Judge John Hodgman - I Declare a Hisstrial

Episode Date: December 17, 2025

Kate wants to adopt another elderly snake to replace their deceased pet Ember, but Wes is hesitant to open his heart again to another senior snake adoption. What is the optimal leg to pet ratio? Is it easier to give birth to something with no bones? Who is the placenta lady - should we be scared of her? More importantly, who's right? Who's wrong?It’s the holidays! Get your JJHo merch at MaxFunStore.com! Right and wrong caps, Pure Justice Smell candle, and cozy gothcozyclothes! And a ticket to see us in January at SF Sketchfest makes a LOVELY gift! Sunday, January 18 at Marines’ Memorial Theatre, on sale now!We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman!Thanks to reddit user u/haylstorm090 for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Join at $5 a month at maximumfun.org/join!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bail of Jesse Thorne. This week, I declare a hiss trial. Kate brings the case against her husband, Wes. Kate and Wes recently had to put down their elderly corn snake, Amber. Now they're ready to let another snake slither into their hearts and home. Kate says a senior snake is the way to go. Wes is opposed. He didn't have enough time with Amber. He's not. not ready for the heartbreak that comes with senior pet adoption. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. I'm banned for life at Doogley's Pet World, so I need you to go get me cat food, bat food, snake shampoo, and a hundred frozen mice. bailiff, Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Kate and Wes please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth?

and nothing but the truth. So help you, God, or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he himself uses snake shampoo? I do. I do. It's sensitive for when he's molting. Exactly. I mean, when I shed my scalp, I need sensitive snake shampoo in order to not irritate my scalp. Also, it's very good for maintaining those essential hair oils. Hey, Wes and Kate, it's nice to see you again. Of course, I know you from before. We've met before on Get Your Pets, My Every Now and Then Afternoon Streaming Talk Show where I interview people's cats, dogs, and other pets, including snakes.

But I'm not going to let our prior association cloud my judgment as I stand or sit before you. You can be seated as well. Let's hear this case for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favorites. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom? Kate, do you want to take your first guess or the first guess? you know what kate i'm going to give i'm going to give you two guesses how do you like that thank you your honor my first guess is my pre-assigned guess which is episode 170 of this very podcast called monte be monty python uh-huh uh-huh monte bel monte python that's a good guess hang on

let me write it down i almost forgot those of you on the youtube know i'm always writing these down and you can check for sure you can see i've written it down uh all right what's your second guess My second guess is one of the ads reads that are on the thrilling Adventure Hour podcast. One of the ads reads on the thrilling Adventure Hour podcast, thrilling Adventure Hour just having a wonderful, I dare say, triumphant return to the boards at the Bell House and in London with someone named John Hodgman rounding out the cast. All right. Wes, I gave Kay two guesses. I'm going to give you two guesses too. Okay.

You know, at first, it kind of sounds like something from Bob's Burgers. I can see somebody having some scheme or something. From the animated show, Bob's Burgers is what you're saying. Yes, that's my guess. The animated show, Bob's Burgers, not a different animated show. Bob's Burgers, got it. Okay. Yes.

Guess who? And I'll take my second guess and say something from Dicktown. How about that? Something from Dicktown. Let me write that right down. You're absolutely right. It is something from Dicktown. Now, am I going to give it to you, Wes?

I don't think so. Because you guess Bob's burger's first and that hurt my heart. No, that was great. It was a great guess. All the guesses were great, even though they were all wrong except for one. But I was looking specifically for episode 209 of Dick Town, in which my character, John Hunchman, is forced to go. into a pet store to buy a lot of supplies for Lance,

the juvenile delinquent played so wonderfully by Griffin Newman in the show. Dicktown, season two, episode nine, all are available on Hulu. Wes, I really am grateful that you thought of that, especially after your Bob's burgers guess. I'm going to continue to hear the case. I hope you understand. Good job. Yes, I do.

And by the way, Griffin Newman and I are reunited in a, very fun horror comedy short on Nebula streaming service called The Dinner Plan, directed by Patrick Willems and co-starring me, Miriam Shore, and Zach Cherry, among others. It's a really funny little thing that happened. We shot it last year, and it's available now on Nebula, which is an independent streaming service, which you can get if you want to see it. Okay, plugs are over. Let's get into the case.

Who seeks justice in the court of Judge John Hodgman? Who comes to bring this case before me? I do, Your Honor. Kate, as mentioned, we have spoken before on Get Your Pets. You, if I remember correctly, have a number of pets, a menagerie, you might say. What's the roster of pets you've got going currently? Okay, so we have two dogs, a cat, a turtle, a beta, and three fish tanks. Now, let me ask you, let me see if I can remember correctly.

Because when did we speak on Get Your Pets, would you say? How many times? We've spoken it a couple of times. Every time we get a new pet, I end up on Get Your Pets. Yeah. And the last one was probably over a year ago, right? The last one was about six months ago. All right.

Well, I count that as a year. Time has no meaning anymore. Now, was your pit bull named Rocket? That's right. Was your cat? And if I remember correctly, it was a three-legged pit bull, right? Yes. And you have a three-legged cat also named Sparks.

For Sparks, Nevada. And a tart, but also from Thrillian Adventure Hour. and a turtle named Hatch Green Chili in honor of New Mexico, the state in which you live, and a golden retriever named Cosmo, and three fish tanks full of aquatic trimps endlers and a beta fish named Phoenix. I'm cheating, obviously. Jennifer Marma gave me a run-down. I was going to be very impressed. What if I just did that off the dome? No, I've enjoyed meeting all of your pets before, but I can barely remember the names of my human children, never mind your animal pets. This case is about a pet that is no longer with you.

I'm so sad to say, Ember. Tell me about Ember the corn snake. Ember the corn snake was a foster, like a hospice foster that we took on. Basically what happened is we found a space in our house that was perfect for a tank. And I put some feelers out in the community to see if anybody had a corn snake that they were looking to re-home. If I had a dime for every time I saw a poster in Park Slope saying, hey, Anybody got any dying corn snakes on offer? Sorry to be crude about Ember who passed away.

Oh, it's okay. You put some feelers out, and Ember came into your life. Yes. He was on Foster from a lady who owns quite a number of snakes, and she gives them out to families who potentially have small children, and they might want a corn snake for a little while or maybe give it back. And you're in Albuquerque? No, we're in Los Alamos, New Mexico.

Oh, okay. All right. We're recording in Albuquerque right now in the podcast studio of Albuquerque. Wonderful. So you're saying these are nuclear snakes? Yeah, nuclear snakes, obviously. Mm-hmm. What's the name of the lady who's handing out snakes in Los Alamos?

Her name is Jan. Is that how she's known around town? Well, we call her Jan the snake lady. Jan the snake lady? This lady named Jan the. gives out snakes to families with children or potentially have children this is a wonderful how did you get to know jan the snake lady facebook facebook of course and jan when you if you had to estimate how many snakes jan is sitting on currently she has i i think somewhere between 15 and 20

snakes jane doing okay she's getting a little older which is why she's hoping to um give her snakes away um but yeah she's great but i'm presuming she's a she's a she's a very considerate snake owner and expert and not someone who has a problem over collecting snakes, shall we say? No, she really doesn't. She takes great care for snakes, and she's a very nice lady. Jan, the snake lady, thank you for your service in New Mexico and indeed throughout the world. So, Wes, Ember the Corn Snake came into your life.

I believe we have an exhibit A, a wonderful photo of Ember the Corn Snake. Maybe we take a look at that. those of you who are watching on our YouTube channel, Judge John Hodgeman Pod, can see this right now. If you're not, make sure to check out that YouTube channel and perhaps subscribe while you're there, not perhaps absolutely do it. Or check it out on our socials,

our Instagram, on the show page at Chodd Maximumfund.org, everywhere you get your exhibits. And here's a wonderful snake. Jesse, look at that beautiful golden snake. Oh, what a gorgeous snake. Ember looks like a real delight. Wes, tell me about ember the corn snake. Yeah, so when we got

him, he was, I think she was maybe 15 years old was kind of her guess, at least that. But yeah, he was a really good snake. He would, you know, you can kind of see him there. He has the, he's what you would call an AMEL morph for AIMONistic. I guarantee you I would not call this snake an AML morph. I don't know what those words mean. Could you explain?

So it's short for A melanistic. So a big thing with corn snakes is looking at various. morphs and, you know, people will breed them to look different ways. Wait, wait, wait, wait, let's just break this down one piece at a time. A, melanistic, is that the same thing as albino? Lacking melanin? Or? Kind of, yeah, yeah. So, so that is what it means lacking that pigment. And so it's like the darker black type pigments, pigmentation. You can see that he still had like the the orange and the red.

So that's something different. Right. That's because of the a melanistic gene or. Right. Okay. So, and that's why ember is such a, what a beautiful name for a corn snake that looks like a beautiful glowing orange ember.

Yeah. Now, morph. I know from animorphs. I used to work in young adult book publishing. But what is a morph in a snake context? So that is whatever, for coloration and pattern specific combinations

that have been bred into the snakes. So he was a pretty simple, I guess, morph. It's just that a melanistic. Is that how you began Ember's eulogy? Ember was a simple morph. But a proud morph and indeed a kind morph. I mean, look, I don't want to, I know that you're upset.

You've lost. When did Amber pass away? So that was in June. We had him put down. He hadn't been eating for, it had been a couple of months, I think. And we started to notice a couple of lumps and different spots along his body. And then sort of the most, I guess, disturbing thing was he was having some. Is it disturbing for the podcast, do you think?

Not if I describe it. It was thrashing. Not if I describe it to you an incredible detail. In light detail, light, yeah. But yeah, so he was, I mean, he would, he was kind of getting to the place where he would, you know, thrash around and it was something where we could clearly tell that he was in pain and something wasn't right. And you had to do the thing that pet owners, responsible pet owners, have to do that's very hard, is acknowledge that the quality of life that Ember was leading was not the quality of life that he was. deserved. And it was time to do the humane thing, as it were, ironically called humane thing and in having put down. So I'm very sorry to hear that. That's right. The thing about Ember is he

was a very sweet snake. He's pretty, of course, but he loved being handled, was very tolerant of the kids handling him as well. He was a really great snake. Anything you want to add, Wes, because, I mean, this debate is over whether you get a new snake and what age new snake you want to get. Do you enjoy Ember? Did you bond with Ember? Was Ember a kind morph? Was Ember a sweet morph? Tell me about Ember's day to day.

Yeah. So he was, I mean, he was a really good snake. You know, obviously, you get him, get him, when we first got him, we kind of had a little settle in. And we would see him disappear under his substrate, which, you know, at first we had him on newspaper. That was kind of the, we're like, okay, that's what we'll start with. And then as we got more comfortable, we got them some corn husk. That was what you saw in the picture. And he was really happy with that.

Well, I would imagine a corn snake would love a corn husk. I say corn. I meant coconut. Oh, that's okay. Yeah, but it was the, so, but he was able to burrow and go through all of his little spots. And, you know, we had his tank set up so he could go to the warm side. or the cold side and he had his water and he would, you know, do all of his

different things. Sometimes he'd get a little bath and he would, yeah, he had a good time exploring his environment and that was really fun to see. And it was fun to take him out and handle them and you know, corn snakes are known for moving around when you

handle them. Uh-huh. Not staying stock still, but slithering in a cute way. Yeah, I'll kind of slither up your arm. and then go, you know, you might have to be like, okay, maybe not in the hair. Ember was an interactive snake,

a genial, a genial morph. Yes. Yeah, very, yeah, he was active and he'd move around. And, yeah, it was really great to sort of get him out and interact with him. He's one of our best pets. Oh, I'm sorry that you had to lose him. He sounds wonderful.

Just out of curiosity, is a corn snake. What's the, what's the feet? What does a corn snake eat? Uh, mice. Nice. And you get them frozen. You get them frozen.

Mm-hmm. It's not the weirdest thing in our freezer. Well, now you ask, you, you, you pose the question. What is the weirdest thing in your freezer, Kate? Until very recently, I had about 10 frozen placentas in my chest freezer. This is big, this is part of your work as a dula, correct? Yes, this is, yes. Okay.

This isn't just a collection you're working on. Do they call you Kate, the placenta lady around town? They do. Oh, no. So until very recently, I was volunteering with a search and rescue dog team organization that trains human remains detection dogs. And they use placentas to learn the smell of decaying human material. It's a little gross.

Wow. It's fascinating. Do you also, in cats, Absolutely placentas? I do. What is that? All right. Let me let's now look.

This is like a melanistic morph. I need to break down some vocabia. So you are a doula. You help people who have just had babies, right? Yes. And the human placentas, I presume, are products of some of the pregnancies that you have helped families go through. Supported. Yes.

Some of them are. And you have them on hand. So why not offer them to? to local dog trainers who are training dogs to sniff out human remains. Terrific hobby. People donate them with the express intent of donating them to the... I was not accusing you of kidnapping placentas for your hobby. I understand.

They've been donated. And then... And placentas, for those of you who are listening and don't know, you might be a child. Maybe you can explain what a placenta is, Kate, before I do it... Placenta is... Before I mangle it, which is something you don't want to do to a placenta. The placenta is an organ. that supports the growth of a baby in utero.

And once a baby is born, the placenta is no longer needed, and it comes out with the baby and is honored or... Yeah, from experience, it's easier to give birth to something that doesn't have bones. Wait a minute. What does that have to do with anything? The placenta comes out. Oh, right. Okay. Yeah, no, okay. I thought you were saying that somehow people are giving birth to babies without bones. Because it was easier. I misunderstood. Got it. Okay.

You put the bones in later, John. That's what doulas are for. Oh, right. Doolists put the bones in babies afterward. Yeah, you don't want an amateur putting bones in your baby. So encapsulated placenta that Jesse just mentioned, I don't know what he's talking about, but you two are having a grand old time talking about it and making me feel left out. Please explain. I have heard Jesse's story about encapsulating placentas. basically um how i must have too i've known him for decades what have i what have i forgotten this time

all right so encapsulating placenta is essentially freeze dry freeze drying them and then putting them in capsules because some believe that consuming the placenta after giving birth is beneficial in various health ways many animals consume the placenta after they give birth they're carnivorous animals, consume the placenta after they give birth. Famously cats do that. My aunt Claudia was a doula. She's no longer with us, but she was a doula, a really righteous one. And she worked a lot of times with people who didn't have the money to hire a doula.

She was African-American and like it was very important to her to work with African-American women who might not otherwise have birth support. Right. But she also work for money for others, you know, to make a living. Right. And she had a placenta encapsulator in her house, and I was at her house one time in Washington, D.C. And I'm like, and I'm like, oh, Claudia, what's with this placenta encapsulator? And she goes, she goes, if these rich white ladies want to pay me to put their placenta.

Sentes in capsules. I'm not going to stop them. Anyway, please support the Claudia Booker Memorial Midwife Scholarship. We'll put the link there. It is training for women of color to become midwives and placent and not placentas, due less, midwives and doulas. So they can reduce the gap in birth, safety, and health rates. between white folks and people of color in the United States, particularly.

Thank you, Jesse. Yeah, thank you, Jesse. And thank you, Kate, for doing the work that you do. Wes, do you have a career? Yes, I'm an electrical engineer. I work for a particle accelerator facility. You're telling me that an electrical engineer that works at a particle accelerator facility has a special interest in owning snakes?

Believe it or not, yeah, yeah. And when you say that you're working in particle accelerators in Los Alamos, what you're really doing is your opening portals to other dimensions, correct? I don't think I can talk about that. Yeah, exactly. Perfect. What do you have frozen in your freezer? Frozen aliens from another dimension?

Oh, no. Mostly, it's just the mice and the... Just the mice and the placentas. Do you have any food in your freezer? I mean, human food? Well, I mean, the placentas. It used to have human milk in it, but not anymore. You used to have human milk in it.

Okay. Wonderful. Let's get back to the wonderful memory of Ember. Ember passed away, reached the end of his life. He was very well cared for it. You took him in Wes and Kate in a hospice type situation. You knew that he was at the end of his life. I don't know if we would really say that. We knew that he was elderly. We didn't think that he was ill. So we could have potentially had an additional five years, maybe even more. Right. Right. So you would like me to rule. in your favor against Jan the Snake Lady for misrepresentation of elderly snake and award you damages of $5 million. Is that correct?

It was an honor to take care of him in his last days. All right. I'm glad to hear that. And I'm sorry, even if you did know, it's always hard to prepare for a loss of a pet, never mind, a loved one. So good on you for doing that work and giving Ember a very lovely quality of life towards the end of his life.

But now, Kate, you're ready for another snake. And this is where the dispute lies. What kind of snake would you like to get, Kate? I would like to get another snake from Jan, this time a ball python. And you have a specific ball python in mind. Is that correct? Yes. The ball python's name is Aspen.

Let's take a look at Aspen right now here. This is Exhibit B. Wow. That's a beautiful animal. Incredible. Look at those spots. But I would say that this would be a melanistic ball python. Am I right, Wes?

Yes, he'd be a normal morph. I had a 50-50 chance. Typical. Let's not melanin shame. But I mean, it has got big black patches of variegated stripes and spots and so forth and beautiful. Melanin. This is what did you call it a typical morph? Yeah, typical or normal is what they would refer to.

basically kind of what you would find in the wild. Kind of what you would expect from a cartoon snake, right? Yeah. Yeah, more or less, I guess, yeah. Yeah, if you saw a cartoon of a Python, if you watched the jungle book or whatever, this is kind of let you imagine. It's like classic snake-looking snake. But one thing I notice here, it's in the lawn.

This is also from Jan the snake lady. Did you say, Kate? Yes. All right. And this is, I presume this is Jan's backyard. It's in the lawn. there's nothing near it to give you a sense of size other than grass. How long is this snake?

What's the size of Aspen? I would anticipate that he's between four and five feet long. Oh, okay. The distinguishing feature of Ball Pythons, or one of them, is how thick their bodies are. They're quite heavy. Hmm. Is Aspen a thick king? Yeah, Daddy's thick.

Yes. Is this the full size that Aspen will get? Do you anticipate? You said an elderly snake, so I'm presuming this is four to five feet is as big as Aspen's going to get, or will Aspen grow more? No, he will likely stay the same. He might get a little chunkier. To me, he looks a little tiny bit thin, but he will be about the same length. Oh, you're going to fatten him up.

You're going to fatten him up with mice and placentas, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And did you say how old Aspen is? We think he's about 15 years old, maybe 16, 17, somewhere in there. what's the what's the lifespan for a ball python 20 years would be really common but they could potentially live longer maybe more like 25 so you're looking at a life of five to 10 years potentially with aspen yes sounds pretty good to me west what's the problem with this idea here's a snake that lives it needs a home it's currently living in the grass this snake is dying to be shut up in a terrarium in someone's home.

Why not yours? Well, I think, you know, when we were planning on trying to get a snake the first time, we kind of came out of saying, oh, we have this space in our house. Counterpoint, no, you don't. Because you've already got, and I'm going back to my cheat sheet here, one three-legged dog, one three-legged cat, one turtle, one golden retriever, and three fish tanks and a partridge and a pear tree, it says here also. Yeah.

Well, I mean, you know, we had a little corner, right, where we're like, we were looking at it. We were saying, okay, we got new furniture and kind of shifted the space a little bit. So he said, oh, this would be a good spot for a corn snake. And so I think what I was envisioning when that sort of came out was, ooh, we can really like sort of take the time, go out, you know, get all the, the cage, get everything sort of settled, find a, find a snake that we really like. And then, you know, Ember came along and it was like, oh, well, this seems like this would be a good opportunity here. Right.

I mean, Jesse, you know what that's like. You ever move the furniture around in your house, Jesse? And be like, oh, that's a good place for a corn snake. Yeah. I mean, more often, I'm thinking ball python. Right. Yeah. Yeah, like a four or five footer.

I go, my little look at a spot in my house. So that's a good space for a five-footer. Sorry, Wes, we got a little distracted there. You told us about how you moved the furniture around and that inspired you to get a corn snake. But that doesn't answer the question what kind of snake you want now. I would look at either a corn snake or a ball python. Yeah.

Aspen is a ball python. Yes. It says here it's your favorite type of morph. No, not that one. Not that one. That's the next exhibit, I think. But. Oh, excuse me.

Let's go take a look at your favorite morph. Yeah. Those of you who are watching on YouTube, if you're not, get over there. You should check out this favorite morph. Whoa. So these are definitely, you know, different from the other one. So we went to a reptile show a month ago or so. And so, you know, we were able to get sort of a sense of the different types of snakes that we liked.

And so this was a from a breeder here in Rio Rancho. near Albuquerque. This is a beautiful snake with sort of Halloween colors. Yes. Over a white body and it says

here it is a yellow belly pied. I guess pie. Yes. refers to the pattern. Right. So the pied would be like the pie bulb pattern

where it's white with the blotches of the other morph that comes through and the other morph then for that one's the yellow belly. And in this case, yellow belly refers to its lack of courage in gunfights. That's right. Yeah, I'm sure.

Something that you'll notice is that that snake is of a reasonable, like, size. They've got some heft to it. A young, sellable. That was the first thing I noticed. When I see a snake, I'm like, hmm. So this is a, this seems like it's your mutual dream snake cake. it could be seen that way, yes. It's got a beautiful, it's a beautiful morph, and it's got a lot of heft.

It's not going to escape like a corn snake. Did Ember ever sneak out at night? No, but he was full ground. Okay. Yeah, it's definitely a lot, you know, the small snakes, they might be the size of your hand. You can see them sort of go around people's hands and maybe the width of a finger or something like that. So they're quite small, easy to get out of some enclosures. well how big is yellow belly pied here

is this a baby is this a baby snake yeah yeah he was i mean he was probably at least a foot i mean all right and a half or something yeah but he's going to get big he's a ball python but he's got this yellow belly pied pattern right right ball python he's a foot but he's got good heft john given his heft kate or west if you want to weigh in on this how how big do you expect Yellow Belly Pied will get. We'd expect something like five feet.

Yeah, that four to five foot. The males are a little bit smaller than the females, but. Is this a male or a female? Do you know? I think it's supposed to be a male. I think that they have the label, the M there, that one next to them has an F label. So I think that's pretty good.

You never know for sure. When they lay eggs, you're pretty sure that they're female. That's a good guess. So this is your dream snake, West, right? This is the snake you want. Yeah. You want this snake because it's beautiful, it's got this coloring that you like, and also because it's a baby, right? Yes.

And something that, you know, we've sort of learned about getting baby snakes is that it does kind of help to be able to come up with them and raise them while they're young. Like a lot of times they will tend to adapt to sort of however you're raising them and their environment and things like that. is sometimes with older snakes, you know, they go from what they had to something different. And now it's like there might be some, a hard time adjusting, I guess. Sure. Well, that's the same as adopting any older animals. They've had a life. Right.

Then all of a sudden, they're making weird posts on Facebook posting weird memes that are upsetting. Their nieces and nephews are trying to decide whether to talk to them about it at Thanksgiving. Do you have any reason to believe that asking? is going to be the kind of snake that Jesse talked about, a weird snake that's posting strange memes that makes your children uncomfortable. So we've asked Jan about this snake. And the two things that I think are really great about having an adult snake and this one in particular is that you can predict whether they're going to be biddable, that they're going

to be able to be handled if they're comfortable with that and if they're reliably eating. Because ball pythons are not always reliable eaters. and they're not always really comfortable with handling. So if we have a known snake, then we know that they're going to be handling well and eat well. Did you use a term called biddable? That might not be the right word, but yes, they said biddable. How would you spell that word?

B-I-D-D-I-B-L-E. bid double. What does that describe? So in dogs, biddable means that they are like looking forward, excited about listening to your commands. Oh, got it. Okay, I understand. As opposed to like being a callow teenager dog who's like, I don't care what you have to say, right? That non-bidable. Think of a husky. They're going to do what they want. I often do think of a husky. specifically they're going to pull my aunt through a park in Oakland on a sled with roller skate wheels yeah claxon claxon i feel another ant story coming on let's go jesse so i guess the argument you're making kate is that aspen is a known quantity and while that can be a little bit daunting say to west who is concerned that the shift in home life of aspen might be i don't know if you want to

to say traumatic, but it might cause some behavioral issues or some confusion in Aspen, at the same time, you will know that this is a biddable, known, reliable eater snake, presumably. Yeah, the other thing that's nice about that is it's more like a five-year commitment as opposed to a 20 to 25-year commitment. Well, you're young people, aren't you? I don't want to know your ages, but you're younger than me. I mean, we could have the same snake into our 50s, which would, I mean, That's fine, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're so excited about.

No, most people swap out their snakes in their 50s. Yeah, that's why I only lease my snakes. That's why Jan has so many snakes. You're saying that you don't want to be Jan the snake lady. You want to be Kate and Wes, owners of many animals. I would just like the option of having a, just trying out a different species, one that we haven't cared for yet. and doing it with, like, I don't know, what if Wes dies? And then I have to take care of the snake by myself.

Like, you know, I like the idea of having a shorter time commitment. Yeah, I mean, the question I have is, Wes, are you a reliable eater? I am, yeah. I do worry about the older snake, though. Well, let me ask you this question. And it's an emotions question. How was it taking care of Ember at the end of Ember? his life. I mean, it was hard. I think the, the difficult thing was, you know, when he

stopped eating and, you know, snakes, their eating schedules, you know, different from what you're used to. If you have, you know, dogs, cats, they eat, you know, once every maybe 10 days or so. and so if he misses a meal and then maybe you wait another week and then try again and he just really would not take the mice. So I think that was really hard trying to figure out, okay, what's going on? Why wouldn't he eat? It was difficult to sort of go through and be like, okay, well, he's missed, you know, this month now. And now how much longer before we have to like actually try to do something like force feed him,

which was something I tried to do, but it wasn't, yeah. Is that something that is done or is that a technique that you invented, Wes? No, that's something that's done. You try to actually like take their jaws and start to pry the mouse in there and get them going. I can pick, believe me, I can picture force feeding a snake very easily. I don't think we need a very, any more description than that. Yes. That's what I'm going to be thinking about as I fall asleep tonight.

and during this period of intense ambiguity, is he just being normally picky? Is he hurting? Is he suffering? Should I force feed him? How would you describe your feelings during this period of time? I mean, I don't know. I think I tend to be like, well, he's never going to eat again. That's kind of where my mind immediately goes to if he doesn't eat a little bit of catastrophizing, you know. That's not a good feeling.

No, no. No. Would you say, Wes, that you were the primary caregiver to Ember? Yes. Yeah, so I was the one I would go through and, you know, check his substrate every morning and do spot cleaning, try to miss, make sure that, you know, there was moisture in there. Keep an eye on that. Make sure that the temperature was good. And, you know, I could see that the heat pad was still working, things like that and actually going through and throwing the mice and feeding.

I know it's settled law that the one who does the work gets to decide in this court. However, Wes and I do share responsibilities of the pets. It's just that he does the reptiles. I do the fish and we together take care of the mammals. Well, I was just going to ask you how you break down the labor across your pit bull, your orange cat, your turtle named hatch green chili, and then your three tanks and also your golden retriever Cosmo. That was off the dome. I couldn't get all the names that I could remember all. So, Wes does the herps, the reptiles, and the fish, no.

Yes? No. I do the fish. You do the fish. Cats and dogs are shared. And obviously, hatch green chili, the turtle falls under the herb designation. So that's Wes's deal. So, yeah, I mean, Kate, you're making Wes's case for him.

It is settled law that the person who does the work has the, the, if not makes the rules, at least, you know, is given the better part of decision-making. Why should I overrule my own settled law on behalf of you? Because when you take a look at all of our pets together, we are equally doing the work of taking care of all of our pets. Yeah, but I'll tell you what, Kate, when I take a look at all of your pets together, I say, maybe that's enough pets. Yeah, I see a shortage of legs. We have a staggeringly low leg to pet ratio. Yeah, and adding a snake to it is only going to throw those numbers further out of whack.

Because last I checked, no legs on that snake. Nope. So when I told people about the case, some of them said, oh, couldn't you just do both, get a new one and have the old one? And I said, no, we cannot do that. We have very thoughtfully brought in each of the pets that we've brought into our home. We don't do it lightly. We don't collect pets. We do it thoughtfully.

No, of course. We would like more. We would love more. What is the constraint? Space? Space. Yeah. And is this why you're trying to find a portal to another dimension so that you can live on a menagerie planet of your own making where you're the only humans and you're surrounded by as many snakes and turtles and dogs and cats as you like?

That does sound ideal. That sounds wonderful. I mean, the honest truth is if they can kaiju these things successfully, they're going to take care of themselves. That's true. All they got to do is chomp down on some power lines. Well, we were talking about if we could get rats at some point, you know, they have a short lifespan. I was saying we kind of have like the whole food chain if we start to get that, you know?

Yeah. Often, often their life strands are particularly constrained when they are living with snakes. Yes. Yeah. So you're saying you are both in complete agreement that you have room in your lives and hearts for one more a snake, but that's it. Yes. Yes.

And you are both in complete agreement that there is such room in your hearts and lives for one more snake that the absence of a snake on top of your existing pet portfolio is intolerable. You must have a snake. Yeah. Yeah. We want a snake. Okay. Wes, it says here that you want an interesting and cool snake.

Yeah. So, I mean, that's where we get into the different morphs like we saw. You know, the pied ball python was really cool. I think we both really like that. Just something like that. And, you know, we have that breeder is, you know, local enough to us that we can go pick him up. And yeah, that's what I'd be looking at. I mean, Kate, the python, the cool and interesting yellow belly piebald python that Wes has got his eye on.

She had her eye on it, too. I do. No, I, oh, you like it too? But I'm saying that this is also a snake that needs a home. It's not a hypothetical snake. Both Aspen is a real snake and what do you think you would name? I mean, maybe you don't want to go there because you don't want to get attached to this idea. But do you have an idea for the name for this interesting and cool piebald snake, Wes?

I have a note in my phone that's just called pet names. Yeah, she has the, does better with the pet names, yeah. So you're saying even though he takes care of the herpes, you're going to name this snake? Probably, yes. Let me hear your list. I have a note. I have a list in my phone, which is names for human characters and stories. You want to go one by one?

Let's do it. All right. Just, I don't go down the list. Honestly, I don't know where. I don't recognize half of these names. A lot of them are not really good names for real human beings. But here we go. Who's going to go first?

I'll go first. Okay, Kate, you go first. Cinder. Donald Freeberg. Echo. Mysterious Mike. Ouija. Sumner Green.

Sable. Hecatee Price. Rune. Rodney Curtin. Neptune. Guido Guidi. Grim. Lorenzo Sensus.

Spudnik. Thizby Brown. Fable. Johanna. Nix. Cordell Warren Gross. Jenks. Carol Ann Nesbit.

Nimbus. Amanda Mayo. Amos. Emery Dodge. Nova. Donovan Nissen. Timber. Critter.

Glacier. Lithe Pico. Roswell. Nick F. Juneau. Rathke-Krauss. Nebula. Longo Coos.

Platinum. Sweeney Villalobos. Orbit, Busky Redmond, Ambrose, Johann von Neekirk, Opel, Polly Dugan, Lilith, Veronica Bulgari, Pixie, Caleb Custer, Lightning, Andrea Colcoe, Hocus, Adam Prosser, Cobweb, Ben Medina, Oman, Hayden Crawford, Limbo, Ross Keen, Flair, Odin Roos, Blaze, Lisa Freitz, Smokey Gretchen Manning Clover Mamie Dunlap Venus

Billy Tibbets Jupiter Jennifer Vineyard Sut Scott Reset Cibble Annette Larkin Celeste

Ronald McIntyre Beaker Lena Tosen Ash Anthony and How Star Dust Bones Ashford

Roger Doc Alcivar Mischief Deanna Montrose Asteroid Monica Peel Crush Ronna Deer

Phoenix Okay I'm out We could go all day I got more You got more I have a few more Let's just run it down Let's get it all out

I think that's it All right Lamont Jackson, Sheila O'Shea Jordan Church, Graham Carroll Lana Dovecchio Lily Quinn, Wayne Pompano. Oh, and now I'm getting a text. Jennifer Marmer says this has to stop.

Sorry, I producer Jennifer Marmer. Back to the case. I know you guys read a lot of names, but I can pretty much beat it in one. I'm just going to show my phone to the camera here. Hambone. Yeah. Or tugboat.

Hambone. Yeah, Hambone is the best name for a dog. That's also settled law. how is it as a name for a snake jessie would you say ham bone it's pretty good pretty good that's pretty good snake's got a lot of bones in there i would say kate those are a plus names for all animals thank you but i do have a question who who brought ember into your home and marriage who initiated you did so don't you think that maybe it's west's turn kate You make a fine point.

I mean, Wes has described feeling sad, and the process of helping Ember at the end of Ember's life was hard. It seems to me that while you might get five or ten years out of Aspen, that since West does take care of the snakes primarily, that that could be something he would go through again. Why would you want him to go through that again? Something that I didn't realize until we started talking to Jennifer about this case is how much, I think, guilt that my husband feels about sort of the end of Ember's life and if there's anything he could have done differently. And I have a whole lot of empathy for that. I really,

I feel very strongly that that's something to consider. And it's a strong argument in Wes's favor. And obviously there's a difference between rescuing a snake from Jan the snake lady. Not that Aspen necessarily needs rescuing from Jan, but you know what I mean, adopting an elderly snake, opposed to buying one from a breeder. What's the difference that you would argue, Kate? You know, I don't really have much room to talk. I do own a purebred dog. So obviously, but it is, I think, in some ways admirable.

And it's something to strive for is to provide a home for an animal that needs one that other people might not be interested in. But we are. What's going to happen to Aspen if you don't take Aspen in? Do you know? Aspen will likely die in her care. I don't, I don't anticipate a different outcome. I think she's, you said that she's trying to actually get Aspen back to Aspen's original owners, right? Yeah. She's like the second or third owner of this snake. Who are the original owners? We don't know. Is this a detective story?

Is there a scenario where the two of you take Aspen on a long road trip trying to find Aspen's original humans and it becomes like a heartwarming indie comedy drama like Little Miss Sunshine? Yeah, we just have him hanging around our neck as we're on the drive and passing important landscapes on the way. Come on, throw some Sufjohn Stevens under that and you've got an Oscar, basically. He hasn't started his New Mexico album yet. Kate, it says here your ideal ruling, obviously, is to get an old ball python and keep the old setup. In other words, Ember's home is up for grabs. If you were to move Aspen into that enclosure, you would not have to make any major adjustments. Do I understand that correctly?

Yeah. So Jan gave us the enclosure along with Ember. She also provided the food for him. And so it would just basically be a lateral move. We would keep the same enclosure. We would keep everything the same. except for we just have a different snake. But West, it says here, you want to adopt a younger snake, as we discussed, one that is, quote,

interesting and cool with a new setup, right? Right. And I think even if we went with Aspen, we would need to upgrade the enclosure. You know, with his length, the corn snake that we had, Ember, was a good size for him. You generally want it to be long enough where they can stretch out their entire body, the length of the tank. Right. And so typically with a ball python and looking at Aspen, he seems like he'd be about that same size.

We'd probably need a slightly larger tank than what we have now by maybe a foot or so longer and basically bigger in every dimension. So I'd still want a new tank no matter what. This is news to me. How do you take this news, Kate? Does it seem reasonable or unreasonable? It's reasonable. I think also like cost-wise, we can swing it either way. But yeah, I did not know that he wanted to replace it either way. I thought we would just keep everything the same. This is a hard one. I think I'm going to have to take some moments to go burrow into my substrate and maybe hibernate for a while. I'll think it over. But I think I'm going to come to a conclusion soon. So stick around. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Wes, how are you feeling about your chances right now?

You know, I feel all right. I think there were a few things that were definitely going in my favor. I don't know. I kind of left out the big one, I guess. Kate wanted to come home with the one snake that we had at the reptile show. So she was thinking about that, but, you know. Yeah, I got swept up by all the babies. They were so cute.

Who hasn't been charmed by those little slithery guys? Yeah, exactly. Kate, how are you feeling about your chances? I am not feeling super confident. The judge tends to favor people who are well researched, and I think Wes has really done a good job to, like, determine what he wants. And so I'm not feeling great. Well, we'll have to see what the judge says about all this when we come back in just a moment.

Judge John Hachman, we are running out of days in this holiday shopping season. I hope people are going to maxfundstore.com. I hope so, too, because we have such wonderful brand new holiday merch right there at the Max Fund Store, ready to stuff in your stocking. We're talking about hats. You know, Jesse, we open every episode. You say, who's right, who's wrong? Only one can decide.

That's me. I'm the one who has to decide, and it's hard. It would be so much easier if people just wore hats that said right or wrong on them. I see this is our equivalent to the ham helmet that Heathcliff wears. Boy, oh, boy, that ham helmet is something else. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole right now. We also have an incredible new pure justice smell candle and comfy clothes for the cozy goth in your life. All of those are available online at maxfundstore.com.

And you can ship them to whoever you like, but what if you have someone who doesn't like getting stuff shipped to them or simply doesn't like stuff, well, why don't you give them the gift of an experience? Come join us at Marines Memorial Theater on January 18th when Judge John Hodgman returns live at San Francisco Sketchfest. Tickets are available at maximum fun.org slash events. That's where you find out where all of your favorite Max Fun podcasts are going out into the world. The ticket to an event is such a lovely gift. And that's definitely something you can fit into a stocking. I've also got some beautiful things in the Put This On Shop at Put This On Shop.com. And I made a code justice for 10% off, anything in the Put This On Shop if you're out there shopping.

We have everything from clothes and luggage and sunglasses to wonderful gifts. I just got this little, I just got this pin. Yeah. That's for the sisters of the swish. You know, a sister of the swish out there, I recommend going to put this on shop.com, because that's going to go fast. I'm going, I might go over there and get it myself for a basketball fan that I know. Excellent.

There are all kinds of gorgeous things, men's and women's and gender neutral, all I put this on shop.com. 10% off if you use the code, Justice. Let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. Cesar Hidalgo, Livia Perez, Lovie and Wayne Berlin, Danny Estrada, Aster Wise, Sonia Kim, Robert Sly, Tara Cohen, Joel Rosenberg, Helen Rosenmeier, Tybee, Mix, Annette Coe, Richie Lopez Dark, Paul Poland, Gualtiero Rocco. These and other names are on my phone, reminding me of the time that I once read 700 hobo names into a tin can since we're doing buzz marketing on this episode.

It's the 20th anniversary of my first book, the areas of my expertise. And also, since we're doing buzz marketing, I forgot to note that that wonderful performance from Griffin Newman, uh, in Dicktown episode 209 in which he is instructing John Hunchman to go into the pet store to get, uh, uh, snake food in the form of 100 frozen mice and snake shampoo. Later, uh, he instructs my character to go into the hardware store to get wood glue and wood. And I ask Griffin Newman why. And, uh, Griffin performs the joke that is my favorite joke of all of Dicktown written by David Reese, where he goes, Building a ramp for my snake, duh.

Building a ramp for his snake. Also, by the way, Wes wants an interesting and cool snake. And, of course, the Dicktown theme song performed by Weird Al Yankovic in season two is called Interesting, Cool, and Fun. Just a little fun, little interesting and cool serendipity there. Since we're doing some buzz marketing for various things. I want to do some buzz marketing. marketing for Jan the snake lady out there in Los Alamos or wherever she is in New Mexico.

It is a benefit to the world, I suppose, that she is taking care. And I believe so responsibly of so many snakes and trying to find good homes for them. It was a boon to the domesticated snake population that you were able to take Ember in and give Ember a high quality of life. And though it was hard to say goodbye to Ember, as it is hard to say goodbye to any beloved pet or even just belikeed pet, it is a good thing that you did. Normally, there is a settled law well established on this podcast that we encourage people who are thinking of getting pets to adopt, particularly an existing pet as opposed to going to a pure bread breeder. There are a number of reasons for this. Obviously, pets need homes.

And perhaps less obviously, pure-bred breeders, there are some great ones, and then there are some less than great ones. And as well, pure-bred animals, cats and dogs in particular, can have in-bred genetic problems because of that line of breeding that a good old-fashioned mutt wouldn't necessarily have. and certainly all animals that you bring into your home deserve love, whether they are a purebred whatever or a beloved mix-up. But that said, I mean, you have a purebred dog.

You mentioned Kate, and I'll say this to you. You know, we adopted a cat known as Lolo the Dum-Dum Cat. Certainly came into our house with an entire life that is a mystery to us, and I think also to Lolo. because Lolo, when I say is dumb, is pretty dumb. I think part of the reason that she is so dumb is, I mean, I don't say this unkindly. We don't make fun of her to her face. I mean, behind her back, we do.

But she will, you know, I once saw her sitting under a coffee table, as I said before, and she will sit up under the coffee table and hit her head. I've never seen a cat have so little field awareness as Lolo, the dumb, I've never seen a cat that is so dedicated to staring vapidly into the middle distance as Lolo the dumb, dumb cat, you know. And I think part of the reason that she is a mystery to us and to herself is that in her previous life, her one previous owner had her declawed, which is not something that one should do to a cat, both because they can't defend themselves, and it's an unnecessary surgery that is dangerous,

that is not worth it to protect your furniture, but also because I think Lolo could never play properly. I mean, depending on when she was declawed, you know, she can't grab anything because all she's got is soft hands, right? She can't grab. I don't think her play, I think it undermined her ability to play and play is an important part of a cat's developmental growth and brain development. So I think that that's part of the reason she's done. We love her so much. We're so glad to have this adopted cat. But when the time came for our daughter to take in a cat, we ended up finding a cat, we ended up finding.

a responsible purebred Maine Coon cat breeder in Maine. And we got her a purebred Maine Coon kitten. Now, why? Well, partly it's because, and this is a sad part of the story, she did adopt a stray kitten, who was the runt of the litter. And as often happens with runts of the litter, particularly in a stray slash feral cat environment,

the cat passed away very quickly and there was nothing to do it was absolutely heartbreaking absolutely heartbreaking so when the time came for her to after she had mourned for a period of time when time came for her to get a new cat she knew that she wanted something in the main coon varietal for various temperamental reasons and obviously maybe i pushed it on her because I'm obsessed with Maine. I don't know. But we decided to get her a kitten that we knew was going to be healthy and was going to be with her for a long time.

This isn't to say that we couldn't have found a healthy kitten or young cat in an adoption rescue situation. We could have. And indeed, we know we made a sizable donation to our local animal rescue operation, all of which is to say that, you know, when you are choosing a companion animal, while we do strongly recommend and urge you to consider adoption, as you already have, this is not speaking to you, Kate and West, you know, obviously you've got two dogs, you've got a cat and a dog that are, that have three legs. They weren't coming from a pure breed, right? you have you have diversified your portfolio of care the turtle is also rescued oh i don't care about your turtle sorry was that not clear from the beginning i don't want to hear about that turtle ever again no i love i love hatch green chili turtle in this case i mean it's hard i look

at aspen looks like a wonderful normal morph probably be a wonderful addition to your home and you'd probably be doing, you know, you would afford, it has been a wonderful life. But it doesn't mean that you're the only people in the world who can. And in the meantime, you know, you can sense that I am sympathetic to Wes, not merely because he cleans the substrate, but also because both of you went through as well as your kids. And I imagine some of your other animals went through a sense of loss.

with regard to ember and the difficulty of caring for an animal at the end of its life is meaningful. And I remember when our cat, Petey died, and I was there when I took him to the veterinarian to be put down. I needed, I demanded a year of zero pet, not even talking about getting one, just a year of not cleaning a litter box and purposeful morning so that I could move on. This is something that you have to respect in Wes. Even though your generous nature might be to bring Aspen into your home, you are married to Wes, not to do Jan the Snake Lady. And I think that particularly since you initiated bringing Ember in, and presumably you named Ember and presumably you were going to name the new snake,

if it has no given name already. I think that we do need to afford Wes the decision-making power in this case. And if that means a purebred snake bought from a breeder that's got the interesting and cool pattern, there are people who are going to say, I'm sure, like, why should that matter?

An animal needs a home. Well, that animal needs a home too. And I don't think it's wrong for Wes to get what he wants in this particular case. I wish you had room for two snakes in your life. But you as a dula, surely no. You can't split the baby. You got to, Solomon was not wise.

Well, I mean, it was a trick that Solomon did, but you know what I'm saying. You got to, I got to come down on this one side or the other. And while it's a challenging decision, I'm going to encourage you to work with Jan the snake lady to find Aspins, either original owners or some new owners, Kate, that you can help. train, you and Wes can help train to keep Aspen and give Aspen a wonderful home. But in the meantime, let Wes have the snake he craves. This is the sound of a gavel. Asps, very dangerous. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Kate, how do you feel about the decision? You know, I'm going to find a lot of peace with this. arrangement. And I'm very happy for Wes that he's going to get to have a new project and a new baby in the house. I mean, your life's about to get 100% more piebald. No more legs, though. That's fair. Wes, you must be feeling pretty good. Yeah, I feel good. I'm happy. I think we'll both really be enjoying the snake. Wes, Kate, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. All right. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We'll have swift justice in just a second. First, our thanks to Redator, Dr. Colossus of Rhodes, legendary Judge John Hodgman case namer for naming this week's episode. I declare a hiss trial. Join the conversation over there on Reddit. It's R slash maximum fun. That's also where we ask for title suggestions. So go over there, suggest a title, enjoy other people's suggestions. You can find evidence. for the show at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman, as well as at maximum fun.org. We're also on TikTok and YouTube, so go subscribe in both places. Please smash those like and subscribe buttons. Speaking of YouTube,

our YouTube comment of the week this week comes from user Just One Aspesto. I guess that's the singular. Singular of asbestos. Singular of asbestos. Okay, very good. Just One Aspesto commented

on our episode shut your payhole from a couple weeks back. You may remember that that was the episode in which a daughter Genevieve took her dad, Mike, to court because Mike would never let his adult daughter, Genevieve, pay for dinner. Mike dropped some really serious life lessons on all of us, including Genevieve, including this one. The sadness that she feels for not being able to give to me is the sadness of life. It's what life is. Wow. So just when Aspesto said off of that comment, I think that Mike might be Werner Herzog's long-lost twin brother from Boone, North Carolina. Thank you for that quote from YouTube. And thank you for watching and commenting on our YouTube channel, Judge John Hodgman pod. Commenting obviously is not only a lot of fun. It's very valuable.

to the channel as is subscribing. We're about to break, well, in the not too distant future, I hope we can break 10,000 subscribers. It'll really boost the show if you're able to go over there and subscribe and hit that bell and share the episodes over there. Thank you for that. Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This episode engineered by Lester Watts at Albuquerque Podcast Studio. Megan Rosati runs our social media, the podcast edited by A.J. McKeon, our video editor, Daniel Speer. Our producer, of course, is Jennifer Marmer. Okay, swift justice, consistent article 975 says on the MaxFund subreddit,

despite my many requests, my husband won't close the door of our shed at the end of a long day of gardening. But I'm too scared of our neighborhood skunk to close it myself. What should I do? I demand from this point forward that all of our disputes be. Beatrix Potter style discreet. What's the name of the toad that comes around? Missis Piggy Winkles and just sits down. He's like, he's like, I'm coming for lunch and he just sits there for the entire afternoon.

A lot you can learn about manners from that terrible toad. Listen, I imagine that consistent article is concerned that the skunk has walked into the shed or is hanging out in there. and consistent article doesn't want to close the door on the skunk and get it trapped in there, get sprayed. And I will say, consistent article's husband should be closed in the garden shed. Just if you open the door, close it behind you, that's just good manners. That said, I will also quote, or paraphrase at least, Werner Herzog's twin brother, Mike from Boone, North Carolina and say,

the terror that she feels for not being able to close the shed door is the terror of life. That is what life is. I know Paul F. Tompkins, I can't do a Werner Herzog, but you see my point, like, you can figure it out. No offense, consistent article, but do not be afraid of skunks. They're just animals. They're trying to live their lives. They're not going to spray you. They're not going to bite you.

If it's rabid, keep your distance, obviously. But you don't want to go through life being afraid to close a garden shed door. just take a deep breath, go out there and close it, and then tell your husband, Hodgman says, shut the door, what were you raised in a garden shed? Go on. Hey, we're just about a month out from our live show at San Francisco Sketchfest. We mentioned it before if you're in the Bay Area or near the Bay Area. We would love to have your beautiful butts in seats, maximum fun.org slash events, but even more, perhaps. We would love to have your disputes. Can't have a show without Disputes, Jesse, is that right or wrong?

No matter what your dispute is, go to Maximumfund.org slash JJHO and submit it. Can I offer something very sincere and possibly slightly bummery, but also possibly action galvanizing at the end of this week's episode? Jesse, I would love it. I was thinking about our friends at Al Otrolado. Yeah. The other day. They actually reached out to us.

I think we're going to go, we're going to go visit them. their operation in Tijuana. That's right. In northern Mexico sometime soon. I'm really looking forward to that. But I was thinking of them because I was in Home Depot the other day. The Home Depot here in Cypress Park in Los Angeles, it's like down the road, Figueroa Boulevard from my house.

We just moved into a new office at Maximum Fun. And I was literally buying some picture hangers to put up posters. Judge John Hodgman posters on the walls of the new Maximum Fun Office in downtown Los Angeles. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. It's very kind. It was like 8 o'clock in the morning or so. Mm-hmm.

And as I was looking at the baffling selection of picture hooks and, as usual, not being helped by anyone at the Home Depot, Mm-hmm. I heard some people yelling, La Migra, La Migra, and saw some folks booking it from the front of the store, towards the back of the store where the lumber is, and there's a lumber loading dock back there. And it turned out that there was a nice rate happening in the front of the store, or in the

parking lot in front of the store. And it was, you know, it was this, the third time I've had a direct experience with ice in Los Angeles since these raids started. Obviously, there was that time in MacArthur Park while we were recording. I also witnessed an ice raid a couple weeks before that. And I will not soon forget the look on the face of the guy who ran past me. Um, nor will I forget what the, uh, teenage, say, 17 year old girl that was on the sidewalk in front of the Home Depot, uh, the look on her face as she sobbed into the arms of an employee at the Home Depot. Um, and I felt very lucky. I, I didn't witness the detentions. They were a couple hundred feet away from the front door. in the big parking lot over by where there's a labor center, where I've hired day laborers before.

But then I read what had happened in that parking lot, which was, among other things, a man who was in his car with his toddler in the backseat, was boxed in, pulled out of his car, and arrested. His toddler was driven away on camera. I mean, there were observers there on camera by two ice agents in his car. The toddler was not returned to his family until 12 hours later.

His family didn't know where the kid was. and the man that was arrested was and is a United States citizen Not that anyone deserves to be arrested for the crime of living anywhere Right But this was a man who had been boxed in simply because he was in his car

leaving the parking lot when these ice agents decided to raid And, you know, it was just another of this cavalcade of horrors that we have experienced here in Los Angeles and that people around the country have experienced. Just this sort of parade of performative cruelty designed to terrify people who are living in the United States, whether it's with or without permitting. mission from the government, into leaving. And it's a horror to live with. And I'm hopeful that it won't come in this way to New York where you live, John, but we'll see.

But it's been a horror to live with. And, you know, one of the comforts that I have had in dealing with this, that at Home Depot's on my way to work, you know what I mean? Like, I get the shakes every time I drive past. Right. And one of the comforts that I have experienced in the last year or so, as this has been going on, is the generosity of our listener community and Judge John Hodgman in supporting Allotrolato's work with migrants who are in the United States, migrants who are in Mexico and elsewhere, not just Mexican, but also Central American and Caribbean

migrants who are on the Mexico side of the border. And we have, I'm loading it up here. We're at $265,000. That's plus about $100,000 in matching funds that listeners have offered. And we have a who made a really generous matching grant. And if you go to alotrolado.org slash let's do something, you can make a donation. We are coming up on fulfilling that matching grant. Our goal right now to fulfill that matching grant is $275,000. We're at about $265,000.

But also, you know, it's a wonderful cause one way or another. This is like these folks are doing direct, work for people who really need help. And there's more people who need help than ever. So if you want to make a diff, go to al-Othrolato.org slash, let's do something. It's the holiday season. It's a perfect time to do it. And so many thanks to the, like, at this point, hundreds of Judge John Hodgman listeners who have supported this cause. You rule. And I can tell you from my own experienced that, like, when you're reading the news and you're feeling sick to your stomach, you can think about that support that you gave and think about the support that your fellow

audience members gave, and you will feel good and comforted by that. And it will also make a direct impact in people's lives. So it's al-a-lato.org slash, let's do something. Al-o-trolato.org slash, let's do something. I wish everyone an extremely peaceful holiday season. but it is always time to remember, and especially this year, that this is a time to think about people who are not experiencing peace and to enjoy your time and I hope your togetherness with your family, but think about families that can't be together and to give of yourself to your community and to those in your community that you don't even know. And alotrolato.org slash let's do something is a really important way. I just want to

stress again that it's not just charitable giving the money as a very direct impact on the people were being harmed by this wave of terror on purpose right now. So obviously, I'm sorry that you went through that. Jesse, I'm very sorry for the people who are detained and being terrorized and families that are being torn apart. And I obviously echo your call to action here. Please go to Alotrilato.org slash let's do something. We'll talk to you next time on the judge of John Hodgman And if anyone in New Mexico needs an elderly snake, I'll get a line on one for you. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network of artists-owned shows. Supported directly by you.