Judge John Hodgman - Live from Seattle

Episode Date: February 15, 2023

This week’s episode was recorded live in front of an audience at the Neptune Theater in Seattle! Our first case is PAUSE-ABLE DENIABILITY: Sam brings the case against his girlfriend, Angela. Angela and Sam used to watch a popular food-reaction video series together. One day, Sam discovered Angela watching a new episode without him. He says they had an unspoken agreement to always wait to watch new episodes together, but Angela says she did nothing wrong. PLUS: Swift Justice with Washington Supreme Court Justice Raquel Montoya-Lewis!Thanks to reddit user u/mkbecker for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm your Judge John Hodgman. This episode was recorded live at the Neptune Theater in Seattle, Washington. It was the second stop on our frontier justice tour of the West. So let's go to the stage at the Neptune Theater. Seattle, you've come to us desperate for justice, and we're here at the Neptune Theater to deliver it. Let's bring out our first set of litigants. Please welcome to the stage Sam and Angela. Tonight's case, plausible deniability. Sam brings the case

against his girlfriend, Angela. Angela and Sam used to watch a popular food reaction video series together. One day, Sam discovered Angela watching a new episode without him. He says they had an unspoken agreement

to always wait to watch new episodes together, but Angela says she did nothing wrong. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please welcome Judge John Hodgman as he enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference. I have a surprise for you.

It's a mouthful of spiders. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Sam, Angela, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God or whatever? We do. We do. Thank you for speaking for each other.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that when we were in Port Townsend last night, we made a local reference to The Spoon Man from the song Spoon Man by Soundgarden, and he was not familiar with the song Spoon Man by Soundgarden. We do. We do. We do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

I know, I know, but I certainly know what Detlef Schrempf is. Yeah. That's a small car in Holland. A hundred percent, that's a Joe Kee pitch. Angela and Sam, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can you name the piece of culture

that I quoted as I entered this courtroom? I'll repeat it for you because it was a little short. I have a surprise for you. It's a mouthful of spiders. Sam, what's your guess? Sounds like the Goonies. Sounds like the Goonies.

How dare you, Sam, make a reference to Cannon Beach in Washington State. You're all out of order. You're all out of order. Do my best. Angela, I do my best to get out of all these local references. I do my best. Angela all these local references. I do my best. Angela, what's your guess? Well, I was going to go even further

because I thought it sounded very whimsical like something by Roald Dahl. Roald Dahl. And that no connection to Washington State I can think of whatsoever. No. What could be more whimsical than a mouthful of spider? I'll give you another hint.

Here's another quote from the same person. I like Necco wafers because it reminds me of chewing on bones. Any last guesses? Yes? No? Maybe so? Is this one of Washington State's famous serial killers? Oh, sh... That's possible

I didn't think it would get more problematic than Roald Dahl But not far off in a certain way I've got a hint for them, please This is a very close friend of mine, daddies All guesses are wrong Let the record show they are out of guesses and out of words Oh, all guesses are wrong. Let the record show they're out of guesses and out of words. Of course, this case revolves around a YouTube channel that you like to watch.

Not long ago, it's actually about five weeks ago, I had the flu and then pneumonia and then gout and then COVID. And then I had my wisdom teeth taken out. And during this time, I too took refuge in YouTube, the comfort of a show called Good Mythical Morning, which I did not know at the time featured our friend and yours, Jordan Morris, as the benign cotton candy bearded demon known as Cotton Candy Randy. benign cotton candy bearded demon known as Cotton Candy Randy. He really lives in a liminal space

between benign and malign. Yeah, when I saw Jordan Morris wearing a cotton candy beard with cotton candy eyebrows saying that he was a demon from hell, I thought it was a fever dream. Turns out to be true. So since you could not guess that reference,

let's go on to the case. Who among the two of you comes here seeking justice? I'm seeking justice, your honor. And you would be Sam? I would be Sam. And what is the justice that you seek? So your honor, Angela and I, like a specific YouTuber, his name is Tim the Tap Man. He streams... How much did he pay you? Not enough. He didn't pay you to buzz market his... He did not.

Multi-million dollar making YouTube channel... He did not. ...on our podcast. It's all passion. You just love Tim the Tat tim love tad man love his content sam we know you're an influencer influencer and he has a video series where he he streams on youtube and he reacts to food tiktoks and it's very funny it's i don't have tiktok but it's just as crazy as you can imagine you know deep frying bacon twinkies and just the craziest things tim the tat man does this

he watches no he watches them it's as crazy as you can imagine yes a guy watching tiktoks so so talks. So, so naturally, so naturally, while we are eating dinner, we watch another person react to other people cooking. Right. And I presume you video yourself reacting to Tim and Kat. That's the next step. How do you even know that you're alive if you don't? And so we watched maybe 20, 25 episodes together consistently. Okay. Over 25 nights or one night? Over probably about a month and a half. Okay. So it was like a dinner date.

Yeah. Okay. And then what happened? One day you came home. Your Honor. You're welcome. it was a tough day for me. I finished work a little later than normal. Can I just say that you're America's greatest storyteller? I appreciate it. I'm really on the edge of your, I'm hanging on every word. So finished work a little late.

Angela's already kindly cooking dinner. And I say, Ang, there's a new video I'm so excited to watch with you. I'm feeling the excitement, too. You know what? I'm swept up right now in the power of love. Yeah. All love. And she looks at me and she goes, oh, I'm so sorry. I actually watched it earlier this afternoon.

Devastating. Devastating. You got cucked by the tat man. And I was in complete disbelief. My reaction at the time was I looked at her and just said, there's no way. How would I know that was your reaction if it was not filmed for me to watch later? And, you know, it was just, I guess you could say a miscommunication. Well, let me ask Angela.

You were watching this thing together with Sam. Why did you watch Tim the Tatman out of turn? Because we had already kind of set a precedent for me watching things out of turn because we also watch Great British Bake Off, which I think is much more serialized, and he is completely fine with it. More narrative. Yeah.

And, you know, every week someone else goes off, so there's actual spoilers. Hang on, let me ask the master storyteller. Would you say that it's more narrative? More serialized or more narrative? Is there a difference? You know, when you see the poor contestants leave the tent, it's tough. So you wouldn't want that spoiled.

Yeah. That's the only reality show where they actually came to make friends. So sad. So there's actual spoilers in that. And he's perfectly fine with me watching that ahead of time. And I assumed it would be very similar, because I already had his express permission to watch that. You felt that you had tacit permission to go ahead and watch it. Yeah, because something that I would be more bothered by watching ahead of, he was completely fine with me doing.

Okay. Angela, I didn't hear you in earlier on the moth. Yeah. I didn't hear you. I didn't hear you say, I'm excited to watch it with you. No spoilers. I heard the man of a thousand voices

characterize you that way. How would you characterize what you said? Oh, I've already seen that. I'm cool to watch it with you again. I was like, Oh, I've seen that,

but yeah, let's watch it together. I didn't, I did not think that one, I didn't, I think that it was like the most recent one because when I was, you know, timeline,

let's go back to like, and just in dismay, let's go back to when I was, you know, timeline. Let's go back. Let's go back to like. In dismay. Let's go back to when I was watching it. I was on my lunch break. Before we go back, if I may, Angela, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I'd like to get a sense of what this Tim the Tatman is all about. So I believe we have a clip of Tim the Tatman. Before we play it, how many of you are familiar with Tim the Tatman? Okay. Tough crowd. Tough crowd. By the way,

thank you to Tim the Tatman for coming to the show today. Let's take a look at Tim the Tatman in the style of Family Feud. Show at Tim the Tatman in the style of Family Feud. Show me Tim the Tatman. Let's do some cooking. I like this guy because he always makes a beat out of the sound.

Is that butter? Oh. Is that butter? Orange. What is that? Whoa! I don't know about that. I don't really like orange flavor that much. Sir, that's on fire. Okay, that presentation was lit.

Wow. So just so that I can clarify. We're dinosaurs. There are two... We're done. The real money is in identifying ingredients. For the audience at home, you will be able to see this clip and I guess you will now all be ardent subscribers. Go and smash that like button over at Tim the Tatman. What I saw were...

Hold on. Okay. We wish Tim the Tatman all the best as we do all the Tatmen. What I saw were two people people two guys in different windows one of them was making some crepes that looked very delicious and had edited the video so that it had a certain kind of rhythm to it as he was cooking which took work and then other guy... I'm just talking about it. The other guy was going, wow.

Which one of those two is Tim the Tap Man? The wow guy. The wow guy. Can I just say... Excuse me, Bill. Wow. Excuse me, you're right There is an art to it

Angela, I have here a piece of paper That I printed from the internet Reporting that Tim the Tatman Is estimated to make 1010 million a year. Can you verify this? I believe that's true. You believe that is true? You'll verify that?

Yeah. I could. I know he has a... Well, good night. Good night. I guess, wow? I just wanted to announce that this is the last episode of Judge John Hodgman.

From now, from now, our show is simply going to be me reacting to Jesse eating food. It will be fully miked, and it will be called Miso JJ Ho Phonia. Smash that subscribe and like button. Wow. I could see, though, why you would be willing to watch that again.

I mean, it bears repeated viewings. You learn more and more each viewing. It's sort of like a puzzle that you're unpacking. But hey, people like what they like. And you like this. I bet it's a lot of fun to watch. Because I bet you feel like Tim the Tapman's a lot of fun. He's your friend, right?

He feels like your friend? Okay, you can say yes. Yeah, I mean, what we really enjoy doing is being like, you know, are we reacting in the same way as he is? Or is he being really picky about something that we're not? So it all then comes onto this conversation that we both have about food and our likes and dislikes. And how did he not know that that was a crib?

Or like, yeah. So you have disputes with Tim the Tatman sometimes. Yeah. Could you bring him on this show so that... Can you get to him? I want to do good. Okay. Okay, so you watched this episode

and you offered to watch it again because you thought it was no big deal. And you thought it was no big deal because you had already been watching the british bake bake off great british baking show whatever whatever continent you're in and um and so what was your reaction to that the british bake off or the whole thing you just felt crushed um you didn't watch it again with her did you i did not when did you first submit this case? Um, about a year ago. A year ago. I have it here on a piece of paper printed that you submitted this case December 13,

2021. I also have it written here, you've not watched any more Tim the Tatman since then. That is correct. Why have you not watched more Tim the Tatman? I would like to respond to that first, Your Honor. Usually they do. So I have maintained this entire time that if the defendant were to apologize and say, hey, I made a mistake. You know, we were in this routine. It was our thing. We were watching together.

I'm sorry. I shouldn't have watched it. I would forgive her completely and move on like it never happened. However... Because that would be a caring and mature thing to do. Yes. And since she did not offer you that care and that maturity you've refused to watch your special show

ever since well out of pete she john you say that like you've never emotionally blackmailed your partner over a tiktok reactor she responded though and, I do not think I did anything wrong, but I'm sorry about the situation. Oh. Oh. That's not exactly what I said. Well, I mean, I kind of feel like it's interesting language. I mean, no, I mean, I think that that's, I'm not against that formulation necessarily. What did you, what's your recollection of what you actually said?

I was like, I apologize. I had no idea that this was going to bother you so much. I, going forward, will not do this again. It's not a big deal to me to have someone, you know, watch something ahead of me. But I understand that that is, you know, that is something that bothers you. So I'm sorry. I don't exactly feel the same way. So if you want to watch things ahead of me,

you have every choice and liberty to do so. But yeah, I'm sorry. Sam, have you ever watched something ahead of Angela? I have not. Is that true? I can't think... But the records show that the litigant is extremely proud of himself.

Yeah. Besides things that he's showing me for the first time that he wants me to see or listen to, no, I can't think of anything where he is watched ahead of me, which is why I communicated if you ever want to, it's not something that bothers me, and it's not

something I'm offended by. Angela's recounting of the way that she dealt with it sounded like a pretty good apology to me. Do you say that she is misrepresenting what she said? You know, with the live audience on stage, she's given it a little more

sincerity. She finessed it? A little bit. She sweetened it up a little bit? It was probably somewhere in the middle. We'll never know

exactly what she said because memory is a sieve and it's just a narrative of its own, if you will.

If I may say so, Master Storyteller. And also, and I apologize, children, you didn't f***ing record your reactions to each other. So that we would know. We would know now. I hope you learned something. Let me ask instead, since we won't know for sure, how did what she say make you feel? It was nice, but not as genuine as I was hoping for. Genuine, that's a strong word, because that would suggest that she's being insincere. Is that really what you're saying?

You're known as a person who chooses his words very carefully. I would say, I think over time, she has softened a bit. But at the time, she was like, I didn't do anything wrong. So I think you are maybe being too upset. You're overreacting. Did you say that Sam was overreacting? Yeah. I was like, this doesn't...

I did say it's an overreaction. But if you feel really strongly about it, I won't do it again. And how did being told you were overreacting make you feel, Sam? Not great. What would be your ideal ruling if I were to rule in your favor, Sam? My ideal ruling would be that the defendant apologize for watching that episode

and that I cannot wait to watch more episodes with her together in the future. Sentiment will play no part in this. We are justice bots. Moments ago, you were yelling at me about Oregon coastal geography. Don't think I'm going to listen to you. Angela, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor?

That we can watch them together again, because I really enjoyed it. Honestly, it was so much fun. Without saying anything further. I don't know. I just want to know if I was truly in the wrong for how I reacted and what I can do better next time. Because I did not think it was that big of a deal, but clearly it was.

And I don't want to hurt his feelings like that anymore. Would you say that Sam is still overreacting? I mean... He was very clearly hurt. I just don't want to, like, everyone is different, and everyone has different things that, you know, different weird lines in the sand that they don't want other people to cross, and part of what I've learned living with him for the last two and a half years is where those lines are.

This happened a year ago. And I think I was a little less aware of where those lines are. And now I know this is a line not to cross. And I crossed that line. You know what? You're right. She is insincere. sincere. I believe I've heard everything I need to in order to form my verdict. I'm going to step off the stage for a moment. I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

This is a very rich vein. Angela, how are you feeling right now about your chances? I don't know. Maybe I ask people to be a little tougher than they actually are, and that's not a good thing. How are you feeling, master monologist Spalding Gray? How are you feeling, Master Menologist Spalding Gray? I'm thinking it's a toss-up. 50-50.

Yeah, either she was a little mean to you, and you were right to destroy the thing you love. Out of spite. Well, we'll see what the judge has to say about this. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join, and you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel.

Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real-life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world, and you get to hear this sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyperacademic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time.

And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft.

And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're Made In, Made In. The Rohan duck, made in, made in. Riders of Rohan, duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made in, made in.

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But I think that it's obvious that Sam felt hurt. And more importantly, Sam felt that his feelings were not valid because you said you're overreacting, which he was. But the truth is people like what they like. And I know from being up at two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning with 101 fever and or debilitating chills that I really needed to see Cotton Candy Randy. I really needed to see Cotton Candy Randy. I really need to see Cotton Candy Randy drive Rhett and Link crazy. Let me say that a different way. I really need to see Cotton Candy Randy whisper sweet nothings into Rhett's ear

and then insult Link. This means something to me. I know what I'm talking about, and millions of others do. me. I know what I'm talking about and millions of others do. That feeling that you have when you are watching something like a YouTube video or a Twitch stream or listening to a podcast, it's an intimate relationship. You feel like you're visiting with a friend and it's healthy. Maximumfun.org slash join if you have a problem with parasocial podcast addiction please call

the truth is I actually think that there might be a qualitative difference between someone watching ahead in the great British baking off where you get attached to the characters who are not looking at you versus the person you spend time with who sometimes looks directly at you through the camera and talks directly to you and then sometimes looks at a video of someone else doing something and goes ah you know you had dinner with this guy many a time.

And I could almost imagine a situation in which, well, this goes too far, but it's like the three of you used to have dinner, and then one day Sam came home, and you're like, I had a great dinner with Tim the Tap Man myself. Is it overreacting? Sure. But the important thing is that you can understand why Sam felt hurt. And to say to someone, you're overreacting, invalidates their feelings. And I think you appreciate that.

Now, I think you probably appreciated it more than six months ago. Probably didn't need a year to figure this out. Now, I will not order you to apologize to Sam's liking, because that is weird. I think you have spoken very eloquently about how much you've come to understand Sam over the years that you've been together, indeed this year of Tim the Tatman-less existence,

where you've actually had to have dinner with each other. And I think that you apologized very sincerely and genuinely. I would remind you, Sam, that it is not appropriate to guess at the sincerity of someone else. All they can give you is their words, and I think the words were very meaningful. And when I said that you were obviously insincere, that was a joke, and I apologize. I hope you understand that.

So I am going to rule in Angela's favor because she has already provided the apology that you want, but you also win as a result. Now, because of this sick withholding of Tim the Tatman from your relationship for a year, I have to punish you both. You may start watching Tim the Tatman again. However, you may not go into the back catalog and watch what you missed.

It's not a story. It's not a story. It's not a story. There's no point in it. There's nothing to catch up on. Jim the Tat Man saw a person barbecue an elk or something. It happened. It's over. Also, don't listen from the beginning. The early episodes are kind of problematic.

Sorry, apologies. I also order for when you watched him, the tat man next, that you have to video yourselves watching him. So that we can post it on our YouTube channel and we'll split the money with you. It's going to be $5 million each, I promise you. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Sean Hodgman rules, that is all. Sam and Angela.

Sam and Angela. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. hello teachers and faculty this is janet varney i'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast the jv club with janet varney is part of the curriculum for the school year learning about the teenage years of such guests as allison brie vicki peterson john hodg, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. On the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah! We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Moving on now to a segment that we call Swift Justice.

We have some more justice to dispense, but we also, Jesse, have a very special guest to help us dispense that justice. Who is that person? Please welcome to the stage. Hang on. In this case, you should rise. Please rise. Please rise and welcome to the stage a real justice of the Washington State Supreme Court, Raquel Montoya Lewis. Well, thank you very much.

I mean, it's truly an honor to have you here. And will you help us dispense some justice in this Swift Justice segment? Absolutely, I will. Thank you very much. Judge Hodgman, despite the efforts of the Washington State Supreme Court, there is still a lot of injustice here in this state. But we've only got about 15 minutes for this segment. Do you think we can knock out three cases in 15 minutes?

With the help of Justice Raquel Montoya-Lewis? Yes, I think we can. Thank you. Please welcome Chelsea and Roger. Chelsea and Roger, welcome to the court of Judge John Hodgman. Which of you seeks justice before this court? I do, Your Honor.

And would you be Chelsea? Yes. What is the nature of the justice that you seek? So I love to go to the movies. Sure. And I like to go to the movies with Roger. He really only likes to see MCU movies. But he...

I make no apologies for who I am. Roger. I stand with you. It's hard. I mean, there was a time when it was easy to be a fan of MCU movies. Now it's getting more difficult. There was a time in which you couldn't be a fan of comic books at all.

Well, that's what I'm talking about, Roger. What's your favorite MCU movie, would you say? Oh, Captain America or Winter Soldier. Same. Alright, alright. Same? Okay, Captain America or Winter Soldier. Same. All right, all right. Same, okay, okay. I like that quite a bit. I'm going to see Quantumania on Monday.

Your decision in this will help us decide where we are going to see that movie. Oh, really? Fantastic. There will be an immediate ruling in usage of this. Okay. So I apologize, I interrupted. You love to see the movies.

Roger loves MCU movies. But he will only go to the movies at a premium I-Pick theater. It's much more expensive. They have really expensive alcohol and food that is kind of mediocre and it's further away. I am an AMC Stubs subscriber.

A-list. It's amazing. Any other Stubbs in the house? Big up for Stubbs. And I can go see three movies a week for free. So whenever we go to this, not only is it more expensive, I also am paying a fee that I wouldn't normally have to pay to go see a movie. Are you an AMC Stubbs A-list member?

Yes. What does that mean? Because I just read it. For $21 a month, you can see up to three movies a week for free. And are you an employee of AMC? I am not an employee of AMC. I just love going to their theaters.

You just love going to their theaters. Why don't you like the I-Pick? Now, you mentioned that they serve food there. So obviously, you don't enjoy going to see movies where Why don't you like the I-Pick? Now, you mentioned that they serve food there, so obviously you don't enjoy going to see movies where servers are walking back and forth in front of you all the time and dropping tater tots on your nose? That's totally it.

It's not dark enough in there because they keep the lights up slightly so that you can still see, so they don't drop tater tots on you. It's very distracting when they come in and out. And I also don't love the iPic has these little pods. Oh, wow.

So it's fine when it's just the two of us. Are you seeing movies in like first class in Emirates Air or something like that? It's basically first class, yeah. And I don't fly coach.

Like I said, I don't apologize for who i am no hot nuts no movie um but when there's three people because sometimes roger's my cousin um sometimes his wife will join us and then that means that two people are sitting in one pod and then the other person is sort of not seeing the movie with the other two people you got shunted to the stranger pod i got shunted to the stranger pod so there's someone else in the pod with you someone you don't even know no it was empty it was just me it was just it was just one it's just a solo pod solo pod why do you why do you like these pods so much what's the food that you get there what's so good about it what do you like well first off it's a pod. So instead of like, we have stadium seating here.

Imagine just being able to sit with the person you came with and no one else. Including the other person that you came with. I was not prepared for that response. I also would be fine sitting in the solo pod by myself because I would really stretch out. Like, I have no problem

man-spreading in a pod. They bring you alcohol and they bring you a pillow and you have a blanket and there are no children allowed in this theater, which if you've ever gone to a theater with children,

that's not a pleasant experience. Sorry, children. Also, Your Honor, if you'd like to ask Chelsea where her favorite theater is located, it's on a street that people in Seattle are very familiar with. Well, this seems fairly explosive, but I'll allow it. What street is your favorite AMC theater located on? It's the Oak Tree on Aurora.

But there are two other options, one of which is around the corner. Let the record show that even the children are standing up and applauding. Child, why do you like that street so much? It's not too traffic-y? Wait, what are you, a 40-year-old Angeleno?

What is your name, young person? Mimi. Thank you for your contribution. You seem very smart and capable. Unfortunately, Roger wants you to leave. All children must leave so Roger feels safe in his pod. How do you want me to solve this problem? Well, first of all, Justice Raquel, do you go to the movies? I do. Do you know of either of these movie theaters or this incredible non-trafficky street? Can you offer any local insight that will help me and you judge this case?

I'm familiar with the movie theater on Aurora. I'm not familiar with this newer modern invention that he's describing. Do you share my suspicion that this might just be Roger's house? Yes, I do. I would be so much happier for my own house. What would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor, Chelsea? I asked that you make Roger come to an AMC movie with me at least half of the time. And that when we go to the I-Pick, that he pay for that. And that we declare that the AMC theater is better. Roger, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule? We would rule that we would,

A, acknowledge the I-Pick is the superior. Wait, who's the we here? You and Judge Hodgman? They. They would rule. The Roger we. The Roger, the royal we. The Rogerial we.

I would say we acknowledge that I-Pick is better. I will concede to paying for her ticket when we go to the I-Pick. And we acknowledge that I never have to go to an AMC theater as long as I live. Wow. What do you think? I'm going to text Nicole Kidman real quick. She's going to be a real

pissed. What do you think, Justice Raquel? It seems like if we take AMC off the table entirely that gets rid of a whole host of movies, and that seems too limiting. That's correct. Not of the movies that I watch. Roger, there are other humans in the world.

I know you make no apologies for who you are. Other humans also exist with full brains, likes, dislikes, and they also deserve to not apologize for who they are. I will say this. You're very generous and appropriately gracious to offer to pay to take Chelsea to this weird movie house that you go to.

I like going to these movies that have these big old comfy chairs and they bring you food and drink and so forth. But it is not necessarily the ideal place to watch a movie if you are just trying to completely go into a nothing box, as it were, and become one with the story. People like what they like. I'm going to rule in Chelsea's favor. Wait a minute. That child was clapping. People like what they like. I'm going to rule in Chelsea's favor.

Wait a minute. That child was clapping. I thought you left. 50% of the time, it's too much. Just negotiate it case by case. If he wants you to go to your thing, he has to pay. If you go to AMC, then yeah. You know what I'm saying. I'm not going to rule that one is better than the other because people are different. They like what they like. I make no apologies for lying.

But if he wants you to go to this other movie, he absolutely has to pay, and you have the right to say, no, I'm not going to be stuck in the junk pod. I'm going to go see the movie where I want to see it. By the way, going into a dark room and watching a movie by yourself, it's the greatest feeling in the world. Oh, I do it all the time. You don't need to go with Roger.

I do it all the time. Yeah, if you do it all the time, look, you're A-list. You're A-list. You're A-list Stubbs, the famous detective. Going to movies all the time. You can put up with Roger's eye pick from time to time, but you gotta pay. This is the sound of a

gavel. Chelsea and Roger. Judge Hodgman, I have to ask the justice a related question here. Thank you, Chelsea and Roger. Thank you very much, Chelsea and Roger. Judge Hodgman, I have to ask the Justice a related question here. Thank you, Chelsea and Roger. Thank you very much, Chelsea and Roger. Justice, my paternal grandfather was a vice president of the Fox Theater Corporation. And as such, he got a real metal card for Lee E. Thorne Jr. and family in perpetuity

to get free admission to Fox Theateraters, now Lowe's Theaters. Now, when I took this card to a Lowe's Theater, they brought out a binder of different cards that they no longer honor and sent me away. That's not legal, right? That's baloney. I would ask you to seek legal counsel for that one. Thank you. Thank you. Please welcome to the stage Liz and Dan. Liz and Dan. Who seeks justice in this

fake court of law? Would that be Liz? It would be Liz. Liz, what is the justice that you seek? Dan and I just got married. Congratulations. Oh. Congratulations. Congratulations. Thank you.

Yes, you were both wearing rings. You both raised your rings. Yeah, we did that. To the listening ears of the podcast audience. I haven't lost it yet. Yeah. All right. For like three months, right?

And so I moved into Dan's house. And this is not up for dispute. Dan's tub is gross. It's gross. It's gross. Dan's tub is gross. Yes. And he has agreed.

So ordered. Yeah. Thank you. See? I told you. Is it gross? Your honor. Is it gross?

I'll allow it. Is it gross because it is not cleaned properly or is it gross because it is out of date uh your honor i object to your impugning my cleaning you may not okay i'm sorry yeah no it's just it's a house that hasn't been really updated since the 50s. Okay. And it's, well, it's yellow. Oh, the bathtub is yellow? Yeah. I mean, I don't. Was it always yellow?

I mean. Or did the cat in the hat visit? The yellow cat in the hat. I did present our cat as evidence. But anyway. No, it's just like it's ugly and it's gross and it has these stickers that I can't get off and it has a door.

What stickers? The little ones that keep you from skidding. Oh, I see. Those like sports stickers and travel stickers like you put on a suitcase. Yeah. Okay. And so he's agreed that we can rip out the tub

and put in something like more soakity for me. Oh, terrific. Problem solved. Thank you very much for being here. We're going to remodel. It's funny that I'm a professional editor. It takes me forever to tell a story. But the dispute is that I want to just have a shower curtain so that I can rest my arm while I'm soaking in the tub.

I can have a glass of wine or whatever. And Dan does not. He wants a door. And I think doors are disgusting. They're like where the little red mold that we get in Seattle grows and soap scum. What kind of door do you want? You want a tub with a sliding door like my grandparents used to have? Yeah.

Grandparents. That's a good word. Haven't been to your grandparents? No. An opening door would be fine. It's. That's a good word. Haven't been to your grandparents? No, an opening door would be fine. It's not gross, by the way. It's gross. You currently have

a sliding door. Yes. And a yellow tub. Correct. With stickers in the bottom that keep you from falling. And it's in Fitchburg, Massachusetts where you bought my grandparents' house. We had it sent in, yeah. All right. Dan, we heard that Liz is an editor.

You may have some expertise in this area. What is your profession? Well, I'm a plumber. Ah. So that means I'm in and out of people's tubs all day long. Sounds sexy, Dan. I know a good tub. We do need to update the tub. I'll admit that.

But there's lots of fine glass doors sliding, opening. I don't know. I think some of them go up and down. Maybe we can research. Are you... Probably. I thought you were...

As far as shower curtains go, they get mold, black mold. What I want is one of those gullwing tubs, like a DeLorean. You know what I mean? More like a sensory deprivation tank. I will set you up with that. You're talking about a shower curtain.

Justice Raquel, do you have any thoughts so far on how this case is shaping up? I think they should get a tub that fits two. A two-person tub? A horny tub. We're done here. I agree. That would be a hot tub, yeah.

A very hot tub. Let the record reflect that Liz and Dan are horny older people. Right there, baby. Liz, let the record reflect they high-fived each other at that particular time. Love is great. If it happens that you're staying at the hotel I am tonight, just I'll pretend that I didn't see you. Would that be the graduate by chance?

But you don't have to say. What? The graduate hotel is across over here. I mean, he clearly was sending me a message. Your Honor! I'm going to have my lifelong dream of having a threesome in my grandparent's club. I'm glad we made those children leave. Children.

That's. children that's a threesome is when two people love each other very much and an entertainer is passing through town just for just for the sake of sheer adorableness, how did you meet? Online. Online? Yeah.

And you moved into Dan's house, correct? Yeah, yeah. What was your house like? Perfect? Yes. Your Honor, that woman is lying! Overruled. However, it was 710 square feet. You lived in a very small place.

I did, yeah. So here is your opportunity to join your life in a larger place. What's the square footage over at Dan's house? Too many. Several thousand, I don't know. Several thousand? No. A little over a thousand.

How many bathrooms do you have? We have a toilet in the basement. As well as the upstairs. You have one bathroom and a toilet in the basement. Yes. It's a very handy toilet, though. Sir, are you describing a jug you found? That's uncalled for.

This is suddenly turning into a horror movie. I met this couple at a hotel. We hit it off. They invited me back to their house. Dan wanted me to see the toilet in the basement. All of a sudden, it's a whole barbarian situation. Oh, boy. You only have one bathroom.

Yes. Is there the possibility of adding a second bathroom, sir? Yes, there is. But it's going to take a long time. I know you would need to know a plumber in order to get it done quickly. John, we've all waited for the plumber to come. Is it not within your budget or your time frame? What is it that you can't do in a second?

Yeah. It's kind of either or. I'm not going to ask you why. You're just telling me you can't add a second bathroom? Yeah. Because in a second? Yeah. It's like, it's kind of either or. I'm not going to ask you why. You're just telling me you can't add a second bathroom? Yeah. Because of the curse? Yeah. Okay.

I didn't know you knew about that. We will add a shower in the basement, stretching out the toilet area. Oh, that's a great idea for your new bride. Create a beautiful shower in the basement. That's just for me. She can have the bathtub all to herself. That's fine. You want the shower curtain so that you can pull it back

and have a glass of wine and rest your arm on it. You can't do that with a glass panel or a door. Right, and they don't fit in the washing machine either. Like, I want to take the shower curtain down and wash it when it gets dirty instead of having to... Yeah, because I'll tell you what's gross. Shower curtains. They're disgusting.

Yes, but shower doors don't fit in the washer. Yeah, but you wipe them down. They did... I wiped them down. I would do it if it got bad enough, you know. Dan, you're not making it easy. She keeps throwing away my sponges. She's got a problem with my sponges.

Here's what I'm going to say. Can I add one thing? I guess so. Now, shower curtains, when you have shower curtains, you get water all over the floor, right? Because, I mean, that's been my experience at times he's only a plumber i mean he would wipe up the water if it got bad enough it's very true

here's what i'm going to say dan Dan, I think shower curtains are gross. I used to have them, got tired of them. When we remodeled our bathroom, I put in a glass. I didn't put in, I didn't do anything. I went away. I wasn't allowed to live in my house for two years. When I came back, they put in a glass panel between the tub and the ceiling,

and you just walked into it, and there was a place to put your arm. There are beautiful, I think, and tasteful contemporary ways of having a bath and shower without a curtain. I'm not convinced you work the drains good, but I think if you want to make your case, you're going to need to consult a professional bathroom designer or look at a magazine. Start creating a lookbook so that you can show Liz to make your case over time, I think that you will be able to do it because I think what you have in mind

is better than a disgusting, moldy shower curtain. I think they're horrible. Do you want to have some kind of novelty world map on the shower curtain or what? No, but I want to hang the vintage shower curtain that my grandmother made for my mother. Oh. Was your grandmother some kind of vinyl artist?

You get the vinyl liner and then you can wash that and then the pretty teal and... I hadn't realized that there was an heirloom component. This is new information to me, too. Yeah. I have to be very clear. Touching as it is, you want to use your grandmother's shower curtain. It's really pretty.

Which, by the way, she asked to be buried with. This is increasingly... Justice Raquel, I have to say, this is increasingly starting to sound like a murder house. I agree. That was my other point. If a psycho killer is out to get you,

glass door is what you want. Right? Am I right? No. What you want is an aluminum gullwing door, like on a DeLorean, that you can lock. If that's your concern, get one of the pods from the I-Pick. You're a wise man, Judge Osmond.

Dan, you haven't made your case yet, either to me or to your bride. You have to go and do some work and some research. Look at some interior design magazines. Make a vision board online. I don't know. Talk to a property brother. Figure it out.

I am confident that there will come a time when you can show a picture to her, to Liz, that she will appreciate. It's not there yet. It's true. Until then, you can put in a tasteful new tub and a tension rod, and you're going to hang grandma's death curtain. Your heirloom shroud.

And Liz, so I am finding in Liz's favor, but this is incentive for you to go out and find the look that will convince her otherwise. This is the sound of a gavel. Liz and Dan, please welcome to the stage

Cheryl and Gabe Cheryl and Gabe oh it's Cheryl it's you Cheryl it's nice to see you Cheryl of course is a listener Gabe I don't know who you are but Cheryl I know because Cheryl is the person who

posted a video of herself singing about one of our sponsors sunbasket to the tune of I wear my sunglasses at night yeah this homage right here right and in the word you changed was I wear I I make my sunbasket at night yes I do yeah very adorable thank you for being here a Seattle person? Yeah. I'm from Mercer Island, which is right across the lake. Yeah. Well, welcome. What is the nature of your dispute? So I am married to an engineer named Gabe. I'm sorry. Not her cousin. Yeah. He has a system, which I really normally am a fan of systems. I like that he's a good problem solver and he develops helpful systems in our home. However, this current system involves using paper towels as a positive alternative to traditional plates, shower curtains.

Oh, no. Oh, I'm sorry. plates, bowls. Shower curtains? Oh, sorry. Yeah, he likes to put all sorts of things on a paper towel as, in his opinion, it is a superior alternative to plates or bowls.

Sure. Which I don't mind. Certainly it's better for the earth. We do compost. But, um, so however, we do go through a lot of Costco-sized paper towels. Oh, fun fact, Kirkland Signature from Costco, that's here in the east side of Seattle. Anyway, okay. You knew that, right?

What's the dispute? Okay. I need help. Cheryl, you know I love you. What's the dispute okay i would i need i need help you know i love you what's the yeah so what he has he his um idea for what is appropriate to put in a paper towel includes things like pickles or cutting up like an apple or salsa which Which it... Wait, wait, wait. Gabe, am I to believe that you cup a paper towel in your hand

and put a glop of salsa in there? That's right. And walk around? And are you married? I have to say, I developed this habit while a grad student living by myself. Okay. And I didn't want to do dishes. You are who you are and you don't apologize for it.

That's right. Uh-huh. And, yeah, so for the most part, you know, if I'm, instead of taking a plate, I have the paper towel. It serves multiple functions. If you have the paper towel, there's no evidence that you snacked throughout the day. No extra dishes that can be counted one by one in the dish, in the sink. You know, but then at the end of the day, the portion of the paper towel that is not moist, such as the center part from the pickle, can be used to dry the area of the counter that became moist. It's an impervious surface.

Some people do use vinegar to clean their... That's true. That's right. That's a very good point. So why not just pour pickle juice all over the place? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I like the idea that you don all over the place? Exactly, yeah.

I like the idea that you don't want to leave evidence around. Yeah. Yeah. The justice over there, I don't know. Let me ask you a question. You developed this system when you were a grad student? Yeah. When you were a grad student, I presume you had to live economically. I did.

So were you living in someone else's home in their walls? I actually, interestingly. And sneaking out at night and eating their food and needing to hide your presence? I did live in somebody's basement. Did they know you were there? They did. How was the toilet down there? Pretty good.

Yeah? I just had one toilet. Just one toilet? Yeah. Okay. I also believe that you use paper towels as a cutting board. I do, yeah. Yeah.

And sometimes you have to fold it, you know, a couple of times to give it enough surface. But sharp knife helps. Not sharp for long yeah it's very until you use it on that paper towel over and over again it's true you got to keep moving the position yeah i see like i said i've developed a system it's clear you thought it through. Sorry, go ahead. Oh, yeah. So it doesn't bother me if there's no residue left over. It's the liquid element. We need assistance in determining which food items are paper towel appropriate and which food items are not. And we need help with the judges.

And I'm a paper towel absolutist. If there's residue, then isn't the system not working? We need help with a judge. And I'm a paper towel absolutist. If there's residue, then isn't the system not working? Yeah, it could simply be a matter of him just complying with, you know, cleaning up afterwards. Because that is one of the things I don't like. I'm sorry, Cheryl. Wait a minute. Why didn't anyone answer me about the salsa?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Go back. Yeah. How do you use the paper towel with the salsa? So, like you said, you basically have your hand in a kind of a... I was making a joke. I mean, it really depends upon the type of salsa.

Certain salsas are thicker. No, it does not, sir. Guacamole, haven't tried that one try again i'm saving clam chowder so i yeah i haven't tried soup yet but thick soups would be a good place to start there would be a great place to start and stop. Fair, yeah. I thought that there would be a dispute.

Okay. In his defense, I have started doing this with certain things. I have started doing this with things like, for example, when I'm making my son's lunch and I'm like cutting up strawberries. I'm like, wait a minute. I could just do this on paper towels and then I could just scoop it up at the end.

So it's kind of rubbed off on me. But yeah, I draw the line. I think the pickle is kind of the midpoint of, you know, things that are potentially too liquidy. Like pickles. It starts with pickles and then pretty soon it's salsa. Let me explain something. How long have you been married? Ten years in May.

Ten years, yeah. Obviously very happy together. Yes. Yes. So when you live alone in someone's basement, you can come up with all kinds of theories on how to live. It's true. No one knows what...

Judge Hodgman, I have a question for the justice here before we get into that. Justice Montoya-Lewis, as a justice of the Washington State Supreme Court, off of what do you eat? I usually use plates. I have been known to use a paper towel.

All right, all right. But I don't understand how this is a system. This is my question. Oh! Where do you draw the line in terms of paper towel eating? I think the messiest you could get is maybe a piece of toast. But beyond that, that seems crazy to me. I think that that's a fair...

Pretty reasonable. Cheryl. Gabe, when you live in a basement with only a toilet for company, you can convince yourself that a lot of things are normal. Yeah, that's true. There's no one there to tell you, no, this is not how these things happen. Yeah. And what I realize now, Cheryl, is that lots of times when people get married or cohabitate and live together and join their lives, there's a lot of like eye opening about on both sides about like, oh, I thought it was normal to eat peanut butter out of the jar with my whole hand.

My mommy always said it was fine. And the other person has to say, your mommy's not here now. I'm not your mommy. Stop it. That's not typical. There's no normal. There's more typical. I'm a little concerned that you're getting swept up

into a world where you're starting to think that this is typical. It's not typical. Now, simply because it's not typical doesn't mean it's bad, obviously. However, it is. In this case. It's wasteful. It's dirty. It's not, we have things for all these things. And it's not good for your knives either when you're cutting them on paper towels. Like you need a,

you have dishes and bowls. Thank you for that. I think that was Tim the Tat Man applauding over there. I was going to have to, I was going to like settle this by asking if Cheryl would be willing to sing I Make My Sun Baskets at Night and therefore win the case,

but you've already won the case, but will you sing the song anyway? Oh, sure. All right. Matthew Barnard, hit it. That's his idea. Ow. Ow!

I make my son basket at night So I can, so I can Make yummy food from Jesse's friend from college I find it Cheryl's favorite. Thank you, Cheryl's favor. Thank you, Cheryl and Gabe. Let's hear it for Cheryl and Gabe. Most of all, let's hear it for Justice Raquel Montoya-Lewis. Thank you so much, Justice Lewis.

Thank you so much. What an incredible honor. That is all for this week's episode. This is Judge John Hodgman filling in for bailiff Jesse Thorne, giving you the credits. Thank you to all the litigants who joined us on stage at the Neptune Theater in Seattle. Evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. are posted on our Instagram account at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman. Make sure to follow us and join the conversation about this week's episode on the Maximum Fund subreddit over at maximumfund.reddit.com. Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and me, John Hodgman.

This episode was recorded by Matthew Barnhart and produced by Valerie Moffitt, Richard Roby, and Jennifer Marmer. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.