Judge John Hodgman - Gross Misconduct

Episode Date: August 15, 2014

A woman takes her mother to court over fingernail clipping in public.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, gross misconduct. Molly brings the case against her mom, Susan. Molly says that Susan has a habit of clipping her fingernails at inappropriate times. Susan says she follows proper etiquette and tries to be discreet. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Mysterious whisper. Mysterious whisper. Mysterious whisper. Mysterious whisper. Mysterious whisper. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, welcome back. Now swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, or whatever? I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his fingernails are self-clipping? I do. Probably, or I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman. Molly and Susan, you may be seated. For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can you name the piece of culture I referenced as I entered the courtroom? Referenced? Sang? Beautifully, I dare say. Molly? I didn't want it to stop, but I also didn't know what it was.

It did stop. I sang the entire thing. That is the entire song. I cannot name that reference. Susan, can you name the song, the entire song that I sang? No, I can't even. I grew up with Motown, and I can't even name those songs. Hey, Bailiff Jesse Thorne. Yes? Though I am still in the state of Maine, formerly part of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. You are in Los Angeles, and it's great to have you back.

On your very popular and accomplished interview show, Bullseye, have you ever interviewed the band They Might Be Giants? I have interviewed the band They Might Be Giants. John Flansburg and John Linnell. That's right. Those are the two they might be giants now do you can you name the song that i just sang oh so that last question was a setup for this question all of my questions are setups the only questions that i may not ask for years. The only They Might Be Giants song that I'm comfortable naming is Robot Parade.

Wrong. All guesses are wrong. You guys, the song, I suppose, is called Mysterious Whisper because those are the only lyrics in it. It is only one of 21 short songs, which together make up the suite of songs called Fingertips by They Might Be Giants, which was interspersed throughout their 1992 album, Apollo 18. Apollo 18, the Giants said, was designed to be listened on shuffle so that bits and bobs of fingertips would come up as you listened randomly. Bits and bobs of fingertips is a disgusting thing to say. But I chose to reference that song because there are not a lot of cultural references involving fingernails. So in many ways, Molly and Susan, we are clipping new territory. Cool.

Molly, you are the daughter, is that correct? That is correct. And Susan, you're the mother? Yes. All right. Molly, what is the nature of your complaint against your poor mom? Okay. So this, the more recent conversation arose the last time that my mom was visiting me in New York because she was clipping her fingernails at my kitchen counter, which is not actually a strange behavior for her. thinks it's acceptable to clip your finger or toenails anywhere as long as you gather the clippings in a little pile

and then sweep them into your hand and then put them in a waste receptacle. I see. May I say this just as a quick response? Gross. Exactly. I have to interrupt just for one moment here, because that term, gross, has been credited to me. And I took that credit, because I find it fun to say, and I've said it before. It was only recently that I realized that I was cribbing an aside made several times by the great actor Mark Evan Jackson in the Thrilling Adventure Hour podcast and stage show in the personage of Sparks Nevada, Marshal of Mars. So I apologize, Mark Evan Jackson,

everyone go subscribe to Thrilling Adventure Hour and come see us in New York on October 11th. There's that. Then also, I forgot to mention, I am in Maine still, and specifically at WERU, sitting across the board from Joel here at WERU, which is having its pledge drive, which might be over by the time you hear this, but why don't you go to WERU.org and check out this fine radio station and give them some money. I'm going to do so today, Joel. Don't let me leave until I give you money. Now, Molly, Susan, we've heard, Susan, that you're clipping your fingernails all over the place. Before I give you a chance to respond, madam, Molly, may I presume you want me to prohibit your mother from ever clipping her nails

so that they become three to nine feet long, Ripley's Believe It or Not style? Well, so I would love for her just to admit that the incident that I'd like to describe to you is way over the line and is disgusting. And then further, if you think that there is some appropriate punishment, I would love for some punishment to be doled out. You need to tell me what the damages are that you want. I'm tired of doing all this work for you guys. Never being allowed to clip her nails again would be great maybe but she's allowed to bite her nails just you don't even want her to clip her nails again in life um you want her you want to push her towards biting her nails do i get to rest rest my case now? How about she's allowed to clip her toenails? She's only allowed to clip her toenails

if she's also digging in her nose for a giant booger. How about that? You don't want her to clip her nails at all? But I haven't even described to you. So the kitchen counter was actually just the impetus for our conversation about what happened a few years ago, which is what I'm actually bringing her to court for. Paint the picture. Susan, you're going to get your chance to respond.

I sure hope so. I can tell you're sharpening your clippers right now. Absolutely. Just keep them sharp. Keep them sharp, mama. I think they always are. And if they're not, her backup pair is. So what happened that caused you to have a conversation, a family conversation about your mother's nail clipping habits? So a few years ago, my mom was visiting me in New York. And she was actually staying a few blocks away from me at a hotel.

And we went out to dinner one night. Where did you go? We went to a place called Sidecar, which I think is actually in the neighborhood where you made. Yes. I will allow buzz marketing of Sidecar. I knew that that's where you went. Okay.

Because you wrote it to me. Yes. But I was pretending like we're just having a convo. Great. Okay. And I will allow, even though I am in Maine, I'm thinking of home. Yes. So we're just having a convo. Great. Okay. And I will allow, even though I am in Maine, I'm thinking of home. Yes.

So we're hanging out. It turns into autumn on August 10th here in Maine and it's freezing and I want to go home. But Sidecar is a terrific restaurant. What did you have for dinner? Do you remember, Molly? I mean, it's like my memory of dinner was erased by this horrific event. And what did your mom do? What is it that your mom did?

So, and this follows a few other nail clipping, at least one toenail clipping incident. I don't want to hear about that. I want to hear about what happened in Sidecar. Okay, so we're at Sidecar. We've already established that your mom is a serial clipper. Yes, clearly. No, no, no, no. Madam, I will have order in my court.

Sorry. I know you get your way at the restaurant and at your daughter's house. I wish. But this is my house. Okay. So we're at Sidecar, and I was looking down probably at the menu, and I'm not sure if the waitress was standing next to me that's my memory but I could be wrong about that that was two years ago and I heard that

like tink tink sound that you hear when you're clipping your fingernails and I looked up completely aghast like in disbelief and my mom was clipping her nails in her lap at the dinner table at Sidecar. This actually occurred. And I think I said... Is your, madam, is your personal vanity at a restaurant called Sidecar and you can just pop in and grab your fingernail clippers? I think that some of us are going to dispute what are being presented as quote-unquote facts, but I will await my turn. I could hear your well-trimmed nails forming the quotation marks as you spoke. Of course. By the way, Molly, your vocal imitation of the sound of fingernail clippers was uncanny. Thank you. You're the imitation of the sound of fingernail clippers was uncanny.

Thank you. You're the Michael Winslow of fingernail clippers. Yeah, it's burned into my memory. Tink, tink. Am I causing you post-traumatic stress? I'm okay. It's sort of a telltale heart type situation. All right.

All right, so she clipped her nails at the table. Is this a true fact, Molly, or is it not a true fact? Oh, this is 100% a true fact. And for this reason, you want me to ban her from clipping her fingernails forever? Or just make her admit that that's disgusting and inappropriate. Okay, child, be quiet. Mother. Yes? What did you have for dinner at this fingernail fest?

Yes. What did you have for dinner at this fingernail fest? I don't remember. I was thinking, Molly and I talked yesterday, and I was certain that it occurred last December, which I remember the dinner. But I'm so sure of it. But she said that both she and her husband say that, no, no, no, it was a long time ago. I think they're just trying to gaslight a poor old lady who doesn't remember things very well. Yeah, no kidding. Which one of you had the fried chicken, for heaven's sake? I probably did. The dinner I thought it happened at was pizza. Does Sidecar have pizza no no oh

oh okay okay well and susan and susan just be quiet for a second because i'm trying to get a free dinner at sidecar when i get back to brooklyn best fried chicken in new york period the kale salad with the bacon is good. But last time I was there, they didn't cook the bacon enough, which was a little, to quote Mark Evan Jackson, gross. But that was a very, that was a weird thing. Otherwise, Sidecar is good. And you shouldn't clip your fingernails into your food or into your lap. Susan, what was going on? Why did you do this? Okay, since I'm wrong about when it occurred, and it occurred so long ago, and because I'm having to operate with a geriatric memory, all I can come from is a position of that I was reared by a Southern mother who cited Emily Post fairly routinely to me and my brother. And I, okay, I start out by saying,

absolutely, of course, it is not good etiquette, generally, to clip one's nails in a restaurant, or generally in public, actually. And there is zero question in my mind that what happened, which doesn't happen routinely, but I think most people can relate to this and have done it at one time or another, is then I had a hangnail. I realized as we were sitting at the table, I'm sure, that I had a hangnail that was, I was starting to, it was starting to tear into the quick of my nail. And knowing me, which again, I think most people can relate to, I would have been picking at it Emily Post etiquette, I'm keenly aware that context matters. I was with family. And, yes, the other public was there. Would I even?

Were you related to everyone in the restaurant, madam? No, no. But, but, and I was going to point out, actually, in that setting, it's not as if I intended for Molly to see it. And I have to believe that Molly's memory, her 32-year-old memory or whatever it is, is failing her. Because there's no question in my mind she did not hear clip, clip, clip, because it would have been one nail only. No, I didn't hear clip, clip. I heard tink, tink. How many tink, tinks did you hear, Molly?

I don't think that I could say with 100% certainty how many tink, tinks there were. At least two. But no one is disputing that some clipping happened. No. At least one clip. Correct. And I will argue that undoubtedly it was below the table and that Molly was sitting in a position at the table

that she saw me, even though I would have intended that she even not see me. So definitely, unless she has testimony, sworn affidavits from the public at large that happened to be in that restaurant, then I am relatively certain that no one else heard or saw it and that it was at most it would be only one nail. I would have been doing it lower than the tabletop with in mind the the public at large that was there. So you see, Molly, Molly, you see no one. No one could have seen or heard it. I believe that that might be true. I always bring my victims to the dark woods before I murder them.

Because if it's not seen and not heard, it isn't it isn't a crime, according to Emily Post. Yeah. Yeah, and may I respond or should I wait? Let me ask you a question, Molly. Okay. Did you call your mother out in the moment? Did you say something at that moment? Yes.

All that I said was we made eye contact. I looked, I'm sure, just completely horrified. And I said, Mom. And she gave me, this is actually kind of what happens in these situations. If she says something or gives me a look that indicates like, oh, quippy and so uptight. And she kind of like rolled her eyes and put her fingernail clippers away. This is Brooklyn. This is what we do here. Everybody's wearing beards and their underwear to dinner in a hat. Clip my nails. My mother taught me never to wear a beard or underwear to restaurants,

especially in Brooklyn. I think that that is, in Emily Post, I think you're absolutely right. I know. Did it occur to you, Susan, that you might have excused yourself to go to the special room that some restaurants provide where bodily functions can be attended to? No. where bodily functions can be attended to? No, and part of that reason is that, you know, etiquette has to do with social mores and norms.

And since the days that I went back when I was being tutored in Emily Post, women wore, in the South, they wore gloves to the doctor's office. And I would argue, and I suspect that the three of us could agree, that social mores have really run amok in our country. And I don't even think that's okay. But certainly, I think that even if I messed up and somebody did see me, and I didn't intend for Molly to see me, but if someone else saw me, including Molly, they could observe. And their perception of my intent, which is even more important than my actual intent, was that I was dealing with a problem with a nail as opposed to simply sitting at a dinner out in public clipping my nails, which, of course, I would never do. All right. Susan.

Yes. Do you currently work or are you retired? I'm retired. And what are you retired from? Oh, lots of things. Congratulations, by the way. Thank you. Teaching French, selling shoes, doing computer programming, writing technical documentation. writing technical documentation. And on the side, my avocation, of course, was reading both Emily Post and Miss Manners. I love it all. I love it all. And I love you.

And if you listen to this podcast, you know, I tend to side with moms and dads. Oh, good. But I have to tear apart all that nonsense you just talk to me oh no no none of that none of that made any sense at all first of first of first of all you're talking about shifting social mores which we can all agree are true i see people bringing wearing hats into restaurants all the time uh grown-ups letting their kids wear hats at a restaurant table. The worst. I see it happening all the time. And I, like you, lament the decline of civilized behavior in a restaurant.

Do I wear my hat in a restaurant because I despise the other people who do? No, I take my hat off because I have control over my own will. I will do the right thing even if people are doing the wrong thing. What protest are you making by clipping your nails if you agree that clipping your nails in a restaurant is gross? I didn't agree. Two, excuse me, madam, I will have order. Yes, sir. Two, you insulted my neighborhood by talking about what a gross place this was, such that you could clip your nails with impunity in this hole, which is no way to win in my courtroom.

Three, you make an illogical argument, you make a fallacy by saying, I did it in a way that no one could see me, but everyone should have seen that I was dealing with a very specific problem, which was a hangnail, which is somehow more acceptable than a normal clipping of nails. And many of those statements are contradictory. Now, if I were you, madam, I would simply say, look, I know what's right. I know what's wrong. I've read Emily Post, and I'm going to tell you that over and over again. In this case, I had something that was hurting me. I had a chance to fix it. I did the wrong thing. It was a fingernail crime of passion.

I'm sorry. Why don't you just acknowledge this and move on with your life rather than bring us through this tortured? Is it so difficult for you to admit that Molly had a point? Is there a sentencing phase to this? Oh, I've not made a verdict. Oh, okay, okay. I did not disagree that what she was saying as a general rule is true. I do agree with that. I don't think I did it with impunity.

I'm old enough to know that one can almost never be 100% certain of something. And therefore, the risk of committing what would be a crime, perhaps, depending on the viewer, has to be considered. And I really thought I was keeping it away from the public. I still say that we have no known testimony of corroborating evidence that Molly heard anything. I might have back then, but it's been so long ago, I don't know, I might have back then thought that it was okay for Molly to see it because I happen to know that, I mean, I see her all the time picking up gradu, as her dad used to call it, off the kitchen floor, putting it in her mouth. She might sniff it first, then she puts it in her mouth without even knowing

what she's eating. It's like stimulus response. It's reflex behavior. So your response, just so I understand, you know what you did was wrong, but your daughter is a liar who eats garbage. know what you did was wrong, but your daughter is a liar who eats garbage. I would say that's a loose summary. I mean, on the plus side, Judge Hodgman, she may be a liar who eats garbage, but she does wear gloves to the doctor's office. That was my mother who wore gloves to the doctor's office. I went to Cal Berkeley in the 60s.

I'm a, look, first of all, you office. I went to Calvert in the 60s. Susan, I'm amazed. Look, first of all, you must understand that I have great affection for you and appreciation for you. I'm amazed at the lengths to which you are going to defend yourself against or to excuse, rather, the germ, an undisputed germ of this case, which is that you clipped your nails under the table at a restaurant. And I would argue that anyone who saw it, if they were able to determine, oh, that you were clipping a hangnail, they wouldn't say, look at this sweet old lady clipping a hangnail. They would say, gross, but that's fine. You've got great lengths, including accusing your daughter of eating garbage off the floor.

And I admire your heel digging in. Susan. Susan. Yes. Are you still married? No, he divorced me after I flossed my teeth in front of him. That's not true, is it? That's what he's thought actually now. But he did divorce me.

And I actually do think we have good reviews about it. Actually, oh, I'm so glad you brought this up, actually, because I actually pointed out, poor Molly, I point out to him that he shouldn't be clipping his fingernails in a board meeting. What do we think about that? This is actually part of my mom's defense is that she knows when it is and is not appropriate to clip her nails. Because once she told my dad not to clip his nails in a board meeting. Yeah, your memory is serving you pretty well. When would that have been, Susan?

That's because all old people remember stuff from way long ago. I can't remember what I did right before I walked into the courtroom, but hey. I understand. No, believe me, I completely understand. I don't know where I am right now. You're in Maine. Oh, that's right. At the studios of WERU here in Blue River, Maine.

Yes, yes. Make sure you pledge at WERU.org. Tell them John and Joel sent you. Okay. I didn't mean to ask such a personal question, only that you had referred to him in the past tense, and I was just trying to ascertain whether he was a part of your life, and if he was not, was he still living or not?

He still is, and we're all very happy. We do family things together. So what did your ex-husband call the junk that Molly would pick up off the floor and eat? I'm not sure he saw her do that because he was out working with her husband. The latest instance of this was when I was in her kitchen in Brooklyn maybe two or three weeks ago and her daughter was eating lunch and so Ron and her husband were doing house projects outside, and she was just eating off the floor. And I also, at this point, I need to correct something. I have never clipped my toenails in front of Molly.

That's not true. Really? Well, we will agree to disagree, and neither of us has sworn testimony for corroboration or not. No, we won't agree to disagree. I'm going to decide. Oh, okay. Okay. So do you think that I clipped my toenails in her kitchen?

Susan? Yes? I'm going to do some investigation and see if I can come to the truth of the matter. Okay. But I appreciate your warning that Molly is not to be trusted. She's an untrustworthy garbage eater who might say anything. I won't trust the garbage that falls out of her mouth. Thank you.

Thank you, Your Honor. I think the boldest allegation is not simply the garbage eating, but the indiscriminate garbage eating. allegation is not simply the garbage eating, but the indiscriminate garbage eating. If I'm not mistaken, she was accused of eating things off of the ground without even checking what they are. Sounds like something that my dog Coco would do and something that my dog Sissy would not do. Only one of my two dogs would do that. Yeah, I can't completely deny that but i think beside the point all right molly her mother your your mother susan made reference and i was trying to get to the bottom of this but i feel we went off on about 15 different tangents regarding boardrooms and daughters and ron there was a word that she used to describe the garbage that you eat off the kitchen floor

and i thought that she said that it was your father who used this word. Did you hear that part of her testimony? Yeah. And what's that word? She said it started with a G, I think. It's gradu. It's gradu. And it wasn't in the moment.

He refers to little bits of stuff in various circumstances as gradu, and I think it's a great word. And I do think it kind of... Gradu, you're a French teacher. Does that have some Latin? I would just, all I can say is if I were in Paris, I'd say gradu. Gradu. Gradu. Merci beaucoup. Si, oui. Gras du. Gras du. Merci beaucoup. Oui. Is it something that you, some little morsel or treat or unexpected little treasure that you find and you call it a gras du because it is somehow a thanks to God? I think it has a little bit of, to do with density.

It has some density and it probably has like, sticky gumminess to it. But then probably flaky stuff coming or, like, particles that are coming off of it. That's all gross. What you're just saying is really gross to me and all the listeners. Yes, I had to watch it. You're cutting your toenails right now. No. As far as I'm concerned. I'm asking you about the etymology of a word and you start describing flaky.

What is the word? Can anyone answer me? Gras-du. How do you spell it? G-R-A-D-O-U, which probably says it came from French. So that's any flaky, sticky, icky, oozy, pussy bit of garbage that someone might pick up and eat? I learned the word in the context of him, and I'm describing it as he used it. I apologize for walking us down this icky, flaky road, Molly. Hello.

Yes. Hi. Welcome back, Molly. Thanks. Has your mother clipped her toenails in front of you? Yes. At my old apartment, my mom once clipped her toenails in my living room. old apartment my mom once clipped her toenails in my living room are you lie are you lying through your garbage encrusted teeth no all right molly is it you sent in some evidence i'm not sure what i'm not sure what it has to do with this case but you said some evidence can you can you describe the video i'm about to watch

yes oh have you watched it yet yes i've watched it i was a little scared of your first time reaction um so uploaded april 12 to 2012 so the reason i said this is... NYC visit, subtitled Mom on the Floor. And I will describe what I'm seeing. I am seeing an older woman that I presume to be Susan lying down on the floor with her feet up on a chair. And then a younger woman grabs the camera and begins to sing karaoke into a whisk. And the whole side of the room is given over to this karaoke. And what is the song that is being sung?

Is that you singing the song, Molly? That is my sister, Christy. I think that the song is called She's Having My Baby. She's Having My Baby. And now your mom is on the floor doing some leg exercises. Scissors kicks to keep my tummy very strong and youthful. Right, okay. And now you're doing a whole dance routine.

And then the camera turns to, I think, Molly, this is your husband, and you ask him, what do you think of your in-laws? And I think he gave me a skeptical look. Okay, let me ask you a question about this video. Susan, what were you doing on the floor? I think I was relaxing. Susan, what were you doing on the floor? I think I was relaxing.

I am notoriously horrible at karaoke, and therefore I don't participate. But, you know, I was enjoying the moment as they were doing karaoke. All right. And Molly wrote in when submitting the evidence that at the beginning of the video, which you can listen to on the show page, she could hear you talking to yourself. Is that right, Molly? Yes. What was she saying? I'm not sure how coherent or sensical it was. The reason that I sent it in was at the same dinner at which the nail clipping incident occurred, my mom had

she ordered a whole lot of cocktails or many, many cocktails called Lime Lime Rickies. They're delicious. They're yum, yum, yummy. Right. How many Lime Lime rookies have you had? Objection, Your Honor.

I don't know if I'm allowed to say objection, but I'm just uncomfortable with letting their yum, yum, yummy lie. They were. I think it helps my case to be talking about. It speaks to the character of the witness. Also, people want to be enjoying their yum It speaks to the character of the witness. Also, people want to be enjoying their yum, yum, yummy cocktails

at the bar that do not have fingernail clippings in them. It's relevant. All right. I'm trying to get to the bottom. What is the point? First of all, what is the point of taking an embarrassing video of your poor mother and putting it on the internet? Oh, well, I did not put it on the internet. That was my sister, Christy. The reason

that I sent in the video was because I was trying to kind of, I was trying to figure out what, like, when it was and what I very specifically remembered from that evening. And that's actually all that I had that was an actual piece of evidence that that evening occurred was that video. Let me also explain to the listening audience, which you'll see, is that this is karaoke that is happening in someone's apartment with four people in almost total darkness. It is one of the weirdest and creepiest videos. I feel like this is a video that I would find in the basement of a shack in the woods that had burned down. Yes. It's a weird video.

And Molly took it. And I don't see what point it serves whatsoever, Molly, other than to humiliate your poor mother. Yeah, that was my fear in sending it in. I perhaps was attempting a little bit of character assassination. What kind of food are you eating off the floor, Molly? Huh. I guess usually I'm eating something that my two-year-old has just dropped. Radu.

Which is grosser. Are you doing this in a restaurant or are you doing this in your home? Oh, no, I definitely do not eat off the floor, but in my home. Susan, do you live alone? Yes. Where do you live? Denver. Denver, Colorado, the Maya heart city?

And Peru. I live in Lima, Peru five months a year. Seven months a year I live in Denver. Is Peru a country or just something your ex-husband made up? It's a country. You live in Lima, Peru, seven months out of the year? Five months. Five months, sorry. Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. I love it. Do you have a home there? I rent an apartment. And what do you do when you're in Lima? All the same things I do here, but probably I eat better because I don't live in Brooklyn. Although

Denver has great food too. Why are you doing this, Susan? Why are you trashing my home? Oh, I actually, Molly can say that I actually have been wanting to move to Brooklyn. Although I love Denver. I think Denver is one of the greatest places in the world. Where I live in Lima is one of the most wonderful places for me anyway. And so is Brooklyn. I don't think you should move to Brooklyn. I don't think you want to be that close to sea level. I think you thrive in low oxygen environments. Well, no. Lima is on the, Lima is sea level. It's on the coast.

Oh, right, okay. I got it wrong. I got it wrong. You won that one, Susan. Thank you. How many years have you been going to Lima, Peru? Molly, be quiet. I'm talking about Lima now.

Seven years. Seven years. And what brought you there for the first time? Oh, I was a tourist in primarily in Chile and I lost my passport and ended up in Lima for a four day stay. And the guy that was driving me around to all the places, and I didn't speak any, I didn't speak any Spanish, but when I lost my passport, it was a crash situation. I mean, I was fending for my life on the streets because there was no hotel. I was conversational in the four days by the time I got to Lima because I'd been thinking in French when people were talking in Spanish.

And that had worked pretty well. And I fell in love with the culture and the food. Peruvian cuisine is out of this world. And it's a third the cost of living that we have in the United States. So I'm a walking advertisement for Peru. So basically, you fell down the stairs one day and you didn't have your passport. And you found yourself in Lima for a while and you liked it. There you go. And have you been to Machu Picchu? Finally, it's funny. It took me three years to go there. Well, it's a long road. Molly, you have a sister.

What is your sense of the likelihood? You have a daughter as well, right? Yes. What is your sense of the likelihood that when your daughter is your age, that you will be as wonderfully eccentric, argumentative, likely to lose your passport, and all in all, adorably weird as your mom. You said, what do I think the likelihood is?

Yeah, 50%, 60%, 0%. Yeah, that percentage probably goes up each year that you would ask me that question. Right now, 45%. Incorrect. 100%. I've heard everything that I need to hear. I'm going to go into my chambers. I'm going to accidentally find myself in Peru, where I keep my secret chambers at sea level, and I'll be back in a moment to render my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Molly, you brought this case against your mom.

How are you feeling about your chances right now? I'm feeling pretty confident. Your mom's pretty charming. You know that, right? I know, but I don't think that the judge will be persuaded by charm. I think he will rule based on the facts. And the fact is that clipping your toenails,

clipping your fingernails, not just at dinner, but at a restaurant at dinner. I mean, come on, right? It's gross. Yeah. Clearly. Is this America or is this? Anyway, I think there's hope, but initially I had no hope. It was coming along better toward the end, but I may be looking at trying to testify at a sentencing. At any point, did you consider just throwing yourself upon the mercy of the court? That's something that people talk about a lot, but I don't really know what it means. Oh, it's probably not in my personality. That's true. Can I ask you a question?

As a resident of Lima, Peru, should I consider you a flight risk? Whoa. No, because I have three kids in the United States, so I would never permanently leave the United States. I have a son in San Jose and Molly in Brooklyn, and then the karaoke singer is in Kentucky. I bet you love visiting your son in San Jose. in Kentucky. I bet you love visiting your son in San Jose. Do you know that I have yet to go there? He does not know that. I hope the judge takes into consideration the mental deterioration that is affected when we have kids that badger them, badger us.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this when we come back in just a second with his verdict. Okay. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right?

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This courtroom has ruled on a number of cases involving weird dads, such as the weird dad who was only known as Pig and Father Gnaw's Best, who had decided at some point to stop eating during the daytime and after dark only eat pepperoni. And the cow beef, in which a son brought his father to court to prohibit him from taking meditative retreat by saying cow over and over again, especially when he saw cows. And in almost all cases, I rule on the side of weird dads. There are just as many weird moms, and I feel that they've been underrepresented both in this courtroom and in our culture. I know that there are weird moms because we just finished a visit from my mother-in-law here in Maine.

And it's not just her. My own mother who is no longer alive, she and my dad were empty nesters. She was getting pretty weird, too. A lot of hobbies, a lot of decisions such as, I'm just going to go ahead and eat my cornflakes with a pint of heavy cream, which is fantastic if you've ever had it. But not something you would do under scrutiny of other human beings. We don't hear about weird moms so much, and especially not from children. Weird dads tend to be, you know, even the people who are bringing their weird dads to this court, they tend to celebrate their dad's weirdness, their extroverts, their performers. And you know, the thing of it is that when these older husbands lose their minds and start acting like children, the unfair thing is we expect the moms to hold it all together and not be weird. But that's not fair because moms were children once too. And when they regress, they regress to a time when they had a sense of humor and had fun

and were weird in just the same way. They deserve it. And the reality is, Molly, your mom is having the time of her life. I hope that that's true, Susan, because that's the sense that I get. Five months in Lima, Peru, Denver, Colorado, maybe I'll go here, maybe I'll go there. She's retired. She's enjoying herself. She loves a lime lime Ricky. They're yum, yum, maybe I'll go here, maybe I'll go there. She's retired. She's enjoying herself. She loves a lime lime ricky. They're yum, yum, yummy. Like, I want to get there so bad. You have no idea.

I want to be there. I want to be where you are, Susan, so bad you have no idea. You'll enjoy it. And the thing, and the reason that this happens, of course, is that, you know, and when you get older, and I can, I do keep in mind the deterioration of the brain that comes when you have children that don't appreciate you. Because I am just beginning, I'm just beginning that journey. And I see where it's going, Susan. Because when you get age, when you get age, you devote all your time to these human beings. And then they go away, and they don't care about you anymore. And as you get age, you devote all your time to these human beings, and then they go away, and they don't care about you anymore.

And as you get older, the culture at large basically writes you off as human garbage and stops paying attention to you. And unless you're gifted, and truly I think it's a gift, unless you're gifted with strong faith in an afterlife, you see where this is all heading and it's depressing, right? And the compensation is that you get to do whatever you want because no one really cares what you do anymore. The repercussions for weird behavior evaporate. It's liberating and invigorating to stop care about what other people think and it makes you feel good. And one thing that makes parents feel extra good is the pleasure of humiliating

and embarrassing their children with their own weird behavior. This is a critical hazing of youth that is important to your maturation, Molly, that your mom do things that embarrass you, right? And also call attention to the fact that you're eating food off the floor. That's good. There's an important compensation for aging. But however, it does not relieve you, Susan, of the rights to be a decent citizen in the world. Emily Post, manners are not there to control people's behavior. Manners are there to make other people feel comfortable. And that's why social mores change, because as more and more people wear their dumb baseball hats into restaurants, people feel more comfortable with it, and therefore it is not so important to take them off. As wrong as I think that is.

And the reality is, manners exist so that other people feel comfortable, so that you are still showing respect to the world and the way the world operates. Just being old doesn't obviously give you license to harm or hurt others. You still must show respect to the people around you. It is absolutely okay to clip your nails wherever you want in your home in Lima, Peru. Have a clip-in party. And it is okay

to embarrass your children on purpose. I highly endorse it. But it is equally important to have a basic fluency in how the world works and what it expects. And when you lose sight of that,

which you haven't, Susan, but when you do lose sight of what the world expects and how it operates, then that just becomes a sad kind of derangement, right? So I love you, Susan, and I love the fact that you would rather call your daughter a malicious garbage eater than acknowledge that maybe you made a mistake in this. I appreciate your spirit. And if you had thrown yourself on the mercy of this court and simply said what I think is true, I did a thing that I'm not so proud of and I'm embarrassed by it and I'm just not going to do it again and I apologize to my daughter. The fact that you refuse to apologize

to your daughter or anyone makes me like you more but makes this court judge you more harshly. Thus, the court finds in the favor of Molly with regard to the specific request that you not be allowed to clip your fingernails anymore. I can't believe that's what you meant, Molly. I believe it.

In fact, you should continue to clip your fingernails and practice basic hygiene, but do it in those places that are provided for the shedding of DNA in our culture, restrooms and not dining rooms, even if it's just a little hangnail snip. You know it's not true. I don't care if it's under the table. It doesn't make it right. Take that stuff indoors. I order you both, meanwhile, to go get manicures together. I've never had one,

but I hear it's fun. That'll happen when I get my place in Brooklyn very soon. Good. Well, I hope that we'll all get together for a martini and some fried chicken at Sidecar soon. I hope by now I've earned my free meal at Sidecar. No, don't worry, I'll pay for it. I know I will now that I'm going to get that uncooked bacon. But in the meantime, that is my ruling. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. How are you feeling, Molly? I feel elated. How about you, Susan? Oh, I think I probably got what I deserved.

I'm thrilled that he said he liked me. Yeah, maybe I had too many lime-lime rookies. I don't buy that I do it all the time, but I probably shouldn't have done it then, and I probably had a couple too many limelight rookies. Yeah. They do sound taste, taste, tasty or whatever that weird thing was that you said before. Yum, yum, yummy. Yeah.

Well, Molly, Susan, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience,

one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Hmm.

Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit.

No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Judge Hodgman, have you booked your tickets yet to Lima?

Click, click, click, typey, type, type, and yes, send. I have booked my tickets to Lima. I am going to go over to Susan's house and eat some of that Peruvian cuisine off of her floor. I have also completed my pledge submission to WERU.org here to thank Joel and everyone here at Community Radio Station in Blue Hill, Maine, for all their help. I'm going to miss them when I'm not here anymore. Well, I mean, it is nice that when you're doing it from your house, you don't have to wear clothes. I'm not wearing any clothes. It's Maine.

You know that Maine is nudist from July 30th through August 19th. Well, I mean, I guess if I had to live through those winters, I'd want to really take in the rays when they were there. Absolutely. And one more thing about Maine. You know, Jesse, we have our friend Jonathan, the fresh banana man at the southbound service plaza on I-95 in Kennebunk, Maine. The Portland Press-Herald did a little profile of Jonathan and his banana salesperson ship. And it will run this coming Sunday in the Maine Telegram and online at PressHerald.com. And you can read it and learn more about this fascinating young man.

And here's some quotes from yours truly, Judge John Hodgman. I was interviewed while waiting for my cargo van contract to be rewritten at the Enterprise Rent-A-Car lot behind the Shell station in Bangor, Maine. I've got to tell you, that is a location that truly reminds you why Maine is so very special. Sounds magical. All right, Jesse, what's on the docket? Okay, we've got something from Becca here. My mother will use whatever's at hand to floss her teeth after meals.

What is wrong with moms? This includes pieces of mail or random pieces of paper. I'll offer to get her actual floss, but she always says, no, thank you. She doesn't do it out in public, but she has no problem doing it

when she's visiting with me or my siblings at our homes. My dad and I think this is a gross habit. Judge Hodgman, will you please tell my mom to use real floss? Look, I don't care what your mom flosses her teeth with, so long as she does not do it in

front of other humans. I'm glad she doesn't do it in restaurants that I frequent in Brooklyn, but I would extend that same basic human courtesy to your own homes. If I'm going to floss, I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to use floss, but it doesn't really matter. That's a matter of personal choice. Tell your mom, go into the bathroom, and if you want, you can even give her a little kit, a little quiver of flossing items, such as credit cards and swizzle sticks and pieces of twine and maybe a length of your own hair if she's so unchoosey. A toothpick for picking your teeth in front of other humans is okay

in an outdoor eating establishment where barbecue is served, but otherwise, keep all that stuff in private, you guys. Have you ever seen the movie The Limey? You know, I'm embarrassed to say I have not. Number one, you should watch it he's a wonderful movie yeah that's what i've heard there's this great part where peter fonda

who is a record executive in the movie like a like a baby boomer you know golden age of rolling stone type record executive is explaining something to his girlfriend, who is the daughter of an old friend of his. She's like 25 or something. And as he's explaining, what he's explaining is what the 60s were all about. And as he's doing it, he's cleaning his teeth in the mirror with one of those little sword things. Yeah. Like the little, you know, the kind that's like a bottle brush. Yeah, I know. It's exactly what you're talking about. And it's one of the most, and he kind of goes at the end.

And it's one of the most compelling like minutes of cinema I've ever seen. And apparently it just happened because Steven Soderbergh just asked Peter Fonda one day about why he had such nice teeth. And Peter Fonda just whipped one of those out and was like, oh yeah, this is why. And that is, in fact, what the 60s is all about. Older dudes who are into themselves talking to younger people about how great the 60s were while taking care of their decaying bodies. Here's a note from Gabriella.

I'm an American student studying abroad in London. You mentioned in one of your podcasts that you'll also spend a semester in London and worked at a cheese stop on Butte Street. I heard that particular fact just as I was exiting the South Kensington tube station. Since I was in the area, I went to find out the fate of your beloved cheese shop. Jeroboam, it was called. I approached the owner of a local French-language bookstore, and he remembered the cheese shop. He said it was run out of business because, quote,

the youth they hired did not know what they were doing, unquote. He also told me that a young woman who worked there once sold him cheese with little critters in it. a young woman who worked there once sold him cheese with little critters in it. The former cheese shop storefront currently houses Acosta Coffee, the world's second largest coffee chain. Oh, wow, that buzzed marketing since I gave so much love to Sidecar. Butte Street now mostly consists of food shops that sell bread in various forms. And she sent in a photo, and I can verify that that is this.

That's I remember that shop front so distinctly. I remember standing out there just watching all the reason there was a French language bookstore on the street is there's a French language high school at the end of the street. And I would watch all the pimply young French boys and girls walk up and down the street and loathe me. And then I would go inside and sell pavé d'affinois to Elton John's percussionist. Oh, what a time I had selling cheese at that very place. But it did go away.

I believe there are still branches of Jeroboam's in London. I saw one as recently as I think 2009, but that particular branch closed because the young peoples, they did not know what they were doing. Now, it's possible that what the cheese with little critters in it, maybe, maybe could be the kazoo marzoo, which is the famous rotten cheese of Sardinia that is served with little cheese fly larva inside of it. But I think probably it was just some cheese that went bad. Any more cheese recommendations that you need, Jesse?

No, but I really appreciate those. And hey, Jesse, since I'm talking about some of my favorite places to eat and drink cheese, and I do drink a lot of cheese, I admit it. I don't want to not give love to my other favorite restaurant in Brooklyn, Tal Day, since I'm being homesick and catching free meals,

or at least hoping that Tal Day won't lock their doors to me because I talked about that other restaurant for a while. Tal Day sure does make some good fried chicken as well, but not the Southern-style fried chicken that Sidecar makes, a Korean fried chicken with a sriracha sauce that is good. Oh, that sounds nice. You know, there was a restaurant in Red Hook,

Brooklyn, that used to listen to Maximum Fun podcasts in the kitchen, and they were kind enough to invite me there. And I dined on free appetizers, and I probably ordered too many other things, given that then all of a sudden free appetizers started appearing. Unfortunately, I think, from what I've heard, the Max Fund fans that used to work there no longer work there. But I wonder if there are any restaurants out there with kitchen staffs who listen to Judge John Hodgman while they're preparing food. If you are, write in and I will come and visit your kitchen. Yeah, we'll make a sort of like a Mr. Rogers style thing out of it. Yeah, I'll come and visit your kitchen and eat food off the floor. I'll eat some gradu. Gradu very much, Jesse, for coming back.

I hope you've had a good summer. Gradu to all the listeners and gradu again to WERU here in Blue Hill, Maine. I love killing and eating those lobsters, but I also love thinking about home. That's what the end of summer means.

Special thanks to our producer, Julia Smith, our editor, Mark McConville, all our friends out there in Maine. Can't do, guys. If you've got a case for Judge John Hodgman, email it to us at hodgman at maximumfund.org. I cannot stress this enough. We need your cases.

Hodgman at maximumfund.org or use our easy-to-use web form at maximumfund. We need your cases. Hodgman at MaximumFun.org or use our easy to use web form at MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. Easy peasy. It'll be great. It'll be awesome. It'll be famous. You'll get to talk to your hero, Judge John Hodgman. You know he's your hero. You can like us on Facebook if you want a chance to name future episodes of Judge John Hodgman. Our thanks this week to Brian Kopp. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Court is adjourned.

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