Judge John Hodgman - Go Set a Tip Jar

Episode Date: September 2, 2015

Two friends co-host a literary reading series as a labor of love. Should they begin to seek donations?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. I'm your good time, summertime guest bailiff, Monty Belmonte, from WRSI 93.9 The River in Northampton, Massachusetts, in for Jesse Thorne. This week, go set a tip jar. Emily brings the case against her friend Danny. They co-host a monthly reading series together. It's a labor of love, and the events are free. Emily thinks they should ask for donations to expand

the series. Danny says that would make for an unhappy ending. Who's right? Who's wrong? Who killed off all of your favorite characters in the first two books? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman

enters the courtroom and issues the obscure cultural reference. Spy rock is a sub-genre of popular music from the early 1980s, about which one of three things may be true. One, spy rock does not exist. Two, spy rock does exist, but only in my own mind. Or three, spy rock exists and is well known to everyone, except me, and it has already been described in great detail

by some music aficionado, thus rendering my essay a complete waste of time. Summertime, fun time, guest bailiff Monty Belmonte, swear a min. Danny, Emily, please rise and raise your right hands. Place them on this copy of War and Peace. Do you promise to tell the truth through the best of times and the worst of times? Sucks to your asthma, piggy, but never to kill a mockingbird?

So help you, original Atticus Finch or whomever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that on this dark and stormy night, you should call him Ishmael? Yes. sounds good. Thank you. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Danny and Emily, you may be seated for immediate

summary. Well, I should say end of summary. I love it. I knew you would. That one was for you for you monty because you love puns and it's the end of summer i do it's great in fact by the time you listen to this probably summer will have been well over and i will no longer be in the summertime home of the judge john hodgman podcast w-e-r-u in blue hill maine sitting across the dials and knobs from Joel Mann, the third man, our main time producer here? End of summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I quoted slash paraphrased as I entered the courtroom? Emily, you bring this case before me, seeking justice. Take a crack at it. I am not sure what it is at all. I'm going to guess that it is an essay from the believer. I'm not going to say one thing or the other yet. Danny, you got drug in here by your friend, Emily. Hmm. I'm not going to say one thing or the other yet. Dani, you got drug in here by your friend, Emily. Yep.

To answer for your crimes, do you have a guess? I don't, but I'm going to make a guess that I think is probably wrong. Is it an excerpt from the upcoming Vacationland tour? You know what, guys? Let me say this. Both of those were great guesses that clearly involved some thought and consideration that I appreciate. And more than that,

I appreciate that you both made guesses, thus allowing me to tell you all guesses are wrong. Okay. That is the opening of a lecture delivered by David Guion, G-U-I-O-N, co-writer of the movie Dinner with Schmucks. performed in the year 2004 on the subject of spy rock, a musical subgenre that he defines in detail,

at the 26th Little Grey Book lecture that I presented in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, in a former mayonnaise factory as part of a literary reading series that I curated for many years. Well, specifically five. Now, beginning 15 years ago and ending 10 years ago. And we would have readings of original essays and stuff that people had written, and maybe some songs and maybe some spelling bees and dog shows. And one time David Wondrich dressed up as George Washington

and made a colonial-era punch for everybody. That's awesome. We had a good time, and it's all over now, time and it's all over now and very few remnants of the tapes that we made of them exist because we were making them on tape i think we were making them on on scotch tape or wax cylinders or something because that was a long time ago but david gillen's Spy Rock essay from the themed Little Grey Book lecture, Secret of the Secret Agents, is one of the great ones. Very, very funny and should have appeared in The Believer. And maybe I'll quote it in the upcoming Vacationland tour, making all guesses right in a way. But right now you're wrong. And I only tell you about this because you guys are running a literary reading series, I believe in Portland, Maine.

And so I'm suing you for stealing my idea. Oh, no. Oh, crap. Unless your reading series is boring, in which case that is a long-standing idea that's been around for a lot longer than what you and I are doing. Is your reading series boring, Dani and Emily? I'll ask Emily first. It's not boring at all. It's not boring.

All right. So, first of all, you are in Portland, Maine. Is that correct correct so depending on when this particular podcast airs will you be or did you or have you already been to my show in Portland on September 13th you know what we probably won't go because we're going to see you in Boston on the 12th yes well before you... You bought the tickets before you made the Portland date. Well, I didn't think that a Portland date would work, and that's why I said on this very podcast that Boston would be my only New England appearance.

I heard you say it. That's why I went and bought tickets. I know, and that's why I'm so glad to be able to apologize to you now. But so many people got so mad that I was doing a show called Vacationland. And I felt really bad about it. And do you know what else?

Then suddenly that night became free, so I said, let's just do it in Portland, Maine. And because you bought tickets for Boston, I'm going to put you guys on the list. You can come to the Portland show if you want. For free. And anyone else who bought tickets for Boston because they lived in Maine, they didn't think I would come here, well, you're out of luck. You

still have to buy tickets for Portland. I'm ordering you to. So, Emily, you bring this case before this court. Tell me a little bit about your reading series. What is it called? three authors of varying genres come up and read their original work before, you know, a bar audience of people that are excited to hear about it. They're in, they're in a bar. Yeah.

And what, and what are the, what are the genres? Slash fiction? We, we have had flash fiction. We primarily, we have,

we do like the, the main three being fiction, nonfiction and poetry. We've also had, all right main three being fiction, nonfiction, and poetry. We've also had a play performed. Cut poetry. Because you want to make some money on this, right? Isn't that the whole reason that you're doing this, Emily? That's true. You want to put out a tip jar?

Yes. All right. And Danny doesn't want that to happen. That's right. Danny, why don't you want to put a tip jar out? I think mostly I just feel like it's kind of tacky. We've been running this series so well for so many years, and we've never done that before. And I feel like it would just be sort of weird. It's working. I feel like we shouldn't try to fix it if it's not broken. The other thing is I think I'm really fine with raising money if we're really transparent about where the money is going. We've raised money in the past to get a new sound system and we funded a book that we're putting out soon.

But if we were just collecting money at the bar without some sort of campaign, I feel like it might seem like the money would be going to the authors, right? Because that's the art that people have come to see. And I don't think that we can guarantee a consistent honorarium to pay our authors. Right now, we just pay them with two drinks each on the house, and it seems to be working fine. There's no cover to get in the bar. We don't have that many expenses. I feel like if we collected money, I don't know where it would go.

And I feel uncomfortable asking people for money without telling them what we're spending it on. So if it's been going so well, Emily, and it's, and it's successful, right? Like how many,

Emily, how many people come to hear, to hear the fiction and and non-fiction and sit through the poetry um i would say i'm not very good at estimating numbers i'd say maybe you know we get a good maybe 50 people come uh that's great yeah it's a smallish bar and we always have many people standing because all of the seats are also full. So. Oh, that's terrific. And everyone has a great time, right? Yeah, it's the best. Yeah. And I don't mind buzz marketing it because it's a it's a local main business. Yeah, thank you. What is the bar called? LFK. LFK?

Yes. What does that stand for? They won't tell us. I think it's Longfellow's Kitchen, but they're really mysterious about it. They actually will tell you it stands for Little Furry Kittens. Little Furry Kitten? Yeah. All right.

We got some attitude there. Cool. So, Emily. Yes. How much does it cost to do this thing? Why do you want money so much? Why do you love money? I feel like that's sort of a two-part answer. The first part is how much it costs right now. We do have a couple expenses. Go ahead.

The only sort of constant expense, which is pretty minor, is we do make buttons and give them out for free. And Danny might forget that because I'm the one that buys the supplies and makes the buttons. What's on the buttons? Words? It's a picture of a typewriter and our initials WP for Word Portland. Oh, thank you for telling me what your initials stand for. Because the way I hear it in Portland, people are pretty cagey about their initials. You're very welcome, John. All right. So how much money are you throwing at this button endeavor?

So that, as I said, is a pretty minor expense, but it is an expense. It's about $25 every time I make the buttons because I already own the equipment, which the equipment originally was about $100. Yeah, no, you know, I have one of those button making machines and it is a real joy to make a button or, you know, but those, those machines are not cheap yeah it's an investment it's an investment another thing is danny mentioned a sound system which we we started the reading series with no sound system and we just spoke loudly uh we eventually upgraded to a guitar amp which um we've gotten a number of complaints about that it still isn't really doing the job. So that's a thing that we currently need money for. We don't have a good sound system. And do you feel that your audience, your preferred method is to soak up money from your audience via passing a hat or something?

Yes. um yes so right now we do currently have a donation button on our website which is i'm guessing rarely visited no no one's ever no one's ever going to press that right we don't we don't mention it we've gotten a couple donations through that and literally i mean a couple i think we've gotten to yeah you know i don't think i don't think a i don't think a donation button has been pressed on a website since 2003. I don't think people have gone to a website since 2014. And they're certainly not pressing those donation buttons. They are not. What kind of hat?

Like a fancy hat? Like a poetry hat? I do have a couple of nice hats. I also have a nice basket that I sort of had in mind, but I do have a top hat with a feather on it, and that would be kind of nice as well. Go with the basket. I like the basket.

Nice basket is a good idea. I mean, if I so order it. Because never mind what Danny, who hates money, feels. how much do you expect you could get in that basket um i'm i'm not sure it would be awesome if you know a third of the people threw in between one and ten dollars uh and so if i do the math really quickly that might be $50 well let me ask you this who's paying for the drinks

for these poets and writers LFK so they're giving away free drinks to these deadbeats yeah they are and so the benefit to them is they got a bunch of people coming in there buying food and drink. What would you guess the patron is spending their 10 or 20 bucks on drinks and snacks or something like that?

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So why do you want to pass around a basket? Why don't you just charge these people $2, $5 to come in? Well, I do love money in that I want people to give us some voluntarily. I don't want to make the reading cost money. I like that it's a free reading, and I think that's important. Well, either it's going to be free or it's not going to be free. This is what it comes down to. If you're going to routinely pass the hat and guilt people into throwing in a few dollars, then it's no longer free.

And it's not free for them to begin with because they're coming to pay money to be there anyway. And the reason that they're doing it is because you guys are providing them something that doesn't exist unless you make it and that they want. Right. Right? So why is your time worth zero dollars? Why not charge? Good question. I haven't thought of it specifically that way before.

Dani, would you be more upset if I ordered you guys to start charging money for this thing? Yeah, that'd be the worst, John. Why do you hate money so much? Oh, man. I feel like, you know, there's... Why is your time worth nothing? Oh, man. See, that's the hard part, because I do feel like if we appreciate art, we should pay for it.

I feel like art is valuable and I'm happy to pay for it. Oh, I'm not talking about paying the writers. They get paid in exposure. I think I have an answer. Could I answer? Yeah. Is this Emily speaking? Yes, this is Emily. So one of the reasons is we do invite an audience to come to the reading. And a lot of the people that come there are there to see it. But some people just happen to be in the bar. And I'd really like to open up the experience to them. And we have had people happen upon the series and get excited and come back to it.

But if we charged people, then we wouldn't get new people that didn't know about it. If we were an exclusive party and we charged, I would be happy to charge people if we had an exclusive party and everyone really wanted to come see it. But since people are just at the bar,

I want them to be able to experience the art and come to it on their own instead of deciding before they've even seen it whether or not they're going to come based on paying us. I don't know why you care about those deadbeats. But all right. instead of deciding before they've even seen it whether or not they're going to come based on paying us. I don't know why you care about those deadbeats. But all right.

Where do you find the writers? This is Emily. So first, we first started by choosing some writers that we know. We both studied writing in school, so we know some writers. Wait, wait, wait wait wait wait wait a minute yeah emily how old are you um i'm 31 danny how old are you 29 where did you study writing in school the university of maine at farmington also the University of Southern Maine. Also Emerson College. Are you masters of fine arts in writings? Only Emily. I'm a master's of fine arts. Danny is a master of the art of publishing.

So you have master's degrees in writing and publishing. Yeah, we do. You really do hate money, don't you? Yeah, we just threw it all away. I'm a teacher now, too, so I'm just never going to have money. Is that Danny? I'm a waitress. Emily is a waitress and I love money. I teach

eighth grade. Oh, yeah. That's tough stuff. It's the best. Those kids smell probably. They do. They really do. I know. I'm having a real hard time figuring out what's going on here. Mm-hmm. You know, because I don't know that there's, I don't understand Emily.

Like, I don't agree with Danny. Right. That everything should be free. Right. From my point of view, you know, when I was doing these little gray book lectures, and even now when I go out on shows, I try to keep the cost down as low as possible. But I want, even the little gray book lectures, I knew I had to establish a precedent that some money would be paid. Right. And that was $2. And guess what?

The audience was happy to pay it. Yeah. Because it's not a lot of money. But I needed to do it in order to establish that this is something that I'm not just doing for fun. This is something that I'm investing a lot of time and care in. And while no one's going to get rich off of this, having the small admission price

allowed me to raise up enough money to sort of keep in a cash purse so that if I needed to, say, fly someone in as a very extravagant expense or just get someone a car home or, you know, pay to rent a visual project, like an overhead projector or something, that that money was there as a backstop to pay for that stuff. But most importantly, it just set the precedent that I am charging money and this is worth money. That's how I think it should be done.

You think all these podcasts have put themselves out into the world for free and then all of a sudden two, three, four years go on and they've created a huge body of work and it's very hard to monetize. And one of the things I like about MaximumFund.org is that this is a very high-minded public institution, but the transaction is clear. We're going to ask you for money. We're going to pass around a tip jar during pledge time.

It's the same thing that happens here at WERU in Maine. You can pledge 1-800-643-6273. If you want to pledge to WERU in Maine, that's 1-800-643-6273 or pledge online at WERU.org. So that's why I don't agree with Danny. So that's why I don't agree with Danny. But what I don't get from Emily is a strong argument as, you know, why you want all this money other than you just love money. Because your expenses are minimal. And if you really wanted to just raise money for a sound system, then Danny is okay with that right danny i am very okay with that so you could do a kickstarter or yeah um i presume you have an emailing list

and you can just send an email out saying we need you know or definitely or just a specific venture like danny would you be upset if you guys passed the basket around saying we need to raise x amount of money for a thing please give what you can not at all and we have we've done that in the past that's how we got our first sound system and actually I mean yeah well that was it turns out that it's garbage yeah it's terrible um maybe because we didn't get enough money but we um we recently had a benefit night where we raised money so that we could fund a book. And so we edited and collaborated with Pine Pitch Press, who's a local press here. And we are producing this book and we're paying for it with these donations.

And I'm really happy to do that. And the money that we get from selling this book, I want to put right back into that sound system and to buy more and more button supplies. Like I feel like there's a built in way to make money that I feel very comfortable with. What makes me uncomfortable is that if we pass the hat, and then don't give the money to the authors, because I feel like people are going to put money in thinking that it's going to the authors. That's, that's the part that makes me uncomfortable. We all agree no money is going to any authors. I would like to respond to... And you know what?

The authors have agreed to that as well. They have. By default, by choosing their sad, impoverished path. Now, I'm just joking, of course. You could build in an honorarium for the authors and fund that as well. But what I'm not getting from you, Emily, is a clear picture of how much money you want to raise, why you want to raise it, and why passing the basket around is going to be the best way to do it. You just want to get some income going.

Well, may I respond to these questions? You may. They're not questions. They're accusations. All right. May I respond to the accusations? to these questions? You may. They're not questions. They're accusations. All right. May I respond to the accusations? I feel like I originally hadn't finished explaining what I wanted the money for. So there are some more points to that. For example,

this book that we raised money to produce and are in the process of producing, we actually don't have enough money to fully pay everyone as much as we'd like to and also publish the books. Or we're very, very close to, you know, maybe not publishing that many books in our first print run. Like if we only use the money that we have and not dip into our own wallets, we're probably going to print less than 100 books, which we need more than that because I think we'll sell more than that. Well, let me ask you this question, though. Yes. Is the book a Sudoku book? Or is it by John Green? Because those sell well. It is not either of those things.

What is it? An anthology? It's an anthology of people that have read, exactly. Right. Okay. I'm going to venture to guess that's not going to be the way you raise a lot of money. Right. That's I'm going to venture to guess that's not going to be the way you raise a lot of money. Right. That's not my guess either. So far, our only actual expenses right now are the buttons and the sound system, but we also have potential expenses. And I feel like the reason we only have a few expenses is because we don't have any money and we pay for everything ourselves. If we actually had a pool to, you know, to go from and to dream from. A big money pool?

Yeah. A pool of balloons that you could swim in? A big pool of money that we could swim in? A Scrooge McDuck style? Yeah. Exactly. Well, we could possibly do other merchandise, which, you know, like, who knows, like another anthology or maybe bags or something or stickers.

We talked about one time, but we never went into that because we don't have any money. So that's something that we could possibly produce and or give away or sell. We also don't have any money to provide for, like you mentioned, emergency expenses. If we do need to put up an... Let's say unanticipated expenses okay i don't think there's gonna be a lot of emergencies okay and the literary reading word choice is very important a terrible paper cut that's going to require a an ambulance to the hospital and someone's uninsured

you're right word choice is important so on. So what was the word you used again? Not emergency. Unanticipated. Unanticipated expenses. We have had a couple authors that we were excited to invite that potentially accepted our request, and then they said they couldn't do it because they couldn't afford to come down.

I'm not necessarily saying that we would pay those authors and not other ones just because they live far away. Well, what are your ambitions for it? I mean, do you want to grow? not necessarily saying that we would pay those authors and not other ones just because they live far away, but. What are your ambitions for it? I mean, do you want to be in a, do you want to grow? Do you want more people to come? Do you want to be able to invite authors from away? As you say, so xenophobically in Maine. Can I, can I answer? This is Danny. Please.

I don't think we do actually. I think we've, we've prided ourselves on providing like a really quality literary series, but we have a mix of experiences in our authors. And we always, when we look at our submissions, we, you know, people send us a little bio first and we usually skip that and just read the submission first. And we've accepted people who have had a bunch of books to sell by big publishers. And we've accepted people who just wrote one thing and think it's good. And it is good. And we get them to come read. And I think that it's nice that we have sort of a safe space for those sort of things. We don't really want to go to another venue. Our venue is kind of a great size. And if we grew, we'd have to probably find

somewhere else. I don't know. We've talked about this a lot. It's running itself right now. It's going really well. And it's been really consistent for three years. So, I mean, if we wanted to do something else, it would just be sort of improving what we have as far as equipment. I mean, it might be nice to record what we have. We talked about that. That would cost money, don't you think? It would. And then, you know, and then putting out the book is an expense. So, I mean, that's the only, but we, I don't think we want to grow or travel or, you know, it's not necessarily about getting bigger names either. I mean, whoever wants to read is welcome to submit. It must be interesting to live in Portland, Maine. either. I mean, whoever wants to read is welcome to submit. It must be interesting to live in Portland,

Maine. It's like the most anti, like the most bizarro version of New York City that I've ever heard of. We don't really want to get famous people. I mean, they're welcome to come read if they would like. We don't want to get anything out of it. We just like doing it. And I'm not starving, either.

But Dani, you're a master of publishing. That's right. And you've already published one anthology. Is this not somehow an expression of your publishing mastery? Don't you want to publish more books? Yeah, I mean, that would be great. But, you know what, this is the first one we've ever done, I feel like, and it's working. We're coming in a little over budget, but I feel like we'll make that back in book sales.

No, you won't. over budget, but I feel like we'll make that back in book sales. No, you won't. Emily, do you share Dani's lack of ambitions when it comes to this project? I share Dani's view, but I wouldn't call it a lack of ambitions. I just don't think she is accurately or maybe the two of us have not accurately described the reading series. I wouldn't call it a lack of ambitions. I just don't think she is accurately,

or maybe the two of us have not accurately described the reading series. I feel like we don't, we're so busy, and as mentioned, we're not getting paid for this. In fact, we're paying for it. So we don't have a lot of time. But what we do do is really popular here in Portland. And actually, we have had people come from many places in New England, a couple places across the U.S. We even had a reader from New Zealand once.

So we do have a little bit of a far reach. And we've had a number of authors that are at least locally, you know, like Maine and or New England famous. So I feel like we do have quite a good group of people and quite a good diversity. No, no, no. Don't get me wrong. I'm not running down what you're doing and saying that it's small time. I think it sounds great. I guess my question is, you both are equally happy at keeping it at this level,

but you would like to do a little bit better amplification of voices through the sound system? Yeah. And otherwise, just keep it going. I think we want to make it possibly, or I would, I should say, I, Emily, want to make it maybe a little more awesome for the people that are already involved, but I don't think we need to do anything in terms of making it a bigger space or having more people. But I want to make it as awesome as it can be for the people that are already involved. And you're a waitress? Yes.

Or a server, a restaurant server? Correct. Right. Great restaurant town, Portland, is what I hear. Yes, we have many. We have the best one. Why aren't you, but you have a Master's of Fine Arts in writing.

Are you doing your own writing? I am, yes. Okay. And that's going arts in writing. Are you doing your own writing? I am, yes. Okay. And that's going to be, is that the big goal for you? It's the big goal. I like to be realistic, so I'm not really banking on that making me any money. But it is an ambition that I have, yes.

And are you a fiction writer, nonfiction writer, or poet? I'm a fiction writer. Don't worry. All right. Yeah. Well, so you're right straight down the middle. Most likely to make money as a nonfiction writer. Least likely as a poet.

Fiction writer, you're right down the middle. Yeah, that's right. You write some of those John Green books. Maybe you'll make a little money there. Yeah, I'm going to work on my John Green book. Yeah, good. Okay. And master of publishing, you have no desire to go into book publishing or online publishing or use your master's degree beyond. You're also happy to sit in Portland and teach eighth grade.

And this is how you get out your creative energies? You know, pretty much. I'm really happy to sit in Portland and teach eighth grade. And I feel like, you know, the past couple of months, I have been using my publishing knowledge more because we are publishing this book, which has been really lovely. But yeah, I like being a teacher, and I feel like that's going to be my business.

And Word Portland is a labor of love in the off hours for me, for sure. Great. Two satisfied, happy people who are comfortable with their lives. Monty, how am I going to deal with these jerks? I don't know. I don't speak this language. Might as well be talking to Portland, Oregon here. All right.

All right. I'll figure it out. I'm going to find the crux of this thing. I think I, I think I'm going to go into my chambers and, uh, and, uh, and, uh,

and I'll sit and I'll sit in my chair and, uh, and try to, for a moment, feel at peace and happy with my life and see what that feels like. And maybe that'll help me come to some decisions. Listen to some poetry and just totally tune out and maybe. Hang on Monty.

No poetry. Sorry. I'll go into chambers please rise as judge john hodgman exits the courtroom danny who hates money never wants to pay authors uh what what's wrong with a little bit of of shake voluntary donation you know maybe a sign at the door it's free but if you'd like to make a donation no problem you are you open to that sort of idea without even an announcement from your uh terrible public address system you could have like a little sign at the entrance or something like that might that be a bridge the gap danny you know i mean that doesn't sound too bad i think my my worry is we're just not being transparent about where the money's going why won't we be well maybe we will be like because

of the sign we'll have to say like please pay us the curators of this series who aren't reading tonight you know maybe we'll find a nice way of saying it please pay us for this service that you're coming to every time why do you why do you need to disclose this are you afraid to pay authors it sounds like you like if they think we're paying authors this thing is off no i would love i would love to pay the authors i just don't feel like we could get enough money to guarantee you know that i don't think you don't have to that can be between you and each individual author you don't get to do that on a case-by-case basis. Now, Emily, who loves money to the point where you have a top hat with a feather attached to it already ready to collect money. If you can think of anything more pretentious of a way to try to collect money in the in-your-face methodology of this otherwise free event. I have two in a basket.

What about like a soft sell? You know, just one light little statement. Like I said, or like a sign at the door. You know, if we do this for free, we volunteer, but we have some expenses. And if you want to make a donation, that'd be great. Or go the commercial radio route. Forget about MaximumFun.org. Forget about WER.

You do it like we do at WRSI. Sell commercials and or sponsorships. Get Duck Fat or one of those restaurants in Portland to underwrite your whole campaign here. Duck Fat. No. We could have a Duck Fat representative come up between readers and throw some fries at the audience. Throw some French fries. Buzz market them like we're doing right now.

All right. Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say. We'll be back in just a moment with Judge John Hodgman's decision. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you,

the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In.

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Visit MadeInCookware.com. That's M-a-d-e-i-n cookware.com the judge john hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at babble did you know that learning the experience of learning causes a sound to happen let's hear the sound yep that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real-life situations,

and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world, and you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyper-academic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Please rise

as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. You may be seated. All right. First of all, I got to be plain. I've been riding poetry pretty hard. You might think I don't like poetry. You're wrong. I like poetry. Poetry is great. Obviously, I love poetry. It's gorgeous.

And you know whose poems I really love? Billy Collins. Yeah, he's pretty good. Very accessible American poet. Yeah, he's pretty good. I'm communicating with my children better because of the work of Billy Collins. And it all happened because I went to an event where Billy Collins read, and I got to meet him and shoot skeet with him. And we were both terrible shots, but he's a really nice guy. And then he read his poetry. And let me tell you, Billy Collins has comedy chops.

That guy. Some of his poems are very touching and great. And Lanyard is my favorite one of his. And yet that's also a really funny poem. Yeah, that is a funny poem. You wouldn't know it until Billy Collins reads it. And then, I mean, he killed, he destroyed. And there are other good poets too. That's the Judge John Hodgman endorsement of poetry. Billy Collins and other people are good.

No, I mean, poetry is amazing. The reason that I get so unnerved by readings of where there's fiction and there's nonfiction and then a poet gets up is that I just feel so like, oh, what you're doing is so impossible. Trying to be a poet and make a living as a poet is so impossible. It just makes me feel like so protective of the person. And it makes me feel a little uncomfortable. And you know what else makes me feel uncomfortable? Passing a hat. Because the only time I ever see a hat being passed was when I would go to, you know,

when Jonathan Colton was just starting to play songs out in bars with his Jonathan Colton band, and we would go to the Sidewalk Cafe in the East Village and see Jonathan Colton play a few songs, and then another band play a few songs, and then they pass that jar around. And I think there'd be no more universal symbol than what we're doing is worthless. That we are a charity case. That you're giving money is voluntary, but really we know we're worth nothing.

And that's part of the reason, and I certainly knew that the songs of Jonathan Colton were worth millions and millions of dollars. And that's part of the reason why when I started doing my show, I wasn't going, I was going to, as I pointed out to you guys, send the message. There has to, you have to give us some money to value the work that we're doing. And the work that you're doing, I hear you, Danny, when you're like, I'm just afraid we're not going to be transparent. Like, you're really concerned that you won't be able to tell the truth. The truth is, what we're doing takes time and effort.

And there are actual costs involved with it. And we deserve to get a little bit of money. Even if we aren't paying the authors. Now, I think there's a way that you could

compensate the authors a little bit, and yourselves. It's that you could compensate the authors a little bit and yourselves. It's called charging money. Give a little bit of money. And you take a little bit too, because you've earned it. You're not doing nothing. You're doing something. And audiences understand and respect that. What audiences don't respect is someone begging. The only other benefit of experience that I will give you guys is you've done this for three years and you've created a space that people love. And even if you aren't naturally driven to feel ambition to grow for its own sake,

which I value and respect, growth is important to any creative enterprise. And you live in a nice big city in southern Maine, and you have reach to all parts of New England. There are a lot of people around. But you might find that unless you grow, you will find the experience getting a little stale for yourselves. find the experience getting a little stale for yourselves. And at some point, it will reach a natural end, as the little gray book lectures did for me. Either you're going to have to keep kicking it up to a new level, to a new level, to a new level, and grow creatively. And that could mean a bigger space. That could mean paying authors. That could mean a really super, you know, like whatever it means.

Or it can stay the same and then just gradually unwind. And you'll have to be at peace with the fact that it's just going to get stale for you guys. And you won't want to do it anymore. given the benefit of all of that advice, which is, given the value of my two cents, which I think is worth about one cent, I will say this.

Danny is right. Passing a hat sends a bad message that devalues what you're doing, even as you might be getting money for it. And Danny is also right in instinctively knowing that if you change the transaction, all of the sudden, without reason, you're not keeping faith with your audience. Now, you remember how terrible I felt when I learned you guys had bought tickets for my Boston show? Because I had told you guys, I had told the listeners that I wasn't going to be doing any other shows in New England, and then I betrayed you

by putting a show in Portland? I feel terrible about that, And I didn't do anything wrong. It's just that we couldn't do a Portland show. And all of a sudden, for various reasons, we could. And it made sense to do it. But I still knew that I wasn't keeping faith with the audience. And there are a lot of ways, you know, keeping faith with the audience means basically just keeping your promises both explicit and implied. And the promise that you have made to the audience for this reading series is this is how it goes. So even though I think you guys should charge money, you can't now. That would not be keeping faith with the audience. You can't change the game that dramatically at this point. The only way that you could have changed the payment method from zero to something on this would be if you bumped up the services that you're providing by moving to a larger venue or expanding or saying we're going to start paying the authors.

But you don't want to bump it up. You want to keep it where it is. You like it the way it is with the exception of the sound system. So I say, first of all, no hat pass. Sorry, Emily. You made a deal. You're doing this thing for free. You're getting good feelings out of it, as are the authors themselves. Keep faith with your audience. Don't pass the hat. Don't charge admission on this one. Wait until this reading series gets stale and falls apart. And then the next thing you start, you start charging $2 at the door to begin. That's my advice to you. My other advice to you is that you work, you go through the publication of this anthology and hold on requesting money for a new sound system until you've already gotten the

anthology out there, because that was something you did a fundraiser for. And you don't want to do too many fundraisers too quickly. You want to, you want to balance them out a little bit. And then when the time comes and you'll know when it's right, you'll do what we do at maximumfund.org and you just go out begging and you say, we need, we need a new sound system and we need to raise this amount of money. And this is the Kickstarter or the GoFundMe or the method by which we're going

to raise the money or the potluck dinner we're going to hold or whatever it is. And you'll raise that money and then you'll get the better sound system. And then you'll just go back to doing the same thing unambitiously but happily, Portland style, until you can't do it anymore. And I wish you the best of luck. And I would gladly next time I'm available come by and read in your thing

that would be the best and it's just you have to give me $5,000 this is the sound of a gabble Judge John Hodgman rules that is all Danny do you view this as a victory that you now will not have to charge or pass the hat around at your book club here word in portland yeah i'm very relieved monty

and now emily are you prepared to totally just sabotage your you know your current book club here so that you can rebuild so that you can rebuild, so that you can begin charging, so that you can maybe pass your top hat with the feather in around? I'm afraid that's exactly what's going to have to happen. Are you guys breaking up? Oh, I hope not. Danny? We're not breaking up. All right.

That would be painfully sad. I'd hate to see that happen. Well, I hope that... I give them two years. Two years? Yeah. Emily's got bigger, better plans. They've done it for three years.

Yeah. Yeah, Emily's going to publish something or get busy or someone's going to have a change of life of some kind in a relationship or whatever or get another job or have to move. All creative enterprises have a lifespan. And I'm breaking in and breaking the fourth wall of my chambers to say, obviously, the Judge John Hodgman podcast will continue. But this is our last recording here in the studios of WERU with Joel, the third man man. Thank you, Joel.

I've been right about everything so far, right? Yes. He's nodding. And our last summertime fun time talks with Monty Belmonte down at WRSI, the river in Northampton, Massachusetts, my home commonwealth. Thank you, Monty. My pleasure. And I'm glad that our final contestants, contestants, litigants,

in this last recording in Maine are people from Vacationland itself. So I hope everyone who's listening had a wonderful summer. And if you'd like to hear all about mine and other things, you can come see me at Vacationland, johnhodgman.com slash tour. I will aim to keep faith with you. And if you feel you are wronged, we can talk about it afterwards at the signing. But in the meantime, thank you guys both, Danny and Emily, for being on the show.

Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun

or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-H. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay.

there yeah i'm trying to spell it but it's tricky let me give it a try okay if you need a laugh and you're on the go call s-t-o-p-p-b-a-d-i it'll never fit no it will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-b-d-c-o-o oh we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximumfun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Monty, I'm going to miss you. And Joel, I tell you, I'm going to miss you, but you have got to shut up. Will you, Monty, will you please say all the information that needs to be said i will thank you to charles lewis richter for suggesting this week's case name go set a tip jar to suggest a

name for a future case like us on facebook we regularly put out a call for submissions if you have a case for the judge submit it at www.maximumfund.org but definitely do not donate when you're there. No, I'm just kidding. You should definitely donate. I've been your summertime good time bailiff, Monty Belmonte. Julia Smith produces the show. Mark McConville

is our editor. Special thanks to Joel Mann at WERU for engineering for us in Blue Hill, Maine. Thanks for joining us for the Judge John Hodgman podcast. A hot dog in Maine is bright red, and it is not a sandwich. Maximumfun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned.

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