Judge John Hodgman - Into The Ralphaverse

Episode Date: June 1, 2022

As the school year comes to an end all around the USA, so does Prom Season. We bring in Prom and school dance expert Jordan Morris (BUBBLE, Jordan, Jesse, Go!) help us clear the docket! We talk all about prom: corsages, scorned dates, promposals, and prom conventions that are worthy of a little side-eye.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. We're in chambers this week to clear the docket. And with me, as always, is the bell of the ball, Judge John Hodgman. The bell of the ball. The prom jester, I would say, in prom season. In the prom court, I am the only one who can speak the truth to the prom monarch, the prom motley fool, and your judge, John Hodman. This is our prom docket that we promised appropriately. And that is the laughter of one Jordan Morris, prom monarch himself. Hello, Judge Bailiff.

Great to be here. Great to be in the courtroom. How are you? I'm doing swell. Loved that prom promise joke. So if we can kind of just keep this pace for the rest of the episode, we're going to have a classic on our hands. Jordan is, of course, a comic and comedy writer.

You might have seen him on Good Mythical Morning. You might have heard him on the Jordan Jesse Go podcast, of which I am the co-host. And you might, of course, know him from the commercial he did with NBC4's Fritz Coleman, a local legendary weatherman in Southern California. And Eisner Award nominee. Isn't that correct? It's almost correct, John. It's actually two Eisner nominations for the graphic novel Bubble, based on the Max Fun podcast, in which you appear, John.

That's right. So where's my Eisner? I get a little piece of it, right? I get a little tiny piece? I'll chip off a piece of this comic book award and mail it to you in Brooklyn. That'd be great. I'll mention I co-wrote that with Sarah Morgan, The Arts by the Great Tony Cliff. Available wherever you get your books and comics. I want to ask, because this is our prom docket, Bailiff Jesse Thorne, how many proms have you been to in your life? I went to three proms.

Break it down. All at School of the Arts in San Francisco. We had a junior-senior combined prom because it was a small school. Right. My sophomore year of high school, I went with Trinity. My junior year of high school, that was all about me and Jennifer. Senior year, my soon-to-be beautiful wife, Teresa Thornton. By soon-to-be, I mean roughly 15 years later. Roughly 15 years later.

I went to two. We had no junior prom at Brookline High School, unless I'm forgetting something. And I was not particularly interested in prom because of my counterculture, long hair, fedora hat wearing ways. Couldn't put in public television watching Friday night style. Yeah, couldn't put me in a box. I'm not a prom goer. Also, I had no one to go with. Put you in a phone box. Put me in an emergency police telephone call box. That's where I would promenade or promissory under the stars. Yeah. You didn't have time for proms. You had poetry readings to go to and lectures on no no i was

i was busy with rehearsals with my own theatrical troupe that went nowhere right but i did go to two proms the first one i was invited by my friend aliza shapiro who was a senior at the time i was a junior and then the next year i went with the person who is now my wife and as a whole human being on her own, right? Just like Jesse Thorne. I went with Teresa Thorne. No,

I went with this other person, even though she was also older than me. She had already gone to college. She came back from my prom. If I remember correctly, but Elisa Shapiro, who invited me, one of the coolest people on earth.

And you will see, she wore a pillbox hat to the prom, her prom that I went with. correctly. But Aliza Shapiro, who invited me, one of the coolest people on earth, and you will see, she wore a pillbox hat to the prom, her prom that I went with. She just posted on a popular social networking platform photos of us. I'm going to share it in the chat and I'm going to get permission from her to put this up because it has to be, you know, you have to enjoy embarrassing photos, right? See if this goes in the chat. Wow. You weren't kidding about the hair. Oh, yeah, that's right. I had my long hair then.

I was a junior in high school. Yeah. Were you in Dinosaur Junior at the time? I was in Lil Dinosaur Junior. This is Jay Maskis' prom photo. Wow. Here's a close-up. Let's see if this will go through.

I think she took this photo. That's a really sweet picture. You're wearing a swatch. I think that that's my Keith Haring swatch. But that was, those were the two proms that I went to. Jordan Morris, how many proms you been to? So I went to four proms. Four proms.

Four proms. I think we have identified why Jordan is our guest on this program. proms and i think we have identified why jordan is our guest on this program i was i was but also every other like lesser high school dance your homecomings your winter's formals um i was just a big high school dance enthusiast wow um and i i think i could you could chalk it up to this. So I was also, it will shock everyone to know, very into the drama club in high school. Right. I know. Everyone's jaws are on the floor. Move over, baby.

There's a new number one stunner. Yes. That's exactly. Yes. That's me. And I think part of being in drama club and kind of like, you know, finding your artistic voice, part of that is a phase where I prided myself on being kind of random. A little random. Is this guy random?

I kind of had it in my head that I wanted to be like a funny guy. Right. And I expressed that by being kind of random. A little random. A little random. And a school dance was. People would be expecting you to zig and you'd zag. Yeah.

I would zag. I would zorg. Who's ever heard of zorging? No, that's even more random. Because I was random. You guys zig. you'd zag yeah i would zag i would zorg who's ever heard of zorging no that's even more random because i was random well you guys zig you guys zag i'm over here i'm gonna zomp yeah sure watch me zomp so and a school dance was just a great place to like goof off in public and get a lot of attention which i loved so i would i would love to go to a school dance and and wear something a little weird i did a like a renfair outfit one year i did like the um powder blue dumb and dumber

tuxedo one year um i know i know listen i'm embarrassed and it's why why would you be embarrassed i mean i understand i guess we're all a little embarrassed yeah yeah sure it's it's... Why? Why would you be embarrassed? I mean, I understand. I guess we're all a little embarrassed. Yeah. Yeah, sure. It's high school. I mean, you look at those photos of me. I'm not zomping. You know what I mean? No, no. You're not zomping in those.

I mean, I'm trying to be an oddball, but only because I had high pretensions to my specialness in this world. Right. Right? You know what I mean? I want to be taken seriously. It didn't occur to me that I could have fun, that I could go to a dance and see it as a chance to have fun attention instead of skulk up in the bleachers of the gym complaining

to myself that people don't understand the political implications of this Frankie Goes to Hollywood song. They're all just dancing to it. So yes, but I loved wearing something weird, getting out on the dance floor and doing like a silly dance to come on, ride the train, and ride it. Four proms. How many homecoming dances would you guess? You know, I think I filled the card.

I think I did four proms, four homecomings, four winter formals. That's a total of 16 dances, 16 weird outfits, and 16 embarrassed dates. What do they call that in baseball, Jesse Thorne? A grand load? Yeah, that's called a grand load. Comes with two sausage links, two pieces of bacon, your choice of toast. You hit every dance that was available to you? I think so, yes.

And did you have dates? Did you go with dates or did you go with friends? I did. I, these were, yeah, these were friends. So my, I was a little bit of a late, also this will shock people. I was a little bit of a late bloomer when it came to dating. Oh, sure. So I think the only time I went with a date was with my senior year with my like first

girlfriend. That's appropriate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. year with my like first girlfriend that's appropriate yeah yeah yeah um but every every everybody else was a friend um uh yeah which which was very very fun a fine way to go to a dance i think um but yes no one was that the best one that you went on or was i mean i don't want you to hurt anybody's feelings but what was the best prom prom. I think... Yo, you know what?

I'm going to shout out one in particular that I thought was really, really fun because on social media, I saw a photo. Someone posted a throwback Thursday type photo of this. My date was Paula Gluzman, a great friend. We went as friends. It was on the Queen Mary. So I grew up in Southern California and our date was on the Queen Mary. So I grew up in Southern California, and our date was on the Queen Mary, which was really, really fun, very cool. And yeah.

The Queen Mary, of course, is a decommissioned ocean liner. Yes. From the glorious days of cross-Atlantic travel that now sits forever at dock in Long Beach, right? Yeah. So yeah, very, very fun uh a very fun place to visit haunted i hear a little spooky yeah definitely i don't know if there's any legitimate haunting that wouldn't surprise me though the only thing spooky about my prom experience was how much making out i was doing to a supernatural degree is what I heard. Oh, yeah. Legend has it that in the bogs of San Francisco, there still exists a cryptid known as the Smooching Man, right? You can hear him smooching if you listen carefully.

Yeah. Listen over the foghorns of foggy San Francisco. You can still hear the ASMR triggering smacks of the smooching man. Hear that, kids? That's the sound of second base. Wherever the theme may be, a night to remember. There goes the smooching man. So let's hear some of these cases for the docket, and you will dispense the king's justice. I will advise you as best I can as the hand of the kingcket and you can you will dispense the king's justice. I will advise you as best I can as the hand of the king.

Thank you. But you will be king. Yes, I have a line. I prefer God king actually because I do have a direct line to God. Direct line to the divinity? Yeah. Here's something from Emily A. My grandmother was a florist when I was in high school and she offered to

make me and my friends corsages for our senior prom. However, my friend Carly said it would be weird to wear them if we didn't have dates. I contend that the corsage is a staple piece of prom wear and can be worn even if one does not have a, quote, date, unquote, so-called. We were already going against prom standards by going as a group of friends. I ended up wearing my corsage, but only my friends with dates got corsages from my grandmother. I request you to order that my friend Carly admit it is not weird to wear a corsage if one has no date. P.S. I would like to note that Carly is a very kind friend who in college encouraged my now boyfriend to ask me out to the strange college prom event that occurred during our freshman year.

All right. A corsage, for any of our listeners who might not know, is a floral arrangement you wear on your wrist. Right, Jesse Thorne? Wear it on your wrist? Yeah, it usually comes with like an elastic band. It's like a halberd. Right. Jesse Thorne, for our listeners who may not know, and for me who is still a little confused, what is a corsage? A corsage is a flower arrangement that is worn on the body, often on the wrist, like a gauntlet, a floral gauntlet.

It's traditionally, you know, in the kind of imaginary, I guess, early 20th century. All these things are so made up and so regional. Right. I guess early 20th century, all these things are so made up and so regional. But in the imaginary early 20th century, kind of the music man version of a prom, it would be given by a boy date to his girl date. And she would reciprocate by giving him a boutonniere to wear in his lapel, which is a flower arrangement. So it's a spray of spring blooms that you'd wear on your wrist, typically. Typically, yeah. And that's how they know that you are the May Queen. I guess.

Ins and you being burned inside a lodge. No, the boyfriend gets burned inside a bear's lodge. Oh, right, I'm sorry. Spoilers. Sorry. Anyway, all right. What do you think about this, oh King, my King, Jordan Morris? Well, I think as I mentioned earlier, I was known to fly in the face of prom tradition

when it came to wear. Right. I thought of another one of my weird outfits, like 1800s Explorer. So I had a pith helmet and like those baggy riding pants. Yeah. I happen to be wearing that outfit right now, Jordan. Anyway, so I am very much in favor of tradition be danged. Wear what you want.

Wear what you think feels good. If you want to wear the corsage, great. Awesome. Who doesn't love a lovely flower? If you don't want to, yeah, who cares? It should be fun. And I think as embarrassed as I am about my

goofiness back in those days, I think I always had fun and I had fun prom memories. And I think a big part of that was just, I got to wear something that I thought was fun. So, uh, if you like the corsage, do it. Uh, if not, who cares? I'm inclined to agree with you. I mean, I feel as though since you're already going on a group friend date, why wouldn't you all celebrate each other by wearing those cool corsages that were made by your grandmom? And why is Carly so mad at your grandmother, Emily A?

That probably hurt her feelings, don't you think? That's what I was wondering. So I wrote to Emily A and I said, is there anything more to this story? And it turns out there is. Mm-hmm. Turns out Emily A's grandmother is a witch. And these corsages were cursed. And all of the friend group who wore the corsages became the evil grandmother's thralls. And what happened was years before the evil grandmother had been teased at prom and made to feel not part of the group. And so this was her revenge. Tale as old as time. A tale as old as time.

So all of these thralls, and Carly knew this and was just trying to protect the friend group, but all the ones who wore the corsages dumped buckets of pig blood on everybody's head. Tale as old as time. Song as old as rhyme. My grandma is so rich. weird no that's not true i think i think emily a's grandmother was just being nice and should have been allowed should have been allowed to make flowers for everybody especially if your grandmother i mean this is the thing right it's like this is like a great story it's like there's all this pressure to be normie at the prom and your grandmother is

saying fudge that, which she's probably saying because she probably doesn't like to swear. Everyone wears flowers. Everyone has a good time. When your cool grandmom is making you flowers for everybody and telling you, blow off tradition, that's when you listen. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org, and they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound.

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take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We're clearing the docket this week with podcaster and Eisner Award nominee Jordan Morris. Chester and Eisner Award nominee Jordan Morris. Here's a case from Kurt. Although my wife will testify that I'm quite a catch now, when I was in high school in the late 80s, I never had a girlfriend. Senior prom carried with it a lot of pressure to attend and to do so with a date. You can probably sense my anxiety through this letter, even after all these years. There were

many girls I wanted to ask, but when the time came to ask them, they were already committed. But as luck would have it, one of my classmates, Chris, broke up with his longtime girlfriend, Kathy, just a week before prom. I summed up the courage to ask her and she said yes. But at prom, Chris pulled Kathy aside and when they returned, they were a couple again. And there I was, alone at my senior prom. I ask that you award damages equaling one week's pain and suffering, emotional toil, and embarrassment. What? Does Kurt say what he wants in damages? Money? He wants them to suffer for a week.

He wants them to suffer for a week. Yeah. Chris and Kathy. For rekindling their love. The crime of love rekindlement. Because he was alone at a senior prom for one night. There wasn't anyone else at the prom that was the big oh it was just the three of them it was just the three of them so he just had to dance

alone to come on right the train just sadly shuffling back yeah okay i get you now it was just a tiny little prom i don't know jordan morris what do you think about this one? Yeah, boy, I think I had something kind of similar at one of my dances. I can remember going with Jamie Tansey. Should I be saying people's full names on the show? The answer is yes. It's fun. They love it. Yeah.

And this was the year that I went in Ren Faire stuff. This is the year I went in. Sure. Kind of. What was the garb? The garb was like, I think my vibe was barred. So it was like one of those flat hats

with a giant feather. Sure. And a kind of a cinched rope bag around my tunic. And did you carry a lute around? No, no lute. But I think maybe that was against the rules. Wait, you couldn a loot around? No, no loot, but I think maybe that was against the rules.

Wait, you couldn't bring a loot to school? To the prom? To prom, I mean? No, I think it could be used as a weapon. Whoa, okay. Yeah, that's true. So, yes. I think at this particular dance we agreed to go as friends, but I think I was hoping it would

turn into something more that it would evolve right um and i think sometime in between agreeing to go with me in the dance jamie had either gotten back together with a boyfriend or found a new boyfriend so it was a thing where we went to the prom together but then there was a little like after prom party, and then he kind of like joined her there. Right. And you were left out in the cold. Were you heartbroken? Yeah, you know, I think I was a little bit, but I think I, you know, I'm maybe giving myself some credit retroactively, but I think I, you know, my philosophy at these things is just to like have fun, be with your friends, manage expectations. So I do still remember it being fun, although I do remember that kind of twinge of rejection.

So, yeah, you know, obviously these are very loaded events. And no matter how casual you want to be about them, there's still baggage that comes with them. So yeah, but I still remember it being fun. I guess my question is, Kurt is asking for damages here. Right. Chris to get back together with Kathy at prom, thus hurting Kurt's feelings by not going along with Kurt's fairly obvious desire to steal his girlfriend from him. Right.

Uh, I mean, obviously I want Kathy to do what's best for Kathy. Right. Kathy. I don't see a lot of consideration for Kathy in any of this. I'm looking out for Kathy here. I just want her to be happy, as I think we all do.

So, yeah, I mean, could she have been a little more tactful? I guess, whatever. But no kid in high school is tactful. It's a highly charged. It's highly charged. I've seen Riverdale. I know what it's like. Right.

Oh my gosh. Exactly right. It's a highly charged emotional time. You don't know how to do anything. Honed to a singularity of anxiety and yearning. Kurt, look, I'm sorry your plan to steal your friend's girlfriend did not work out. I'm sorry that your friend's true feelings and Kathy's true feelings

obviously got the better of them in this highly charged emotional moment of prom and they decided to reunite. I'm sorry that you felt lonely as a result. Although, I mean, it's either you were just going as a friend, in which case, who cares? You should be happy for your friends, Chris and Kathy, for getting back together.

Or you truly were just scheming, scheming up on Kathy. And Chris and Kathy weren't part of your scheme. I'm sorry that all happened to you. I don't blame anyone. As one of my great writing teachers who passed away a few years, Lee K. Abbott wrote, it was the title of his book of short stories, The Heart Never Fits Its Wanting. It was a bad night for you.

It was a good night for them. I see no reason to punish them. It is now time to put it in your past, to forgive them and forgive yourself. The heart never fits its wanting. Check it out. Lee K. k abbott very good writer here's something from michael 30 years ago in high school i had an agreement with a female friend whom i will call ralph by the way any ladies out there whose name is ralph you rule right i want to be friends with you right now. That's the coolest lady name I've ever heard in my life. This is the deal I made with Ralph. If we were both still single by the time prom rolled around,

she and I would go together as friends. Then I met Jennifer. She went to a different high school, and we started dating at the beginning of our respective senior years, thus nullifying the prom agreement I had with Ralph. But as prom loomed closer, no one had asked Ralph to go. I worried she would miss out on prom altogether, so I apologized to Jennifer and went to my prom with Ralph. Jennifer went to her prom with a platonic male friend we both knew. All prom goers had fun. Jennifer and I got married a few months later and have had a pretty good

30 years since. Pretty good. B minus. Pretty good. B minus. Pretty good. But to this day, Jennifer states, I made the wrong decision. I should not have taken Ralph to prom. But I say, had I left Ralph at home, I wouldn't have been the kind of person Jennifer ended up marrying. Instead, I would have been a jerk. Who's right? We got some alternate timeline consideration here. Instead, I would have been a jerk. Who's right?

We got some alternate timeline consideration here. Some multiversal considerations. Jordan, in the universe in which Michael took Jennifer to prom. It's kind of an into the Ralph-iverse that we're dealing with here. Yes, exactly. Would Michael have been a jerk? This is presuming, I suppose, that Ralph didn't go to prom at all because Ralph didn't have a date. I think, I mean, it sounds like.

By the way, this is, I did check in with Michael to verify. No one in this situation is a sorcerer or a witch. Thank you. uh no one in this situation is a sorcerer or a witch but thank you jennifer's prom and michael's prom separate high school same night oh okay so a choice was made so again uh just kudos to michael for uh scoring a girlfriend who goes to a different high school. That is always the coolest thing you can do in high school. Right. Dating someone who goes to a different school. Throughout middle school, I had a girlfriend who lived up in Canada. We just didn't, she didn't come around that much.

She wrote you a lot of letters in your handwriting, right? And Canadian prom is for some weird reason in October. So there was no way you could get up there for that. No possible. She was a cheerleader in a ska group cool named ralph you had a canadian girlfriend named ralph was a cheerleader in a no the ska group was named ralph oh right okay right after her no after ralph mouth from heaven hey you know what jesse you still got it Thank you. each other. And I think Michael was within the parameters of the deal to go with his girlfriend, later wife. And I think it's a nice thing that he did with Ralph. But I mean, I think something like an important lesson you can learn at that point in your life,

an important lesson you can learn at any point in life is that you know you can't you can't spend all of your energy looking out for other people's feelings like you you you do kind of have to look out for yourself so i think that like like there's a lot of things that ralph could have could have done you know they could have all gone together as a group. And again, I think, John, I think you're right that depending on where and when you went to high school, there is a lot of pressure to be normie. This was 30 years ago. It probably would have been less common then for a thruple to show up at prom right but i mean who cares the yeah if that were the right solution emotionally for all of them uh damn the haters and go but yeah i mean that i think clearly michael was working within the stricter sadder confines of what was imaginable to him at that

time um so i think it would have been fine for michael to honor the deal and go with his girlfriend i think he was doing i do think he was genuinely doing a nice thing and it was nice and i hope he and ralph had a good time and i hope it's a great memory for ralph um but yeah but i think just you know in general you know do do what you want to do take who you want to take well you're a very kind and generous sovereign. But I ask you this. What's up with Jennifer? Holding this grudge for 30 years.

Yeah, sure. Okay. Yep. There's something there. You're right. On the one hand, Michael says she went with a friend of hers to her prom. He went with a friend of his to his prom. Everyone had quote unquote fun.

How does that reconcile with the fact that jennifer is still mad about it and i asked michael this as well and he said well she was mostly upset about the letter of the law being violated right that the agreement was null and void and therefore i was no under obligation to ralph and i should have taken her that was the letter of the law and i do do not believe him, nor do I believe Jennifer. I said, do you think she had any other feeling about it? No, it was the letter of the law being violated. I don't believe that, Michael, Jennifer.

I don't know where Ralph is in this situation, but I feel like you've got some owning up to do to each other about how you actually felt about what happened 30 years ago. I mean, I'm glad that you got married and you've had a pretty good 30 years. I'm willing to bet that you're felt about what happened 30 years ago. I mean, I'm glad that you got married and you've had a pretty good 30 years. I'm willing to bet that you're lying about that too. I bet they've been in great 30 years, but I don't think that someone hangs onto something for 30 years saying, yeah, you shouldn't have done that when there was ostensibly no harm done. Do you know what I mean? According to Michael's recollection, there was no harm done, but Jennifer felt there was some harm done or else she wouldn't be saying this. That said, the fact

that the agreement was null and void does not enforce a counter agreement that Michael was then obliged to take Jennifer to his prom. It's true that having a significant other suddenly freed him from his obligation to Ralph, the compact they had made together, but that this does not automatically write a new contract, that Ralph must be thrown over in favor of Jennifer. And as to what was the correct decision, I don't know that Michael even has enough awareness to appreciate that Jennifer was hurt by his actions because he still says, yeah, she's still mad at me for some reason that I didn't take her to prom. This is something you need to explore.

But I don't, I certainly don't have the full scope of the emotions. Like did Ralph feel like she should be taken to prom by Michael? Did they have a connection that made Jennifer feel left out more than just friendship? Did one of them have stronger feelings for the other? It's very, these things are rarely symmetrical. You know, maybe Jennifer felt that Michael thought that was going to something,

something was going to happen between him and Ralph or Ralph thought, or maybe it was simply patronizing for Michael to be like, well, sad little spinster friend, I shall take you to prom. And Ralph felt too polite to say, it's OK, dude, I'm going to go by myself. My name is Ralph and I'm awesome. You know what I mean?

These are all things that it's missing information. Right. Here's some information we do have, John. Yeah. Michael and Jennifer got married a few months later. Yeah. Wow. If Jennifer was uncomfortable with this situation, it may be that the feelings of the person he married a few months later are paramount here. Yeah. No, I, I, I agree. And you know, Michael, I know that you're a,

I enjoyed my correspondence with you. I know that you're a longtime Judge John Hodgman listener. I appreciate your listening and you seem like a very nice guy. But what I was driving at in my conversation with you off mic was it's hard for me to really buy the idea that Jennifer just has held on to this feeling for 30 years for legal reasons. that Jennifer just has held on to this feeling for 30 years for legal reasons. I think that there's emotions here that are worth exploring even down the road. At least you don't have to write me about them anymore. But on basis, I have to say, based on my fake legal reading of your case, as you put it to me had an agreement with ralph that was no longer in

effect that did not mean that you had an automatic agreement with jennifer sorry jennifer prom isn't that important and maybe maybe this has been a source of productive friction through your marriage where you can fight about it for a while and then you know get to make up yeah the smooching man do some over the clothes stuff with the old wife. Maybe it's a productive friction in your marriage. I don't know. But, you know, explore it a little bit, Michael. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, promposals and prom conventions to challenge. and prom conventions to challenge.

Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on

Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Judge Hodgman, we're taking a break from clearing the docket. We're headed to Lincoln Center, so if you're in the tri-state area, you've probably already heard about this, but it's a free show, a free outdoor show at Lincoln Center this month. It's going to be awesome. Our friend Jean Gray is going to be there. Yeah. Let me put it in perspective for everybody. It

has been a long time since Judge John Hodgman has been on the road to delivering live justice to any audiences anywhere. We had a close call. We're almost at that beautiful San Francisco Sketch Fest, but for obvious reasons, it did not happen. We look forward to that happening again in the future. But now it's happening. Now it's happening. Live Justice is returning. And not just returning in a shabby style, but in a grand style.

At Lincoln Center, New York City, Manhattan, the center of the universe, arguably. And not just in a theater, outdoors, under the stars, where there is a lot of fresh air and circulation. And not just at Lincoln Center, outdoors, under the stars, where there's a lot of fresh air and circulation. But it's free. Zero cost to you.

Look, it's June 29th, Lincoln Center, Damrush Park, under the stars. Free and open to you. Look, it's June 29th, Lincoln Center, Damrush Park, Under the Stars, free and open to all. And I'm asking you, the Judge John Hodgman listener, bring a crew, get a crew together. This is a free show. This isn't a high stakes operation. You're not having to buy $40 tickets to convince your friend to like the podcast that you like. This is just a nice summer evening. To top it all off, our friend Jean Gray will be there. You know Jean. You love Jean. We know Jean. We love Jean. We're lucky to know and love her. It's going to be so much fun. June 29th, bit.ly slash JJ Ho Lincoln or anywhere you search up Judge John Hodgman Lincoln Center, you will find a way to reserve your tickets. I have some cool guests coming up on Bullseye

this week. We just had a great interview with Michael Stipe last week. Michael Stipe of REM. That was a really good one. This week two really awesome shows for

people of very broad interests. One is with Adam Scott the legendary Santa Cruzian Parks and Recreation and Stepbrothers star. I did not know he was a Santa Cruzian.

What a delight. He is a Santa Cruzian. He's perhaps the greatest of them all, depending on how you feel about former Major League Baseball outfielder Glenn Allen Hill. Well, I'm neutral. But Adam is on the show. He tells me about how his dad could get him in early to the Monterey Bay Aquarium. I ask him if he could introduce me to some otters. It's a really

wonderful, both deep and silly interview. And also Dan Charnas, who has an amazing new book called Dilla Time that is about how the hip hop producer JD or J Dilla changed the world of music and changed the world of hip hop. He has become a very large scale cult figure in the years since he died about a decade ago. But JD is one of the most important producers in hip hop history. And Dan is an incredible writer and an incredible storyteller

about this really important figure. There's a lot of music in that interview and he'll really break down how and why J Dilla did what he did. And it's such a cool conversation. Dan is an amazing guy and it's such an amazing topic. So there's two great bullseye interviews this week to check out. And Jesse Thorne, if you're listening to this on the day that this podcast has been released, it's June the 1st, so rabbit, rabbit. That means in two days I will be doing,

speaking of animals, my final Get Your Pets of this cycle. As you know, I have an afternoon talk show. I, a person who used to be on actual television, now goes on the internet from time to time to interview people's cats, dogs, rabbits, and other pets, including some really cool bearded dragons of late, a leaping crested gecko, among others.

I do this online streaming. I do it on my Twitch channel, which is twitch.tv slash John Hodgman. You can also watch it on the Facebook page or on my Twitter, which is at Hodgman, or on my YouTube, which you can find by Googling. It's a lot of fun. I did it all throughout our MaxFunDrive. And since we did such a great job on MaxFunDrive and we were having such a good time,

I've been doing it on Fridays, Friday afternoon, weekly. Since then, with this one, June 3rd, being the last for the foreseeable future. I'm going to take a break. I will come back, but this is going to be the farewell to this season of Get Your Pets. And if you've not been following along, don't worry about it. There's nothing you need to know. It's just people watching me talk to cats and dogs and other pets, and it's a lot of fun. And we

learn a lot about each other and our cats and dogs and other pets and a lot of fun. So this is on June 3rd at 3 p.m. Eastern. You can follow me on twitch.tv slash John Hodgman, or you can follow along on Twitter. You can follow me on twitch.tv slash John Hodgman, or you can follow along on Twitter. You can follow on YouTube, the Facebook page, the Judge John Hodgman Facebook page, I should say. So see you on Get Your Pets, 3 p.m. June the 3rd on all those streaming platforms, wherever you get your streams, you'll find it. And yeah, see you at Lincoln Center. Let's get back to the show. Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We're here with Eisner Award nominated comic book writer Jordan Morris, also the co-host of Jordan Jesse Go with some other guy. Here is a case from Amanda. Are you aware of the cultural phenomenon known as the promposal? I'm a high school teacher in Massachusetts. I don't know if this is a New England regionalism or just something relatively new, but boy is it strange. As if going to prom isn't awkward enough, kids in my school believe you can't just ask someone to the prom. You must create and deliver an elaborate promposal, the likes of which rival any actual marriage proposal. We're talking about schemes, surprises, songs, scavenger hunts, you name it.

And here's the kicker. They're usually promposing either the person they're already dating or someone they have never spoken to in their lives. Not a friend or a crush. They go through the school roster using some mysterious algorithm to find the just right stranger. Whoa. Anyway, I would never ask you to rule against the practice that they're clearly taking some pleasure in, but perhaps you could agree the whole thing's a little weird. Just so that I'm not the only older person passing judgment on these teens it's rare that we have a case where there are not two distinct litigants

but I did feel like I wanted to take this case this is a class action lawsuit by olds against teens olds against teens in the case of old man v cloud what find you get out of my sky cloud you don't look like an elephant In the case of old man V. Cloud, what find you? Get out of my sky, cloud.

You don't look like an elephant. You just look like mush. I hate it when clouds don't look like things. I think we all do, John. How dare they? It's an insult to my own imagination. I'm lying on my back in a field. Come on, look like something. Amanda says, I would never ask you to rule against the practice they're clearly taking some pleasure in,

but perhaps I would agree the whole thing is a little weird. I will not agree that the whole thing is a little weird. It actually sounds fun, potentially. But I will agree to rule against the practice they're taking pleasure in. How can I do this? How can I defy both of your expectations, Amanda? Well, here's why. I think, and Jesse and Jordan, you can step in if you disagree.

I think doing an elaborate proposal to someone that you are dating and have a relationship with in a way that is fun for you, fun for the person you are promposing to, fun for everyone. If it's fun for everyone, I consider that to be fun. I don't see a problem with that. That's fun. Promposing to a perfect stranger, now I'm getting Carrie vibes. Now that sounds like a joke. Yep. That seems like a mean prank. Yeah.

I'm loving this so far, John. Right. That just seems, uh, could be very confusing and no fun at all for the person who's getting, it's like, uh,

it's like getting a prank call. It's like tricking some theater nerd into thinking that he's the homecoming King. Exactly. Exactly. like tricking some theater nerd into thinking that he's the homecoming king exactly exactly and i'm not saying that this is necessarily in bad taste every time or mean-spirited or in bad faith every time but i think that surprising someone who you do not know with a promposal i'm like dr strange that goes right in one in four billion possible futures it doesn't seem right to me so i agree with you there yeah and i think there's an element too of like these are they seem like these are for the benefit of social media a lot of times people

are doing this for the likes doing it for the gram doing it for um you know whatever app these young people are on these days yeah they're doing it for the likes not for the loves thank you yeah and and this is about love not linkedin exactly that's a t-shirt right there so yeah so i think i think there's an element too of like i i understand how this could be fun and if i was in if this was a trend when i was in high school i would have been all over this in the most embarrassing way possible i would have um yeah i would have wanted to do dances and flash mobs and things like this um you would prompose to another i probably would yeah if i was if this is what you're saying. Yes, I think I would have.

If you could have figured out how to prompose to yourself in the most embarrassing way possible... Right. You wouldn't be homecoming king right now. You'd be homecoming deity. Right. Homecoming lord. Homecoming lord of lords. Host of hosts.

So, yeah. I mean, I think there's just maybe a general, this is a good time to encourage the young people who I know listen to the show in droves. They do. They do. In droves. So I think this is a good, just maybe a good opportunity to tell the youngs, hey, you don't have to be so online.

That's something I should tell myself as well. Something to remind myself. Hey, let's all try and be a little less online and not all. All right. This isn't your therapy, Jordan. Let's move on. John. Okay.

So my dad, he was kind of withholding. He was, he and my mom didn't have a great relationship. So he wasn't around a lot. Listen, my sovereign. Prom lord, please. I kind of like prom lord. Prom lord. Listen, prom sovereign. Prom lord, please. I kind of like prom lord now. Prom lord. Listen, prom lord.

Yeah. While Jesse and I take care of this last case on the docket, you don't even listen to this one. Okay? We can handle it. I'm going to take out my earbuds. If you could go back in time and figure out the best way to prompose to yourself how Jordan Morris of old, to propose to yourself how Jordan Morris of old, informed by the comedic sense of Jordan Morris of today, will be the best self-promposal, then you can let us know. Take your time.

Think about it. Do you have some scratch paper and a pencil or something? Right here. Always do. Let's put a bow on this case, John. I think public promposals are coercive and weird. They do strike me as reasonable if you're in a relationship and it is self-evident that you will be going to prom with the person with whom you are in a relationship. I think that's true of a prom invitation in a way that it might not be for, say, a public wedding proposal.

But yes, for strangers, big time Carrie vibes. And by the way, Jesse, you raise a good point. Like if this is a high school couple who are obviously going to prom together, a promposal is kind of a funny bit of theater, which can be very enjoyable.

Probably let a lot of kids, a lot of other kids feel left out, but okay, but you know, for you and your friends, fun. Proposing to someone this way for marriage, no, don't do that. Absolutely not. No way, Jose.

No way, Jose. No, don't do that. This is a serious private moment that you should enjoy together. And also, you don't propose in public and spring it on somebody unless the both of you are theater kids and you have decided to get married and you're going to do a weird public bit for your parents or your friends or your families or everyone at the sports game or whatever, like if you're both in on it. I think that's ultimately what it comes down to. You have to be both in on it. But people who are proposing to their spouses by like surprising them in public, no, don't do it. Bad news. Here's a case from Celeste. I'm a professor of gender and sexuality studies. A handful of my first year

U.S.-based students have told me that their school's rules were that only a gender-assigned at birth boy or man and gender-assigned at birth girl or woman can attend prom together. One student also noted that if someone wanted to go with a same-gender friend, or one could just say friend, they needed to provide proof that they asked people of the quote-opposite-unquote gender to go with them and were rejected. Oh, jeez. I ask you to declare an injunction on these schools and urge educators and those with power in places like these institutions Oh, jeez. jesse thanks for playing my momentous occasions thanks for calling in momentous occasions i'm

going to presume that they also love jordan hey thanks but i do like that i have been highlighted and jordan left out that does feel good i don't think they even knew that jordan was going to be on the case there's no way that celeste knew the thing that i mean there's a lot that's so upsetting about this letter. One of which is that I'm sure it's not uncommon in lots of parts of this country, even parts of this country where you don't think it would happen. It probably is true. But the thing that, one of the things that gets me is this last bit about I would urge educators and those with power in places like these institutions to oppose these queer phobic policies if they feel safe to do so. For indeed, a lot of these educators and school board members probably don't feel safe to do so because there is a coordinated right-wing attack on public school boards right now to replace genuine hardworking citizens of all different political spectrums trying to do

the best for students and replace them instead with hard right-wing, anti-queer, anti-trans, anti-LGBTQ plus activists who will do this kind of thing and make it worse and make students feel more ashamed, more isolated, more unsafe than they probably already do within a lot of their communities. And ban more books and more conversations about being simple humanity. And it's really, really obviously very upsetting. And I hope that you think about this when you go forward into this midterms and into the next election cycles, not merely in terms of who you vote for on state and local and then obviously national elections. But I hope that you think, too, if you consider maybe running for school board or being aware

of the school board races that are going on in your community so that you can find out where these school boards are being targeted by coordinated right-wing activism, anti-transphobic and homophobic and all kinds of other phobic activism. And we can push back against this in your own communities because this is really, really, really gross and dehumanizing and awful. I don't know. I don't know what else to say about it. That's my injunction. Jesse Thorne, you want to add something to this? I do. Yeah. As a semi-journalist, I'm obliged not to speak on anything involving elections. But I can say that my wife wrote a beautiful book for elementary school aged kids and preschool aged kids called It Feels Good to Be Yourself that is about gender. And it is a beautiful and inclusive, positive book. There's nothing weird or bad or gross in this book. It is a moving and lovely book about all kinds of kids. And it's been on some of these banned book lists. It's been pulled from schools and libraries

and so forth. And it is very distressing and upsetting to me to think about kids who are not being recognized, not being seen, not being supported, and kids who would love to see and recognize and support themselves and their peers and are not getting the tools to do so. So yeah, I'm also upset about some of these things. In general, I have been on this show, I think a few times, supportive of the, if you're alternative or you're a nerd or a geek or you're otherwise different, or you're a nerd or a geek or you're otherwise different, still go to prom and do your thing. And I think we've heard that on this show with me, a weirdo who went to a weirdo high school, and Jordan, a theater dork who went to a pretty normal high school or pretty classic American high school. a pretty normal high school or pretty, pretty classic American high school. Um, I think we've heard two versions of like, uh, alternative-y type people who went and participated in their own way and had a nice time and we're glad they did that. And in general, I've, you know, spoken out on,

on behalf of that. Like, I think your anxieties in, inieties in most of these situations, your anxieties as a teen are so great that it can prevent you from going and having a nice time and having done a special thing, especially if you can do it your way. In this case, I mean, Valerie, get the bleep button going, but these people can go f*** themselves. They can truly go f*** themselves. Up your nose with a rubber hose to people who are making these demands of kids. These people are in the part of their life where they are discovering who they are. They are learning about who they are. And when you do stuff like this, you teach them that the way they are is wrong.

And that is something that takes such extraordinary work to undo. And every brave person who went through this when they were an adolescent or when they were a kid, whether it's about their gender or their sexuality or any other part of who they are and was able to overcome it, you're awesome. You're a hero. Everybody who's still struggling with it, you're awesome. You're a hero. And everybody who chose to do this to young people in their families, in their communities, in their schools, whatever, go f*** yourself. Think about the choices that you are making for people who are just trying to learn to live their own lives, to be themselves. You can't change who someone is. And you have the choice to accept and support them or not. So I am with Celeste and I imagine that Celeste is one of these people because they mentioned that they use they them pronouns. You know, I don't know where they are on the you know, I don't know what their gender identity is, but I can imagine that it wouldn't fit very well with these kinds of policies.

So I'm I'm grateful that you Celeste are providing an example to the young adults that you're working with in teaching. And yeah, if you're one of these educators or administrators or parents or school board members or whatever who are imposing these kinds of policies on kids and young adults, go f*** yourself. Yeah. And to these kids, like, to go with a friend, you have to prove your rejection. I mean, it's medieval. Do something cool. Speaking of medieval, go to Medieval Times. I've heard that is very fun. Go to the Ren Faire.

Go to a more accepting place. I could not more celebrate young people in this position who figure out their own thing to do. Yeah. Don't let these f***ers get you down. Figure out your own thing to do with your friends, other people from your community, people you've met at the library, whatever. Right. I don't care if you go to a ball game, have a D&D game,

have a wild dance in an abandoned warehouse, whatever it is, do your thing in a space that allows you to be yourself. Just with regard to the abandoned warehouse, be careful of tetanus. Yeah. Be careful of rustiness. And be careful of vampires or blades. Right.

Yeah. I mean. Because that's where they like to party. That's where they like to party. Yeah. The docket is officially clear. But John, I think we have one more matter to attend to here. Jordan, prom lord? Yes.

Thank you. I was not going to answer unless you said prom lord, so I'm glad you caught yourself in adding it. I'm sorry to have put you on the spot. Prom is an anxiety-producing topic. Do you have the perfect promposal for Jordan Moore as prom lord? Self-promposal. I think I do. What would you have done?

What would you do today? So I think here's how I would do it. I think I would take myself, the prom lord, to one of our favorite spots. I don't know if this is a soda fountain, a boardwalk somewhere. It's probably Pie and Burger. Pie and Burger in Pasadena. If you're ever in Pasadena, hit up Pie and Burger. You know what's good?

The pies and the burgers. Awesome. Yep. So we'd go to one of my favorite spots, our favorite spots, I should say. And I think I would just have a sincere moment and I would just say, Hey, Jordan.

I always have fun when we're together. Um, I'm looking forward to prom. I just want to make sure it's a, it's a fun night where we can celebrate with our friends. I would love it. If you would go with me to the prom, hit it.

Quad city DJs. Come on, school, the dance and school it come on school the dance and school it and then uh a flash mob comes out and right then it'll be a flash of all your friends everybody does ribbon dancing and then a huge lute solo just a shredding eight minute lute solo sure sure like the guy from the guy from mad max fury road yes exactly someone's chained to a big rig shredding on a lute i live i die i live again it's definitely sting that's shredding on the lute right he's touring with quad city dj touring with Quad City DJ's big promposal show. Exactly. It's tag team Quad City DJs and special guest Sting on the loot. Featuring Sting. Yeah. All right, Doc, it's clear. That's it for another episode of Judge

John Hodgman. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Our editor is Valerie Moffitt. You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. We're on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. Make sure to hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJHO, and check out the Maximum Funds subreddit to discuss this episode. Judge, we have a very exciting special docket coming up, and we're going to need a very particular type of case. That's right, Jesse. We will be joined by our friend and your friend, Linda Holmes, host of NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast, as well as the author of the great novel Evie Drake Starts Over, as well as the great forthcoming novel Check Your Local Listings, and former dorm mate of David Reese at Oberlin College, Linda Holmes, will be back to discuss a term that she brought first to us on the Judge John Hodgson podcast, your little weirdsies. How would you define little weirdsies, Jesse Thorne? Well, I'm no Linda Holmes, but as Nika Costa once sang, everybody's got their something.

as Nika Costa once sang everybody's got their something there are things about which all of us are a little

weird these are our little weirdsies and we are looking for cases about your little weirdsies or

your partner or friend or colleagues little weirdsies we want to know what are the things about which you are slightly unreasonable. Send us your little weird Z's disputes at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. And of course, send us all of your disputes. The whole show is based on disputes. MaximumFun.org slash JJHO.

Jordan, what a pleasure to have you here. So wonderful to hear of your royal upbringing through the gauntlet of various proms and homecomings. And I love your promposal and I accept. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Judge. Thank you, Bailiff. Thank you for your wisdom. And thank you for having fun with me here today. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.