Judge John Hodgman - Homer Confinement

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

Tamar brings the case against her husband, Aslan. Aslan reads Homer’s The Odyssey to their three year old child at bedtime. Tamar claims that this bedtime routine is contributing to their son having nightmares. But Aslan says their son requests it! Who's right? Who's wrong?Thank you to Twitter User @therealsobreiro for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow us on Twitter for naming opportunities: @JesseThorn & @Hodgman. Or keep track using the Twitter hashtag #JJHoCaseNames.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, Homer confinement. Tamar brings the case against her husband Aslan. Aslan reads Homer's The Odyssey to their three-year-old child at bedtime. Tamar says this bedtime routine is contributing to their son's nightmares. Aslan says the son requests it. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. What'd the devil give you for your soul, Johnny? Well, he taught me to make this here podcast real good. Oh, son, for that, you traded your everlasting soul? Well, I wasn't using it. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Tamar and Aslan, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I swear. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he just busted the bonds on the mast and just went with the harpies and that was the end of that? Yes. Yes. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Busted the bonds on the mast and just went with the harpies and all that. No, that was the end of that. Yeah, that was it.

Yeah, that was a reference to... Never made it back home. Homer's the Odyssey, which is point of discussion today. Tamara Nasson, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom? It was not just me either. It was a dialogue. It was a little bit of a scene between me and our bailiff, Jesse Thorne. Tamara, why don't you guess first?

I'm just going to guess The Odyssey because I have no idea. No, that's a good guess because that's what the case is about. Yes. The Odyssey. Homer's The Odyssey. I'm writing that down. Homer's The Odyssey. What about you, Aslan? My guess is Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? The Coen Brothers movie, which I'm pretty sure is not it. And why would you guess that? is something about selling souls to the devil there i guess and it's also kind of a version of the odyssey in some form so oh right yeah yeah i was just gonna say you wouldn't guess it because a brother where art that was kind of a pastiche of the odyssey right because the george clooney

character is trying to get back home and is yeah menaced variously by sirens and a cyclops in the person of John Goodman. But you did say that. Because if you had not said that, I would have said you were wrong. I did say that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's an afterthought.

Yeah. I wish you hadn't had that afterthought because I got to make you wrong somehow when you're right. Wow. I cannot believe it wow who is the dialogue between the fact that you made that connection off of selling selling of souls rather than the odyssey part it's an advanced mind i will tell you what that brought to mind there's that please do i'd like to i'd like to know how this brain works. Yeah, who wants to be a millionaire at this thing? Tamar says, I don't think so.

You don't want to know. So I was thinking of the scene where there's this musician on the side of the road, and that's supposed to be sort of a throwback to this musician who's sort of a legendary musician. I can't remember his name. A legendary musician. Can't remember his name, you say. Wow. Can't remember his name, huh? Can't remember Robert Johnson. It sounds like you're wrong. Robert Johnson. Exactly. No, it's too late. You're already wrong.

Actually, do you know what, Jesse? Sorry about this. Aslan, you're also wrong. It's not Robert Johnson. It's Tommy Johnson. Robert Johnson is most famously associated with the myth that he sold his soul to the devil. To play guitar. At the crossroads to play guitar, to play the blues. But the character in the movie was played by actual blues musician Chris Thomas King, is based on Tommy Johnson, who was also an originator of blues music in the early 20th century, and came up kind of after Robert Johnson's death, about 20 years when he was being rediscovered, was a misappropriation of the Tommy Johnson legend and putting that on Robert Johnson. In many ways, you're absolutely right. It is from O Brother Where Art Thou?

It is because O Brother Where Art Thou is based in some ways on the Odyssey and has a lot of echoes of that story of Ulysses trying to make his way home. And indeed, George Clooney's character is named Ulysses Everett McGill. But also you are right that the bargain for the soul story is associated with Robert Johnson. But you're wrong, Aslan. You're wrong about the original blues man who sold his soul to the devil at the crossroads. That was Tommy Johnson. I appreciate the elucidation. That was unbelievable.

It was Bart Simpson. He sold it for $5 to Milhouse. I have to say it's a terrific movie. And Chris Thomas King is a terrific musician. You should check out his music. As well as the historic music of Robert Johnson and Tommy Johnson oft overlooked by Aslan in this case. I had to say, you got it. You basically got it right.

You win this one pretty much. And I really had a, I really had a worry that someone was going to get this one. Then when Tamara said the Odyssey, I'm like, I'm home. I'm home free now. I never percent wrong. Never get your cultural references. And today of all days that you would get it. Great.

I'm going to hear this case anyway because it's that real teeny tiny loophole that I found. But you deserve congratulations. Thank you. So which of you comes to seek justice in this court? I do. And Tamar, what is the justice that you seek? So I believe that Aslan needs to be a little bit more careful in what he reads to Isaac, who is our three-year-old son. I know that Isaac really enjoys gory things and creepy stuff. But I think that we should be careful on what we're reading to him

and also what we're showing to him because this Odyssey book is a graphic novel and it is quite graphic. So Aslan is reading a graphic novel version of the Odyssey to your son Isak, correct? Correct. Yes. And what problems, what damages is this causing to your son? He has been having nightmares. So he wakes up in the middle of the night having nightmares,

very graphic ones also about polyphemus and the stabbing of his eye or being drowned in this, what's it called? El Remolino. The whirlpool. The whirlpool. The whirlpool called Charybdis in the Odyssey. Yeah, it's a whirlpool. Yeah, he's been also talking a lot about death

and about the day that he's going to die or if we're all going to be in the underworld and things like that. You're saying it's gotten him creeped out a little. Yeah, I mean, he's enjoying it and he's really into it. He doesn't seem too scared by it, but I think it might mess him up. But you're saying he's waking up in the middle of the night saying, I'm dreaming of a cyclops. Does he believe that he's a cyclops who's being stabbed in the eye or he's got a, like, or it's just the image itself? It's a horrifying image. Yeah. So I think he's being creative in his dreams as well. The other night he woke up and he told me. Children are never creative, even when they're awake, never mind in their dream life.

I'm afraid I have to question your veracity, ma'am. No. So what are his dreams like as he describes them? So he was dreaming that we were, the three of us were together. And Isaac cut off Aslan's leg. He put apples on it and ate it, and then I just put another leg on Aslan. Let me ask you this. How do you know that that was inspired by The Odyssey and not that one episode of Daniel Tiger?

one episode of Daniel Tiger. Well, if you see some of the images here, you're going to see some legs, some blood, the cyclops eating some of the sailors. So I could say that it was related. But there are other dreams that are more related and maybe less creative. Aslan, you don't dispute that this graphic novel is causing some pretty graphic nightmares, it would seem to me.

Yes, I do not dispute that. In fact, I am very... I will not say that I'm happy that my son is having nightmares. Mission accomplished. That's exactly what you wanted. I got you. Cha-ching!

But there was that one night when like i was somehow the odyssey had gotten into my dreams and he woke up and he came to my bed and like i was like i was dreaming that i'm i'm writing a dissertation right and i had this dream and like with my therapist i talked about my dissertation and like how it feels like the ocean and so I was like Odysseus in this dream and I was like swimming through the waves and like suddenly I sort of got a handle of the waves and I was like you know surfing the waves even though it was like it seemed impossible to master and I was like this was such a revealing dream for me whatever and then suddenly Sack shows up in the in the room and he

says you know i've been having this nightmare about haribdi haribdis which is this this uh this whirlwind uh whirlpool sorry that that that is about to swallow uh to swallow jesus in at some point and so i sort of felt uh an extraordinary father to song connection at that moment. And so, yeah, I think, you know, whereas I am sort of presenting this, you know, you know, I'm sort of celebrating that he's having nightmares in a fun way, but, but I really believe that it is sort of, it enhances my connection with him in, in him in very substantial ways. And I don't know, that moment was very meaningful for that reason, even though it's kind of selfish. Well, I mean, reading with your child is a very bonding experience.

But you're saying it's going even further because you're sharing a dream life together. You're both terrified in the middle of the night of drowning in a dream life together. Right. You're both terrified in the middle of the night of drowning in a whirlpool together. Right. That is a bonding experience, I suppose. Let's take a look at some of the pages. You sent in some evidence to Mark, correct? Yes, we both did.

And these images are probably copyrighted, so I don't think we're going to put them up on our Instagram page. What is the name of the book, though? We might as as well plug it because there might be other parents out there who want to give their kids nightmares. So it is the Odyssey, a graphic novel adaptations by Gareth Hines. How do you spell it? H-I-N-D-S. Oh, okay. The Odyssey, a graphic novel. Okay. By Gareth Hines. All right. Yes. Maybe, Tamar, you can describe the images that you submitted.

The first seems to be, well, I'll let you say it in your own words. So the first, there's a couple of images there, but one is many of the sailors are grabbing this very large stick and sticking it into Polyphemus' eye. And Polyphemus is the name of the Cyclops in the story. Correct. Yeah. He seems to be in a lot of pain. Polyphemus means literally many storied or many songed, many legends told about him. It means many storied,

but only one eye, only one eye. Cause he's only got one. He's a Cyclops. Correct. And the sound effect, how would you, how would you describe the sound effect?

I mean, make the sound effect as they stick this burning piece of wood into polyphemus, polyphemus is single eye. You do it. Go ahead. Whoa. You're telling me. All right, I'll do it. That's eye. You do it. Go ahead. Whoa, you're telling me? All right, I'll do it.

That's fine. Look, I've always lived to be a Foley artist. Here we go. Like a burning hissing. Yes. Was that appropriately gory, Tamar? Or would you want me to take it up a notch? I'm happy to do multiple takes.

John, I have a contribution. Would you mind doing the stick in the eye sound? Sure. Oh, that's my friend, the cyclops that I just stabbed in the eye with a burning stick. That's gory enough for me. That's gory enough? Or do you think that it's, when you imagine it, or when Isak imagines it, it's more gory? Because we can go harder into it. You heard how Jesse and I recited that scene earlier. We're really good actors. Yes, I was on Archer. Just give me one more for me, okay?

Jesse, are you cool with that? Yeah. As my scene partner? Yeah, that's great. I, Odysseus, will now stab the Cyclops with my burning stick. Oh, no. Oh, that horrible smell.

The eye goop rolling down his sad cheek amidst his tears. Perhaps I have done the wrong thing. Oh, they said they told me that cyclops didn't cry but i guess i had it wrong maybe i shouldn't have judged this graphic novel by its cover so i am no man that's what he says to the cyclops i had one eye now I have no eye. I am no man and you are no eye. Well, if you go further down in the evidence, this one I submitted, you will see afterwards at the end of the episode, he is crying out to Poseidon, the Cyclops that is, he's crying

out to his father, Poseidon. Say his name, will you please? He's not just the Cyclops, he's got a name right polyphemus is crying out to his uh to his father poseidon uh for vengeance uh and he has like this bloody uh so he's this angry face and blood is coming out still out of his eyes out of his. Are you trying to help your case or sink it? This is a grim image. Yeah. Yeah. And here's his monologue, if I may. I'll say the monologue of Polyphemus. Today I'll be auditioning for the role of Polyphemus, the blinded cyclops.

I've already been replaced. Oh. Poseidon. Oh, you know what, Jesse? You're right. I really wanted to do this one, actually. You want to do it? Okay. No, I'll allow it. I'll allow it.

That sounds great. So you can see how it sounds like when we're in bed, right? But I am Poseidon's son. Hang on. Before you start again, just take a moment, center yourself, okay? Just take a second. We're here to support you. We want you to do a great job.

Yeah, that's right. We just want, you know, and, you know, center yourself, breathe from your diaphragm. Go ahead. Now you're ready to perform. I am ready. Whenever you're ready. We're all watching. But I am Poseidon's son.

You want to take that again? You want to just take it again? Just go from the top. You want to take that again? Odysseus of Ithaca. Let him never reach his home, or if the other gods declare that he must, let him come late after long suffering with all of his comrades dead, and let him find trouble waiting for him at home. Very nice. I can't wait to show it to the director. That's terrific. How did you feel about it? Great. Honestly, we are in this studio recording and I've never heard like my voice sounds honestly so sexy. You know what? I absolutely agree with you. Thank you.

Thanks Tightrope Studio in Chicago for making Aslan's voice really boom in the part of Polyphemus the Cyclops there. And, I mean, look, I got to say, Polyphemus really tried to have his cake and eat it too here with his wish. He's like, make sure that Odysseus never gets home. Or if he does, make sure he has a hard time. That's part of what I want out of this case. What is it that you want out of the case? Well, either that as Lance starts editing some of these stories or choosing more age-appropriate versions of the Odyssey or any books, or that if he continues, he's the one that has to wake up

with every nightmare. I see. Okay. Before we get into the division of labor aspect, which I would like to, I will note that not only did you submit this piece of evidence of Polyphemus's sort of wishy-washy prayer, which of course came true in one sense because Odysseus did have a lot of trouble getting home. And there was trouble waiting for him at home. There were a bunch of suitors trying to get with his wife. Penel penelope is that right penelope yeah penelope and she's like i'm not gonna marry any of you till i finish knitting the scarf or whatever and uh that was the that was the first time in recorded literary history of a woman knitting to not talk to a man was very important. Scarf has never been finished in my house. Anyway. John and his wife love each other a lot.

I've seen them together. Yeah, I know. And she's a whole human being in her own right who deserves to knit whatever she wants. Now, when you're talking about knitting, you got to talk about my mother-in-law. Oh boy, here we go. Now, when you're talking about knitting, you got to talk about my mother-in-law. Oh, boy, here we go. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join, and you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning, causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel.

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And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans?

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And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town? Just buy it online. This is professional grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit MadeInCookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N Cookware.com. Aslan, you also submitted other evidence, including the very same picture of Polyphemus getting stabbed in the eye with a burning brand that Tamar submitted. Why did you submit the same image? And what does it mean

to you? And what does the Odyssey mean to you that you want to share it with your son? So I think this image actually speaks to what I think is a lot of the value here which you know you pointed out that at the end of that uh episode when odysseus and his sailors finally escape they do so by duping uh polyphemus and and odysseus says that his name is no one right and and through that uh through that ploy he he's he successfully gets gets out of there so you know and what in on the one hand it's like great plot like it's just like very it's just very finely crafted plots and then but here like in the case of polyphemus like my son like isaac asks me when when we started reading this episode, as kids often do, well, is he the bad guy and why is he bad? This is a recurrent question of his, why is he bad?

And I feel like often in stuff that we see, especially in television, it's like, well, well you know he's the bad guy just because he's the bad guy right but here like you really have a kind of um double side two sides to the to the story right and and you can see here like he's he's in this position of of his son himself who's been injured and who's you know even, even, uh, even though you have the sort of, you side with the hero, right. Of the story and you want him to get home at the same time, you get to understand and I get to, to, to communicate to Isak that this is part of, you know, the complexity of life as well. That's that everybody has, That everybody has a story of their own and motivations of their own.

And I think for that and many other reasons, it's a very powerful book. So on the one hand, you're teaching your child the best way to blind a cyclops, which is wait till it falls asleep and stab it in the eye. So something practical. Something practical there. Philosophical as well.

But somewhat more deeply, you're teaching your child that at any moment someone can sneak into your cave and hurt you. And your father, Poseidon, will not be around to stop it from happening. And you can be hurt. I can see how these messages might work. Aslan, would you say that if someone put a burning stick into Isak's only eye, that when they got home, you would make sure they had a bad time? Yeah, I would. I definitely would. I think the other element is that, you know, there is like the one eyed monster. There's also like this sort of fantastical quality to this episode that we're like, it's part of that reason that it I'm communicating to you probably now is I'm, I'm actually thoughtful about how, what, what kinds of things I expose my son to. But I, like, I would never read to him the last episode when Odysseus goes back to his home and finds the suitors and, you know, slays them.

And it's like sort of a butchery. And that's really, I don't know, slays them and it's like sort of a butchery and that's really, I don't know, horrible. But in this case, I don't know, it's like that element of like, you know, it's like the monsters and, um, you know, like you go around, we're here, we're here recording in Halloween day actually. And, uh, you go around streets and you see stuff that is probably as scary as this, you know, dragons and all sorts of monstrous creatures. And they're interested in that, the kids. Like yesterday, Aslan and Isaac were taking a walk in the park and they saw some like skeletons coming out of the ground, you know, as Halloween decor goes.

And Isaac asked Aslan if when we walk on the grass we're stepping on dead people um and aslan's response was uh yes and um were you walking through a cemetery you just believe that they're just you know our garden the curve yeah are you just speaking more holistically about how the fact that we that we metaphorically and literally the ground is full of the remains of our ancestors right okay without that explanation so my point is i think he should be more thoughtful throughout but i was thoughtful in my next response because he asked if the dead felt pain when we stepped on them, and I said

no. And then did you laugh maniacally? And then did you spend the afternoon in the graveyard dancing on some graves with your son? They can't feel anything. All right. Aslan, this is a very beautiful book. I'm looking at the pictures.

It certainly appears to be an adult adaptation of this story. of this story. Why did you choose this bloody face version of this classic tale when there were probably, look, there probably aren't any targeted at three-year-olds, but maybe at eight or 10-year-olds. So we were in Iowa of all places. I had officiated a friend's wedding, and I just want to throw that in because I'm very proud of having done that. Good job. Yeah. And then we went to a wonderful bookstore in Des Moines called City Lights, and we went to the basement. They had like this beautiful children's section and uh and is actually actually went up to this book and he started browsing and he started

looking at it and of course you know i i like a classic an ancient literature and i was like oh yeah like this is you know great So when you're a parent, it's important to find things that you like also to share with your children because sometimes, you know, some of the stuff that you have to watch or read to them isn't very interesting. I love Dora the Explorer. I love it. Why would you suggest that I don't love it? It's not a trauma response. I love it. I agree that Paw Patrol are on a roll backpack backpack backpack backpack i'm the bag that's loaded up with things and knickknacks too anything that you could want i gotta hear for you backpack actually i do love dory the explorer

because i just i just thought i love how that backpack sings it with that i don't know i don't know the musically how you would say but the beat is really funky in that backpack it's really offbeat i really love it you do sound a bit traumatized and no i love door of the explorer it's great it's great show i don't even know what you're talking about i really love it i can't think i can't think of a i can't think of a piece of a piece of, Oh yeah. Okay. I don't want to upset anybody. I was gonna say, I can't think of a piece of children's culture that I accidentally ingested because my child or one of our children wanted to watch it and I just couldn't stand it. I had to white knuckle my way through it. If you were to ask my wife, who's a whole human being in

her own right, she would say Caillou. Caillou was not tolerable for her. And I see Jennifer Marmer nodding in the background. Spidey is one of the things that I detest. Spidey? Yeah. Spidey man? Spidey man? Have you seen it?

No. Never heard of it. It is like a toddler version of Spider-Man and his friends. They're all like little kids, but there's Hulk and there's the, I don't know their names, but they're really, really annoying. something that not only he can enjoy but is actually you know emotionally complex and you know aslan you mentioned that this was a story with like a good plot and i agree with you i think this thing's going to be a classic someday it's a meaningful you know it's been it's been around for a long time and i certainly i feel like i encountered these stories when I was a relatively young person reading my Dolaire's book of Greek myths or whatever. Shout out Dolaire's. So what would you prefer that Eslan read instead? I mean, I love that my three-year-old can teach me about Greek mythology and he has.

And I think that that should continue. I just think that it should be more curated and less violent. Maybe some episodes can be, you know, not edited out. Well, you mentioned also, if I may, that when Isak wakes up in the middle of the night, you go to him. Is that your job, typically? No, it is both our jobs. And Aslan has really done a good job of getting up with him in the middle of the night. I'm just saying it should be completely his responsibility if he keeps on giving him the nightmares.

Right. So let's say now it's 50-50, you would ask that it's 100%. Yes. Have he had nightmares before this book? Or is this solely attributable to the book? I mean, obviously every kid has nightmares, but have they changed in quality, Tamar? Yeah, I think maybe when he turned three,

he had a couple of nightmares but i can't remember what they were but um he wasn't having nightmares but i will say that he's never been a good sleeper so it's always been like our one issue with him so you know once he started sleeping kind of better giving him nightmares is not ideal. What is his bedtime routine? He takes a bath and then he has some fruit while we read him books. He's really into the books. What are some of the other books that you like and that he likes too?

It rotates. there books that you like and that he likes too um it rotates he's been really into some uh cat cat in the hat books we have some in spanish uh that he really likes there's another one that's i feel like it's kind of violent too it's the worst woman in the world but in Spanish you know the cat in the hat is kind of a jerk yeah cat in the hat is a monster talk about a monster it's a very one-sided

portrayal of a monster you don't get a sense of the cat in the hat's humanity he's just an agent an abusive agent of chaos as far as I can remember but the series the series is great there's one uh actually in the in the piece of evidence that i i don't know if tamar submitted this or i did but there's uh he's choosing among the different uh can the hat uh series books and the floor and there's and there's one that says Sam and the Firefly. And that is just my favorite book to read to him.

It's such a wonderful. And it's not, you know, by Dr. Seuss. The cat is not there. Yeah, the cat is not there. Right. So it's not a fair qualification, but it's just a wonderful book. It's obviously published under the Cat in the Hat book's imprint. Right.

But it's not a dr seuss book what is what is it about um it's about a uh the friendship of between a serial killer an owl and an owl and a firefly who find each other it's about police and, but really it's a story about how the city of Baltimore is a kind of reflection of a grander dysfunction. And that all institutions basically grow until they are corrupt and serve only themselves. Yeah. But there's this one guy, this one criminal who's really fun. Right. And that's the plot of The Farmer in the Dell.

Yeah. I noticed also in this wonderful photo that Isak is wearing Spidey pajamas. Yes. Spidey jammies. Has this taken over your life, Tamar, Spidey? It has not. We have really,

I think I've done a good job of avoiding it and pushing him towards Bluey and Snoopy and some other things. Tamar, also there's a photo of some cake here. And what is this pertaining to? Yes. So that is the Day of the Dead bread that we are making at my bakery now for Day of the Dead. And it was one of the things that happened this last week when I brought the bread and I told Isaac that it was the bread that we eat during Day of the Dead. And he said, oh, is that the day that I'm going to die? And so he has a lot of questions about death.

Well, first of all, it looks delicious. And you have a bakery in Chicago? Yes, I do. Go ahead and say the name of it. It's Masa Madre. It means mother dough. It's a Mexican Jewish bakery. Fantastic.

And this Day of the Dead bread looks really, really delicious. It's good. Day of the Dead bread looks really, really delicious. It's good. But, you know, look, isn't the Day of the Dead supposed to be about ruminating on death to some degree? I mean, really, this is a pretty provocative cake to bring into your home if you don't want your son to be thinking about death. It is. And I actually, I think it's good that, you know, there's a conversation about death and that it's not like a taboo thing. And, you know, whenever a close death will happen in the family, I feel like it will be easier to explain maybe.

But I just don't want him to be, you know, obsessed with it and with gory details. with it and with gory details. Have you done any research into how developmentally appropriate it is for Isak to be ruminating on death in this way? I have not, but I have talked to other parents who think that this is an age where they start to get obsessed with death. Right. And I guess really, have you ever asked Isak, either one of you, do you, you know, this book seems to be giving you some nightmares.

Should we take a break from it? Has that ever come up? He did say the other day, right? Yeah. So I asked if he wanted me to read the Polyphemus story and he said, no, that gives me nightmares. so I don't want that tonight. What are we even doing here, Aslan? What are we even doing here?

But yesterday I asked again, and he seemed to open to the idea. Open or browbeaten. He seemed to open to the idea. Open or browbeaten. So when was the last time you read it to him? Last week. Okay. So a few days ago you said you want to do it tonight. He said no thanks.

And then yesterday you said do you want to read it tonight? And he seemed open to the idea what did he say exactly do you recall yeah he said sure but then the book wasn't wasn't at hand because we were we had it downstairs to get it ready to bring it over to the studio so we could show it to you guys so it just wasn't uh just wasn't at hand right and uh and you know, it will live in that studio forever. Probably if I, if I rule in Tamar's favor, it's going to become a permanent fixture in the abandoned books and magazines pile. That's good. I can save it for his 13th birthday. You say that you found it in a, in a, in the kids section of the bookstore in Iowa. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, I guess it was, to be fair, children slash young adult section.

I'm going to say that the images are a little haunting. They're very beautiful. It's a really beautifully made book. beautifully made book yeah it's beautifully illustrated and the one that i stopped reading to him after i realized well this is like and when when when they go into the underworld um they have to give the ghosts uh the ghosts have to drink blood in order to speak and you know they're sort of ravaged they they just need the blood, right? And so they come up to this pit where Odysseus has poured some sheep blood and they start drinking from it. And yeah, I thought maybe that's too much. Judge Hodgman, that was one of the first historical examples of Dracula's being able to have any job.

I don't know what you're talking about. How do you as parents handle other violent images or provocative images on television or in movies? I mean, he's three. He's watching some form of Spidey. I presume that there's no real violence there. Does this come up in any other media? Yeah, I think it's something we really try to avoid. I mean, on the one hand, he is obsessed with Nightmare Before Christmas.

He's dressing up as Jack Skellington tonight for Halloween. And, you know, he likes all the skeletons and the things happening there. But I don't think it is a violent movie, most of it. But in general, we really avoid violence in TV. Or maybe not violence, but scary things. You know, scary things. Yeah, he really likes scary things, you know, scary things. Yeah, he really likes scary things. I think I played for him Home Alone once, and he's really into that movie.

Maybe also not age appropriate, but he really likes scary things. Well, I mean, it's a fantasy, you know, that all kids, I think, play with is what would happen if mom and dad weren't here. It's a terrifying fantasy in some ways. And the reason I haven't seen Home Alone since then, I suppose. But like maybe I'm making too much of Home Alone. But it's like, yeah, this is a dream come true and a nightmare at the same time. Like you, it would be terrifying if your parents weren't around and that inter that intersection of horror and fun is a lot of the time where comedy comes from the contemplating the,

the thing that scares you the most either can provoke, you know, a scream or a laugh. Have you, do you do any Maurice Sendak in your house? Like Where the Wild Things Are? Yeah. Yeah, he likes that. Yeah, I'm not surprised. It's a scary book. It's a very scary book about that very thing.

In fact, not a lot of people know that Home Alone is based on Where the Wild Things Are. It was the first adaptation of Where the Wild Things Are. Uncle Buck is actually based on In the Night Kitchen. That's exactly so. I'm Mollie Russell's wart. That's a deep cut from Uncle Buck. Boy, that's a good movie.

I mean, at least I remember it being funny. I don't want to vouch for any movie that I haven't seen in 25 years or whatever. So we know what Tamar would like as an ideal ruling here. That would be for you, Aslan, to research before reading books to Isaac. Look at it, make sure it's appropriate. I guess in consultation with Tamar, right? Wouldn't you say, Tamar?

Yes. Because clearly I have no sense of what's appropriate. I mean, Isaac is a very, I would say he's a very bright kid. And I feel like sometimes he fools us into thinking that he's much older than he really is. So I think it makes it easy for us to push things that are not appropriate. Tamar, how would you characterize what is appropriate for Itzhak at his age? I don't know. Things that maybe when we read to him or he watches the question that he has, we are somewhat

okay answering. I don't know. okay answering. I don't know. I think it's hard, but I think just violence is not eating humans and

lots of blood maybe is not. No humans eating humans or just anyone like if it was a lion or a tiger, would that be okay? Something that in the real world would want to be human. Yeah, maybe humans eating humans. So when Isak has questions about the story, like, is he a good guy or a bad guy?

How do you handle those? How do you answer? I try to explain in the simplest terms possible very often tamar will laugh because i go on in a in an elaborate explanation and he's just like he's lost me in the um complexity of good and evil in this world is not a question that can be answered straightforwardly we have to consider that the experience of poor polyphemus is also uh you know individual experience and he's the son of Poseidon himself

did you say I can have another candy dad what's the best train how do planes fly let the record show that Aslan took out his dissertation are you actually able to resolve those questions with Isak or do those explanations float past him? Often they will float past him, but often I am able to get something through. Like, you know, in this case, you know, something terrible also happened to him.

And he also has a father who's angry. And that is why Odysseus is having so much trouble coming back. Not because the forces of evil are against him, but because the father loved his son as well. And that I think I got through for instance in that case and um yeah but it's hard yeah that's that's a hard question too those are those are hard moments and i think more often than not i totally flunked the test sorry i didn't hear that i was trying to think about what the best train is would you feel differently if uh if this were not illustrated if if aslan was simply reading an adaptation of or the actual odyssey yes i think so

um i remember having watched a movie about the od when I was young and that was animated and I don't feel like it gave me nightmares at all. It was probably very edited for kids, but I'm sure there's other versions that are less violent. pictures at all. You know, a telling of the story where the picture is only in the mind's eye as opposed to burned into your son's eye like a burning stick. Yeah, I think that's worth exploring. Eslan, if I were to rule in Tamar's favor and suggest that you put this on the shelf, how would you feel? What would you be missing? I don't know. That's a hard question to answer. Since I think the overall meaning of the book for me

has to do with the whole structure, right? It's the whole idea of coming back home and the role of pain, of personal pain and experience and bravery. Those things sort of come out only if you really do read the entire thing. And I don't know, I guess I would be, I would be okay. I would be.

Have you not finished? I mean, there, you said that there are certain sections you wouldn't read to him anyway. Yeah, no, I, we just come back. We just come back to the same episodes. The same, right. So it's not as though my ruling is going to affect whether or not you finish the book. You have effectively worked your way through it at least once. So it's a question of whether you would revisit it.

But not with him, though. I haven't worked my way through the book with him because it's pretty it's pretty long so i would i would actually need a more age-appropriate thing to work my my way through uh so you still have more that you want to read to him of the book i'm just clarifying that oh yes yeah i see what part is left you've already done sylla and charybdis you did the polyphemus you you said you skipped the part where he comes home and and uh uh swords to death all of his uh rivals for penelope's hand that's the end isn't it isn't there is there more this really is an odyssey how much more is there of this book um there's um i mean yeah there, there is the beautiful part about the underworld, but I've already ruled that out as well. So, yeah.

And the coming home and the sun and things like that. Yeah, I mean, part of the recognition right before they slay the suitors, that's a pretty moving moment when the servant recognizes him because of his scar and all of that. Yeah, I feel like that's the- We have the book right there. What's the last page? I mean, spoiler alert for those of you who have never read The Odyssey. What's the last panel? The last panel reads,

Bracoum, stop son of lyrates you must put away your sword if you would live in peace fulfill the prophecy of tiresias and you will die gently in old age and your name will live forever in story and song. Say the end. The end. Thanks, Dad. Good story. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision, but I do have a lot to think over. So I'm going to go now to my chambers, which this week are located in a coastal cave in Greece.

And I'm going to consult the many, many fossilized skulls of Pleistocene era dwarf elephants that are lying around this cave. And I hope they will give me the wisdom to reach a verdict. And I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Tamar, how are you feeling? Pretty good. I think Aslan did not make a case for himself. I think he does. But I think we both know that we can reach a verdict that is good for both of us. We're not going to take away his telling of Greek mythology, just as long as it's more edited and towards his age, I think

I feel good about that. Just focus on the nonviolent parts, like siring children with cows. Yes. Aslan, how are you feeling i'm feeling good as well i i i like the opportunity of talking through this uh with you know, stand in my position and sort of try to make my case. And I do think I've made the case, but at the same time, I agree that there is some kind of compromise that we can come to. Well, Tamar Aslan, we'll see what the judge has to say when we come back in just a moment. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning

about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I.

Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will.

Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case. Let's talk about what we have going on.

Well, I don't have a lot going on. Dicktown, of course, is available on Hulu, etc., etc. I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who joined me on the phone bank to New Hampshire on Sunday. It was really great to see some of you there. And, you know, as I'm recording this, the outcome of the midterm elections is still unknown. So I live in crossed-fingered hope that we're going to see a Congress that reflects our values going forward. But whatever happens, at least y'all did a little bit extra, and that's all you can do sometimes. So thank you for that. Jesse Thorne, what's going on with you? Well, on my NPR show, Bullseye, we just had a great interview with the legendary Weird Al

Yankovic about his new movie, Weird, and his life and times. He is, of course, one of the loveliest people in show business. And if you're a Weird Al fan or have just always wondered what the human being behind those goofy songs is like, you can give that a listen on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne. This week and this coming week, we have two great comedy people. I love it. Bruce McCullough of the kids in the hall one of the greats who is a brilliant and fascinating dude not just a brilliant comedy guy but a fascinating guy and bashir salahuddin who is uh the co-creator of both of two of the best comedies

on television right now sherman's showcase which is a fantastic kind of sketch comedy soul train parody that's one of the funniest shows on cable. And then Southside, which is a hilarious kind of slice of life comedy about South Chicago that is so great. And he's, yeah, he co-created both of them. He's Sherman on Sherman's Showcase. He's an amazing dude. And then in the Put This On shop, it is the holiday season and we are adding new stuff every day. We just added, please don't. We just added these sort of century old tobacco premium pins. These little pin backs that have flags of the world and breeds of dogs. And they're so beautiful and the perfect thing for, you know, the special

Slovak or Husky lover in your life. And they're all at putthisonshop.com along with imminently a bunch of vintage leather flight jackets. So if you're looking for a cool jacket for the fall, go to putthisonshop.com. Let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. there's a little myth a little grecian myth uh that that uh that first first was recorded in hesiod's works and days a little story about pandora's box you opened this box already and all the scary stuff came out and is living in your son's head and you can't put it back you can't put it back in the box it's done it's donezo you already did it he's already having the dreams of eating apples off your leg your severed leg tamar who severed the leg again uh he did and he ate the leg with

the apples with the apples i mean yeah well you gotta season it it's a nice combo yeah like a pork crust yeah exactly very autumnal and i i'm no child psychologist it should be very obvious here uh and i and i and you know if you want a real ruling on what is developmentally appropriate for your three-year-old go talk to a child psychologist and show them this book and go, uh, did I mess up here or no? Uh, I think that, uh, but I think that I can, I can get enough from this dream, which is that clearly Aslan, you're associated with some gory stuff and some delicious legs and apples. But then I point out that Tamar comes in and puts the leg back and clearly she's associated with

repairing the damage that you're causing to his little mind is it damage exactly well that's for the child psychologist and maybe maybe a child's librarian to help you with there it's a damage i don't want to say that isaka's damage is smart i used to see these photos of this kid this kid's this kid's one of the best kids i'm gonna just put it out there one of the babies looks so bright and smart he's gonna be jack skellington who loves henry selleck movies but that's it i wouldn't let you i wouldn't let him see coralline if i were you that movie's scary it's another another henry selleck movie and i'd probably get money if he saw it because i get a royalty from. Cause I had a small part in that movie. That movie I think is much scarier

visually and thematically than a nightmare before Christmas, right? Cause that's another story of leaving one's parents, leaving one's home, going on an odyssey and being tempted and having difficulty to get back again. You're not wrong, Aslan, that the story has a real grip on children of all ages, as they say on the sides of toys, you know, because going away from home and then and being attracted to go away from home and then yearning for home and having trouble getting back. I mean, it is a story of Coraline. It's a story of Odyssey. It's a story of home alone in a reverse sort of way. It's a story of where the wild things are. It's attractive because it's scary. One of the things about this kid, Isaac, that I thought was really interesting was that you said he's so bright that he seems older than he is.

was that you said he's so bright that he seems older than he is. And this is where I urge you to take caution. Sometimes parents like to get ahead of themselves because they really want to share the stories and the things that they care about that are meaningful to them. And so they might say like, yeah, you know, I think it's about time that my son and I watch The Shining. You know what I mean? And Aslan, you also point out that it's important to find stuff that you enjoy as much as your child. And there's truth in that, in the sense

that you want to find something that shares your values and that speaks to you in some way so that you can share that together. Right. Um, but you don't want to be, you don't want to be entertaining yourself at your, at your kid's expense, at the expense of their happiness and wellbeing, you know, ultimately I think that this was a really interesting experiment to run. As I say, the demons are out of the Pandora's box already. They're going to live in his head. I think that it's probably appropriate for him to be thinking about death and what death means. And it's appropriate for you to answer, you know, honestly, as honestly as you can and as respectfully as you can of his intelligence

and his curiosity. I don't think that talking about death or thinking about death is inappropriate at any age. I mean, it's just one of the scariest things that we think and talk about all the time, all the time. I don't think there's any benefit in protecting him from that conversation. That's why you have things like the Day of the Dead festival. But entertaining your child's natural curiosity about morbid concepts is not the same as scaring them. And as I say, Aslan, I know it was not your intention to scare him. I'm not surprised that he has an attraction to this story, but these pictures are scary. These pictures are scary. If you were reading in the Odyssey without pictures, I wonder whether he would be having the nightmares, but these visuals are scary. I think they're probably for the young adults in

the young adult section, young adult and children's section of the bookstore there in Iowa. I mean, it's scary stuff. Being scared is part of being a child and processing fear is part of being a child and reassuring them that this is a story and not real life. There are no cyclopses, et cetera, that we know of. That's all part of it. And I think that he'll come out of this the better. But it doesn't mean that it was necessarily advisable to start with. advisable to start with, especially when there's so much, I mean, it's like you, you, you will soon have a child who is more, is more than old enough to, to take this in without waking up in the middle of the night. Let me put it this way. You want to share an experience with your child when

you're reading a book, the thoughts and feelings that a book promotes or provokes, you don't want to share trauma responses. Like it's not, it's not the greatest thing to my ears that both you and your son are having nightmares about drowning, you know, like you're experiencing. And by the way, congratulations on, on, on your, uh on working on your dissertation, is it? Yes. I mean, I know it's hard. I know there must, I mean, I don't know because I don't have a PhD. I barely have a bachelor's degree in literature.

But I mean, like, that's a lot of work. And I'm not surprised that you feel like you're drowning and having anxiety dreams about it. And I'm not surprised that Isaac is having scary dreams about going down in a whirlpool when you're showing him pictures of a whirlpool all the time. What's your PhD on? Biblical studies, Hebrew Bible. Oh, okay. Well, there you go. Just reading the Bible.

That's the best book there is, right? Number one book. Better yet, read him your dissertation. That'll put him to sleep. Sorry. I'm sure it's true. I couldn't resist. I resist definitely it's terrific so you know i truly think this is one where there's like no harm no foul um but i would i would say you can leave that book on the shelf for a little bit until he asks for it. And then, you know, see if he does, see if he asks for it, see if he misses it. You know, if he misses it and wants to come back to

it, unless a child psychologist disagrees with me, and I urge you to consult one, because I kind of, I kind of over my skis on this one, but if he asked for it, then, you know, it's like he's trying to process it still. And, uh, and then I would say you can go ahead and read it to him and you can go ahead and have a conversation with him about what he's feeling and why as best as he can with a three-year-old. And Aslan, when you are enjoying culture with Isak and their questions come up, like, is he good or bad? You should maybe draft something that's a little bit more age appropriate to have on hand. A little less dissertation-y and a little bit more like, well, there's good and bad in everyone and no one ever thinks they're the bad guy. And let's see if that works. Just takes a, you know, there's a reason why we have kids books

and then there's a reason why we have dissertations. They're different genres. So I make no judgment. I guess I find in your favor aslan because you won there was a summary judgment in your favor at the beginning but i say i do it with with much advisement it's like you you did the damage already you're going to do a lot more damage both of you as parents in in without realizing it and without intending to um So let this serve as a warning, as a parable, to try to be a little bit mindful of the damage that you might be doing

as you're doing it. And then you can do less. Oh, one last thing. You're definitely on nightmare duty for the next six months. This is the sound of a soft gavel. In constant sorrow all through his day.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Aslan, how are you feeling about your qualified victory? I am feeling fantastic. I do feel like that last clause in the verdict about being on nightmare duty for six months definitely qualifies it a little bit more. But those were elucidating words from the judge. And I appreciate that very much. So, yeah, I'm feeling good.

Tamar, how are you feeling? I feel good. I feel like that's sort of a win. That's what I wanted to do, to have Aslan be more mindful of what he's reading, to put it on the shelf and be on nightmare duty. So I feel good. I feel like it's a compromise that we were looking for, that I was looking for at least. Well, Tamar Aslan, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you. This was fun. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

In a moment, we will have swift justice. First, our thanks to Twitter user at TheRealSobrero for naming this week's episode Homer Confinement. If you want to name a future episode, make sure you're following us there on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. While you're there, you can hashtag your judge, John Hodgman, tweets, hashtag JJHO. Homer Confinement is really good, but Jesse, I just want to shout out a runner up at Whiskey and Grit who suggested Closing Argonauts. I really love that one, but Jason and the Argonauts, it's a different story. It's not Odysseus.

Different story. Someone get into a conflict about Jason and the Argonauts so we can use that one. You can join the conversation about the show on Reddit at MaximumFun.Reddit.com. We post evidence from the show and sometimes other stuff at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman, as well as on the episode page at MaximumFun.org. Make sure to follow us over there on Instagram. This episode was recorded by Max Fabian at Tightrope Recording in Chicago. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Our editor is Valerie Moffat.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment. Twitter user at MichelleTheFan says, My husband is a chronic song skipper. As a song nears the end, he'll skip to the next track. I know the driver gets to control the music, but I think he goes too far. At least let the song end. Yeah, I could see how that would be wildly annoying. So you have the right, Michelle, the fan, to be annoyed. But if your husband is doing that while you're in the car and he's

driving, I'm afraid it has to stand. Settled law. The driver controls the music. It's not just a matter, it's not a matter of tyranny. It's a matter of keeping the situation safe for the driver. If there's some end to this, maybe a slow fade out will cause your husband to be distracted and go off the road. Sorry. I got to let settled law stand here, even though I don't like it. I don't like that habit at all. Do you think there are more music related disputes out there? I think there probably are. Well, you know, we're working our way through a big one right now, which is what is the

best song about airships, dirigibles, blimps, semi-rigid inflatables, Zeppelins, all lighter than hot air balloons, all lighter than aircraft. This is arguably the or question of all music. Which is the best Zeppelin song, but not which is the best Led Zeppelin song, which is the best song about Zeppelins. Yeah, exactly. And I just want everyone to know, thank you for all your suggestions. I've got all that I need.

You don't need to send in any more zeppelin songs of any kind i got 32 hot ones and i'm figuring out how to work them into a bracket style uh march madness poll situation so you can vote on them round by round so we can finally settle this for our listener jared who believes of the Clouds by Iron Maiden is the best song about airships ever written maybe it's so you'll decide and as soon as I know how to do this I'm going to announce how it's going to be done it'll be done online and we'll report the voting as we go through each rounds but in the meantime is there a best song about I don't know what donuts of course there is Ivar Cutler's A Donut in My Hand, but maybe there's another one about donuts. Is there a best song about, I don't know,

what's a topic of a song? Love? Yeah, I guess. There've probably been songs written about that. I can't think of one. Yeah, there's too many songs about love. Is there a best song about shoes? Is there a best song about clothes? Is there a best song that mentions a state in it? You know, Anita O'Day sings that song about Massachusetts. It's a swing song. What's your favorite song about trains? Is it Roger Miller's King of the Road or is there another one? If you've got a dispute with someone about which is the best kind of song,

non-love songs only, please. There are too many of those. Sorry, Paul McCartney. Send them in, won't you? Maximumfund.org slash JJHO. Of course, we are eager to hear about disputes on any subject. No case is too big. No case is too small.

Send them to maximumfund.org slash JJHO and we shall adjudicate them. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximumfun.org Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Audience supported.