Judge John Hodgman - Live From London 2023

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

This week's episode was recorded LIVE from the London Podcast Festival! First up is "Undergrounds for Dismissal." Mae likes to ride the bus. Paul likes to ride the tube. Then we hear from Tim and Belle about whether or not Belle can call herself a vegetarian if she eats an occasional steak. Finally, a case about "the best sandwich." Who's right? Who's wrong? With guests Benjamin Partridge (Beef & Dairy Network) and Emma-Lee Moss (fka Emmy the Great)! Thanks to reddit user u/mkbecker for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com!Judge John Hodgman’s Van Freaks Roadshow has begun! Visit vanfreaksroadshow.com for ticket links, other dates, cities, and more information! And SUBMIT YOUR CASES along the tour route at maximumfun.org/jjho!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. It's me, Governor, your Judge John Hodgman. This week's episode was recorded live in London at the London Podcast Festival. It was our second stop in our Van Freaks Roadshow tour, which is revving back up October 9th in Lexington, Kentucky. Visit vanfreaksroadshow.com for the rest of our dates and cities and to buy tickets and to submit your disputes, vanfreaksroadshow.com. Now let's go to the stage at King's Place for some live justice at the London Podcast Festival. London, you've come to us desperate for justice, and we are here live at the London Podcast Festival to deliver it. live at the London Podcast Festival to deliver it.

Let's bring out our first set of litigants. Please welcome to the stage May and Paul. Our case? Undergrounds for dismissal. When May and Paul go out together, May prefers to take the bus. She likes to take her time and see the city. But Paul hates the bus.

He says the tube is quicker and more reliable. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference. Rattle big black bones in the danger zone. There's a rumbling groan down below.

There's a big black town. It's the place I've found. Judge John Hodgman is in London town. They're alive. They're awake. While the rest of the world is asleep. Below the mineshaft roads, it will all unfold. John John Hodgman is in London town. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, you may swear them in.

The role you were born to play. May Paul please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he travels only by rigid airship? I do. I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Semi-rigid these days, I'm afraid. We all get older. May and Paul, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment. In one of your favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I arose from my slumber to speak to you here in London? May, do you want to take a guess? I think I know it, but I can't think of it.

So I'm going to definitely look back and regret it. No, you'll regret nothing. Okay. Is it a Nick Cave song? Is it a Nick Cave song? That's a very good guess. I like it. I like the guess.

This is an artist with a very specific vocal style. I know, I know. And Nick Cave is not that, but that's fine. I think you're in the ballpark, though. Yes, what about you, Paul? I wasn't really sure, but maybe like a Tim Burton something. Tim Burton, sort of a haunted carnival feel, is also in the same neighborhood.

Judge Hodgeman. Did you have a guess, Jesse? I did. Yeah. Tone Loke? Tone Loke. That's exactly right. It is Funky Cold Medina by Tone Loke

as covered by Tom Waits. All guesses are wrong. It was Tom Waits' song from his album Swordfish Trombones, specifically called Underground, because that is what we were talking about here today, the London Underground, and also the London Double Above Ground, which is what we call a bus,

or a loo here in London. Exactly so. So who comes to seek justice in this fake court? I do. And you are Mae, correct? What is the nature of the justice you seek? So yeah, Paul and I live in central London when we go out and about together. I thought I detected a central London

accent. Born and bred. When we go out together I prefer to take the bus. It's more enjoyable. You prefer to take the bus when you go out and about. And Paul, how do you respond? So I am actually from London and when we go out I prefer to take the tube

because I like to get to places. What line is your favourite line? Probably the Victoria line, because that's my nearest one. And there's trains every minute, minute and a half, and they just turn up. And they just go. And they go. I understand.

Let the record reflect that when you said Victoria line, someone went, woo! Are there favourite lines? Are there favorite lines? Are there good lines? Oh, yes, yes. What's the best line? The District 4th line. Ah!

Did someone say the District line? Oh, my God. Someone said the District line? I also know what that means. May, when did you first take a London bus? It must have been when you were coming home from the hospital here in England. Yeah, exactly. No, I moved here ten years ago.

I did a semester abroad even before that, so it must have been 2010 I took my first bus. Your first bus, and what did it feel like when you were taking it? Was it love at first bus? Yes. Yeah, no, it was great. I think, see, growing up in the U.S., which is where I'm from. Where did you actually grow up, if I may ask?

I moved around a lot as a child. I grew up in the Midwest region. Lots of different places in the suburbs, so no public transport. No public transportation. No. So growing up watching movies and TV shows, seeing that double-decker iconic red bus. Iconic.

Arriving to London, just being like, whoa, it's real. Right. Riding that bus, especially the night bus, specifically. Everyone loves the night bus. I also spent a semester of college here in London on a drink-abroad program of my own devising. And I remember loving the night bus. So reliable.

And also, the people you meet on the night bus. Just the loveliest. You might get some free food thrown at you or regurgitated at you. It's like you're a little bird in a nest. Someone's trying to feed you some curry and ale. Yeah, exactly. From their stomachs.

That's great. And so the majesty and the romance of the night bus really won you over. Yes. And Paul, why is May wrong? She's wrong about buses because they're really slow and they don't turn up very often. And a very London bus is probably the best buses in the country.

In all of England, do you mean? Or Britain. Or probably anywhere. Oh, okay. They might be the best in the world. Probably the best in the world? But they just are slow and they don't turn up and they don't get you there in the time you want to get there. You are a Londoner.

Yeah. How did you two meet? Online. Really? Yeah. And how long ago did you meet? Online. Really? Yeah. And how long ago did you meet? Nine years ago. So you had moved here already. Yeah. You did not move to be with Paul. No. No. Wonderful.

Sounds like you're still deciding. Yeah, yeah. In the process. Yeah, alright. Paul, you're a Londoner. Yeah. Would you think most Londoners would agree with you that the buses suck? Yeah, I think they would. Buses suck. Boo. All right. Who here loves buses?

Who here hates buses? Oh, more bus lovers in the crowd. This is not going to be decided by a jury. Okay. Fair. Now you submitted some evidence to the court, photographic evidence. Could you see that? It's always great for a podcast to have photographic evidence. What's the first piece of evidence, please? Oh, Jesse, you've got the clicker. Look at that. That is a view from my second favorite bus route. Right. So what we're looking at, for those of you listening at home,

are four empty seats on the top decker of a double-decker bus. There is a lonely empty can of Red Bull rolling around in one of them. And just behind in the distance, you can see just a bit of the arc of the London Super Wheel, and then obviously beautiful HP Tower right there, HP Sauce Tower right there behind it. It is truly a lovely scene. So tell me, why is this your favorite bus route?

It's my second favorite bus route. Oh, excuse me. Yeah. It's the 341 that's going over Waterloo Bridge back up to my house in Angel. Yes. And yeah, it's a good route because it gets you to Waterloo and you don't have to take the tube to Waterloo when you need to get there.

And you get this lovely view. The 341 bus? Yeah, the 341. Does that mean that there are at least 341 different routes, Paul? No, I don't think so. Well, why? Why is it the 341? Oh, I read a whole book about it once, but I can't remember.

You read a whole book about it? Yeah, there can't remember. You read a whole book about it? Yeah, there's a whole... Well, because they used to be run by separate companies. Oh, I see. And every company would have their own... Had its own numbering system. Yeah, exactly. That's right.

And so why make it easy for anyone to get around? Yeah, exactly. You have to decipher a code, right? That's right. It's like the Enigma code. You figure out where you're going. I'm talking from experience. I tried to take the bus yesterday.

I'll tell you about it later. Yes, please. I still don't the bus yesterday. I'll tell you about it later. Yes, please. I still don't know what happened. What bus was it? I ended up, not at my destination, but I ended up sometime yesterday. It does happen. Yeah. But in any case, it was very nice.

Paul, did you want to say something? No, apart from this bus just takes ages. If you want to get to Waterloo and you're going there for a train, you have to leave really early or else you're going to miss your train. Is it hard to get to Waterloo? From our flat, this bus actually is quite convenient. It's just slow. What about to escape if you wanted to?

Yeah. Jesse, we're not holograms. Paul, do you work at home? Do you have to commute, either of you? I'm mixed. I work from home and commute, either of you? I'm mixed. I work from home and commute. Right, okay. And Meg?

I'm fully remote. You're fully remote. So you don't ever have to be anywhere you don't want to be. No. And I can usually take my time, you know, watch the world go by. How did you get here tonight? We walked. Oh.

That's good. I'm glad that you agreed to walk everywhere until I decided what you will do for the 50th. I think we do agree That's good. I'm glad that you agreed to walk everywhere until I decided what you will do for the future. I think we do agree that walking is the best, but if it's too long to walk, then we disagree. Then you have to choose something else, obviously. Yeah, exactly. What's the next slide that you brought? Oh.

Look. That's Rupert Giles, our pup. You know, you could have picked just one of those names and it would be perfectly adorable English and twee, but you had to add both. Yeah, it's Rupert Giles. What kind of dog is Rupert Giles? He's a schnauzer, poodle, cock, or spaniel.

Yeah, and wouldn't you agree, Mae, that he looks terrified being brought into a hole? Yes. Yeah, he does. Yes, that's why. Oh, you agree as well, Paul? Yeah, sometimes you just have to do it. Are you allowed to bring dogs into the subway?

Of course. Of course? That's not self-evident. How else do you get anywhere with a dog? Subways are for people. But any pet can go onto the subway at any time? I don't know, actually. Dogs are allowed. Dogs are definitely allowed.

Anything in a cradle thing. Right. Can dogs ride the subway without people? I've never seen it happen. What if they have to get to Waterloo? There's videos all the time of pigeons jumping onto the tube, riding at a stop or two, and then jumping off, which, yeah, I mean, animals can do what they want.

We ever see a cat on a leash in there? Yes, thank you. I love seeing that. What about a guy with an iguana on in there? Yes? Thank you. What about a guy with an iguana on his shoulder? Haven't seen that. I love seeing a cat on a leash. It's just so humiliating to them. Next slide, please. Oh, Paul, here you are.

You're so happy next to your Lego London Underground map. This is at the London Transport Museum out here. No. It's at the TFL. It's at the TFL Depot. It's at the TFL Depot. The Transport for London Depot where they store

all their Legos and Lego maps. And who submitted this piece of evidence? I submitted it because I wanted to be nice Because look at how happy he is He's very happy Do you have an affection for the underground beyond just

Its functionality and getting places? I like trains in general, I think they're cool You like choo-choo trains? Yeah, absolutely Modern trains are great, but choo-choo trains are fantastic as well What about funiculars? What about gondolas? Yeah, I've got no problem,

no thoughts really anyway of a gondola. Jesse, if you had to get rid of all subway trains or all funiculars, what would you do? God, that's hard. I love riding the subway in Los Angeles, but I love riding Angel's Flight, Los Angeles' most famous funicular. Of the many famous funiculars of Los Angeles.

I've ridden that, and it's quite fun. It's really great. However, it now occurs to me, without the subway, I couldn't get to Angel's Flight, so I'm going to stick with the subway. All right. The Los Angeles subway is saved. Good job. Good choice.

And with it, my family's trips to the Central Library. Paul, what do you like about the trains so much? What's the appeal? So more for trains than the tube. When you're on a train and you know you're going to get somewhere in time if it's working, you just can sit out and stare out the window. Obviously it doesn't work on tubes so much. But yeah, I just like

so on trains that, on tubes, it's more just you know how long a journey is going to take. So you know what time you have to leave and you don't have to guess how long a bus is going to take to get through traffic. And also tracks. Yes. It can't just take a left. Yeah, absolutely. It's going to go to that station. They're going to go where

they're going to go. Could skip a station. Terrifying possibility. Could skip a station, but it's going to at least go to that station. They're going to go where they're going to go. Could skip a station. Terrifying possibility. Could skip a station. But it's going to at least go through the station. Buses may go anywhere. I mean, you're at the whim of the driver. That's kind of part of the magic, right? Well, what if the driver wakes up one morning and takes a bunch of psychedelic mushrooms

and decides to go rogue? And then suddenly you're five blocks from where you were supposed to be. The worst possible outcome. I thought you were going to say, and suddenly dogs are allowed to ride this subway. But you like the predictability of trains. Is that not right, Paul? Yeah, absolutely.

You just know how long it's going to take and when they're going to turn up. Has the train ever let you down, Paul? All the time. Oh! But much less frequently than a bus would let me down. What was the worst train situation you ever had? I spent an hour just sat in a tube train in a tunnel.

Right. When they break down, you just... Underground. Yeah. Unable to get out. Or text anyone. Or text or communicate with anyone. Yeah.

Just breathing human farts. Some of them are mine, though, so it's fine. No, no, I Yeah. Just breathing human farts. Yeah. Some of them are mine, though, so it's fine. No, no, I understand. Some of them are dogs. May, has the bus ever let you down catastrophically? Yeah, I have to admit. What was the worst situation that ever happened?

There was, well, actually, it's based off of a tube letdown. There was a tube strike a few years ago. So everyone was on the buses and the traffic was really bad because everyone was driving as well. And I got stuck on the number 8 bus. 3952.9? No, this was the number 8 bus right outside

St. Paul's Cathedral. And we were just sat there for probably a good hour. But with a bus, you can jump off. You can get out. Yes. You can escape. But you didn't. You just sat there But you didn't. I didn't. You took it. You could have just got off and walked and been home in an hour. It was on my way to work, so I wasn't really in a hurry.

And why was it stopped? Mechanical error? No, it was just traffic jams. Oh, yeah. I was going to say, what is the difference between a bus that is stopped in traffic and a bus that is operating normally? Zero difference. Some of them zoom real fast. Some of them zoom fast.

Yeah. Well, would you have any claustrophobia, Mae? normally. Zero difference. Some of them zoom real fast. Some of them zoom fast. Would you have any claustrophobia, Mae? Is this an anti-tube thing? Yeah, it's partially anti-tube, partially pro-bus. I feel, especially during rush hour, very closed in on a full tube train.

When you're kind of in a nook of someone's armpit for an hour. Yeah, you probably shouldn't be in there. No. Not without consent. Yeah, I agree. It's tough. Paul, do you have a similar reaction to buses?

You know, like a sense of anxiety? A bit sometimes. It depends on them. Like, as you were saying earlier, it's like the later ones just get quite sketchy. Yeah. Yeah. But you don't have my fear that when you're on a bus, the bus driver will just go rogue and take

you anywhere. Or maybe you're now thinking about it for the first time. They do take random routes quite often. They're not random. You can look them up online beforehand. They don't really tell you. They'll just be like, oh, something's broken down over there, so we're going to go like that.

Has this ever negatively affected your life when you've been on the bus and you've ended up missing an appointment or something similar? Well, I like turning up on time and if we're meeting some friends or something, I don't want to be the late person. Has that happened a lot?

All the time. Oh, I see. If we take the buses, yeah. Yeah. Would you say, what would be the rate of being late to meet a friend when you take the bus? 100% of the time? I'd say What would be the rate of being late to meet a friend when you take the bus? 100% of the time?

I'd say 75% of the time. May, do you disagree? That's probably right. But it's never catastrophically late. It's like 10 minutes. Oh, very continental of you. Exactly. Is part of this that you don't leave enough time to get there on the bus? Yes, for sure. We could give

ourselves a lot more time and we could get there on the bus? Yes, for sure. We could give ourselves a lot more time and we could get there via the bus. We both operate on a just-on-time basis. Like Walmart? Yeah, like Walmart. If we take the train, you know what you're going to do and when you're going to get there.

Everyone has a preference, but what would you have me rule? May I fire a rule in your favor? No tubes ever? I think to be fair, tubes have a place. But just when... I appreciate your fairness. Yeah, I don't think they should all be destroyed.

Tubes have a place. Yes. But I think we should only take the tube if we have to get somewhere for a show or a gig where they might actually close the doors. So if we were late, it would be catastrophic. but meeting friends wouldn't fit that it's fine all how do you feel when you're late meeting friends and is it only 10 minutes or is that uh 10 minutes plus uh i just feel guilty like why am i making my friends hang around for me because i'm when you know you're late do you feel like i'm with text i'm like i'm gonna be sort of anything over two minutes late and i'm like uh sorry i'm running late text person well yeah sure, do you feel it? I'm with text. I'm like, I'm going to be sort of anything over two minutes late,

and I'm like, sorry, I'm running late, text person. Well, yeah, sure. But do you feel it physically when you're running late? Yeah. Yeah, right. Not a fun feeling for you. No. What do you feel?

Just like guilty, you know, all-encompassing guilt. How is that different from being English? That might be the problem, yeah. What would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor, Paul? I'd like... No more buses ever? Fill them all with sand? Every now and then, the bus is okay.

I'd like tubes to be the primary option. That's your first choice, and buses are fullback. Right. Write a first refusal for tubes. Yeah, that's right. But when do we then not use the tube? Where do we draw the line? If we're going to Hackney.

Buses are for Hackney only? Yeah, that sounds right. I couldn't agree more and know what that means. Do we have any more evidence? Yeah, let's see. Let's take a look up here at a little more evidence. Dogs are allowed on buses too? No, that's a train. Let's take a look up here at a little more evidence. Oh. Dogs are allowed on buses, too? No, that's a train.

That's a train. That's a train. But that's not a... Is that a... That's like a mainline train. A mainline train. Somebody's mainlining on this train? What's his name?

Rupert Giles. St. John Fife or whatever? Seems very happy there. Yeah, he's happy there. On a mainline train. Because he's not underground. Because he's not underground. Because he's not underground. You think he can sense that he's going down deep into a tube full of people.

100%. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, totally. That's me on a bus. Look how happy I am in this one. What is the steering wheel? So part of the reason I love buses is because if you go on the top deck and you sit in the front, you can pretend you're driving. Right, of course.

And on this bus, randomly, this was in Jersey, and we went on the top deck, went to the front, and there was a steering wheel just waiting. Oh, there's a fake steering wheel for children. For everyone. It didn't have a sign or anything. I thought that that was something that you brought with you on every bus. It's a good idea. Which is not a terrible idea if you enjoy it. Love it. All right, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I am going to descend into my underground lair to make my decision. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Paul, how do you feel about your chances tonight? I think it went pretty well, yeah. I feel like a good chance. I think he listened to my arguments and gave me a sympathetic

review. Did you see that that timer that was ticking down in front of you turned red? Yeah, I did. I was very impressed about how he drove us through the times. How do you feel, though, because it's red now? Well, I've seen red means that I've won. Do you want to send some texts?

This isn't my party, so you can be as late as you want, I think. May, how are you feeling? I'm not feeling great, to be honest. Are dogs allowed on buses? Of course. Why do we live in America? That's a great question.

Dogs are everywhere. There is a reason she's here. That's one of the reasons. That's the number one reason, is the dogs on transport. Well, Paul, Nate, we'll find out what Judge John Hodgman has to say when we come back in just a moment. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh, boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made

In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example?

The braised short ribs. They're made-in, made-in. The Rohan duck. Made-in, made-in. Riders of Rohan, duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made-in, made-in.

Made-in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town? Just buy it online.

This is professional-grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning,

the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep. That's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10 minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world and you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyper-academic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound.

Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. I'm getting too old for that bit. So I have been visiting your country for a long time. My mother was an Anglophile, and she would come up with reasons that we would have to visit.

The first time I ever came to London and the first time I ever encountered the Underground was when I was about 11 years old. I know that I was 11 years old because when we came over, I had a head cold and I got sick and I had to stay in bed for a couple of days during our visit. And my father brought me a comic book and it was the June 1983 edition of The Legion of Superheroes. And I said to my dad, Father, a DC comic? Really?

You know me not at all. And I tore it up in his face. No. He was doing his best. And I like Legion of Superheroes. But the first time I ever saw the tube, I remember thinking to myself, maybe even saying out loud, Oh my God, they really did it. It's a f***ing tube.

It doesn't have to be a tube. You know? I grew up in Boston, Massachusetts. We have a subway. It's a f***ing tube. It doesn't have to be a tube. You know, I grew up in Boston, Massachusetts. We have a subway. It's a hallway. It's a square, rectangular hallway. It doesn't have to be a tube like something that a rodent dug. Do you know? And not only that, it's a tube within a tube.

The trains are tubes, too. That's just too... I mean, the branding's impeccable. But I mean, the branding's impeccable. But I mean, if you really want the experience of being deep underground and running through a tube as though you are running away from danger, like the rabbits in Watership Down, but there's nowhere to go because the men have plugged up all the holes

and they're sending poison down the holes. That's what riding the tube is like. And I'm not normally claustrophobic, but it's just the fact that it's curved and you're like, really a tube. Not all of them, but some of them. By contrast, I mentioned before I took the bus yesterday and it was terrible. I was walking along a road, a main road, and I happened to have a little oyster card in my pocket because I'm an international traveler. And a bus came along. I'm like, this will relieve me of my walk. I was

starting to feel a little bit tired. I'm too old to be jumping up and down behind a podium all the time. So I get onto this bus and I'm looking at my phone, which is tracking its progress because I figure, okay, probably a popular mapping application will be able to tell me which route I'm on. And I saw all the routes of the bus, and this bus was on none of them. This bus was on no route whatsoever. And it was going down a major road, and then it took a left, no, excuse me, a right, its route just to go on its own. My worst possible fear finally come true. It was just doing its own thing. And I

got off that bus very fast. And I hobbled back up to the main road to wait for a different bus. And then I looked at the signage, you know, on the post to explain to you what to do. And there were 5,000 numbers there. And none of it was

comprehensible to me so I decided okay I think I've got this figured out I think I'm going to get on I think it was a 38 bus that's my number one bus that's your number one bus the best bus well that sorry to swear but I would ask you please to ring them up and explain that a foreign visitor was excited to ride the number 38 bus as were many other people locals who needed to go to a place the bus, number 38 bus, came along

slowed down to a stop the driver looked at all of us and then went, no. And then just kept... No possible explanation for it other than spite. The bus wasn't full and people just were very upset

about it. And that's when I gave up on the bus after that. Can you explain why that happened? They might not have liked the look of you. It's not just me. I mean, that I would accept. You, as the plural of the group, potentially. Oh, all of us.

They could have thought you might have started something. No, it was in the middle of the afternoon. This wasn't a night bus. We were all just trying to... I don't know. Does that happen? The bus just will not stop? Yes.

And what reason, Paul? Only when it's full. Sometimes it's full. Sometimes the driver's just annoying. It does seem to me that the bus is a little less predictable. But that's known. I mean, really, what should be happening here is, you know, people like what they like.

You're going to go meet friends. You take the bus. You take the tube. And you'll get there first. And then you'll look late. And no one will care. But then you don't get to enjoy the company of each other, right?

Can you enjoy each other's company on your hated form of transportation? I think so. Yeah. Alright. Well, you can never ride together again. I'm really stuck here because I don't know what possible standing you would have, Paul, to order May to never take the bus again. I think that May's solution is reasonable.

If you are trying to make a concert or a movie or a restaurant reservation, and May, if you're meeting friends, you have to take the tube. If you're going for a fantastical joyride through the magical city of London with no real destination and no need to get anywhere, and really riding is kind of optional too

because it might just be sitting and looking, then absolutely take the bus. But if you're traveling together and you have to hit a time period, then I do think that you have to go ahead and take the tube. Paul, I rule in your favor. I hope that you'll enjoy it. But Paul, your friends don't care if you're late.

That's something you can do. You can do some deep breathing exercises, exercise some distress tolerance. Do you know what I mean? They don't really care. Just a reminder, no one's really thinking about you as much as you are thinking about yourself. They're all thinking about themselves.

It's very rare that you're actually making someone uncomfortable because you're late. But that said, I don't think that you deserve to feel uncomfortable while you're going to a place and therefore I rule in favor of the deep, dark tunnel that is the tube. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. May and Paul, thank you for joining us tube. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Thank you.

May and Paul, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Judge Hodgman really was excited. Like, the first thing that John said when we got to London was, and I'm not making this up, I'm excited to ride the bus. I really wanted... I was really... I this up, I'm excited to ride the bus. I was really, I mean, I truly was excited to ride the bus.

I actually like riding the tube. And there's one thing that Paul forgot to point out, is that unlike the bus, the tube has stations. Stuff's happening in those stations. There's some busking going on. And urination. Other things are happening in the stations. But I was really excited to ride the bus, but the bus

sure did cure me of that. That was a terrible experience. I gotta tell ya, I immediately talked smack about how I prefer the subway, and guess what I went out and did immediately thereafter? Yeah, that's right. I got up on the top floor of a double-decker right in the front window and enjoyed

a long ride to East London. Did you pretend to steer and go pew, pew, pew, like you're firing lasers? Well, there wasn't a children's steering wheel there, so no. Jesse, last time we were here, we had a very special musical guest come and sing for us, and it was so wonderful, and I've missed her so much, and I'm happy to say that we're very lucky because it's going to happen again. That's right. Introduce our guest. Yeah, last time she was here performing under the name of Emmy the Great, but while she remains great, she is also many other things,

a singer, songwriter, essayist, and the author of a forthcoming book, One Person Playing Two Roles, a Canto Pop Memoir. Please welcome to the stage Emily Moss. Emily Moss to the stage, if you please. Hi, hi. Thank you so much. I love the name of your dog. This song is called Flower Market. love the name of your dog um this song is called flower market it's um the it's a new song it's for a music project i haven't done anything with so it's a secret um but yeah it's called flower market um and i wrote it after finding a voice note of um my mom walking through a flower market criticizing beautiful flowers. Thanks. I'll find a wild acre in this light

Put my head down and set in roots See tassel will soon grow shoots In my wild acre I'll find a wild acre where there's light Moving all round the trees at night one for nothing when the fruit grows ripe in my

wild acre marigold, dandelion lavender rose and hyacinth and ivy, stinging net, artichoke, wild thistle Moon-colored buffalo in my mind I'll leave you out in that sweet green rice, babe When you're distant, tide In your wildest girl Muy far, lan far

Lin far, tou far Muy hin far, le yan far Kung fatah Mo hin fa lo yan fa kong fa ta You took me to the flower market So we could pick up some spring branches Blossoming through me alive We will not pay for price for a glorified bucket Get into the car, your heart's full, We're going home And I don't even think

I don't even think There's a correlation here But the seasons come around They come around They are returning And this one, this one is my favorite Moon-colored buffalo in my mind Meet me at a nice sweet green rice

Your mother's voice Your mother's voice is calling you Calling you, you, you, you, you, you, you Your mother's voice In your wild acre And you're what it could Thank you. Thank you. Emily Moss, everyone. Hey, Emma.

Emily Moss, everyone. Hey, Emma. Thank you for being here with us. So you're in the midst of an artistic transition. Oh, that's a nice way of putting it. Yeah, exactly. You have ended the project that was known as Emmy the Great. Yeah, I did a final gig, which was really nice. It was like a ritual kind of

thing. I feel like I should talk into the mic because I had extensive. So I have my back to you. I'm sorry. Why don't you come around this way and you can speak into that microphone just for a moment. Okay. And so you had a ritual in which you did you burn yourself an effigy?

So my bandmates said that we should get a cardboard cut out of me and run it over with a car. But we didn't have the budget. Oh, no. So I just did 12 songs. Fair enough. Yeah.

And what prompted the change? Well, I wanted to do it like a long time ago. I thought I would wrap it up after a certain point and start something new because I was playing a lot of really old songs from when I was 19 years old. And just some of the references had gone out of date. I didn't feel the same way. I often updated the song lyrics.

Right. But then it was just like, you know, that thing where you're cutting the broom? It's like an Only Fools and Horses thing, and you're just like, what am I working with here? So, yeah. Sure. Oh, I know about that. I know all about that.

I also know all about that. I've seen it loads, but I only know that one. Victoria line. Yeah. I like the district line. Wow. Just to back that person up. I mean, I don't love it.

Are you team tube or Team Bus? I was, we were sitting back there and we were discussing every single line. So we didn't hear everything, but we thought that your ruling was kind. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry. Believe me,

when we get to Mob Justice, I'm going to be much meaner. It's going to be much more exciting. It's going to be an absolute bloodbath. We're going to be taking every single one of these audience members, making a cardboard version of them, and running them over with a justice bar. Yeah, the printing is happening as we speak. We scanned you all as you came in.

It's going to be traumatic. I'm sorry. I think you guys are going to be nice to everyone. You're probably right. Sorry. The fact is, you were and are great, but you, the fact is you, you were and are great, but I really admire when someone realizes like, oh, I'm in a different time as an artist and it's time to mark that somehow. Yeah, it felt really good. I mean, I didn't, after the pandemic, um, I'm sorry, the what? Yeah, I didn't want to say it. I didn't want to be the

first person to say it. so i sat still for a really long time and you know i just couldn't let go so i actually carried on for another two years because i was like i really need to hold on to these old songs yeah and then it got to the point where i could actually feel like the old me knocking about inside just being like you need to move on so and so you are and you have this book coming out i am writing it and definitely fingers crossed it will come out when i've written it um i historically that is the order in which it happens so that's good news i have to write it and what is it about um it's about um i my life in hong kong i have lived some of my life in hong kong um and

i have listened to music there yeah that i haven't listened to publicly here so it's about like decompartmentalization and the music of like fandom and the music of hong kong canto pop canto pop which i'm not familiar with the genre. Well, you've got to read my book. No, I'll send you a playlist. Well, when you finish it, maybe it'll be published. Exactly. I will walk to the store and give money for it.

No. You will get a small portion of it. I will leave it on my bedside table and be like, why am I not reading that? Why am I just reading Am I the Asshole on Reddit again tonight? I will send you a PDF. That's very Reddit again tonight? I will send you a PDF That's very kind Thank you very much

It's the music of Hong Kong It's sung in Cantonese Some of the stars are like Fei Wang Well you'll learn when you all read the book People usually know Is there anything else since you have the ear of literally tens of Judge John Hodgman fans Well, you'll learn when you all read the book. People usually know. Some people usually know. Is there anything else since you have the ear of literally tens of Judge John Hodgman fans

that you'd like people to know about or about this new phase in your life or a website to go to or a social media account or anything? My website just says Emmy the Great is a former project. Every now and then I get worried letters from people being like, what's happened? Yeah, no, I just... You all sound great. The laughter is really getting across on the feed in there.

We usually don't give them notes until a little bit of the program. I appreciate that. Yeah, no, thank you for having me. Thank you. Will you come back a little bit of the program. I appreciate that. Yeah, no, thank you for having me. Thank you. Will you come back a little later maybe and sing something? For sure. Okay, good. Emily Moss, everyone.

Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney

is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there?

Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O.

Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Jesse, we talk about the airing and quashing of beefs. Does that phrase track? Do people have beefs with each other in the UK? Is that a term that you understand for dispute?

Yes? No? Yes? Okay, good. Because we have more beefs to settle, including a beef that has something to do with beef. And I feel like we need an expert to help us with this. Yeah, I agree, Judge Hodgman. Luckily, the two of us happen to know an actual expert on the subject of beef who lives right here in the United Kingdom.

He's the creator of the Beef and Dairy Network, one of the funniest podcasts in any genre, no matter what meat it concerns. It will be recording live tomorrow here at the London Podcast Festival, but we're lucky to have him here with us right now. Please welcome our expert witness, Benjamin Partridge. Benjamin Partridge to the stage, please. Hello. Mr. Benjamin Partridge, the stage, please.

Hello. Mr. Benjamin Partridge, thank you for being here. Before we hear this beef beef, can you tell us a little bit more about beef so that we have all the information we need to hear the case properly? Yeah, for sure. Let's start with an easy one. Have you guys heard of a beef?

It's coming through pretty well on the monitors backstage. Yeah. It's carrying. That's a worrying level of beef awareness. But I have got a little PowerPoint that will help some of these people out with... During our show?

Well, this is like a section within your show which kind of becomes my show. It's like Diplomatic Waters or, you know, an embassy. Okay, I mean, I assume that we would have to, like... We can't... Oh. Oh, he set it up already. Here we go. He hacked into our system, it would seem.

So, um... Yes. I'm aware you're not here to see my podcast, but I just thought there's a few facts I'd like to get across to people before you can really get into these cases you've got coming up. Yes, I appreciate that. First fact to take away with you, if you learn nothing else from me this evening, it is that in the dictionary, the plural of beef is beeves. There it is. So there we go. It's a disturbing word on its own.

And somehow when it's pixelated that way, it becomes nauseating. But also a great name for a baby. Beefs? Yeah, if anyone here is expecting. Now, I don't know how much people are aware here of how almost any meat in the universe can be categorized into four categories.

And really, there are only actually four meats. No, I think... I've heard... Never mind. So, are you aware of this? categories and really there were only actually four meats no i've heard never mind so um are you aware of this i always thought that i think there are more than four meats no no so okay let's explain so in the early 1900s um there started to be more and more meats discovered so you've got um venison for example right Right. What do you do with that? From a tax perspective, it was a problem. Okay. And this was a sort of newsletter that came out back at the time.

It was called the Livestock and Meat Situation. And by 1950, this problem of how to tax different meats became an actual problem for tax, like the IRS in America and the HRC here. And that's the only two tax bodies that I know about. But there are. You'll have one if you come from another country. And they needed

to know how to tax all these different kinds of meats. Should there be one tax rate for all meats? That seems mad. So what they did was they came up with a sort of an idea where all meats could be put into three categories. So it was either beef, lamb or chicken. OK, then, of course, if you know your history in the 70s, there was another edition of this where they realized that really pork is a meat. Really pork is a meat.

That had been controversial for some time. Yeah, they didn't know what to do with it. And they thought, no, no, no, pork's its own thing. Things were changing. Mary Tyler Moore show, et is a meat. That had been controversial for some time. Yeah, they didn't know what to do with it, and they thought, no, no, no, pork's its own thing. Things were changing, Mary Tyler Moore show, et cetera. Exactly so, yeah. Exactly. Right. And so all meats you can think of

can be fitted into this taxonomy of meat. So, for example, venison goes in beef. That is, of course, forest beef. Rabbit, hedgerow, pork meat. Goat, mountain lamb. Goose, violent chicken. Pheasant, posh chicken. Quail, weird chicken.

Now, I know what some of the sharper ones amongst you are thinking. Ben, what about fish? Right, what about fish? Hey, Ben, what about fish? Here we go. Now, this is a live issue, and I've got to say there's no consensus really on how this works. Let's do this all together.

On three, Ben. Ben, what about fish? One, two, three. Ben, what about fish? One, two, three. Ben, what about fish? Well, I'm glad you asked. Now, there's no consensus about this, but if we look at what scientists in general are coming to, you can plot most fish onto this.

So, for example, in America, you have a tuna called chicken of the sea. So you'd think then that, obviously, tuna goes into chicken Wrong! You get tuna steaks It's beef Then obviously salmon is pork Prawns are lamb

Once you get into it Wait, it starts coming naturally Why is it obvious that salmon is pork? Sorry? Why is it obvious that salmon is pork? Oh, it's right there Oh, sorry, I didn't see that. I was looking somewhere else. Sorry, it

seems the judge isn't getting the feel of it. It's a feel thing. It's a vibe thing. Salmon vibes pork. Can I just say, the vibes are pristine. If you threw a salmon at a grizzly bear, it would catch it in his mouth. If you threw a pig at a grizzly bear, it would catch it in its mouth. If you threw a pig at a grizzly bear, similar thing. That's a great point, Ben.

I presume this has been tested. Now, final bit of knowledge for you. Could there ever be a fifth meat? Well, no. I couldn't. I don't know about that. I mean, back in 1975, we thought there were only three meats. Now we all agree that...

There's no fifth meat. There's no fifth meat. But... No. Eel. No. Eel. Eel.

Smoked eel. Eel. So eel is a kind of aquatic snake, and a snake is a rope of chicken. Iguana. Iguana. I don't actually know that one. iguana I don't actually know that one I guess let's think about it again it's a feel thing I think it's pork

if you threw it at a bear if you threw it at a bear the problem with the if you threw it at the bear thing is like lots of stuff it would go a similar way. Lots of stuff becomes pork in that way. Oh, I thought the problem was throwing the llama. Llama?

Oh, I thought it was the llama that's pork. No, iguana is what I said. Oh, iguana. Sometimes they eat. I'd throw that at a bear. Get out of here, iguana. Look, I'd throw anything at a bear. All right, well, I'll keep thinking about this fifth meat.

There's no such thing as a fifth meet. I think there has to be a fifth meet. No, John. We have a case. All right. Thank you very much, Benjamin Partridge, for your presentation. My pleasure. I find this very troubling, but you are the expert after all,

and I believe that we have a beef beef to hear right now. So, Jesse, could you invite the litigants to the stage? Please welcome to the stage Tim and Belle. Tim and Belle, please come to the stage. Tim is a hospice chaplain. He used to have a podcast called God or Whatever, and Jesse was a guest on it one time. He's a vegetarian.

Belle is a graphic designer and is He's a vegetarian. Bell is a graphic designer and is currently not a vegetarian. Interesting. So, Tim and Bell, what is the podcast that you had or have? It was a podcast I did in lockdown, because we all did podcasts in lockdown, right? No, no, some of us did it before lockdown.

Well, that's fair. Some of us were actually doing it professionally for some time before it was decided that everyone should do it. And there was a little bit of IP theft involved because I called it God or whatever. Oh, yeah, I noticed. Wait a minute. Hold on.

Why did you start a podcast during lockdown? You're not an actor who's much more famous than we are. But my ego says I am. No, but you called it God or whatever, which is a reference to the way we swear people in. Exactly. And the way I see reality. And that's very nice.

And you interviewed Jesse. I did, yeah. That's good. I didn't get an email from you. You didn't reply. Is that so? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I messaged you both on Instagram.

Oh, yeah, I don't check that very often. And the podcast is done now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well messaged you both on Instagram. Oh, yeah, I don't check that very often. And the podcast is done now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm not available anyway. So, Belle, you say you are not a vegetarian currently, but it says here that you want to be. Is that correct? Yep, that's right.

But it also says that you would like to make one exception to your vegetarianism. Is that correct? And what would that exception be? Steak. Ah. You want to be a vegetarian, but you want to eat steak. Yeah.

Beef. Yeah. How often would you eat beef? How many beeves would you have in a year? Like, is this a once-a-year thing on your birthday? Probably about as much as I do now, which is once every couple of weeks or so. Okay.

How do you respond to that, Tim? What is your opinion on that? I mean, it's never been an issue that Belle eats meat, but if you eat steak, you're not a vegetarian. You can eat meat, but you can't be a vegetarian who eats steak it's not a vegetarian maybe you didn't hear

she's a vegetarian but she eats steak well she isn't so I got a text from Belle she'd been at a festival in her friend Martin's garden called Martfest. And she got drunk and decided to be a vegetarian. Ah. But still wants to eat steak, but wants the glory of being a vegetarian. Wait, she was an omnivore who got drunk and decided to not eat meat?

It's 100% supposed to be the other way around. Describe your conversion experience such as it is. Well, a lot of my friends... First of all, what was the festival that you were trying to buzz market that you were at? I missed it. It's not a real festival. It was their friend Martin's Festival Mar-Fest.

Yeah. It's just his birthday party. How often does Mar-Fest happen? Annually. Annually? Yeah. Yeah. Was it like his birthday party. How often does Marfest happen? Annually. Annually? Yeah. Was it like Burning Man this year? Did you get rained on and stuck in the mud?

Elon Musk was there. Musk made it to Marfest. Very good. So you were at Marfest. What's going on at Marfest exactly? It's just a barbecue. All right. Most of the people there are vegetarians or vegans.

Uh-huh. So every year... What's being barbecued then? Well, there's a few meat eaters there, but it becomes a bit of a discussion every year. And you got a little bit tipsy. Yeah. What were you drinking? Just this.

White Claw. You were drinking White Claw. Oh, yeah. White Claw, yeah. Oh. You can't... I'm a teetotaler except for White Claw. Yeah, white claw, yeah. Oh. I'm a teetotaler except for white claw. So you had a few too many claws. Yeah.

And what moved you to become a vegetarian? And what does it mean to you to become a vegetarian if you are still eating steak? Leave the steak thing aside. What will change? Well, for me I think I care about the environmental impact of eating meat so that would be my motivation for it. But steak's delicious

so I don't want to give that up. But you will give up otherwise how often, how much meat, I often, like, how much meat? I'll ask Tim. How much meat does she eat? It's a fair amount. Would this be a major lifestyle?

Even if she were to... Yeah. This would be a fairly big lifestyle change, even if she kept steak in the... Totally. It would be a big lifestyle change. And to be clear, I would really support it, but you just couldn't be called a vegetarian.

That's all. You eat less meat. I'm really up for it, but you can't have the label of vegetarian, in my opinion. What would be a great label? What's your relationship? We're boyfriend and girlfriend. Boyfriend and girlfriend, so you get to tell her what she eats and how she describes herself.

No. What would be the appropriate label for a steak-itarian? Just like not normal. A low-meat-itarian? Yeah. Some people say flexitarian, but they're wankers. He's a hospital chaplain.

Hospice, hospice now. Hospice, holy cow. That's different. They don't mind we all know they're assholes yeah thank you and Partridge do you have an opinion on this

as an expert on beef and meat in general I guess like I don't have a problem with vegetarians because they're some of the few people you can rely on not to be eating lamb but you know what are you giving up pate Wednesdays

like I want to get a better sense of what you're giving up actually because it sounds like some of the favourite foods that you would be giving up chicken wings, lamb kebabs yeah McDonald's, Wendy's there's so many good meats you know what I'm with you. Tim, you should eat meat.

This is backfired. Is there a way, Benjamin Partridge, to classify steak as some kind of meaty vegetable? Yeah. Cows are vegetarians. Say it again?

Cows are vegetarians. Cows are vegetarians. Say it again? Cows are vegetarians. Cows are vegetarians. So by extension... Hang on a second. I really think Belle is on to something here. I'm a vegetarian. I follow the vegetarian diet

because I only eat vegetarians. This is pretty good, Tim, you have to admit. I'm not happy about it. I'm not happy about it. Why does it matter to you what she calls herself, Tim? It's stolen valor. Earlier, Tim, you used the phrase, i think the phrase was the glory of vegetarians that's not a thing i don't think that's a thing no that's a thing it's in the bible

it's in the back somewhere what do the define the glory of vegetarianism for you tim and well you i mean you're right. There is no glory. That was probably the wrong word. But, like, it's a sacrifice, right? Like, I used to like meat, and then I became a vegetarian, and it was a hard choice that I made. I mean, I feel like I'm really, like,

blowing my own trumpet. But, yeah. Yeah. It's a choice. It's a sacrifice. And how long have you been a vegetarian? Like 10 years. All right.

Yeah. Well trumpet-blown, Tim. Good job. Thanks very much. Tim? Is long have you been a vegetarian? Like 10 years. All right. Yeah. Well trumpet blown, Tim. Good job. Thanks very much. Tim? Is there something you wanted to say? Tim's a hypocrite. Whoa.

Yes. I'll allow it. He asked me not to bring this up. I can't believe you're doing this. He once ate a dog. On the subway. That eats meat. A meat-eating dog on the subway.

Tim is a consumer of cod liver oil. Because I have arthritis. It's a medical condition. I have to take it. I'm not happy about it. She's got anemia, haven't you? Yes, actually I do. Well, wait a minute not happy about it. She's got anemia, haven't you? Yes, actually I do.

Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. You take cod liver oil. Yes. Not for pleasure. I hate it. It's horrible. I know, but I mean, I don't know. Can you even categorize that as meat?

Or would that not be a kind of fifth meat, Benjamin Parker? Where would that fit into your little rubric? Cod liver oil, if you will. No, that's a secretion. That's a whole different thing. All right, Tim, then you are merely a secretist. And as for you, Bell, I have to say that there is no particular glory. Well, I'm not going to say that it is, there is no particular glory, well, I'm not gonna say that, it's wonderful being a vegetarian. Being a vegetarian is a very thoughtful way to live. It's not for me.

But I admire those who do eat a vegetarian and a vegan diet and so forth, and good for you, Tim. Enjoy your glory and your secretionism. Thank you. And, but Bell, I just, I'm caught between two points here. Tim. Enjoy your glory and your secretionism. But, Belle, I'm caught between two points here. On the one hand, Belle

would be lying. On the other hand, I don't like Tim saying that Belle can't be whatever she wants to be. So I'm going to say this. I really like your solution, Bell, that you only eat vegetarian animals. So now lamb is open to you?

Goats? Basically all of them. She can't eat wolf. I think you should say, I don't eat meat except for vegetarian animals and also vegetarians are possible. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all. Tim and Belle. Let's welcome to the stage Tim and Tamlin.

Tim and Tamlin are now coming to the stage. Thank you for Tim and Bill. Now, you come to us from Vancouver, British Columbia. Is that so? That is so. Look at the incredible mic skills on all of these litigants tonight. Let me tell you something. We've toured all over the world and nowhere but London do people know.

Take the microphone and shove it right in your mouth. So good job. Nah, it's too much, Tim. Tamlyn, it says in your complaint that 10 years ago you made the greatest sandwich ever, but Tim refused to eat it. That's correct, yes. Yes.

And this has gone on for 10 years. Upwards of 10 years. Upwards of 10 years. Upwards of 10 years. Yes. Take me back to the day 10 years ago. And as we discussed, don't reveal the ingredients of the sandwich. Right. That's going to be an incredible surprise for the audience.

It was an ordinary day. It was an ordinary day in Vancouver, British Columbia. A little bit rainy. Yes, very ordinary. And we were having lunch. This was before we had children, so we were independent adults making our own lunches for ourselves. Tim had made his lunch.

He had finished it. I made the best sandwich I've ever made I took a bite and just was overcome and I said oh Tim like you have to try this sandwich it's the best sandwich ever and he responded with I got a good mouthfeel and then refused I've got a good mouthfeel yeah I had got a good mouthfeel. I had a really good mouthfeel. Don't keep saying it like it means something. You refused to eat the sandwich

because you already had, and I quote, a good mouthfeel. Explain what you're talking about. A really good mouthfeel. Yeah, I have preferences around textures, and I used to be a very picky eater. I see. So, you know, I really couldn't, nothing mushy, it just wouldn't work for me.

Was this a mushy sandwich? No, absolutely not. Like the record show, not a mushy sandwich. Go ahead, Tim. I guess I don't know the answer if it was or not. But I had just eaten, I wish I could recall, but it was something that probably had texture, probably a lot of crunch, something soft,

and it was good. There was probably some butter in it, and it just left me with a really nice feel in my mouth. Probably. But I was in harmonious bliss. I was in a good state. You didn't want to introduce anything that would disturb your already existing good mouthfeel.

Mouthfeel, thank you. And so it was just like, you know, just like a little saliva-y, but a little extra, I don't know, you don't remember what you ate, right? A little aftertaste of mayonnaise or something. Absolutely. That's what I call a good mouthfeel. And since then, have you ever tried to make the sandwich again?

I have. I think that the issue was really on that day. The stars aligned. All of the ratios were perfect. The crunchiness of the lettuce. I mean. I happen to have the sandwich here. Made to your specifications.

And Tim, I'm going to taste this sandwich. You say this is the most delicious sandwich ever? It was the most delicious sandwich ever. And Tim's refusal to eat the sandwich was very disappointing to me. How does that make you feel? This was 13 years ago. And it lives on.

The argument lives on. And the nickname she's given me is a batty, catty, scaredy mouth because I wouldn't eat the sandwich. Because he had a scaredy mouth. A little scaredy mouth. Batty, catty, scaredy mouth Tim. Catalyst for bad things whose mouth fears new flavors effectively.

Oh sure, no I know the dictionary definition. Sorry. Catalyst for bad things who avoids new flavors. Is this a problem in your life otherwise? It was. I've grown tremendously, I think. I think there, yes.

What sort of things was Tim avoiding? Obviously, mushy. Yeah, well, I think that it was sort of a general fear of anything that wasn't sort of... Oh, sorry. Excuse me. Sorry, go on. Very much a steak man. So he'd want a steak...

A vegetarian, you mean. Yeah. I see. Yeah. I see. Yeah. What sort of foods are you averse to? Nothing now. Was there any intervention? Did you seek any therapy?

No, I mean, you know, people have food aversions that they have to work through. I'm not trying to get a sense of how serious it was. Tamlin's family eats a wonderfully diverse array of foods, and eventually, just through enough exposure, I grew. I was willing to experience new things,

and now I'll kind of eat anything. Can you give an example of a thing that you didn't want to have, and then you tried, and now you enjoy it? There's an eggplant dish that you can get at Dim Sum that looks really mushy and goopy,

but when you actually bite it, it is mushy, but it's got all these other it's wonderful oh shrimps oh it's lovely yeah and i and now it's a favorite does it have a name i know i don't it does it does it was a yes or no question and yet you have never tried this sandwich in 13 years. You've never tried to make it for him again? Well, I was fearful of his scaredy mouth. I didn't want to be rejected again. Right. You've already been burned once by this non-mushy sandwich.

All right. I'm going to give it a try. I'd love to hear what you think about the sandwich. Wouldn't you guys love to hear about it? I mean, if there's one thing people who listen to podcasts love, it's people eating on microphones. John, what's in the sandwich? Well, hang on. Let me see

if I can detect it first. So it's on a ciabatta roll. So it's on a ciabatta roll. I made it to your specifications. So there's mustard. Yes. There's hummus. Yes.

Which was interesting. And by the way, mushy. Just to be fair to Tim. Thank you. Hang on. You want to get in on this, Tim. Thank you. Hang on. You want to get in on this, Tim? Yeah, I really do. Do you want me to go to the back end or can I bite where you bit? What do you want? I'll go to the back end.

This is more than I expected. Me too. Want a bite? There's mature cheddar. You want some? Yeah. Wow. Well, I can tell you how closely you approximate it. Do we remember which side we're eating from?

No. Okay. Go middle. Okay, yeah, I'll go middle. We're back at it, folks. Civilization. We've learned nothing. No, I just, I'm going to keep, I want you both to live.

There was a time when I was going, Tamlyn should bring the sandwich in herself. And then I realized, no, no, I would like to live. I don't know who this person is. I don't know what kind of mushrooms you're going to slip into this sandwich. Roofie me with your delicious sandwich. It's pretty good. There's pickle, mature cheddar, crispy lettuce.

That lettuce is a little wilty. Wow. Tamlyn, did you see what happened already here? Tim already ate it. You got your way. Oh, did I win? Well, was that a trick? You didn't have to eat the sandwich.

Yay! But I don't think, obviously you're not catty, catty, daddy, maddy, waddy. Yeah, you got it. Daddy, maddy, scaredy mouth. Baddy, catty, daddy, maddy Yeah, you got it. Batty, catty, scaredy mouth. Batty, catty, scaredy mouth anymore. You can't call them that anymore. So in that sense, you win. And in this sense, you win too

because you got them to taste the sandwich and you got me to taste it too. But I still have to decide if this is the most delicious sandwich. And I gotta tell you, there's something I've determined is in here. I don't know what this is. It's, let's see, it's, oh, it's something called turkey? Turkey. I feel like it's like a fifth kind of meat. No, no. Well, isn't just turkey. You didn't just have

turkey up there. Benjamin Partridge, you didn't have turkey on your thing. Turkey is simply robust chicken. No, wait. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Because we have an expert here. So far,

would you say this is the greatest sandwich ever? It's a very good sandwich, Tim. And, Tim, you are wrong to not eat it. I like it very much, but I've got to be honest with you. It's not the most delicious sandwich. Here's my question. Ben, we're

lucky enough to have you here. Is there anything we could do to take this sandwich from a very good sandwich to the best sandwich ever. Jesse. Judge John. Yes. Litigants. It's our old friend beef.

Do you want a sausage from my pocket? Are those rich beef sausages? Rich. Rich. Rich beef sausages. I'm so glad that you brought pocket sausage to the show. Yes, Jesse, will you make sure to handle it with all of your fingers too and put his pocket sausage into the sandwich

and I will eat a 50-50 chance I'll be eating Tim and Tamlin's saliva along with this. And you'll have to hold it for me, Jesse, because I've got the microphone. Better? That makes all the difference. It's incredible. Thank you very much, Tim and Tamlin. Thank you, Ben Partridge, host of the Beef and Dairy Network podcast, the funniest podcast in the world.

Thank you very much, everybody. broadcast in the world. Thank you very much, everybody. There's bailiff Jesse Thorne. I'm Judge John Hodgman. That's our show. Thank you so much for coming to London Podcast Festival. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. That's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman. This episode was recorded at King's Place in London for the London Podcast Festival. Our producers were Daniel Taylor and Jennifer Marmer. Marie Bardi Salinas runs our social media. Congratulations on your marriage. And don't miss us on tour in October and November.

Go to vanfreaksroadshow.com for tickets. And if you live in one of the cities we're visiting, send us your disputes. There's a link right there at vanfreaksroadshow.com. That's vanfreaksroadshow.com. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Blimey.