Judge John Hodgman - Kitchen Loco Parentis

Episode Date: December 24, 2013

Should a toddler be let loose in a kitchen?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, kitchen loco parentis. Pablo brings the case against his wife, Deanna. They allow their two-year-old daughter, Motti, to help out in the kitchen by mixing, pouring, and preparing food. But they can't agree on how much responsibility is too much. Should a toddler be let loose in a kitchen? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. All that Syrio Forel had taught her went racing through her head, swift as a deer, quiet as a shadow, fear cuts deeper than swords. Quick as a snake, calm as still water, fear cuts deeper than swords. Strong as a bear, fierce as a wolverine, Fear cuts deeper than swords. Strong as a bear. Fierce as a wolverine. Fear cuts deeper than swords. That man who fears losing has already lost. Fear cuts deeper than swords. Fear cuts deeper than swords. Fear cuts deeper than swords. Bailiff Jesse, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands. You swear to tell the truth, the whole truth in nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? Yes. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he lives in a box and doesn't eat, rather getting his nutrients from the air? Yes.

Yes. Very well, Judge Hodgman. Please do not mock my lifestyle as a box arian it is making me very slender and my bones very brittle pablo and diana you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in your favor. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom? Pablo? No. No.

No. Now, we reach you in Bogota, Colombia. Is that correct? Yes. And am I pronouncing that correctly? You pronounced it pretty well. It's surprising. Yes. Thank you.

You're De Nada. And do you receive the television program Game of Thrones in Bogota? Yes, but yeah, yeah. But we haven't really started watching it.

We're saving it for when Matty turns five, I guess. That would be appropriate. That is actually that is actually not from the TV show Game of Thrones, but from the original text of George R.R. Martin's book, A Game of Thrones, or Un Juego de Tronos, as you might say in Bogota, maybe.

Oh, yeah, yeah, you can get the books. Okay, well, why don't you get them and read them? And then you will know that I was quoting from a Game of Thrones from one of Arya's point of view chapters when she's remembering the training that was given to her by Syrio Forel in swordsmanship, or in this case, swordswomanship, or in this case, swords little girl ship. case swords woman ship or in this case swords little girl ship because aria is but a child when she learns sorting which is the proper term for fencing and this case revolves around whether or not you are going to arm your daughter with knife weapon uh how old is your daughter, Pablo? She's two. And her name is Marti. Two years and three months. And that is a distinction that you are making, Diana, because you want to give her knives as soon as possible.

But Pablo, you're bringing in the case, so I'm going to let you have first say. Now, your daughter's name is Marti or Marti? No, her actual name is Matilde. We just call her Mati. Mati, excuse me. Matilde Mati. Beautiful name. Have you seen the Broadway production of Matilda on Broadway?

Has that come to Bogota? Not yet. All right. I'm going to be in the touring production of that. I'm going to be in the Spanish language touring production of Matilde as the trenchable. But meanwhile, I'm your judge. Oh, also. You have the pronunciation skills. Phonetically.

I learned Spanish phonetically. I don't know what I'm saying. I'm like a trained monkey when it comes to languages, I'm afraid. But you also, you guys speak, obviously, perfect English. You say you spent some

time in Massachusetts, the Commonwealth of my birth. Is that correct? Yes. We lived there for four years. In Worcester, Massachusetts. In Worcester. I'm so sorry to hear that. Why? Of all the towns and cities in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, were you working for Polar Soda? Are you big Mike Birbiglia fans? And you were there on a pilgrimage? You were looking for the last bottle of Moxie.

You were looking for the last bottle of Moxie? Oh, yeah. Look, guys, I don't mind buzz marketing Moxie on my podcast anymore. That company sent me gallons of Moxie last time I said something about it, plus about 1,000 Moxie tattoos and a tin-type plate of the Moxie guy replacing the accusatory Moxie man who points his finger, replacing his face with my face. So listen, Moxie, seriously. I'm sorry about this, guys.

Justice must wait for commerce as usual. Listen, dudes, if you want to sponsor this podcast, we're ready to go. I am already giving you this work for free. The first taste is for free. I think that that may be the motto of Moxie, actually. The first taste is for free. The second taste we pay you to have. But seriously, if you'd like to sponsor the show, I'm ready to go.

And also in terms of commerce, the Ragnarok survival kit featuring the survival mayonnaise, the urine flask, the complete extended DVD of John Hodgman Ragnarok and all sorts of other good, oh, and the non-ironic unisex cologne sperm whale by John Hodgman is available at bit.ly slash survive Ragnarok. But back to your daughter, because this is a non-commercial broadcast. So Mati is two. Matilda is two. And Pablo, what is the problem? Your wife wants to give her sabers and swords? Yeah, basically.

I mean, she wants to. We like to cook with Mati, especially my wife. And she wants to give her knives to cut things. And I think she's too young for it. Diana, why are you giving a two-year-old knives? How many knives at a time are you giving her? Like double katanas? Just, you know, a simple table knife

that doesn't even count, like a knife for me. Oh, a table knife. And she's cutting, a knife knife for me oh a table and she's cutting i don't know cooked broccoli and and mushrooms diana do you do you cook for the most part in the house yes all right first of all if you if you are if you are able to cut broccoli with a with a dull table knife you're overcooking your broccoli so just word to the wise maybe if you're cooking Maybe if you're cooking, maybe if you're cooking a broccoli for a baby, for a two-year-old daughter,

maybe you can serve her that kind of mushy broccoli that she can cut with a dull knife. And so you guys, you cook together, you and Mati, does Pablo do any of the cooking or does he just sit around and question your motives? I help

sometimes. It's just that sometimes they cook at night and for the most part of the week I spend the afternoons with Mati. So when Diana gets back from work, I usually just go to the computer to

send emails and stuff that I haven't been able to do during the afternoon. Check out all your favorite podcasts. Order your Ragnarok survival kits at bit.ly slash survive Ragnarok. I understand. What are you not doing all day long? What is your profession? I do comics.

I write comics, and I also have a small publisher. You are a small publishing company, or you have a small publisher for your comics? I am a small publishing company. Oh, okay. And you publish comics in Colombia? Yep. Oh, and I presume in the Spanish language is correct? Yeah. And what kind of comics are you?

Do you write these and illustrate or do you just write them? yeah and what kind of comics are you so far do you write these and illustrate or do you just write them i've worked as a writer for some time now i don't need your i don't need your whole resume do you write comics or draw comics i write them all right and i also edit them and you edit them which is more fun than writing obviously because you don't have to do the work you just tell people what to do it's like having a judge podcast now i'm going to tell you right now you endured a lot of ragnarok bit.ly slash survive ragnarok uh uh plugging what's the name of your company and and are your comics available in the united states or only in bogota? The company is called Robot. And no, I mean, they're not available

in the US. What is it called again? Editorial Robot, which is basically like Robot Publisher. Robot. Robot is how we say it in the United States. Robot. Right.

And are they all about, are the comics all about robots or superheroes or people having life experiences autobiographical political tell me a little bit more i just gotta i just gotta fill this out until i tell you that you're wrong we do mostly graphic novel right and uh we also have a line for comics for children right but we don't do superheroes and the stuff i write is a little bit more political now let me ask you your comics your comics for children are they printed on paper oh my but the children might cut themselves on the pieces of paper how dare dare you? That's pretty thin paper.

All right. What is your complaint? Look, it sounds to me like your wife, Diana, and your daughter, Matilda, are having a wonderful bonding experience cooking food that you're going to eat while you're checking your email. And they're having the bonding experience as your daughter emulates your wife

by essentially play- play cutting up incredibly soft broccoli with a dull knife what is your complaint i don't think the the knife is that dull i think it's potentially dangerous uh because uh diana has this very intense way of cooking. So she's not only focused on what Mati is doing, she's also paying attention to something that's boiling or getting something out of the fridge. So I think it's potentially dangerous. But aside from that, there's also the fact that I think it's important to sort of set up certain rules in the kitchen. There must be some things that only grownups can do. I think it's important to sort of set up certain rules in the kitchen. There must be some things that only grownups can do. I think that we sort of have to agree on that.

So, yeah, I think it's not okay to do it at this moment of our life. And I respect that bonding experience. Sometimes I participate, but I think the knife is just too much. They can bond doing other things. There's a ton of stuff to do in the kitchen, to do while cooking. Let's just look for something else until she turns the right age. What other things could she do? Have fun standing at a safe distance? She could mix.

She likes to pour in salt or pour in water. She does it all the time. Yeah, yeah. And she does a lot of things. And she really likes it. It's just that I think that... All right. I think I understand your point. It's the knife work itself that... All right. I think I understand your point.

It's the knife work itself that you are concerned about. And not merely because it is intrinsically dangerous, but because it's a gateway drug to more dangerous knife work. Do you think she'll be traveling with a circus potentially? Yeah. The butter, the, the,

the, the dull table knife is a, is a gate, is a gateway knife to the deadly sigh. I believe that, I believe that you sent in some evidence, Pablo, you took a photograph of,

of your knife, which is, I think probably the most productive thing a small comic book publisher has ever done. And you sent it in by email to me. And here it is. I'm opening it. And we'll put this on the blog, obviously.

This looks like a pretty typical Colombian household table knife with a very light serrated edge. Yeah. And a rounded point. And, you know, about what you'd see. I wouldn't want to spread butter with it, but I could cut up some soft broccoli with it for sure. And this is probably, I can't see it to scale, but it's probably a normal size, right?

It is. Yeah, yeah, it is. Excuse me, I'm talking to somebody. Excuse me, excuse me. I will have order. Deanna, what kind of food do you cook? I'm sorry about I insulted have order. Deanna, what kind of food do you cook? I'm sorry about I insulted your broccoli. Now you can tell me what kind of food you can cook and give me three dishes. And with each dish, rank from zero to 10, where zero is most safe and unintense and 10 is most reckless and intense of the activity it takes to cook it. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Yeah. Well, I cook all sorts of things. And tell me about things that you would be, tell me about things you would be cooking with Mati. Do you do deep frying with, with Matilda in the kitchen? When? No, I will ask Pablo to please keep her out of the kitchen while I do that, because I get that it's not okay. Now, let me ask you to pause right there. Pablo, obviously, your wife figured out that I would not approve of your daughter being in the kitchen when she was deep frying and changed her answer, right? I mean, she does do deep frying when your daughter's in the kitchen, right? She was just lying, right?

Yeah. I mean, the way I see it is this. No, no, no, no. I don't want you to go on another thing. Was your wife telling the truth when she anticipated my judgment and when she said, I asked Pablo to keep Mati out of the kitchen when I'm deep frying? Is that a true or a false statement? It is true. All right. That's all right.

Pablo, Pablo, Pablo, you're going to get a fair, you're going to, you're going to get a fair hearing. I just needed to ascertain whether or not your, your wife is a liar.

All right. I apologize, Deanna. Deanna. So you were going to do. Oh, what? She didn't technically lie. Oh. She didn't technically lie? In what way did she technically?

In what way did she non-technically lie? Because this is the way it sort of works out. She's not thinking of, okay, I'm going to cook this. She's very creative in cooking. She's amazing. She's great at that. So she would say, okay, so we should fry this. And she would go ahead and sort of start setting everything up. And then she would think, oh, wait, Mati's here, so I should go, Pablo.

And he has to run to the kitchen to get Mati out before she starts to fry. So it's technically true, but the way it sort of worked out, it's very rushed. First of all, specificity is the soul of narrative. Diana, what are you deep-frying? Well, we don't deep-fry every single time, but I was thinking of, you know, sometimes I do that. I'm not afraid of deep-frying.

Nor am I. I want to hear more about it as soon as possible. What do you deep-fry? Plantains. Plantains. I want to hear more about it as soon as possible. What do you deep fry? Plantains. Plantains. I want to eat them now. Good. Yeah. Could you make us some plantains, please? Yeah. For sure. I'll send them your way. She will. She will.

All right. What else do you... In the house. But you don't invite your daughter to toss smashed plantains into the hot oil. No, no, no. We usually cook, I don't know, pasta together. She's not putting the pasta in the boiling water, of course. But she's, I don't know, cutting the mushrooms for doing the sauce. Right.

And you appreciate she's doing a terrible job. She does a great job. That's the thing. She has the skills. And I think that I'm teaching her, you know, something for life. It's not just,

you know, about the cooking. It's that she's learning us in the story, in the lines from the Game of Thrones. She's learning, you know,

very important stuff. What are the things... Excuse me, Pablo, I'm speaking to your wife now. Seriously, if you keep interrupting, I'm going to find in her favor before even pretending to listen to your side of this case. So if you would like your mock trial to stand, you will be quiet for a moment.

What are the skills? What are the knife... What are the knife skills you are teaching her? And then take it one the knife? What are the knife skills you were teaching her? And then take it one more direction. What are the life skills you're teaching her? One knife skill, one life skill. Cooking. I think cooking is, is very important. And, you know, just having that relationship with food, I think it's important.

I learned to cook with my grandma and with my mom. And that's, you know, how I pretty much, I don't know. I really appreciate those moments with them. And we still cook together. And I really like that. So I feel like, okay, it's something nice for her to learn. And something that will be very useful, like at least twice a day, I think. She will have to cook her meal. So I think that's something good to know. Well, all right. But listen, you did very good on the life skill

aspect of that question. Now I want to narrow, I want to home in, not hone in, okay? Because that would be a misuse of the word and a terrible knife pun. I want to home in on this one part of the question. What specific instructions about safety or artistry are you giving to your daughter about using that knife? She definitely knows how to grab the knife, you know, like steadily and firmly. You grab that part of the knife, that could be useful. Well, she has the fine motor skills of a two-year-old. She can grab things and put it in her mouth. She can begin to start putting blocks on top of one another. I don't doubt that she can naturally grab a knife. What instructions are you giving to her about using knives safely?

Okay. That's a good question. She definitely knows she can put the knife in her mouth. She knows that knives cut. I've been telling that to her a lot. She knows that I help her hold whatever she's cutting. She's not like, you know, like a crazy little girl just cutting everything. No, I'm holding whatever she's cutting. And she knows that.

I just need to stop you there. I just need to interrupt you so that I'm sure that I understand. She knows to hold whatever she's cutting? Like we together hold whatever she's cutting. Like she holds one part of the broccoli. I hold the other part and she cuts. She knows that you cannot point the knife to somebody that is in the kitchen. Right. Okay. All right. Good. All right, Pablo. Thank you, by the way. Let me just for a point of clarity, what part of the broccoli are you holding and what part of the broccoli is she holding? And then how does the knife fit in? She holds the stem and I hold

the flowery, more flower part. The floret. The floret, thank you. And how do you keep it from just disintegrating in your fingertips into mush because it's so overcooked? It's not overcooked. Okay, the knife is serrated.

Yeah, but don't you understand that the more you argue that this knife has true cutting power, the more likely I'm going to find in favor of your husband? Well, I'm afraid too that Matt is a very, very good, I don't know,

she's very good at buying motor skills. Like, she can do other, very good. I don't know. She's very good at fine motor skills. Like she can do other stuff that is, I don't know. You don't have to throw fine motor skills back at me. I just said that. You're just imitating what I say in order to curry favor like a toddler yourself. Madam, please stand by while I speak to your husband, Pablo. Do you feel that your wife is not giving sufficient supervision to your daughter when she uses this dull knife?

I think we should be clear on what, there are certain things that she's not ready to do and that's it. It's not that big a deal. She's going to be a child for, you know, a decade and we'll have enough time to cook with her and she'll have enough time to cook with a table knife or... Have there been...

I understand your point. Have there been any close calls? No. So far, no. Do you also... They haven't really done it that much because she's very young. Even, I think, before, it would have been unthinkable for her to do that. Maybe six months ago.

You mean when she was a three-month-old? Yeah, that would not be a good time to handle it. Yeah. Exactly. Look, I have children. I have human children, as you know, who more and more are becoming less like children and more like weird animals that are living in my house who kick me all the time. They're kick animals. You know what I mean?

I don't know what the word is in Spanish for that, kick animals. But it's hard for me to remember precisely. kick animals but you only know the Portuguese Judge Hodgman it's hard for me to remember precisely what a two year old is like so I was thinking back to my friend John whose two year old daughter was hanging around recently and I was trying to picture her with a knife and it's on the cusp

do you disapprove of kitchen toy kitchen sets with knives no no i think they're they're fine as long as um no i think they're fine i think those are fine because those are clearly marked as something that is different from the real thing can you cut anything with those knives Could you cut a mushroom with one of those knives? You would have to work it really hard to make it cut. But yeah, it wouldn't maybe it wouldn't leave the mushroom

the mushroom would not be eatable after you're done with you know, trying to cut it with that knife. Sorry, my English is failing. Sorry. No, it's you're doing a wonderful job. Thanks.

Yeah, because it bothers me that it is an actual knife. Well, there's this thing about Diana that she's very concerned about safety on a regular basis, but sometimes she gets really excited because for her, allowing Mati to discover new things is very important, as it should be. But sometimes she would not balance well the relation between safety and the ability of discovering something new.

So I think this is part of it. She's very excited about letting Mati discover something else, like a new skill in the kitchen or wherever. But it's not I don't think it is safe at this moment. Let's wait a little bit. If you weren't so busy with your emailing and your comic books and everything else and you were there, would you do a better job of supervising your daughter cutting up a piece of broccoli? I know. I don't think I would be. And maybe that's another point. I want to

share that bonding experience. And I feel if I'm not confident... You mean you want to learn how to cut up a piece of broccoli? No, I wouldn't do any job. You want to hold the stamp while your wife holds the floret and you cut it in half? Judge Hodgman, don't be so flippant. It really is something special to learn how to cut a perfectly cooked piece of broccoli with a butter knife. There has to be something in the wrist or something. I honestly can't even picture how you would do it. So when would be a reasonable age for your daughter, according to you, to start doing, let's say, this activity?

This activity? The particular activity of cutting overcooked broccoli, let's wait until she turns three. Well, you know what? Until she turns three, that's like two days from now. Why are you wasting this court's time? Well, it's ten months from now. Ten months from now is two days from now.

I don't know, what time zone are you in in Columbia? Is that central time? It is the same time as Massachusetts when it's not in the wintertime. You don't have to brag. I'm just asking about the time zone, okay? I'm talking about longitude right now, not latitude. I don't need your latitude right now, dude. My terrible pun for the year. The worst.

You got a bad latitude. Yeah. No. It's going to be three in any minute now. So the difference between your wife being a good mother and your wife being a bad mother is 10 months. Nine months. Yeah, it's nine months already. I mean, you could say that this is sort of a standard that I think should be kept for other types of decisions. Please.

types of decisions. Please. Where I think you have to wait in whether it's safe to do something, to allow her to do something that can be potentially dangerous. I know that's a central part of parenting, where you always have to sort of think about that and balance that and deal with that. But I think that it's important for both of us to feel okay about it. And it's important for both of us to sort of make that decision, not just do it automatically on the go.

Yes, I'm ready to hear your final words, Diana. I guess in general, I always thinks that things are going to fail, that everything is going to go wrong. And I feel that that's also part of this, that he thinks, oh, this could happen and this can happen and this is going to be a problem. And I just think that it's going to be okay most of the time. I don't know. I think Mati is also able okay most of the time. I don't know. I think Mati is also able to cut at this time. She has the skills. She's interested.

She's doing a great job. She hasn't cut herself. And I don't know. I think that we have fun. And fun sometimes is scary, but it's okay. Well, you're having fun. I mean, Diana is also passionate about other things um

it's just that I mean she's passionate about other stuff um and when she's being passionate about I don't know Matty going to a playground and sort of getting you know one of the little thingies or climbing or

doing something i try to be considerate about her concerns i try to sort of make sure that she's okay with whatever matty's doing and at the same time sort of allowing matty to explore that and that's where i think we're not i mean that that is something I think should be in both ways, right? Again, to be specific, can you give me a counterexample of something that you have encouraged in Mati's life that Diana feels is too dangerous or inappropriate where you have said you know what you're right let me back off I think it's okay but if you feel uncomfortable with it I won't do it yeah when Mati was learning how to walk uh Diana was very scared of Mati just falling down and uh so she would always hold her hands and I thought that Mati needed to be sort of left alone a little bit more. So she would start sort of needing to walk by herself.

But Diana was very adamant about, I don't want her to hit her head. I don't want her to fall down. And I think I tried to be very considerate about that, about sort of, okay, so I'm going to be there for Mati. But I'm also going to try to sort of let her go a little bit. Sort of, you know, look for a middle ground. Did your husband let you hold your daughter's hand or did he tell you, did he bat you away? He didn't want me to hold her hands he was all the time like oh see you're not letting her walk i don't know you weren't that supportive but you

should answer the question did i let you do it sometimes sometimes sometimes not right and i i look i disagree with her but i respect that Okay. I know that she must feel comfortable doing whatever or doing things in a certain way that she feels comfortable doing. That is sort of what worries me. But I feel like, okay, so should I, I need to have some input on it. On how they're going to, you know, deal, I don't know, safety issues in their kitchen or, I mean, in six months it's going to be something else. In a week it's going to be something else. A start will be good. Right. else. And maybe in a week it's going to be something completely different.

A song for a good night. Right. Right. Okay. I think I've heard everything that I need to hear. I am going to go into my chambers and fry up a big plate of plantains and I will burn myself horribly. And during the healing process, I will make my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Pablo, you mentioned that you think this could lead to other things. What do you think is at the end of this path? I think she will be sort of baking cakes when she's five. That sounds pretty terrible. God, I would hate it if my son started baking for me. That would be the worst. He just showed up with cookies one day. That would be horrible. I can't imagine living in a world where my child produced treats without me

having to do anything. What a grotesque nightmare. She's really talented. I mean, I'm not saying they're not going to be delicious, but I think it's all about her being a little bit too young to start doing certain things. I agree that Diana was...

I mean, her background, she was exposed to cooking earlier than I was. Not too much earlier. The truth is that Diana doesn't know how to cook anything. I cook enough. Ramen doesn't count as cooking.

It's not only that. Ramen noodles in the microwave doesn't count as cooking. You can't even bring yourself to cook on the stovetop? Just eat them on the way there. I know my way around this. I'm not as creative as Deanna. Like I would always think of the same, like three dishes.

And then, but I don't even mind doing, I don't even mind eating the same thing, you know. Deanna, my son and my wife and I toured a preschool where the preschoolers were allowed to prepare their own lunches using not butter knives, but rather real knives. I was very impressed by this, but I wasn't sure whether I should send my kid there. Do you have an opinion about the matter? We're talking about three, four-year-olds. I didn't know that existed even. I don't know.

I don't know what I would do. I love the idea. I would have to check the knives, see if they're heavy enough and sharp enough. Because if they're not heavy, that's it. If they're not sharp, I mean, that's even worse. You mean like the one that you gave your daughter? Would you say that's the worst of all? Yeah, you know, when they're not sharp, then you get caught.

You need really sharp knives to cut. For example, a tomato. If it is not really sharp, then you get caught. Can I ask you a follow-up question? Would it change your opinion about the preschool that I saw that they had a bunny rabbit and I heard

they had a goat, but I didn't see the goat? Oh! I would love that. I don't know. Can I say that Matthew cooks at his preschool? Yeah, I think it is a preschool. She used to win her class pizza too. And they cook with these plastic disposable knives. Do you know the ones that come with takeouts? I think those are even more dangerous than mine.

Yeah, I think both of us, we were kind of concerned about learning. And when we learned that. I would rather have my kid cutting, you know, with a real knife. Well, we'll see if your kid will be cutting with a real knife. We'll be back in just a second

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Just a point of clarification as I was listening to the door, Jesse. At your son's preschool or preschool. Prospective preschool. Prospective preschool. You were saying that the kids were buttering their bread not with butter knives, but with real knives, like with chef knives? They were cooking. Like cleavers? They were cutting vegetables with full-on chef's knives.

Full-on? Like an eight-inch chef's knife? I don't remember the... I didn't bring my ruler, but like actual knives with cutting blades that you would use to cut things. It's hard to second-guess a parent's gut feeling about what is safe and what is not safe.

Often when we are parenting, the only thing we have to go on is our gut. And a lot of raising kids and helping them to be smart and independent and developed is to establish what our gut feeling of safe is and then let the kids go a little bit farther than that. Because I think all parents will naturally have a much more conservative impulse to put the child into swaddling clothes and then into a hyperbaric chamber and then drape that child with a nice homemade artisan quilt to protect them from all media until they are 25. And let me tell you something, we tried that for several years with my daughter and it did not work at all. The physician called her condition failure to thrive, which is actually a diagnosis. My daughter didn't get it, but some friends of ours did.

Their child was having difficulty getting nutrients, and it was called failure to thrive. And it was such a grim diagnosis. But he's fine now. He's thriving like crazy. And, of course, around dangerous things, this a – the issue of danger becomes more important. Knives, even a butter knife with a light serration, even a Colombian butter knife is dangerous than – is more dangerous than a toy knife or a piece of paper in a comic book. I mean, these are the realities of objective. This is objective reality that we see with our eyes and hear with our ears and feel with our skin, right? But the trick is, as Cyril Farrell tells us, we have to not allow our hearts and minds to trick us.

Now, it might surprise you to know that I am a supporter of the Second Amendment. I am a huge, huge supporter of consistent and strict gun laws and regulations about ownership of guns. But I have no problem with law-abiding citizens using and handling guns. And I believe, even though I am not in line with most of what the NRA says, I believe, I will not let my heart and mind trick me out of the reality that exposing children to dangerous things, perhaps the most dangerous thing of all, like guns, right, in a supervised way, okay, at the appropriate age, is one way to keep children from thinking that guns are toys. That's why I don't like toy guns because guns exist for one reason, to kill and hurt other creatures. That doesn't mean that

they shouldn't exist in the world, but you should know the power that you hold in your hand when you use them. So look, my human daughter is about to be 12 years old. We were given an opportunity to go skeet shooting, which is perhaps the most, you know, the most controlled situation that you can have with a gun. But even then, it's not a particularly controlled situation because it's still a gun. And they showed us both how to load and discharge that over and under shotgun. And it was completely a learning experience for both of us. Right. And it was awesome for me and terrifying for my daughter, who will probably never go near know something new about a gun. And I think, and I've said this in the New York Times Magazine, that even someone who is against all private gun ownership should learn how a gun operates because you may want to be able to unload a gun the time comes. Knowing things is better than not knowing things. Now, knives are not guns, but I'm just going to put that aside for a moment and then move on to another little story I'm going to tell you about that time when my son was perhaps, I guess, probably six or seven years old. And it was just at that moment when you were feeling as the grown-up, as the parent, that you might be able to close your eyes around the child for a moment and give him run of the apartment. He's been trained in all the dangerous things.

We never really baby-proofed our house because that seemed like a ridiculous waste of time and energy. We showed our children where the dangerous things were, and we tried to instruct them as best as possible so they would develop good common sense on their own. And around seven years old, six years old, you start to feel like that child, if it's not a dumb, dumb child, is going to get it. And you can just close your eyes for five seconds and not have to constantly maintain vigilance over this child. And that's when I felt I started to fall asleep, listening to my child play in the sink, in the bathroom sink, filling up the bathroom sink and filling it full of toys and little toy boats and that sort of thing. It was a delightful thing to hear.

Nothing's going to happen. And just as I'm falling asleep, I heard the hairdryer turn on. And I have never moved as fast in my life as i did waking up and running in and seeing my son with the hair dryer on putting it almost you know inches from the water and i and i i didn't tear it from him i calmly took it away from him and I turned it off. I'm like, what's going on? He said the boats needed some wind. Boy, oh boy, you dummy, you almost killed yourself. I didn't put it quite that way. But I was pretty clear he would have died if that hair dryer had made it into the water.

Now, what's the difference? In one case, any parent will say, a lot of people, I think, would say that letting my daughter at the age of almost 12 handle an over and under rifle, it was not a 30, whatever. It was not a big one. It was a little one. It was for kid size. But even so, will be really upset that I did that. And it was a dangerous situation. It was beyond my gut comfort level. And then the other story is me establishing my gut comfort level is pretty good and realizing there's unpredictable danger at any given moment. comfortable you are with the situation, it can turn deadly. What's the difference between the two stories? Well, in one, my child was dealing with danger in a supervised environment, indeed, a super heightened supervised environment. Because not only did the manager of the skeet shooting range have, obviously, his years of experience and also his job and sanity riding on the assurance that no one was going to get hurt, especially children. But also, I was there watching every second of the incredibly dangerous thing that my daughter was doing. And I don't regret it for a second, because through supervision, training, and the sense of gravity we both gave to her as she lifted up that gun and fired it, that is itself the more powerful lesson.

She's a terrible shot, by the way. I'm embarrassed. That was embarrassing. I didn't tell her, but she'll learn. She'll listen to this eventually. And of course, the other situation was that I was not properly supervising my child. And I thought I had it okay, but I wasn't. I was making the wrong call. And Jesse, you're right to be concerned about kids using chef's knives at the age of three or four, not because an adept three or four year old couldn't necessarily handle it. I think it's a little bit. My gut feeling is even in a one on one situation, that's going to require 100 percent attention.

But certainly in a room full of three or four year olds and at a child to a teacher ratio of, you know 5,000 to one or whatever, or even three to one. It's not, to me, that would set off my alarm. But in a properly supervised environment, can a child cut some broccoli with a butter knife or a table knife, even one that is lightly serrated, even if the broccoli is incredibly mushy? I think that the answer

is plainly yes. And the thing is, Pablo, you are presenting a bunch of different arguments, none of which are the argument that you really want to make. One argument you're saying is that it's intrinsically dangerous. Yes, it is intrinsically dangerous, but you look with your eyes, you hear with your ears, you look at that Colombian table knife and you appreciate there is it is very it would be in a very unusual circumstance in which a well supervised child who is holding one end of a piece of broccoli and cutting directly down the middle is going to somehow slip and, you know, stab herself in the eye or your wife or whatever. And, you know, stab yourself in the eye or your wife or whatever. The other argument you're making is that knives are adult things, which is an argument that you have already disqualified for yourself. Because if you are worried about the symbolism of a child using a knife, you've lost the battle because you're already letting her use toy knives, indeed, and plastic knives and everything else. It is true that knives are adult tools, right? But teaching a child how to begin to understand what an adult tool is,

is part of every aspect of parenting. Saying to a child, this is okay to use, that is not okay to use. Helping a child understand this is dangerous will help a child, right, who is learning her way in the world to not merely bond with her mom or dad who's cooking with her, but to appreciate that knives are tools that can be dangerous and not crazy shiny magic that they want to touch and play with when they're able to reach for the eight-inch chef's knife at Jesse's preschool. Right? It teaches them a respect for the adult tool. And then the third thing, I think, is just that knives are scary to you or the whole situation just makes you uncomfortable.

And here is where I think we get to the heart of the matter, right? Which is that you, I think what you really want to say is that probably cutting a piece of broccoli with a table knife under controlled circumstances probably is okay, but you don't trust your wife to do it properly. You don't trust your wife to supervise your daughter properly. That is what all this stuff about her being an intense cook is all about. I guess she's distracted and she's throwing plantains into hot oil and then she's setting fires and then she's deciding to change everything up or whatever. I don't know if any of that's true or not.

On a gut level, you, I think, are saying to your wife, I don't trust you to supervise this properly. And that's what you guys got to work out together. Because what you want is for us to be on the same page, not us, me, us, you two. It's important for us both to feel okay about it. And that's never, ever going to happen. Not exactly, because you're both going to have different gut feelings about any particular situation, just as you had a different gut feeling about, you know, how, you know, how much handholding your daughter should receive when you're teaching her to walk at the top of a tall set of stairs or on a key or a jetty. You have a different gut feeling. You're always going to have a different gut feeling. It's just the same reason why some people like game of Thrones because they're smart. And that's a great thing. And some people prefer Friday night lights because they're my wife. It's just,

that's how it goes. But here's where I turn to you, Dana. I, I believe your husband. Mm-hmm. I think that you have an obligation to make sure that he feels comfortable with the level of supervision that you are giving to your daughter when you are cooking with her. And right now, he does not feel comfortable.

And I think that you need to do some work to make sure that he trusts you. I will. All right. And the first thing I'm going to say is you cannot, you cannot just improvise a deep frying situation until you're, you cannot just say, you know what? Now I want to deep fry something. Right.

That's, that's serious's that's serious stuff. That's like building a fire that that requires your real attention, if only to get the food fried correctly. Never mind that the hot oil doesn't splatter on someone you love. So that has to be a much more controlled environment. And I would say if you want to help have your daughter help you cut things up and prep work and do some sous-chefing for you, that's great. Make sure that it is prep work. That is, that it is done with your full attention on her when there is no stove or fire on that will distract you or require your attention. Not because I feel that your daughter is going to turn into the little murderous doll from Trilogy of Terror.

Look it up, nerds. But because it will help your husband adjust his gut level discomfort to your gut level comfort. Discomfort, gut level. That's a long sentence. Okay? So I am finding in the favor of, I'm finding in the favor of Deanna and Matilda

in terms of the cutting up soft broccoli with a dull knife. I think that knife is fine. But I am ordering you to turn off all fires when that is happening. That is equally as important a safety lesson as teaching your daughter to use and respect a knife. And remember, always cut away from you and curl your fingers in

so you don't cut them off. This is the sound of a gavel. judge john hodgman rules that is all please rise as judge john hodgman exits the courtroom diana how are you feeling about the verdict i think think it's a fair verdict. I agree. It's going to be hard. It's going to take a lot of effort on my side, you know, just to make sure that fire is off and Matt is just doing some prep. I don't know. You know, sometimes you don't just have all the time, but I will. I will make sure. How old do you think Matti has to be before you send her to Los Angeles to live with me and cook all my plantains?

About two more years, I think. She has her visa already, so probably we can work on that. My son is a boy. We can just marry them off and get her a visa that way. It's easier. An arranged marriage. That's exactly what I was hoping for her. You know, it's easier. You know, an arranged marriage. That's exactly what I was hoping for her. All for the sake of broccoli.

Yeah. And plantains. Pablo, how are you feeling? Good. Did you guys talk about maybe having an amendment about mushy broccoli? You know, you can put some breadcrumbs on top and then run them under the broiler.

It'll give you a nice change in texture. But the verdict, Pablo, the verdict. The verdict. How do you feel? I feel good. I mean, I know. Yeah. I mean, I know, yeah, I mean, I think definitely it's more of how you do something than necessarily what is the end result. And I definitely agree with the fact that that worried me a lot more than maybe the specific point of Mati being able to use a knife or not.

And I think it's good to sort of, I don't feel that bad. I feel it turned out good. Well, Diana, Pablo, Mati, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thanks. such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. Thank you. And remember, you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit.

No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Hello, Judge Hodgman.

No, it's not a threat. I'm just getting ready to cook. Why did you distract me? I just cut myself with this very soft piece of broccoli that I was using to cut this mushroom. Are you okay? I'm okay. Have you ever been threatened by a knife, Judge Hodgman? With a knife?

I've never been threatened by a knife. Or with a knife. I've never been walking with a knife at night when we've been threatened by a knife nor has any knife come up to me with a knife in its knife and said your money or your knife and I didn't go I'm thinking about it Jack Benny most legendary

legendarily the longest applause break in comedy radio when the legendarily cheap Jack Benny was approached by a mugger and said, your money or your life? And he paused and he goes, come on, man, your money or your life? He goes, I'm thinking it over. Here's something from Evan, if you don't mind clearing the docket, Judge Hodgman. I don't mind. My friend Dane and I have a longstanding dispute over the short-sleeved button-up shirt.

Dane contends they're totally unfashionable and solely for dorks. For reference, see the cartoon characters Steve Smith of American Dad fame and Milton from Office Space. I feel they're a suave summertime option. As evidence, I present real cool tastemakers, Russell Westbrook, Suge Knight, and Josh Hom of Queens of the Stone Age. Yeah, I'm sure that's a very long-standing dispute because all of your references are super old. Office Space came out 15 years ago this February. Josh Hom is 40 years old, right? Rock and roll star, I guess, still, right guess still right yeah i mean suge knight's got to be 60 yeah but josh he's a he's a dad he's somebody's dad now you know what i'm saying

you guys and i i think i understand why you're so confused you guys are probably also 40 years old and you've also lost your sense of what's cool you don't know anymore you can't tell anymore what's cool you're not qualified to say it. You have to read about it in magazines. And I'm not saying this to be mean to you. I'm just saying that our sense of style, unless we work on it, really coalesces around what was okay when we were in our 20s, late teens, 20s, maybe early 30s. I still think probably a black mock turtleneck is an okay thing to do. I still think about the black mock turtleneck I bought at the Gap in 1992.

And I'm like, this is going to change my life. It's a work of constant vigilance to not put on a mock turtleneck, even though I don't even own any of them. Sometimes I wake up in the middle of night and I want to go out and buy them. Right? So that's why I rely on a couple of different things. One, experts like Jesse Thorne. And Steve Jobs. And Steve Jobs.

I didn't even think of it in those terms. That's right. Of course, Steve Jobs. He stuck with a style for a long time until it became iconic but it was still he never really looked that good though and and no and and no one adored adored and adores steve jobs more than i do except for his family of course but i you know i i love him and if he had asked me which he never would have, I would have said maybe a button-up short-sleeved shirt at some point. What do you think, Jesse? You run a men's fashion web show and blog and Tumblr, and you know a lot about this stuff.

It's called Put This On. Intrinsically, where does a button-up short-sleeved shirt stand in your mind? Wow. If the question is intrinsically, I would say that I'm inclined to go with Dane and say that they are totally unfashionable and solely for dorks. But if we leave aside the question of intrinsically, I would say that they're both right. And frankly, Evan is a little bit more right in a contemporary context than is Dane. It's definitely historically been something that is associated with people who want to wear something that is appropriate for work, but want to wear the minimum appropriate for work, which is to say dorks.

Yeah, but I think that definition is so out of date because the minimum appropriate for work has been on a downgrade scale year over year for two decades now, such that nerds who go into work with a minimum mean you're lucky if they wear shoes. Yeah, exactly. No, I agree. That's why I say historically. However, I would say that in the past few years, they've made quite a comeback, along with things like the Ray-Ban Clubmaster sunglasses that are signifiers of quote-unquote geek chic in the appropriate fabric and fit are reasonably contemporary. Although that in and of itself is probably slightly past its peak, though I wouldn't say past its sell-by date. Yeah, I think, here's what I think.

Uh, you should go with something reasonably contemporary. You should concern yourself with, with, uh, fit, uh, and style. Don't wear anything too big or too small. Does it look good on you? Looks good on you. Then it doesn't matter. You're 40 years old. Who cares what Dane thinks anymore?

Forget him. Dane is the past. You are the future. I would say if you aren't confident about wearing that garment, you can always wear a traditional Oxford cloth button down shirt, which is, you know, usually these shirts, if they're not that kind of white cotton poly blend like Milton from Office Space wears, they're cotton Oxford cloth.

I would say just wear the long-sleeve version and roll the sleeves up. It gives you the same effect, but without being quite so affected. I say go for it. Do you think he should wear the ghost tie which is to say button all the way up to the top there's another trend that came came came right along with it that uh uh that is also uh somewhere in between its peak and its sell by date well that's not a look that I would like,

but I don't know anything. You know what I mean? But I bet you... Well, you know, mock turtlenecks. I know. Intrinsically, that to me makes me feel like you're going too far. At that point, you're going too meta with your shirt.

Instead of just wearing a shirt that looks good and makes you feel good, then you're going too meta with your shirt. Instead of just wearing a shirt that looks good and makes you feel good, then you're going too far. But if it looks good on a person, I'm going to say that looks good on that person. Are you going to say it in that voice? That sort of slightly excited voice? Oh, yeah, that looks good on that person. That looks good on Evan. Evan knows how to wear that. yeah, that looks good on that person. That looks good on Evan. Evan knows how to wear that.

Evan, you look good in that shirt. Evan, you look good in that shirt, buttoned up to the top. Oh, I like that mock turtleneck. You look nice. I say, the reason this is on my mind is because I'm trying to get some old things out of my closet and put some new things in there.

And what I'm realizing, the real thing that you need to do is the one thing that I have always hated doing the most because I hate touching and feeling my body, which is try on clothes. Try on a lot of clothes. Things that look good and feel good are immediately apparent. You can develop taste and you would do worse than by going to put this on and putting on whatever Jesse tells you to put on. But you would do a lot worse if you just read a lot of fashion

advice and bought that stuff blind over the internet and started wearing it around like a dum-dum. Try things on. It's the first step to developing your own sense of what looks good and feels good on you. Is that wrong, Jesse? I think that's fair. Try a lot of clothes on.

Here is an audio update from Chris and Sophie from the case, The Right to Remain Silent. If you don't remember the case, Chris was Sophie's father and was trying to get her to come out of her shell. And he wanted Sophie to read some of her poetry at the coffee house at the college at which he worked. And part of Judge John Hodgman's decision was that Chris would have to read poetry at that coffee house. So that was how I punished him. Yes. They recorded an audio update here and they sent us the text of the poems that chris performed let's take a listen hi it's sophie we're just checking in my dad wrote two poems and he read them both and he did a very good job but it's

something i wouldn't do in a million years and i've attached those two poems in an email, so feel free to read those and make as much fun of them as you want. Sophie's really looking forward to her next celebrity spotting opportunity so she can put the role-playing activities she did with Eugene and Isabel into action, right? So what celebrity do you want to meet? She's not ready. She's choking up again. All right, bye-bye. She couldn't quite bring herself to say Secretary of State John Kerry.

It's every girl's dream. He's a silver fox, that JK. I once was on the one time I ever spent any time on Nantucket. The one time I was ever in Nantucket. I was eating dinner in a restaurant. I looked across and there was John Kerry, which already took me by surprise. And then I realized he was actually sitting there at dinner with a powder blue cable net sweater tied around his shoulders yes you bet he was and this was not long after well it was actually quite a bit long after he had he had

failed in his bid for president but he had clearly stopped thinking about ever running for president again and was now ready to come essentially come out of the closet as the big prepster that he is that's like running into jesse helms at a rib joint and he's wearing a string tie so did we hear the poem or not we they didn't record the poem but i can i can perform a dramatic interpretation as i imagine he performed it at the coffee house if you like we didn't record the poem, but I can perform a dramatic interpretation as I imagine he performed it at the coffee house, if you like. Wait, we didn't get a recording from the coffee house? Well, they probably don't allow recordings in the coffee house. They don't want those bootlegs to get out there.

All right. Here's what I'm going to say. Let's put both poems up on the website for people to read. I would love to hear a dramatic reading from Jesse Thorne to end the show. And then I want that guy to go back to the coffee house and do it again and record it. I need to hear that. Judgment has not been served yet. Do we have to say anything before you read any poetry, Jesse? I would like to say that thank you to all the folks out there who bought Max FunCon tickets. Max FunCon is officially sold out. So if you'd like...

Yeah, I know. Isn't that amazing? If you'd like to come, we always get in a few people off the waiting list just because of the way the numbers of performers and presenters come around and stuff like that. All you have to do to get on the waiting list is email your name and your

daytime telephone number and the number of people in your party to waitlistatmaximumfun.org. Waitlistatmaximumfun.org. Let us know. And the number in your party, let us know whether or not you're a couple, as in sharing a bed. I'm just going to type in that I would like to be on the waitlist, and my name is John Hodgman, and my party is 35 people,

and we're all a couple. Okay. I mean, I already announced that you were coming, so I guess I'm just going to have to clear out room for that extra 34. And you have room for my 34 polyamorous cuddle puddle partners? I guess I'll make room. I mean, I don't know. I'll do what I have to do. We have sleeping bags and sleeping mats.

Here's the poem. It's called The Judgment Not Wanted. Two litigants sitting on a bench of wood, a favorable judgment not to be had by both. Nervous to be sworn is as we stood. Make my case as best I could Steering clear of legal undergrowth Would the judgment be fair?

I surely thought I had the better claim Would the judge see where? On this day my arguments were not just there It is too bad the court and I didn't feel the same The prosecution a mighty fine case before the judge lay. The case against me laid out in white and black. Oh, I was not to win the case this day. Knowing a judgment against me was on the way.

I doubted if I should ever come back. I shall be telling this with a sigh. Somewhere, ages and ages hence, two litigants sitting on a bench of wood, and I, I lost the case and was sentenced by Judge John Hodgman, who hoped to make a difference. It's derivative of both the road not taken and the William Carlos Williams, two plums I ate in Yellowwood or whatever. And they were so cold and sweet. So I'm sorry. And that made all the difference. I need a recording.

You know what they say? You know what they say on podcasts? Wrecks or it didn't happen. And thanks this week to the person who named our case, Keisha Jenkins Duffy. If you want to name a future case, like us on Facebook, just search for Judge John Hodgman or follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. And of course, if you have a dispute, you may also email me at Hodgman at MaximumFun.org or go to MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. I review all of the cases personally. My website is JohnHodgman.com where you can find out details about my sixth show one man show run at

the public theater as part of the under the radar festival this january i'm terrified about it it would be nice to see you there best show for life everybody talk to you next time we'll talk to you next time on the judge john hodgman podcast thanks. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org

slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at forum.maximumfun.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash judgejohnhodgman. We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximumfun.org Comedy and culture.

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