Judge John Hodgman - Grime and Punishment

Episode Date: November 11, 2015

Guest Bailiff David Rees joins us to talk about whether or not a married couple should hire a housecleaner. GOING DEEP with David Rees returns for its second season tonight on the Esquire Network!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm your guest bailiff, David Reese. This week, grime and punishment. Fran brings the case against her husband, Ben. Fran would like to hire a house cleaner to help them maintain their home in sanity with a five-month-old child. Ben refuses, insisting they can do it themselves. Who is right? Who is wrong? Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and issues the obscure cultural reference. You must find it pleasant to be rich. I'm not rich. Oh, I am often mistaken.

I worked as an artisanal pencil sharpener to come over here. A pencil sharpener? What was the intention? I told you to make money to come over here. A pencil sharpener? What was the intention? I told you to make money to come over here. That was the reason. What was the intention? Because if work has no intention, it's not work at all. It's an empty void. Well, what would you call podcasting? For me, this is a religious experience. Here, let me try that. Yeah, I feel it. It's kind of like being in church.

Would you like to try swearing them in, Guest Bailiff David Reese? Yes. Ben and Fran, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, or whatever? I do. I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling? I do.

I do as well. Thank you. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Thank you very much, guest bailiff David Reese, star of Going Deep with David Reese, premiering this very evening on the Esquire Network at 10 p.m. Is all that information correct, David Reese? Yes, totally correct, and thank you. Fran and Ben, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment

in one of your favors. Can either of you, Fran, you, Ben, name the obscure piece of semi-popular culture that I paraphrased as I entered the courtroom. Ben, you are the respondent. I was going to give it to Fran, but we don't do that anymore. Ben has the option as the respondent. You've been dragged in here against your will by your wife, Fran, Ben. So you can choose either to guess or to let Fran guess first.

I would like to let Fran have first crack at this. All right, Fran, you get the first guess. Can you name the piece of somewhat popular culture that I paraphrase as I enter the courtroom? I cannot. I am very stumped. I would like to take a crack at the author um by any chances that F Scott Fitzgerald well let's just say that if you're correct on the author then I will give it to you but I'm not going to say whether you're correct now or not because ben can use that information and formulate his own guess ben is it um it sounds like terry gross interviewing david reese is he the artisanal pencil sharpener that i've heard on like all things considered and ask me another david reese

was and uh and perhaps as a hobbyist continues to be an artisanal professional sharpener. David, are you still a professional artisanal pencil sharpener? Yeah, I have like 15 orders outstanding that I have to do. Yeah, you got to get on that, dude. I know. I got backed up on my road trip.

But in fact, those specific references that I was making to podcasts and artisanal pencil sharpeners were a feint. I was a stand-in for what was actual, the actual lines from the dialogue that probably wouldn't have given it away but I wanted to personalize it in any case your guess is fresh air with Terry Gross and I can safely say all guesses are wrong although you came really close Fran if if you had said if you had said

W Somerset mom then I would have said that is the correct author, but I'm not going to give it to you because we still have to have this podcast no matter what. But I would have been impressed. As it is, I'm still pretty impressed because you were in the right wheelhouse. Can you, now that I've given you that information, can you guess what movie I am quoting from? I've given you that information, can you guess what movie I am quoting from? It's not artisanal pencil sharpening that is a religious experience to this character. It is washing dishes. I wondered if that had been around for a long time. Okay, so washing dishes. David, how long have pencils been around for? Would you say that they date back to the early 20th century? Well, the first graphite deposit was discovered in

1565 in england and so the birth of the modern pencil traces to the mid-16th century so fran okay it could have been it could have been a pencil sharpener but it was a dishwasher in a river in india you're not gonna get it i not going to get it but no that's all right I feel like you're going to tell me and I'm going to know I'm it's something yeah I bet you when I tell you you do know because I will be transmitting that information to you because you'll have told me what's so embarrassing is that teenagers around the world listening to this podcast are so mad at you now fran because the young people are yelling at their fake radios duh old lady it's it's the razor's edge starring bill murray from 1984 not the 1940s edition of the race not the 1940s version of the razor's edge

but the bill murray version that he made apparently this is how he agreed to make ghostbusters he would only make ghostbusters if they allowed him to adapt w somerset mom's tale of a disillusioned world war one soldier finding spiritual enlightenment in india called the razor's edge and he did it and he did it and it was it it was Bill Murray's first dramatic role. And I was right there in the theater to go see it because I was not only a Bill Murray fan at the age of 13, but also incredibly pretentious

and was definitely going to go see an art house movie about a man's spiritual quest in India. Because I was fresh off the jewel of the crown at that point and so I went to see it and I remembered and I was really racking my brains for a cultural reference for this case which is about house cleaning and housekeeping and the day-to-day chores etc etc and I was looking up I was looking up all kinds of quotes from Nell Carter on give me a break and nothing was really coming together but then I remembered this moment in the movie and I I remembered it very very intensely because I remember watching it as a kid and this guy what happens is Bill Murray has worked in a coal mine

to come over to India and he sees a guy washing dishes in the river and they have this conversation and the man says what is the intention of your work and uh and bill murray says oh i don't get it i don't i don't get it egon or whatever and the man says you know for me washing dishes is a religious experience and i've thought about that a lot every time i wash the dishes and i do it quite a bit because i i believe in it and every time i do it I I try to imagine that it's a religious experience and I'd say it's never happened for me I never I feel I feel like I am really spiritually unenlightened every time I wash the dishes and I and I don't see the face of God but or the or open my inner eye to the true nature of reality but in any case I still aspire to it. And of course, it's a profoundly miscast little dialogue that David Reese and I had, because there is no way in the world that I could begin to educate David Reese on the idea of work having intention.

so glad to have as the guest bailiff today is my longtime friend but also uh he's the guy washing dishes in the river as far as i'm concerned everything he does is utterly uh with intention and purpose whether it is artisanal pencil sharpening whether it is uh making clip art cartoons for rolling stone and now uh beginning the second season of his incredible how-to show uh going deep with david reese uh airing Wednesday nights on the Esquire network. Everything is done with deep spiritual intention and absolutely no interest in making money. Wouldn't you say that's true, David? Sadly, yes. But can I say one thing?

Yeah. I'm so happy that you chose this cultural reference because when Esquire was talking about promoting each of the new episodes, one of which is How to Do the D that you put in to serve my pencil sharpening business, you are left with the original words, which serve my interests as a man who made a TV show on how to do the dishes. So I got you coming and going. I know. I know. And you know, the truth is, in life, David Reese is my guru, because David is the one who warned me some years ago, and it still haunts me, that making a cultural reference is not the same thing as making culture.

But I think I did a pretty good job, David, don't you think? Totally. In this instance, making your cultural reference was 20 times better than making culture because they're about me. And still, making a cultural reference is not the same thing as making culture, but it's still better than making a podcast, which is something that we do have to do. Fran and Ben, thanks for sticking with us. I'm afraid we're out of time.

Let's just say one of you is right and one of you is wrong. Fran, you bring the case against your husband, Ben, because there is a dispute in your house over who between the two of you or a yet to be named third party should do the dishes and the other house cleaning? Is that not so? Well, the dishes we pretty much have. That is a spiritual experience for us. So we're good on that. But no, the dishes are fine. And the day to day cleaning is OK.

It's more of like the deep cleaning stuff, the dusting light fixtures and scrubbing toilets and all that stuff. You want to hire a housekeeper to come in and do those things. I would like to hire a cleaning service to come in once a month to do those things. Once a month to do those things. And part of the reason is you have this new baby. We have this new baby. And how old is this baby he's five months old this dirty baby that is messing up your house

five months old and it is a he baby it is a he baby yes little thomas you could keep it you could keep it uh confidential if you wished but that's a lovely that's a lovely and traditional name uh and uh and i would recommend still that you change it to mom like w somerset mom think it over okay okay i think he'll enjoy that now ben you say no thank you why is this unreasonable thing for fran to ask well we've always been kind of do it yourself people. And, you know, we have, you know, maintained our own house and have done a pretty good job over the last, uh, decade of, uh, living together, you know, of taking care of all that sort of thing. And, you know, part of it is, uh, I'm a big cheapskate and I don't want another bill, Part of it is I'm a big cheapskate and I don't want another bill, even if it's small.

Because, you know, we have this new little person that lives with us and steals all of our money and keeps us up at night. And he's taking a lot of our money. So even a small bill, if it's something that I can do myself, that Fran and I can take care of, that Fran and I can take care of. I don't really want to outsource that or pay another person to do it when I'm perfectly fine. Can you do it yourself? I mean, how many times... Who scrubs the toilets currently? Oh.

Well, to be honest, Fran does usually get the bathrooms more often than me, but I think that she would probably agree with me that we have of like about as equitable of a split and a sharing, uh, as you can get. I feel like we both do housework. I clean dishes.

I cook. I vacuum. I clean the blinds. I admire, I admire that you do that, but I'm just curious. A modern man. Yeah. I understand Ben. No one, but I'm just curious. A modern man. Yeah, I understand, Ben.

No one, you're a modern dude who enjoys a joke. I get it. I'm just saying, you know, these specific tasks that Fran is asking be outsourced to another human so that she can, I don't know, take care of this newborn baby. Devote a little bit more time to taking care of this baby and recovering. Not to suggest that you're not taking care either, but I mean, I presume you're also breastfeeding, Ben? Oh, I get up twice a night nursing myself. Yes, I do that.

Harrison myself. Yes, I do that. In any case, the specific tasks that Fran wants a housekeeper to take care of are, I heard, cleaning the toilets, a once monthly comprehensive dusting. Is that right, Fran? What else? Okay, so there's some things on your kitchen that you don't notice. They get grungy until they get grungy, like the bottom of your microwave or the top of your refrigerator, the microwave itself, the windows, the blinds. Forget the windows. No one's going to do that for you. You can't hire someone. No one's ever going to wash the windows. That's a Ben job all over it. But let's just say dusting, right?

Dusting, bathrooms um what else toilet scrubbing full uh full wipe down grout clean tile everything well yeah i mean it doesn't have to be spotless but somebody to come in and just give everything a good once. So I think when you're talking about cleaning a bathroom, spotless is kind of a criterion. You don't want to leave spots. That's the whole point of the cleaning of the bathroom is to get rid of spots. But I hear you. Right. So, so that, so that's what I'm, this is, these are the tasks that someone has to do, Ben.

And are they not getting done now, currently, Fran? They're not getting done up to my standard. They're getting done when we can get to them. Right. It's a pretty common thing for me to come into a weekend saying I want to do, you know, the kitchen and the bathrooms and the floors. And then by the end of the weekend, the kitchen's done. So it's like right now. And you would be the one.

This is all part of, I mean, given that there is chore sharing, these chores are all part of your portfolio. For the most part. So before I got pregnant with Thomas, we were really very 50-50. And we also have a yard with, you know, it's not huge, but it's decent size and it has shrubs. And so... And a garden. And a garden and a dock. We were on a pond and Ben did a lot of work on the dock this summer. So before I got pregnant, all of that was kind of split 50-50. I would occasionally mow and he would occasionally wash blinds. But then I got pregnant and I couldn't really work in the yard.

So I feel like it's been more split towards me doing housework and him doing yard work. So not to say like Ben's not doing his share. That's not it at all. I'm just feeling like I can't like, like I can't quite get to all the housework. Yeah. You have a newborn and it's taking over portions of both of your lives. Yeah. The fact that you guys were washing your blinds to begin with. It's like, not only, not only, not only, not only was I coming to the conclusion that this was, you know, that that was only something that would be done by a childless couple, but maybe a childless couple that has a problem.

But that's okay. I like your standards. I like, I am myself a tidy person who appreciates cleanliness. You live on a pond and that pond is in what state or Commonwealth or province of North America? So we live in Lexington, South Carolina, which is the outskirts of Columbia, South Carolina. All right. And how old are you guys? We are 30, 32, right? Yes. And you're about to be 33 in less than a month.

Okay. 32 and 34. I'm 34. 32 and 34. And this is your first child, obviously? Yes, and you're about to be 33 in less than a month. Okay, 32 and 34. I'm 34. 32 and 34, and this is your first child, obviously. Yes. All right, and how big is your house? It sounds like an idyllic little life you have down there. Oh, it is.

It's not, it's a nice size house for us. It's a small house. It's a small house, yeah. It's three bedrooms, two baths, but it's very compact, and we like it. And obviously in something of a rural setting, if you're on a pond. Well, no, actually it's, I mean, it is really close to the country, but it's in a, it's in a subdivision that's kind of built around several ponds and, you know, that's how they market it, you know. Is it a golfing community?

Is that what you were talking about here? Golfing? Golfing. Is it a golfing community? Because I've been on the grounds of some golfing communities is that what you were talking about here golfing community because i've been i've been on the grounds of some golfing communities in south carolina they're pretty you know i i understand how you'd get that impression but it's it's actually a pretty working class middle class you know the kind of place where you'd be able to buy your first home yeah and it's a good thing you're in south carolina too because if you if you lived

in the commonwealth of massachusetts on a pond once you had that baby you'd have to drain that pond they would not let you have a pond out back you'd have to fence it in fill it full of cement or drain it because but in south carolina i think you can do whatever you want pretty much you can live on whatever dangerous murky terrible body of water happens to be behind your house. It is basically like Mad Max. Although Fran's mom did tell us that we need to put a fence in on the pond, but we won't do that. It's Mad Max in the sense that it is lawless. Is that what you mean?

Yeah. Because Mad Max is not known for being full of ponds. But I got you now. That's cool. No, I got it. Yeah. It's like you're in a lawless quasi-libertarian land with religion. Oh, yeah.

We don't have an HOA, so that gives you a... Yeah. Oh, man. You guys can just... You know what he's referring to there, David Reese? I believe so. Homeowners Association. They're the ones that tell you that you can't paint your house all black and put a red pentagram on it and say that you're the local Church of Satan. Right.

Black Mass Center. But you guys could do that, and that may be exactly what I order. We could totally do that. But please guys could do that. And that may be exactly what I order. We can totally do that. But please don't order that. Well, let's just see what happens. Now, Ben, you brought up the fact that this is a middle class, working class area and class figures into this, doesn't it? I feel like it does for me. That's on my list of reasons is, you know, feeling a little bit weird about basically, you know, implicitly saying that I don't have the time or, you know, I'm too fancy or important to do these sorts of tasks myself. And so trying to pay someone to do work that I'm not willing to do.

to pay someone to do work that I'm not willing to do. And, you know, I come from humble background and don't necessarily like the idea of paying someone to do that. I mean, it's fine work and it's honest work, but I don't know if I want to pay someone to do that in my house. Do you ever go to a restaurant? We do very rarely, but well, I guess, you know you know every couple weeks we'll go out but um yes i do uh i do have the same qualms about someone someone doing something that you could do yourself such as make a food we have both worked in restaurants as servers and bartenders

as recently as five years ago so so that i mean I feel a kind of a kindred connection when I, when I go to a restaurant. You should feel even worse about it then, because now you're going back there with your fancy life, thumb in your nose at your old comrades going, now you serve me. I made it. That's only when we go back to the restaurants that we used to work at and then try to show off how fancy we are now. How fancy are you? Do you have, are you both employed?

We are. Yes, we both have full-time jobs. What are your jobs, if I may ask? Well, we both work in IT. Ben works with databases and I work at a public media company. And do you go into offices, Ben? Yes, I do. I have a, I have my own office. I, I work for a large hospital and I work in their legal department with several fancy lawyers and yeah, it's, yeah. Those fancy lawyers. You hate fancy people.

Yes. So, yeah, no, I mean, we both have, you know, we're both very fortunate to have good jobs, you know, 40 plus hours a week. Pretty normal. Pretty standard. Yeah, pretty normal. And did you never had a housekeeper when you were growing up, someone who came in from time to time? No. In fact, you know, there were periods in my life when my own mom cleaned other people's houses at certain times. So if you count her, then yes, she cleaned our house when I was a kid. But I don't I don't recall ever. I don't think we ever had anyone come in and clean our house. Is your mom still living?

She is. She's doing well. So, Fran, why don't you why don't you just hire Ben's mom to come in and humiliate her by making her clean her own son's home while you just sit there with your fancy feet up? Eating fancy food, eating your fancy foods and with the little Lord Thomas propped on your tummy and just and just say, hurry it up, mom in law. How do you feel about Ben's reaction to this? This issue of I don't I don't want to I don't want to be the kind of person who hires my mom. Well, to back it up for just a second. So when I was, um, we, Ben's parents also live in Columbia

and they're wonderful and they have helped us out so much with Thomas. And one of the things that Ben's mom did for us while I was out on maternity leave was she cleaned our kitchen. And I always thought that we were adequate cleaners, that we were pretty good cleaners until my mother-in-law cleaned our kitchen. And then I realized that we don't, we're not very good cleaners. Like our kitchen was clean for the first time ever after she cleaned it. So it made me realize that she has a skill that I'm just not sure I possess. And I don't have any problems having people come in to clean our home. I mean, it's like Ben was saying, we both used to work in the restaurant industry, and I don't see anything wrong with going out to eat.

I think that— No, no one does. I was just trying to— I mean, but it's— Obviously, no one does. But it's—I mean, it's fine to work in the restaurant industry. It's fine to clean homes. Like everybody's different.

Everybody likes different jobs. Maybe that makes somebody really happy. And we're helping them do that. Fran, if I may play devil's advocate for a moment here. So you learned that you guys aren't as clean as you thought you were, which is pretty common when people hit their late 20s or early 30s. And they realize, oh, I've been a slob my whole life. I gotta do better than this. And yet, that doesn't mean that you could not acquire those skills. And it doesn't mean that

you couldn't learn from Ben's mom, how to be as good as Ben's mom is at cleaning the house, as she clearly was when Ben was growing up and thus become closer and closer to Ben's mom is at cleaning the house, as she clearly was when Ben was growing up and thus become closer and closer to Ben's mom and become Ben's mom, which is probably why he married you in the first place. You started out strong. I'm not saying that because of Ben. I'm not saying that because of Ben. I'm saying that because all dudes do that. All dudes marry their moms or try to at least once. I think you kind of answered your own question why I don't want to do that. No, I'd love to spend more time with Mary Johnson and there's always room for improvement. But I just I don't think that there's time in the schedule to commit to like cleaning school on the weekends right now.

Your Honor, if I may, one of your previous remarks hit. Thank you. One of your previous remarks hit incredibly close to home because my mother's name is Mary Johnson and Fran's name is actually Mary Johnson. So she is morphing into my own mom. I thought her name was Fran when I married her, but it turned out it was Mary Frances. And so, yeah, there's a whole nother. They don't look alike much, though. You inadvertently married a woman.

Just to clarify, for the few people listening to this podcast who have not swerved off the road in amazement and died. have not swerved off the road in amazement and died. What Ben is saying is that he inadvertently married a woman who has the same name as his own mother. His wife is a cultural reference about his own mother. So Ben, let me ask you this if if i were to order you to hire a house cleaner um would this would you feel ashamed to reveal this information to your own mom and dad um no no it wouldn't be that rude all right now fran or if I may say, Ben's mom, Fran. I think that's your full name, right?

Mama Fran. You've done some research. Do you have, you were, you were interested in hiring a specific person or a house cleaning service? There's a service close to us that I'm interested in and I've contacted them for a quote, but this was recently and I didn't hear back. I know that would be valuable information. Just not to help Fran's case, but our sister-in-law who is in a different city quoted their service that I think for their once a month was like 80 or a hundred dollars for two hours of

cleaning or something like that. So that's kind of the ballpark. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think, you know, so it's not a huge bill or a large amount of money. Well, you've just acknowledged that it is affordable to you. I mean, if you wanted to do it, if you chose that, that's what you wanted. In all honesty, your honor, I'm not sure what's affordable for me right now. The past year, our money kept growing and growing, but in the past five months, it's, um, I'm not sure what's affordable for me right now. The past year, our money kept growing and growing. But in the past five months, I'm not sure if it's shrinking or staying the same or going up. There's this little house guest that's stealing all my stuff and all my money. But I think in the big picture, I think it is, I hate to admit it, but it probably would be affordable to us.

Babies are expensive. What's the biggest expense of your baby? Day yeah drugs for sure what what was that i was talking medicine for the baby i guess is what i was saying uh so okay so you have you have child care uh what's your child care situation uh well because you're full-time employees. Right. It's a daycare that's based out of a church downtown. And they're really excellent. Off-site childcare is what you got.

Yes. And at five months, what's Thomas's review? Positive, negative? I had a conference yesterday with the teacher. He's doing very well. He's the only, well,'t shouldn't brag on the air but he's the only baby in the baby room that scored on the upper end of all his little milestones so he can he can open those hands what kind of baby olympics do they have them doing uh you know things like making eye contact and reacting to voices and opening his fists to pick up things and how well he can hold his own bottle and things like that. I actually still have trouble with all of those.

Well, good for him. And you like that daycare, but it's expensive. We do. It is. We like it and it is expensive. Yes. Yeah. The costs associated with having a child are many and varied and surprising, even if you

feel like you're prepared for them. And I remember when we had our first child, you know, we ended up getting in, you know, a nanny, you know, a part-time caretaker, Cheryl, who came and took care of the baby for a few hours a day usually while i was there so that i could work you know because i worked from home um and we we paid her every week and it was i had the hardest time wrapping my head around it because i was like we could buy a dv DVD player every week. You were paying her $35 a week? This is in 2002.

Okay. We had just, we had bought our first DVD player. I bought my first DVD player about two or three years before. And so I thought, I thought DVD players still cost hundreds of dollars. And I remember going through the mental agony of whether I could afford a DVD player. And now I was essentially buying one every week. And you just like, this is what has to happen. You have to do it or else this baby will not be cared for.

Someone has to quit the job. And then who quits a job? Who's making more money? Who's making less money? You know, in that case, my wife was and still is a teacher and I was a freelance writer. And it was pretty neck and neck all the way to the bottom in terms of who was earning less. But that it's I completely sympathize and adding another at another cost is is is a concern. Let me ask you this, Ben.

I I hear all your arguments but you know what your wife has on this list cleaning the undercarriage of the microwave cleaning out the fridge thorough dusting cleaning out the toilets and getting back to a regular regime of washing the blinds finally. I guess the question is, if I'm going to find in your favor and deny your wife and you the help that she is seeking, how is that stuff going to get done? What's your proposal? Well, you know, as it stands right now, we're not able to do those things during the week. But we've kind of settled into a pattern of Saturday, we kind of get up early and start, we'll do a couple hours of cleaning, you know, not really the deep cleaning,

but you know, we'll, you know, do the dishes, laundry, vacuum, you know, maybe do the bathrooms. And after about two hours of both of us doing know, maybe do the bathrooms. And after about two hours of both of us doing it, our house looks great. It's a small house. Um, you know, maybe that deeper, I can't say that I'm scrubbing the bottom of the microwave or anything, but, um, you know, two hours on a Saturday between the two of us and the house is, is pretty much, um, looking. So your answer, so your answer, answer when i ask you how is that stuff going to get done your answer is it's not going to get done we're doing we're doing good enough as it is and i don't see no one's going to clean the undercarriage of that microwave

because i asked you who's going to clean the microwave and you gave me this whole other story about how you guys spend your sat Saturday mornings happily spending two hours doing a bunch of cleaning. And even though the stuff, the deep cleaning that your wife specifically wants to get done doesn't get done, it still looks good. So why do you think that that's going to be an answer over time that your wife is going to feel good about? I was honestly hoping she would just get distracted by something else and forget about it move on how long have you been married seven years congratulations uh all right i think i've heard everything that i need to hear in order to render my decision i'm going to go into my spotless chambers they're not spotless there is spotless. There is a lot of

potato chip crumbs on the floor, let me tell you. And there's a lot of old beef jerky lying around. But I will go over there and gnaw on some old beef jerky and I'll make up my mind and I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

How do you guys feel? Dirty or clean? I feel pretty clean. I feel kind of like I've got some flop sweat happening. I was at work all day. I don't feel that great about my chances. I think I'm going to lose, probably. Oh, really? Well... Let me ask you a question. If he comes back out here, the judge, and says that you have to hire someone to clean your home, Ben, secretly, won't you be a little bit happy because you'll be forced to do it and you won't have to take the... Morally, you're off the hook. You'll be like, oh, believe me, I would never do this. But the judge made me do it. So now I get a clean house.

And then you can go through yourself like that. do it. So now I get a clean house. And then you go to yourself like that. I think it will take some of the guilt out of it. If he orders me to hire a cleaning service, then I will, of course, respect his decision. And I will not feel guilty as I then go spend the money I don't have on beer that I want. Right, exactly. Okay. I hope he forces me to get one too, because I've always wanted one, and I've always felt really guilty about it. Even though my parents, who are the most decent people who've ever lived, have had house cleaners for years and years, who I had actually, and they had very close and fond relationships with, because these were relationships that lasted for decades. I think if you pay them decently and treat their work with respect, you know, then that's

a perfectly fine thing to have in your house. Oh, sure. Absolutely. I have, you know, absolute respect for the work. And I mean, it's honest, good work. And, you know, I'm sure we could have a good relationship with whatever person or people potentially clean our house. And since I actually have this thing where I love doing other people's dishes,

I secretly hope that the judge will force you to hire a house cleaner and the house cleaner is me. Would you like to come visit? We have a lot of dishes these days, David. Mostly bottles and... Bottles, pumping. I'm good at washing dishes now, actually. I find it very satisfying. And I grew up in North Carolina, so I'm sure that the cultural acclimation wouldn't be too traumatic for me.

You would fit in. Yeah. Come stay with us. Can you bring some pencils with you? I'm going to be your new baby. Okay, guys. Well, we'll be back in just a moment with Judge Hodgman's decision. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh, boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound.

Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world and you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyper-academic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special

limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners, at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L, dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really?

What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're Made In, Made In. The Rohan duck, Made In, Made ribs. They're made in, made in. The Rohan duck. Made in, made in. Riders of Rohan. Duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop?

You got it. Made in, made in. Made in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame.

One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town?

Just buy it online. This is professional-grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

You may be seated. Ben, you make a reasonable argument. It's not something I say to a lot of aspiring weird dads. Because the truth is that it is a transition in one's life to hire another human being to do things that you have been doing competently or with the delusion of competency for a long time. And, you know, but you are in a transitional part of your life. You know, it is not uncommon for people to have children and then suddenly realize that A, they're kind of terrible slobs and B, they don't have the time or energy to really learn how to clean their apartment properly and C, all their money is going away. And from a financial point of view and particularly from a class point of view, I feel you.

There are two different transitions that Fran is asking you to make. One is to start seeing yourself as the kind of person who hires someone to clean their house, which is troubling to you from a sort of class identity point of view because that's not how you grew up. And indeed, your mom was the person who was hired to do that for other people, presumably who are more well off than you were. And two, an even simpler transition, she's asking you to become an adult, the kind of person who isn't just employed, but is now employing other people and delegating the homemaking that was your pleasure as a young couple without children for seven years now becomes your pain and your chore.

Because that's the thing, like when you move in together and you don't have a child and you guys are basically just two, you two two two children yourselves playing house washing up and cleaning up and washing those blinds and building that dock that's all beautiful uh soul work that you guys are doing together and it's fun and then once you have that child and that child becomes not just a a money suck which i hope is not how you always see your child, Ben, but indeed an emotional and an emotion drain and an energy drain. No matter how much you love your child, you are spending a lot of time and energy and brain work making sure a child stays alive in your household and even beyond that, if possible, is happy. And suddenly all those other things, those things that you would do together as a young

childless couple become pure time work, pure consuming chores. And it doesn't help when your mother or mother-in-law comes in and really cleans your house for the first time and you realize how terrible you've been your whole life. That's something that I definitely went through with my mom when she was alive. Those are hard transitions to make and so hard that you would even deny your wife reasonable aid around the house in order to prevent yourself from making these transitions, these difficult transitions in life that I promise you are inevitable. What's inevitable is that your wife has identified areas of the house that are not clean to her satisfaction. And if you were to say to me, I understand that these things are not clean to her satisfaction,

that she's not getting the work done and she's overtaxed but I don't want to hire someone to do it. I'm going to do it myself. Then I would say, oh boy, oh boy, you're stepping up. Okay, give it a try. You'll change your mind pretty quick. But that's not what you said. Basically what you said was

when I said who's going to clean the underside of the microwave you, we have a wonderful ritual of getting up for two hours on Saturday and we make the house look pretty good. And I think that's good enough. Well, first of all, it's not good enough. It'll never be good enough because your wife has changed her mind now that your mom came in. So you have only yourself. And second, and second of all, you guys deserve to enjoy one Saturday a month to not clean your whole house. um to clean your house whether it's once a month or once a week or to have a live-in person or whatever it is uh isn't fraught with complication uh interpersonal complication and and you know class issues and it's more likely than not going to be someone uh who who isn't white and so there there are race issues as well and sensitivities that have to be negotiated. And there is real true honor in getting into the river and washing the dishes yourself. It can be a religious experience.

But I agree with what I heard David say through the doorway. And I live it myself or try to. You know, when we had children, we needed help. and we got childcare, obviously, as you did as well. And then pretty quickly we realized we can't stay on top of the housework and we need some help. And we could, and we really couldn't afford it, but we found a way to afford it because we, we just had too much, too much to do, two very consuming jobs and the very consuming and happy job of making sure the child takes a nap and is cared for and is and is happy and so forth and uh and the the trick of course is to hiring someone is that you have to be the best employer in the world whether you hire someone directly or you go through a service,

and I think there are merits to both, and I think especially with a service, if you feel you only need someone to come in once a month, a service is great because the individual who is coming to your house isn't relying on you as a major source of their income. So you can enjoy the benefits of their service. That person might be swapped out with another person as the service needs to move their personnel around. It's very much a transaction. They don't become a very personal part of your life. It's not like having Alice living in the

Brady Bunch house and then becomes a part of the family, which can be a wonderful experience, but has its own complications. And it would provide you with, I think, the level of affordable service that would really take a load off your plates at least one Saturday a month when you wouldn't have to do what you always do. And if you were to do it, then your one job in order to get past your class issues and worries is to do what you would normally do. You have to express, you have to respect the work that's done. You have to respect the person as a human. You have to give them a bonus at the end of the year for the holidays, equivalent to one week's pay at least. And you've got to know when their birthday is

and say happy birthday and ask after their family and be nice and be a human. And then all the issues, I think, tend to be neutralized and it becomes what it is. Someone who wants to do this work, and they do. They want to make money at this because they need money, and they may have these skills, will come into your house and perform a service for money, just as you used to make food and drink for people who were too fancy and lazy to do it

themselves. And you will both then make a transition into adulthood. So it sounds as though I am going to order you to get a cleaning person, but I'm not going to. And the reason for this is that through my chamber door, I heard David articulate something that I had only just begun to form in my mind as an idea when I left the courtroom, and that's that you are tricking this court, Ben. You are tricking this court into ordering you to do something that you don't want to admit would be okay.

You are manipulating this court into ordering you into getting a housekeeper so your hands are clean, in all senses of the word. in all senses of the word. And I think that's pretty fancy of you. Like some fancy Lord from the South? Yeah, I think that's some pretty fancy, fancy trick. Some fancy lawyer stuff that you're doing on me.

You're trying to, it's like, as David said, you're trying to get me to say, I couldn't help it. I had to hire this person. A fake internet judge told me to, and I don't, and I think in life we have to own our decisions. And I think that we should make them as much as possible with as much knowledge as possible. And so I don't order you to get someone i order you to clean i order you i order you ben and fran but ben i'm you you know you're you're getting the brunt of this for me right now i order you to bring your mom around and have her show you how to clean your house. And I order you to both equitably share the additional duties that your mom feels needs be done

to be a house of the quality that she saw fit to raise you in, Ben. So that's clean and under the microwave. That's dusting and doing the toilets. That's doing all the things that Fran laid out and whatever else real mama Fran says needs to be done. And I want you to add those chores to your Saturday mornings and I want you to do them. And I want you to do them whether, you know, I want you to do them. And I want you to do them whether, you know, I want you to do them diligently.

And after, how old is Thomas now? Five months. Right. After another five months, then I want to hear, Ben, how you feel about hiring someone to do that stuff for you for $100 a month. I want you to take that five hundred dollars you saved and i want you guys to go to get to get real mama fran to look after thomas and go away for a night at a really nice hotel

and have a real heart to heart over whether or not you want to continue to clean under the microwave or maybe it wouldn't just be better to spend $100 a month to pay someone in a professional capacity to do that for you. Do you understand my ruling? We do. We do, yes. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Fran, how do you feel about the judge's decision? I like it. I like it. I think the next five months are going to be real interesting. And Ben, how are you feeling? I'm surprised. He had me going. I really thought that he was just going to order us to hire the service. That would have been nice. Yeah. You know, you guys might be on to me, but honestly, I wasn't even on to that either. You might have helped me realize something about myself that I wasn't consciously admitting to. Totally. Well, that stuff runs very deep. And it actually, between the three of us,

that informs like 80% of my interactions with the judge. He's always taking me to these fancy hotels and restaurants under my meek protestations like, oh, I would never go here on my own, but the judge is making me go to this super nice hotel. You know, I'm too punk rock to eat Parmesan fries at the fanciest hotel in LA. If only we could sleep under this culvert. So I'm onto you, son. I know the way the game is played because I basically invented the game. No, you're right. I think part of me would have been relieved with just hiring the service, but now we get to go the hard road and really up that to four hours each of cleaning on Saturday mornings for the next five months. You don't even know if it's four hours. You have to have your mom come in and walk you through it. Wow, but she is literally like a Jedi Knight of cleaning.

So we'll learn from her. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know what? I'd like to be there, too, if I could get down to South Carolina. I'd love to hear what her checklist is. It's going to be intense. In fact, here's what I want. I want you to write up her checklist.

Oh, yeah. And I want to share it with the listening audience. Yes. I want you to send up her checklist. Oh, yeah. And I want to share it with the listening audience. Yes. I want you to send it in. Okay. And I want details, you guys. Just record it. And then I was going to say hire someone to transcribe it,

but you're too fancy for that. I mean, you're too punk rock for that. I want details of what she wants done and how she wants you to do it. And you can buzz market specific products because sometimes you have to. Fran and Ben, thank you both for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. All right. You're very welcome. Yes.

Thank you for having us. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Ah, it'll never fit. No, it will will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-p-d-c-o-o oh we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximumfun.org if you need a laugh and you're on the go. That was fun, Judge. Yeah. Welcome to my chambers. I am now very self-conscious about my dust covered Venetian blinds. You can write your name in them if you wish.

That's what I should have. People who come and visit should write their initials into the dust on my Venetian blinds. come and visit should write their initials into the dust on my venetian blinds uh david uh what a pleasure to have you uh here on the show on on what is the the premiere of your television program season two of going deep with david reese on the esquire channel network thank you so much for having me it's really really fun let me ask you a question dav David. Yes. If people want to check out your show, what do they need to do? Oh, boy. They have to find the Esquire network. How do they do that?

On their local cable provider. They can go to Esquire's website, which should have a list of, given where they live, how to find it. Yeah, just Google Going Deep with David Reese. Google Going Deep with David Reese. And you will get sent to tv.esquire.com slash going deep David Reese. R-E-E-S. And then there's a channel finder. And then here's what I suggest you guys do. Set your DVR right now for 10 p.m. on your Esquire network on your local cable provider.

And watch it at 10 p.m. And talk about it on social local cable provider and watch it at 10 PM and talk about it on social media and then watch it again. One to seven days after, why do I suggest you do this? I think you're going to like it. I think you'll be a happier person. If you watch this program, it's really a lot of fun.

Um, and, and, and David is fantastic on it. And the fact is that, uh, if you don't like it, you've, you've lost.

What is it without commercials, David? 20 minutes? Something like that. 22 minutes, maybe. Right. You've lost 22 minutes. But if you do like it, you'll not only have the pleasure of having seen it, but having seen it in a way that helps it survive. Because if you just look at this thing on youtube two years from now after it's been

canceled let me tell you from experience with bored to death it doesn't help please whether it is going deep or anything else and i hope it's going deep vote with your eyeballs and watch and buy content in the ways that they ask you to watch and buy because it helps them to make money and survive. And in this case, you may not be contributing to a Nielsen poll, but if you DVR something and you watch it within the first seven days, I bet you that information gets somewhere. Oh, it totally does. Right? Exactly. Yeah. Thank you, John. I really appreciate that.

Well, look, I appreciate the show an awful lot. And it's not just because I got to be on the how to take a nap episode, but which is probably, you know, one of how many episodes are there? Eight new episodes. It's probably one of the eight best of the second season. Oh, totally. Without question. I hope the listeners of Judge John Hodgman agree that you can like whatever you like. Obviously, you're under no obligation to to support something. But if you feel strongly enough that you want to, the way to do it is to not talk about it to your friends. It is not to to up thumb a thing on Facebook one time. It's to actually purchase the content if it's for sale or engage with it in the way that it asks you to engage with it. Because if they're asking you, that's probably the way they need people to engage with it in order to survive. So that's just a thought to the Internet generation.

David, who produced and edited this episode? Julia Smith produces the show. Mark McConville is our editor. Hooray. Thanks, guys. And who named this episode? Thanks to Allison McDonough for suggesting this week's case name. To suggest a name for a future case, like us on Facebook. The show regularly puts out a call for submissions. If you have a dispute for the judge, write up the details and submit it at www.maximumfund.org slash JJHO. And thanks to Josh Feinstein at Angry Lamb Studios for engineering this week. dot maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

And thanks to Josh Feinstein at Angry Lamb Studios for engineering this week. I've been your guest bailiff, David Reese. Thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximumfund.org Comedy and culture.

Artist owned. Listener supported.