Judge John Hodgman - Lingua Fracas

Episode Date: October 3, 2013

Doug brings the case against his best friend Ty. Ty insists on pronouncing foreign words with the proper accent when speaking in English. Doug says this is pretentious, and that Ty should just accept the common pronunciation of words when he's Stateside.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, lingua fracas. Doug brings the case against his best friend Ty. Ty insists on pronouncing foreign words with the proper accent when speaking in English. Doug says that's pretentious. He thinks Ty should just accept the common pronunciation of words when he's stateside. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Here are some helpful foreign phrases. Listen and then repeat after me. Hello. Hello. Good morning. Good morning. Good evening.

Good evening. How are you, person of equal status? How are you, person of equal status? How are you, person of higher status? How are you, person of equal status? What hour does the sun have? What hour does the sun

have? What is it that passes itself here? What is it that passes itself here? What good cuisine serves itself at this foodotech? What good cuisine serves itself at this foodotech? What good cuisine serves itself in this foodotech? Do you serve snail cups?

Do you... Be quiet, you people! Do you serve snail cups? Do you serve tongues and sea fruits? Do you serve tongues and sea fruits? Do you serve tongues and sea fruits? Do you serve hot crab tendon and family-style sponge on unique rice? Do you serve hot crab tendon and family-style sponge on unique rice? That food does not taste me well.

That food does not taste me well. Which of these four mysterious holes and basins is the toilet? Which of these four mysterious holes and basins is the toilet? I am prepared for exit. I'm prepared for exit. I'm prepared for exit. Jesse, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth,

the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he himself is an advocate for Esperanto,

the international language? I do. I do. Very well, Judge Hodgman. You may be seated. Doug versus Ty, the showdown of a lifetime. For an immediate summary judgment in one of your favor, can either one of you name the piece of culture that I was referencing in my dialogue or my dialogo with Jesse Thorne, my bailiff, our bailiff, your bailiff

as I entered the courtroom? Ty! Yes, is it the Mandarin Rosetta Stone? Be quiet, Ty. I already knew you were wrong. Doug, how wrong will you be? Was it the Vietnamese guide to English language? No.

No. Look, you guys have to understand. This is a true court of internet fake law. All right? This is not joking around time. I'm not looking for your jokes. I'm looking for your answers. I'm looking for your truth.

Your own truth must be good enough. If you don't know the answer, just say, I don't know. Do you know? I don't know. You don't know. I don't know either. And how embarrassed will you be to learn that I am referencing a piece called Helpful Foreign Phrases that was included in the book That Is All by John Hodgman? I am quite embarrassed.

Yes, as well you should be. Because when it comes to my own work i have a simple a simple maxim if you purchase the book you are freed from the obligation to read it did either of you did either of you purchase that book um i haven't yet no not yet right so you are still obliged to read it. You are both in contempt of this court. I'm really sorry to buzz market my own product on my own podcast. You know what? I have a right to, but it is rather tasteless, and I apologize to all my listeners. I was going to simply play the very short cut called Transmitting Live from Mars from the De La Soul album,

Three Feet High and Rising, which is simply a language lab or a French instructional tape over some groovy music. But then I realized I would be ripping off De La Soul by playing their music without permission. And I love and adore them. So I cannot do that. But I can rip me off plenty good so and i can speak plenty good too oh you know what i you know what i should have you know what i should have done for this one oh i'm so mad at myself please no one take offense if either of

you can name this cultural reference you you win the case. Hello. I can speak English. I learned it from a book. Ty or Doug? Hello. I can speak English. I learned it from a book. Ty or Doug?

I don't know. I don't know that one. No, I don't know it either. Fawlty Towers! Oh, okay. Manuel? I don't remember which episode it is. I'm sure someone will write in, but Manuel, the Spanish valet,

played just on the precipice of a fence by the actor who played him. I'm going to look him up very quickly. He's saying these words while he is obscured by a giant moose head, which has fallen off, and the major walks by, and he simply sees this moose head, and the moose head goes, Hello, I can speak English.

I learned it from a book. Andrew Sachs was the name of the actor who played Manuel on the precipice, on the cusp of offensiveness and perhaps beyond the cusp. What do you think, Bill of Jesse? Is Manuel in Fawlty Towers an offensive Hispanic stereotype? I suppose it is. Oh, wow. Yeah, I watched Fawlty Towers relatively recently.

I was surprised at how well it held up. And yes, he is an offensive stereotype. He is an offensive stereotype. Yeah, I mean, you're... I don't... I guess it's tough for me to judge because I don't know that much about what the stereotypes of Spaniards are. Right. But it is,

it is a, it is a de facto. Well, yeah, it's a, it's a de facto foreigners are, are hilarious and, uh,

and, and dumb. Although the butt of every joke on the show is at the expense of fault, uh, Basil faulty. But that said, all right, I will say for the,

I will put it in the record. Which one of you is keeping the record? Which one of you is a stenographer? Ty? Doug? Oh, you're the litigants. I forgot why we were even here. Well, one of you write this down. In the record, Fawlty Towers, which is a great

and legendary work of television comedy, is slightly marred by the offensive stereotype that is Manuel. Now, I've got no further cultural references to give to you guys, so I must simply render judgment. Doug, you're wrong and Ty's right. Oh, maybe I should listen to the case. Doug, what's your problem with Ty? Well, I think I have sort of three problems take your time because it's not like i gave you any time to prepare your at all no ready good three

problems you have three problems with your friend ty they are one one um just on the surface level the way he pronounces these words is is kind of annoying and irritating and just uncool and do you know what i find irritating what the way you just pronounced irritating but that's okay um two i think i think it's very it's pretentious and show-offy, and it's a way for him to, you know, just show his intellectual superiority over people. And I find that to be a bit mean-spirited. And then the third reason is that I think that it's best when you're communicating just to use the clearest, most easily understood form or pronunciation to get your form across.

So I think it's kind of an inefficient use of language. So you and Ty are friends for a long time, is that correct? Yeah. All right. What are your ages? I'm 35. So am I. Okay.

And how long have you guys known each other? 17 years. Yeah. Since we were 18. Okay. 18 years. No, 18. 18.

Yes. Exactly. Exactly. But, exactement. Exactement. But, mais, but your complaint is that Ty is walking around all the time, tossing off foreign words and phrases, and not merely that, but pronouncing them with exaggerated foreignness. Would that sum up your complaint there, Doug? Yes, it's in an ostentatious way. Would that sum up your complaint there, Doug? Yes.

It's in an ostentatious way. Do you know that using the word ostentatious is itself ostentatious? It's just something that was established at the Modern Language Arts Conference a couple years ago. All right, Ty. How do you, how do you répondé? I, I agree that I try to announce, pronounce foreign words as closely to the native tongue pronunciation as I can, but not standard foreign words. I only do new foreign

words in as close a translation of pronunciation as I can, because that's the only pronunciation we can go off of. How do you distinguish between foreign words and new foreign words? foreign words and new foreign words? Well, for instance, I mean, a lot of French has been standardized in English. So we say in English, hors d'oeuvres. Or Versailles, Missouri. Exactly. Versailles, Missouri. Or hors d'oeuvres, which is a standard English phrase.

But we don't say it exactly like the French say it. We would, you know, the French might say closer to hors d'oeuvre or something like that. But we say hors d'oeuvres. What we don't say is horse do-vers, you know, that's the way it's spelled, but we don't pronounce it that way. We pronounce it as close to the French as the American tongue can. So that's what I try to do. So if a gunky, pretentious mispronunciation from decades past has now passed fully into the English lexicon, such as hors d'oeuvres, you'll say hors d'oeuvres. But in your heart, you want to say, what was the phlegmy construction you gave again? Hors d'oeuvres.

Yes. Hors d'oe? Or. Yes. Or. Exactly. It's in the throat, like that. Which I think literally translates to outside of the eggs. I believe so, yes. Or outside the opening. Outside the opening. Oh, you mean served before entering the dining room.

Yes. Served before the main course. You hear that siren? I do. That's the police coming for you. Because I just so blew you away with my off-the-cuff etymology that they're coming to throw you in jail. None of that tracks at all.

I just wanted to call attention to the siren. Where are you guys, anyway? We're in New York City. Oh, New York City, all right. In Manhattan? Manahatta. Manahatta, right. That would be the original...

What was the Native American... The Manahattas. The Manahattas the manahattas i don't and peter minuit traded them a bunch of hors d'oeuvres for manhattan and at a cocktail party sometime in the 17th century is that right yeah that's a story i heard all right uh so all right but give me an example of a nouvelle mo that uh that you pronounce uh far too accurately for doug's taste well our latest big argument uh we're at a vietnamese restaurant and i enjoy a vietnamese soup called pho. Pho. However, it's spelled P-H-O, and Doug likes to call it pho.

Right. That's not a standard English word yet. I hope in the future it will be. But for now, we can only go as close to the native pronunciation if we're looking to pronounce it correctly. That's the only source we have is the native Vietnamese tongue. So I say pho, which I don't necessarily think is the correct pronunciation, but I'm trying to do as close of an accurate pronunciation as my poor mimicry and English American accent will allow. poor mimicry and English American accent will allow.

So you don't think that the, you don't think your pronunciation of the delicious beef and noodle soup of Vietnam is even your, even your pretentious self aggrandizing pronunciation that calls attention to yourself and your learnedness. Even that is not truly authentic is that what you're saying it is not and it's not self-aggrandizing i feel like i should say it better than i can i try to say it as well as i can let's go let's work on it right now okay now can i say we did try because we all ordered foe. It was like a group of four of us.

Sure. And everyone went around and ordered foe. Classic foe for four. Exactly. Foe for four. And the waiter was, you know. We went to a restaurant recently and the jerk served us foe foe for four. Turns out it was a vegetarian place.

Phony foe for four? Turns out it was a vegetarian place. Phony pho for four? But we all ordered pho first, and then it came to Ty and the waiter, who was Vietnamese, knew exactly what we were talking about, and then Ty sort of... I was just going to say,

first I'd like four pho, please, for the four of us that would be delicious i know i would like i would like i say i say fo but i know that that is wrong that it is a faux pas because my friend josh sado which is pronounced saddo by the way and not sadow just like rachel maddow not rachel maddow who lives in seattle or seedle as i call it schooled me the hard way he sent he sent the pronunciation police for me for driving around seedle with him saying saying foe this, foe that. He's like, no, it's pho.

And I think that there is there is a West Coast, East Coast distinction, certainly in Seattle, which probably has the best among the best Vietnamese food in the world that is not in Vietnam. You look you are looked down upon if you are down upon if you refer to it as pho. But let's work on, Jesse, what do you say? Pho. Pho. Okay, so Ty, how do you say it? Pho. And say it better now.

Get closer to what your ideal is. Pho. One more time. Fuh. This is one where the... Okay, drop the beat. This is one where the crime and the punishment for the crime are the same thing. Say it again.

Fuh. Fuh. Now, are you... Fuh. How am I doing it wrong? Fur. I don't know how you're doing it wrong, because I'm doing it wrong as well. I'm just doing my best approximation, because we did ask the waiter to pronounce it. Yeah. And it was really, I could get nowhere near the way he pronounced it. So this is my best approximation. But it's only one syllable and one mouth sound.

I mean, I'm... I don't know. I think there's multiple mouth sounds on the vowel. Fuh. All right. Fuh. Let me ask you this, Ty. Yes?

When Doug ordered for foe, did the waiter just sort of stand there blinking like, I don't know what you're talking about? He did not. He knew exactly what Doug was ordering. And Doug, let me ask you this question. When the waiter received the order for four-feu, four-feu, does his manner change in any way? Did he seem pleased, angered, or indifferent to Ty's amateurish attempt to imitate his mouth sounds? I think he seemed a little confused. That's all hearsay, of course. But Ty, you took a sharp intake of breath there, which

is either your expression of surprise and anger, or is you attempting to pronounce some other kind of foreign soup? I don't think he was confused. I think he understood what I was saying to him. And probably to his ear, both our pronunciations sounded equally horrible. But he knew what both of us were ordering. Who were your guests? Who were the other two in the pho party? Our friend Cara and her sister Lisa. Did either of them express frustration or

use the traditional non-verbal communication of our people of eye-rolling to indicate that they were annoyed by your pronunciation games? I do not recall that happening at all. They did. They definitely did. Do you have depositions from either of these two people attesting to the fact that they cannot stand it when Ty does this? I don't have a deposition, but I do know at one point in history, Kara struck Ty across the face over his pronunciation of the word mango.

I, first of all, I object to you, sir. And I to mangoes. I actually love mangoes. I just wanted to object to something. Thank you, Bailiff Jesse. I am now going to ask you, Doug, to repeat that entire sentence, not as punishment or to check your pronunciation, but just because I have never heard those words arranged in a sentence before and they are glorious. Do you remember what you said?

I think I said that at one point in history, our friend Kara struck Ty across the face over his pronunciation of the word mango. Oh, that is one of my favorite sentences of all time. Yeah, that was pretty good. favorite sentences of all time. Yeah, you got, that was pretty good. So how do you pronounce, Ty, the word commonly pronounced by the fruit ignorant of the world, mango?

I pronounce it mango. I did go through a phase when we all first met where I enjoyed saying mango in what i thought was a humorous and endearing fashion but it uh provoked violence in my friends what was your humorous and endearing pronunciation of mango um i haven't done it in quite a while but it was something along the lines of what do you need mango oh mango oh mango oh stop it stop stop stop that's so bad that it may actually be worse than mango from saturday night live why did you do that this is a whole other i mean doug i have to chastise you for entering this immaterial and irrelevant evidence because obviously ty is not attempting to reproduce a traditional foreign language pronunciation of the word mango he's just being insane

but your insanity here is almost as offensive as Manuel and Fawlty Towers. Why are you doing that? I don't know why I did it. And I stopped shortly after Kara hit me in the face. Full, like open hand or full fist? It was the open hand. She did not punch me. It was more of a slap. It was in the Museum of the City of New York where we're going through and I was saying mango a lot and she couldn't take it anymore. Yeah, why were you doing that? Were there historical mangoes? Is it the case that you were reading about how the streets streets of lower manhattan were originally paved with mango shells why were you doing that why were you how old were you i was probably 18 at that time okay well a lot can be forgiven but not that all right that's all. Let's go down the list. You did send in some words, Doug, that you find Ty pronounces hyperly or eeperly accurately.

Yes, and that is one of them. So, Doug, I'd like you to read this list of words as though this were a language instruction tape, So, Doug, I'd like you to read this list of words as though this were a language instruction tape. And, Ty, I would like you to pronounce them the way you would snobbly correct Doug if you ever heard him pronouncing these words. We've already gone through faux, so let's move on to everyone's favorite Greek sandwich. Gyro. Gyro. Sartre. Sartre. Gyro. Gyro. Sartre.

Sartre. Carnitas. Carnitas. Papardelle. Papardelle. Sacrebleu. Sacrebleu. Tamales.

Tamales. Hyper. Hyper. Colon. I... But I would say Cologne, Germany. Males. Hyper. Hyper. Koln. I... But I would say Koln, Germany. You say it the way you say it. Koln. Yeah.

Koln. Gota. Gerta. Femme. Femme. Acapulco. Acapulco. Puerto Vallartaco Puerto Vallarta

Homage Fate Forte Bonafide Ayers Rock Uluru And Mount McKinley denali all right let's i'm gonna this is one where i'm actually just gonna i'm gonna keep score here so you said you said bear i don't say e-bear. I like to say e-bear, but I know it's hyper.

And if I'm using it in, you know, just general conversation, I'll say hyper. But I like to say e-bear. Yeah, that's wrong. And that's a point for Doug. With the light turned out. Be a scarf thrown over the bedside lamp. E-bear. E-bear. thrown over the bedside lamp. Iper. Iper.

Iper. So, Doug, is it your wish that I should find in your favor and then order Ty to cease pronouncing the words that way and instead have him pronounce them the way you pronounce them? That's exactly what I want. And those words and only those words?

Well, and I would like also future words that come up. Future words? So not just Nouvelle words words but words of the future as well so you want to dictate how i pronounce words for here on out yes oh god i think you mean i mean that's my ultimate desire here in you're concerned that he's gonna say qua nuts instead of crow nuts huh that's exactly what i'm worried about ty what is your explain for me again your rationale for doing this um foreign words english is a wonderful language because so many of our words are foreign words sure um they enter our language and they become standardized. For example, passport.

Passport? Passport. Okay, passport. It is a corruption of passepartout. No? Is it? I don't know. Savoray.

Okay. I believe you. Corduroy. Corduroy. Denim. Denim. The neem. denim yes from neem see so what happens is these words as they become traditional english words they solidify in pronunciation however we have so many new words entering the language um we don't have any standard pronunciation of them yet, and the only source to find that pronunciation is in the native tongue. So I try to pronounce it as close to the native

tongue as possible, because that's the only guidepost we have on how to pronounce these new foreign words that are entering our language. Like I say, I believe pho will enter the language, whether it becomes more standard as pho, like you and Doug say, or as pho, as Jesse and I say, is up for the language itself to decide. But for now, all I can do is go with the only source I have, which is the native tongue. And I do mangle it, but I try. But many of these words that Doug is particularly upset about, your sort of hyper-pronunciation of, are pretty much well

entered into the language. I mean, hyper, obviously. Yes. Right? I would say carnitas is pretty well entered into the language. You don't have to add a particular accent to that in order to be accurate. particular accent to that in order to be accurate? Well, some of the Spanish pronunciations come from my mom's side of the family.

So that's the way I heard them growing up. Like tamales, that's what we had every Christmas with her, tamales. So that's how I say it. And where did you grow up? In Billings, Montana. Montana. Yes. Well, I say it. And where did you grow up? In Billings, Montana. Montana. Yes. Well, I say Montana.

Yeah, it's a regionalism. I say Montanya. People from... And then there is some dispute also over some pronunciation of English words. We've already discussed mango, but there is also what? Cereal? Yes, cereal. How do you say that? I say it's cereal, but that's a regional Montana pronunciation.

All right. That's how I grew up, saying cereal. There's not too many of those words like that in Montana, but there are a few. What are some of the other ones? So that I would not offend a native Montanan the next time I'm ordering Froot Loops, I would say,

could I have some of that Froot Loop cereal? And would you pour in some milk, please? You put milk with an E. Milk. No, that would be milk. How do you say it?

Milk. Oh, now you're really doing it. Milk. Boy, I feel like I'm in Montana all of a sudden. What else? Miengo. Miengo. What else?

Miengo. Miengo. Any other Montananisms? No. Montana is a pretty standard American accent. The one thing we do say, but I don't say it, but there are people in Montana that say gooms instead of gums. But I don't do that.

Meaning what? Like the gums in your mouth gooms gooms yes goo really really that is a re if if you're saying that there are very few regional pronunciations but one of them is gooms for gums. That's quite an outlier. How could you explain that? I can't. It's fading away. Not too many people say it anymore, but some of the older Montanans or some of the people that grew up in more rural areas,

they'll still say gooms. Is that a leftover from some ethnic population? No clue. Could be. No clue. Could be. No clue. We also say Hanyakers. Hanyakers for greenhorns. But that's not a pronunciation of, that's not a different pronunciation of greenhorn.

That's a different word. Yeah, exactly. Hanyaker. So what language is that derived from? I think it's Hungarian. You understand you're speaking for all of Montana now. I do understand. I can pretty much guarantee you

all of Montana is listening. I think it's Hungarian, but I'm not sure. All right. So much for your heritage. You shall never be welcome in montagna again all right i think i've heard everything i need to hear i'm going to go into my chambre and take a few moments to arrange my thoughts and then i will be uh i will regress our immediate Mediamente. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Ty, is this honestly about you wanting to be cute or you wanting to be respectful of how other cultures pronounce their languages?

I want to be respectful. I work at a college where we have a lot of international students and a lot of immigrants, and I spend a lot of my day trying to figure out how to pronounce their names. And again, I mangle them a lot, but I always try to be as respectful as possible when pronouncing their names. Do you believe that to be the case, Doug? No, I don't. Ty is a pedantic person. You know, he is, he's very smart, but he's constantly correcting me and my language and grammar. And I think when he pronounces these words,

it's in a very show-offy way to say, oh, I'm doing it right, you're doing it wrong. This is how it's actually pronounced. I don't think it's out of respect for the language. I think his motivation is coming from a very selfish place. Do you really pronounce femme fatale as farm fatale i actually do do that yes you sound like a real jerk right you guys you guys both understand that there's no agreed upon pronunciation of the famous Greek mystery meat sandwich,

the gyro, gyro, gyro, gyro. I believe the correct pronunciation is gyro. Yes. But the other thing is the way Ty pronounces it, he also makes it a point, not that like this is his interpretation, but this is the right way. if I say gyro he's like it's gyro

when you say these words do you at the same time raise one eyebrow I do I do and then I turn away from him I show him my back Doug how do you think your chances are in this case away from him. I show him my back. Doug, how do you think your chances are in this case? I think they're pretty good.

You seem confident. How about you, Ty? Yeah, I think Doug's doing pretty well. Well, we'll find out in just a minute. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back with judge john hodgman's decision hello i'm your judge john hodgman the judge john hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you our members of course thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites.

If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh, boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations and delivered with conversation-based

teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world and you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyper-academic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners. Right now, get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now.

Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really?

What's an example? The braised short ribs. They're made-in, made-in. The Rohan duck. Made-in, made-in. Riders of Rohan. Duck! What about the Heritage Pork Shop?

You got it. Made-in, made-in. Made-in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district

in restaurant town? Just buy it online. This is professional grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more

is a valuable and enriching experience, One you have no choice but to embrace. Because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I.

Hmm. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will.

Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman reenters the courtroom. So, Ty, I was listening through the Japanese screen that separates me from you as I sit here, as I sat there in my chambre.

And I heard Doug say that he did think you were trying to be cute. And you clearly are trying to be cute. Your argument about being respectful is undermined by the fact that you spent a lot of time saying, Miengo! It is completely apparent to me that you enjoy drawing attention to yourself by saying things differently from others around you, even when there is an undisputable pronunciation. I think you can say mungo, though. But let's set that aside. Set that aside.

Your argument for being respectful is a powerful one, even though it is, in your case, disingenuous. Because, and I think faux-feu really ties a beuh on it, on this particular issue. Because this is a new word that is entering the English language. There is no consensus on how it will be spoken, as I realized when I was yelled at by Josh Sadu so many times in CETL. And yet, and what consensus is forming, I think in my own anecdotal experience, is coalescing around foe, which we know is inaccurate. Why it's encoded in the very name itself, foe. And so what does one do in such a situation?

such a situation. I honestly, as we went through word by word, the issues that, or the words that Doug has, takes issue with, found myself at odds with both of you at different times. And indeed, I don't know that a hard and fast line can be drawn between pronouncing things the typical way versus pronouncing things the way autentico, because even you acknowledge that you're not sure how to pronounce the authentic pronunciation of that delicious, delicious soup. And so therefore, you're constantly on a continuum between correct pronunciation and common usage, the desire to be respectful versus the desire to be understood. And if anything, I would imagine that it happens on a case-by-case basis. And so I'm going to do something for the first time here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm

actually going to rule by points. This will be a judgment on points, not on a knockout. by points this will be a judgment on points not on a knockout so let's just go down the list uh doug you say foe ty you say fur i'm sorry josh sato i gotta go with foe on this one i think that's what people are gonna say i'm gonna get people gonna mad but i think dang it i think most people most people in america stupidly uh understand that soup as foe and in time as that soup becomes more and more prevalent as it will because it is one of the best soups in the world there will be there will be a second wave of snobs and pet ants like you ty who will come around pronouncing it fur and when we get fur on the food, then it'll be pho. But for now, it's pho. That one goes to Doug. For the Greek sandwich, Ty, you said something terrible.

What was it? Gyro? Gyro? I said gyro. Gyro. Yes. Gyro. Gyro.

And what did you say? I said gyro. Gyro is incorrect. Yes. Gyro is really hyper-correct, hyper-correct. But I certainly have heard enough, typically gentlemen working in a Greek restaurant or a place where they will serve a gyro, saying gyro or gyro.

Gyro is what I said when I was a child. That one goes to Ty. Doug, you said sart. doug you said sart uh ty you said sart just simply saying sart at all earns you pretentious points trying to outdo someone on the pronunciation of it makes you a loathsome creature that one goes to doug carnitas versus what did you say, Ty? Carnitas. And that's how your aunt said it? My mom.

Your mom or your mom's family said carnitas because she is Latina in some way, of some heritage. She is. Mexican. Mexican? Yes. I got to give that to Ty. You grew up that way. It's an honor of your people. Papardelle has never been said in my hearing ever before in my life. That's crazy. Papardelle is what

it is. That one goes to Ty. Sacre bleu. Doug, you said... Sacre bleu. No, you didn't say sacre bleu. What did he say, Ty? He said sacre bleu. Sacre bleu? Sacre bleu.

Sacre bleu. I remember saying sacre bleu. Sacra blue. Sacra blue? Sacra blue? Sacra blue. I remember saying sacra blue. What was that? That was your take on it, Jesse? Yeah. That's your memory? All right. That one goes to Ty, even though the way he said blue really grossed me out.

Sacra blue is wrong. Tamales versus tamales tamale is both a food a food stuff and a word which is obviously a corruption of the correct spanish tamales but tamale has been in in the language uh and adopted by lots and lots of different uh non-hispanic cultures um you know the the uh there is a long tradition of African-Americans in the South making tamales in classic soul food restaurants, and those would be called tamales. I would accept tamale, but again, because of your alleged Mexican background, Ty, I will accept tamales as well. That one goes to Ty. Cologne, Germany. First of all, Iper versus Hyper. No one should ever say Iper unless they are in Spain or in a Latin American country.

That one goes to Doug. Cologne. You say cologne, Doug, like the fragrance. You say, what did you say? Cologne. Cologne. Cologne. Did you say cone cone? I, that one's, that one's a wash.

Cause, cause obviously that's the correct pronunciation, but no one's going to know. No, one's going to know what you're talking about. Unless you say clone Germany, right? Yeah. Right.

Uh, and that would just make you sound extra incredibly pretentious. I'm going to give, I'm going to, if you're in America talking about a foreign city, you wouldn't say Paris. You would say Paris. We'll go with Cologne. That one goes to Doug.

Goethe. Goethe. That was a wash. Femme. Femme. Femme. Violent femmes, I think, have to be the standard for American pronunciation of femme. So I'm going to give that one to Doug.

You're now tied five and five. Acapulco, Acapulco, you said the same way. Puerto Vallarta, Puerto Vallarta. You guys are old enough to have seen the love boat, so you both know how to pronounce that. That's a wash. Doug, you said homage, and that is beyond wrong.

Homage is correct. That one goes to tie. Fort versus forte. Fort, as an English pronunciation of forte, meaning strong in Latin and the Latin languages, or frerzo in Italian. Fort, as an English pronunciation, is long-standing in our language. I didn't pick up the OED, but if I did, I bet you it goes back to dinosaur time. So that one goes to Doug. Bonafides versus bona fides. Bonafides is common English pronunciation of that particular phrase. Bona fides, I don't think people would understand what you were talking about. That one goes to Doug. And then we get into other ones. Ayers Rock, Uluru, that's not a

pronunciation issue. That is a gringo versus Aboriginal pronunciation issue. And given the crimes that were visited upon the Aboriginal people of Australia, it's hard not to respect saying Uluru or Ayers Rock, but I think they're both Denali versus Mount McKinley. I've got to say that they're both interchangeable. This is not a pronunciation issue. They're irrelevant. I appreciate your desire to be sensitive, and I think that it's a a good move and it's certainly a commendable and and not offensive one but uh but uh it's not to the thing so i have um six points for ty and seven points for Doug. Yes, ma'am. And that means I have to find

in Doug's favor. Oh my gosh. In so far, and I think that the math really does speak to the issue here. There are some in there that I totally am with you. You're either pronouncing the word according to your own heritage,

or you're pronouncing the word that is in a way that is not merely more traditional, but more correctly understood, even in English language. I think more people will say homage than homage, although I bet I'll get some letters. And in a way that is not offensive or attention-getting. But when you go klun, or when you go fam, or when you go sap, you are asking for it. So on those words that I found in Doug's favor,

fo, sart, sacro, no, hyper, klun, fem. Oh, wait a minute wait a minute i missed one guys doug oh in the french word for party is what doug um i sayrect. Fet is correct. Okay, it's a tie. All right. Wow.

A last-minute tie. Here's what I'm going to say, though. Tie. It's a tie for tie. Say bona fides, fort, cologne, hyper, sart, faux. All of those pronunciations are, as of this moment, acceptable and should not be corrected, nor should you go out of your way to make a big stink out of saying something different at the Bonafide's restaurant or whatever.

But because you tied it up, I have to therefore order, I have to therefore order. I have to therefore find on the side of free will and every person's right to embarrass themselves at a restaurant by being a pet aunt and say that I find in Ty's favor, though I, though I order him to seriously reconsider the pronunciation of those words that I pointed out.

Bonafides, femme, sartre, faux, and hyper in particular. Just take it easy, all right? Don't be a show-off. This is the sound of a gavel. Mango. Mango. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. How do you feel, Doug?

You know, I feel pretty good. I mean, I figured the judge would lean towards personal liberty. But I think hearing this from Judge John Hodgman, he'll be a little more or a little less show-offy with his language in the future. I'm just glad I don't have to say homage. Yeah, I don't think that that's a real one, guys. That is. He actually says homage.

I know he says that, but he also says fate for Fett. He really does do that. That's why he gets my goat. That's why I have to correct him. It just digs at me. Yeah, those two, you have a right. You need to bring, basically what we're trying to establish here is consensus and understandability. And that is a rule of thumb. If people don't understand

what you're saying, or you're going against what is the consensus, no matter how corrupt the consensus may be, then I think you have to check yourself. And I'm spelling check with a Q-U-E there. I think that's a good rule of thumb. All right. Jesse, did you have any other questions you wanted to ask these guys before I butted in? No. Thank you, Judge Hodgman. Doug, Ty, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Merci beaucoup. Thanks a lot. Thanks. Well, Judge Hodgman, quite the fate you're having back here. Yeah, I thought I would just have a good old Prosecco and chicken cordon bleu personal fate. I'm wearing my fate hat. Sure. I'm wearing my fate hat.

Sure. The only kind of fate we have back where I come from in San Francisco is once in a while, the local volunteer fire department will have a big spaghetti dinner. Yeah, and I like to dress my spaghetti with the delicious bahanmai sandwich of Saigon. We have a queso on the docket. Or Saigon, as they pronounce it in Saigon, Pennsylvania. We have a case on the docket. Would you like to clear it out?

I would like to hear the docket right away. Amber writes, I live in Tyler, Texas, and I bought tickets for me and my husband without his knowledge to see They Might Be Giants in Austin on October 22nd the show's midweek and will require us to take two days off work my husband vetoes this idea

we live four and a half hours away from dallas and just took a day off to see depeche mode what's the big deal okay so we did see they might be giants in march but they might not tour again for a few years what if they retire then i'll never see them live again. My husband asks, what about our jobs? Well, what about our jobs? I'm a second grade teacher and he's a discipline specialist at a middle school. Taking two days off is no big deal. I think he just doesn't want to stand up during the show. Judge Hodgman, should we go to the show or sell the tickets? Well, I have to confess that I'm prejudiced because my wife is a high school teacher here in New York City. And for that reason is constantly saying there is no way she can go on any trips that might require her to take a day off.

such as the wonderfully recently completed boat party known as the Atlantic Ocean Festival of Comedy and Music where I enjoyed your company, Jesse. And I yours. Or the forthcoming Jonathan Colton Cruise or any kind of boat party of any kind. And so therefore my initial reaction is no, you cannot take a day off. You're teachers.

You cannot be blowing off school. Think of the example you were setting for yourants concert. With regard to the discipline cases, the hard cases that your husband is dealing with, not only is it a bad example to set that he's going to go and blow off school to go see a concert. That's exactly the opposite of the kind of self-discipline he's hoping to inspire and monitor in these students. But also to blow off two days of school to go see They Might Be Giants. While they are one of my favorite bands, to be sure, that's going to seem dramatically uncool to your kids in school. And therefore, he's going to lose authority and lose power over the kids. And it's going to be class of 1984 all over again. So I say this. Teachers, don't blow off school to go see concerts. Sorry.

You've got an important job to do. Those kids need you. They might be giants, don't need you. Go buy 10 copies of their records. That'll be a good thing to do. As I understand it, you've received some correspondence. Yes. You know, it was one of my great delights over the summer to first see and then engage

with using social media and internet the man we know as Fresh Banana Man, of the southbound Kennebunk Rest Plaza on Route 95, the main turnpike in Kennebunk, Maine. His name is Jonathan, and we've stayed in touch since I first sung his praises at selling bananas with the clarion call of, fresh bananas here! selling bananas with the clarion call of fresh bananas here. And he wrote me this letter. And I encouraged some of you to go and take pictures of him, which I later realized was probably a ill thought out thing to do that might scare another human being or make him feel menaced or get him fired. But luckily, that didn't happen. And a few photos came in and I shared some of them with you on the blog at MaximumFun.org. But then some of you started writing and saying, where is he? I've been going to the southbound rest plaza at Kennebunk over and over again, and he's not there. Well, let me tell

you something, everybody. He was on a belated honeymoon with his wife. And he sent me this letter from the road. Hello. I have, during the course of my travels, visited a couple of airports and rest areas out of morbid curiosity. I wanted to see how many of these places had some influence from my home company. I also wanted to see how they sold their fresh bananas. Sad, sad day. Not only did I see fresh bananas, but I also saw no innovative methods to procure their sale to a visiting patron. What will it take to bring the travel experience around in such a way that people engage customers in the sale of fresh bananas? I did, however, see a young man trying to encourage people to eat at his restaurant,

which I will now discreetly mention has the word Fridays in the title. See, even he knows no buzz marketing. He was rather impressive in his methods, but utterly doomed because he wasn't quite fresh in his approach. It was the old-timey method of hawking with no personal flair. It almost smacked of a company-induced method, stale and oppressive. I did, however, go to a fresh farm stand. They were selling items, and there was a sense of genuine care about their products. They got a kick out of the fact that I sell fresh bananas, so I bought two farm fresh peaches. Man, were they good. Sincerely, Jonathan, the fresh banana man.

I will continue to share letters and stories from him as they trickle in, but I believe that he's back at work now, and if you want to buy some fresh bananas, I can't recommend a banana salesman more highly. He is obviously very dedicated. Now, it turns out that Jonathan has a Twitter account, which he has authorized me to mention, which is Fresh Bananas Hia. That's F-R-E-S-H, Bananas, H-E-A, Fresh Bananas Hia where you can go and he's listing some of the things that customers say to him after he says Fresh Bananas Here. And then you can also see the video that he has recorded of himself saying Fresh Bananas Here. And you will probably want to buy some bananas.

Thanks, Jonathan, for staying in touch. That's all I've got on my docket, Judge Hodgman. It's been a pleasure to judge with you, as always. Always a pleasure to judge with you as well. May I just say one thing? Since I've already indulged in a certain measure of buzz marketing for myself, may I just mention, Jesse, that Bill Corbett, the great Bill Corbett of Mystery Science Theater 3000 and Riff Trax, and I will be appearing the Cedar Cultural Center in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Friday, 4 October, Englert Theater in Iowa City, Iowa. And Saturday, 5 October, Barrymore Theater, Madison, Wisconsin. All the details are on johnhodgman.com. You can also find out at johnhodgman.com how you can do the Hodgman Triathlon.

If any one person, and I'm hoping there will be just one, or maybe at least one, goes to all three of those shows, guess what? You can come backstage and hang out with Bill and me. You get some of our leftover green room hummus. I'll give you a prize of some kind, and the Madison show is on me. So please, why don't you come out and see us and see all of our and my upcoming appearances on johnhodgman.com slash tour. And hey, I'm actually going to be in Southern California with my public radio show, Bullseye, live at KPCC on October 25th. So if you want to come see me and Saturday Night Live's Bill Hader and my friend comedian Jasper Redd and lots of other cool folks, get your tickets now. It's already mostly sold out.

There's only a few seats left. So go to kpcc.org slash forum or follow the link from the homepage of MaximumFun.org and grab your tickets. It's Bullseye Live October 25th in Pasadena. I shall look forward to that and to the next time we speak. And our thanks for this week's title to Michael Davidson Jr. Thanks, Michael. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org.

Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com.

You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at forum.maximumfund.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximumfund.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned.

Listener supported.