Judge John Hodgman - Halal in the Family

Episode Date: July 24, 2013

Stephanie brings the case against her boyfriend, Dan. Her religious beliefs bar her from eating pork or keeping it in their shared home; she'd like Dan to follow the same restriction. He says that when he's away from the home, he'd like to be able to eat what he wants. Who is right? This week, with guest Judge Jesse Thorn and guest Bailiff Jordan Morris.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast, guest starring Judge Jesse Thorne. I'm your bailiff, Jordan Morris. This week, Dan brings the case against his girlfriend, Stephanie. Stephanie's religious beliefs bar her from eating pork or keeping it in the home they share. She'd like Dan to do the same. Dan respects her beliefs, but says he'd like to eat what he wants when he's not at home. Who's right? Who's wrong? One man can decide.

Please rise as Judge Jesse Thorne enters the courtroom. Hello, everyone. Hello, everyone. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Duck, the panties are being thrown from the audience. I brought these roses for the ladies. Dan and Stephanie, please raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or the universe or just love, you know? I do. I sure do. Do you swear to abide by Judge Jesse Thorne's ruling,

despite the fact that as a child he was stranded on an island with other children and they formed a de facto society and often chanted, kill the pig, spill her blood. Yeah, I do. Thank you. Yes, yes I do. Thank you. Judge Thorne, you may proceed. Thank you,

Bailiff Morris. Sucks to your asthma. You don't have the conch. Why were all those kids on a boat together? I don't know. School trip, I guess. Yeah, school trip to uncharted waters. They were headed to Colonial Williamsburg, and they took a wrong turn.

Okay. Dan, could you please characterize for me what your beef is here with your, with your beloved girlfriend, Stephanie? Uh, yeah. So she, uh, she's a Muslim, uh, her mom's from Turkey and she was raised, uh, slightly Muslim, it seems. And we've been dating for five years and, um, we don't eat pork, but when I'm away, um, I would kind kind of like to because I don't practice those beliefs. And I don't think I should be looked down on for doing it when I'm not with her. So you want to eat some bacon when you're out with your buddies at a strip club? Yeah, there you go. Sure.

out with your buddies at a strip club. Yeah, there you go. Sure. So, Dan, did you enter into this arrangement willingly? Well, first of all, let me ask Stephanie first. Stephanie, tell me how the two of you came to this arrangement. Okay. So, at the beginning of our relationship, just like any other relationship that I've ever had, I kind of discussed with Dan that I won't allow pig to be eaten just because I wouldn't, like, kiss him or anything like that. And then also, if we were to ever live together, that we would not have pig in our house.

And he willingly agreed to that. So, Dan, is that the case? Did you willingly agree to this? And if so, was it just because she's just one foxy half Turk? Uh, a little bit of that. I didn't think I'd have a problem with it. I don't, I'm not, I don't eat a lot anyway. I'm, I'm, uh, hold on, Dan, hold on, Dan, you don't eat a lot, so it's not a problem? Well, I'm a small guy, so I eat like a meal a day. It's not normally a big deal.

That is a big deal. That's a problem for your health. More than that. Are you a carnival performer, Dan? No. I just, I don't know. I'm just not hungry often. Oh, you know what?

Maybe he's a bear and he's just hibernating. Dan, are you a bear? No, I'm not a bear. Dan, is it possible that your one meal a day is sausage, pancakes, a club sandwich, and what's for dinner? A pot roast? Yeah. A nice pot roast? Yeah. A nice pot roast with a side of potatoes and vegetables. Usually it is quite a bit when I do it.

I kind of just eat one giant meal or, yeah, something like that. Without the sausage, though. Stephanie, did you know that you were entering into a relationship with a carnival performer? No, I didn't. Is this true? Does he actually only eat one meal a day? He basically does. I mean, I guess you can count his other meal as coffee in the morning, but that's about it. When do you eat this meal, Dan? I don't know. When I have time in the afternoon or I work at a restaurant, so usually sometime when I get free time there because it's free.

I'd like to back up to this coffee thing for a sec. So you, on an empty stomach, just drink how many cups of coffee in the morning? I drink two to three cups in the morning and then usually about a cup at work. So you drink three cups of coffee on an empty stomach and then don't eat until the middle of the day? I feel like beyond this pork issue, the main problem in this relationship is probably farting. No, I don't know. I have good organ control. I'm pretty straight about all that. All right. So, Dan, you say that because you eat one meal a day, you decided that it would

be easy enough to give up pork. Is that the case? Kind of, yeah. And at the time, I thought it would probably be good for my health. Like, if I just didn't ever eat that, it'd be fine, grease-wise and all that. But considering I ate so little, I don't think that factored in as much as that. It didn't matter as much as I thought it would. The grease probably would help, if anything, put some weight on. Can you tell me your height and weight, Dan? I'm like 5'4", probably 110 pounds.

120, 110. You're 5'6". I don't know. Short and skinny. He's 110 pounds of pure farts. Empty stomach coffee farts. So, Stephanie, tell me, why is this an important issue for you? Describe to me why in every relationship you've ever had, you've asked your partner not to eat pork. Well, first off, it would be it's a very big sin for me. And so I wouldn't want Dan to be kind of a part of that either. And so I wouldn't want Dan to be kind of a part of that either. And then two, it's kind of a really big tradition, I would almost say, in our family, because my mom married my dad, who wasn't a Muslim, and he doesn't eat pork at all. So he didn't even think about it.

And then neither does my aunt. She also married someone who's not a Muslim, and he does not eat pork at all and would never even think about it. So I think that Dan should kind of follow suit, especially since we talked about it. Did your father and uncle convert or do they simply observe this tradition? My dad, I guess. My mom says he converted, but I'm not 100% on that. You think sometimes he sneaks out and reads the Talmud. And then my uncle, he also, once again, they said that he converted as well.

But I am not 100 percent either. So tell me, do you do you consider yourself to be a Muslim by faith as well as by, you know, ethnicity and cultural tradition? I would say so, because I definitely believe everything I've been taught. So tell me, tell me why you find why specifically you find eating pork to be objectionable among the broad array of Muslim cultural tradition, cultural and religious traditions you could follow? I just think it's honestly kind of gross because pigs are really disgusting in general. And it's always what I've been taught, like they're the nastiest kind of thing on the earth. So I don't even like them. Gross. Do you think other animals that we eat are gross? Because they are. No, I eat a lot of different other meat.

Can I make some counterpoints to everything she just said? Yeah, absolutely, Dan. Awesome. So, yeah, when you said she just kind of picked one thing, not to throw her under the bus too hard, but we are living together and we have been dating for five years and are not married. And also, we both go out and drink alcohol.

And I'm certain her mom is aware of both of these things. She helped us move in, so I know she knows that we have one bedroom and also has seen pictures of my girlfriend drinking alcohol and maybe has even seen her drinking. Stephanie, do you attend services regularly? Do you spend time reading the Koran? No, I don't. But I don't know if Dan knows this, but when I go to bed, like, I pray inside my head at night, I suppose, but that's about it. Just anti-burglar stuff? Yeah, I don't want to do that.

I can understand that. I mean, Dan's not much of a deterrent, let me put it that way. Well, maybe you can scare him off with farts. Disgusting, empty stomach coffee farts. Okay, so Stephanie, I want to ask you this question. I understand very clearly why you've made this choice for yourself. Tell me why you feel it's important that Dan make the same choice. Well, I think upcoming in my life, I know personally that I maybe would want kids.

I know Dan doesn't really want them, but, you know, whatever would happen. Whoa, is this the real problem in your relationship? Is this whole thing a cipher for this conflict? Because it seems like a major conflict. Dan, did she characterize your opinion correctly? No, I don't think. Well, yeah. Right now, yeah, for sure.

I don't think that's a big issue at the moment. We're still pretty young. Dan, how come you're not married? Is that on you? Yeah, definitely. You want to be able to play the field and sow your oats a little more. No, no. I just don't know.

Sorry, last one. It's just all a big to-do that, I don't know, I can't afford that. So, Stephanie, why is it objectionable to you for Dan to make this choice for himself when you're not even around? Well, like I said, like later on in life, I think I might want kids and I don't want them being confused. Whereas Dan will maybe go out and have, you know, I don't know, baby back ribs or something like that. And they might see that or hear about it. I don't want them to be confused later on and being like, well, why can Dan do this? And why can't I?

And things like that. So I guess I'm thinking later on down the road. Also, like I said, we've had this conversation before. And I find it really upsetting that he would just go ahead and do that when I'm not around. Why is it upsetting? Well, he kind of I mean, I swear he like it's like an oath that he took, you know, like he he wouldn't do this. And I mean, that's kind of one really big thing in our relationship where I've just

been like, hey, you know, it's something I would like you to really respect for me. Please go ahead and do that. And he said yes. It sounds to me, Stephanie, like this is more about him honoring this agreement that he's made with you and your wishes than it is about this specific religious tradition and him following it. I would say that is a really big part of it, definitely. I would like him to honor that. But then also, once again, it is, you know, tradition in my family and it's part of my religion where I just, I mean, it's not a gray line.

It's definitely black and white. Can he just switch promises he's made to you? Like, can you ease up on the bacon thing and just say, say, oh, I don't know, Dan, you can't watch any USA original programming. No. Why would anyone do that to anyone? Why would anyone keep anyone away from Burn Notice? No, you're right. That's just cruel.

She said it wasn't a gray issue and it was a black and white line i have a very specific anecdote uh that would disprove that we uh again early on probably closer to when i i told her i probably wouldn't eat pork ever than now uh we went out to eat at a breakfast restaurant and she wasn't paying attention very closely to the menu and ordered something and I ordered a different dish and hers had little bacon bits in it and since it was her fault she didn't ask and it was clearly stated on the menu she traded breakfast with me so she wouldn't have to eat it and it was fine with me eating it at that time so that that, uh, and yeah, I didn't get to eat the breakfast I wanted,

which when I only eat one meal a day is a big deal, I guess. So yeah, it seems pretty like a pretty gray line there. That is not a gray line. As De La Soul once said, stakes is high for you, Dan.

Um, I would just like to say though that Dan he has this really big thing about sending food back from a restaurant he's in the service industry and he absolutely hates it and I feel like that was part of it as well where he wouldn't want me to send it back

so what was I going to do with this plate of food that had bacon bits in it I'm not going to eat it at all and I don't want to waste it. So I guess kind of in spite. To God. In spite to God, she handed it to me. Dan, I think you found your loophole.

Just accidentally order bacon once in a while. I say, you know how if you're taking your in-laws out to dinner for their anniversary, you go and you catch the server over by the server stand, you know, over towards the restrooms and you say, hey, listen, my in-laws are going to try and pay for this dinner, but here's my credit card. I want to make sure that I'm the one paying for it. You could just go over there and say to them, hey, listen, here's a jug of Baco Bits. Just dump it on whatever I order.

here's a jug of Baco bits. Just dump it on whatever I order. Okay, that might be getting a little bit too creative, admittedly. Now, we do have an expert witness on the line. I've invited him onto this program because he is both a friend of mine, a wise and pragmatic man, and a convert to Islam, a man who's very serious about his faith. And I thought we could get the perspective of someone who had chosen this path. His name is Brother Ali. Hi, Ali. How are you?

Hey, Jesse. How you doing, brother? How's everybody doing? Doing well. So, Ali, first of all, tell me about when you converted and why you converted. Well, I became Muslim about 20 years ago when I was 15 and had a lot to do with the situation for religious and spiritual and also racial justice. Malcolm X was a big hero of mine at that time. And I read his autobiography when I was a kid and throughout it I was really inspired by a lot of the truths that he was telling but more than anything else by his willingness to evolve

and to always kind of reinvent himself to try to be more and more loyal to the truth that he was learning and so at the end of, near the end of his life he went to Mecca and he said that, you know, after a lifetime of saying that the racial problems in America were impossible to fix, he saw a level and a quality of humanity on the Hajj in Mecca that made him believe that humanity was salvageable, that human beings were all born with this universal kind of soul, and that we're taught these differences. And so when I read that, the next book that I read was the Quran and sought out Islam in my area.

And I ended up converting with a group of people that is a uniquely American expression of Islam. And so it's been a really unique kind of thing. I've traveled around the world studying Islam in different places. I was finally fortunate enough to make the pilgrimage for myself. And it's been a really, really interesting journey. So let's stop talking about the beauty of universal truths and start talking about eating pig meat. Right.

Before you converted, did you eat pork? I did. At what point did you stop eating pork? I think at the point that I thought that I might want to become Muslim. I wasn't Muslim yet, but I knew that I wanted to be Muslim. And I specifically remember sitting down with my family and we had we were eating potatoes and ham. And I ate all the potatoes and didn't eat the ham. And I hadn't even made a decision yet in my head.

And my parents knew that I was, you know, reading this Malcolm X book and was all about this stuff. And my dad was like, so do you not eat pork anymore? And I'm like, yeah, I guess not. And he was just like, so do you not eat pork anymore? And I'm like, yeah, I guess not. And he was just like, okay. And from that point on, you know, they tried their best. They weren't going to stop eating pork. You know, but when they had meals that did have pork, they just made sure that I got enough of everything else that was being served.

And, you know, that kind of was the kind of was the thing going forward. Ali, would you say that it's fair to say that on good days, your mama was kind enough to cook a breakfast with no hog? On good days, yeah, actually, I mean, there's a few things kind of to, to, uh, to, to get at here. First of all, um, you know, the, the Jewish and the Muslim scholars and, and, you know, there's this big freak out, this big kind of like scare language of Sharia law, Sharia law, Sharia law is really close to Jewish law. Um, they're almost identical in, in a lot of ways. Um, and both the Jewish and the Muslim scholars hold that not only is, you know, are there other, you know, scientific and medical things about pork that are kind of

unique to pork, but really, overwhelmingly, it's a symbolic issue. And it really gets to the idea of an animal that just consumes any and everything without, you know, any kind of discerning between what's good to eat and what's not good to eat. You know, they're made for that. That's what they do. But to eat that animal is symbolic of just taking in any and everything. thing. And so it, you know, people who, who live a principled life wouldn't want to just consume everything wholesale without, you know, indiscriminately without thinking about what, what are, what is good for me and what's not, you know, physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, psychologically, you know, watching movies like is seeing all this violence good for

me? You know, is, you know, is this music that's calling women the B word all the time, is this good for my brain? Is this healthy for me? You know, so it's largely a symbolic thing. And in Islam, one of the areas where they differ is that in Islam, the Quran specifically says that if somebody is starving and they're in a situation where the only thing they can eat is pork, they should eat the pork. starving and they're in a situation where the only thing they can eat is pork, they should eat the pork. And it says that the only qualification would be that you're not doing it with the spirit of being, you know, disrespectful or rebellious, but survival. Can I ask you, Ali, I know you spend a fair amount of time with the Quran. I don't know to what extent you're a scholar of the Quran. Is there anything in the Quran specifically about accidentally ordering something with

Beko bits on it? Or would that just fall under the general category of the spirit in your heart and under what circumstances, et cetera? Yeah, all actions are judged by intention. And so mistakes are exactly that. The only thing that kind of comes to mind, and I'm not a scholar, I'm a student, I'm a studious Muslim, but I'm not a scholar by any stretch. But the only thing that comes to mind is when we're fasting and we eat something accidentally, it's considered a gift, you know, that like you just get this one for free. Wait, Ali, what are the circumstances under which someone would accidentally eat something? I could chime in here. I don't know if you've heard

the statistic that the average human eats eight spiders a year. It could be during a period of fasting. You're sleeping. One of those little squirmy lowers into your mouth. It's interesting that me as a person that's overweight, Ramadan always really reminds me.

It really shows me how I go to food sometimes if I'm stressed out or if, you know, sometimes without even thinking about it, just unconsciously, you know, eating something without really not sitting down to a meal. But, you know, just kind of walking by the cupboard and just grabbing a handful of almonds without really even thinking about it or, you know, drinking something out of habit. You know, so situations like that. And so, you know, kind of hearing the rest of the situation, something that I think really almost kind of defines this period that we live in is that when substance is limited, symbol takes on huge importance because it fills the gap kind of left by, you know, the void of substance. And so I think that that's not an uncommon thing. And the problem with that, though, is that we start using those symbols in place of substance to make ourselves the center to say,

you know, this symbol of my religion is important because I am important. And this being my religion should be important to you. And, you know, also the Quran talks a lot about we were dealing with people who are of other faiths that, you know, the Quran says, for you is your religion and for me is mine. There's no compulsion, even within religion. Muslims can't force other Muslims within the bounds of, you know, traditional Islam. Not, you know, in Saudi Arabia, they do it, but the Taliban does it. But we can't even force other Muslims to pray, can't force other Muslims to fast, can't force other Muslims to not lie or cheat and rob people or whatever. This kind of moral policing idea really isn't part of Islam.

And it's really important for us to think about the way we practice our religion. Our religion in general, like any system of ethics is very vast. And so it says everything about us, what we decide to prioritize and the way that we carry it and project it into the world. So if me being a Muslim means that, you know, I'm only going to prioritize a few things. I think it's important that we think about what does it say about us, the things that we prioritize, the way that we carry, what we say we believe in, and the things that we enjoin upon other people.

Ali, have you ever, say when you were a teenager and you were converting or anything like that, have you ever asked others to consider the precepts by which you live and whether they might want to follow you in that? Look, have you ever said that you weren't going to make out with anybody if they ate some pork? Or anything that might be a corollary to that. I mean, you know, there's this old school saying among African-American Muslims in particular that say, lips that touch swine shall never touch mine. And so, I mean, that's not a new thing. And the reality is that I think vegetarians think that meat is kind of nasty.

And people that don't eat pork, after a while, it really starts feeling nasty to you and you don't want to be associated with. If you got two people that smoke and one of them quits, they really don't like kissing the other person. They don't like that smell on them. That part is really understandable. I get it. If there's stuff that we don't do, it does feel kind of strange. That part makes sense to me. I get that.

Dan? I don't like cheese. I don't really eat it. Oh, now we're on to the cheese, are we? Hold on, Dan. I've got the notes it. Oh, now we're on to the cheese, are we? Hold on, Dan. I've got the notes regarding the cheese in front of me. Bailiff Morris, would you please handle this situation?

So you'd like me to read the cheese notes? I would like you to get Dan to shut his pie hole. I'm not saying you have to use my signature catchphrase, shut your pie hole, but it helps. In my experience, it helps. Dan, cheese is a whole other issue. I think if that was the cornerstone of this argument, you would be thrown out into the street and beaten by John Kangaroo, the mascot of our

kangaroo court. We do. We should explain. Bailiff Morris is not interested in the traditional physical elements of being a bailiff. So we've hired a kangaroo in policeman's clothes. He still has boxing gloves on. Boxing gloves to take care of any violence that may be necessary in the court. And I would hate to think that you would bring violence upon this court, Dan. Dan, I don't – I know as a bailiff, it's not my place to editorialize. But you're skating on thin ice, mister, this one meal a day thing and none of it's cheese. Yeah, you seem difficult. OK.

Ali, I really appreciate your insight into this situation. Thank you so much for providing it to us. Thank you. Now, Dan, tell me about this cheese thing. All right. At the risk of being harmed by a kangaroo, I guess I'll go ahead. I don't like it. I can't, like, nacho cheese.

I can't even smell it. It's disgusting. And Steph has known this forever. Neither of you two are getting invited to any of my dinner parties. You are a nightmare couple. But, yeah, I don't have a problem with her eating it at restaurants or at home. I don't have a problem with her eating it at restaurants or at home. We have cheese, some Kraft singles or some cheese thick things or whatever in our fridge right now.

And I don't object in that sense the same way she would with the lips that touch swine, don't touch mine ideals, I guess. I can handle it as long as I don't taste cheese, I guess I can, I can handle it as long as I don't like taste cheese, I guess. So in that just physical growth, that respect, I think, I think she's kind of a hypocrite a little bit. So you're accusing your girlfriend of hypocrisy. Because let me, let me just explain this as I see it. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. She's asked you to do something out of religious and cultural conviction, which is to say not eat pork. And you have asked her to

not eat cheese because you think it's gross. No, I've never asked her not to. I was just using it as a comparison for grossness between the two of us. But I would never impose that on her because – Well, look.

I think – if you want to know what I think, I think cheese and pork are basically the world's two least gross things. Yeah. Cheese on pork? Oh, my God. You can do that. That's as good as it gets. You can do that. That's as good as it gets.

So you're not going to get far with this weird cockamamie flavor smell argument. Yeah, it sounds like you guys are just in some sort of who can be more grossed out arms race. Stephanie, obviously the cultural and religious traditions of your family are important to you. And, and obviously finding a partner who respects them is important to you. Um, tell me what is, tell me what is special about the not eating pork tradition for you personally. about the not eating pork tradition for you personally.

And tell me how it feels to you to hear your boyfriend of five years want to violate that agreement between you two. The reason I think it's really special to me is because it shows that in my religion that this is something I can't abstain and this is something that God has told me to do and this is something I can do and it's something that I want to do. So that is a humongous part about it. And I just feel that if Dan, I mean, you know, I just feel like he should be able to understand that and to understand that in my life growing, this is something that I want for my religious aspect and then also for my family growing up as well. And I think that that's something that he should kind of also live by as well. I'm not really forcing him. I'm not saying I'm forcing him to do it, but I'm just saying that he willingly was like, yes, that's something that's okay with me.

saying that he willingly was like, yes, that's something that's okay with me. Dan, I want to ask you, having heard Ali speak so eloquently about this tradition and having heard your girlfriend talk about why it's important to you, why is eating pork so significant to you that you wish to do it, even in these sort of limited circumstances? wish to do it, even in these sort of limited circumstances? I guess it's the same reason she wouldn't want me to is more of a symbolic thing. It symbolizes what low regard you hold her in? No, no, not at all. Because I do definitely respect, we religiously view things very differently, and I completely respect and I don't want to – one reason we haven't – we can't even have this discussion is because I don't want to offend her. Well, we can't personally just sort this out.

I don't want to offend her with – because I view religion and the world very differently. I'm more of a naturalist, I believe. So you're naked. Yes. You're naked all the time. I'm skeptically agnostic, very heavily leaning the other way. I grew up in a very conservative Lutheran upbringing where I went to a small private school. I was the only kid in my grade for a long time.

The only teacher was Garrison Keillor. Yeah, here's a compromise. You can eat pork, but she has to listen to Prairie Home Companion every week. I love Prairie Home Companion. I think the discussion is good to have about pork because she just sticking with one thing as a cultural thing to connect with her family. I can understand. But when I'm and I and I definitely would respect that with her and with her family. But when I'm alone or on the, you know, like in a different different area code with, you know, just visiting friends if they're having a barbecue

or something like that. I like the idea of eating pork alone. Just one half-brow brat. Dan, Stephanie, I think I have all the information I need. I'm going to retire into my chambers to consider my decision. Please feel free to enjoy the complimentary ribeye steaks we're serving here in the courtroom. They'll be served to you by our kangaroo bailiff and our other bailiff. They've been in his couch for a while.

Our other bailiff, Jordan, will be speaking to you. So, Dan and Stephanie, while we're waiting for the judge to come back with his verdict, And Stephanie, while we're waiting for the judge to come back with his verdict, I'd like to hear a little bit from you about your favorite dishes that the other one would hate. Stephanie, what's your favorite cheese thing? And Dan, what's your favorite pork thing? Well, my absolute favorite cheese thing is like the cheapest macaroni and box macaroni and cheese you can get. So like the 49 cent ones. And in Canada, they would call it a craft dinner. No, no.

KD's. That's what they call it in Canada, right? Anyway. Sorry, go ahead. We're in Southern Canada almost, so yeah. Yeah, where it's like the cheese is like a neon colored. And it's just, it's so goozy and yummy. Goozy, that's a good, that's a good descriptor.

Dan, how about you? If the judge comes back in your favor, what pig meat will you immediately shove into your pie hole? There's a barbecue place in North Carolina that I will be driving near in October that my friends live near, and I will have a huge pulled

pork sandwich because it sounds amazing. Oh, Ali, while you're on the line, maybe I can have a huge pulled pork sandwich because it sounds amazing. Oh, Ali, while you're on the line, maybe I can get a perspective from you. When you are like at a barbecue joint or out to brunch or somewhere that has a lot of, you know, delicious pork things. What alternatives do you go to? Man, I will say the number one thing at my house, like I have friends that, you know, swear by, you know, I'll never stop eating bacon or whatever. Man, turkey bacon, when you cook it well, when you cook it right, like just the regular, you know, go to the store and get the regular Jimmy Dean or whatever turkey bacon is incredible, man. Like it's really good.

Yeah, you know, I'll agree with you there. I'm a big bacon fan myself and I tried turkey bacon for the first time not too long ago. Pretty good. I mean – You have to cook it in olive oil and you have to cook it really on low heat. You have to cook it kind of slowly so that the oil kind of absorbs into it and you can't do it too – you can't be hasty about it. No, that's a great tip.

Considering what we've talked about here today, I'd like to ask everybody what they think their chances are. Stephanie, how do you think the judge will rule? I think that – I kind of feel like it's going to go in Dan's favor. Just to be 100% honest. He had like bullet points written out and things like that. And I kind of was just going on by what I believed and what I thought was right. You should have made a PowerPoint presentation. I know.

This could be very convincing. There were a couple things I forgot, but I think it might go in Dan's favor. But I honestly will just hope that he just continues to not do it. Dan, what do you think? Do you think your bullet points will win you the day? No, I think I'm pretty soundly lost. I think I'm pretty soundly lost. But I mostly was just wanting Steph to participate in a discussion about it because, like I said, we can't have it without it being like a fight.

And if I don't eat pork, I'll continue eating – drinking my three cups of coffee. So it's fine. That's a good plan. Yeah. Judge Jesse Thorne has returned to the courtroom, and he is ready to render his verdict. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please hold your applause until after the verdict has been rendered. That's usually how it happens in a court, right?

People applaud a verdict? I believe so. Yeah. I think that's how it happens in a court, right? People applaud a verdict? I believe so. Yeah. I think that's how it goes. I've given some very careful thought to this conflict. I think it's a very deeply felt and very fraught one. And after that careful thought, I find for the plaintiff, Dan. I have to say, I think that Stephanie made a more eloquent and in some ways more compelling case. But ultimately, I have to decide the case

on the merits, not on the eloquence of the petitioners. If I were deciding based on the eloquence of the petitioners, then former New York Governor Mario Cuomo would win all court cases. Very eloquent man, Mario Cuomo. He has a lot of opinions about pork too, right? Yeah. I'll tell you why I came to this finding. Ultimately, I think that it is not within the bounds of the court to compel someone on matters of faith. We all have our own paths to walk, and I think that we must each choose that path ourselves. ourselves. Now, all of that having been said, Dan, I would suggest that you not get too excited because I also have some good news for Stephanie. I don't feel comfortable offering a judgment that will compel Dan to honor his girlfriend's diet. However, I do feel comfortable compelling him to do something else. Specifically, I order Dan and Stephanie to take Stephanie's parents out to dinner at a fancy restaurant. Now, this should be a pork-free dinner, and it should also involve Dan cornering his waiter

or waitress over by the server stand, over by the bathrooms, and giving him or her his credit card and saying, don't let my in-laws pay for this dinner. Now, I understand that they're not in-laws yet, but let's be honest, they will be as soon as Dan grows a pair. Um, during this dinner, I would like Dan and Stephanie to ask Stephanie's parents about why they have made the choice to stop eating pork products when he decided to marry or date Stephanie's mother. And I want to insist here that this is not an opportunity for Dan to tell his in-laws anything, nor for that matter, is it an opportunity for Stephanie to tell her parents anything? This is an opportunity for them to ask questions and listen and give careful consideration to what they hear. Then I would like Dan to take a week to consider what he learned from his girlfriend's parents and to consider his girlfriend's position on the matter, which we heard put quite eloquently

in this court case, and then make a decision for himself about eating pork. product is paramount, or whether he chooses what his girlfriend has asked him, either out of conviction and respect for the things that his girlfriend's parents have told him, or the religious reasons that his girlfriend has outlined for him, or simply out of respect for their mutual relationship. girlfriend is outlined for him or simply out of respect for their mutual relationship. I simply cannot command Dan to change his beliefs, but I do command him to remember that all relationships, especially long-term ones, are partnerships. And so his choices in this relationship should be considered ones. So guys, a complex decision coming down from the judge.

How do you feel, Stephanie? I actually love the verdict. I would love for Dan to sit down and have a chat with my parents and just ask questions. I feel like we've never done that before. And I've never thought about it. So I'm really excited. Dan, how are you feeling about the verdict? I'm fine with it. There's a lot of steps that I have to accomplish now. It kind of feels a little bit like a loss in my win. Oh, and Dan, I just want to point out, this dinner cannot be at the restaurant you work at where you get free food.

That's fair. out you can't, this dinner cannot be at the restaurant you work at where you get free food. I know. That's fair. No discount. So are you prepared to take all these steps? Oh, definitely. I said, yeah, I swore a fake oath. So yeah, I'm good to go. I'll follow through.

Her mom did give me a book of Islam when we first started dating for a Christmas gift, which is kind of ironic. And I read that through and through. So I, yeah, I'm ready to listen to more of what they think of that. It should be enlightening. Dan, I want to also mention that I considered during this period of reflection that I've ordered you to undergo to ask you to fast during the day in the traditional Ramadan style. However, I then realized that that's every day for you because you're a crazy person who's going to die of malnutrition. And so I decided to leave that out of my decision. But if you choose to do that, then by all means,

I think that may give you an opportunity to be doubly considerate of the choices that you make. I think if I ever converted, I'd be a Ramadan superstar. I'm prepared for that. That's true, because in Islam,

someone does win Ramadan. Someone wins at the end of the holiday. It's usually former basketball star Sharif Abdur-Rahim. Unless he can dunk on anybody. Yeah. The judge has rendered his verdict. Clear the courtroom. Get out of here.

Go try and learn how to love cheese, Dan. Come on. What's your deal? He's crazy. Dan, Stephanie, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and

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is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with made-in pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made-in, made-in.

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If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-H. Hmm. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go,

call S-T-O-P-P-O-D-p-p-b-a-d-i it'll never fit no it will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-p-d-c-o-o ah we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximumfun.org if you need a laugh and you're on the go. Can I pour you guys a Mountain Dew Code Red? Thank you. Okay. So yes, Judge Thorne, Brother Ali, I'm going to clear the docket.

Here's one from Adam. Adam writes, my roommate Erica and I are invited to a game night every week at my friend's place. We live in Silver Lake, and the game night is in Culver City, which is around a 50 to 70 minute drive in rush hour traffic. The game night takes place on a weekday night, and it's really difficult for us to eat dinner beforehand and get out there on time. This evening should be fun, but it turns into a frustrating mess because we're very hungry, it's a long drive, and it takes 20 minutes more to find a parking space. Erica feels that we should

never go because it's inconvenient. I feel we should go sometimes because they occasionally come cross town for us. We don't want to be bad friends. How often should we attend game night? Wow, that's a very difficult situation. For one thing, it presumes that there are no In-N-Out burgers in between Silver Lake and Culver City, which is of course patently false. Sure. There's tons of In-N-Out burgers. Got the one on Venice. Sure. Look, there's like

six In-N-Out burgers. Sure. It depends what route you take. All routes in Southern California pass through at least one In-N-Out. If you go to your next door neighbor's house to ask him a question about your fence, you pass through the lobby of an In-N-Out. If you go to your next door neighbor's house to ask him a question about your fence, you pass through the lobby of an In-N-Out burger. Yeah, I would say if you're going to do this thing,

and sorry, I know this is your apartment, but I know the bailiff weighs in sometimes. That's how the law works. Yeah. If you're doing this two times a month, two trips to In-N-Out burgers a month, that's not too bad. Yeah.

Is it healthy? That's a good amount of In-N-Out burger to eat. Sure. Heck, you know, if you prefer some other thing, tacos. Yeah's not too bad. Yeah. Is it healthy? That's a good amount of In-N-Out burger to eat. Sure. Heck, you know, if you prefer some other thing, tacos. Yeah. Get some tacos. Yeah. You live in Silver Lake. I guess it's sort of the wrong direction to head east for decent tacos, then back

west to Culver City. California Pizza Kitchen. Yeah, CPK. There's lots of quick food options that you can get. I think that if you enjoy attending this event, I would suggest that you do a couple of things. First of all, you should find a way to travel on surface streets in order to reduce not just your travel time, but also your stress. In order to reduce not just your travel time, but also your stress.

I think that the unpleasantness of traveling in heavy freeway traffic or heavy street traffic is at least as much about being inside the traffic itself as it is about the amount of time that it takes. So I would suggest that you find a relatively traffic-less route to your destination, even if it is one that requires you to, you know, go a little bit out of your way. And second of all, I would suggest that you get dinner on the way, and if you're going twice a month, which I think is a reasonable amount of time to go, then you should be able to, you know, just whatever silly thing that you might pick up that you actually like, make it that. Be it In-N-Out Burger, tacos, or basically just In-N-Out Burger. Those are your two choices as far as I'm concerned.

Shawarma. In-N-Out Burgerers, Tacos, Shawarma. Can I say, there's this place in West Los Angeles that is an Iraqi falafel place. Their main thing is making these different Iraqi breads. And the Iraqis, apparently they eat their wrap sandwiches with a bunch of cool pickles inside. Oh, yeah. I highly recommend that. That sounds delicious. Now, do I remember what the place is called?

Absolutely not. But go there. Ali, how do you feel about this? You live in Minneapolis where traffic may be somewhat less of an issue. Yeah, no, we can get anywhere within the Twin Cities in 20 minutes. Yeah. So, I mean, it's just not even... Prince will drive you.

From Garrison Keillor's house to Prince's house to Kent Herbeck's house. 20 minutes! Yeah. We've got another issue here. Oh, this one's going to be tricky. My girlfriend, a San Francisco native, insists that one cannot find real Mexican food in New York City. She says only California has authentic Mexican. I completely disagree.

I myself have lived in Mexico, and you can absolutely get good authentic Mexican in New York. The truck around the corner from us has the best tacos in all of New York. Honest to God tacos, no Brooklyn-y nonsense. There's tacos done like in the streets of Mexico City. But she still insists, you can't get good Mexican here. The killer for me is that she talks about the California burrito. Burritos are not Mexican. Tex-Mex, yes.

Delicious, yes. But not authentic like your abuelita makes Mexican. So can you please instruct my beautiful left coast lady about how wrong she is and set the record straight once and for all. New York has Mexican food made by authentic Mexicans. Hey, viva. I just want to say, I don't know if you get a lot of fake calls or fake letters here. My board at meter's going off. I can't imagine someone from Brooklyn and someone from San Francisco being fussy about food. It just seems, I don't know, like this seems precedent-less. The weird part about it, in my mind, is someone from San Francisco and Brooklyn,

I'm listening to this program. Sure, that too. It seems so far out of our, our main markets are Duluth. Sure. Peoria. And Louisville. Sure. Peoria. Mm-hmm. And Louisville. Right. So it's weird to me that you would hear anyone from Brooklyn or San Francisco listening to our program.

Also, why would they think that I would have an opinion about this matter? Yeah, this is just, I don't know, can we just crumple this one? I mean, I guess we should probably just humor this obviously fake letter. I'm on record as not caring about burritos. It's one of the things I care about least in the world. Ali, you've you're you're a touring musician. Tell me what what your initial feeling about this case is. Well, I mean, obviously, the Puerto Rican and Dominican food is killing the game for the Mexican brothers and sisters all throughout New York. So, I mean, they're definitely pushed to the margins. But I would imagine, you know, I do know that there

is a Mexican community all throughout New York. I would imagine Harlem, if I was going to, if I was going to, you know, think of a place where you could get literally anything, I would think Harlem. I know the worst place on earth to get Mexican food is Australia. thing i i would think harlem i know the worst place on earth to get mexican food is australia they have a lot of it there because they are pretending to be california or florida like they really want to be florida and california really bad so um but i mean the the mexican food there is horrible man i can't even begin to describe how bad it is Just kangaroo meat. No offense, Bailiff Kangaroo. None taken. My flesh is sweet.

So I have a bipartite ruling in this case. First of all, your girlfriend, to the extent that she is seeking a classic San Francisco style burrito, which is a regional food, certainly not a Tex-Mex food. It is a food native to the city of San Francisco. I will say that it seems like an issue for her was the California burrito, which has

french fries in it. Wait, what? Yeah, she says the thing she wants is the California burrito. What? That's a San the thing she wants is the California burrito. That's like a San Diego drunk food. Whoa, hold on. She wants a burrito with French fries in it? Yeah, that's what a California burrito is.

I think this is really an issue of cultural incompetency, man. This woman needs to take a lot of cultural studies classes to step up her game, her sensitivity game. Number one, it doesn't say French fries, though. Well, that's what a California burrito is, right? If you're in San Diego. Yeah. Does that mean something different someplace else? There's no French fries in any burritos anywhere else besides San Diego. Okay.

I mean, possibly in Orange County, which is halfway between Los Angeles and San Diego. There may be a few San Diego-style burrito places that serve that. I don't think she's looking for it. Okay. I think she's looking for a San Francisco style burrito. Hasn't spent a lot of time in Southern California where a burrito is a whole other thing. And she will never find that in New York City. Honestly, she might as well just go to Chipotle. There are San Francisco, quote unquote, San Francisco style burrito restaurants in New York. And they have pictures of like the Haight-Ashbury and stuff. And they're horrible. It's like going to Noah's Bagels for a New York style bagel.

It's just simply not going to happen for her. So in that case, she is correct. However, I will add this proviso, which is that while for decades, the word on the street was that there was no good Mexican food in New York City. My understanding from talking to people in the know is that over the last 10 years or so, that has really changed a lot. And he is correct that the burrito as it's served in San Francisco is, you know, while it's a Mexican-American dish and is not a Tex-Mex dish, it is not a Mexican dish. It's not something that you would order were you in Mexico, wherever you were.

And if he says that there's a great taco truck that serves DF-style tacos right by his house, I believe that very well may be the case. So a split ruling. She will not find the burritos she's looking for in New York City any more than she will find great Chicago pizza or, you know, Pittsburgh grinders. That's right, right? Pittsburgh grinders? That's right, right? That's right.

This is a funny phrase to me. They put French fries on those. Sure, yeah. Or any more than she'll find a San Diego style burrito, which I had completely forgotten has French fries in it. However, if she's looking for a high quality Mexican food, both of the taco variety

and of the more fine dining variety, you know, Oaxacan food, for example, moles and such, that is available in New York City these days. Although I understand, as I understand it, you do still have to know where to go and where to look. I would, following what Brother Ali says, I would suggest that she, that the both of them just look into eating more Dominican food because it is hella good and basically

I just feel like there's no there's no such thing as too much fried yucca if you get good fried yucca like I could just eat that all day screw french fries that's how I would eat the fried yucca the judge has ruled we are closing the docket all day. Screw French fries. That's how I would eat the fried yucca. The judge has ruled.

We are closing the docket. We're going to finish up our Mountain Dew Code Reds and we're going to get out of here. Brother Ali, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. It has really been a great time having you here. Thank you. It's good to hear your voice again, man. Absolutely. Brother Ali's new album is called Morning in America,

Dreaming in Color. You can get it in stores. Ali is just, in addition to being a very thoughtful and wise man, a brilliant musician, a great rapper. So please check out that record and check him out as he's headed out on tour in the summer and fall. So thanks again, Ali. Thank you, guys.

It's been the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I have been your guest bailiff, Jordan Morris for Jesse Thorne and brother Ali. Thank you for listening. The judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of maximum fun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at forum.maximumfun.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman.

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