Judge John Hodgman - Guilty as Charred

Episode Date: December 24, 2015

Simone brings the case against her husband, Julian. They're currently living abroad in Portugal, on the island of Madeira. They've enjoyed adapting to the customs of their new home, but Julian can't get used to their special built-in grill. Simone says they should do as the Portuguese do and figure out how to take advantage of this beautiful piece of equipment. Julian thinks they should just buy a hibachi. Who's right? Who's wrong?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, guilty as charred. Simone brings the case against her husband Julian. They're currently living abroad in Portugal on the island of Madeira. They've enjoyed adapting to the customs of their new home, but Julian can't get used to their special built-in barbecue. Simone says they should do as the Portuguese do and figure out how to take advantage of this beautiful piece of equipment. Julian thinks they should just buy a hibachi. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom

and presents the obscure cultural reference. Ultimately, that's the best advice I can give. Do, and do some more. Drink beer, but not so much that you lose track of what you're doing. And pay attention. Bailiff Jesse, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he cooks all of his food, including fresh fruit, in a sous vide machine? Yes. I do. Very well. Judge

Hodgman? Well, technically it's sous vide, but it's sous vide instead of using slightly boiling water. I just use incredibly hot fat. So I'm deep fat frying things in plastic. It's my new innovation. Nathan Myhrvold would be proud. Oh, Simone and Julian, you're still standing up. You may be seated. For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you name the very brief direct quote that I direct quoted as I entered the courtroom? direct quote that I direct quoted as I entered the courtroom. Julian, you have been drug into this court against your will by Simone. You are the respondent.

So you have a first choice as to whether you want to guess or make Simone guess first. Do you want to hear the quote again? Yes, please. Your honor. No, I won't. I won't do it. I remember beer. I would like then, Your Honor, to pass it over to Simone. Simone, you have the first guess. I, too, am a little bit flummoxed. I heard beer and the rest was a bit of a wash.

Simone, would you like to hear the quote again? Yes, please. I shall. Just for you, Simone. Sorry, Julian. Thank you. Ultimately, in fact, I'll give you a little bit more of the quote than what I initially read, which may help. Ultimately, that's the best advice I can give. Do and do some more. Drink beer, but not so much that you lose track of what you're doing.

And pay attention. Sweat the details, and you'll end up producing barbecue that would make the most seasoned of pitmasters proud. Simone, your guess? I'm going to say Bobby Flay. Julian, your guess? I'm going to say Bobby Flay. Julian, your guess? Oh, man. J.D. Salinger.

All guesses are wrong. Although, you know what, Simone, you weren't too off with Bobby Flay. And in particular, with regard to the case that we're hearing between you and Julian, Bobby Flay is a great example of not someone who barbecues, but someone who grills. We'll talk about that distinction in a moment. But in fact, this is a quote from someone who barbecues and barbecues very, very well. His name is Aaron Franklin of Franklin Barbecue. And that was from the introduction to his amazing book, Franklin Barbecue, A Meat Smoking Manifesto.

For indeed, barbecue is the art of smoking meats over low heat over a long period of time. Tough cuts of meat, such as ribs or brisket, become tender when you cook them over a long period of time at low heat. You can do that in a wet environment, and that's called braising, or you can do it in a dry environment with wood smoke over indirect wood smoke heat, and that is called barbecue, whereas cooking at high heat directly over smoldering coals or a fire is called grilling. That's what Bobby Flay does, and that's why we don't talk about him anymore.

And I do not go in for a lot of buzz marketing on my program, but Aaron Franklin and Benji down there at Franklin Barbecue in Austin, Texas, I've been to a lot of real barbecue places, and what they're doing down there is, frankly, the best brisket I've ever had in my mouth. And I say that because I'm fond of them personally. I am fond of that food, and I want them to be nice to me when I go to Austin, Texas.

So please, everyone, go there. You already know to go there, but go there and buy that book. It's incredible. And I think probably, Julian, you're going to end up having to buy a copy, or Simone, you'll buy a copy for Julian as a late winter solstice Saturnalia present. That's right. Festivus present. Because there's a lot that you both need to learn. I know this already from reading your brief that you sent in, Simone. But let's talk about it. Simone, you guys live abroad. You have a house.

The house has a, let's call it a grill, attached to it, a built-in covered grill that you describe as looking like an ornate Thai temple. And your husband, Julian, is dissatisfied with this grill and would like to purchase another. You would like me to order him not to. Do I have it correct? That's right. That's right, Your Honor. And Julian, why is this unreasonable? You have an ornate Thai temple grill in your home. That's true, Your Honor. Why do you need something else? Well, Your Honor, it's about exactly what you were talking about,

the slow-cooking, North American-style barbecue, not the grilling that I can do outside, but the slow-roasting barbecue that I'm after. Okay, let me get some details about who you are and where you are in the world and in your life. I know your names. They're Bob and Mary. And, no, Simone and Julian.

You are married, is that correct? Correct. Yes, you're right. And you are, where are you in the world now? We're on the island of Madeira. It's part of Portugal and it's off the coast of Morocco and why are you a married couple living on Madeira did you move your whole life there have you have you have you become house hunters internationals

in a way yes international yes we moved from, where I'm originally from, to Lisbon, and from Lisbon to this little island off the coast of Portugal in Morocco for academic jobs. And what is your job? What is your research? We work at a human-computer interaction institute. Why are you being so coy about this? Can you just tell me? Is it secret?

Well, it's complicated. No, it's not a secret. No, no. We're misfits in a kind of computer-y, tech-y kind of institute. You're really being very vague. You said something about human computer interaction? Yes, Your Honor. Yeah. So let me see if I understand.

You're husband and wife researchers at a mysterious institute on an island off the coast of Portugal and Morocco that is turning humans into computers. Is that right? More or less. You're rogue scientists outlawed in every country, so you take refuge there on Cyborg Island to do your unholy experiments? Yes, more or less. And it's just the two of you and your long-haired cat, is that correct? You know, the one that you're always stroking.

And those two kids we call our children, our human children. Yeah, we have two mixed-up kids as well. Oh, nice. How old are your children? They're an 11-year-old boy and an eight-year-old girl. All right. Well, that's the last we'll talk about them. They and Bobby Flay are in the no-talk corner. They love barbecue. And so describe this grill that is in question. In fact, you sent in evidence. So I'm going to let you describe it, Simone, while I take a look at the photos that is in question. In fact, you sent in evidence. So I'm going to let you describe it, Simone, while I take a look at the photos that you sent in. Well, it's a very stately kind of monolithic thing. It's built mostly out of brick and

has a workspace on either side, a ceramic sink to the right. The grill itself is really big. I'd say as big as a small cubicle desk. This is where you live doing your horrible experiments? It's beautiful. Let me explain what I'm looking at here on the Isle of Madeira which is that it's Portuguese territory is that correct yes that's right okay so you guys have a beautiful yellow not nuts not stucco I

don't know what you would call this you know it's not stone or stucco but it's this yellow house overlooking which looks to me like the Atlantic Ocean. On a beautiful sunny patio, you have a built-in, basically an outdoor kitchen, a big tile outdoor fireplace with a roof built in, and the roof has beautiful tiles, and it's kind of a Moorish, I wouldn't say a Thai temple, but it has kind of a Spanish moorish look to it. And it looks to me like you have at waist height, you have a brick fire pit and a big grill that goes over it. I have a friend named Adam Sachs, who is the editor-in-chief of Savour magazine, who paid

quite a pretty penny to have one of these installed inside his home. Quite a pretty penny. And by a pretty penny, I one of these installed inside his home. Quite a pretty penny. And by a pretty penny, I mean many, many millions of pennies. People, I envy you this thing, Julian. So what's the problem? Why aren't you happy with this? Do you not know how to use it? That's part of the problem, Your Honor. But I do use it. I do use it. I have used it for

grilling things. The main problem is that it's as beautiful as it is, it's not very practical. It's a bit like inheriting a giant old Cadillac when you need a smart car. It has no temperature controls. You can't raise or lower. You can't cover. There's no convection. There's no... It's just for searing. And it's basically for making one dish,

which is the Madeiran shpetada, which is meat on a stick. So it's great for that, but we've never made meat on a stick before. It's the simple life. And someone wants a full pork, and I can never made meat on a stick before. It's the simple life. And someone wants pulled pork, and I can't do it on this grill. Wait, are you telling me

that there's no way to control the temperature? No, absolutely. That's not true. People have been... There's no knob, but there are other ways to control the temperature of a fire. That's right. There's plenty of space to move the fire to a fire. That's right. There's plenty of space to move the fire

to one corner or the other, move the food to one side of the grill or the other. I would agree with you, Jesse. One of the most important ways to control when you're cooking over flames or embers, and when you do use it, what's your fuel? Are you using wood burning down to embers or are you using charcoal? Charcoal so far, although we do have some wood from our fig tree that Simone just cut down.

I bet that's too green to burn. It's pretty green right now, yeah. Yeah. It sputters a bit. So, all right, but you can't raise the grate. I figured you were able to, but you can't raise the great you i i figured you were able to but you can't you can't raise that great because that's the that's the top way that you would control i mean aside from creating a hot zone and a cool zone which is very easy to do and you have plenty of room to do it in there and frankly you don't have an excuse for not doing it by hot zone and cool

zone for the kids at home who who are 10 and under who are thinking about making fires to cook for their families, what you do is you make a big pile of charcoal on one side and you light that up and then you let that get ready to cook and then you have much less charcoal on the other side or maybe no charcoal on the other side. And that's your cool zone, right? It's hot where there's fire. That's the old saying. You know that old saying, where there's hot, there's fire? That's where that comes from.

There is plenty of room for hot and cool zones, but the roof of the grill is very high, and the heat escapes, and there's not really a lot of movement, a lot of airflow. There's no air under it either. As you can see from the photo, it's wide open. There is your airflow. Yeah, wide open. Wide open.

What is it that you want to cook that you can't cook on this thing? I mean, I'm not disagreeing with you that this is made for a purpose, which is to grill meat on a stick. I'm going to set aside my utter confusion as to why you have a problem with grilling meat on a stick over fire, overlooking the Atlantic Ocean on your patio in Madeira on an island after a long day of inserting computers into human brains. But given that you are dissatisfied, there is something else you want to do in your life besides this. I don't get it. But what is the thing you want to do in your life that is not that?

That is all good. Although all you can get in restaurants is the shpetada. So I need a break from the shpetada so i need a break from the shpetada sometimes um but uh it's not been my experience but that's fine i guess just any anything slow roasted uh beef brisket ribs kind of a whole chicken pork shoulder tenderloin anything anything of that nature would would just char and be raw inside and well right you don't tell me that you've tried to do a a pork butt on your on your portuguese grill no i have not no you want to do barbecue yes there's an extenuating extenuating circumstance

your honor which is that uh we just had a friend and colleague join us here on the island he works uh installing computers into human brains along with us and he um is a barbecue enthusiast and is quite chummy with julian and since arriving which was about october roughly the time when Julian started complaining about our grill, he's been feeding Julian lots of ideas. You know, it's a nice exchange they have. But before this time, Julian was perfectly happy with our grill. And I've never heard him, frankly, until tonight, talk about things like pork butts and briskets and things of this sort. I talk about these things, but I'm perfectly happy to cook those things inside in our oven. So I think a

lot of this has arisen through his friendship. Are you also from Vancouver, Simone? No, I'm from Colorado. Also not a region known for its traditional pit barbecue, though I'm sure they have their styles. Now, you say that he was always perfectly happy with the grill before. What's the name of this troublemaker who arrived? James. James? Jesse James.

Who wrote me a very good affidavit by the way, your honor. Did he? All right, we'll get to that in a moment. I didn't see that in the evidence, but I'll take a look for it. Okay, stand by. You don't tell me what I have or don't have.

So it's the way all, it's the way all good stories start. Stranger comes to the island, starts causing trouble, starts interfering, starts hanging around, poisoning a spouse's mind with dreams of brisket

and low and slow cooking. Where's James from? He's from London, Your Honor. Oh, right, that other barbecue center of the world. Yeah, exactly. But I have another... Besides complaining about how hard it is to do indirect heat barbecuing in Madera,

is he also complaining about how hard it is to find jellied eel? Yes, all the time. Okay. Yes, Your Honor. find jellied eel yes all the time okay yes your honor uh but you you're simone you said julian was perfectly happy until james started coming around pouring poison into his ear about brisket but you're making the error that that many a spouse makes just because someone isn't complaining about a thing doesn't mean they're perfectly happy. In fact, it may be that Julian has been imperfectly happy all this time.

And it wasn't until James came along that he had someone to say it to. I'll put it to Julian. Have you, have you been quietly low and slow? Has there been a low and slow fire quietly seething in your breast over the fact that you only have a built-in outdoor kitchen with a wood burning oven and not, and not the,

the, the, the award-winning indirect smoking rig that you dream of? Or did James just turn you bad? I admit he put a few ideas in my head. And another colleague who arrived from L.A. with a smoker also added flame to the fire. But I'm actually thinking of Simone and her love for brisket when I think

about what I could do with that $100 kettle barbecue. So you're doing this thing that she doesn't want for her. Exactly. It's for her. Well, I'm willing to concede that there are things I need to learn about discerning barbecuing from grilling, as the Judge Hodgman has pointed out at the beginning. And actually, I haven't requested that Julian try to prepare brisket or anything of the sort, anything Texan. My mother's from Texas, by the way, but I haven't requested any of these things from him. I always consult with Julian about what we're going to serve.

Normally we barbecue only, or sorry, grill only, when we have people coming over. And it tends to be kinds of things like hamburgers when we're pressed for time. More recently, polenta. I'm trying to think of some names. I know we can do better. We can do better. And I do believe we can do better.

I would like Julian to do the homework that's required to find out exactly how to get the most out of this grill that we already have. I think there's a lot that can be done with this grill. No, you're getting the most out of it. You're not going to get anything more out of that grill. Because as they say, it's designed for one thing. I mean, it's not even a wood-fired oven because it's not enclosed. You know, it's a wood-burning or charcoal-burning grill. It's very handsome and culturally appropriate to the world in which you are living.

It wouldn't be built in there unless I presume it's pretty common among Madeiran homes. Yeah, very common. Right. Because of this tradition of, what do you call it? Spritadada? It's called spetada. E-S-P-E-T-A-D-A. Did I get that right, Jamie? Yeah, it looks like espetada. E-S-P-E-T-A-D-A. Did I get that right, Jamie?

Yeah, it looks like espetada. Espetada. That's a typical Portuguese dish made usually of large chunks of beef, rubbed in garlic and salt, skewered onto a bay leaf stick, cooked over hot coals or wood chips. Other meats, including pork and chorizo, are also commonly used. I'm quoting Wikipedia. Gosh, Judge Hodgman, I am so impressed. Your mind is like an encyclopedia.

And here, on the Wikipedia itself, is a picture of, basically, your wood stove. Dan Wikipedia snuck into your house one afternoon when you weren't there and took a picture

of grilling ash pitada at a Portuguese community day in Petersham, New South Wales. Okay. In any case, that's what it's for. That's exactly what it's for. And it can't be used to bake. It can't be used to roast.

It can't be used to bake. It can't be used to roast. It can't be used to smoke. It's an unenclosed environment. So you want to do those things outside Julian. You want to make a brisket for your wife so that you can prove to her that you're not from Texas, but actually from Vancouver. That's a really bold thing to do, by the way, to make a brisket for a woman whose mother is from Texas. And you're from Vancouver. I wish you luck, sir. You're taking a big risk.

I'm just trying to do my best. It's one of the hardest things. It's one of the hardest things in the world to barbecue, you know. You want to do some actual low and slow cooking. And what is the rig that you want to get in order to do this? What do you propose? The modest kettle barbecue. Nothing fancy, just something that is covered and has vents would satisfy me.

Okay. So, like, I'm going to say the name because it's almost synonymous with the product, the Weber Kettle Weber kettle grill. Yeah. And can you get one of those on Madeira, or do you have to have that specially airlifted in for you? You can get one just down the street. Oh, so obviously you've been lingering by the kitchenware shop after work. Yeah, walking up and down the street asking local business people if they sell grills

that's about how much christmas is coming how much does it cost uh i think it costs about 100 euros uh and what and is that something you can afford simone i would say not really. There's a big queue of things that we need to spend money on that would have to fall beneath. Microprocessors, flying monkeys. Simone, is your objection to adding on the Weber Kettle Grill truly financial or philosophical? It's a bit philosophical, And it's also my aesthetic. I think if you've got something that does the job, and I still contend that our grill does the job. We have never talked about making brisket or any kind of smoked meats. In fact, I don't feel inclined to barbecue as a regular part of our lives because it's carcinogenic, and I kind of want to limit our intake of that kind of food.

And now with James in town— You're referring to the big study that came out that said grilled and smoked meats are carcinogenic. We've had less sausages. came out that said that said grilled and smoked meats are carcinogenic and and the truth and the truth the truth of the matter is to the degree that that is true uh i've not read the study but my understanding of it was it was not merely smoked and preserved meats but you know grilling meats and charring meats is also uh not health not particularly healthy in the same way now i'll eat them all i'll eat them all the live long day. But I don't think, I'm just going to say right now that if you eat some barbecue brisket this year, you're not going to get cancer.

You know what I mean? I don't think that's an argument that really holds water with me. But that's not really my argument. My argument is that we grill plenty and we go to James's house who barbecues every time we go there for dinner. Our other friends... Let's talk about James for a second. Okay.

Does James, and I'll ask Julian, because he's the one who's keenly aware of these distinctions. Does James barbecue when you go over to his house? Or does he grill? He does a bit of both. He uses a Weber grill, but he often covers, uses the smoke,

does it off the heat. So he's kind of smoking a little. He's grilling a little. What is he making for you? Traditional southern barbecue he's grilling what is he making what is he making for you traditional traditional southern barbecue via the portuguese community day in petersham new south wales well he just moved from brixton a couple of months ago so he's kind of doing a brixton tenderloin jerk yeah he's doing a little jerk he's's done pork belly. He's a wonderful cook.

He does amazing things with me. I won't lie. Why don't you just go over to his house and use his toy? Why do you have to have the same toy? That's a very good question, Your Honor. I guess I would like the option to make that kind of stuff myself. Are you as good a cook as James? I would say overall maybe yes, but not in the barbecue department because I'm an ex-vegetarian.

Why is James so super cool and you want to be... Wait a minute. Hang on a second. That just sunk in. When did you stop being a vegetarian? About a decade ago. It was a while ago now. But he was a vegetarian for 16 years. That's true.

And then you and then you stop being a vegetarian. And now all of a sudden, you just want to cook meat all day long. You have really turned. Yes, more or less, Your Honor. Have you done much smoking, slow cooking on the kettle grill before? Not at all. Zero. To Simone, I understand. It's not that I doubt him, Simone, but the fact that he hasn't done it before does not to me necessarily mean he's not allowed to do it in the future the way it does seem to mean to you. I actually thought it was coming from my wife, Your Honor.

I thought that she was trying to push me to slow cook on the grill. And that was where the problem arose. I thought that originally that was our discussion. I might have been confused. was where the problem arose i thought that originally that was our our discussion i might have been confused i'll admit about the the wherewithal of our our grill and what it was capable of doing and not doing but were you asking him to make what were you asking him to make on the grill ribs ribs oh yeah okay i have asked for ribs. That's true. I asked fully expecting that the answer could be no. I asked not knowing if ribs could be done in such a way.

And I'm still not convinced that they can't. You could braise them in your oven until they were more or less done, and then you put them on to char a little bit and, and sauce them on the grill. That'll work. And that was my idea. Yes. Granted. So I want you Julian to explain to Simone why you dream of getting a smoker and making beautiful meats for your wife that will make you as cool as James?

Okay. Well, it's beautiful barbecuing weather all year round here. And I find the grill fun. I'm not proposing abandoning the grill by any means, but you have to build a giant charcoal fire in this giant cavernous pit. And I would like something a little more functional. And I'd like to do something sweet, like make a nice brisket or a pork shoulder for my lovely wife. Because I know that's what she really desires in her heart. Does that move you in any way, Simone? I'm a little touched. I didn't know that Julian had these desires.

And it's somewhat touching. I don't know that he's utterly sincere. Absolutely. In this, but... Oh't know that he's utterly sincere in this. Oh, you think he's lying? Yeah, I mean, this is just out of character, Your Honor. This is a very bookish fellow you're speaking with. Do you think his computer brain has gotten a virus of some kind? That was my original hesitation, Your Honor. I'm actually an English professor masquerading as a computer guy. That's, uh, see, are you living a lie? I am living a lie,

Your Honor, although I'm trying to tell the truth more and more The longer I stay here and want to remain here. Truly the truth is a journey, not a destination. That's true. We're getting there. Is it the case? Now, look, I don't want this to become House of News International, but I do want to know, is Madeira the kind of island where no matter what your background is, whether it's English academia or, let's say, podcasting, and you've never touched a computer or a robot or a human before in your life, you could go over there and just say, hey, I want to start studying human-computer interaction. And they'll let you do it.

There's no laws or restrictions upon your research. I'll let my wife handle it. No one checks up on you? I think that you... And they give you a house with a fire pit in it? I think I'm living evidence that that can happen under certain circumstances. We both are.

But we have to work hard. We work hard, but it's an eclectic institute, obviously. Lots of people from very different disciplines. We're kind of on the loony end, the opposite end of the hall from the engineers. Is it the Dharma Initiative? It is. You're not far off. I have a question. The entrance to your institute, what shape is it carved in on that cliffside overlooking the ocean? It's hard to tell because it's behind a waterfall. Volcano-shaped.

Simone, how does it make you feel for your husband to be dissatisfied with his grill and thus his life with you on cyborg island altogether well i wouldn't want that your honor but i don't really i i guess i'm just um i'm suspicious here that he's not being satisfied i I think that if there were dissatisfaction, it wouldn't be because of grilling or barbecuing. I really think that this is kind of, I don't know. I don't know what reasons he has, if they're legitimate. Cheaper than a convertible. And James has...

I'm really, you know what? Here's the thing. Here's the thing. You know what? Here's the thing. Here's the thing. I just really need to understand, if you want me to find in your favor, why the idea of having this other piece of equipment in your patio is not okay with you. What is so troubling about having a simple kettle grill in addition to this other grill? I just find it kind of gauche, just the whole notion of acquiring something that will probably never get used and will sit there and puzzle all our Portuguese guests. Why have they acquired this thing when they have this beautiful stately grill in the background?

I hate to say it, but some of the some of those stereotypes are true. The Portuguese are very judgy about outdoor acquisitions. That's what they're known for. And I can last question. I can understand why you would feel the pressure of time. I mean, given the accelerating pace of your research, and the imminent coming of the new world order that it's almost certain to precipitate. That's right. That's right. There's a lot to think about. Well, it's once they, I mean, the truth is once they're able to open that interdimensional barrier and move on to the new plane of existence, they're not going to need a kettle grill anymore. They're going to put on their jumpsuits and walk through to the future of humanity, leaving us all behind on an earth that has been depleted to gradually fall into chaos and start eating

each other, making espatadas of humans. They're going to have their robot brains in the next dimension. They're not going to need that stuff anymore because they're not going to be eating food. They're going to be eating special shakes and thumb drives. I've heard everything that I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to go into my into my Moorish style library and consider my decision and then make it and then I'll come back. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Simone, do you feel that you've made a compelling case to the judge? No, I don't. I don't. I think my argument, I felt it was, you know, ironclad coming into this. And I don't know,

I just didn't argue any points, I think, that were convincing to the judge. I feel like you have, like the basis of your argument is something about bringing an outside creature onto an island. Like you're concerned that if you get this kettle grill pretty soon, it's going to multiply and Madera's native grills are going to be overwhelmed by invading Weber kettle grills.

It is a bit like that, my fear. Yes, I'd say so. Julian, how are you feeling about your chances? I feel better than before I started. And I'm glad that the judge started with the distinction between barbecue and grilling, which I thought I just invented five minutes before coming on the air. If you get this grill that you're hoping for so much, what's the first thing that you're going to make?

Ooh, I've been talking about brisket a lot, but it sounds like it might be a steep climb. So maybe I'll start with a pork loin of some sort. We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this when we come back in just a second. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you,

the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join, and you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning, causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel.

We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real-life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world,

and you get to hear this sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyper-academic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for

our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In.

Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with made-in pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made-in, made-in. The Rohan duck, made-in, made-in. Riders of Rohan, duck!

What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made in, made in. Made in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. The best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs. The best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town?

Just buy it online. This is professional grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit MadeInCookware.com. That's M-A-D-E, visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. I've smoked a few meats myself in the past couple of years.

Now that I've gotten out of the city a little bit more and not in beautiful island of Madeira but in the painful forests of Maine and I'm going to try to explain to your wife Julian what you couldn't which is the great pleasure of getting up at 5 o'clock in the morning and getting a little fire going

and then shutting the dampers on the smoker to get a certain temperature and then putting that meat in there and then sitting there quietly as watching the sunrise as you wait for 10 hours for a brisket to become uh edible and when i edible, that does not connote good. After 10 hours, it was no good. It was no good. And there are a lot of reasons that it was no good. One of which is that brisket is notoriously temperamental as a thing to barbecue, to cook, to slow roast. And also because it is hard to find a good full brisket, which has both the fatty part and the leaner part on it, which is what you really need to do in order to barbecue brisket.

But even so, the process of barbecue is a wonderful one. It's wonderful and mysterious and contemplative. and contemplative. Grilling is done fast and hot and next to a party as you make hamburgers and spittata for your fellow replicant makers and brain researchers and mad scientists

from all over the world. And it's a social event to grill. That's the traditional, what they would call a barbecue. You see, you know, world's greatest chef dude, you know, flipping burgers and handing out, handing out hot dogs, but smoking barbecue is a long, long hours alone. And, and it may be that after a long day, uh, transferring, uh, monkey brains into, into humans and robot brains into monkeys, that that's exactly what Julian needs

to do. I don't know for sure. And it is true that what I think you've both come to realize is that you have a thing that is great, this built-in wood fire, but it is limited. It is not something, you know, the conflation in most people's mind between grilling and barbecue has come to a literal example here in this discussion, because you were using those terms interchangeably when you came into this courtroom, and it was perhaps unknown to you that the things that Julian wanted to make are not things that he can make on that fire, and you didn't believe him when he said that. And I'm glad that I've been here to tell you, no, you can't.

You can do only one thing on that grill. And that's basically grill meats and vegetables at high heat to delicious perfection. I find it to be a little offensive that having a built-in outdoor wood fire isn't the thing that is firing your imagination because I would be so excited to experience that. But sometimes cooler but no less powerful embers burn in a person's heart. They want to do a certain thing. And what Julian wants to do is barbecue. And the kettle grill is not very expensive. And there seems to be no reason in the world why I shouldn't find in his favor. But I'm not going to because Julian, you don't know what you're talking about.

Because Julian, you don't know what you're talking about. You, you, you said that you wanted something more functional than a fire grate. But making brisket or pork butt isn't functional. It's madness. It's, it's a day's worth of work. It's ritual. It's not function in the least. Fire is function. Smoke is mysticism. And the truth is that you don't have any experience. You didn't know that there

was a difference between grilling and barbecue. You had intuited it. And I'm not saying that you're a dum-dum, okay? I'm just saying you're on a path. And your path, you're still pretty early on in that path because in some intuitive level you understood there was a difference between barbecue and grilling but you didn't know that enough to make the argument to your wife you had to make me make it for you you said that you started to feel better about your case as you went along i feel better than before i started and and that's that's how. You start something, you don't feel very good about it, and slowly over time, you gain confidence and skill and experience. That's barbecue too, because that 10 hours that I invested in that brisket ended up being the worst brisket I've

ever put in my mouth. And probably the next two or three or four of them will be equally bad. But as we began with the quote from Aaron Franklin, the best advice that you can give is do and do some more. Drink beer, but not so much that you lose track of what you're doing and pay attention. Barbecue and his whole book,

which I encourage you and indeed order you to buy, is about the beautiful self-education about ingredients, about cooking techniques, about fires, about temperature control, and about smoking and grills themselves that a self-education in barbecue provides you. And that's a journey. And I appreciate that you want to go on that journey, but I don't think you're there yet. Julian, what's the difference between the flat and the point of the brisket? Oh, Your Honor, I have no idea.

Do you know where on the pig is the pork butt found um tempted to say the butt of course you are go ahead give it a try but all guesses are wrong. It's the shoulder. Do you know where the pork loin comes from? That's somewhere more in the middle, I believe. Ha! Oh, no. I'm failing.

15 years of education, your honor. Look, this is not knowledge that anyone is born with. Before you can reasonably invest in a piece of equipment, you need to learn yourself a little bit more about the subject. For example, a kettle grill is a grill. It's not a smoker. A smoker is a smoker. Now you can trick out a kettle grill to do some smoking, but it's not the, it's not true indirect side firebox type smoking.

It's going to be, it's a, it's going to be a Frankenstein's monster approach to smoking that pork butt, AKA shoulder? You know, what James is doing is the best he can with the materials at hand. But you don't know that that's not what it is. So you need to do some research. You need to import this book by Aaron Franklin. You need to look online and watch people and observe the techniques. You need to learn a little bit about the cuts of meat that you're thinking about cooking. You need to learn a little bit about the cuts of meat that you're thinking about cooking. You need to learn a little bit why cooking low and slow does something different with brisket than cooking hot and fast does with a really good steak.

And you can do all of that research and you actually have a kettle grill to practice on. If you're friendly with James, say, I want to learn how to do this and maybe he'll teach you the techniques and you will go over there and have a beer, not too much, with your friend and pay attention and pay attention and pay attention. And then once you are a little bit more skilled, then I think it would be reasonable.

Once you feed your wife a real brisket that you made, then I think you can invest in an item of your own. And I bet you, you won't invest in a kettle grill. You'll invest in something like a ceramic Kamado grill, what the big green egg is the main proponent of that or some other kind of true highly insulated smoking device that will actually do what it is that you want to do and is made to do that and that would also not replicate exactly what you have on your patio already which is a grill you have a grill and may I also suggest the fact that there is something all that said I will also put this in your ear. You are in another place. You are in a weird place, a remote place, a place that not a lot of humans in the world have been.

I've often wanted to go to Madeira, which gives the name to the wine Madeira. gives the name to the wine Madeira. And I think it's a culturally interesting new world that you are bringing your children up in. And I think that's fantastic. And this world has given you the gift of its culture, right? Not exactly on your doorstep, but over there on the patio. It's given you an opportunity to make the food of that place. And Spatata is hunks of meat on skewers, yes, but it's also fish. It's also vegetables. There are all kinds of,

even just perusing the Wikipedia page, there are all kinds of interesting sides and traditional meals. To me, the idea of trying to transplant American Southern barbecue into the Portuguese island of Madeira just because you remember having a good brisket once is a little foolish. I would suggest you spend your time researching. There's a limit to what you can do over an open fire in terms of you're going to be grilling.

You can't roast. You can't smoke everything else, right? But you can experiment with marinades, with the spices of the region, with the traditional foods and obviously seafood of the region. That would be something that I think would be much more interesting and better use of your culinary self-instruction time. Because eventually, when you get to the next dimension, you won't need food anymore. Or if you don't get it to the next dimension, and you have to go home to Canada or the United States, that's a world where you can get a big old smoker and just smoke and smoke some, some big old hunks of meat that that that you can get and and really live in concert with that culture.

I'm not saying you shouldn't follow your passion and absolutely read this great book by Aaron Franklin. I love it, and I love him. But bear in mind while you're doing your research that there's a lot around you that you can learn about the culture you're in right now, not just what British James is making when he's not in his lab fabricating android eyes.

My ruling is that at such a time as you have learned to make a brisket, and you can practice in your stove too, I mean, low and slow cooking, braise a brisket, and learn all about brisket that way too. But in such a time as you can barbecue a brisket on James's kettle grill for your wife that she finds to be acceptable, you're in research mode only. Research and practice mode only, not purchase mode. And until that happens, I find in favor of Simone, this is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman

exits the courtroom. Well, Simone, that was quite a turnabout. How are you feeling about your victory in the case? Yes, my head's still spinning. I'm very happy because I do think that this has given Julian some ideas of things that he can now focus on with our own grill and if he wants, with James's help on the kettle down the hill from us. But there are all kinds of things that we didn't even mention. Things like tuna. Tuna steak is really cheap and abundant here and you can get it at this wonderful seafood market. So I think Julian's going to do great. Julian, what's the first thing that you're going to make on your new old grill? Tuna is not a bad idea. I might make some tuna or maybe some shpetada to set it off right.

I'm newly invigorated to use that grill after the judge's wise words. Well, Simone, Julian, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you, Jesse. Thank you very much. Happy holidays. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun

or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try.

Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself.

A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Well, another thrilling Judge John Hodgman case comes to its conclusion. Hey, Judge Hodgman? I want shpetada. I want to be in Portugal. And I want... Some people just don't know when they have it good.

You know, I moved into a house in Los Angeles maybe five years ago that had an outdoor kitchen which had a gas grill. Oh, yeah. I know that place. I was there. Yeah yeah and i had never really i honestly i'm from the i'm a city kid i'd never lived in anything other than an apartment had never had a grill before of any kind but certainly i thought oh what am i going to do with this gas grill you know like it's it doesn't even it doesn't even uh uh it doesn't even add a

smoky flavor to my meats um and then i was like, you know what? I'm going to learn how to use this gas grill. And it added so much to my life. This thing that came into my life completely unexpectedly, I found myself loving using it. So, you know, there you go. I feel like when something like that happens to you, as when you are presented a majestic, what do we say it was? Pagoda-like outdoor grill? You just use it, right? I think you have an obligation to use it and not complain to a podcast.

But that's me. Jesse, we have a show coming up, one of our rare live shows at the San Francisco Sketch Fest on January 8th. Now, at this moment, we are recording and the show is almost sold out. And this is two weeks ago. By now, it may well be sold out. And if it is sold out and you want to attend, I guess you're out of luck. There's no way you could possibly see the show. Isn't that right, Jesse? No, that's not right, Judge Hodgman. I hate to correct you, as you know, but there is one way that you can attend whether or not the show is sold out. If you're in the San

Francisco Bay Area and you have a case for the Judge John Hodgman podcast, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHo, MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. And there you can submit your case for consideration. And just make sure to mention that you're in the Bay Area. And if we select your case for the live Judge John Hodgman, we'll get you in. You know what I mean? We'll get you in the side door. Yeah, hang out backstage with the big shots. It does have to be a case that's going to work for us.

And if it doesn't work for us, we'll say very graciously, I'm sorry. But we would love to get as many cases on stage as possible. And as always, just pick an authentic fight you're having with somebody. Don't make one up, please. Don't get into a fight for no reason. Don't start picking fights Donald Trump style. Although you might end up becoming president. Yeah, that's true.

I mean, that's one advantage is the media attention you'll get from picking those fights. So MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. This week's case was named by Kristen Britannic or Britannic or Britannique. Or Spittada. Thank you, Kristen or Christine, for submitting that case name. If you want to submit a case name for a future Judge John Hodgman, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook and follow the judge and I on Twitter. He is at Hodgman. I am at Jesse Thorne, J-E-S-S-E-T-H-O-R-N.

There you will get our wit, wisdom and insight in addition to the opportunity to have your name mentioned on our show if you come up with a really good slash bad pun. And if you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, whether or not you live in the San Francisco Bay Area, submit it at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. Our producer is Julia Smith. Our editor is Mark McConville. And we will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Shpetada! Maximumfun.org Comedy and culture. Artist owned.

Listener supported.