Judge John Hodgman - Hubble Jeopardy

Episode Date: August 4, 2021

Kathryn files suit against her friend, Jerome. Jerome commissioned Kathryn to paint large scale panels inspired by the Hubble telescope photos. She did, and he's thrilled with them except for one thing: She didn't sign her work! She says that's not her thing. But, even still, Jerome thinks she should sign the panels.Who’s right? Who’s wrong?Thank you to Elyse O'Neill for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions there.--TICKETS ARE ON SALE NOW for our Judge John Hodgman Live Streaming Event with the London Podcast Festival! It's happening on Thursday 09/09/2021 at 12:30pm PT / 3:30pm ET / 8:30pm BST. For more info and tickets, click here! And make sure to follow us on Instagram for evidence! 

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, Hubble Jeopardy! Catherine files suit against her friend Jerome. Jerome commissioned Catherine to paint large-scale panels inspired by the Hubble telescope photos. She did, and he's thrilled, except for one thing. She didn't sign her work. She says that's not her thing, but even still, Jerome thinks she should sign the panels. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. A straight line can be readily drawn among each of the two series of points corresponding to the maxima and minima, thus showing that there is a simple relation between the brightness of the seth-fied variables and their periods.

Catherine and Jerome, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? Whatever. We do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's a rocket man and I think it's going to be a long, long time? Yes, we do. Yes. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Catherine and Jerome, you may be seated. For an immediate summary judgment, in one of yours favors, could one of you please,

or both of you, perhaps name the piece of obscure culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom. Catherine, why don't you guess first? I'm going to guess Star Trek the original series, the Mirror Mirror episode, and Evil Spock says it.

That is a solid guess. Thank you. A straight line can be readily drawn among each of the two series of points corresponding to the maximum and minimum. The Mirror Mirror episode from the original series TOS of Star Trek, I'm putting into the guest book, Jerome. John, sorry, I don't mean to interrupt here, but I think it's a bad guess because John, Spock is a good guy. Oh, I'm sorry, Jesse, but when he has a goatee, he's all evil all the time. He has pointy ears. You're thinking of a different character.

Go ahead, John. I'm sorry, Catherine. You may not know this, but I think it's been how long, Jesse, that you've had a beard and a mustache? Six years? Six years? Seven years? Yeah, seven years, let's say. That's when evil Jesse came in. We're dealing with your universe, Jesse.

I don't know what you did with my lovely, bald-faced, bald-headed, pure baby-faced man-child friend that I used to know. But guess what? In 2014 or 15 or so, I grew a beard too. So we're both mirror universe. Yeah, we're evil. Watch out punk rock guys on buses. That's right. We're going to give you a death grip.

That's right. And we know that Jennifer Marmer is mirror universe Jennifer Marmer because she's wearing a golden sash and she's carrying a cutlass. But Joel Mann here at WERU in Maine, you've always rocked that goatee, right? That's right. Okay. Joel Mann is chaotic neutral. That's right.

Joel Mann is Uatu the Watcher. He is not paying attention. He's not a moral arbiter of this universe. He just sits behind the glass. Anyway, Jerome, what was your guess? My guess is Euclid the Elements. Euclid the Elements. Jesse, is that a rapper? No, that's the third baseman from Moneyball. Got it. Kevin Euclid. All guesses are wrong. I am sorry to say, I was hoping that one of you could say, well, I guess you're probably

quoting Edwin Hubble, for whom the Hubble telescope is named. And then I could say, no, you're wrong again. Double wrong on you, because the person I was actually quoting was Henrietta Swan Leavitt. Now, Henrietta Swan Leavitt was an astronomer. She lived from 1868 to 1921. She died young at the age of 53. She was a graduate of Radcliffe. She eventually became a person without hearing. She was a non-hearing astronomer for much of her career, which was spent at the Harvard College Observatory, where she worked as a, quote, computer, which was the name that men scientists gave to women scientists before they would admit they were scientists. They were computers of data, specifically tasked with examining photographic plates

and measuring and cataloging the brightness of stars. She prepared a study in 1912 that I quoted from. That study was called The Periods of 25 Variable Stars in the Small Magellanic Cloud, which everyone now knows as the PO-25 Mixtape, in which she outlined the period-luminosity relationship of Cepheid stars. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly. Don't send me letters. C-E-P-H-E-I-D, maybe Cepheid.

The point is these stars pulse in temperature and light, and the constant relationship between their period and their luminosity would become known as Leavitt's Law and would allow astronomers to for once and finally be able to calculate not only galactic distances but intergalactic distances, which they couldn't do before then because they only had tape measures. Levitt's law allowed astronomers to establish that the universe is much larger than we thought. Also established we're not at the center of it. And also would be used by Edwin Hubble to demonstrate that the universe is expanding,

it's getting bigger. That was Edwin Hubble's big discovery that got his name on a telescope, even though his discovery was based on a piece of research done by Henrietta Swan Leavitt, who died in Cambridge, Massachusetts, our fair city, at the age of 53. And she only got an asteroid out of it, asteroid 5383 Leavitt, who died in Cambridge, Massachusetts, our fair city, at the age of 53. And she only got an asteroid out of it, asteroid 5383 Leavitt, and a hole in the moon called Crater Leavitt on the dark side of the moon.

She also got a telescope somewhere else. So there you go. History lesson for you astronomy buffs. Wow. Good for them. Yeah. Very good. Good for them.

Don't put down the dark side of the moon john that's the cool side of the moon literally and figuratively i don't have a pink floyd joke for you do you have one for me i don't know i'm i'm kind of comfortably numb over here we're all just bricks in the wall oh boy joel joel brought it home what do you just supposed to be watching you can't affect this reality anyway let's hear this case katherine hi you come to this court seeking justice what is the justice that you seek oh um jerome wants me to sign uh sign these humongous drops that I've painted. And I just don't want to do it.

I'm not going to do it. I don't want to do it. You've created art for Jerome's home? I did. Jerome has this amazing... What I like to call the Jer-home. Yeah. It's actually an outbuilding. It's like separate from the home. It's its own special realm.

That's a poop shack. It's a poop shack. Sure. You drew Starscape for Jerome's poop shack out back? I did. Composting toilet? Mm-hmm. Please do not insult the Jerome, John. The. The Ger-home is known the world over for its Ger-majesty.

And you don't want to sign your art because you would prefer to go down in relative anonymity, much like Henrietta Swan Leavitt. Well, yes, truly, honestly, yes. Because I have a theater background and I've learned sort of, I've learned to do work in service of a greater good.

Usually in theater, it's a service of the show. And I feel like this was exactly in the service of Jerome's vision. It wasn't really my personal artwork. Also, they're huge. They're like theater drops. Right. Nine foot by 12 foot canvases. Like you wouldn't make a drop for a theater show and put your name on it. Like you would just do it. I completely

understand where you're coming from. Yeah. You would just moonwalk out of there knowing that you did a great job. I completely understand where you're coming from, Catherine. Jesse, Thorne, you know, I have not spent a lot of time treading the boards of live theater, but I certainly have done my fair share of my imitation acting on screen, and I've spent some time in the entertainment world, and I can confirm with Catherine it is a completely egoless pursuit. The one thing that matters the least when putting on any kind of show is no one gets credit.

No one gets credit at all whatsoever. No one cares. As long as the show goes on, no one cares where they appear in the credits. We're all just a face in the crowd, John. Another brick in the wall. That's why one goes into the entertainment industry. That's right.

Become faceless. Catherine, do you have a background in theater? And you refer to these things as drops. And just for those of our listeners who are not down with the theater lingo, a drop would be what? I call them a drop because they're made from drop cloths, like painter's drop cloths. So they're soft. They're not stretched on a canvas. And Jerome has sort of hung them in his place.

Some of them kind of drape or... Mounted. They're all mounted. They're all mounted. Let's be respectful. Okay. Of your art. Jerome, may I congratulate you in this astronomy-adjacent conversation for taking that beautiful Carl Sagan cadence and bringing some of that Sagan energy to the, yeah.

You let the record show that I can see Jerome visibly on the teleconference using his hands to literally bring down the energy. They're mounted. I mean, if listeners at home could see Jerome's enormous necktie right now, they would know how Carl Sagan-y he is. Well, it's a virtual necktie. Well, I would call it a cravat myself. Wow. Who has the theater background now you have menswear the menswear should we talk about the footprints so jerome also has i don't know i seem to recall that uh

that i'm the judge and i lead the conversation oh but i'll allow it let's talk about the footprint whatever that may be i can see i'm going to have no control over this situation. Jerome, do you want to talk about it? Yeah, we haven't heard from you, Jerome. Well, there are three footprints in one of the panels. I call them panels rather than drops. To me, it's more respectful. panels rather than drops. To me it's more respectful. And on one of the panels there are three footprints. Two, when I say footprints, they're shoe prints. And two are in black and one is in white. They're kind of toward the center of the piece. And one of the things, along with asking that Catherine sign each of the panels, I wanted her to correct

that one panel to remove the shoe prints, the three shoe prints. These are shoe prints. Wait a minute. I thought that these were images of galactic majesty inspired by photographs of the vast universe as captured by the Hubble telescope. Catherine, are you saying you caught footprints in these photographs? Have you proved the existence of interstellar travelers?

They are space footprints. Yeah, truly. I work on them on the ground. I paint with a paintbrush on a stick and spray paint. I lay them all out and walk all over the canvas. And walk all over the canvas. Oh, I see. So a few of my special little size eight shoe prints made it onto the nebula. So I happen to just leave them there because I'm used to a very forgiving medium. In theater, things are seen from very far away and a shoe print is it just disappears and i thought these are going to be actual actual shoe prints i stepped in the paint and then i stepped on the nebula and i just missed it it. You know. Classic problem. I missed it.

I didn't fix it when I did it. So Jerome is not merely seeking that you sign your work, but is also seeking damages for stepping all over your own work. My argument is that the shoe prints are my signature. And that's where I would like to leave it.

Well, I wish you would have left for me to come to that in my verdict, because that is exactly what I was going to order. But I think we have more to hear from Jerome because my my position may change. Let's take a quick recess. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. podcast. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org, and they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel.

Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep. That's the sound of you learning a sound to happen. Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world and you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid,

weird, hyper-academic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off

your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right?

Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with made-in pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs,

they're made-in, made-in. The Rohan duck, made-in, made-in. Riders of Rohan, duck! What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made-in, made-in. Made in. Made in. Made in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad.

It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town? Just buy it online. This is professional grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. Jerome, you commissioned these panels, these drops, these paintings of the heavens. Right.

Which we're going to take a look at. I believe we have evidence and folks can go over to the Judge John Hodgman page at maximumfund.org and to our Instagram at Judge John Hodgman to see the evidence. But before we look at the images, let's talk about what your desire was for them and the meaning behind the commission. Well, I have this metal building. It's 18 feet wide, 30 feet long. Wow. You need all that just to take an outdoors poop?

Hey, let's not get personal. Joel, what's that, about 540 square feet? Exactly. 540 is my number for it. And the peak of the roof is 12 foot high. So it's kind of one cathedral ceiling building that I insulated myself and have it set up as my TARDIS. Not a physical TARDIS, but a TARDIS of the mind.

Okay. That's my idea with these panels, the Hubble telescope picture inspired galaxies, nebula. It's when I walk in and when I have guests in, it's to take you to new dimensions in mental space and multi-dimensions. Got it. Let's just hold on TARDIS of the mind for a second because I'm getting a very different mental picture. When Catherine described this as an outbuilding, obviously my mind immediately went to the toilet, specifically the outdoor composting toilet. This is a major structure that you have. It is not a shed. It is a Meow Wolf style experience, it sounds like. wolf style experience it sounds like yes and john just just to be clear your head is still in the toilet my head is way back like five minutes ago in the mall food court with a paintbrush on a stick well let's take a look at the evidence in this tardis of the mind once again all the evidence will be available on our judge john hodgman Instagram account and our show page at MaximumFun.org. Exhibit A, Jerome's

Exhibit A, this is my entry door to my TARDIS. So what I'm seeing here is a door that is painted black. Thank you, by the way. I was tired of that red one and it is surrounded by it is surrounded by a corona of painted light well it it is a you know the opening of doctor who each episode is the spiraling space yes draws you in that's that's what I was capturing with that entrance. Okay, so then you open this door. Wait, hold on, John. You're leaving out a key piece about this door, which is it appears to have been textured with that kind of expanding foam insulation that comes out of a spray can. Okay, good point. It is. And then that foam is then covered with an exterior caulk and then painted on top of that.

Yeah, so he also caulked it up. And is this your work or Catherine's work? This is my work, my caulk. What planet are you on? Are you on Earth with us? I come and go. What region of Earth do you live on currently? And if this is indeed in our dimension, what region of Earth is this TARDIS of the mind dimensionally situated?

New Albany, Indiana. New Albany, Indiana. Okay. One of the great remaining gems of small-town America. What do you mean? Well, population 36,000, and it's gorgeous. It's beautiful. population 36,000 and it's gorgeous. It's beautiful. It's, it's I'm sorry. I heard, I heard, I heard Jim as in G Y M. I didn't hear Jim. I apologize. I thought there was some special YMCA there. I apologize.

Well, they do have a great YMCA, but. Oh, okay. Well then let's leave it in. Shout out to the new Albany Y. All right. This is, John, one of those small towns in America that I learned about from American Pickers, where everyone just has unlimited outbuildings. Just so many outbuildings. And Jerome and Catherine, just to be clear, you are friends, correct? Yes.

We met at a meditation group. Oh, okay. And what kind of meditation did you do? David Lynch style, transcendental with cigarettes? It's a Zen meditation group. Wonderful. We sit for an hour and then we chant and then we read a koan. Lovely.

And are you also a resident of New Albany, Indiana, the gem of Indiana? Jerome and I live about 15 minutes apart, but we live in different states. I'm right across the river in Louisville, Kentucky. Got it. Why make it simple? You obviously inhabit multiple planes of existence. I get it. Sometimes you're in Kentucky.

Sometimes you're in Indiana. It's impossible to tell. Exhibit B. I quote, in the backyard leading to the TARDIS. We're not even in the TARDIS yet, Jerome? No, we're still getting there we're getting how many how many exhibits are C exhibit C D E F G H I we've got a lot of it J K L M M and M M exhibit M alone has five photos in it.

It's an audio podcast. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. All right. I'm going to ask everyone to pause the podcast for a moment and do whatever you need to do to open your third eye so that as I can describe these things to you, you can travel with me into the world of Jerome and the many universes that are contained within his outbuilding. I'm going to do my best to get through as much of this as I can.

All right. Did you all pause? Are you ready now? Is your third eye opened? Joel Mann, third eye open open good joel you are going to represent the listener to me because i know you can't see what i'm seeing got it in the backyard leading the tardis is a driftwood sculpture with a colony of frolics the frolics share a common ancestor with daleks they're villains from doctor who joel who right the frolics however are generous fun-lospirited. Not like the Daleks at all. And these are, and did you make these? Are these all your work? These little driftwood? These are all my work, yes.

And the Frolics are your own invention, right? Oh, well, I would say I discovered them. Right. I look forward to hearing you mount that defense when the BBC sues you out of existence. Jerome, Exhibit C. This is the man cave on your right as you step in. The front divider panel is the first thing you see as you walk into the TARDIS. Here is a room full of beautiful galactic imagery on the walls, as well as quite a few fairy lights and also a wood stove and a nice flat panel TV and some armchairs. Is this your work, Catherine, these starry nights?

Yes, yes, yes, it is. Beautiful. Thank you. That's really lovely. I honestly did not imagine we would get to something relevant to our case as soon as Exhibit C. I am grateful for that. This is the one you may want to look at, Joel, when you're going to judge Sean Hodgman on Instagram, Exhibit C. Okay.

These are the paintings of the stars that Catherine made. Catherine, did you freehand these or freefoot these? Or are these based on actual Hubble photographs? I did. Jerome, let me borrow a book of Hubble images. And so each one kind of has a source image. But mostly I almost like tie-dyed, like dipped the fabric first and sort of used the shape that emerged. It was pretty give and take emotionally

with seeing what presented. It was, yes. As opposed to a one-to-one imitation. Sure. Yeah, that's what art is. Good for you. It's beautiful. Thank you.

Jerome let you borrow this book of Hubble telescope photographs? Yes, I got paint all over it. Oh, really? Interesting. Yeah, I don't mind those shoe prints. Oh, because this is a book that you own, Jerome. Yes. Is that right?

I see. So you believe in ownership of material things? Oh, because you, because, oh, this is a book that you own, Jerome. Is that right? I see. So you believe in ownership of material things. Oh, yeah. Huh. Funny. Interesting. Not very Zen. Whatever.

Exhibit D, you step into the TARDIS, to your left is the art corner with the following elements. on that point i just would invite you to go to any zen center and at the end of the sitting try and walk out with one of the cushions see how non-possessive they are you mean i can get a i can get a free cushion if i want out of this place? If you can run fast enough, yes. I just, John, before we get into what's depicted here in Exhibit D, I just want to clarify for the at-home listener who's not looking at the notes here, that with the exception of Art Corner, all the proper nouns you're about to hear have their first letters capitalized. These are all official titles. They're not just descriptions. No, they're areas of the TARDIS.

Yeah, they're official titles. They could be commemorated with a plaque for all we know. As you step into the TARDIS, the first installation you see is capital C, Confronting Art Challenge. The Confronting Art Challenge. The Confronting Art Challenge. Next on Survivor. Let me just set the stage here for everyone who's listening. To the left is the Tunnel of Lights, capital T, capital L, together with various bolo ties.

I think we're going to get to those later. To the right is the the quote, capital L, literal sacrifice sculpture and the sculpture of Potts along with various BoloTies. And then launching off in the art corner is the vacuum of SpaceBot. There's a lot to take in here, Jerome. And by the way, what is the SpaceBot have against BoloTies? That's what I want to know. What does the space bot have against bolo ties? That's what I want to know. Well, the vacuum of space bots started out as three defunct vacuum cleaners and got transformed into a bot.

Isn't it a rocket ship? Well, it's launching itself into space. Now, let me give credit where credit is due here, Jerome, because this is an amazing physical space that you have created. This is all your work, correct, Jerome? Correct. Yeah. And it is a multimedia found object collage full of light and color and bolo ties that is very, very difficult to explain with words. It is not, shall I say, grokkable simply using linear language,

especially since you described four photos here and you provided only three. That, I believe, is called the challenge of confronting art. Well, I think if you scroll down a little, you'll see the bot. Oh, believe me, I'm scrolling, Jerome. I am scrolling. I want to say here that while these installations have ridiculous names and a homemade quality to them, they really are pretty remarkable. Like they're really something to see. Obviously, we're in challenging times when it comes to being together in shared spaces and to them, they really are pretty remarkable. Like they're really something to see. Obviously, we're in challenging times when it comes to being together in shared spaces and breathing on each other. But in better times in past and we hope future, is this a place that you would share with members of the New Albany community? Or is this just a place for yourself to

unwind, reconnect and visit the stars? unwind, reconnect, and visit the stars? Well, it's also for people in my immediate circles. So, like people from my online book club and people from my Zen meditation group and people from my men's group have joined me in this. But I'm not thinking in terms of opening it to the general public. No. Well, I think I assume that after my death, it will be one of those, we don't know what we found, but you've got to come see this kind of things. Which is an incredible, you know, honestly, as someone who ponders death quite a bit myself, that's not an earth thought

about a legacy as inspiring as that. It's just a truly confounding thing you leave behind for future generations to ponder and worry about. I think it's a beautiful space, Jerome. I think it's fantastic.

Jerome, have you ever seen the throne of the third heaven of the nation's Millennium General Assembly at the Smithsonian in Washington, D.C.? No, I've only seen it when it's in recess in my own mind. I think you just got got, Jesse. I think in terms of the legacy, I'm thinking of this kind of as a stone hinge of the mind. Right. It's my art corner. I mentioned the throne of the third heaven of the nation's Millennium General Assembly because it is this amazing installation. because it is this amazing installation. I mean, it is a throne made of silver and gold tinfoil that this man named James Hampton built in,

I think it's a two-car garage in Washington, D.C., secretly over the course of like 15 years in the 50s and 60s that was only found upon his death and was then moved to the Smithsonian, which is one of the most breathtaking things I've ever seen in my life. And your space, you know, it's a little bit of that and maybe a little bit Pee Wee's Playhouse. But yes, you're right. It's that kind of outsider assembly art that inspires me. Yes.

Yeah. I sense a little Gary Panter in there as well, Jesse Thorne. See, I know some things about art. Who are your inspirations, Jerome? Well, I don't know particular names. Just looking through books of outsider art. And your own mind. Oh, well, let's never leave that.

No, I agree. Let's never leave Jerome's mind. I am ready to live in Jerome's mind forever and ever. I think Jerome pretty much only leaves Jerome's mind to maybe cop a few new bolos. Yeah, let's talk about Exhibit H, Jerome. I'm skipping ahead a bit. Starting in the, and I quote, starting in the art corner and spilling out into the workspace area are my 280 bolo ties. My plan is for these to eventually be transmogrified into wall bolos parentheses a brand new category i will be pioneering and parentheses okay uh before we move into wall bolos congratulations 280 bolo ties is a lot i

think that's slightly more bolo ties than i had in my wardrobe in 1988 and i had quite a few yeah that's what they call a lyle Lovett of bolo ties. And you have these beautiful bolo ties, some of which also seem to be constructed by you, perhaps, Drew? Oh, they're all constructed by me. Oh, wow. Okay. They're gorgeous. I brought them to some art fairs, having in mind to sell these. But everyone who came and liked them also said, well, if you caught me in the 70s, I might buy it.

But no one, I don't wear bolo ties anymore. No one I know, my parents don't. And so that's my idea for wall bolos to turn these into something that someone who liked the look could mount on a wall rather than wearing. Sure. Well, look, they're absolutely lovely, Jerome. And I'll tell you what, if this were 1988, I definitely would buy a wall full of bolo ties. But they're too special to buy.

I think they look good arranged here in your TARDIS. They're very special, though. You have to wait until you die and transfer them to the Smithsonian. Yeah, I think that might be the case, yes. I mean, what are some of the materials you're using? I'm looking at this array here in Exhibit H, because Exhibit I is spillover bolo ties that go into the workspace. So I don't think we needed a separate exhibit moment for that. Well, the materials are stones, usually as the base, some kind of flat stone, and then a more colorful rounded stone, a stone made out of beads, and then wire work. wire work and the weights at the end of the cords I made out of copper or aluminum pipe that I shaped and decorated.

Gorgeous. Yeah. If our listener is imagining a more traditional bolo tie, like think of them as being a kind of – the aesthetic is closer to like a late 80s, 1990 postmodern jewelry kind of thing. Although I'm sure – I say that only for the convenience of our listeners to imagine them, not to describe what is in our litigants' mind. I think that's indescribable. I mean, did you really want to sell these or no? I did want to sell them, but that was just on my side. The world was not ready or willing to buy them. Okay. You're still open to some offers.

I am, sure. All right. If Lyle Lovett rolled through right now, what would it take to take these bolo ties home? One and all. I want two prices. One price for just one and a price for all of them. Lyle Lovett's here. He's got all that Lovett money.

He could have them all for $5,000. $5,000. That's a very fair price. That strikes me as very fair. Are there 280 of them? 280. Can you do that math, anybody? I mean, you know, $15, $20.

$15, $20. that's a bargain for love it what about this one with the blue in the lower right hand corner this blue semi-precious gemstone or whatever it is what kind of stone is that so this is polished bright blue stone it is polished yeah it's polished and i i think that might be um a lapis lazuli polished. Yeah. And, you know, if they're going individually, I'd say more like that would be like $80. What?

Okay. All right. Yeah. Joel Mann, I just sent a picture of this one to you. I was thinking about getting it for you as a gift, but now it's 80 bucks. It's money that I could be donating to WERU.org. Wow. That's nice. Yeah. Well, you know, if you get the whole package, it's more like $20 a piece. You're right. The bargain really here is buying $5,000 worth of bowl of ties. Hey, look, Jerome, I'm not an American picker. I'm not one of these guys

who's going to roll into town and try to take you for a ride and all the stuff you have in your outbuilding, get it for cheap because I'm going to resell it at my antique store or whatever. So dudes can hang it in their man cave next to their oil and gas collectibles. Put a circle around that lapis lazuli one. I'm thinking about it as a gift for Joel Mann here in Maine. Would you do $75? I'm going to stick with $80. It's $80.

Whoa. All right. You know what? I'm going to stick with $80. It's $80. Whoa. All right. You know what? I'll think it over. You know John doesn't have love it money. Yeah, but he's only going for one. Okay. I think I've got a lot to think about.

I think I'm almost ready to go into my TARDIS and make my verdict. But let's try to land this time and relative dimensions in space vehicle back on Earth for a moment and get back to the case. Jerome, Catherine has said she does not feel like she wants to sign her work. She feels that her footprints on the stars is essentially her mark upon the universe that is contained within your outbuilding. You do not accept this. Why is it important to you that she sign her beautiful work? Well, she only came up with the idea that the shoe print would be her signature after I asked her to correct the shoe prints and also asked her to sign each panel. This is only one panel and the shoe prints are

kind of in the middle, not on a corner. And you don't like the shoe prints. You want her to fix them, right? Well, I would like it fixed. And also, you know, if she had from from the outset, said, the way I'm going to sign these panels is with a shoe print in each corner, you know, on one corner of each of the panels, I would have gone with that. But that's not how it went. This was something she thought of only after I said, correct the shoe prints. And as far as that being an okay signature, you know what I go to, I go to the bank, I'm going to deposit a check in my account and they say, well, you need to sign the back. And I say, hold on, take off one of my shoes, ink it up and stamp the back. they're not going to accept that. I don't know. That feels like a pretty Jerome thing to do, honestly.

Yeah, but the bank wouldn't go for it. This is what I'm saying. And, you know, it's one thing she doesn't sign her theater art. I understand that. But this is a private commission I made to her for my private space. A couple of quick questions. Did you pay her? Yes. Okay. You paid her Earth money? Regular old Earth money? Yes, Earth

money, yeah. Okay. I'll leave it to her to say how much if she wants. No, it's not important. I hope you didn't pay her in bolo ties. She wouldn't go for that. I know. Those things are worth 80 bucks a piece. That's as good as cash. I know. She wouldn't go for it. Take those to

the bank. They'll cash them right away. Hottest new cryptocurrency around. Jerome's bolo ties. Bring your bolos down to the Bureau de Change. Can I ask a question? Yeah, sure. To Jerome, do you sign your work?

My bigger work, yes. The frolics are signed, yes. Is the vacuum of SpaceBot signed? No, but if someone wanted to buy it from me, I would sign it. How much are you charging for the vacuum of SpaceBot? Oh, that is $350. That's nothing. There's nothing to Lyle Lovett.

This guy passes out three. He's got that old country money. All right. Do you want her to sign it because she's your friend and you want her to acknowledge her participation in this huge art project you have going on? Or do you want to sign it because you think it might be valuable someday and some American picker might come through and be like, sorry, I don't know the provenance of this Hubble painting. I can only give you $7 for it. But if it were signed, Catherine would be like, oh, okay, yeah, I'll take this for $5,000.

What's going on here? Well, I want them signed because she is my friend. She's a wonderful artist. And these are wonderful pieces of art. They're not a theater set. They are pieces of art I commissioned. She executed. Got it. Okay. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to go into my personal favorite TARDIS control room, the wood paneled one that Tom Baker,

the fourth doctor, traveled around in for a while. And I will mull on this for a moment, and then I will come back to your reality and render my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jerome, how are you feeling about your chances in this case? Oh, I'm loving it. I'm loving it. Yeah, well, now you've got that love it dough. You're not sweating it anymore. It's clear in my mind how it's going to go. Jerome, let's say love it walks up to you right now. He wants to buy those panels.

What are you charging him for them? Oh, they're not going. That's not a sell item. Yeah. He can talk to my estate once I'm gone. Catherine made the, oh, my dear heart gesture as he said that. Catherine, how are you feeling about your chances? I think that I'm definitely going to win this case.

I mean, of course, nobody can make me do anything. I don't want to. I'm the artist. Honestly, I don't even sign. I'm not even that great about signing my personal work like uh I just don't I don't know but I guess if if it's ordered that I I have to then I certainly will but um you know it's uh it's I don't I don't know that there are going to be any collectors out there that are going to be searching for my super valuable work. It's not my aspiration to be that guy anyway. Well, we'll see what happens when Jerome dies and they find that garage, you know? Once it's headed to the Smithsonian, anything goes.

Sure. I'm honestly just proud to be a collaborator in this amazing work of art that Jerome did, really. Catherine, if it weren't such a wonderful opportunity for sophistry and an opportunity for you to claim that it's your signature, Would you repair the footprints? I would if forced, but I would. You've seen the space. Do you really think anybody is going to be looking at a shoe print in there?

Honestly, Jerome is pointing to himself. It's bothering Jerome. If he really wants me to fix it, I will, but only if the judge orders it. Jerome, what are you watching on this television in here anyway? You're just hanging out watching This Is Us or whatever? Well, you know, I have a set of Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals. I have, you know, the Worcester and Jeeves BBC series. Those are really good. Do you find that the quality of the guest actors on that really varies wildly?

Like sometimes you'll be like, this person's fantastic. And sometimes you're like, that's supposed to be an American accent? No, I don't notice that. Okay. That's kind of how I feel. I'm just always focused on Worcester and Jeeves. That's it. They're perfect.

That's my world. They're perfect. As good as it gets. Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory.

The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-o-d-c-a-s-t-i hmm are you trying to put the name of the podcast there yeah i'm trying to spell it but it's tricky let me give it a try okay if you need a laugh and you're on the go call s-t-o-p-p-p-a-d-i it'll never fit no it will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-p-d-c-o-o ah we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximumfun.org if you need a laugh then you're on the go.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. Look, I've been a Whovian for a long time. I love Doctor Who. Anybody who references the TARDIS is going to be a friend of mine. It's very, very rare that I have encountered a Time Lord. Don't think I've met many of them. And by Time Lord, I mean I'm talking about a Gallifrey and a time-traveling agent of chaos that slips between dimensions and disrupts everybody's sense of what is real and what is not real, much like all of the various Doctors Who. But I'm feeling like I know that you are a human of Earth, Jerome. I know that you're not a space-traveling, time-traveling alien.

I know this building is an outbuilding in New Albany, Indiana, and it is not a portal through time and space, despite the beautiful and evocative portraits of space that Catherine has provided for you. But there is something very destabilizing about talking to you because just listening to you say, I just thought to myself when I heard Jesse ask you, what do you watch on TV? And you're you're like Rogers and Hammerstein musicals. Oh, and Worcester and Jeeves. I'm just like, everything that Jerome says is a complete 180 degree surprise that automatically just becomes the most unsurprising thing about him. Like, oh, right. Of course. Like what? Oh, yeah, of course. Of course. This guy makes driftwood, driftwood alternate universe Daleks that are fun and signs them, even though they're not his IP. And also is rocking musicals. He is a Zen meditator who nonetheless puts a tremendous amount of material value on these bolo ties.

And unlike my very, very, very, you know, I won't even say ninth grade, like seventh and a half grade understanding of both large and small vehicles and Buddhism. There's a lot of rigidity in Jerome's point of view regarding these tapestries, these drops, these paintings that Catherine made. They are interpretations of the cosmos that now bear not the fingerprints, but the footprints of their creator. This is what religions are based on. Total inconsequential mistakes in the landscape that we ascribe special meaning to, the special authorship of some unknown creator. Those footprints are the best signature you could ever have. And I remain

angry at you, Catherine, for stealing that from me, stealing that idea from me, even though you obviously had it before I did, long before I could ever reach this verdict. That is the idea that this is something that Catherine needs to repair in the painting that she made for you. I mean, you live in a TARDIS, dude. Can you go with the flow a little bit? Just let bend like a reed in the wind for a second here. You are creating an installation of wild, beautiful chaos. And you're like looking at the footprints of your friend going, she needs to come in here and fix it. And by the way, why don't you sign your darn artwork

in case I need to sell it someday. Catherine is right. I can't make her do that. She's the artist. Tough. You don't buy a signature when you buy it. When you commission artwork, you buy the artwork. And she has signed it in her own way. And let the record of this podcast show. Any future American pickers that this is a certificate of authenticity.

I have photos that I am looking at right now of Catherine not only painting these drop cloths, but stepping all over them. these drop cloths, but stepping all over them. I'm sure a forensic photography expert could probably match these footprints to the ones that are on Jerome's wall. And while I am not an expert in the field of cosmic drop cloths, we here at the Roadshow say these are absolutely authentic. And don't let anyone take them off you, Jerome, for anything less than their appraised value of $5,000. Roughly the value of 280 bolo ties. Now, before I go, what if we do the lapis lazuli bolo tie and there's one to its left that kind of looks like a tiger's eye bolo tie? What if we do the pair of them for 150 bucks would you do that for me 160 no you're not giving me anything here you have to understand

i'm looking at my negotiating works you want it 80 for 80 for one 5 000 for two for $80 for one. You wouldn't take 75 for one. I'm offering you $155 for the both. That's $5 off. Okay. We have a deal with that? Fantastic. Guess what, Joel?

I'm getting a bolo tie. You're getting a bolo tie. And guess what, Lyle Lovett? Lyle Lovett, if you're listening, you're getting a bolo tie and guess what lyle love it well i love it if you're listening you're getting a bolo tie you came to my event you're listening yeah he came to my given that you're listening one of the sweet have you have you interviewed uh lyle love it on on bullseye jesse thorne no i'd love to interview lyle love it and we wouldn't just talk about bolo a lot of people think that if lyle love it came on my npr show. And we wouldn't just talk about Bolo. I'm sending you a bolo tie.

You get a bolo tie. You get a bolo tie. No one else gets a bolo tie. This is the sound of a gavel. Exterminate. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jerome, you leave this case a poorer but richer man. How are you feeling? Yeah, kind of poorly. Wow, somebody really stole some cushions from your Zen Center, huh? They did, man.

They came in and they left footprints and just got off with the goods. Catherine, how are you feeling? I'm ecstatic. I love Jerome so much. I'm happy to be right, though, in this case. You know what it says in the throne of the third heaven of the nation's millennium general assembly it's this huge spectacular tableau an altar surrounded by um surrounded by kind of tables and things like that and in in in big letters, it says, fear not. I think you guys have created a space that is similar in its awesomeness. And by that, I mean, its ability to create awe. So congratulations to both of you. It's an amazing thing that the two of you have created as artistic collaborators. May I echo that as well? And then just very quickly, a quick question for Jerome before we go. Joe Bird and the Field Hippies or Ultimate Spinach? Only in E minor. Thanks, Jerome.

I got to go take a walk. I don't know what's happening. I got to go. Just finish the rest without me, Jesse. Do swift justice without me. I'm walking around the radio station for a while. Catherine, Jerome, have fun on your journey through the many dimensions. And thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books. In just a second, we'll dispense some swift justice. First, our thanks to Elise O'Neill for naming this week's episode Hubble Jeopardy.

You can name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We put out calls for submissions there. You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJHO. And check out the Maximum Fund subreddit to discuss this episode. We're on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff. Our engineer in Maine is Joel Mann, program and operations manager at WERU Community Radio in Orland, Maine. You can

listen to WERU at WERU.org. Joel is also on Instagram. His handle is TheMainMan, M-A-I-N-E-M-A-N-N. This week's episode also recorded by Catherine's husband, Joel. This episode edited by Valerie Moffitt, and our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Now let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment. Benjamin asks, my partner calls the remote control the machine. I contend it's not a machine. What say you, Judge Hodgman? Only an E minor. That's it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO or email Hodgman at Maximum Fun dot org.

That's serious business, folks. We need your cases. Maximum Fun dot org slash J.J.H.O. or email Hodgman at Maximum Fun dot org. Put your phone number in there so Jen can give you a call if we if we want to talk to you about your case. Tell us if you've got home recording equipment of any kind, a mic on your computer, that kind of thing. No case is too small. Clearly. Clearly. Obviously no case is too small. Obviously.

Yeah. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.