21, 22 years old. And at some point at like age 22, he had three shows on Broadway. Cause it was he was also doing the magic show with uh a famous magician as well and he had done music for that um oh the magic show i with date was it david doug henning doug. Whoa. We are really going on a 70s deep dive. We really are.

I am, as they say, here for it. Thank you. I'm enjoying this very much. But what I think, without having his biography here, which I read a couple years back, if I remember correctly, working on Pippin, he was a very young, young composer and was working with Fosse. And Fosse was a very strong, very lauded and celebrated director with a very strong vision at that moment. And a fairly grim, a fairly grim point of view of life. Yes, yes. He, Fosse, from what I know from the amazing Fosse-Verdon miniseries, one of my favorite shows created by Steven Levinson and Tommy Kail, is that Fosse had a lot of childhood trauma and a very, and was a womanizer and really dealing with a lot of stuff, but also a hard, a hard collaborator. Yeah. And, and if you're like 22 years old and you're like,

I have this thing, I don't know. What do you think? I'm going to find my corner of the sky. He's like, sure kid. Anyway, you were saying. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think, I think that we, we can assume that the Broadway ending was the Bob Fosse ending and that the 1998 ending is the Stephen Schwartz ending. I always err on the side of the writers. What did the writers want? It's true that Stephen Schwartz has said that he prefers the newer ending, the perhaps reconstructed ending that we're're theorizing i think it's

reasonable to theorize that maybe bob fossey had cut or dissuaded him because i was just doing a little math in the background you're absolutely right he was born in 58 so when pippin came out in 1972 he was 24 it's wild that's wild and that ending according to wikipedia the original closing line was how do you feel pippin i feel trapped but also happy that's pretty good for musical comedy tada so in that 1981 video for canadian television that i found you can find it on youtube if you want to see it and be really bummed out uh they cut happy. It's just, I feel trapped. The end. Or maybe there was a misprint in the Wikipedia or what have you. Whoa.

If I had seen what I saw on that video in the theater, as much as I love William Catt and The Greatest American Hero, I would be very, very, very bummed out. Especially if it was Canada in the wintertime. I think it was in a heated theater. They did it on ice. Yeah, that's right. The part of Ben Vereen played by Wayne Gretzky. Yeah.

All of the players are actually literally players of the Toronto Maple Leafs. It was a weird production, for sure. But I'll tell you what, William Catt looked incredible in that. Looks incredible with his shirt off. Just a point. Anyway. Did we decide the case? Well, it's time to go.

Well, not quite yet. Although you may be hinting that you would like to be done with this episode. We're not quite done. Jesse, do we have some more cases? Yeah, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, more Sondheim. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney.

I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I.

Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will.

Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. We are so close close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximumfun.org if you need a laugh and you're on the go judge hodgman we're taking a break from clearing the docket we can't plug anything right now that's written by uh members of the Writers Guild of America because the Writers Guild are on strike. Right. I am on strike. So you know the

things that I made for TV and it's up to you. It's factual. They're out there. You can watch them if you want. But obviously there are some things that I made that are not covered by the strike, such as those books that I wrote, Vacation Land and Medallion Status. You know, I just went and signed a copy of Vacation Land for someone at Books Are Magic on Smith Street. And I'm always willing to sign and personalize books. If you want to order from Books Are Magic online and just request a personalization, I'll go down and walk down there and I'll sign it for you. So there's something if you want. But Jesse, you know, I enjoy a radio program called Bullseye.

It's an interview program on NPR, Terrestrial Radio, and also wherever you get podcasts. You're familiar with the show, right, Jesse? I host the show, John. That's right. You do host the show. You know, it's like I'm not listening to it for friendship. I'm listening to it for the incredible high quality interviews with incredible creative people. quality interviews with incredible creative people. And my understanding is that you had an encounter, an interview, something even more with Mary Steenburgen. Is that right?

I did. I interviewed Mary Steenburgen. Mary Steenburgen, I am prepared to marry at this time. Right. She is happily married to Ted Danson and I to my wife, Teresa, but I'm willing to throw it all away for Mary Steenburgen now. Maybe the four of you could have an open relationship. I wouldn't be opposed. Uh, that's on Bullseye this week. It was a really great conversation. And I had a very special interaction with Mary Steenburgen, which is that, and I'm sorry to say this publicly, but it's basically the nicest thing anyone ever said to me in my entire life.

So I thought, you know, people might not have listened to Bullseye, whatever. But during the interview with Mary Steenburgen, we were talking about, she studied with Sanford Meisner, one of the greatest acting teachers. And one of the things that he taught was presence in the moment through various exercises and so forth. And she gave the example of working in a scene with Robert De Niro, who she called Bob, walking down the street. And she said, you know, she said something to the effect of she felt she could do anything because Bob De Niro was so present with her walking down the street in that scene. And I thought it was what an amazing anecdote. And after the interview, we had a nice conversation outside the studio and

she went and went downstairs. And then my producer got a phone call and said, oh yeah, no, he's, he's still up here. He's still up here and hung up and said, oh, Mary said she wants to come back up and tell you something. And I was like, oh, okay. And I was like, I don't know what it would be. I'm sure. And she came back up a few minutes later, came back into our office. And she said, you know, working with Jane Fonda inspired me to remember to say these sorts of things out loud. But when I was downstairs waiting for the car, I said to my publicist something that I wanted to come back and tell you directly, which was that doing that interview was like the experience of acting with Bob De Niro. Whoa. And, um, and she said, I just wanted to tell you directly because I, I didn't want it to be left unsaid

since it was something I was saying to someone else. I thought I'd, I should say it to you. And, uh, it was really wonderful conversation. She's so wonderful. And it was just such a kind compliment. And I couldn't, like, I literally, I really had to fight to keep from just crying in front of Mary's team person right then and there. But anyway, it's great conversation. And I don't know if it delivers on that level for for an audience member but it was a pretty incredible experience for me so um go listen to mary steenburgen on bullseye and i just like to say jesse that you know i i've left this unsaid too long that when i record the podcast with you i feel like i'm in a remake of meet the parents let's get back to the docket. Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We're here with Kristen Anderson Lopez and Bobby Lopez, Cable Ace Award winners, and we're deciding musical theater questions. Here's a case from Abraham in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. My wife and I, sorry, sorry guys. I just looked it up. Blockbuster Entertainment Awards. Here's a case from Abraham in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. My wife and I attend a community theater in a small town in South Dakota. At the end of each performance, the cast members stand in the lobby as the patrons exit. My wife says it's appropriate to interact with them and give them feedback. I believe any sort of critique other than thank you or a compliment should be saved for a different and less public time. Who is right? Well, I. He is. All right.

Go ahead, Bobby. He's totally right. I would even say he doesn't go far enough. Like, frankly, I don't... If I was doing community theater in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, I would want no feedback other than thank yous or compliments, unless I was asking someone whose opinion I wanted to know because I wanted to get better, in which case I would ask. There's a famous letter. Jason Robert Brown makes no – he doesn't try to hide the fact that he had a very famous thing happen, and this involves Stephen Sondheim. He went to go see sondheim's show he was another

um another sort of mentee of uh sondheim and they were friends and sondheim very generously invited him to come see one of the first previews i think of Passion. And afterwards, they went out to dinner, and Jason Robert Brown was kind of silent, like didn't say anything. They talked about lots of other things, but Sondheim very quickly got very sullen and was like, I'm leaving. And then Sondheim wrote Jason a letter saying like,

when I invite you as a friend to come to my show, your job is to realize that I am vulnerable. I am in a place where I need, I need my friends to tell me something nice. The fact that you stonewalled me completely was ungenerous and um it was i you know i don't have verbatim what he said but basically jason um writes very very eloquently about how when an artist puts themselves out there unless they are asking for critique. It is the job of, it is our job to clap for them. And it is our job to, to say, you know, wonderful job. What a great thing you created. What a wonderful night. Unless they specifically ask for like, okay, how can I make this better? What can I do? Right. But I will point out that in the case of the small town theater in South Dakota, the cast members are literally putting themselves out there.

Yes. In the lobby. That's a strange choice. But they're not putting themselves out there in the lobby for feedback. They're putting themselves out in the lobby to build a relationship with an audience that might come to their shows in the future. They're out there to gather adulation from their fellow local dentists.

It doesn't say, are they facing the audience as they exit or are they turned around and bent over? I have Abraham's full letter that we read in our out-of of town tryout for this episode and we decided to cut it a little bit but uh in the in the full letter it says it should be noted the layout of the building is shotgun style leaving very little room for other patrons to leave if one stayed and chatted with the cast so it sounds like they're literally putting themselves in in the way of the audience in order i presume to enjoy the post-performance feeling and get some and and be and get some

adulation as jesse said see i read this in a different way i i agree obviously that if you are going to see any kind of show and you see the actor afterward, particularly if the actor is standing in the lobby or whatever, even if they're out there going, here I am, that's not a time for you to go up and go, I have some notes on this one night only performance that's over now. I have some notes. That's only a time for you to say, that was wonderful. Thank you. Effusive praise. That's only a time for you to say, that was wonderful. Thank you. Effusive praise. That's it. I get the feeling that Abraham feels not that his wife is being too mean to these actors,

but talking to them for too long. And that maybe he feels a little bit shy and is using this whole geography of the theater, things like, it's just causing a traffic jam. We need to get out of here. I don't want to just make some feel uncomfortable to talk to the actors. That's my interpretation of what's going on here. But I don't know. That's, that's a, that's a guess.

It's making me think about community theater and the intention of community theater, which, um, these actors aren't paid. They are doing it for community, not only to have community themselves, but to give something to the community. But it is all on a sort of celebratory, voluntary, like we do this because we love it. You come because you're supporting us and this thing that exists in our community. And so in general, it's not the forum for like harsh critique but it's part of the contract yeah i don't think i don't think there's any harsh critique going on at this if there is abraham's wife stop it i just think that there is a

difference there's a friction between how much post-show chat Abraham is comfortable with compared to his wife's. But Jesse, you were going to say something. I would make one exception to the no critiques rule. And this is something I've thought about a lot. In the days of Tumblr, I wrote a Tumblr about it. Like when is it appropriate to offer feedback and in what forms is it appropriate to offer feedback to creators? One of them is compliments. One of them is when they have asked. And I think a third is I do think it's appropriate to offer negative feedback to creators if there is a, I guess what you might call a moral issue involved. So I do think it's appropriate to offer feedback that there is, you know, let's say there's a broad racial stereotype in a show. I think it's appropriate to offer that feedback. Even that feedback, I think presuming the goodwill of the creators is generally your best bet, especially if they're, you know, your dentist.

And so for that reason, I might be inclined to at least start by doing it in a more private context. Yeah, not in the lobby, not in the lobby after the show. I'm presuming that your conversation doesn't block the egress of the rest of the patrons. Yeah, exactly. Just trying to start a riot in the hallway. At the same time, I'm imagining Abraham just walking by these people who have been singing and dancing all night and not making eye contact. That is in itself sort of what Jason Robert Brown was describing. He did to Sondheim that night of like, we're not going to talk about this thing. I just watched two hours of your very hard work and we're not going to talk

about it because I don't know what quite to say. And I'm going to, and I'm going to use the fire hazard of your presence in front of the exit to be an excuse for not saying thank you. Look, I don't know, Abraham, if you're just shy,

I'm reading a lot into you. I'm doing sort of the same unfair thing that I felt that we shouldn't do about Daniel's young millennial friend, which is presuming all of your intents and purposes. If I've misjudged you, I apologize. I agree with the words that you wrote. Any comments in the lobby to actors hanging around who are making themselves available should be restricted to compliments and thank yous effusive if you please and i do believe they are out there looking for

those compliments and you know what they deserve it for doing community theater in sioux falls south dakota good for them let's hear it for them and then you can move on to your car and go go get your pizza or whatever you're going to do that night. We opened with Sondheim. We closed with Sondheim. Here's a case from Ariel in Baldwin, New York. I think there should be a production of assassins with a bunch of dachshunds running around on stage. It would fit perfectly with the surreal setting of the show. And Lee Harvey Oswald had a bunch of dachshunds. My friend says this is a bad idea because no one would get it. But I mean, everybody loves to see dogs on stage. Isn't this a great idea?

I think we have to turn to the president of the assassins fan club, Bobby Lopez. What say you to this concept? If people don't know Bobby, if people haven't seen Assassins, don't know the synopsis, aren't on their Wikipedia right now, explain what the theme of the show Assassins is and why Lee Harvey Oswald and Dachshunds would come into it in some way. Well, Assassins is a musical review, a hybrid. It doesn't have a plot, but it's themed around presidential assassins. And it envisions the beginning. Anyway, it takes place at a carnival where you were invited to step up, shoot a prez, and win a prize. a prez and win a prize.

And it has all the assassins from Booth to Hinckley singing accounts of what they did and why they did what they did. And it's about a certain underbelly of the American dream. It's sort of

Music Man-esque in that sense. Yeah. Booth is sort of the Harold Hill of it. And I don't know. I mean, dachshunds, how would that really fit? I'm already working on a lyric, though, that I am unworthy

of your love, wiener doggy. Let me be worthy of your love. We've already established, Bobby, that you that you are the preservationist. You want to keep company trapped in amber. Yeah. Whereas Kristen is willing to interpret and reinterpret.

And I don't see. And what do you think, Kristen? You think these dachshunds should be on stage? That would be pretty hot, I have to say. Well, you know what they say about working with animals and children um uh it's not good that's the famous saying um uh i i think that i i'm going to stand by my original thesis which is if there's something about the wiener dogs that helps everybody, spokespeople for gun control let's say then those wiener dogs deserve to be up there let's let's assume that that suddenly america gets fully behind gun control because wiener dogs are in the commercials yeah let's assume that kristin let's assume that fair fair assumption we could also um it could also be a CGI movie like Cats a little bit, but you use, you personify each assassin with a.

James Corden. A different, yeah, wiener dog. There we go. And James Corden has to be in it because James Corden is in every, every film, musical film that has ever created. He sings. He sings on his show. Did you you not he does some singing i have i have i have seen it one day one day i wanted him to invite us to come sing with him hasn't happened no i think it's too late maybe if we did a show with wiener dogs called eliza you ding-a-ling

john i don't know if it says this in the original letter, but would it be different if they were shorter, long hair wiener dogs? As long as it's historically accurate. Okay. That's all I care about. Fair enough. What length hair wiener dogs would there have been at Ford's Theater? I wish I had learned that in my American musical theater class at UC Santa Cruz. What length hair did Lee Harvey Oswald's wiener dogs have? Did they have long hair ones? Doesn't

that feel like sort of a modern, it feels like the equivalent of a smartphone. They engineered wiener dogs to have this long hair. Gang, I'm sorry that I was, I'm sorry that I was a little absent on this last one for the past few minutes because a couple of things happened. First of all, Sorry that I was a little absent on this last one for the past few minutes because a couple of things happened. First of all, the premise of this whole letter is wrong. Lee Harvey Oswald didn't have dachshunds. Jack Ruby had 10 dachshunds. Oh.

Including his beloved dachshund Sheba, whom he left behind in the car when he went to go kill Lee Harvey Oswald. So Ariel, I can't ruin your favor as much as I like this idea. Your history was wrong. I'm already getting letters. We haven't even released this episode yet. Please stop the letters. I got it. I fact checked it. I apologize. And then I also got distracted because I was, I was looking at the old town theater in Sioux Falls, which is, which is where Abraham doesn't want his wife to say anything to the actors and leave in stony silence.

They'd have some photos of them from their spring 2021 presentation of Godspell, which are incredible. These people are amazing and they deserve a lot of praise. Go thank your actors and your performers politely. But yeah, no, sorry, no wiener dogs and assassins. I hope you feel good about that, Bobby, that I saved the sanctity of your precious show. Something inside me just relaxed. Ariel, you have to write a musical about Jack Ruby if you want to see those dachshunds on stage. That's another one. Oh, coming soon to the Old Town Theater in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Ruby and dogs. Oh, coming soon to the Old Town Theater in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.

Ruby and Dogs. Speaking of thanking our artists and performers, our thanks to Kristen Anderson Lopez and Bobby Lopez. Yeah. Heroes of the arts, true heroes of the arts, whether or not they have a Blockbuster Entertainment Award. Spoiler alert, they don't. Never gotten one. We don't.

Snubbed every year. Snubbed every year. They don't even have an MTV Movie Award for Best Kiss. Yeah. But we should work towards that. We're working towards it every day. That's right. But friends and heroes, brilliant geniuses,

very kind of you to share your time with us as always. Thank you, Kristen and Bobby. Thank you guys so much for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Anytime. Thanks for having us again. Hey, before you go, do you have any, do you have any disputes you want me to settle between you two? I, I've thought about it and I think, I think I, I think it's too, I don't come out looking good on this one. So no, I don't want to.

What is it? What is the dispute? Oh, I tend to always insist on driving. Yeah. In our family. Do you do a good job? I'm really good. I'm a really good driver.

Yeah. That's the narrative and bobby's a really good really good navigator like he he understands technology in such a better way he's able to create cues on the playlist i like i wouldn't even know how to do cues when we play DJ. He's able to handle like, oh, let's Google Maps over here and let's Waze it over here. He's really good. Do you ever let him drive? Very rarely. Only if I've made bad choices at a party or after dinner when I'm in the car. She lets me drive our daughters, which makes me think somewhere inside she trusts my driving. She just can't.

She can't not be the driver. Yes. I don't come off looking good here. I recognize it. No, I think you probably do a great job. Sorry, Bobby. Yes. Love it.

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