Judge John Hodgman - Hunter-Gaveler

Episode Date: July 17, 2014

A couple plans to move out to the country, and can't agree on whether or not they should allow hunting on the new property. 

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, Hunter Gaviler. Claire brings the case against her husband, Brian. They've just bought a piece of property in the country and look forward to rest and relaxation there. Brian wants to do a little hunting on the property. Claire wants to keep it a place of peace. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Life is for the strong, to be lived by the strong, and if needs be, taken by the strong. The weak of the world were put here to give the strong pleasure. I am strong. Why should I not use my gift?

If I wish to judge, why should I not? I judge the scum of the earth, sailors from tramp ships, men who kill bats by smashing them with books, grown children who park on their parents' lawns, people who leave change for housekeepers as tips in hotels, or worse, leave nothing at all. A thoroughbred horse or hound is worth more than a score of them. Bailiff Jesse, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he prefers not to hunt with firearms, instead using sheer rhetorical power? I do. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? wrong. For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either you, Claire, or you, Brian, name the piece of culture I was paraphrasing as I entered the courtroom? Brian, you are the defendant in this case. You may guess first. I don't know. Okay. You have a guess, though. I can sense it. Stand by with your guess.

Claire, can you name it? Judge, I confess that I do not, but parts of that remind me of my favorite podcast. Which favorite podcast is that? Yours, of course. Oh, the judge can be flattered and bribed, but you are wrong in any case. Claire, do you have a guess? I really, really don't. It's a book. Yes, it's a short story.

I'll give you a hint. It's by Richard Connell, and it was published in Collier's Magazine in 1924. Now you got it, right? Yeah, I missed that subscription. It's been adapted into many films. Most notably in a film version titled Surviving the Game starring Rutger Hauer

and Ice-T. Now you got it, right? Have you never read The Most Dangerous Game? I will put that on my queue that provides me videos. What is it? No, no, no. Don't watch Surviving the Game. You can read. I've never seen it, but well, you know what?

Maybe see it. Ice-T has invited me to be on his podcast, and I want to be on it, so I reserve judgment on that film. I think he's actually a very talented actor and a funny guy. You got invited on Ice-T's podcast? Yeah. Oh man. I haven't been able to make it happen yet,

but I really want to go. Is the invitation transferable? It's only, I'll bring, I'll see if I can get you in as a plus one. How old are you guys, Brian and Claire? I'm 28. Oh, okay. I am two years and

one day younger than Brian. So I'm 26. Thank you for not making me do the maths. You're welcome. And so it may be that this is not a story that is taught as universally as it once was. As you may know, I am 43 years young as of June 3rd. Jesse, did you read The Most Dangerous Game in high school? No. Or middle school? No. This is a classic short story, you guys, about a big game hunter who has gone, I believe,

to South America to hunt a jaguar. And his ship has a problem and he falls overboard. And then he climbs onto an island that is known locally as Shipwreck Island in the Caribbean and discovers that the island is owned and inhabited by two men, both Russians, one named Zaroff, the other his servant Ivan. And Zaroff is a big game hunter who has retreated to this island because he has killed every animal there is to kill. And hunting became boring to him until he discovered there was one thing left to hunt, the most dangerous game.

Can you guess what it is? Claire? Brian? I'm stumped, Your Honor. What's the most... Hunting manrian exactly so and so he tries to hunt the dude so the guy who you know the guy who climbs aboard the island realizes he is he he who was once the hunter has now become the prey classic classic dumb reversal style short story of the kind colliers was famous for in 1924 i was hoping for either Hemingway or Marissa Tomei's monologue and my cousin Vinny.

That's what I was holding out for. Does she have a hunting monologue and my cousin Vinny? I don't remember that. The one where he goes hunting and comes back and she was talking about, and the little deer puts his little lips to the cool brook and bam, a bullet rips through his head. That one. Well, that is exactly what this whole case is about, isn't it? Because Claire, you and Brian, who are married, a married couple.

We are. How long have you been married? About five years now. All right. Five and a half. Oh, boy. You are two years and one day, five and a half. You are really keeping track of time.

Very quickly, you lived somewhere else, but you are now buying a 17 acre parcel of land outside of Augusta, Georgia, where there is a home. And Brian would like to do some hunting on the land. And you have some problems with that. Is that not right, Claire? Yes, Your Honor. All right. What are your problems with the hunting?

Well, we have been living in an apartment for many, many years and we're seeking to purchase a rather sizable piece of property and a home so that we could get away from the hustle and the bustle of town and then just just wanted peace and tranquility and we had talked about um planting a garden for ourselves and a garden for the animals and planting particular plants that would attract different types of birds and learning the birds names and all their sounds and now you're learning that your husband just wanted to attract them so that he can shoot their brains out. It sounds like, yeah, it's like the creepy guy in the band, like slowing down, going, hey, little girl, want some candy?

It's the same thing with the deer. Hey, little deer, want some corn? Pa-pow! It's over. Brian, you're really deep into this theater of the mind thing. I love it. You know, Orson Welles adapted the most dangerous game with the Mercury Radio Theater. And, you know, right now you painted a lovely word picture that I'm concerned is actually going to cause people in different communities to go crazy and think we're being invaded by Martians.

Pow, pow! Brian, where did you live before you... Where do you live currently? Where is your apartment currently? It's in Augusta. In Augusta. It's nothing fancy, kind of central Augusta. One bedroom, two bedroom?

Two bedroom, two bath. Okay. What kind of experience do you have hunting Brian? Um, I've always, I've grown up outdoors, uh, but I've never done a significant amount of hunting. I've been out on a few different occasions, uh, with friends and family, but because I live in an apartment and I don't have a truck or anything like that to take care of an animal after I shoot it. And by take care of, you mean eviscerate. Eviscerate and cart around. To go have it processed so that you can utilize the meat. Because I don't want to waste anything for me.

It's not so much about the sport as it is the survival, the primal instinct of it all. Because we're starving and the grocery store is so far away. All right, now easy does it, you guys. I am also not an expert hunter, nor have I ever been hunting. So I took the opportunity to call in an expert witness, my former colleague at Men's Journal Magazine, an outdoorsman if ever I knew one, and a man who is frantically trying to remember how to unmute his Skype connection now because technology does not agree with him. Mr. Jonathan Johnny Miles. Jonathan Johnny Miles, are you there? I am here. Thank you.

You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. And we find you now in the wilderness of New Jersey. Is that not correct? This is correct. Yes. In the deep woods of New Jersey. Now, Johnny and I used to write for Men's Journal magazine, and I would write about fancy cheese, and he would write about prison breaks and people punching each other and other more masculine endeavors. And he and I would drink whiskey together from time to time and plot our escape from magazines. And I'm glad to say that Johnny has escaped from magazines because he's the author of two celebrated novels, one of which is called Dear American Airlines. The other is called Want Not. And is that coming out in paperback this year? That is. That just came out in paperback as we speak, I think. Oh, fantastic. And we speak right now on June 18th of 2014. So please go to your

local independent or chain bookstore and buy it because you're going to like what Johnny has to say about killing things with guns. Johnny, you are a hunter. Is that not correct? I am a hunter. Yes. You are a contributor to Garden and Gun Magazine. Is that not so? I am. And I also am a contributor to another magazine with an ampersand, Field and Stream. Whoa, the big one. Yes. You own firearms? I do own firearms, yes.

And what kind of animals do you hunt? Or have you hunted? I hunt deer, turkey, wild boar, dove, quail, squirrel, pheasant rabbit raccoon um and that could probably go into some weird species but that's that's probably the that's probably the the resume all right so brian you are you are talking to basically the the the zaroff who owns the private island of hunting right now and you have And you have washed, you have washed upon his shores and are, and are, and are at his mercy. What do you kind of, what do you want to hunt on your property there? Deer and rabbit. Um, I doubt we would ever get

any boar, um, but things along those lines. Now you had said, Brian, that you do not wish to hunt for sport. By the way, I feel like I can hear a bird chirping in the background. Brian, do you want to go ahead and kill that bird for me, please? You want to go ahead and shoot it? Well, I don't see it, so I can't shoot it. Outside in the tree. I like the, I like, I like the idea. Normally I would say please close your window, but I'd like to get as much

wildlife into this thing as we can. I think we have a second expert witness. Oh. So I apologize. That's the bluebird on my shoulder. Yeah. That's weird. That's the second Zippity-. Yeah. Yeah. That's weird.

That's the second Zippity-Doo-Dah reference in two weeks for this podcast. You wouldn't know because you weren't on the last one. Then we were just talking about robotic animals, but now we're talking about real animals that you want to kill. And you say you want to do it because of primal survival instinct? You're afraid that that bird's going to kill you or what's happening? Tell me more of your philosophy. I want to feel like I'm partially living off the land, taking off the top what the land and the property has to offer.

And do you garden? Not currently, but I intend to. Do you have any experience with firearms? Do you own a gun? I do own firearms. I have a pretty good amount of experience with firearms. Okay. Do you know the laws about taking deer in Georgia?

And are they different if it's on your own property or if it's on public land? There's no real difference. Okay. So do you know the laws at all? A little bit, yes. Do you know when deer season is? Not exact dates, but close enough. Have you ever shot a deer before? I have not.

I'm not. Look, first of all, I'm sure there are a lot of people who are listening to this podcast who are unable to even giggle at the prospect of hunting on one's own land as you are so lovelily doing, Claire, because they find hunting to be so morally abhorrent that they are currently turning off this podcast long before I even said this. I am essentially neutral on this subject. Hunting is not for me, nor do I feel a particular call for it. But I think when done responsibly, it doesn't hurt me.

It just hurts those animals, I guess. And I am definitely in favor of people doing, within reasonable constraints of safety and public good, whatever they want to do on their own damn land. So that's how I feel about that, everybody. And if you want to take that up with me, you know where to reach me online. But what I'm asking you about, Brian, is not so much trying to trap you into confessing that shooting animals in the head is wrong or right or anything else. I'm really just trying to determine how much of this is a passion of yours, a longstanding passion, and how much of it is an

aspiration. If you were to say, what would your answer to that question be? Is this an aspiration to hunting or is this something that you've grown up with and want to continue doing? It's something I've grown up around. I have had over the years multiple friends who do this sort of thing, family members, and just have never had much opportunity to take part in it. I don't know if I can quite say a passion. I want to, but I don't know that I can quite say it's a passion. Well, by passion, I don't mean bloodlust. I just mean to say something that you know well

and love and want to continue to do now that you have the space to do it. But instead, it's more of, it sounds to me like it's more of a case of, I got this land now. I've always wanted to explore this world a little bit more deeply. And I'd like to go out there and shoot some things. Does that sound more or less like your position? Close. Claire, when you married Brian, did you know that he was a bloodthirsty monster? No, sir. I just chose to see the sweetness in his face. Oh, Claire, you're great. Are you both from Georgia?

Are you both from Georgia? I'm not. Brian is. Brian's grown up around here. In fact, Brian lives a whopping mile and a half away from where he grew up as a kid. So moving out to where we're going to be in the country is about the furthest Brian's ever going to move. Where are you from? Smarty Pantsville, USA?

Yes, sir. No, sir. It's actually that I'm from everywhere and nowhere. I moved around a lot growing up, but I never lived in any one place long enough that I can say this place defines me. How come you moved around so much? Military? No, sir. To be honest, I had parents who were gifted at making bad decisions and running from those decisions with their six children in tow. Whoa.

Well, that sounds like it was a you have quite a story to tell. And thank you for sharing even that much of it. Did you did you serve in the military? Is that why you're calling me, sir, all the time? No, your honor. Well, that's okay. I was kind of enjoying it. I was just trying to get a sense of who and where you were from. But you never had land growing up, so you never had a place to kill a thing. No, sir.

In private, where no one could stop you. Just the little crickets that I squished and feel bad about now as an adult. Johnny Miles, you're on the line. You didn't start out as a hunter, but you became one. Maybe you can articulate a little bit about what hunting means to you. I can. I was an accidental hunter. I was not raised in a hunting family. I killed a bird accidentally when I was 12 years old. It was a pretty searing moment. I had a BB gun. I was going to say, you killed it accidentally by shooting it, I think is what you mean. Yes, yes. Well, I suppose I mean accidentally in the sense that I didn't know what would happen

when I aimed the gun at the bird. So accidentally in a sense, I didn't mean to kill it. I just meant to shoot it. And I understand that that's an odd distinction. But I had a BB gun. I was, I think, 12 years old, 11, 12 years old. And I was shooting cans. I got bored. I saw this dove.

And it was on a tree branch in a neighbor's yard. And I shot it. Sure. Well, it was a dove tree branch in a neighbor's yard, and I shot it. Sure. Well, it was a dove, goddammit. That's right. What else are you going to do with it? And instantly, I didn't know what I had done, but I realized I had done something of great import.

I mean, cosmic import, and I jumped the fence into this yard, and I should know that this was a big deal for me because the neighboring yard was – according to neighborhood rumor, there was a schizophrenic who lived there who had murdered his father and also sunbathed nude. So to go into this yard was a big deal for me. And I went and I fetched this dove that I had that I had killed and I was crying I was I was absolutely weeping and I knew that if I I was raised Catholic I should say that I knew that if I didn't eat that dove I didn't if I didn't make use of it it would be a great sin so I took it home and that's why I wear this that's why I wear the skin of my victims. You guys.

Exactly. You see, you understand this there because that, that absolves, I don't want to sin. I didn't know what to do because I was in those days we were called latchkey kids. You know, the kids who came, who came home and their parents weren't there. I didn't know what to do. And I would make myself, the only thing I knew how to cook were those Triscuit pizzas. They were on the side of the Triscuit box. There were instructions. You just put something on a Triscuit, and you put it under the broiler.

Usually cheese. Usually cheese, not usually dove. But I put the dove, and dove are very easy to clean. Basically, you pull the skin apart, and suddenly there's there's breast meat and that's all there is and i and i put the breast meat on a triscuit and i put it in the broiler and it might even been a toaster oven and i'm weeping the entire time and this is my penance but when that that triscuit dove pizza penance pizza is done. I eat it. So two things occur to me.

One is that this is delicious. This is absolutely so good. The other thing that occurred to me as I suddenly understood, again, at the age of 12, that I have been existing under a delusion about where meat comes from. Nobody ever told me. It was never clear to me that these are living animals that we're eating and that if we're eating meat, this is what happens. They die, and then we cut them apart and we eat them. And it was the most tasty meal.

I don't want to overstate it, but I don't want to understate it. It was the most tasty meal, but it was also the most enlightening meal. Because until that moment, I'd never understood what it was that I was eating. And in that moment, I understood, holy crap, this is big. This is really, really big. Well, there you go, Brian. Are you ready for that kind of personal transformation? I am. You're going to be eating a deer triscuit while crying. Are you ready for it? I think so. Now, I forget if I got an answer to the question, and I apologize because it was a big one. Have you shot a deer?

I have not shot a deer before. Have you shot a rabbit? I have not shot a rabbit. Have you shot a man? No. Have you, have you killed an animal with a gun or any other way? Um,

I've killed some squirrels in the backyard before. With a slingshot? A spade? A hoe? A squirrel trap? A poison? A BB gun. A BB gun.

Did you eat those squirrels? I did not. Did you not take advantage of the great recipe from Mary Land's Louisiana Cookery for squirrel head pot pie? My second favorite printed recipe in the world after how to cook an owl. Johnny Miles, you know how you cook an owl? How do you cook an owl?

Please. You pluck it and you clean it. And then you quarter it and then you cook it as you would a blackbird. That's the recipe. That's the recipe that's the recipe look it up maryland's louisiana cookery well looks like i cornered you into into into your into your not hypocrisy but but naivete a little bit there brian let's turn to you claire claire are you a vegetarian i am not do you know where food comes from? I do. I mean, meat food, to be specific? Enough to know that if I knew more,

I would have a difficult time eating it. Well, here's the question, though. You are absolutely right. If you are a carnivore, the more you know, the worse you feel, typically. That was the original title of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle. Isn't that right, Johnny? That's exactly right. That's what I thought, right? For editors, yes.

The more you know about sausage, you feel bad. But the reason you feel so bad is that most animals that are raised for food that come to your grocery store are treated terribly. True. You're aware of that, right? I am. You like bacon? I won't lie.

Of course. I do. Yeah. Don't even pretend. Of course you like bacon. Bacon's good. Of course. It's delicious. course you like bacon. Bacon's good. Of course. It's delicious.

Morrissey likes bacon. Are you getting your bacon from small, sustainable farms that are raising heritage breed pigs that are allowed to free forage? I buy the really tasty bacon from the supermarket with lots of pepper on it. It's quite good. Do you know if those pigs have been factory farmed or not? The label doesn't say, so I don't know. Yeah, if it doesn't say, then I bet you it is. If they're not bragging about it, they're not going to put it on the label. If I knew, I probably wouldn't eat it. Yeah, well, factory farming of pigs in particular is a

real crime in this country because it is beyond inhumane. Or forget inhumane, in poor kind. It is beyond mean and awful to the pigs. But it is also ecologically devastating to the communities that live around these essentially unregulated poop factories that dump all that pig's will into the watershed. So there's that. And cows, you know, the point is that a lot of the meat that you eat, if it is coming from big factory farms, you would not be happy seeing the lives that those animals led.

So would you not be happier to enjoy a venison burger knowing that that deer had lived pretty much a good amount of its natural life foraging in your own backyard? Aside from the fact that I don't prefer the taste, I don't really like it. I prefer the taste. I don't really like it. Aside from that, I can appreciate the beauty and the poetry in that. I just don't want to know. I just don't want to be attached. I want to eat my food to eat it. I don't want to eat my food to be emotionally invested and to be guilty. Well, I mean, I appreciate choosing ignorance because bliss usually goes with it. That's that saying, right, Johnny?

I think that's, yeah, I've heard that. I know that when I've watched documentaries previously about, as you point out correctly, so the poor treatment of the animals and how that food is brought to our tables that i have had a difficult time eating enough and eating well for weeks after seeing that well and please understand that i am no i am not i am not claiming to be a saint. I am a carnivore, and like every carnivore who has not killed an animal personally beyond a bug, I am by definition a hypocrite.

Do you know what I mean? I own that, and we are all ignorant of where the food comes from because there's sin attached to even that edamame bean that you're getting because of the packaging, the shelled edamame bean that you get at a nice Whole Foods or whatever, the packaging and the labor practices that go into that may not be good for everyone in the world. Do you know what I'm saying? And certainly I bought name brand bacon before in my life too, as well as the, as the fancy pants stuff that came from pigs that were, that were, that were not merely raised humanely,

but, you know, read to at night, you know, and, and, and, and,

and, and, and got to watch all four seasons of the wire before they were killed, which is all that matters in life. Four seasons, right, Johnny? Yeah, that's correct.

Jump in. Well, I want to jump in because I feel that Brian is getting a little bit of a raw deal here because I think Ryan. I just spent the past 20 minutes yelling at his wife. Why is Ryan getting a raw deal? Brian getting a brush. I think Brian is – I think he is trying to make an honest connection between himself and his food. And I think that's a wonderful thing that we need to encourage because I think there is an honesty in hunting that when you are the one responsible for taking the life of this animal on a very shallow level you do not leave you know you do not leave food on your plate you do not leave meat on your plate it's absolutely spiritually and and and logistically and

physically it's too much you you eat it all because yeah that's that's what it means something that's why i eat bacon off the floor even i'll eat bacon off of other people's plates at the restaurant if they left it behind because of because of philosophy yes yeah well there is a philosophy there and and i agree i do agree with you actually i'm not i'm not i think i think brian is trying to trying to get to an honesty in that relationship. And there is something that if you are a carnivore, and to be a carnivore is to be part of death. It is to be part of that cycle. And we in the modern age have been able to insulate ourselves from that.

And that is wonderful. It makes life very easy for us. It makes daily life and feeding our families and feeding ourselves operable. hunt and when you look that death in the island when you look at the destruction that you have done it is a responsibility and it is it's a really important responsibility it it it it brings a lot into into perspective and and i think brian should pursue this. Well, I think, OK, no, I appreciate that. But let me let me make another point for for those of us who who agree with you philosophically. read a beautiful, a beautifully crafted magazine article about one's loss of innocence after shooting a dove in their schizophrenic nudist neighbor's backyard.

And to go through the cathartic weeping with you, and then and then feel good about making some smarter choices in terms of where they source the meat that they're going to eat. But I don't necessarily then feel the need to go out and start shooting doves in my own neighbor's backyards or anywhere else. Because while I think Brian and poor Brian is being so quiet over here while the two city folk talk it out. But Brian is saying he doesn't want to do it. He doesn't want to hunt for sport. But honestly, none of us would be hunting if we were to take up arms or to follow the Ted Nugent example, ecologically and humanely ethical food all around us. And so if it's not for sport and it's not for need, then is it not merely, are you not merely killing for therapy, personal growth?

That's a very good point. Oh, Georgia understands me now johnny miles georgia and massachusetts are ganging up on you okay need yes uh and that's sort of like saying that if you can afford that that someone to clean your house then you don't need to learn how to do it because you don't have the need. New Jersey comes back swinging. But you're not a New Jersey boy.

No, I'm a Mississippi boy. You're a Mississippi boy, yeah. But the idea is that there are many things that in modern life allows us to have other people do for us. That doesn't mean it's right and that doesn't mean that it gives us a clearer perspective on what our own life is. I mean, we are creatures who eat meat, who kill and eat meat. And if we don't face that honestly, I think we're missing something in our own sort of existential record. Yeah, I think that rabbit would want to die so that we could figure that out for ourselves. Well, they're okay. So we'll talk about – You know I'm just poking at you. No, I do. I do. But we talk about farming. Well, they're – okay. So – And we see on a menu that something came from such and such farms, and we feel good, and we get the story of the farm.

But in hunting, it's not about the farmer, and it's not about the hunter. It's not about the human being, is what I'm saying. It's about the animal. You listen to hunters talk about the stories, and it's about the animal. It's about the deer. It's about its life and how it died, not how it was raised, not how it was ultimately – I mean we talk about hunting or farming. We're talking about keeping an animal hostage and then ultimately executing it. That's what farming is.

In hunting, it's sort of random assassination. But the story is about the animal. And I think that's something essential, too, that the animal that gives its life for you to have its meat is an integral part of this. Not the system, not the farm, not the human being, the animal itself. Well, I would say that that certainly

meet for anyone to chew on no matter where they come down on this issue. Brian, are you chewing over this cud right now? Does this enhance your feeling and desire to hunt more? Does it decrease? I mean, he's making a very eloquent argument in your favor. Does it decrease? I mean, he's making a very eloquent argument in your favor. I have been very intently chewing this over. And it has been a little bit of a self-discovery journey, listening to some of these feelings and emotions being put into words that I can relate to. Claire, does Johnny Miles' very poetic and, I think, compelling argument about the moral beneficence of hunting move you in any way? It does quite a bit. I can appreciate the

grace and the beauty in those words, and I don't disagree. I just don't necessarily want to know about it. And when it's happening, it can happen. I just don't want to be riddled with grief. I don't want to be wringing my hands. I just want it to happen and to go away and to come back and nice little neat white packages in my freezer. And there it is. I know how it got there. I'm grateful that it's there so that he can eat it. I don't want to have to know. You want to be like a mafia wife. He's like, oh, that's always good to know that there are a few stacks of a few thousand hundred dollar bills

in my freezer when I need them. I don't need to know where it came from. I just need to know it's there. No, I just, I should say you want to be like a mafia wife or, and, um, or any other American who wants the food to materialize, but you're, so you're saying that it's okay. If, if Brian goes off and, and kills a deer or a rabbit and has it's processed and everything else, you simply don't want to know about it. And let me ask you this. Can you hear gunshots or is that going to be a problem on your property?

Because we both enjoy target shooting, the sport, the practice. I don't need to know the difference. If it goes on, pow, pow, maybe it's a target. Maybe it's a can. Maybe it's a bottle. Maybe it was something else and he's gone to the processors or running errands. I just don't need to know. I didn't want it to happen originally.

And then I thought how selfish of me to say, oh, I want to be Snow White, you know, playing with the little rabbits and the birds and the garden and then not let him have any fun. That's not very kind. So I thought we should have a compromise. And he didn't like my compromise because he said it was impossible to keep a secret from me. Well, now, wait a minute. This is a pretty good compromise, Brian. Why aren't you going for it? Well, the initial compromise that we had talked about was she didn't want to know anything that it would literally just materialize or she'd be really upset. And we will have a sizable amount of property, but it will be really easy to hear a gunshot.

Yeah, but she just said she doesn't mind. She'll just think of it as target shooting, except the target happens to be a little fuzzier than normal. I think your wife is saying she will willingly deceive herself with regard to the sound of gunshots. So what else would you have to hide from her? Well, in the past, we've had other issues that arise and she doesn't always easily deceive herself that she'll say she'll stick her head in the ground and it doesn't always happen. And when a gunshot goes off at 6 a.m., you know, before dawn or whatever, it will be harder to deceive herself. Are you talking about how she ended up going back on her word to turn a blind eye to your many, many bank robberies and affairs?

That too. What evidence do you have? Sorry, go ahead, Jesse. Brian, how are you going hide like if if if we if this compromise went through how could you reasonably hide the uh cleaning and serving of the meat of these animals like would you just tell claire that you went down to the stop and shop and and you picked up the carcass of a. The deer fairy comes and visits all the freezers in Georgia. And she hits the fridge in the freezer with her magic wand.

And then neat little white packages of deer magically appear. I'm not sure this is someone you want to move out into the woods with, Brian. She seems to have a rich inner life. Yes, please pity him. with Brian. She seems to have a rich inner life. Yes, please pity him. Is there anything that you would prohibit Brian from doing that he wants to do? Think about it while I ask

Brian. Is there any aspect of the hunting that you aspire to do on your property that would be inhibited meaningfully by Claire's qualms at this point? a gunshot before dawn, how that situation is handled in taking the deer or whatever it may be to go get processed, keeping her in the house, that sort of thing, when she obviously knows what's going on and, you know, trying to keep her head in the sand. Well, can you build a shed? We'll call it a bloodshed on your property. No.

There's a bloodshed. There's a stable slash garage slash workshop area. But if it's just passed on and you just lift it into the truck and drives it away to be processed. Who knows? I don't have to see its little eyes rolled back and its sweet little lips all curled up in its lifeless body. Oh, geez. I don't have to know.

All right. Do you still want to go hunting? I do. All right. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on a second. You want to go hunting? I do. All right. Hang on. Hang on a second. You want to go hunting. And basically the only reason that there's a conflict here is that Claire is saying,

as long as you keep it reasonably far away from my life, it's okay with me. But you don't believe her because you think that you're going to shoot, shoot a deer or a rabbit before dawn. And the whole tune's going to change once she figures it out and she's going to be mad and upset. Right. I think that's a potential. Um, I think the first couple of times something like that happens, um, it will be more difficult as it goes on. I do think it will be much, much easier. Yeah, well, you could just send me out and say, spend the evening with your girlfriend and go out of town on a girls weekend or something and come back. And I come back with my toes painted and, you know, a little pep in my step in a concert that I

went to and feel really good. And then that's all. I don't have to be there when it happens. By the way, you guys, I'm coming to Atlanta in September. September. Yeah. I'll be playing Atlanta, doing a comedy routine on 6th September at the Erickson Clock Factory in Atlanta, Georgia.

Are you going to come to that, Claire? I was planning on it. Okay, good. Will you bring me some frozen venison if I find in your husband's favor? I don't know how it would make the trip. A little cooler. A little cooler. We'll do it.

Yeah. Something might accidentally happen to it. No, honestly. Something might accidentally happen to it. No, honestly, honestly, if it has been respectfully taken of its life and respectfully dealt with, it would be my honor to carry and transport it and present it to someone else. Thank you. Thank you for that. And we'll see what happens. I think I've heard everything I need to make my decision in the case, but before I go into my bloodshed to go down into my, to go down into my killing lair and,

and, and, and mull this over under cover of dark Brian, I would like you to explain to Johnny what firearm you intend to use for your hunting and what other kit you have to make your dream of killing a reality so that Johnny can evaluate indeed whether or not you are ready to undertake this whether you are prepared enough to undertake this. All righty. Um,

because it's, uh, it's not a giant track of land. Um, I plan on using a 12 gauge shotgun, um, for the majority of the hunting on the land versus a rifle. Well, that's fine. Are you talking about deer hunting with a slug then on a 12-gauge? Either a slug or buckshot, but probably a slug. Okay. And then you're talking to use are you talking about

um using a 12 gauge for the rabbit as well right yes well you can do that that's fine i think a 20 gauge is probably a better rabbit gun um you know ultimately you are a hunter who's going to want to eat that and so you want as little shot as possible in the meat so right um you know you have to uh think about that i think like a 20 gauge uh model 1100 is is in my opinion the best rabbit gun there is as far as for deer johnny you're not good you're not buzz marketing certain kinds of rabbit guns on my podcast are you i'm not getting any money from that i would never do that no all right good um but i i think um as far as deer goes um you know uh uh georgia is a it's a rifle friendly state so um a rifle be good i mean ultimately look here's what you want to do you want to be able to you are hunting and you're hunting for the right reasons. You want to kill the animal as quickly and as humanely as possible.

You want this to be, and you're choosing your weapon in order to get that done. And that's ultimately what you want. So, you know, that's the most important thing. Will a slug from a 12-gauge shotgun cause a deer, shot in the right place, cause a deer to suffer or die more or less immediately? The shot in the right place will die almost instantly, almost immediately, and completely in accordance with what we think of as the humane standards that we have for farm-raised animals. That is part of what a hunter wants to do. A hunter wants to kill as cleanly and as instantly as possible. The hunter never wants the animal to ever know that the hunter existed.

Do you think he would have a better shot with a different kind of firearm? So to speak. Better shot, get it? I'm a writer. Yeah, I think there's arguments that could be had. But I think with a 12-gauge slug, I think that's a pretty good weapon for a deer, depending on the shot and depending on the distance.

And that becomes a matter of judgment for the hunter. And the hunter always, I feel, and this is what I tell my son who's becoming a hunter, I should always err on the side of, if I'm not completely certain of that shot, I'm not completely certain that that animal will ever feel it or know it, then don't take it. Don't take it because there's tomorrow. Now, after that animal is killed, and again, I have not necessarily found in your favor, Brian, because I'm relying on your answers to Johnny's questions here because I don't know how to ask the right ones. When that deer is killed, you have to do some stuff.

What questions would you ask Brian to ascertain whether he is mentally prepared and equipment-wise kitted out to take care of a deer that he has taken down on his own property? The one thing I would ask Brian is, how much of the deer do you want? As much as possible. That's the answer I like. There are hunters out there who simply want the tenderloins, which is, you know, if you go into a restaurant and you see venison on the menu and it's all coming farm raised from New Zealand or places like that. There are hunters who just want that little, basically the tenderloin. What we know is a filet mignon for beef or the pork tenderloin. What we know is a filet mignon for beef or the pork tenderloin. But I want Brian to eat that entire deer.

I want Brian to, if he kills that animal, I want him to eat all of it. And I think my sense from what Brian's been saying is that that's what he wants to do. So with that in mind, let me ask, do you have a processing facility that you that you've scouted out to break down this deer for you? Yes. All right. Do you have a truck that can move that deer from one place to another? I can I can get my hands on a truck to transport the deer. But you don't. What kind of car do you own? I own a small hatchback. Okay, I have everything I need to

hear. I've heard everything I need to to get my car to station. Can I pop in here for one moment? The hatchback does not necessarily disallow him. Plastic

is a wonderful invention and anything that he can get into plastic and transport, he's fine. It does not have to be. There is a tradition, of course, in hunting of deer being splayed in the back of pickup trucks. It's not a necessity.

It's simply a tradition. Do you have enough plastic to wrap up a deer and put it in the back of your vw rabbit or whatever it is that would be poetic shoving a deer into a rabbit you have no idea you're two ways you're two-thirds of the way to a turducken then it's like a reverse turducken yeah yeah so when you say you have no idea in that creepy way, do I, do I mean to say that you've got access to a lot of plastic that you can use to wrap up dead things? Um, well, I was actually referring to the rabbit part. Um, but, uh, I can, I can get plastic.

All right. Good. Good. Said about. Said about as confidently as I would say it if I were in the middle of Georgia. I can get plastic, right? I subjectively. If he's shooting rabbits, plastic does not come into it. No, but I'm talking about deer.

Forget about rabbits. I'm talking about deer. But rabbits are a beautiful thing. I think they should really hone in on those rabbits because that's good family meals. That's, yeah. That's the one that's really going to make Claire have a problem. Even I quail before eating rabbit.

I'll eat quail before I eat rabbit. All right, enough jokes. Johnny, let me tell you something. The read I'm getting off of Brian is that this guy needs to go out a few times, maybe on his property, with an experienced deer hunter and log some time out there, taking down and then figuring out how to transport deer properly. Do you disagree with me? No, I agree with you fully. And I think there's something about Brian. I love what I've heard from Brian is a guy who wants to hunt for the right reasons. And I have spent my life, I've

met a lot of people who want to hunt for the wrong reasons. Brian's not one of them. This is a guy that we need in the world who understands the natural cycle and understands he, his heart's in the right place. Yeah, no, I think that he's a guy we need in the world. I'm just wondering whether he's a guy we need in the woods with a gun, not knowing exactly what he's doing. That's not something the world always needs more of. You're right. Do you have a brother or a cousin or an uncle or a, or a cousin or an uncle or an aunt or a niece or someone who's done a lot of this, Brian, who can show you the ropes a little bit? I do have a brother that's well-seasoned. All right.

I think I've heard everything I need to. Wait a minute. Hold on, Brian. I totally missed it. I totally missed it. I totally missed it. Thank you, Jesse. Thank you, Bailiff Jesse, for catching Brian in that incredibly creepy choice of words. I do have a brother that's well-seasoned, and we can't wait to have him for dinner.

The name of the book is To Serve Man. All right. Well, I'm closing the book on this case. I've heard everything I need to hear. I'm going into my bloodshed and I will deliberate there quietly until you send the lotion down in a basket. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Claire, how are you feeling about this case right now?

I feel that the judge is fair and he has an excellent sense of humor and also that he reads my husband very well. Brian is good and noble and his intents are pure. So I feel also that he has heard me and my desire not to want to be part of it or know what it is. How are you going to feel the first time that you tuck into a family meal of bunny rabbit? I will prepare it respectfully. I will be thankful for the animal and trust that it was, that its life passed with honor and that it was dealt with respectfully and be grateful for the food. I will serve it to other people, though.

What are you thinking, like a fricassee? I'm just not going to eat it myself. I'm not even 100% sure what a fricassee is. Brian, how are you feeling right now? I'm actually feeling a little enlightened by some of this commentary. It's been a bit of a self-discovery. I'm not usually one who has the right words to express how I feel about something, but I do feel like the words that have been spoken today have really hit the nail on the head. Well, that's why we're working to put a gun in your hands, Brian.

Yay. Claire, Brian, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say in just a minute. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In.

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you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. You may be seated. Well, here's the thing. I mean, there's not a lot of dispute here to have. Brian wants to hunt on his own property, and Claire is basically saying, you go for it. I just don't want to be a part of it. And you know,

you're a young married couple who've been married for a few years and you're still learning how to Johnny miles. What are you making over there? Whiskey sour. What is going on? Gin and tonic. We're supposed to hear that in my friend. Yeah.

You don't understand. Look, you are, look, you are a wonderful voice of authenticity from the country parts of this world. But until you know how Skype works proper, you better get some learning on my podcast. I'm sorry, man. I'll do better next time.

All right. No, you go on. And what are you drinking? That's just a little Canadian whiskey and ice. That's all. And I just want to point out to our listeners that it's only 8.30 in the morning. So anyway, moving on.

This is the... I feel like I'm in Country Bear Jamboree all of a sudden. We got someone pouring whiskey in one line and a bird chirping in the other line, and all this talk about killing. It has nothing to do with Country Bear Jamboree. It's like a Hemingway short story.

Well, the point is that there isn't a lot of dispute. You say that you're cool with it as long as you're not a part of it. And as I was saying, you guys are both a young couple, relatively newly married, and what I hope are long and happy lives together. You're figuring out how to meld the different passions of your lives into one life together. And sometimes those passions and those journeys that you need to undertake are very personal.

And then they make sounds and involve blood that the other person isn't interested in. Obviously, you know, Brian, I can't stop you from hunting on your own property. And clearly my priority here is to make sure that what you do, you undertake safely and with as much caution as possible, both to your safety and to the safety of those around you and to the safety of your marriage. of the Johnny Mileses of the world, and the testimony of your brothers and cousins and other family members who may not all be boys about what the process of hunting is like. And so you are in for some kind of surprise, whether rude or enlightening or transcending. You have your own tears to go through as you eat a dove upon a

triscuit. And maybe that will confirm to you that you are on the right journey, or maybe you will change the journey you take. I don't know. That's for you to decide and figure out. But I also point out that there is another journey that you are undertaking when you go out into the woods to hunt, and that is the journey back with the blood on your hands to face your wife, who of course is going to know that you just killed Thumper or Bambi or both. You, Claire, are an incredibly gracious and thoughtful person and someone who's being very kind to her husband as he goes through something that you

don't feel entirely comfortable with. And, you know, I could make all sorts of comments about how you're like a typical American who doesn't want to know where her meat comes from. But honestly, at the end of the day, that's not such a bad thing. And you're letting your husband explore a different way. And's great and that's fine the problem here brian is that you don't trust that when you come home that claire is going to hold up her end of the bargain you are afraid that she's going to go back on it in in some way that will be uh that that will that will undo the arrangement um that she's not going to, she's going to burst into her own tears as you're eating your dove triscuit pizza or whatever. And I wonder if perhaps that may not be more unendurable for

you to contemplate than taking the life of an animal. It should be. Your wife's feelings should matter to you. But I think that, you know, part of what you're going through here is, well, you're entrusting yourself with the lives of these creatures that you're going to kill and eat. And you're also being entrusted with your wife's faith that she's in you and also her trust in you that you're going to respect her boundaries when you bring that food home. You also have to trust her that she's going to stand by her side of the bargain. I really do think she is. I really do think that if you kill and get some venison, that she will bring it to me at the Erickson Clock Factory in Atlanta, Georgia on 6 September. And you know I only want tenderloins. I don't want any of that other garbage because I am a total tenderfoot.

So with that warning, I am going to find in your favor, but also with that warning comes caveats. You need to go out with a more experienced hunter who has taken deer, and I think you should do that. How many times would you say, Johnny? I think I should actually go out with Brian. Can we work that out? I hope that's not one of your hollow city promises, because that would be good. Yeah, I would

I'm offering that. That would be amazing. You will be our guest. You will be our guest. So we're going to work out some time for because I was going to say, you don't have a Johnny Miles in your life the way young Johnny Miles jr.

Does, uh, to teach him not, not to simply maim an animal for, for, for laughs, but, but to kill it humanely as possible and so on.

Um, I will state that publicly. I would love to, I would love to come down and be part of that first. All right. Well, I would say, I would say,

don't, don't, don't take a deer until Johnny Miles is with you, and then he can show you what brand of freezer to buy and how to disguise a deer carcass as a love seat so your wife won't freak out or whatever else. And, you know, for heaven's sake, you know, the only gun I've ever shot is at clay pigeons on top of a mesa

with a bunch of wealthy people. And boy, that was fun. I have nothing against firearms when they are kept and used responsibly and obviously locked up when not in use. And, you know, just really, really,

really, I can't emphasize it enough. Be safe, right? This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. How do you feel, Claire?

I feel it was a fair compromise. I am honored by Johnny Miles' offer to come spend some time with Brian, and I think that instills even more faith and appreciation for that, and I am satisfied with that. Brian, it sounds like not only do you have a satisfied wife and a positive outcome, you also have a new mentor. It does sound that way. I'm excited about this. Well, Claire, Brian, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. It was great to have you. Thank you for having us. Thank you.

have you. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try

S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I Hmm. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit.

No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Meow.

Oh, geez, the cat's back. Just when I thought we were going to get something done. I was just feeling left out because there wasn't an animal in the background of my recording. I shouldn't have been a cat either. I'm just surprised. Cats don't go meow. They go, wah, wah, wah, wah, right before they throw up. That's what a cat does.

Well, listen, we have a couple cases on the dock, and we still have Johnny here. You want to clear them all out together? Yeah. Johnny, you want to pour to clear them all out together? Yeah. Johnny, you want to pour some more whiskey into that glass? Yeah, I'm doing that now. Oh, no. Oh, really? No kidding.

Just a lucky guess. All right. Go ahead. Here's something from Jeff. My brother Ben is an aspiring scientist and a sophomore at Rochester University. He's become a know-it-all about scientific matters and he'll call me out if I'm the least bit wrong. He's become a know-it-all about scientific matters, and he'll call me out if I'm the least bit wrong. Now he's taken it to a new level by being critical of the quote-unquote science shown in movies and TV shows that we watch together.

For example, when we watched the latest Godzilla film, the only thing he'd talk about was how radiation was depicted incorrectly. Oh, really? That was the problem with the movie? Yeah, I guess so. How did they depict the radiation? Was it like red bolts coming out of Godzilla's eyes? Kind of out of his mouth, but that's another story. That was the least of that movie's problems. I seek an injunction. Ben cannot focus solely on the science shown in works of fiction when talking about those works of fiction with others.

I want to have a discussion with my brother about the movie, not about trivialities. I think the problem in Godzilla that Ben probably had was that they depicted the initial nuclear power plant meltdown as a fast-moving cloud of smoke. And if they could just outrun this smoke monster from Lost and get through a door before it reached them, then they would be safe.

And I don't know, but I bet that's what Ben saw wrong in the movie. But even not knowing, I knew it was wrong, as so much in that movie was wrong. Most important that the main character had a name and personality that I cannot remember and was not designed to remember at any point during the movie. And was not Bryan Cranston, right? Yeah. I see Bryan Cranston in those trailers. I want that guy to be in the movie for all of it. No spoilers, but I would like to see an actor.

The thing about, Miles, did you see this thing? No, I've not seen this thing, but I know the theory of this thing, and I know where it stands, the aural radiation idea. I just found that the so un was an empty vessel and and a meaning and a meaningless placeholder for a real character that they that they moved rather conveniently from set piece to set piece and the thing that really struck me about it sorry about this jeff but these are these are the kinds of conversations i think you would like to be having about movies. The thing that really struck me about it was that in a movie like this from 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, even the previous Godzilla reboot, the hero of the thing, of course,

is going to be a scientist or a researcher or some sort of renegade. Even if it's a military person, it's going to be someone who bucks the system to figure out the real way to get rid of the main problem. And the military is always going to be portrayed as the, by the numbers, we're going to think of the most horribly, perilously destructive way to get rid of the problem that the renegade, the outsider, has to stop them from doing. And in this case, that was all turned around. The main guy was a rank and file soldier who followed orders and who did not buck the system in any way. And the one guy who was saying, please don't explode this terrible thing, ended up being told by the military, sorry, you're wrong. And they did it and they exploded the terrible thing and everything was fine. They exploded an atomic bomb in an American city and it was fine, everybody.

I was just never mind the inconsistency of the narrative. an enlisted soldier or recently, formerly enlisted soldier who is not someone who bucks the system or talks back, but follows order and gets the job done. And it occurred to me that it might be that this is a calculation on Hollywood's part and maybe a reasonable one and maybe a thoughtful one that there are a lot of enlisted people who are coming back from all from all this conflict in the world and they just want to see themselves represented on screen as doing their job and in a good light what do you think johnny miles i think there's a possibility i think we're also um we might be getting into the uh ricky schroeder uh franco zaffarelli rule with the champ, where, you know, the idea is that... By the way, I cannot believe that... How many of these have we done, Jesse? 164? 165?

A fair number. How could we get to 166 or whatever, and we've never brought up the Franco Zeffirelli-Ricky Schroeder rule from the champ? There is a rule on this. I'm not doing my job. Whatever Ricky Schroeder says and whatever, you know, Franco Zeffirelli

allows him to say kind of rules, but I do think there's a sense that this is what Ricky Schroeder says is what the world means in the sense that he is the underdog. He is the, you know, he's not an officer. He's Ricky Schroeder.

The champ is the officer. And so I think we need to understand that that is where that's where the narrative stems from. In most in most stories, that's true. But in the in the Godzilla, I'd like you to go see the Godzilla and, and look at the main character. He's true. Like there's never a moment that says,

I don't think we should do it this way. He's like, I'm on board with the mission. Let's go. It's interesting stuff. These, the point of the matter, Jeff,

is that all discussion of movies like Godzilla is really just about trivialities and personal obsessions. I can't, I can't overrule your brother Ben's personal obsession with how radiation works in movies. I'm not going to, I'm not going to establish a gag order. Because if, if, if I shut him down from talking about bad science and movies, then, then, then I'd be shutting myself down or Johnny Miles down talking about the Franco Zeffirelli rules. Yeah, but you know what? Here's the thing, though. There's a point in the Godzilla movies and there's a point in every movie, and this is in The Champ, when John Voight says to Ricky Schroeder, you know what you are?

And there's Ricky Schroeder and he's standing there in this racehorse, in this racing stadium. And he says, no, champ, I don't know. And Jon Voight says to him, you're a pain in the ass. And everything in life makes sense right then. And everything in Godzilla makes sense right then. Because we're all pains in the ass. And there it is.

And we're all pain pains in the ass. And there it is. And that moment is everything you need to know about Godzilla and Franco Zeffirelli and the champ and all that. If you don't have a care if you don't have a character who's a pain in the ass, who's disruptive to the story, then what you have is a police procedural. All right, let's move on. Yeah, there we go. Here's something from Benjamin. I write to clarify a point of celebrity etiquette.

I was recently eating dinner at the Russell House in Harvard Square when the always wonderful Eugene Merman came up next to me to order a drink. I was awestruck and I remained silent. He went to sit down with his friends and my voice returned. I wanted to approach him to very briefly let him know I love his work, but I didn't want to interrupt his dinner. Here's my question to you. When is it appropriate to approach a major celebrity in public? Are there contextual clues?

When is it more or less appropriate to interrupt what they're doing? I think it's a good rule of life to respect other people's privacy at all times. Because there are other people and they want to live their lives just like you want to live your life. It's a golden rule, everybody. Golden rule. Eugene and Eugene Merman is a major celebrity for a lot of people. And I would say that you don't you don't bother someone in a context in which you would not yourself reasonably tolerate being bothered. Right? Golden rule, whether they're famous or not. Would you approach, let's say Eugene Merman was not a public figure, but he had a huge bat in his hair, right? And he didn't realize it. And he was at the restaurant in Harvard Square next to you.

Would you go over to him and say, I'm sorry, no one seems to have mentioned you have a bat in your hair and it might have rabies? And if so, when would you choose? You would choose your moment carefully. You would wait until he wasn't obviously in the middle of a conversation. You would look at who he was talking to, if someone at the table was crying.

You would kind of get a good sense of like, oh, this might be a moment as I'm using the bathroom just to lean over and say, bat in your hair. I think for the most part, if you see a public figure and you find a time when you yourself would not be bothered being bothered, then it's okay to just lean over and say, I just want to say I really love your work. But you also know, in a restaurant in almost any circumstance, saying, can I take a picture with you,

is really ultimately making that celebrity feel like they're being turned into a trading card of some kind. Reaching over and saying to someone, you have a bat in your hair, is a moment of human contact that everyone feels good about, except for the bat. And the same is true if you compliment someone on their work, politely and in the appropriate moment, and usually not in front of their children. Johnny Miles, you disagree? Did you ever approach a famous person because you just couldn't help yourself?

I once cornered Joe Jackson once in a bar, and I had to tell him. I just said, I had to tell you, Joe Jackson, I love your musics. Now, it's an uncomfortable position, of your musics. Now, it's an uncomfortable position because you can't extract what you want from this personal being that is

in front of you. There's no way. You can't do that download. So you don't want to take, you want to give. You give a compliment. That's all. Taking time away from that person is not doing them a favor it's doing yourself a favor and then how you you know how you would feel bad you would feel bad if you

were in that person's position absolutely yeah but and yet you still want to make a mark you still want to maybe i don't know leave leave some sort of trace connection. And so it does become a kind of odd transaction. It is true that I would not say that I'm a major celebrity. But as someone who is on television, even a few times a year, if you come up to me in a bar and make an impression such that I remember your name, you will never die. You become immortal automatically. And I understand the impulse, but come on. Sometimes I just want to eat a cheeseburger and drink my Canadian club and shame alone. I find it very interesting. I was interviewing a celebrity not long ago who said that when people come up and ask... A major celebrity a major celebrity

yes yes and when i say a major celebrity i'm going to go ahead and say this i mean somebody who's engaged to jennifer aniston so right you know there we go yeah you were probably you were probably interviewing him in in advance of his starring role in the new hbo series the leftovers you have that's right right and what he said to me is that- Written by Tom Parada and co-created with Damon Lindelof. Go on. Damon Lindelof, yes. Who are both absolutely incredibly intelligent gentlemen.

They're terrific. Yeah, they are terrific. And what this man said to me, this man who will go nameless, was that what he found was interesting, that when people ask for photos, he would say, you know what? It's not a good time, but can I give you an autograph? And inevitably, people rejected the autograph. The autograph, therefore, is dead. What an interesting world.

Nobody will even accept the autograph. No, they just want a photo. They want a photo. Let's talk about that. That's crazy. Yeah. Well, it would be like someone shooting a deer and just wanting to put its head up on the wall.

Yeah, there it is. There it is. That's exactly right. It's a trophy. It's a trophy. It says nothing, and it says everything. Well, we're almost out of time. Jesse, who named this case?

This week's case was named by Samuel Ross. Thank you, Samuel. If you want to name a future Judge John Hodgman episode, follow Judge, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. It's at Facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. And follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, we want to hear it. Send it to Hodgman at MaximumFun.org or go to our convenient and easy web form that explains everything we're looking for at MaximumFun.org slash J-J-H-O. J-J-H-O.

I've heard from a lot of folks who have started listening to Bullseye, my public radio show, because they've heard me here on Judge John Hodgman, heard someone, we did a Jordan Jesse Go show actually with my brother, my brother and me the other day here in Los Angeles. So thank you to all of those folks. And, you know, if you're looking for some in-depth culture interviews with major celebrities like Eugene Merman, a multiple time guest on the program. A major celebrity. Check out Bullseye. I love Eugene Merman.

He's the best. And here's a little plug for me, John Hodgman. I want to let you know that I will be among many places at the Bottle Tree Cafe in Birmingham, Alabama on 7 September. Johnny Miles, you should come down for that one. That's going to be good because we'll be there with, I will be appearing with Jason Sims, the owner of the Sadness Tree from our Christmas episode last year and from many, many episodes a long time ago, an Alabama native himself. I'm looking forward to hanging out with him then.

And for those of you who have been asking online, the Akron Summit County Public Library appearance in Akron, Ohio. I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly. Maybe it's Ohio. In any case, that's on 22nd October. And that is free. That is free to the public. First come, first served. And I hope that all the people that major celebrity Eugene Merman and major celebrity Kristen Schaal and I, minor television personality John Hodgman, missed in Cleveland last fall, will come on down and say hello because that will be a fun event and we'll go hang out in Akron after, I guess we'll definitely do a meetup or something after that one. And Johnny miles,

we can find more information about you, your book, your habits, uh, and, and your writings all at Johnny miles.com J O N N Y M I L E S.com. Is that not so? That is so correct.

His new paperback novel or the paperback edition of his second novel, Want Not, is available now or almost as soon as now at all the major bookstores. And, Johnny, if we don't meet up in Birmingham, Alabama, for heaven's sakes, let's go to Oxford, Mississippi, right? That's a perfect place. Are you going to do a bookstore appearance? Are you going to do a bookstore appearance at Square Books in Oxford, Mississippi? Of course I will. That's heaven. That's heaven in a little kind of nut show.

All right. Everybody look at johnnymiles.com and go to Oxford, Mississippi when he reads from his book at Square Books. Hello to all the Hoewerths down there and to the John T. Edges and all my friends in Oxford. I'll come for you soon. Anything else that we need to say, Jesse? No, sir. Our show is produced by Julia Smith and edited by Mark McConville. And my name is John Hodgman. That was Johnny Miles, bailiff Jesse Thorne. Court is adjourned.

That is all. Maximumfun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.