Judge John Hodgman - Habeas Spiritus

Episode Date: March 26, 2015

Should Anton give psychics a chance? This week, with expert witness Carrie Poppy of Oh No! Ross and Carrie!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, habeas spiritus. Rachel brings the case against her boyfriend Anton. Rachel believes that psychics with real spiritual gifts do exist and wants Anton to visit one with her. Anton is what he calls an unshakable realist and says all psychics are faking it. They're just in it for the cash. Should Anton give psychics a chance? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and issues the obscure cultural reference.

It's our first evening aboard, and there she is. She's sitting on the throne of the stage, unexpectedly giving a rambling, grumpy lecture. I don't like tofu, she growls. I'd sooner eat a sponge. And then, try to get a workman. I've always wanted to put a little solarium on the back of my house. You know, glass. They put it on backward. People don't care anymore. The audience listens politely. For all the time Sylvia gets things psychically wrong, which she does a lot, I sometimes think if she tells you your kid is dead,

you should probably presume the child's alive and vice versa. She still has an enormous following. End of quote. Bailiff Jesse, swear them in, and whatever ghost is out there gasping at my quote, I order thee stop. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he already knows how it's going to come out? Sure. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he already knows how it's going to come out? Sure. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? Rachel and Anton, you may be seated. Rachel, since you bring this case to my court, for an immediate summary judgment in your favor, can you name the source of the quote that I quoted as I entered the courtroom? I feel like I can name the topic, but I don't know who quoted it.

I think it's about famed psychic Sylvia Brown, who often appears on Montel, but I do not, but I do not know. I mean, it must've been whoever one of her enemies is. I don't know. Whoever one of her enemies is. Maybe don't know who's... Whoever one of her enemies is.

Maybe it was that ghost that's her enemy. Was it you? It was not me. And you are not wrong, but nor are you right. You could not name the source of the quote. It is about Sylvia Brown. What about you, Anton?

For an immediate summary judgment in your favor, can you name the piece of culture that I quoted as I entered the courtroom? Is it the latest rambling YouTube diatribe by the Amazing Randy? No, it is not. And as a fan of the amazing Randy, I take exception to your description of him as rambling. Unless you mean like rambling like a hobo on a freight train. I don't mean that as a negative, but they are long. Now, hold on.

He doesn't mean it as a negative. That's correct. I'm really interested in how exactly he means it. You mean like rambling in a charming way, like an old country road? Yeah, like an elderly man with a neatly trimmed beard. Which is what, obviously, Amazing Randy is, for those

of you who don't know. James Randy, a.k.a. the Amazing Randy, was a stage magician who, years ago turned to the art and science of debunking psychics and professional telekinetic spoonbenders, like Uri Geller, for example. would be called and is often called the skeptic movement in this nation and indeed throughout the world, and the host of his annual The Amazing Meeting, where skeptics get together and deny existence of non-provable events such as mind reading and God. And I am not suggesting that I am sided with either one of these groups,

the psychics or the anti-psychics. I am rather here to judge without prejudice the case between Rachel and Anton over her fondness for visiting a particular psychic and Anton's disgust at this habit. But before I go further, may I reveal to you that you are both wrong? Your Honor, Your Honor, I know what it is. Oh, this voice from beyond beyond i wave my hands from the pulpit what is this called not the pulpit this place you're in the gallery you haven't even been called up yet i know strange spirit from beyond manifest yourself to us now in this courtroom

so that you may be named and thus we bind you your honor it's no strange spirit it's carrie co-host of oh no ross and carrie the beloved maximumfund.org podcast clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap oh hold hold for personal applause carrie this won't be worth it if i'm wrong wait wait let me just make make sure that everyone knows if you don't if you don't listen to oh no ross and carrie and you should you and your co-host ross uh investigate with an open mind uh various fringe science and and fringe spiritual movements and groups and so forth right that's right do i misspeak no you you you're not a ghost child ah earthly child. Ah, well then. So you would like to take a guess. Yes. You can't win anything, but you might as well say it instead of me because it gives me a chance to take a little break and my body is weary.

I'm 82% confident about this, that it is my dear friend John Ronson. Sometime Oh No Ross and Carrie contributor. Yes, true, from The Guardian. Yes, that contributor. Yes. True. From the guardian. Yes, that is. Yes. That is John Ronson. Sometimes expert witness on the judge,

John Hodgman podcast, writer, documentarian, and, and very well-spoken man from, yeah, he wrote an article for the guardian, a series of articles,

but this one was called, is she for real? And it was collected in his, in his book, lost at sea, He wrote an article for The Guardian, a series of articles, and this one was called Is She For Real? And it was collected in his book Lost at Sea, which I highly recommend, just as I highly recommend his next book, which has just come out or is about to come out or something, called So You've Been Publicly Shamed, John Ronson. I do, by the way, carry an amazing John Ronson impersonation. Cool, let's hear it. I'm going to save it for the end of the show

after the Max Fund Drive pledge requests. I will be the judge of your impression. That's called a tease. So, Rachel, we have Carrie here to help sort through your case. Specifically, you go and visit a psychic from time to time. Is that correct? That is correct. And what is the name of the psychic? I don't really know her last name, but she just goes by.

No, no one ever does. Okay, good. Yes, she's very mysterious. Her name is Beretta. The amazing Judith Brinkman. Well, Sylvia Brown, who is the controversial psychic that was the subject of John Ronson's essay, where he goes on the Sylvia Brown cruise on the Holland America ship MS Westerdam, a ship

I've been on, but not with them. She obviously has both names, but Veretta is not a world-famous author. Well, I don't know. I mean, who is she? Is she some storefront seer in your neighborhood of uh where do you live washington dc is that correct well i used to go to her in phoenix arizona all the time and actually she was on the local news a couple of times for accurately predicting the super bowl scores multiple years in a row you mean

she got them spot on the actual schools or did she did she spot on did she uh did she fall did she make the spread that's sports no she didn't do a range she gave the actual the actual numbers the actual numbers i looked for that footage but couldn't find it no it's interesting maybe one of her maybe one of her enemies made it disappear. Because all psychics have enemies, and this psychic's enemy is named Anton, who also comes to this court. You bring him to court. He is your lover. Is that correct?

Love. My spiritual lover, yes. Since we are dabbling in the new age on the courtroom for maybe the first time. Let's go there. Let's go there. I'm going to use the language of the new age. Is he your earthly lover? He's my earthly lover, my lover of this terrestrial plane. And Anton, how long have you guys been together?

It's been about four years. Four years. And what are your ages? I'm 27. And how old are you, Rachel? I'm 24. Oh, okay. Oh, I see. Is that a big difference? No, not at all. Actually, I have to correct that I'm 26. Okay. Yeah, he's 26. Good. We'll just put it in the record that you lie all the time. Sure. To sound older. Any other changes you want to make?

Anton is obviously not your name. Anton was lying. We've been dating for five years, not four. These are weird lies. I've been just sitting here trying to think of what reason someone would have to claim they were 27 when they were 26 all i've come up with is that he's trying to get armchair baseball analysts to think he's about to have his career year but but in the state in the stagecraft of let's just say for the sake of argument um bogus psychics not to disprove the idea not to discredit the possibility that there are real psychics for the moment but in the stagecraft of Bozic psychics,

these are the kinds of half-truths and close-enoughs that kind of destabilize what truth is and allow you to believe a prediction. Anton's doing performance art. Maybe he is. Maybe he is, or maybe he doesn't know his own name or his own age. Anton, is that really your name? Are you named after Anton LaVey, the founder of the Church of Satan?

I am not. I'm named after... Are you named after Robert Anton Wilson, the author of the Illuminatus trilogy? Nope. Well, who are you named after? I'm named after my great-grandfather. Well, was he a Satanist or a conspiracy theorist? He was a Swede.

Close enough. You see, my own cold reading kind of went pretty badly there i sense your grandfather was a satanist swede well yeah that's sort of i was thinking of an s and the vikings i was thinking of an s i was thinking of an s sure sure so rachel you you you continue to consult with veretta even though now you guys no longer, you guys started dating at an early age and have spent some formative years of your adulthood together, but you are not together at the moment. Is that correct, Rachel? That is correct. Where are you in the world? I am currently sitting at an accredited university completing my graduate degree in Washington, D.C.

Oh, okay. And what is graduate degree in Washington, D.C. Oh, okay. And what is your degree in? Public administration. So we can't use my last name on this podcast if I ever run for office. No, no, we'll keep it. We'll just pretend that you're a psychic. Sounds great. Madam Rachel.

Sounds great. And Anton, you have been left behind in what part of the world? I'm in Portland, Oregon, Your Honor. Portland, Oregon. Yes, sir. And what do you do there? I am a risk manager. I see.

Is that a job? It is. Do you have a job or are you a self-employed risk manager? I work for a national company overseeing all of their insurance programs, including workers' compensation, general liability, property liability, auto. When you say that you work for a national company overseeing their insurance programs, is this national company a group of well-dressed Italian men? It is not. Okay. Are you in a fight club?

Guess what? We can talk about it now. We don't make soap. All right. So you work in the insurance business. I do not work for an insurance company, but I deal with insurance. Yeah. Oh, you work for a company managing risk and trying to mitigate possibility of insurance claims.

That is exactly correct. I knew I would get it eventually if I just focused on picturing you in my spirit mind. You're hot. You did a good job. I am totally, totally hot. So listen, Rachel, let me understand. You still consult with Veretta even though she lives in Phoenix? How do you consult with her?

No, no, I haven't seen Veretta in quite some time, although I know that she's still employed at her usual place. I don't want to hear any more commercials for Verretta and her Super Bowl predictions. Are you seeing psychics regularly in D.C.? No, but I am watching a lot of psychic shows. All right. And what is it that you want, Anton? What do you want out of Anton by bringing him to this court? That he will go see a psychic with you?

That he will accept that you are right and he is wrong? What's going on? What is your demand? What damages do you want out of Anton by bringing him to this court? That he will go see a psychic with you? That he will accept that you are right and he is wrong? What's going on? What is your demand? What damages do you wish? What do you really want? What I really want is for Anton to come to a psychic with me and then not give me crap about it while we're there or roll his eyes. I sensed there was more. All right.

That's really because it's the eye rolling, you know? Anton, I think it's I think that it's clear that you don't believe in psychics. Is that true? That is correct. I not only do not believe in psychics, I think that they are a negative impact on society. They give out a lot of negative energy. I think that they take advantage. Affecting your lymph flow and your chi? I think that they take advantage. That's affecting your limp flow and your chi? No, I believe that they're taking advantage of people and that they end up causing a lot of people more harm than good.

I would like for you to bar Rachel from suggesting that I ever visit a psychic and order her to accept the fact that we will never reconcile our differences of opinion on this topic. But you are okay with her continuing to consult with psychics in the future? I feel like that's out of my control what she does with her personal time, but I am against supporting them financially in any way and normalizing their practice by being a willing participant in this scam. And you intend to stay together as spiritual and earthly lovers? Yes, Your Honor. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org.

And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh, boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep. That's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound.

Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real-life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world and you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyper-academic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman,

spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with made-in pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs. They're made in, made in. The Rohan duck.

Made in, made in. Riders of Rohan. Duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made in, made in. Made in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional

chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town? Just buy it online. This is professional grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in made in save up to 25% this Memorial day from the 18th until the 27th visit made in cookware.com. That's M A D E I N cookware.com.

Okay. Let's get back and let Carrie ask these people some questions about psychic phenomenon. Phenomena. Phenomena. Carrie. Yes, hello, Josh. I sense that you may have a question or two that you might want to pose to the litigants. Am I correct?

Yeah, surely. Maynigh. Please. That am I correct? Yeah, surely. May nigh? Please. That's my fancy way of saying may. May nigh? May nigh? All right. Yeah.

Please, the court is yours. Oh, well, thank you. Clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap. Anton, so I understand that you don't believe in psychics. I understand that you don't want to give them money. What stops you from just going with her, not giving the psychics any money, but just sitting there and watching and having that experience with her? I feel like being a willing participant and even as much as parking in front of their storefront lends some degree of credibility to their enterprise. And even that, I would say that I'm strongly against. So you're suggesting that people drive around looking for legitimate businesses,

and they notice businesses with no one parked in front of them, and they say, oh, no, not trustworthy. Probably just trying to take our money. Even if you're just going to buy some beef jerky at the convenience store next door, you won't park in front of a psychic storefront because you're afraid that your subaru is going to lend it credence it's a very credible car i would i would look for uh i would look at it what kind of car do you what kind of car do you drive what kind of car do you drive a nissan alt i was so close i was thinking nissan i was thinking nissan i saw i saw a japanese car I suggest, Anton, do you think it's possible that you give too much weight of importance to your physical presence in a room? Yes.

Okay. All right. We've gotten to the heart of the matter. Yes. I'm sorry, Your Honor. No, I was just, that was a judicial wow. I've never seen someone get a confession of egotism that quickly in my court. Maybe I beat around the bush too much because that's usually what the problem is.

Now, Rachel, I heard from one of the members of the staff here in the courtroom that you do think that some psychics are fake, just not all. Is that right? Yes, that's definitely true. I think, what is it, John, what is his name? Hodgman? No, no. John with an R. John Edward? No, wait. Oh, John Edward is a psychic. I don't think John Ronson is psychic. I don't think he's a fake psychic either. I think you're talking about John Edward. No, no, no.

I was going to say that I thought his critique of Sylvia Brown was actually pretty spot on because she definitely has been proven wrong on multiple occasions. And I think she definitely does make a lot of money off of what she does. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on. Yeah, you submitted paperwork to this here court where you had to list your support for your case. And you listed Sylvia Brown as a person who supports your case. Oh, really? When did I do that? Hang on one case. Oh, really? I did? When did I do that? Hang on one second. I'm looking at the brief now.

These are... Can I take it back? I take it back. You can't take back things in court. Ma'am, there are no backsies in court. No backsies. This court does not tolerate backsies. Sylvia Brown's attorneys are circling right now. I know.

In the brief, I'm given points of contention by the plaintiff. That being you, Rachel. One, a plethora of research and resources exist pertaining to the afterlife, including Vision Quest, a metaphysical bookstore in Phoenix, Arizona. Example of a book you'd likely find in metaphysical bookstore in Phoenix, Arizona. World famous psychic Sylvia Brown recounts the afterlife. This is evidence that you gave to me. This is a reading list you gave to me. Some psychics have a proven track record of success in psychic proficiency.

Rachel's favorite psychic, Veretta, on LinkedIn. You really expect me? You really expect this court to consider a LinkedIn link? Well, I thought it looked really official, Your Honor. And then the confirmation bias theory explains why the validity of psychics should not be baselessly discredited. Now, I understand what confirmation bias is from hearing it before and also from looking at the Wikipedia page link that you said, and I'm going to quote here, confirmation bias, also called my side bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, or recall information in a way that confirms one's beliefs and specifically pre-held beliefs, end quote. So how is Anton's skepticism about psychics discredited by confirmation bias. I guess I just feel like Anton's argument is that all, is that all, hang on one second, I'm getting a call? Yeah, I think it's, I think it's your mother.

I'm seeing an R. Is there someone in your life with an R? Or a T? S. R, S, T, L, N, E. Oh, you guys. I don't know. Okay. So, okay. So what I was trying to say is that I feel like Anton's argument is that all psychics, every single one of them are manipulative and they're fakes.

And my argument is that not necessarily all psychics are fakes. And I guess my point is that either... But confirmation bias would go either way because let's say Anton went with you to a psychic and let's say it were Veretta and she predicted or she gave two predictions, one of which turned out to be right and one of which turned out to be false.

The correct one would be confirmation bias evidence for you that she actually has power uh to see the future and the and the incorrect one would be confirmation bias evidence for anton to suggest that she doesn't so my question to you is very simple you believe that some psychics are phony you obviously believe that some psychics are real do you believe that the mind has powers? Yes. To read situations, minds. Tell me about your belief. I believe that there are a lot of things that we don't understand in this world. And that our knowledge is kind of constantly expanding about what we know about the physical world.

And it's impossible for us to make any generalized claims about how things certainly do or do not work. A very Fortean point of view. Carrie, you must know the history of Charles Forte. Yes, yes. And Fortean times. Fortean times. How do you say that? I say Fortean.

You say Fortean. Don't worry about calling it off, though. I think the whole business is going down. I hope the Fortean slash Fortean Times, which is a magazine, a print magazine and website based in England, does not go down because it's a really wonderful resource for paranormal type stories. resource um for paranormal type stories and charles fort was a investigator and theorizer and sort of popularizer of a lot of the kind of atlantis mythos and other you know uh early 20th century paranormal type stuff uh and his his philosophy was essentially like he can't disprove it so keep an open mind which is what this court tries to do every time. Your Honor? Yes, please.

May I, for a moment? Humane. Thank you. So, Rachel, I'm with you that we can't possibly say that psychics don't exist. But couldn't you make that claim about anything? I mean, couldn't we say, well, you can't positively say that leprechauns don't exist. So now we all have to go in search of leprechauns. Well, you know, Carrie, I wasn't going to go there. But if you're going to ask me, then absolutely. I think that I think that there are leprechauns are real. I really hope that's where that's going.

Anything to be really wise. Anything. I guess that's, you know, that's kind of the heart of the argument. Whenever Anton and I really get into it, when we're like, you know, on a hike and then start fighting about this. Like one time we went on a hike and we fought about like whether or not Atlantis was real for like three hours. Let me guess who took which position. But anyways, yeah, I guess that's kind of the that's the that's the crux of the argument. I would I'd suggest to you that there may be a second crux, which is. Would you park in front of a leprechaun's business? Yeah, maybe you could just get this psychic to meet you at like a Subway sandwich and then you can park in front of that and not feel as bad about it.

All right. First of all, Rachel, let's get down to specifics do you believe atlantis exists i think it existed you think that okay you think that that plato was describing an actual city called called atlantis that that 9 000 years before the birth of christ defeat uh was defeated by the athenians in a sea battle and then sunk beneath the waves? I think I would change my argument to say that my response is to say that it could have existed. Ma'am, can I remind you that there are no backsies in this court? Sorry. I take it back. Take my backsies back. I take it back.

Take my backsies back. If you, I, I am going to take the opportunity court, uh, judges privilege to, to directly buzz market a book, uh, by my old friend and mentor and a really funny and great writer of the John

Ronsonian mold named Mark Adams, who just brought out a book called meet me in Atlantis, which, uh, traces back all of the different theories, traces back the original Atlantis story as it was told by Plato in the Critias, and then visits all of the obsessive and interested and curious people

who are trying to find the resting place of an actual Atlantis, derided all the way by skeptics and academics, such as Anton, a risk manager. Maybe these ideas are a little too risky for you, Anton. But let me get down to the brass tacks. Aside from your 40 and wishy-washy, anything can be, even a leprechaun.

Viretta is a psychic that you have consulted. Do you believe that she has special psychic powers, yes no yes okay tell me tell me why you believe specifically has she helped you in your life in a way that will make us all go oh um you know i wouldn't say that she gave me any particular insight that i wouldn't have had my own but she definitely steered me in the right direction in a couple of ways. One time, actually, I will say, so I went to college up in Portland, Oregon, which is where Anton is. And before I left, I went to go see her like after I graduated high school. And she told me, I hadn't told her anywhere that was going i mean i told her i was just going to college she had no idea where and she told me um she she reached across the table she grabbed my wrist and she said all your friends are going to want to go to seattle but don't go it'll be

dangerous for you okay okay and then triple um can you start over sorry we lost you there for a second that was a wonderfully dramatic moment to lose her she had died right then it would have been really good radio no she didn't die in the middle of the store first of all there's no such thing as podcast ratings no i said radio can you start that can you start that reply over after carrie carrie asked you, and then? And then? She puked. What? She puked? Was it St. Patrick's Day?

Yeah, that was four years ago today. What the hell? Are you serious? She puked? This story just, this plot just thickened so much. I'm going to put all this. You're just going to let me tell my real story yeah i agree i agree i agree with rachel in this case everything here is weird there are a lot of

there are a lot of things we all want to comment on but i want to give rachel a chance to to in all earnestness tell her story so i let's all step back a little bit all right go ahead rachel okay so then when my first, when my friends all went to Seattle a couple of months into going to school, um, I respectfully declined and said I had a ton of homework to do. And then they went up there and got into a car accident and I would have been in that car. And I don't really know if it was that bad, but it was something bad. That's a good story, Rachel. Are your friends okay?

They're all fine. They're all fine. What do you think was behind the puking? Oh, she didn't actually puke. Oh. All right, never mind. I think I've heard everything I need to make my decision. I thought you guys were going for good radio. Carrie, if you have any follow-up questions,

I'll be in my chambers drafting a strongly worded letter. Back to me. I actually do, if I may. Please. So I actually used to work for James Randi, who you mentioned before. I worked for the James Randi Educational Foundation. And one of the things we did is we tested people who claimed to have psychic abilities, and

we put them in scientific conditions. And if they could show that they really were psychics, they could get a million dollars. And that prize has been offered for over 20 years, and no one's been able to pass even the first round of the demonstration. So I just, I think if the best examples of your field can't prove that they do what they claim to do, then shouldn't we be pretty skeptical of the storefront psychic, of the average person who says she can talk to the dead? Where does their credibility come from can i ask a question yeah like what do you make of psychics who work for police departments to help solve crimes and then lead the police in yeah directions that never would

have been explored before so there's actually been like some meta analyses on this. You always hear about the hits and you don't hear about the misses. So you hear about when the psychic says, oh, you know, I think the body is down near some water and they go down by the river and there she is. But you don't hear about the thousands of calls they get every year from psychics who say she was over in that cabin they go to the cabin nope not there but why would that make the news so uh the meta-analyses have shown that by and large it's no help at all and it's no better than just random guessing but for the times that it does come through like aren't we glad that we have at least someone who's thinking maybe what it is is

like thinking outside the box you know where you just have someone who's thinking maybe what it is is like thinking outside the box you know where you just have someone who's not who doesn't have their head in the case or something you know i mean right but i mean it's also possible that the the psychic calls in on the very first day the person's missing and says she's down by the lake well the police would have looked down by the lake anyway but when they do they're like hey, look, Judy was right. Well, neither of us, I hope, or none of us, I should say, I hope is going to be in a position soon to solve a murder. But rather, Rachel is deciding how to conduct her life and how Anton is going to fit into her life as she continues to believe in psychic phenomena. to her life as she continues to believe in psychic phenomena. Now, Rachel, obviously I can't believe any word that comes out of your mouth at this point because you've been so dissembling with your jokes.

I did not make that. Did she puke or did she not puke? Well, she didn't puke. I thought you guys were trying to ask me to make good radio by making up a story. Aside from the puke, which we'll get back to, as we always do, that story was true. Very compelling. Yes.

Yes, very compelling for you personally, I would imagine. Yes. What year were you going to college? 2008. 2008. And would you say that that hit, let's call that correct or sort of gasp worthy, um, semi-correct prediction, a hit or forewarning a hit? Uh, would you say that she has more in your experience, more hits than misses?

Yes. Yes. Do you feel, do you feel confident that you remember the misses as well as you remember the hits i mean i wouldn't say that i consult her often enough so that she would have a whole lot of either you know what i mean but sometimes sometimes it's more like she just kind of poses ideas for me to think about. And then they like, you know, then I'm sure some of it is like self-fulfilling.

Is it possible that you stepped away from the table at a moment there and she went through your handbag and found a picture of your auntie M saying, I'm going to Seattle soon. No, I don't think so. But you feel that she has been gentle aside from aside. Did you decide not to go to Seattle because the psychic told you not to go? Yeah, yeah, I definitely did.

You believe that she has been generally helpful to you in other ways? Sure. I mean, I don't know. I feel like, okay, so I feel like she's been a fun person to go see, but I wouldn't, like, I typically wouldn't put more stake in what she has to say than my mom giving me advice. Do you know what I'm saying? Right. While your mom is floating above the kitchen floor in a trance?

Does that happen? Then I might listen to her. But no, I would say it's more of a general, what I disagree with Anton is more of a general disdain for all psychics and not necessarily this one particular one. Anton, do you feel that Rachel's relationship with Veretta and a future relationship that she might have with a psychic, who can say, but that Rachel's relationship with Veretta has been bad for her? I don't think that Rachel is irrational and she's very smart. I just, I don't believe that Rachel actually believes in psychics. I think that she uses that as a way to not give up on imagination or creativity or wonder or fun. She's,

she's the farthest from a cynical person that you could ever meet. And I, I really admire that about her, but I think that she uses this, um, you know, insistence on quote unquote, believing in psychics as, as kind of a way to do that well whether it's psychics or not a lot of people in the world believe in things that are not provable every major world religion for example sure do you feel that rachel has an obligation to acknowledge that this is bull feces and that there is no psychic abilities and there is no god and there is no afterlife in order to be your earthly lover that's not what i'm seeking i i want her to to stop trying to coerce me into into visiting a psychic and how does the coercion take uh take uh shape well your honor when i refuse and when i make my objections to her suggestions that we you know just go for fun

or entertainment um she will you know accuse me of of being um cynical or um you know, lacking imagination, not being, you know, willing to be fun or, you know, interested in something that is unexplainable. And why, when did you, you guys started going out when you were young? Rachel was 19, right? You were... No, no, I was 20 20 because I'm 24 now. And you said you started dating five years ago. Maybe we've only been together for like three years. Your Honor, I was telling the truth when I said close to four years.

The difference between 19 and 20 is only meaningful when you are 19 or 20. After that, it means nothing. when you are 19 or 20. After that, it means nothing. When did you, I guess what I'm trying to say is, when did you learn that your girlfriend believed in fairies? I would say that it was relatively early on. She did share the story about Veretta.

And this is a pretty big rift, right? Do you feel that your relationship is tenable with this ongoing, even if you agree to disagree, you ultimately believe that there is no such thing as psychics? Do you believe in God, sir? Up for debate. All right. You're ambiguous. ambiguous okay fine uh you you are you are willing to be uh uh what's the word i'm looking for agnostic about a big deal accepted social institutions

like religion and god but willing to say, willing to be atheistic, as it were, or a psychic when it comes to other unproven spiritual powers, correct? That's correct. That's a reasonable position to take. I mean, I would say that it's inconsistent, but it's reasonable. You know what I mean? Would you like me to flesh that out a little bit?

Not really, but go ahead. Would you like me to flesh that out a little bit? Not really, but go ahead. What I would say is that I believe that there's room for mystery in our physical universe. I think that there are definitely things that are unexplained and potentially unexplainable. the psychic approach by, you know, kind of labeling that and claiming that we have the answers there. It's really cheapening that, you know, potential mystery or unknown. It's a little bit low rent in terms of universal mysteries, as far as you're concerned. That is my position, Your Honor. That's fair. At least you're honest.

Could you maybe rank the rent level of psychics, leprechauns, and Atlantis? Absolutely. I feel that psychics and leprechauns are a studio apartment with a shared bathroom down the hall. And Atlantis is a motel with a weekly rate are you kidding me it'll be one bedroom easily one bedroom made up of concentric circles rachel even though i can't believe a word that comes out of your mouth i'm gonna ask you straight up an says, you don't really believe in psychics. Do you really believe in Veretta and psychics that you think are true?

I believe that people can know things without really understanding how they know them. Yeah. I believe that some people have. Yes. Right. Okay. Yeah. I believe in some psychics.

Okay. Including. And I don't pretend to know including and i don't pretend to know and i don't pretend to know which ones are real and which ones aren't no you can't you couldn't possibly distinguish between them of course no they're all they're they're all they're all not worth parking in front of in some people's eyes okay uh i think that i have heard enough to make my decision but i would love car, since you have done a lot of research into the world of psychics

and self-proclaimed psychics. And you know a lot about what's called cold reading. I do. Do you think you could provide a psychic reading to Rachel? I think so. She's willing to play along

and tell me if I'm getting anywhere. Sure. Be as open-minded with you as she's asking us to be with her. Yes, exactly. What do you say, Rachel? Let's do it. I'm going to go into my chambers

and we'll see. I'm going to isolate myself in my chambers and we'll see if I can pick up any of the psychic emanations of this reading and work them into my verdict. Here I go. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage

years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try.

Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ugh, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself.

A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. All right, let's get to that psychic reading. And if the bailiff will maybe stand near me in the box here so you can confirm I'm not looking up anything or doing anything tricky. I don't have an earpiece in my ear or anything. Carrie's wearing a light summer dress. She doesn't have any reference materials or earpieces. Yeah, she's clean. Okay, so Rachel, tell me your birthday. August 9th, 1990. August 9th, 1990. Okay. Okay. I think I have someone actually coming through for you. Did you have a male, yeah, a male family member who passed in the last couple of years?

How old does he look to you? Older. I'm going to say like a grandfather, an uncle, a generation or two above you. Yes. Okay. And was it a grandfather? Okay. Okay. Grandfather. He is here. And of course, he's not here. I'm attached to us. He's here. He's here and he wants you to know that he misses you and he misses Muna? Mana? Moonga?

Does that mean something to you? No, that doesn't mean anything to me. Okay. And he's does his first name begin with uh a d or an f yes okay uh and it's a short name it's like dave or dirk or dick or it's dick yeah it's dick okay great um and he is your let's see i'm getting like lots of masculine energy so i'm going to say he's your dad's dad yeah that's true that's true great so dick is here so is his his wife your grandmother is here in the physical world with us yes okay i think that's who he was saying he was

missing so do you have a special name for her no no i just call her grandma oh grandma okay um and he was pop pop or papa papa okay um and did your you do you have siblings don't you don't have to tell me how many or i do yes i have siblings I have siblings. Okay. Just one? Mm-hmm. Just one. Younger. You're the oldest. I can tell because you're so sassy.

Younger sister? Yes. You're good at this. Okay. And. You might be a psychic, Carrie. So I think. Okay.

So you and your sister are like pretty similar like your interests are pretty similar but your personalities are maybe a bit different uh no I would say that we're pretty different on you're pretty different okay yeah um okay because I see you both as like outdoorsy like um I want to say at least one of you plays sports. You both like to go camping, that kind of thing. She does not like camping. Okay. Is she the one who plays sports? She is sporty, yeah.

She plays sports. Okay. And her, she doesn't have a long name either, but she has like a two or three syllable name, yeah? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. either but she has like a like a two or three syllable name yeah and she's younger than you but not by like a lot by like two years three years yes yeah okay well actually a bit more than that a bit more than that okay okay um and her name is also in the beginning of the alphabet, A through M, somewhere in there. Yeah.

That's right. Okay, good. Now, when I, this is going to sound crazy, when I picture you, I also see the movie Casablanca. Does that mean something to you? No, it doesn't mean anything to me, although I did live in Morocco for. You lived in Morocco? Yeah. Well, I'm impressed that that doesn't mean something to you then but okay well no I never went to Casablanca okay okay I'll take I'll take I lived in Morocco as a

hit but okay um you've actually have you moved like a few times you've traveled kind of like across the country a few times. Okay. And I know you said you lived in Arizona, so I'm not going to claim that as my discovery. But that made sense when you said it. Because when I see you, I think of cacti. Do you really like cacti? I do.

Yes. I love cacti. Okay. My favorite plant. Oh, great. Okay. Okay. And your sister, I really want to get her name. Beginning half of the alphabet, two or three syllables. Pretty vowel heavy. I'm gonna say Hannah?

Is that close? Yeah, that's it. That's it. Hannah. Awesome. Okay. And your father's Dean and your mom's Elizabeth. Oh, my God.

You're so good, Kara. You're so good. Yeah, I know. It's pretty impressive. You are. Are you like a person of the 21st century, like a millennial? Yeah. Can you believe it?

I just feel that from you. You know. Yeah. So this is actually like a hot reading, right? It was a combination of a hot reading and a cold reading. But it's amazing like how much you can find out about a person, right? Totally. Just with their name. So all I had was your name.

It took me maybe I'd say like 20 minutes to get all this information about you yeah we have at our fingertips so it's something to consider when someone's playing this game with you totally which actually I think makes a makes a case for why you should go visit a stranger psychic yes but if they have your name beforehand right but they don't have to they don't have to but you don't have to. But I mean, it's pretty easy to get right. Even if you just call the front desk. I'm stuck on it. Can you tell? If you. Yeah. I mean, so so be careful, like protect your name. I mean, just be skeptical. Try to control these things for yourself when you go. Totally. Yeah, I agree.

Rachel, Judge Hodgman's about to come out with his verdict how do you think he's going to decide oh you never know with these things um i would guess probably with anton what makes you say that i don't know if i made a very good case also i lied a couple of times and i think i just lost his trust. Anton, how are you feeling? I'm feeling pretty good at this, at this point. Is there any time when you're not feeling good about your chances? So confident. I think that, I think the point was, was made relatively clearly. And I believe that the honorable judge Hodgman will,

will side with the, with my request. We'll see what judge Hodgman has to say about it. Please rise as judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. So Rachel and Anton, I am agnostic. I am fully agnostic across the board, agnostic about God, about the afterlife, about psychics, about Bigfoot, about Atlantis, right?

I am 14 in the sense, like, I guess it's okay for you to believe in those things. I see no evidence of it, and I'm not going to live my life according to any laws built around, let's say, the Atlantean Constitution, for example, any more than I'm going to follow religious dictates just because you say someone in the sky says it's so. But I also accept that there is the possibility, just as many years ago, people did not believe in the idea of unseen microscopic organisms making us sick. They didn't even know to believe or disbelieve in it. So there are things beyond our perception that may exist. And so I keep an open mind. But I keep an open mind. This does not mean that I weight everything equally. And in the same way that Anton makes a differentiation between storefront psychics and major world religions. So my doubts about all of these things are greater in some cases than in others.

in some cases than in others. Sadly, as I am not in my 20s, but in fact, I'm in my 40s. The idea that there is a benevolent personality that is guiding our lives that will welcome me into a perpetual afterlife after I die has pretty much vanished from any full faith and confidence in me. I think we'll probably all rot. Sorry. And similarly, I agree with Anton that most storefront psychics and indeed psychics in general, you know, who are taking money for their predictions are liars and con artists.

That's not to say that there isn't the one person out there who evolves into a Professor X type, and suddenly we go out into a new world of super brains, or at least die at their hands, because if a new species of humans evolved that had telepathy and telekinesis, I think they would act much more Magneto-like than Professor X-like, but that's my own cynicism speaking. But I believe that probably Veretta is not on the level. That's my belief.

As for Rachel, what she believes, it's hard to tell. She's a proven liar. She lies about her age. She lies about people puking on her. And it was the puke lie that really got into me because what I realized had happened in that puke lie was not that you were a compulsive or irrational liar, right? But rather you sensed, incorrectly, but you sensed it. You sensed using your own psychic power slash confirmation bias that I and Carrie wanted you to make great radio. Well, first of all, this is not radio. This is the internet. And second of all, we didn't want you to manufacture drama in order to make great radio. I led with that. Just be honest, right? But you did it anyway. You sensed that we were asking for you to embellish this story,

and you provided a disgusting embellishment that was incredibly captivating. I mean, when you go back and listen to this, and I expect you to do so five, six, seven times in the future, that's my prediction anyway. Listen to the reaction that we all gave when you said your psychic puked on you and it was an otherworldly puke. That's the kind of lie. That's the kind of weird, specific detail that made that story feel true. More than her saying, your friends are all going to go to Seattle. I don't care whether it's 1998 or 2008. If you're graduating from high school, a bunch of your friends are going to Seattle. It don't care whether it's 1998 or 2008. If you're graduating from high school, a bunch of your friends are going to Seattle. It's just true. It's just a given, right? But this idea, this feeling, this tendency that you have, that we all have really, some more than others, to create or complete stories that you think are being written,

I think really makes it clear to me why psychic phenomenon as an idea has such a hold on you. In the same way Atlantis, Atlantis is a great story. It's unproven, but it's a wonderful story that has, depending on the theories you read about, implications for where we come from and how we share a common ancestry. It's a great story. And it's a great story that the leprechauns might exist. I'm not really sure that that was ever a bona fide thing. This is a great story that we are not mortal, that we are going to transcend into some other plane of being

after we die, and all of the pain and unfairness that we endure in this life, including the final and most important unfairness, the fact that we have to die, is made up for, right? That's a good story. We understand one of the things that Mark Adams makes clear in his great book, Meet Me in Atlantis, being published by Dutton Books at this very moment, is that one of the ways that we understand the world most critically or uncritically, as the case may be, is through stories, right? We make up stories that make sense, and we are susceptible to those stories that make sense to us in that time, right? and we are susceptible to those stories that make sense to us in that time, right? That's how we, that's, you know, all of history used to be oral, used to be stories that we told to one another because it sticks, it sticks in our mind. Stories make better sense than just facts, right?

And we understand through stories, and so why I can't explain exactly how that psychic caused that car accident in Seattle that got you, that boosted your faith in her. The narrative filling in of her into your story and her words into your story, that's one explanation for why we are susceptible to psychics saying, I can see your future, I can see into your soul, into the consoling idea that humans have that kind of power, that there is such a thing as destiny, that there is such a thing as afterlife. We love that story. that she may have given you that are far less powerful in your mind and memory as your crazy false story about the psychic puking on you will last with me for the rest of my life. Okay? So I'm not saying this to offend your disbelief or even your basic open-mindedness,

but it was something that struck me as to knowing how, if we both agree that there are phony psychics and knowing how phony psychics work, and Carrie having given you an example of how phony psychics work for profit to take advantage often of family pain in order to get money from you, that they have access to the exact same search technologies that we have that whether or not you gave your real name to to veretta in phoenix before you came in that 2008 was soon enough ago that she could have looked at your friends on facebook talking about going to seattle and come up with a thing all those things are available if not then then certainly that that that specific situation, certainly now, right?

Given that you've seen this in action, you should proceed with caution. Now, I am frankly offended by Anton's description of psychics as low rent. As far as I can tell, Anton, you want to have your psychic cake and eat it too you are open to some mysteries but not to other mysteries especially these gross ones that you wouldn't even park out in front of

it's a little I get where you're coming from and I appreciate that there are psychics who are predatory in damaging ways that are usually a lot less subtle than other organizations that promote access to a specific mystery in life like religions, right? Psychics can do some real, can really rob you blind, right? Or let's say false psychics not to offend the true psychics in the world, right? Or let's say false psychics, not to offend the true psychics in the world, right?

But even though I'm offended by the low rent, I should say that even you, Rachel, appreciate that saying that you go to see storefront psychics affects the way others perceive you, because of their reputation. You don't want me to use your last name on this podcast because you don't want to be associated with your interest in psychic phenomenon in your regular place of work. So that's another reason why you should proceed with caution around this. Now, the real question ultimately is that you're paying these people to get some effect which you term as entertainment or life-changing advice depending on what your audience is, whether it's a group of fellow believers or a group of lousy skeptics like us,

right? And truthfully, if you're paying for whatever you want to pay for, as I say, I'm agnostic and you should do whatever you enjoy, right? I don't know whether you can afford to give money to psychics. I hope you can. I hope if you couldn't, you especially would know that Anton would intervene or you would intervene with yourself. on a psychic reading and to not yell and accuse, as his ego perhaps would drive him to do, and to not roll his eyes, but just simply sit there, take it in, and act as though he has the open mind that he claims to have towards mysteries. And I would say, Anton, if that's the only thing that's being asked, and you want to continue to have an earthbound love relationship with this person, I would say you should be interested in seeing what's going on, seeing what happens in these

rooms, not just what you've read about or seen on TV, but seeing what happens in these rooms, not just what you've read about or seen on TV, but seeing what happens in this room, seeing what happens specifically to Rachel, right? If only when it is all done to provide another point of view that you can then present to Rachel with experience and having the firsthand knowledge and maybe even the proof of your position that someone who believes in psychics can never really provide. Don't be a snob about this. Rachel is someone that you care about and she's not dumb, but it's hard to

understand exactly why she's doing it, but she's not dumb. And as long as she's spending her own money, for now I see no harm in it. Remember, Anton, that you're a little bit older. She began going to see this Phoenix, Arizona psychic as a teenager. And when she was a child, of course she believes in psychics because of this. But as her understanding grows, as she gets older, as that distinction between 19 and 20 and 20 and 21 and 22 and 24 and 24 and 43, as those gulfs widen, as her experience and your experience goes on, you will all begin to understand that there aren't a lot of easy answers on either side that you can feel truly confident about. But I think the idea of you going and doing your due diligence as a boyfriend and

seeing this without prejudice and seeing this part of her life without prejudice, and then being able to talk about it afterward, is the only way forward for you guys who have such a profound and distinct point of view on something that ultimately no one can prove one way or the other. something that ultimately no one can prove one way or the other. And so even though my caveat is obvious, Rachel, I don't think these psychics are good. I don't think that they are on the up and up. I think the illusion that you found the one good one is all part of the story that the psychic is telling you. Uh, and, uh, and, and I therefore encourage you to really think not just twice, but thrice or five times before giving your money away. It's your life. It's your afterlife. It's your money. If you're not impoverishing yourself, fine. I can

only hope that you exorcise yourself of these feelings as time goes on. But until that time, I think that I must order Anton to go and sit in that room and know what's going on in there. And so I do so order it. One psychic reading in Washington, DC of Rachel's choosing. Next time you're visiting her Anton or in Portland, Oregon, depending on who's visiting whom you'll sit there. And I don't think you'll be surprised at what you see, but maybe you will.

In any case, this is the sound of a gavel or a ghost wrapping from beyond the grave. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all please rise as judge john hodgman exits the courtroom i would have expected a ghost rapping from beyond the grave to sound different like it would have started my name is ghost and i'm here here to say really spooky in a major way i was expecting a ghost puking um anton how are you feeling about this decision i am somewhat disappointed but i will uh i will treat it with the the respect of an invitation to a church on christ Eve. Rachel, how are you feeling? I'm feeling shocked, Jesse. That was a real curveball.

I thought I was going to come down hard around me. I feel like I have a huge window of opportunity now. But you see, Rachel, here's what I think. Every time I asked you right up front about your belief in psychic powers, you hedged. You said it was entertainment. You said it was insight.

You said it was a look at another point of view. Whatever you thought when you were 18, 19 years old and you went to see Vareta for the first time, you're changing and you're growing and you're not sure. I don't get the impression that you truly are sure in what you believe. Or if you believe it, you're proud enough to say it on this without hedging it a lot. And so I think that as your belief evolves, it'll be good to have a third party in there to provide you with a different point of view as you continue to evolve your belief. And I'm not suggesting that Anton knows better than you, and I'm not suggesting that Anton knows better than you. And I'm not suggesting that I know better than you. I want you to come to your own decision about what purpose psychics play in your life and whether or not they're true. But you're searching.

And I think that this is an important part in your search for what's true is to have someone else in the room with you. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, I think that's great advice. Just take the same car. We'll have to walk, I guess. Rachel, Anton, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you, guys. Thank you very much.

And thank you, Carrie, who you can find every month online at Oh No Ross and Carrie. Thank you. Clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap. I really love the self-clapping. Jesse, will you join me in a clap, clap, clap for Carrie?

Oh, guys. Clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap. Thank you so much. I was standing up. I was standing up. It's also like a clinic diagnosis. Ah! Gross.

Rachel, Anton, Carrie, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Thank you. That's it for this week on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. That's it for this week on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. This week's case named by Aurora Hannigan. Thank you, Aurora, if you want to name a future case like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. I'm at Jesse Thorne and John is at Hodgman. And remember, this is the absolute final last time that we will ask you to support this show this year. Go to MaximumFun.org slash donate to back us.

And I promised these people in this bumper episode of Judge John Hodgman, a John Ronson impersonation. And here it is. Montel Williams once asked in a radio interview why he has Sylvia Brown on his show. He said she's great. She's a funny character. She's hysterical. Now, John Ronson would never roll his R's that way, but that's pretty good. It's worth going to MaximumFun.org slash donate.

Goodbye. MaximumFun.org Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.