Judge John Hodgman - In Moto Parentis

Episode Date: April 20, 2016

Leigh files suit against her son Duncan. Duncan is ready to take to the open road on a motorcycle. His parents aren't fans of the idea, and want him to wait until he's older and can shoulder the cost and risk on his own.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, in moto parentis, Lee files suit against her son, Duncan. Duncan's ready to take to the open road on a motorcycle. His parents aren't fans of the idea. They want him to wait until he's older and can shoulder the cost and risk on his own. Who's right? Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents the obscure cultural reference. You roared into the driveway of our southwestern ranch-style house on a new Kawasaki All yellow and black Fresh out of the showroom Our house face west So the big orange sun Positioned at your back Lit up your magnificent silhouette

How much better, how much better Could my life get 900 cubic centimeters of raw whining power. No outstanding warrants for my arrest. Whoa, God damn, the judge's life for me. Bailiff Jesse, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,

and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's unfamiliar with the concept of the motorcycle? I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? Lee and Duncan, you may be seated. First of all, apologies, parents.

Lee and Duncan, you may be seated. First of all, apologies, parents. This is normally a family-friendly podcast, but because I have made a rather unusual exception and allowed an adolescent young man into this courtroom, I felt the need to shake things up and say, God damn, so I apologize if you were offended. But it had to be done. Lee and Duncan, for an immediate summary judgment

in one of your favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom? Duncan, you are the young man in question. How old are you, 16? Is that correct? Yes. That's right.

A full-grown adult in many cultures, but in ours, but a child. You were brought here against your will by your mother, as is her right to do. She is your mom. Um, but that means you get to either guess first or insist that she guess first.

What is your choice? Duncan? I do insist that she guessed first. Duncan has chosen to insist that his mother Lee guess first, perhaps because he doesn't know, Perhaps he wishes to gain information. Perhaps just to humiliate her because he knows already. Lee, it is now on you. What is your guess? Your Honor, I think that is a lyric from a

song by the Mountain Goats, but I cannot remember the exact song. The guess is a song by the Mountain Go but i cannot remember the exact song the guess is a song by the mountain goats but i cannot remember the exact song and now duncan we go to you what is your guess truly no idea i'll give you a hint it is a song i feel like it's about a chevy for some reason but i couldn't tell you what it was interesting about a chevy we'll call that song about a chevy and i will say all guesses are almost wrong yours definitely is duncan oh well that's fine and uh and and it it it it casts quite a shadow over your position in this case because you want to get a motorcycle and this song is not about a chevy it is about a motorcycle but lee holy moly mom almost coming in for the win

with a not only not only a cultural reference uh that arguably 16 year old boys should get before their moms do but one that is near and dear to my heart. Unfortunately, I cannot give you the immediate summary judgment because you cannot name the song. I remember it's about a girl. Yes, and the girl has a name. And I can't remember the name. And that name is Jenny.

To be fair, of all of the amazing songs that occasional expert witness for this very show, John Darnielle of the Mountain Goats has written, Jenny is one of the most, it's one of the less memorable names of a song. It's no the best ever death metal band out of Denton, which is from the same album which album is do you know it lee uh no all hail west texas i know all hail me too i listened to a lot of mountain goats in prepare in preparation in preparation for this one for this for this case yes sir because you yes sir how did you know i didn't i just i i we've been long-time listeners and i just if there was a possibility of that which i already like that music so therefore listening to that was not a hardship this is heartbreaking to me because not only is it super cool that you got this reference And not only did you intuit on an almost psychic level

that I might make a Mountain Goats reference about a motorcycle, but correct me if I don't know, are there a lot of Mountain Goats songs about motorcycles? Because from where I sit, this is the one. This is the main one. I don't even remember. I just basically put them on constantly repeat at my office for about the past

couple of months oh when i was doing work yeah you got you got you really i'm you you really i really want to give this to you i really want to give this to your mom duncan i would disagree with this well i know i'm not going to we're going to hear the case she did not win the trial by combat but so that you know that is the song jenny by mountain goats from the album all hail west texas subtitle of album is quote 14 songs about seven people two houses a motorcycle and a locked treatment facility for adolescent boys which is arguably what you are, Duncan, at the age of 16. And we're going to have a discussion about whether or not you're going to get a motorcycle. And if you get out of line, we're going to send you to a locked treatment facility. So be careful. Duncan, you're 16 years old.

You do not, obviously a are you of age to get a driver's license or a learner's permit 16 and a half yes I have a driver's license uh and I've had it for almost eight months no it's almost nine months now are you almost 17 I am yes okay and and you live I Atlanta, Georgia. Is that correct or thereabouts? Yes, that is correct. And what is the age at which you are allowed to get a learner's permit? So in Georgia, the day you turn 15, you can get a learner's permit. Whoa.

That's not the way it is in Massachusetts. And Your Honor, we were there as early as humanly possible of him pushing me out of the house to go get that learner's permit. Because he wanted it or you wanted him to get in a car and drive away from it? Oh, he wanted it. No, he wanted it. So you are a seasoned driver already at the age of 16 and eight months or so. Yes. And you want to get a motorcycle and you've been bugging your mom

about it and your mom is saying no and your mom has brought you to court to end this argument once and for all because she is uh abstaining her duties as a parent and instead throwing it to the government to the nanny state to make this decision for her. Isn't that right, Lee? Why can't you handle this on your own? Well, Your Honor, that's not exactly the case. I have said no repeatedly. And it keeps, not just myself, my husband and I, there are all three of us in the family. My husband and I are still married.

We'll be 24 years this year. And we have both said no. But the problem is it keeps coming up with only me of why can't I? Why do you say no? And these arguments only keep coming up with me and not his father. So that's why I had to bring the case. Let me ask, what are you saying no to exactly? Are you saying no to the idea of your son getting a motorcycle or no to giving him money to buy a motorcycle? Oh, we are saying, oh, that, that is never, ever a question. There will be no money given for a motorcycle. The, uh, I'm saying no, as long as I am paying for any part of your living expenses and that includes insurance that I that's fine you're going to like what you like you want a motorcycle that's fine as soon as you are no longer being paid for in any way shape or form by me including life insurance

and since he's looking at very likely going to get a master's and will need life insurance from me until he's 26 then as soon as you are completely and utterly on your own do whatever you want but until then no yeah well i don't mean i don't mean to be grim but if you were a villain in a story taking out a life insurance policy the day someone buys a motorcycle that's a good scheme life insurance and health insurance is more what i'm speaking of any type of insurance right so duncan you want to buy a motorcycle on your own no are you okay make make say your thing so currently i have my car or what they like to call the third car of the family that basically I only drive.

The one you use. Yes. They paid over $9,000 for to get me this car, which so far has only served the purpose of transporting me to and from places. We haven't used it for taking items. That's what a car is for. Well, yes, but we haven't used it for like taking luggage or anything that takes up a lot of space. Recently, we went on a trip over my spring break and we had to take a massive amount of luggage with us, right? Half the back was filled up and the whole trunk was filled up. I've never

transported any large quantity of luggage or anything in my car that requires an enormous amount of space. So therefore, it's okay to sell the car and get a motorcycle, which also doesn't have that amount of space, which wasn't already being put to use. To be fair, Judge Hodgman, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I'm sure his mother's objections are primarily about amount of space. Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. So your argument is you currently have this Kia and you use it to get around where to go to high school or, or what have you? Yes. All right. And you're using it to get around town, but you never have to pack for a big trip and you never have to carry around all kinds of luggage. It's really just you and the Kia all the time. So why not sell it and get a motorcycle is

that what you're saying yes all right because it has the potential to do more and you're wasting that potential yes but i i'm not saying we're wasting the potential but there's i feel like eventually she would have brought that up as an argument that there's no room to put things in my motorcycle but we haven't done that that's already the. The problem is not cargo space with the motorcycle. Yes, that is not the issue. The problem is that the car is a cage of steel around you and the motorcycle is an engine you are riding between your legs with no cage of steel around you. That's the issue.

But you want one, not because it is illogical to drive a Kia from place to place, because that's perfectly logical. You want one because you want one, correct? Yes. And there's no reason for you, from a cargo point of view, to not have a motorcycle. From a cargo point of view alone. Yes. You have no need to cart things around to high school.

I mean, my book bag, but I can wear that. But what you have need of is a cool thing to impress people at high school. Yes, but it's more that I would enjoy the experience of riding the motorcycle rather than showing it off to people. You heard the song, right? The song is based on the premise, which is unquestionable. Motorcycles are cool and when you ride one it feels cool and i've ridden on one one time and that was when i was riding on the back of a harley davidson hugging the uh middle-aged man who was our permanent French substitute in the French department at my high school,

giving me a ride back from the radio station. It was not a cool situation, but even then, I felt cool. They're cool. Mom, I'm talking about cool right now. Shh. Duncan, do you know what kind of motorcycle you want? No, but I've looked up a motorcycle that has a style that I like. It is the, it's a day of my mind reading, apparently, because you also said a Kawasaki.

Yeah, I said that in the song. And you still said Chevy. I know it is a 2016 kawasaki ninja yeah so yeah so so specifically not really i don't know a 2016 kawasaki ninja yes this is a model of the style that i like yeah that's the motorcycle you i mean the actual the one you don't you haven't you haven't gone to the showroom to pick it out yet, but you know the make and model of the motorcycle you want. Oh boy. He specifically went to Google and typed in a death machine among death machines, and it spat out Kawasaki Ninja. I am now looking at images of the 2016 Kawasaki Ninja.

It's, what I mean by that is I don't like- This thing looks like it's green. It's insectoid. It looks like a transformer that's going to turn into a knife. How many times have you watched the Ice Cube and Adam Scott starring Fast and the Furious knockoff Torque? That would be zero. Okay. Well, I mean, if you're doing research, that's my recommendation to you.

It's fun. Adam Scott's great in it. So, and how much does a Kawasaki 2016, this is a brand new motorcycle. Yes. And this is a... No, no, I'm sorry. No, this is, the one I'm looking at is used but okay all right all right all right how much so you're actually you actually have have it in mind this is a this is a

sporty fast motorcycle the kind that when you're it's not the kind that the dude who uh joe mcclellan my my old friend from brookline who was was the permanent substitute in the French department who wore a leather jacket and was the advisor on our zine and also got me a radio show at WMFO in Medford. He wrote a Harley, a big honking Harley. This is the kind of motorcycle. It's not the kind of motorcycle that a French substitute rides around with, with a student on the back. This is the kind of motorcycle that a young dude rides fast between lanes by you while you drive

with his t-shirt coming up on his back because of air motion or something and you get to see his hairy back this is the kind that uh a young dude rides while no one else is on the freeway at 3 30 in the morning as fast as it'll go. Yeah. This is not the kind of thing you use to pack luggage on a family trip. That is for sure. You've looked at one online or you found one that's used. You're going to have your eye on it. How much does it cost?

$4,700. $4,700. And do you have the money to pay for it? I do not know. That would be the money that would come from selling the Kia Soul. Did you buy the Kia Soul? No, my parents bought the Kia Soul as well. Okay. So it's their property, legally. Yes.

All right. I was leaning against you in this case pretty hard there for a second, Duncan, until you revealed that it was a Kia Soul. Now I'm kind of feeling you. I like my Kia Soul. Thank you very much. Why don't you cut it? Why don't you cut it in half and turn that into a motorcycle? That's how motorcycles work, right, Jesse? Yeah.

Well, I mean, the thing is, is identities are a lot more fluid and flexible among young people in the country. And he apparently identifies as a rapping hamster you don't have the money to buy it you want to sell all right you want to you want to sell your existing ride this kia soul to buy it uh that's a non-starter, you understand, because you didn't put up the money for that Kia Soul. So let's just throw that fantasy into the garbage can. Even, would someone sell you a Kawasaki Ninja? I guess true, like it would be Craigslist, right?

It depends on the state laws about fireworks, I think. Yeah. a kawasaki ninja i guess true like it would be craigslist right it's like is that it depends on the state laws about fireworks i think yeah all right but let's just say for the sake of argument that you raised the money yourself forty seven hundred dollars you could get a who was that just was that just a scoff was that a scoff i'm sorry i'm coughing i'm sorry was it a cough or a scoff yeah all right i'm just trying to i just need to establish what the terms of this court case are right because here's the thing you're making the argument to your mom that she should sell the kia and give you the money to buy a motorcycle. And that argument is utterly non-starter. I'm not saying this out of contempt or anything. I'm just saying,

no way is mom going to sell a car and give you the money to buy a motorcycle. You're asking for a handout. And mom the purse strings and motorcycles are dangerous and parents have a job, which is to say no to dangerous things. Not only do they have to say no to dangerous things, they're certainly not going to give you money unless they have a different style of life than one I recognize. You know, that's fine. You know what? I bet there are a lot of parents who give their buy a motorcycle for their 16 or 17 year old son in a lot of different circumstances but your mom isn't that person so so she's she's never going to give you the money so now your new argument has to be

i'll get a job and make the money myself right yes okay so let's say for the sake of argument you're now saying to your mom if i get a job and raise the money and buy it myself, can I have a motorcycle? Go ahead and say that to your mom. Okay. If I raise the money and am capable to buy a motorcycle, would you let me? No. You've lost your ever-loving mind. No. Well, guess what mom tough luck on you because if duncan goes out and gets the money he can go buy whatever he wants well i'd like to

talk about that a little bit your honor that's a part of my case right yes yeah look we both know this is never going to happen, but you have to understand. You come to this court because you're in a weird twilight place between having a child and having a loathsome adult living in your house. And that is actually, Your Honor, I think you've already hit the crux of this, and that is very true. I agree with you wholeheartedly by the way by the way you're not loathsome duncan i didn't mean to suggest that you were loathsome it's just hard for a parent to to discover that their child whom they love has turned into a weird grown-up who's living in the house that's all it's just it's just awkward go on ma'am no it's it is and and we just went on a trip looking at colleges so realizing that he is moving into a new phase is very it is difficult. And it's it has been a bit of a transition in these in this past year. But one of the things he keeps talking about that if I had. First of all, this is the first time I've ever heard sell the third car and let me buy a motorcycle, which is the funniest thing I've ever heard in

my life. One of the funniest things. But I think one of the things is that it would not just be paying for the motorcycle. It would also be paying for the insurance on the motorcycle. But all of this is not the concern. And Your Honor, you kind of already said it, is that a part of my role as a parent is protecting my child from the dangers that he is unwilling or unable to see. And motorcycles are basically, as Jesse put it, which is death machines among death machines. I sent some evidence showing motor vehicle deaths and injuries for all young people. Do you remember that old Gary Larson Farside cartoon where it's the person talking to the cat? And, no, never mind. I'm not going to reference a Gary Larson cartoon.

Oh, no, no. The one where he's like, cat, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, cat. Yeah. Right. Well, it's a two-parter because it's like, what dogs hear? Yeah. And they only hear their own name. And what cats hear, it's a two-parter because it's like what dogs hear. Yeah. And they only hear their own name. And what cats hear, it's just nothing.

They hear nothing. Blah, blah, blah. Right. If you show highway motorcycle mortality statistics to your teenage son, I think he would look at it and it would just be, I don't know what, a picture of a naked man or woman or something. That has been the continuing argument. I'm sorry, but that has been the continuing argument is that, you know, the first thing I said is that they're dangerous.

Well, I'll get a helmet. Well, that's great. That reduces it by X amount. But still, you know, you're 26 times more likely to die in a motorcycle crash per mile traveled if you're on a motorcycle than in a vehicle in a car uh no that's you know and i'll take the safety class that's great you're still invisible to drivers five you know half of the time people will say i did not see the motorcycle there if they're in an accident with a motorcycle, we had a friend who was in a very terrible accident. It was a hit and run.

And you know, that was, as far as I know, that person probably didn't see the motorcycle that was there. I don't know. And I, and it was still a hit and run. And so that is not what happened there. But what happened to your friend? He was in a terrible accident. He was in the hospital four months.

He has hit the point after, oh, goodness, I want to say, Duncan, you were young when this happened to him. But I want to say we're probably at seven to ten years at this point, and's hit maximum medical recovery and yet he still has issues um he still has pain he still is not fully mobile um and yet none of that boring story has anything to do with duncan because that's not going to happen to duncan because he's right because he's going to make a decision not to have an accident right yeah duncan's going to wear a legally mandated helmet so it's a non-issue i think some of the things that he's brought up first of all is you know yes he would have to get a job but he'd also have to get a job to pay for all the insurance um and the other issue of you know he doesn't need the space in the current car

for carrying anything is you don't even need to answer to that. That's the most, with respect, Duncan, that's the most ridiculous teenage logic I've ever heard in my life. She was going to bring it up eventually. All I'm saying is she was going to bring it up. Well, no, I wasn't, actually. No, it wasn't even in my list. We were too excited when we argued before. Well, I've brought up lots of things. Duncan, let me do you a favor.

Let me do you a favor, Duncan. Here's your argument, right? Here's your argument for why. I only need to go to high school and back. The gas costs less. It's super cool. I really want to do it. I really want to have it.

And the end. That's it. I mean, that's why. That's why one has a motorcycle. Because they really want to have it and the end that's it i mean that's why that's why one has a motorcycle because they really want a motorcycle if you have children your perspective will change that's all uh and duncan i'm never going to be able to explain this to you because you like me are a member of the super smart afraid of conflict narcissist club you you're in your own world where it's your job to believe that you are immortal because that's what all adolescents feel. It doesn't occur. You'll never completely understand.

And there's no point in even trying to understand how a parent worries about losing a child. And yeah, you know what? It would not be as hard if you had more than one child. You would be missed, of course, and mourned terribly. had more than one child. You would be missed, of course, and mourned terribly. But to lose, you know, this is why even I, an only child who always thought I would only have one child, immediately realized once I became a parent, like, no, we need more of these around because I can't face what would happen if I lost my only child. I can't face what would happen if I lost either of my children. And this is a dark place to go. But, you know, this gives you some insight into how quickly the parental mind goes to dark places. Because we are able, we know that we are not immortal.

We're facing down our mortality every day. We're also able to look at a chart of highway death statistics and see those statistics and think about terrible outcomes where you just see a whole bunch of numbers that mean nothing to you because it's not going to happen no i i understand that i'm not immortal i don't i i get that thing that they talk about a lot where you know teenagers think they'll be fine nothing bad will ever happen to them but i get that bad things can happen to me and i'm not saying that there's no risk inherent in having a motorcycle but I think that the enjoyment I'll getting I'll get out of having one you know is is is worth that risk and I mean I've I've spent the day researching these numbers too and I mean those numbers have affected me and I've seen you know the statistics I'm like oh okay I mean these are I mean it's serious but

it's it's it's not as bad as she sometimes portrays it. And I, I do think that the risk is worth it. Well, here's the deal. We're going to settle this once and for all. And, uh, and there will come a time when you are totally independent in the world as your mother acknowledges, uh, when you will have your own money and your own life insurance, and you'll be keeping your own home, um, when you will have your own money and your own life insurance and you'll be keeping your own home, when you can go ahead and get a motorcycle. So right now, you guys, you came to my courtroom. I'm going to ask a few more questions and then I'm going to consider my judgment and then I will either order that Duncan must wait until he moves out of the house,

has his own money, has his own life insurance, etc., etc., or that Duncan can start raising money now and get a motorcycle as soon as he's got $4,700 in his hot pocket. And, Your Honor, it's not just $4,700. It's also the insurance. I do think that if he is going to have a motorcycle, he should be paying for the actual. Oh, sure. But, you know, but here's the deal.

And this is where you are in your life. And, you know, I'm being a little rough and tumble with both of you, but I hope you appreciate that. I truly have affection for both of you. And I also it's what this is what makes the parent adolescent relationship so fraught right because he's not a kid anymore you can't forbid him where you where are you looking at college duncan uh well on our trip we went to uh tulane rice and washington university in. Okay. And so, you know, once he goes to college, he can go find a motorcycle for probably for 800 bucks and ride that thing around and not realize that he has to buy insurance for it. And even if he never gets into an accident, he might be pulled over by a police officer because guess what?

You're gonna on a motorcycle. And he never paid for insurance. And then he gets thrown in jail or or has, you know, like he can make all kinds of mistakes without telling you about it. You can do whatever he wants once he's once he's over there in Louisiana or in Texas or in Missouri. So, you know, I mean, that's the thing. Of course, you're never going to sell the third car and give him money to buy a Ninja. But, Duncan, you're facing a world pretty quick where your natural

decency and desire to get an okay from mom and dad is going to be meaningless in your life and you won't have to, even if you're not entirely independent. So that's what the decision is going to be. Either I rule in

Lee's favor and say you cannot get a motorcycle until you are fully uh an adult obviously 18 years older older and financially independent um or i can rule in your favor duncan and say do what you like See if you can get one. Here are the rules. I hope you follow them, which is kind of what any parent has to say. Let's talk a little bit about your research into motorcycles. You live in Atlanta. What's the helmet law? You need one, right?

Yeah, everyone wears a helmet at all times on road. If you're off road, it's not required. And do you know how to drive a motorcycle i know how to drive a bicycle but no i've never driven a motorcycle been on a motorcycle or anything like that so where would you take lessons we live fairly close a DMV and they hold lessons there. And what specifically motorcycle lessons? Yes. Obviously you would need to get

a special class of license, right? Yes, a motorcycle license. So are they offering how long is the course? When I've talked to somebody at the DMV they said said that it was, uh, like it was, it was fairly short. It's like a week long course.

And then there's like an end test. And if you can pass the end test, you get, uh, you get your license. Is there, is there any other safety course or safety training that you would take outside of what the DMV requires? I can. I haven't looked into it, but of course, I can always discuss that. How much does insurance cost to insure a Ninja, like a 2016 Ninja? Okay, so we have a state farm.

And, okay, so this is, so my mom has been bringing up insurance and that I would need to pay for my insurance. So I called them and my, if I were to, the Ninja itself, the 2016 Ninja would be over six months, it would be $485. And the car, the Kia, every six months for me to be insured on that car, he said about $900. And so it's a fair amount cheaper. Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Lee, you know your own insurance policy, your own auto insurance policy. I do, actually. I do. The current insurance for him to be added onto our insurance was

approximately $100 a month. So it's about $600 every six months. Right. So $1,200 a year. You're paying for them on your insurance policy now, right? Yes, we are. Okay. Currently, yes. That's one thing I wanted to talk about.

So this kind of goes back to, you're probably going to say this is, again, just asking for a handout. Well, let's see. My thing was when I was telling you about selling the Kia Soul and buying the motorcycle is that they already gave me this money for the Kia Soul. And if I'm not using it, why not re-divert it towards the motorcycle, which you said no to. But the same goes for the insurance, in my opinion, because if they're already paying – if the motorcycle costs less insurance for them to pay every six six months so you would be saving you would be saving them money is your argument yes i would be saving them money is by not having by not being by not having a third car and rather the uh the motorcycle they're not going to pay to insure you

to drive a motorcycle because they don't want you to drive a motorcycle. So if you're going to drive a motorcycle, that's going to be coming out of whatever your savings. Do you have a job? Not currently, no. She wants me to get one over the summer, and I would like to get one over the summer as well. Yeah, well, you should, I don't know, think about that. Okay, and there was one other thing that came up.

May I say something, Your Honor? Sure. On this? Okay, so I did my own research. A 16-year-old, unless they are on their parents' policy, cannot get motorcycle insurance in Georgia. They would have to be on somebody else's policy. Under the age

of 18, you cannotia they would have to be on somebody else's policy under the age of 18 you cannot he uh would have to um do that under us therefore that ain't gonna happen no right and so therefore you're not gonna you're not gonna you're not going to go against your terror of your child dying in order to save what is it 230 a year yeah 230 a year again this is not saying that you're getting on a motorcycle is fait accompli you're going to die this is what you know your mom's doing her math and you're doing your math and your math is right it's going to save them a little bit of money i was like no thank you we'll pay the we'll pay double how about that right i bet

i bet you would pay double the insurance if it meant that he couldn't get on a motorcycle exactly and the other thing is at 18 for him to get his own policy all by his little self or big self at that point he's taller than i am um would be approximately and i looked at a mid-range used motorcycle um i did not know the one he was looking at so i looked at a mid-range used motorcycle. I did not know the one he was looking at, so I looked at the Suzuki 50, which was around $7,000 to buy used. The insurance for that would be $220 a month at 18 years old for a single male, and that coverage is only at mid-range for collision, bodily injury, and property damage.

It is not the bare minimum of insurance, but it is not the upper maximum either. So this would be right about mid-range for any kind of bodily injury, damage, collision, things of that nature. One last thing before I go into my chambers, Duncan. I understand also from the petition to this court from your mother that you are interested in vaping the trump card has been played yes okay you you wish to you wish to vape you want to get a vaporizer for like e-cigarettes? A vape pen. It's different. A vape pen. All right. And this is a conversation between you and your mom?

Because why, Lee? Oh, because he keeps asking for one and I keep saying no. And I keep saying no because the standards on the vape pens and the liquids the flavored liquids this is he doesn't want to do nicotine um we have a family history of lung cancer he knows that again it's he wants to look cool and uh it's not about looking cool yeah i would like to i would like to hear because you know get a motorcycle even a motorcycle which is not to my taste like the Kawasaki 2016 Ninja, it is to someone's taste. It is still cool. Motorcycles are cool. But vaping is the antithesis of cool.

It may literally be the least cool thing in the world. In my opinion. I would say that accountancy is probably cooler than vaping. I mean, I have a history of lung cancer in my family as well. Specifically, my mom passed away from lung cancer very swiftly at a very young age in a devastating way to me. And yet I would almost encourage an almost 17-year-old to smoke cigarettes for a year than vape for a day. Correct. Because the other issue is that there are no standards on the vape pens yet

and there are no standards on the flavored liquids look i know there are people who enjoy vaping and maybe they use vape pens in order to try to move away from cigarette smoking and i hope you understand duncan that i am not encouraging you to pick up smoking i am simply saying from the point of view of coolness one thing is deadly and and malicious and um and evil but cool and the other thing is a vape pen in my opinion which is correct but judge hodgman are you telling me seriously that the vaping congressman duncan hunter of san diego isn't cool maybe we're talking to him right now duncan are you the vaping congressman no no i am not uh why do you want to why do you want to vape uh flavored liquids you guys can fight back and forth about health hazards

with regard to vaping but i can tell you there is 100% no health hazard from not vaping. So I'm asking you why, what's the attraction to you? Okay. So I'm a very, I'm a person who moves a lot and I'm constantly like moving or wiggling or, you know, I get bored easily just sitting around or doing things like that

and a vape pen is just something i guess to like take my take my mind to it's just something to do and you've done it no no you've never had a puff from someone else's at school no all right no i don't know of anybody in my school that does it. How much do they cost? It depends on how nice of one you get. I mean, you could buy very cheap ones at about $30 or $40. What's the key of soul of vape pens? I mean, mid-range is probably like $60 to $80 or so. Okay. I think I've heard everything I need in order to make my decision. I'm going to ATV my way back to my chambers and hope I don't tip over, and I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Duncan, I'm going to let you speak first here. How do you feel you represented yourself in this case? I feel I represented myself pretty well. I guess a lot of the ideas that make sense to me didn't make sense to the judge. For example, like selling the third car and buying the motorcycle with the money. To me, that just makes sense that, you know. That your parents would support you in the way that you see fit. Well, but it's just if the third car is of no use any longer and they've already put down the money to buy this car for me. That money's gone.

It's called a sunk cost, right? I'm sorry. I'm trying to follow your business logic here. Okay. They've already put down this money for my car and I no longer want this car and I'm using a new form of transportation. Yeah, they should sell it and go on vacation. You're right.

No. Lee, how do you feel about your chances in that case? You know, Jesse, I have no idea. I really don't know. I feel that there are two kind of competing things, which is that you like what you like, and I have no problem with Duncan liking motorcycles or even liking vaping. It's just until he is,

I'm no longer the responsible parent. I'll always be a parent, but the responsible parent, I think it's my job to protect him. So I think it's kind of a, it is difficult. And I didn't even get a chance to pander. I was trying to get a pander a little. Save your, save your pandering. Unless you're

going to talk to me about the 1989 San Francisco Giants. I will not allow your pandering. It was about being a Max Fund supporter, but I wasn't. That's okay. But it's no, just saying the name. If you just said, if you said hose, no, just said, you can't talk about the Braves? If you said, no, absolutely not. You can't talk about the Braves. This conversation is over. We'll be back in just a second with the judge's decision

on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. You probably want to talk about Sid Bream. Sickening. I'm Dave Holmes. And if you've been missing my show, International Waters,

you've been missing this. If there's one thing I know about owls, they are wise. Two things. They are wise. They love nightclubs. They wear tiny graduation motorboards and they love nightclubs. They also do the best double takes

of all birds of prey. And if you slow it down, they actually go... International Waters, a panel show where U.S. and U u.k comedians battle for pop culture supremacy subscribe right now on itunes or a maximum fun.org ladies and gentlemen please rise as judge john hodgman re-enters the courtroom vroom vroom that's my that's my imitation of a motorcycle and a vape pen.

Duncan, you're an exemplary kid, in my opinion. You're exemplary for two reasons. One, because you are conscientious enough to even be having this conversation with your mom. And truly, you know, thinking it through and asking her things like, can I have a vape pen? As opposed to going, being a bad kid and going behind everyone's back and scrounging together 30 bucks and keeping a vape pen in secret. Good for you for wanting to live your life in the open and include your mom in the truth of where you are in your life's journey. I'm an almost 17-year-old kid who wants to vape pen and ride a motorcycle, even though

if you're on a motorcycle, the minute I'm telling you, you put that vape pen in your mouth, all the coolness of the motorcycle dissipates completely. And it's like you might as well be riding one of those massive three-wheeled motor tricycles that you see going down the road with the two wheels in front and the one wheel in back. I'm sure there's some folks out there who love those things, and I apologize. But it's like the worst of all worlds. And you're an exemplary kid and adolescent, too, because your logic is perfect adolescent logic. you believe yourself to be part of a family with a stake in it such that you might make a proposition such as, you know, I really don't use this Kia for hauling anything around. Why don't you sell it and buy me a motorcycle? And that's a good deal for you because you'll save money and you'll get a little bonus off of the profit from selling

the Kia. Forgetting that it's not your money, you know? These are the arguments that are made to me by my 14-year-old, soon-to-be 15-year-old daughter all the time, the kind that presume, yeah, we're all partners in this. We all partners we all live together we're roommates sharing the same shared pool of money so yeah buy me a vape pen won't you like no no thank you you don't control the purse strings now we might arrange marriage between you and my daughter we'll see about that finally consolidate these two families i i'm not saying this to yell at you or to say you're woefully misguided. You are completely and utterly normally misguided with regard to how finances work in your house and, of course, in the world. I mean, you know, you've got to get a job. You want things that people don't want to

buy for you? Then you have to buy them for yourself. Now, that we clarified from the beginning. Now I will say I went into this feeling torn because motorcycles are demonstrably more dangerous to be on than a car is to be in. Truly, the preposition says it all. You are on top of a fast moving engine and your only protection aside from leather is a helmet um it's just plain on its face even you uh duncan acknowledged this yes but this. Yes. But like a lot of things that we choose to do in our lives that carry risk, there is a beauty to motorcycles. And there is obviously a coolness to them because of the risk that's involved. And as someone who recently, or I would say the past five years, came into possession of a four-wheel drive vehicle, car, manual transmission, that has a removable roof and doors, the experience of driving in the open air at that where it's really just the air is like yelling at you.

It's a very different and incredible experience and an incredible way to enjoy the countryside. the countryside. And if it was very possible that a 16 going on 17 year old, especially a precocious kid, and especially a precocious only child like yourself, might come to me and say, Judge Sean Hodgman, my mom doesn't want me to get a motorcycle when I turn 17. But here's the deal. me to get a motorcycle when I turn 17. But here's the deal. I have saved this money. I have identified a small, modest two-wheel vehicle that's a great place to start learning how to drive a motorcycle. Something like the Suzuki JR50. I have a job. I have a way to pay for the insurance. I wish to consult with Alton Brown about what is the most intense safety training courses that I can take.

I intend not just to make my mom feel better, but for my own proficiency as a driver to test to get the license and then exclusively ride my motorbike on a private property, a private property, country roads, maybe only in a parking lot on a Sunday morning for six months to a year before I even start to commute on it to and from school. And I just hope that my mom understands that I'm going to be super duper responsible and to let me give it a shot. And here's the thing. You did the best research you could, but your mom had a lot of facts and figures. She had it all.

She was super duper prepared. And what you did instead was choose the most terrifying racing bike that you could find and demand that, or, you know, attempt to demand that your mom finance it for you so that you could go to and from school, saying nothing about getting experience riding the motorcycle in an unpopulated area, specifically driving to and from school, where you have suggested that you might even take the highway, even though there are other options, in an incredibly vehicularly dense metro-urban area that is Atlanta.

So I have to say, I wish you luck, sir, because I want you to ride a motorcycle. I can say that because I am not your mom. But there are checks and balances in the parental relationship, the parental-adolescent relationship. adolescent relationship and the the the check upon um your as yet uh and i say this value neutral immature understanding of and plan for your motorcycle uh is that your mom doesn't have to pay for it and she's not gonna and uh i think that given that I trust your mom's assessment, we could, we could be wrong. Your mom's evidence that you could not even get insured as an individual in the state of Georgia for a motorcycle until you were 18 suggests to me that absolutely 18 is the minimum age by which you become a you would you should

consider getting one you become a legal adult then and really nobody can stop you and if you get your own money together to do it then you got to do it but 17 uh-uh and may i encourage you uh don't i mean don't ride a motorcycle seriously seriously uh i never in, don't ride a motorcycle. Seriously? Seriously. I would ride a motorcycle through the country roads of Maine during the daylight in the summertime for sure. After I practiced for a year and learned and knew what I was doing. But I would never in a million years ride a motorcycle in Atlanta. Just having been there? Uh-uh. I barely, I'm terrified of driving there a lot of the time. But that's just because I feel death's cold breath on the back of my neck every day.

You're different. But, you know, those are the things. Those are my recommendations, which is don't. And if you are going to do it, get tons of safety training, wait till you're a grownup, buy it yourself, make the investment, learn how to work on it, learn how to repair it, get knowledge because it's better than not having knowledge and be safe. But getting your mom to sell a car to buy you one when you turn 17, I regret to say that particular Chevy Kawasaki was a non-starter.

Before I say the last words, like, get a job this summer. It's so great. Having a job is so great. I take it from someone who doesn't have one now. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the room. Lee, how do you feel about this decision? I feel, I think, pretty good about it. I hope that what the judge's very thoughtful and very important decision says is also that I don't have to have this argument about this and or vaping anymore.

We're not going to talk about it. It is settled law and I don't have to talk about it anymore. That's probably how it's going to work out. Right, Duncan? Yeah, I won't talk about it anymore. It's fine. Yeah, he's laying the groundwork now. He's going to get that job, mom. This is what happened. He's going to get that job, Mom.

This is what happened. He's going to get that job. He's going to start saving his money. He's going to pick out a motorcycle and he's going to get it. And he's going to spike both of us. And he's going to drive down the highway. Standing on top of it. Surfing it.

And giving us both the bird. Duncan, how do you feel about the decision? I think it's a very fair decision, and I do understand that, you know, I am 16, I don't really understand finances that much. I would like to say a lot of the things that he did mention, I would be okay with instating, like the practicing for a year and not driving on't but you didn't that's the thing i it

didn't really i felt like it didn't come up i i wanted to get it out yeah but it was on you to bring it up i mean this is i'm not saying this to lecture you i'm just saying if you had then i'd be like dude knows his stuff but because you didn't it it served as evidence to me that you either haven't thought of it or don't realize how important it is to say that to your mom and to your dad and to me, your other dad. It's just evidence. It was evidence that you're not quite there yet, but you'll get there. Well, Duncan Lee, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Another case in the books. Judge Hodgman, you're coming to Los Angeles. Am I right or am I right? June 9th, I will be performing at Largo at the Coronet, where I'll be presenting my one-man

show, Vacationland, at an encore performance. I hope that you will come and see it. Tickets are available via the link at johnhodgman.com slash tour. Our producer is Julia Smith. Our editor is Mark McConville. If you want to join me and lots of other awesome MaxFun personalities and amazing personages, comics and performers and teachers from around the world, I hope we will see you at MaxFunCon. Tickets are on sale for MaxFunCon East in the Poconos right now at MaxFunCon.com, along with all the information, except for the lineup, which is secret, but you can look at past performers.

Last time we did it, I'm not trying to brag or anything, but we had Dick Cavett there. Oh, what a time that was. Yeah, remember when we were friends with Dick Cavett? That was great. We're still we had Dick Cavett there. Oh, what a time that was. Yeah, remember when we were friends with Dick Cavett? That was great. I'm still, we're still friends with Dick Cavett. I bet you Dick Cavett considers us friends. He made fun of my suit. That's the sign of friendship, right?

I bet right now he's listening to this going, why haven't they invited me back? Mr. Cavett, you're so invited back. But we have lots of other amazing people coming. So maxfuncon.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfun.org slash JJHO, big or small. We looks at them all. And if you want to email us, it's Hodgman at maximumfun.org. You can also join us on social media. I am at twitter.com slash jesse thorn. John is twitter.com slash Hodgman. And on Facebook, there's an awesome Maximum Fund group, and you can like Judge John Hodgman.

Thanks this week to James Hupp for naming our case and for having a great name. I really like James Hupp. It's very punchy. Hupp, hupp, hupp, hupp. Okay, we'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.