Judge John Hodgman - Is Butter Pecan For Old People?

Episode Date: June 10, 2026

Is Butter Pecan ice cream for old people? Or is it a flavor for all ages? It's time to clear the docket of all your coldest Ice Cream Queries. Is it okay to lie to a restaurant and tell them it’s your birthday to get free dessert? What should you do when your spouse and kids eat all your vegan ice cream - even though you buy them dairy ice cream too? What’s the best way to eat an ice cream sandwich? Plus, we get into the history of vanilla (yes, it’s a flavor!), chocolate-covered bugs in ice cream (good, actually), and break down the various niche ice cream orders of Judge Hodgman’s native New England. But first, we start our episode with our experience going to Mexico with our friends at Al Otro Lado, and how they work to improve the lives of migrants on both sides of our border. Ready yourselves for the brain freeze, and take a big scoop out of this episode of the Judge John Hodgman Podcast! NIGHT COURT is coming to the Coolidge Corner Theatre in Brookline, MA on June 11th! That’s TOMORROW! So grab those tickets, New Englanders, this is YOUR chance to experience the all-new live show from Judge John Hodgman at a venue near you. Get your tickets here! ---Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I am bailiff Jesse Thorne. We're clearing the summer docket with me is Judge John Hodgman. Hi, John. How are you? Well, I'm very well, Jesse. How are you? I'm back in Brooklyn, New York.

You are back, as always, at headquarters at Maximum Fun in downtown Los Angeles. But while this is coming out after Memorial Day, so you know I'm wearing my white pants and my Searsucker underwear. Uh-huh. A little bit before Memorial Day, we went to Mexico together. Yeah, that was a pretty amazing thing. So as long-time listeners know, or even medium-time listeners know, a year or so ago, we ran a fundraising campaign for our friends at an organization called Al-Otrolado,

who do services for migrants on both sides of the U.S.-Mexico border. And we thought, we truly thought, or at least I truly thought, that we might be able to match through fundraising the – my wife and I put up 30K, and I was like, I wonder if we could match this. like I really wanted to do something. And I was like, maybe if I talk about it on Judge John Hodgman, we could match that. And I said, Jesse, good luck. Because if there's one thing I've learned over the years of interacting with Judge John Hodgman listeners, they're not kind.

They're profoundly selfish skinflints. Yeah, marked by contempt for others. Yeah, yeah, they're takers. You know what I mean? They're takers and mooches. And I guess I was proven wrong. Yeah, we ended up with just about $400,000 in fundraising, which like even now, having said that in out loud probably 20 times at this point, every time I say it out loud, I like have to self-consciously not start crying or something. Right.

because it was absolutely awe-inspiring the generosity. And I'm talking about people who, you know, we had multiple people match my family's donation. We had thousands of people giving what they could, 10, 20, 30, $50. Mm-hmm. Hundreds of people who signed up to give regular gifts to Al-O-Trolato, like,

monthly gifts. And, you know, it happened coincidentally with al-Otrolado losing federal grants that it had used to teach courses on legal rights to migrants. And, you know, I went to Mexico City three, four months ago, and talked to Erica Pinero, who's one of the co-founders. And she said to me, you know, I don't if you know this, but Judge John Hodgman listeners are the reason we didn't have to lay people off this year. Whoa. You know, Al-Othroleto, not a huge

organization. I mean, we're not talking about the United Way here. We're talking about a couple dozen people. And totally amazing. So anyway, that's the context for this is Judge John Hodgman listeners were so incredible and generous.

And we got an email from Al-O-O-Trolado maybe two months ago, three months ago. And they were like, hey, listen, you've never been to see our operations. Would you be willing to come down to Tijuana and visit what we're up to? So we set up a Los Angeles show to pay for our plane flights and took the Amtrak down to Tijuana to visit Al-O-Trolato, or at least the Amtrak down to San Diego and a van over the border. And it was a pretty amazing experience.

Yeah, for those of you who aren't experts on the geography of the southern border between the United States and Mexico, and that includes me as a northeasterner, Tijuana is a city that sits just over the line in Bahama, California, right across the border from San Diego in Southern California to cities

that are profoundly entwined and have been forever across this border. And in fact, our video editor, Daniel Speer, grew up in San Diego, but his family, or some of his family is from Tijuana, and he would go back and forth quite a bit to shop for special seasonal beers.

Yeah, for what Daniel told us, it was primarily so his dad, could buy one particular seasonal beer that he likes. That was only made in Tijuana or whatever. No teoboina is the name of this. And of course, you know, what had once been a chain-link fence between the two nations that people could visit their family without crossing the border through is now two levels of 30-foot-high barred walls.

And on the Mexico side in Tijuana is the headquarters of Al-Otrellado. And Al-Otrulato, as you've gathered, is an organization. It was just founded maybe a little bit more than a decade ago by Erica Piniero and Nicole Ramos, who saw the situation at the border deteriorating. And obviously, it's only gotten worse in terms of detainment of asylum seekers, in terms of deportation, massive amounts of deportation just in the past year. And what even makes it even harder, of course, is the cutting off of the federal grants to a ultralado and organizations like it that was done punitively by the current presidential administration.

There's so much hard stuff that's happening that we're taking in in the news every day that it's sometimes difficult to remember just how disruptive and that has been to the already profoundly disrupted lives of people who are migrating across the border, either as asylum seekers in one direction or deportees in the other direction, and they're not doing it for fun. And Al-Otrulato provides direct legal services to people who are experiencing, you know, migration, who have to leave their homes or move across the border, as well as humanitarian services. And it's all organized out of a small office of very dedicated people, many of whom are deportees themselves in Tijuana.

And it was a real eye-opener and sobering and inspiring and amazing visit for me. And I think for you too, Jesse. It's important to remember the humanity because it's also important to remember that as much blame as there is to go around across many administrations, over the past two years, there has been an active effort to dehumanize people who are in migration. I'm not saying this to be political. It is obviously the policy of the current administration, Stephen Miller, and particular to wage a international and domestic terror campaign. Through such show of force, such violation of the 14th Amendment on the United States

sign, such violation of human dignity in the massive amounts of deportations to Mexico and elsewhere, simply to fit a quota that Stephen Miller made up in his own dumb head, right? That's all designed to terrorize people, to scare them from seeking asylum, trying to seek a better life, trying to get away from the police people in their home country who want to kill them. It's all designed to keep people afraid and to dehumanize them

so that they won't move across the border. But guess what? That's never going to stop. These communities, our world is entwined. And I don't care what you think about what immigration policy should be. Robbing people of human dignity is a sin. I'm not a, I don't believe in God or whatever that much, but I know what a sin is.

And robbing people on purpose of human dignity and the way that current immigration policy enforces is sinful. And what Al-Otrolato is doing is the opposite of sin. It's a blessing. We also ate some really good tacos. That's true. You ate some chapolinas, some cranes. some crunchy grasshoppers or yes

grasshoppers crickets grasshoppers I think they are these I was expecting them so this is a cuisine from wahaka we ate in a Wahakian restaurant it was delicious and I was like I'm gonna eat some of those grasshoppers could I just been talking about them but these and they were delicious

but these were little guys I think they were little crickets on top of the guacamole it was good don't turn your nose up at them they were a little smaller than the ones I've had before I've had like little you know bag of snack ones before and they were little littler than the ones we had before. I mean, this is like...

Oh, and by the way, I forgot to mention that, yeah, on the Mexico side of Friendship Park at the beach there, there's that beautiful statue of dolphins. But in case you are worried... I know where you're driving. There is a... And I posted a photo of this on my own social media, and I'm sure it went over Judge John Hodgman as well. There's an amazing Clamado stand.

For all the joking we've been making about... I guess there must be some Judge John Ojman listeners in Tijuana because they love Clamato there. And if you're at the beach and you're like, what am I going to have as a refreshing beverage? How about a glass of clam juice infused tomato juice? It was delightful. Anyway. I mean, yeah, like at the end of the day, we also had a great time. Like, I can't emphasize enough.

We did some crying for sure. But we had a fantastic time. We were really lucky that Daniel and Dan came with us. I saw so many roof dogs. You know, people talk about the dogs in Tijuana. I did not know the extraordinary proportion of those dogs who are on roofs. That's one of the greatest pleasures in my life is to think about or see roof dogs, even just photographs of roof dogs.

So to get to see this many roof dogs in real life, I think I saw six roof dogs in the two and a half days that we were in Tijuana, including one that was like a decorative roof dog, whatever was. There was one roof that had a statue of a roof dog on it and then an actual roof dog. Yeah. It was great. When I saw that statue of a roof dog, I'm like, someone's playing a joke on Jesse. Yeah, exactly. Somebody's trying to pull the iron roof dog over my eyes.

Yeah, we had a fantastic time. We were going to drop in. We had a conversation with Alotrolato's co-founder who runs their Tijuana programs and their director of U.S. litigation. who is defending folks who are in detainment in the United States constantly all night and day and has been. And they were both

total badasses. We were so excited to get to talk to them. And there will be video of that, but also AJ was nice enough to edit and clean up the audio that we recorded. actually at Friendship Park in Tijuana. So we'll drop that. We're going to drop that conversation into the Judge John Hodgman feed later this month.

So you'll be able to hear that and hear from them a little bit about the stuff that they do because we were really, it was a really special experience to get to be part of. And John, you had basically never been to Mexico. I didn't know that. I basically had never been just one time on the Jonathan Colton cruise and a stop in a different part of Baja, California. called Loretto. It was an amazing, moving, inspiring, overwhelming experience. I'm so grateful to you, Jesse, for suggesting that I come along. I'm grateful to myself for not going like,

nah, it's not convenient for me. But, you know, sometimes you need to go and do and see the hard things or the interesting things and the real things. And I hope that everyone will go check out Alo Trelato and even if you can't get down to the border. which I think is very much worth seeing and experiencing, giving them some of your support and attention, seeing what they're up to. And I also just want to say thank you so much to the listeners again for their incredible generosity. And, you know, that $400,000 is a hugely meaningful amount of money.

And obviously it allowed me to charter a private plane to San Diego. And then when we took the Amtrak train, we bought out the train and turned it into a party train. No, that's not true. I mean, the other beautiful thing about your contributions to Alo Trelato is that it is clearly all being going directly into the work they do. There is no massive overhead organization. It's the real deal. And I'm really grateful to be to you, Jesse, for introducing me to them and to the organization. And, John, I'm also really grateful that we.

We have all these questions about ice cream because I could really use some ice cream talk right now. Yes. Let's move on from ice to ice cream. One of the greatest transitions in podcast history. Yeah. I think we can all agree. How about this? How about this?

How about this? Why doesn't everybody who's listening take a break? Go check out Al-Otrellado. Go think about the people in your lives who are affected by immigration policy because they're out there. remember that that everyone is a human being and deserves human dignity, no matter what they have done in their lives,

no matter where they come from. And when we come back, we're going to answer some disputes about ice cream for summertime. We'll be back in just a second on Judge John Hodgman. Welcome back to the docket on Judge John Hodgman. Okay, John, we're getting into some ice cream here. Ice cream. It's all...

You know what ice cream for? Ice milk. Did you ever ever have ever... ice milk. Yeah, I've had ice milk. There used to be a malt cup. You could buy it to ballgame. Do you know a malt cup? I do not know. Like a little chocolate tub, a small chocolate tub of malted chocolate ice milk. And this was something I would go to the ball game. I would go to the ball game as a teenager like by myself. I'm talking about the 13, 14 year old. Take the bus to the ball game, take the regular bus by $1.75 bleacher ticket because there was like kids tickets

that you could buy that were supposed to encourage adults to buy tickets to bring the kids. In my family, it meant I was going by myself or with my friend Adam. And a malt cup was $1.75. That was the thing, a malt cup or red rope. Those were the two concessions items I could afford to buy. Mm-hmm. Big ice milk item. So a malt cup was ice milk.

Yeah, it was ice milk. It was not ice cream. I just remember seeing that in Peter Rosenmeyer's, my next door neighbor's freezer, ice milk, which was, I guess now they call it light ice cream or low-fat ice cream, but it's just, you know, it's ice cream made with skim milk, I guess. You have to have a certain amount of fat in ice cream to legally call it ice cream. It's why I like all these things instead of being called ice cream bars are called quiescently frozen confections. All right, this is from Michael in London.

I don't know if there's London, England, London, Ontario. London, Connecticut. Who knows? Every time my dad makes a restaurant booking, he says it is for a birthday, regardless of the actual occasion. He does this for the free dessert. When the server brings out ice cream with a candle in it, no one at the table is willing to claim it.

I no longer want to even witness this. Please stop him from making birthday bookings unless it is actually someone's birthday. Wow. No one at the table wants... He doesn't even, the dad, the weird dad doesn't even want to eat his scam, scammy ice cream. Spears microphone is off. I want to make it clear that his microphone is off. If you are hearing Daniel Spears contemptuous cackles,

yeah, it's because he simply cannot control himself. You're hearing it from 15 feet away from me through my mic. I don't know if this is London, UK or what, but I was reminded that when I took a semester off of college, to go and live and work in London on a drink abroad program that I had personally devised for myself. The rumor around London town was don't eat the ice cream

because it's not dairy, it's made from lard. Because of World War II era rationing, there was a tradition of making ice cream out of vegetable oil and lard because dairy was hard to come by. And I've since learned that that's a myth, I think. If you're a UK listener or have ever lived there or know anything about the lardy ice cream of London town, I hope you'll let me know Hodgman at maximum fund.org if it's real or not. Because the truth was, I was like, this is not a bug.

This is a feature. Like, I want to have some of that lardy ice cream. I think probably they should bring it back. So I don't know if Michael's dad was getting lard ice cream or not. But I think that it is, it is, well, I don't know, Jesse. How do you feel about lard ice cream? I feel great about it. It sounds awesome to me.

It sounds awesome. But I was going to say about birthday celebrations and restaurants. No, this is fraud. This is, you're taking advantage of this restaurant and you're going to ruin it for all the rest of us. Put in a special occasion if it actually is a special occasion. occasion and maybe they'll just do something nice for you, like who wish you happy birthday or something. Maybe they'll bring you ice cream, but only if it's your actual birthday. Otherwise, you are lying and tricking. Yeah, you know when you're lying and tricking, even in London, UK,

even in London, Ontario, even in New London, wherever you are. You know what lying and tricking is. I mean, obviously Michael's dad does too, because apparently he's not even eating his free ice cream that he conned the restaurant out of. I mean, here's the thing. Most people who go into restaurants with a combative attitude are miserable human beings. Yeah, just eat at home. Don't be a jerk. Eat at home.

Like, I got to get the most for my money. I'm going to under-tip to punish them for making me overpay. And I'm not satisfied with this serving or whatever. it's like you're going in so that humans will cook for you. And if it's, and if it's not to your liking, fine, whatever,

don't go back. But it's not, it's not a game to play. You know, it's a, what a restaurant is doing is a business, obviously, but it's a fairly low margin

and difficult business to be in. First of all. And second of all, at least independent restaurants, people are opening that out of a, out of love for food and a spirit of generosity. Successful independent restaurants anyway. You can make an argument.

It's like, oh, it's a huge chain, so I'm just going to reach over the counter at Chipotle and grab a handful of guacamole for myself. I've paid for it or whatever. But even then, you know, these are humans who are cooking for you. And I think that you have to approach it with a sense of like, you know, I'm the customer, but I'm also a guest. And if you're a guest, you're not there to

swindle your host. Insulting generosity is a very soul-damaging thing to do. And I think if you're the dad who's lying on the reservation to say that it's a birthday to get some free ice cream out of it, you deserve the approprium of your child, Michael, and everyone else around the table. No happy birthdays for you for the next 10 years. That's my ruling. I hope you have bad birthdays, Michael's dad.

Here's something from Sean and San Diego. When I finish an ice cream sandwich, I do what I believe most people do. At home, I use my teeth to scrape off the bit of chocolate cookie, quote unquote, bread that has stuck to my fingers. My wife, Catherine, does something I've never seen. She uses the wrapper of the ice cream sandwich to protect her fingers. She's denying herself joy by not getting the bread on her fingers. Please stop her. I guess he's saying bread because it's a sandwich.

Yeah, so I'm having flashbacks to the cafeteria at Brookline High School where we would get these sort of classic good humor junky ice cream bars, excuse me, ice cream sandwiches. And it's just, you know, a thin layer of vanilla ice cream sandwiched between, I guess what you would call chocolate cookies. Like this is not an it's it, Jesse. This is like a very specific, when you would eat these ice cream sandwiches, your fingers would look like they were covered with chocolate dirt after. Yeah, they're soft and vaguely pasty. Yeah. Yeah. And I have a nostalgic, non-toxic nostalgic fondness for them.

And I'll have one from time to time. And you know what else? They're also, that category contains one of the best, uh, vegan alternatives that I've ever had in the world of vegan alternatives, the Tofutti Qutie. Tofutti cuties are pretty good. That's right. I wouldn't want to eat tofuiti. If you just serve me tofu-foodi, I wouldn't love that.

I would prefer a regular ice cream. But is Tofutti cutie? That kind of delivers. If it's not a cutie, it's not for Udi. That's what you've always said. That's what I've always said. About yourself and the second person. I got that tattooed on my lower back.

There you go. I guess I remember getting this residue of chocolate dirt on my fingers eating these old-timey ice cream sandwiches. I do not remember ever scraping the chocolate off my fingers with my teeth. I guess in the classic Vafungul Sopranos thing, like, if you're watching on the YouTube, you can see me doing this. Yeah. Because it's gross enough without chocolate dirt on my fingers, what I just did. Now I feel like I got to rinse my mouth out with Purell. I don't know.

Did you ever eat chocolate? Is this a thing that Sean is correct, that what most people do at home is that they suck chocolate dirt off their fingers? I've done it. I'm not above saying that I've done it. But I don't choose to do it. And I don't consider it one of the joys of consume. Look, there's no question, John, that you and I have roles on this program. they're well earned.

We share many cultural characteristics, many personality traits. We're great friends of many years. But you are neater and cleaner than I am. And that's revealed itself many times on the show. And you would think that I would be, out of the two of us, the guy who would say, yes, I love to scrape the chocolate dirt off my finger, just as I was once the guy to say that it's okay for dogs to lick plates before they go in the dishwasher and then everybody got mad. I can't believe you just said it again.

I know. But in this case, I generally avoid it. I generally use the paper, although I do lick it off if it does accidentally get on my fingers. You know, one thing that came up when we were visiting Tijuana was I did not realize, Jesse, until he came up in conversation, that people have been given you guff for suggesting it's cool to let your dog lick the plate before you put it in the dish washer. For years, people were. I didn't realize that this hit was an issue. For years. Like, this was a case from years ago when a guy was a man and a woman in a marriage and he would let the dog lick the plates before he put in the dishwasher. And you said it was fine. And I remember, I said it was fine too. Yeah. And whether or not I'm

a cleaner person than you are, Jesse, I will say, I stand with you on this. Let your dogs lick the plates. It's cool. That's cool. Don't worry about it. Your dishwomeness We'll get them plenty clean. Dogs are animals that live inside our house. If you've accepted that, you're just going to have to deal with the fact they've got dirty feet. They're going to lick the inside of your nose sometimes. Sometimes you're going to accidentally French kiss them because you're laughing when

they lick your face. That's right. That's right. Like these things are all just going to happen. You just have to deal with it. You have to brush them a lot or else they'll be fur all over your furniture. It's just the reality of having a best friend, and it's worth it. And I will say this.

I do not think that it is gross for Sean to scrape the chocolate dirt off his fingers after eating an ice cream sandwich. I hope it's just chocolate dirt and not just finger dirt. You know what I mean? But it's whatever. It's his body. It's his choice. It's his ice cream sandwich. Okay.

Tofutti cutie question, John. Yeah. I can't eat dairy. When I find a dairy-free ice cream I like, I want to savor it on my own timeline. But my kids and my husband scarf it down even after they've finished their own creamy lactosey pint. Please order them to leave my fake ice cream alone. Okay, so this is the difference, right? One of these two cases, Michelle and Toronto versus Sean and San Diego.

One of these cases is a true crime. crime against one's own family. If Sean likes to scrape dirt off, chocolate dirt off his fingers, and his wife, Catherine, doesn't. No, there's no standing to bring your case to my court. You're not being hurt by Catherine's preference here. But in Michelle's case,

her family, her husband and kids, are stealing from her. Just like that dad in London is stealing from the restaurant. And I have a question, Jesse, do you have anyone in your family who mooches your food, steals your food out of the fridge? I mean, I think when I have ice cream in the freezer, because I'm the number one ice cream enthusiast in my family, I always imagine it to belong to me. And then it just disappears. But the main thing is, like, sometimes I will have candy. Yeah.

I mean, it's going to be either giant, chewy nerds. or nerds gummy clusters. And I will just come into the kitchen to eat some of it and notice that just one of my children found it and cleaned it out. They will just straight up clean it out. And that does get to me a little bit. But the reality is, yeah, I mean, I have some experience with this with ice cream. I can't eat the chocolatey ice cream.

So I have to get a special not chocolatey ice cream. But the truth of the matter is you have to get some. something grosser. You have to get a grosser alternative. The only solution here is you have to switch from lactose-free real ice cream to some weird vegan thing that's made out of vegan lard, just a vegetable oil-based monstrosity, and make yourself used to it. It's carib-flavored or whatever. Make yourself used to it, but it's so gross that your other family members won't turn to it after they eat their own good ice cream, they'll just get more good ice cream. I was going to say, I was going to say, if Michelle is merely like lactose intolerant, right,

just can't eat dairy, but is not herself a vegan, she should consider getting chapolinas ice cream, which I don't know if it exists, but I think probably it ought to, ice cream with the fried crickets or grasshoppers mixed in. Yeah, I feel like there's got to be. There's got to be one of these, one of these fancy ice cream places in L.A.'s got to serve chopolinous ice cream. Jesse, I'm just getting this from Jennifer Marmer. You are, in fact, right. Salt and Straw, which I, is a upscale ice cream spot. Yeah, not even in Los.

I mean, there's some outlets here in Los Angeles, but I think they come from Portland, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, they offer a Halloween-themed flavor, creepy crawly critters. sweet green macha ice cream with Don Bugito's munchy crunchy chocolate crickets and toffee brittle mealworms. I don't know if these are real crickets and real mealworms or imitations, but they got the idea. Get some chapolinas in that ice cream. Maybe, maybe your teenagers and your husband will leave them alone.

Or maybe not, because here's the thing. The grasshoppers also have a message for us. Over on Iplurbis motto, this is a little preview coming down your, podcast pipe. It's going to be an episode on Nebraska, where we talk about the, you know, the nickname for Nebraska's is corn huskers, but they used to be called bug eaters because in the 19th century, there was a massive Midwestern plague of grasshoppers. Clouds of grasshoppers would blot out the sun for up to six hours as they devoured crops, personal stores. You know, they would get into your basement and eat all of your your root cellar.

They'd eat your, they'd eat the hand, the, the, the, the, the, the leather straps off of your farm tools because they were soaked through with the salt from your sweat. Um, it was just a, a profound, a profound scourge. And the thing is, grasshoppers don't stop eating and neither do kids. I bet if even if you put a grasshoppers in that ice cream, your kids, especially if they're teenagers and your husband. probably find a way to justify like, it's time for me to eat that. I don't know why teens and husbands need to steal food all the time.

But it, and, and, you know, you might, you might, you might, you might fend them off for a brief time, filling up your ice cream with bugs or whatever, but you don't deserve that. Michelle, you get to deserve, you get to deserve the, the non-dairy ice cream that you want. And, you tell them right now that every time they take a bite of your ice cream, I cancel their birthdays for three years. One bite, three years, no birthday. Ice cream, ice cream cake, nothing, no birthday celebration for your family, Michelle. Toronto, let Michelle enjoy her non-dairy ice cream.

Here's a case from Caitlin in Linfield, Massachusetts, and John, I'm going to be leaning on you for translations here. Yeah. I live in Massachusetts where our regional ice cream treat. the, and this is called a frapp, right? Not a frape. Yeah. Yeah, you may have seen me getting into it on Reddit a few months ago, but people were trying to deny the existence of fraps saying, oh, no, those are frappes.

No, they're fraps. There is a frappe that is made popular by Starbucks, and it's a kind of a layered drink of Italian origin, I believe. But in New England, we have what's called a frap, F-R-A-P-E. Go ahead, Jesse. For the past 45 years, John, I've been on a no frat thing. Okay. Our regional ice cream treat, the frap, is known elsewhere as a milkshake.

It contains ice cream, milk, and flavored syrup. We also have milkshakes. Here, milkshakes contain no ice cream, only syrup and milk blended together. Whenever I order one, the employee patronizingly asks, You do know this won't have ice cream, right? I would like the employees of Jordan's furniture in Redding to stop shake-shaming. Massachusetts milkshakes are delicious and shouldn't be overshadowed by their thick cousin, the Frap. Well, first of all, John.

Yeah, first of all, Jesse. What? It is not entirely foreign to me that a milkshake is a combination of ice cream syrup and milk. But generally speaking here in California, I think a milkshake would be just ice cream and milk. And if it was flavored, it would be a flavored ice cream with milk. Just ice cream with milk would be a milkshake. Yeah. Like a chocolate milkshake would be chocolate ice cream and milk. Yeah. Not vanilla ice cream, milk, and chocolate flavoring. Yeah, there's a lot to unpack here. So let's let's open up this suitcase of ice cream.

cream debate and start unpacking it and putting it away in our drawers, which is what we call drawers in New England. Got it. Yeah. So a frap was something that I knew growing up in Brookline, Massachusetts. If you had said, however, and this goes back now to, you know, I was a child of the 70s and 80s, I don't ever remember. It was synonymous with a milkshake.

Frap and milkshake. Everyone knows what a milkshake is and it's ice cream and milk. And maybe there's some flavoring in it. Maybe there isn't. And then you would also call it a frap. Now, that was my experience. And please don't at me and try to deny my lived experience. Only later as an adult when I was, you know, researching columns for my food and non-wine alcohol column in Men's Journal magazine,

the most prominent American magazine about men keeping scrapbooks. Did I ever learn this thing about how, uh, milkshakes in New England didn't have ice cream in them. They were just, what did she say it was? Syrup and milk blended together. I believe that it's true. It was not a part of my regional Boston experience. So I'm not denying Caitlin's in Linfield's experience either.

I'm just saying it never was a huge division. And absolutely, Caitlin, I agree with you. Like, you know, if you know what you're ordering, you don't have to be shamed by. by the server. The other thing that unpack here is that they're serving ice cream in a furniture store. This I did not understand. Even I did not understand.

Yeah, I was about to say, in Boston, do furniture store? I mean, I've heard of a drug store selling ice cream. I know what she's talking about when she's talking about Jordan's furniture. Jordan's furniture is a regional furniture store that had two brothers, Barry and Elliot

Tatelbaum, who did all of the ads for Jordan's furniture. They had beautiful Boston accents, and they would constantly be telling you, it's time to get a new chest of draws, you deserve a good night's sleep, and they were fixtures on the television scene.

But I had never been into a Jordan's before in my life. By the way, as Barry and Elliot would always say, it's Jordan's furniture. Not to be confused with Jordan Marsh, which is Boston's oldest department store. And that's my terrible Boston accent. I can't, I can't ever do it. I'm just, I'm just someone who's alienated from his own

authenticity. I'm sorry. So, but even so, I did not know that they sold ice cream. But I, so I did a little research. And Jordan's furniture got much bigger than I ever understood it. It started back in 1928 by the Barry and Elliott's dad, Samuel Tatelebaum. its original store was in Waltham. Then they built a store in Nashua and in Avon, Massachusetts. And when they opened that store in Avon, Massachusetts in 1987, according to the internet here, it says it created the largest traffic jam ever recorded on Route 24.

Barry and Elliott had to go on the radio to beg people not to come because people were so excited to get into Jordans. And then they got bigger and bigger. And they, not only did they start including lunch counters and restaurants in the various stores, now I believe they're licensed restaurants. So I think there's an Italian sort of pizza counter at one. And then another one, there's a full-service fud ruckers, which is a chain of hamburger stores. I don't know if you ever had fud ruckers in your life, Jesse.

We didn't have fud ruckers in the Bay Area when I was a kid. But my old co-host, Gene O'Neill was a big fudruckers guy from Los Angeles. They also would display in one of their locations a thing called Bean Town, which was a giant miniature reconstruction of the entire city of Boston made out of jelly beans. Okay. But then in a number of them, including one in New Haven that I used to drive by all the time, I had forgotten. The Jordan's furniture stores also would include a complete ropes course for kids. You know what I mean by a ropes course?

like rope climbing, swinging, like zip lines. Oh, wow. These are super centers of bargains, basically. And so I guess, yes, Jordan's did or does still, I don't know, serve fraps and milkshakes in the same store where they sell cabinets, not to be confused with the Rhode Island cabinet, which is a coffee milkshake in Rhode Island, called a cabinet for reasons that are disputed.

So I have heard many things. One, they kept the coffee, the coffee syrup, the famous coffee syrup, the most famous brand of Rhode Island coffee syrup is called Autocrat. They kept the coffee syrup in the drugs. I don't know why. Rhode Island sounds great. Yeah. Yeah. They like their coffee milk with an authoritarian flavor.

Is that where Ted Leo lives or does he live in New Hampshire? Rhode Island. He's a Rhode Island. Is Ted Leo out there ordering cabinets with Autocrat? Yeah. I like my cabinet with Autocrat, please. So one of the stories is that the coffee syrup would be kept in a cabinet in the, like, drugstore or wherever you would get it.

And then someone else mentioned to me, and it could be true. I don't know, is that that's a New England accent for carbonate. So you used to go to the drugstore to get a carbonate of soda, which was how you would order a Coca-Cola at the time. And that eventually became Cobbnet, Cobbnet. and then that became a coffee milkshake. So there's a lot going on. You know, New England is historically one of the most ice cream-hungry places on earth.

There's a lot of ice cream that is eaten in New England in a lot of different areas. And there are fraps and there are milkshakes and there are cabinets and then there are cabinets. And here, by the way, are Barry and Elliott in 1986. If you want to go on, if you, this is some non-toxic nostalgia for me. me to listen to these guys Boston accents. It's so wonderful. I'm just going to share it with you here. You need to buy a bedroom set, but so many of them look alike at all different prices. What do you do? At Jordan's Furniture, don't even worry. We won't carry those cheap sets that fall apart. All those sets are overpriced you're just paying for a name.

Here at Jordan's Furniture, you'll find the best bedrooms at underprices every day. You'll see a difference. You'll feel a difference. Just open a draw, and you can tell immediately. Just open a draw. Just open a draw. I think Caitlin may need to reframe. These employees are not saying this. I don't think Jordan's furniture does framing, actually. I think it's just bedroom sets and living room sets and dining room sets.

I don't think these employees are shaming her. I think these employees are protecting themselves from people who do not know that at this particular furniture store, when you order a milkshake, you don't get ice cream. I would imagine these probably minimum wage plus tips employees are, I have experienced many times someone ordering a milkshake because they're from, there's a big city guy from Boston like John Hodgman. Yeah. Where a milkshake means a milkshake and a frat means a milkshake. Right. Not where a milkshake means a weird thing that it only means in furniture stores.

Yeah. Hey, you're going exactly where I was headed, Jesse. It's like, Caitlin, you do know the difference, but don't get mad if your server doesn't automatically presume, you know, the difference because they, as exactly right, Jesse, they're protecting themselves, and they know that people might be cranky because they've been waiting for hours to get into the furniture store, like, 24 or whatever, and they're protecting themselves, and they're protecting the customer, too. They're just trying to inform. And here's the thing that a lot of people don't understand. And particularly in Metro Boston, throughout New England, but really it's an eastern Massachusetts thing, where courtesy usually sounds like aggression.

Courtesy often sounds like an attack. But what it really is is courtesy. And you can tell because they'll often say hun at the end of it, or Dia. And that's for real. So it's okay, Caitlin. I apologize. I'm sorry that you went through that experience. but go enjoy your fratier.

Speaking of those thick fraps, and of course, concretes, don't forget about concretes. I don't know what that is. We've got a thick episode, so we're going to take another break and we'll come back with a couple more ice cream cases.

Sounds good. Judge Hodgman, tomorrow we are in Brookline, Massachusetts. As of the release of this episode, you can get your tickets at bit. At bit.ly slash nightcourt Brookline. capital letters or just go to maximum fund.org slash events. Thursday, June

11th is that show. I'm really excited about that show. I'm really looking forward. Now, I've heard of Brookline, Massachusetts, yeah, because I grew up there. And we're doing the show at the Coolidge Corner theater. With our friend Eugene Merman. Right there in Coolidge Corner.

Eugene Merman's dropping by. It's absolutely correct. And this is the theater where I worked summers when I was in high school and then in college. It is a truly wonderful, informative place. It's a great place to see a movie and an even better place to see Jesse Thorne and I adjudicating disputes in a wildly rollicking docket style, our new show called Nightcourt with special guest Eugene Merman. It's one night only, and then who knows

when we'll be doing it again, because then we'll be driving up to Maine to sail aboard the Grace Bailey for four nights with some of you very fun and game and adventurous listeners. And Who knows if we'll ever come back from C? I just don't know. We might just live out there forever. So if you haven't had a chance to see us in a while, please come and see us in Brookline. It's going to be a great show. And you might not get to see us for another while.

So please go get your tickets now. Bit.ly slash nightcourt Brookline or maximum fun.org slash events. There are probably a few last minute tickets left. And we hope to see you there because it's better when you are. Jesse, what's going on in your world? I want to throw something out there. Yeah. We've been doing some serious touring the last few years.

Yeah, it's true. We visited Portland, Oregon, in Seattle, Washington, St. Paul, Minnesota, Madison, Wisconsin, Washington, D.C., all these wonderful big cities, large towns. Big cities and large towns. Where we know that there's lots of Judge John Hodgman listeners and lots of venues and so on and so forth. We got this new show, Judge John Hodgman, Nightcourt. Yeah. We can put this thing in a backpack and bring it anywhere. That's true.

That's true. You got a big money gig for us? Drop us the line at Hodgman and Maximum Fund.org. We might be able to come. We're open now to the possibility of a weekend destination show. So drop us a line at Hodgmanandandmaximumfund.org. if you're a promoter and you're somewhere cool that we haven't been before and you're always like, how come they never come here?

Well, maybe it's tour routing or something like that. But you got a line on bringing us and drop us a line. Maybe we can make it happen. Yeah, we can put it in our backpack. We can come right to where you are, meet you where you are, and dispense some justice with night court. I mean, look, if we can go on a historic two-masted schooner for four nights in Maine, you know we can come to your performance.

Art Center in Walla Walla, Washington. And of course, June is all about dads and grad, so hit up to Put This On Shop, get your dad or your grad or the dad or grad in your life or somebody else. Something beautiful at Put This Onshop.com. Okay, let's get back to the show. Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Okay, here is another ice cream case for you, John, from Beth in San Francisco, God's country, John.

San Francisco. When we buy ice cream for the house at Mitchell's ice cream around the corner from Jesse's dad's old apartment, my husband Dan insists on getting what I consider a lesser flavor, like a plain vanilla or something fruity. He argues that since I like all desserts and he only likes some flavors, we should get what he likes because I'll end up eating it regardless. For the record, he's correct. I will. But sometimes, but sometimes I want something else. Now, the obvious solution would be to get multiple flavors,

but we are renters with a very small freezer. I would like to judge to order that moving forward, we take turns picking an ice cream flavor with me choosing the next 10 flavors as past damages. Well, you know, Beth is wandering into hostile territory. with me or Judge John Hodgman, because I, like our good friend, Nick Weiger of the doughboys, not only love vanilla ice cream, but contend factually and indisputably that vanilla is a flavor. It is not plain.

It is not plain vanilla. Vanilla has a beautiful, rich flavor that is prized across centuries. It is a, it is the, it is the, the vanilla bean is actually. the seed pod of the vanilla orchid. It is a rare and valuable substance that brings a very specific and very beautiful flavor to everything that it is added to, including ice cream.

So I will not take this vanilla shaming. And if you remember, we talked to Nick Weiger about this way back in 2021. And the other thing is that we should mention is that, you know, not only is it a product of the rare vanilla orchid. But as Nick pointed out, it is to this day, the flowers are hand-pollinated.

You would not have a vanilla trade if it were not for Edmund Albius, who as an enslaved 12-year-old on the French occupied island of Reunion in the Indian Ocean developed a method to quickly pollinate the vanilla orchid using a thin stick or blade of grass. it is still the method that is used today, of course, had been albius being an enslaved person who eventually gained freedom, you know, traumatized by that for the rest of his life and died in poverty in 1880. And, you know, but they did knock five years off of his jail sentence for robbery because he invented the hand pollination method for vanilla.

So please, please don't disparage vanilla, Beth. But that said. John, I'm a fancy ice cream flavor enthusiast. Yeah. But you know what I think might be my number one favorite ice cream? No, don't know how I love, I love Innsit, I love Tillamook grocery store ice cream. Yeah. I think my number one favorite ice cream is Kirkland Signature brand vanilla ice cream.

Wow. That's an ultra-price. The doughboys, wow. That's some Costco. stuff, right? That's some Costco stuff. That's an ultra-premium ice cream. I never thought I would have this relationship with vanilla ice cream as a complicated ice cream enthusiast. I would try it, but I'm not a member. You're not a member. Well, maybe on our way from Boston to Maine, we can stop at Costco to buy ice cream. There's one Costco in Maine. That's why I'm not a member. There's only one and it's hours away.

and then there's one here in Brooklyn, but it's over an industry city. It's just not convenient. It's like going, it's like you get into a traffic jam. It's like going to Jordan's furniture. You're trying to get to Costco. So busy anyway. But both of your tastes are equal.

And the thing that I'm hung up on is like you live in a house. You mention that you rent. And then somehow you have a freezer that can't contain two containers of ice cream at a single time. This seems like you have some freezer organizational problems or you haven't defrosted the de-freezer in 35 years or something. And there's only like an inch of space in there. Yeah. The reality is you've got to deal with this situation.

There's no other. There's no shortcut answer to this question. Your plan, Beth, is to punish your husband that is not a workable plan. The only workable plan here that accommodates your flavor needs. and I respect your flavor needs. Yeah. But the only workable plan that accommodates everyone in the house is multiple ice cream flavors.

You're just going to have to figure it out. Look, think about what your priorities are, right? Right. Sure. Do you need ice cubes? Probably. Maybe that's your number one priority. I don't know how cold do you like your beverage is.

Right. Number two priority for any freezer has to be ice cream. Yeah. Sorry, leftover stew is good and important, but you need to prioritize ice cream. There's something in that freezer that is just, I guarantee you, that has been taking up space for months, if not years. Whether, as Jesse said, it's a leftover stew or a big bag of chicken bones that you're waiting to turn into a stock. or maybe it's Karen's last Zidi. That's a soprano's reference.

I'm doing a soprano's rewatch. It sounded like a children's book. Yeah. And you don't want to eat it because it was the last one Karen made before she passed away. It's time to get over whatever it is. It's holding you back and either eat that stew, eat that Ziti, make that stock or throw something away so that you can get two flavors of ice cream in there. Uh, it's, that's my order. You got to do it or no birthday. All right. One last question, John. Yeah. Both Matt in Holliston, Massachusetts, and Laura in

Culver City, California sent in cases about butter pecan ice cream or butter pecan ice cream, whatever you prefer. Yeah. Both Matt and Laura's families say that the butter pecan is an old people ice cream flavor. But Matt and Laura separately agree. that butter pecan is a good flavor for any age. Judge Hodgman is butter pecan just for old people. You know what I say about butter pecan? What do you say, John, about butter pecan? I pecan't even. And butter pecan is not only gross to me because it's got nuts in it and that's not my thing, but also I'm presuming has some kind of buttercotch in it. And that is not only not my thing, but that is definitely

what we would call at the risk of sounding profoundly agist old people stuff. That is an old, that is a very old timey, shall I say, without making comment on the people who enjoy it in their relative ages, that is a very, like, Rocky Road.

That is an old time. Yeah, but Butterbricon, even more than Rocky Road. I think Butterbacon is the pathiosis of an old person, ice cream. Just because it's an old people flavor doesn't mean it's not for young people. Yes, I agree. I agree. Old people is perhaps too pejorative the term. And indeed. No, I think it's appropriate. I'm sticking with old people's flavor. Oh, okay. Okay. I believe in it. I believe in it. I like it. It's appropriate in this context. This is a retirement home-ass flavor.

Yeah, right. Fair. However. However. How, however. just because it's an old people flavor doesn't mean a young person can enjoy it. I wear a broad variety of old people sweaters and I love it. Yeah. I absolutely agree. And, you know, one of the consolations of getting older and indeed, as of this recording, I have just turned 55, is not given a rocky road about what anyone thinks. about the ice cream you're eating or whatever it is you're doing.

You know, one of the, one of the purposes of life is to tune in to what makes you truly happy. And once, and that's not easy to do because as you're growing up, there are a lot of people are trying to foist a lot of priorities on you about saying what you should do, what you should value, what you should like, what you should, how you should spend your time, what kind of ice cream you should eat, whatever it is. And, you know, depending on your life, you might buckle under to some of those choices that are made for you. But by the time you start to get a little bit older, particularly if your children are grown and you're alone in the house, and if you're lucky, you're with a partner that you love very much

as a whole human being in their own right, and you realize it's not our job to feed or nurture another human being anymore. What do you want to have for dinner? Popcorn and gin? Terrific. You just, you just, you just, do you just do what you want, you eat what you want. And in that regard, butter pecan as an old person flavor, all old person flavors are good. You should give it a try. So I'm ruling that

this is an old person flavor, but I am removing all pejorative aspect from it to say these are flavors that are enjoyed by people who like what they like unapologetically. And so should you, happy birthday. The docket is clear. John, we just did a full ice cream episode. Yeah. But it's going to be summer for a few more months, so we need summer disputes. Let's get some sweaty disputes in here.

Tell me your pool party disputes. Is it summertime fun or a swimsuit nightmare? Camping crashouts. How do you get your kids to go camping? Or how do you get your husband to? buy a tent that doesn't weigh 70 pounds, like that incredible tent, that dude had in Utah. There's some June left. It's Pride Month. What problems are you encountering with pride? Any hookup drama, any after-party trouble? What do you do when someone copies your outfit at a pride

celebration? No summertime case is too small. No summertime cases to medium. Send them all on all of your shadiest reads and hottest takes to maximum fund.org or go ahead and email me directly, Hodgman at maximum fund.org. John, I just interviewed a band for Bulls I called American Football. These guys are a very amazing story. These guys are like, two of them were college roommates and a friend, a college housemates and a friend.

And they had this sort of band that was basically just a, a project that they were doing together, just like a thing they were doing together. And just playing complicated emo music in their proto-emo music. And they made a record when they graduated from college, but they never even toured it. You know, it was just like they had some friends

that had recording equipment. They recorded it. And like 10 or 12 years later, they realized that they were famous with emo kids. So anyway, these guys became like weekend rock stars. Like playing, you know, 50,000 seat stadiums in Brazil or whatever. Yeah. And a real nice dudes.

And one of the guys is a Judge John Hodgman listener. His name is Steve. He plays guitar. Nice. And Steve, you're doing some summer touring. What's your summer beef with your bandmates in American football? Yeah, Steve. Anybody who's hitting the road for the,

the summer. Whether you're renting an RV, you're hopping in a van with your punk rock friends, what's the bebes? Give them to us at maximumfund.org slash JJHO. There's just a little form to fill out. Maximumfund.org slash J.J.H.O. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hoddman podcast. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network of artists-owned shows. Supported directly by you.