Judge John Hodgman - Live in Durham at the Carolina Theatre 2019

Episode Date: December 18, 2019

This week's episode was recorded LIVE in Durham, North Carolina at the Carolina Theatre in November of 2019. The first case is "Son of a Preacher Ban." Then, the judge and bailiff rule on cases having to do with excessive planking routines, singing in goofy manners, and birthday cakes during Swift Justice. -- Thank you to Alanna Talty for naming this week's case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions. -- SUBSCRIBE TO THIS PODCAST in APPLE PODCASTS or the RSS FEED

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week's episode recorded live in Durham, North Carolina at the Carolina Theater. And this is your judge, John Hodgman. This is also our last episode of the year. We hope you have a very happy new year. Thank you for listening. We'll be back in 2020 to bring you more justice.

Let's go to the stage at the Carolina Theater. Durham, you've come to us desperate for justice, and we're here at the Carolina Theater to deliver it. Friends, let's bring out our first set of litigants. Please welcome to the stage Grant and Pastor Irvin. Grant and Pastor Irvin. Tonight's case, son of a preacher band. Grant files suit against his father, Pastor Irvin.

Pastor Irvin regularly incorporates stories from his own life into his sermons, including stories about his children. Greg grew up hearing his father's Sunday sermons, which oftentimes included stories about Greg. Greg would like for his father to stop talking about him in his sermons. Pastor Ervin feels he has the right to share stories about his family. Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide. Please rise metaphorically as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference. Podcasting is awful. It's awful. It's painful. It's frightening. Makes you doubt yourself. Judge yourself. Distance yourself from other people in your life.

Makes you selfish. Makes you creepy. Makes you obsessed with your hair. Makes you cruel. Makes you say and do things you never thought you would do. It's all any of us want, podcasting. And it's hell when we get there. So no wonder it's something we don't want to do on our own. I was told that if we were born with podcasting,

then life is about choosing the right place to put it. People talk about that a lot. It feeling right. When it feels right, it's easy. But I'm not sure that's true. It takes right. When it feels right, it's easy. But I'm not sure that's true. It takes strength to know what's right. And podcasting isn't something that weak people do. Being a podcaster takes a hell of a lot of hope. I think that's what they mean when they say, you find somebody that you podcast with, it feels like hope.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Grant, Pastor Ervin, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he consorts with members

of the Church of Satan? It's true. It's true. It's true. He's friends with them. They're nice. It's true. Interfaith, it's called.

Sure. Let the record show the pastor said, sure. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. First of all, Grant and Pastor Irvin, you may be seated. It's true that I thought for the cultural reference that I would read the blurb that my first book, The Areas of My Expertise, was given by Peter H. Gilmore, high magus of the Church of Satan,

which was, thank you for bringing more laughter into this world. They're fun. Not actual devil worships, Pastor Irvin you for bringing more laughter into this world. They're fun. Not actual devil worships or it's more of an art project, don't worry. But for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom? Grant,

you're young. Your cosplaying is Adam Scott on Parks and Rec. I'll just say Reverend Jesse James autobiography, maybe? Reverend Jesse James autobiography. Autobiography.

Those are words. Sure. John. So Jesse James is a famous outlaw. Yeah. Who then became ordained in the Universal Church of Life when his friends asked him to marry him?

He's like, oh, I've got to go to the Internet and do this thing. Can I tell you an honest fact? Yeah. My father and stepmother were married by a priest named Jesse James. Really? Yeah, that's a true story. So that's who you're referencing specifically, obviously, Grant. Kind of an inside baseball thing, but I like the guess.

That's right, very good. Good research. Pastor Irvin, do you have a guess as to what piece of culture I referenced as I entered the courtroom? It sounded a little bit like Gandhi. Gandhi and Jesse James. That truly is a flip of the coin. I guessed Montezuma. All guesses are wrong.

Was it Teddy Roosevelt? I'm just naming figures from history. No. That's what they did. Fictional character. Did anyone get it? Fleabag is correct. It's the priest's homily at the wedding

in the second season of Fleabag. Check it out. Hot priest? Hot priest. That's right, hot priest. Sorry, I was talking to them for a while. Let's talk to you. I did mean Jesse Jackson.

No, I understand. It's very cool. Don't worry about it for a second. Okay. You have something in your hand. Is that evidence? No, but it's just a gift. Oh, really?

It's just some bribery. A gift, you say? Yeah. Another gift? Maybe it's a card game. Classic! We'll buzz market your card game near the end Thank you

So alright You bring this case do you not Grant Hold on Grant why don't you just bring an asthma inhaler Actually I could use one right about now I don't have a prescription for that So I just couldn't really get a hold of it I understand You know growing up

My dad would be At the pulpit from time to time prescription for that, so I just couldn't really get a hold of it. But, you know, growing up, my dad would be at the pulpit from time to time. He actually spent about 20 years as a children's minister. So he was my direct Sunday instructor for quite a while. Sure. You know, he would bring up these stories about my childhood, about my sister's childhood that were a little embarrassing. childhood, about my sister's childhood that were a little embarrassing. He's pretty good at what he does. So we would be at pretty big churches. And on Sunday morning, if he would tell a fairly embarrassing story, there would be maybe half as many people as there are in this room right now, like hundreds of people listening about what I did when I was four years old, three years old. And what sort of things would he tell that were so embarrassing? four years old, three years old.

And what sort of things would he tell that were so embarrassing? What are as many examples as you can remember? I was a handful as a kid, but he specifically told a story about me wanting some attention while he was on the phone, and I cut the phone line. And I presume he was on the phone with God? No.

Yes. Pastor Irvin, what denomination are you a pastor in? United Methodist Church. Fantastic. How do you defend yourself against your son's accusations that you have been misusing his life in the sermons? I guess I usually just respond with, you know, I'll give you five bucks, you know, for royalties. Have you ever made good on that offer, sir? Probably not. Ah, I see. Wow. Yeah.

Then there may be some damages to be awarded. But, you know, it's like these stories that I tell, though, they're stories that involve, you know, both of us. You know, it's our father-son relationship. You know, I was on the phone with somebody and he wanted to talk to me and I walked right by him coming home from that's back when I was teaching school and I kind of just kind of switched hats switched gears and kind of ignored him and so he reached his hand into one of those uh childproof lock drawers pulled out a

pair of scissors yeah and cut the cord and of course I did what you know we all did back then you know hello hello right you know, and, and there's nobody there. So, uh, and then I looked down and he looks at me, he's about three years old at that point. And he goes, are you going to listen to me now? Whoa. And then I, I think I start to change some colors, you know, kind of like, you know, white to dark red. And then he takes off and goes run down the hall and he gets under his barney bed. Right. Because he's scared. So I was like 12, 15, 16, 17 and these stories were coming up.

Yeah, but this is... To clarify, John, because there are some kids here. Later on, if you're interested romantically in another kid, the best thing to do, this will happen when you're 12, 15, 16, is just have your dad bring up your Barney bed. It's great, isn't it? Even now, how old are you now? I'm 27.

You still have that Barney bed, Grant? You still be bedding it, baby? He's like, no, I got a race car now, man. In your father's defense, that's a pretty badass story. That's, I mean, you know, first of all, that took some skill to get into that childproof drawer, get those scissors. That was a big move to cut the cord. I presume that when you're under your Barney bed, the demon speaks to you and tells you what to do in order to, and so, I mean, I think that's an incredible story. What was the context of the story in your sermon?

Well, the context was I was drawing an analogy to how sometimes we don't want to listen to God. Right. How that we get so busy that we don't really want to tune in and hear what he has to say. And so sometimes... So you're saying your son is God? No.

No, it was an analogy. Oh, sorry. You know, God? No. No, it was an analogy. Oh, sorry. You know, yeah, actually, yeah, it was an analogy. Yes, no, I think that that's right. You know, kind of part of the things that we've done and all of the experiences that we've had. And so, you know, a good storyteller tries to draw on, you know, those personal things.

But yeah, I mean, I think that that's, it's not merely just a heartwarming story, but it's a fairly arresting story about being mindful in life. Right. To the things that are meaningful to you. Correct. Right. I thought that I think that's fair use.

I don't think you owe him five bucks for that one. Well, you have another complaint. What's another one that you felt bad about? Uh, well, yeah, so that's,

that's one example, but he also mentioned a story about, you know, when I needed to get a booster shot and I got put into one of those harnesses. And he tried to kind of soothe me and say, you know, you're like a caterpillar. You'll be a butterfly. And then I shrieked, I don't want to be a butterfly. That's in line with the material.

Well, I was trying to get his mind off the blood getting drawn. Yeah, no, that's extremely touching. Right. I mean, he was three years old and he had never had that kind of high fever thing. And he's there and they're putting this Velcro papoose thing all around him to hold him still so they can draw the blood. And I thought, well, that'd be a great idea. Take his mind off it and you're gonna be a butterfly.

And then he said, with just crocodile ears coming down his cheeks, Daddy, I don't want to be a butterfly. Crocodile ears suggests insincerity. Do you think he was faking it? Oh, no. Okay, gotcha. Why didn't you want to be a butterfly, Grant? I just wasn't ready yet.

Are you there now? Are you close? Almost there. When I turn 30, I think I'll be there. Grant, you know what story my Aunt Gail likes to tell about me? What's that? It's the time I went to her company picnic, and I disappeared for a little while.

It was on an island near San Francisco called Angel Island. I disappeared for a little while, and I came back while everyone was getting their food, and I looked up at her, and I said at the top of my voice, Aunt Gail, I pooped on the beach like a dog. The moral of the story is you can win these negotiations. So in the context, Pastor Irvin, of the sermon, this story symbolizes what?

What were you illustrating in the story of, or were you just sort of bragging about what a great dad you are? No, no, no, no. Because I thought, by the way, that's a very touching story. Well, thank you. And when Grant tells it, I'm like, this dad's terrific. Right. And then thinking of you telling it at church, I'm like, this dad likes

talking about what a good dad he is. But I don't think it was about that. What was the context? It's about the idea of new life, that God loves us and God wants to bring us new life and give us an opportunity to be everything that he's created us to be. So that's kind of where the story fits.

I'm going to give that one a B plus. Okay. That's generous. God wants us to turn into butterflies by getting our blood drawn? Is that the message here? This is not a comment on your expression of faith. Right. Which is A+.

I am a purely agnostic, non-religious person, but A+, for expression of faith. Very touching. And then also, I would say solid A for a fun story about your kid. But it feels a little... They feel shoehorned together. Whereas Cutting the Telephone Chord, Are You Listening to Me Now? is like, whoa. You know what I mean?

I feel healed by that. Do you know what I mean? That makes me want to walk again. I don't think that's what the Methodists are up to. I apologize for every joke that I make. When did you start telling these stories? How old was Grant initially? Grant was probably about, you know, eight or nine. Eight or nine. Yeah. Was he in the congregation? Sometimes. Yes. I mean, between the ages of like one and 18, I was in church every week.

Right. So, okay. Were you not aware that he was there every week? There were just different venues that we shared. Sometimes at camp, great camp stories. I just found that kids really appreciated hearing about stories that they could relate to. Sure. Times in their lives where things didn't work out good

or they got in trouble or stuff like that. And, you know, Grant, Grant got in trouble a lot. What? Tell me more. Tell me another story. This one doesn't have to be a metaphor for anything. Okay. We had just moved to a church in Orlando and we'd just been there a few months.

And sometimes in between services I wouldn't have a total track of where my kids were so I tried to keep an eye on him as much as I could but I was talking to people doing my pastor thing and and so he actually came up to my boss the senior pastor and actually kind of hit him in the family jewels so yeah Cool. I think that's a kid-friendly term. So like I said, he just really gave us great material. Is he an okay kid now or do I have to watch myself?

He's a great kid now. Okay, yeah. I'm employed, so that's good. You're making... Tell us about your card game. That's something I do in my spare time.

I have a studio called Honeycomb Interactive, but I also work full-time at a major video game company in the area. You never yourself felt the call to service as your dad did? No. No. When did you decide to become a pastor, if I may?

When I was 12. When you were 12 years old? Yeah. Actually, my mom was a teacher and I was, you know, for a while. And my dad was a fire chief. And so, no, I have an uncle who's a pastor, but I was really the first pastor clergy in my immediate family. But when I started out in ministry, I like, like Grant was saying for the first 20 years, I was involved in children's ministry. I was a children's pastor. So

I would, uh, use lots of different object lessons and puppetry and different things like that. And that's kind of where Grant and I kind of first shared, you know, those hobbies that were first hobbies before I went into the ministry full time. And one of them was puppetry and he was doing puppet characters like at the age of three. Right. And he was memorizing scripts. And, and so storytelling was always kind of a part of our relationship. You know, we just love stories. Right, and then you just started taking his stories and using them to spread the word. Yeah, I guess, yeah. For your own spiritual gain.

Grant, did you ever express your displeasure with your father? Not before my mother did. Oh, okay. What was her complaint? She said, Andy, it's embarrassing that children don't do it. That would be you, Pastor Irvin? Right. She tried to advocate. She's allowed to call you something other than pastor. I'm like me. Right. I got it. Right. We're not. Okay. I got it. We're not on that level. I agree. We'll get there. Right. Okay.

Were you embarrassed? Did you say something to your mom? Yeah. I think we eventually, me and my sisters, because we're all kind of three years apart. Okay. So we all kind of grew up with this experience. And your sisters are also grist for the story, Milt? Not as much as me. And you sent in some evidence, right?

Some photos of the family? Who sent it in? Would it be you, Grant? My mother picked them out and I kind of sent them in. Let's have a look at these photos. They'll all be available on the Judge Sean Hodgman page at MaximumFun.org and our... Wow.

This is adorable. Also on Instagram at Judge Sean Hodgman. Yeah. So here's Pastor Irvin and Grant, the young Grant sporting not one but two gold medallions. Thank you for being gold. Yes. What'd you get those awards in? Probably Bible quizzing, I would

guess. And some puppetry. Double gold? Yeah. One gold Probably Bible quizzing, I would guess. And some puppetry. Double gold? Yeah. One gold in Bible quizzing, one gold in puppetry. Grant, what is this evidence you sent in to represent? Proof that I was a child and that he was a dad, or is a dad.

The stories are true. Yes, I recognize you as those people at an earlier time. Next piece of evidence, please. Here is a family portrait. These are the whole family, including your wife slash Grant's mom plus the two sisters, right?

And did the sisters ever figure into the sermons or did Grant get special treatment? Sometimes. But less often Grant was the... Probably Grant. Right, because he was a terror. Is this a picture of the five of you on your way to audition for a local production of Fosse?

No. No, it was a church directory photo, actually. Right, dressed as beatniks. My wife said we're all wearing one color. I hate to say this, because it already made everyone uncomfortable, but there's a real Church of Satan vibe in this. It's just a striking

look. It's all black. Next slide, please. Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. Loving family next to a body of water. And this is Vacation. We're all happy here because next to a body of water. And this is a vacation. We're all happy here because someone's missing in the picture. Oh!

Right in the metaphorical family jewels. I was taking the picture. That's true. He was taking the picture. He was there. When I was not there, I was the one taking the picture. Right? I was not there.

I was the one taking the picture, right? And this is to represent... Proof of family. Yeah, this is proof of family life. Well, they're adorable photos. Thank you. Did you ever think, at a certain point, to ask Grant's permission to continue to use these stories? No.

Do you use them to this day? Yeah. Well, you know, again, there are stories that kind of describe our relationship. I mean, we're both in the stories sure we both you know are involved and and no i understand it kind of supports that you know kind of his origins and where he started from and like all these things that kind of became part of

his identity i i understand and i could definitely see as a father myself i could definitely see an argument that my children's lives and life stories belong to me. They're my intellectual property. And I've certainly made a bundle off them in my books. But I ask this, Grant has now expressed, first via his mother, now in person, in an open forum. Right. That this makes him uncomfortable. I mean, Grant, are you asking me to rule that your father not tell these stories again?

There's another wrinkle because he is a published author. So it covers vocal stories, but then also written word. I just want a full coverage, full protection. Oh, I thought you were asking for a portion of his earnings. No, no. also written word. I just want a full coverage. Full protection. Oh, I thought you were asking for a portion of his earnings. I understand raising a child is expensive, so I'm not looking for damages. Grant, if you decide to seek

damages, I got a few good negotiating techniques you might try. Okay. The family jewels. Pooping on the beach like a dog. Oh, right. So, you would like me to order your father to excise all of the stories,

all the Grant stories in his sermon repertoire and no longer write them down either. And I presume destroy all copies of his books to date. How does he even work these childhood stories into his spy thrillers? It's a secret. If I told you, I'd have to kill you. What kind of books are you writing?

They're really books about working with kids, you know, in the church and cool stuff. Now, those are strong demands, so I presume that they are underscored by strong and sincere feelings of discomfort with these stories being told. Now that Grant has expressed

that, does that make you feel differently about telling the stories? I think they make me feel more sensitive to using stories that are going to still put him in a very positive light you know i i don't ever want to say anything or do anything that would intentionally embarrass him or upset him but uh it definitely makes me think more about you know uh being sensitive to to that yeah so all right I think I've heard everything I need to

in order to make my decision. Okay. I'm going to go into my private Church of Satan chapel, and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Grant, how are you feeling about your chances in the case right now? You know, fantastic, pretty much. It was a little, you know, I had to lose a little because those stories did come out in the open air

in front of a lot of people. Yeah, I was surprised you told the first one. Well, yeah, so I think it was worth it overall. We're also going to podcast this. Did you know that? I did, yeah. I'm just saying don't run for Congress or whatever. Pastor Urban, how are you feeling about your chances?

You know, I have no really worries about it. You know, I think that John and I are both dads. You know, we both have been on some interesting journeys, and I think he appreciates my son's creativity as much as I do. Take a look at your son right now. I don't know if he has children, but he's already a dad. The two of you are on even footing. Pastor Irvin, I don't know how Methodists feel about throwing Hail Mary passes.

You might be in trouble here. And I think I've got a negotiating technique for you. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with made-in pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made in, made in. The Rohan duck, made in, made in. Riders of Rohan, duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it, made in, made in. Made In has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years.

They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town? Just buy it online. This is professional grade cookware that is available online directly to

you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit MadeInCookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N Cookware.com. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. You both seem very confident as I listened in to your assessment of your chances in the case.

There is a little saying that we have in the Church of Satan. Pride goeth before the fall. No, no, no. The Church of Satan doesn't say that. They say, do whatever you want. Let God sort it out I guess, I don't know

I'm not a member of the Church of Satan neither are any of the members of this family I alluded to the fact that I am also a storyteller, just for money no larger purpose whatsoever money and vanity money vanity pride envy sloth all those things yeah that's why i'm out here slinging the stories And for a long time, I chose not to tell stories about my children, either directly or in indirect fictional ways. And I refused to even name them in my early written work, in part because I respected their privacy,

in part because telling stories about children, especially when they are young, and especially, I would say, in comedy, can verge on hackiness very quickly, because kids are kind of dumb, and they say hilarious things. They are basically material generators. Do you know what I mean? My kid's brain hasn't grown to full adulthood yet, and so they said a dumb thing. Ha ha ha. My kid's brain hasn't grown to full adulthood yet, and so they said a dumb thing. Ha ha ha. But in a very real way, because I did not want to use them for material. And then I moved into a different phase of my storytelling,

when instead of telling very arch-absurdist, humorous ha-ha jokes, I started telling true stories from my life, as you tell true stories from yours. And the time came, both I felt to be open about my journey through fatherhood, and that that might be helpful to other people. And so I would talk about my children and tell stories about things that we experienced together without naming them, but they don't need me to get famous. Or they shouldn't. The point is, I'm the famous one, not them. but they don't need me to get famous. Or they shouldn't.

The point is, I'm the famous one, not them. I'm not here to make them famous. And I also started telling stories about their lives because I was out of material and I had to. All of my concerns about hackiness went into the garbage because I've got to fill up time. One question I didn't ask and should have honest answer how big a part of your act in comedy terms is grant a part of settle on a percentage individually like 50 of your sermons have a grant story in them, 25%, 5%, 90%.

Settle on something in your mind. Okay. You settle on something in your mind. Okay. And after I say three, you both say what you came up with. One, two, three. 15%.

I would land on 15% as well. You just waited until your daddy talked first. You're supposed to be a rule breaker. You're supposed to be a rule breaker. So is it a choice every time, especially as your children grow up and they become whole human beings who have feelings and reputations of their own, who are known in their community

and have a right to a measure of privacy? Is this story worth it? Is this story going to communicate something to someone else and really help them such that it is worth violating the privacy of my child without their permission? Or is it just sort of funny? One of them I gave a B+, solid B, B+, in terms of its engagement with what you were trying to say to your congregation. The other one, cutting the phone cord, it was such a powerful illustration of what you were trying to talk about. You can tell that one for the rest of your life.

I mean, here's the thing. I think that you should take very seriously the fact that Grant is made uncomfortable. That he has asked you to stop. And if Grant had not goaded you into telling the story about him punching someone in the nuts I might take him seriously I might have ruled in his favor completely but clearly

your lives and your stories are entwined there are some stories that you want to have out there such as you hurting your dad's pastor boss there are some stories that you want to have out there such as you hurting your dad's pastor boss shall be enshrined forever

in podcast history your lives are entwined and Grant I can't in good conscience put an injunction on your dad's right to remember you as you were when you were younger,

just cutting and punching and running and hiding and screaming and crying and non-butterflying. You know. And wearing that one hat from that picture. Yeah. 2009 was a heady time. I know. That's right.

These are stories that are not merely of service to his congregation when used correctly, but also of service to him, I would think, to remember what it was like to be a parent of a younger child. Because you're disappearing before his eyes. You have grown into a handsome, childless young dad, wearing a shawl collar sweater. So I am not going to find in your favor grants. I am going to instead grant your dad, Pastor Irvin, the right to continue to tell these stories on two conditions. One is,

you need to think very carefully, now that your son is an adult and you know how he feels, whether it's worth it. There are times when parents say, and parents have said to me, I know it's wrong, but I'm doing it anyway. If he does not actively grant your permission,

and you use the story anyway, you need to be able to justify it in the power of the storytelling, such that you can turn to your son and say, I know it's wrong, but I'm doing it anyway. And I want you to think carefully before you use those stories. That butterfly story is a great dinner table story when it is totally appropriate to embarrass your son. It's not embarrassing.

It's just a story about what a great dad you are. That cutting the phone cord, boy oh boy. Chef kiss. The other caveat or commandment if I may is atonement pride goeth before the fall you sat up there and you're like

I don't care what he thinks I'm going to keep telling these stories I would like you to turn to your son and say in your own words that you care what he thinks and you'm going to keep telling these stories. I would like you to turn to your son and say in your own words that you care what he thinks and you're sorry that you hurt his feelings. But into the microphone. It's really hard.

Grant, I really do care about you and I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings. And now say but I'm doing it anyway. that I hurt your feelings. And now, now say, but I'm doing it anyway. But I'm doing it anyway.

All right. Very good. This is the sound of a gavel. Grant and Pastor Irvin, thank you. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen?

Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real-life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world, and you get to hear this sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyperacademic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time.

And you get to hear the sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. We have brought so far, I think think a modest amount of justice i think that the durham area the research triangle requires further justice do you think we could do it i mean we only got about 15 minutes to do this we have children in the audience one of whom is desperately wanting to go to bed i can see now. Do you think we can offer treble justice in 15 minutes?

Set a timer and let's move to swift justice. Okay. Please welcome our first case, Linda and Bridget. Linda and Bridget. Which one is Linda, please? This is Linda. Hi, Linda. How are you? I'm great. You can move that stool a little bit closer to the microphone if you'd like to be more comfortable that way.

And you must be Bridget? Yeah. And your relationship is? She's my mom. and uh and she's your daughter she's my daughter I put that together very well perfect who comes to this court seeking justice is it you Bridget or you Linda I do yeah what is what is your complaint um so my mom uh about a year ago started doing this thing where she planks every single day, and she's been increasing it by 10 seconds every day for the past year. For the benefit of the sedentary in the audience, would you explain what planking is, Linda? Planking is, for me, the way I do it, I am in not a prone position, but in a position where I'm up on my arms and my toes.

Sort of planking your body above the floor, holding yourself aloft on your arms. And is this a Pilates move or just a general sort of core strength training move? I think it's just a general fitness move. Right. And how did this get started for you? So I was in a yoga class and my instructor was just one day mentioned oh the world record for planking was set and what was it it's like 10 hours 10 minutes and 10 seconds and then he stopped and took like a 30 minute break and then planked for another like nine hours after he set the record yeah the. The world record planker? Exactly. And what's this person's name?

George Hood. Well, I didn't think you were going to remember. I was going to speak to the futility of planking in the history of the world, how no one's ever remembered for planking. Only the weirdos. Yeah, but George Hood? George Hood.

George Hood, well... He's now internationally famous via our podcast. I'm surprised. Dozens of people. I should not have thrown shade on a planker. And what's your goal with the planking? How long can you do it, and what's your goal? So I'm up to an hour and 16 minutes and 50 seconds.

And I'd like to go to two hours. an hour and 16 minutes and 50 seconds. And I'd like to go to two hours. I don't do it every day. I've backed off a little bit. I started and when I got to about 40 minutes, it was just too much. What do you think about when you're doing this? I do

different things. I can read. Oh, okay. It's not purely meditative. No. It's just self-pun okay. It's not purely meditative. No. It's just self-punishing. Exactly. It's punitive, yeah. Do you watch shows? Do you stream?

Do you listen to podcasts? I listen to podcasts, read. Right. How do you turn the pages? I don't do it on my elbows. I do arm planking, so I just do one-handed planking. That doesn't ruin the plank? No.

All right, good. What are you reading? Lots of things. Yeah, I know. It's the worst question in the world. I apologize. Your mom seems pretty awesome. What's your complaint? Do you live at home? No. I live away

from home. My problem... Are you a legal adult? I'm 20. You're out in the world? Yeah, I'm out in the world. It's not of the world it's not like you're at home tripping over your mom getting a snack no no but she's probably just like all the other whatever comes after millennials she's just planking tiktoks it's true or like not even a tiktok not even a full tiktok but sincerely why why why bring your case before this court? It's not so much the planking because I know that she loves it, but it's the extremity of the planking.

And I'll call her during the week, and I'll be like, hey, Mom, what's up? And she's like, oh, I'm just planking. I'll go over there to spend the night or something over to her house and she's like okay I gotta do

my plank now and then I'll just be sitting on my phone while she's like on the floor planking yeah but she can read a book she can have a conversation

I mean admittedly it's strange that's the problem but it's not she's not going into her right you're not going into your own

world right Linda you can still have a conversation with Bridget while planking right yeah I like the distraction of a conversation while planking well well you just oh so you're just using Bridget as a plank distraction can you come over so I can plank and have a conversation yeah what do what why do you think Bridget is concerned about your planking what do you what do you interpret this as because I don't get it interpret it as her just thinking

that I'm going overboard and being a little over the top, maybe. And you agree, Bridget? Yeah, and maybe like a health concern. Is it a health concern? A little bit. Are you afraid she might break herself in half? I'm just going to cut to the chase here, John.

Linda, are you just afraid to die? Yes. Yes or no? I welcome death. She's welcome. Does your mom's welcoming of death trouble you, Bridget? I don't know.

She's not, you know, like buying me groceries anymore. Right. So less than maybe like six years ago. Now you can feed yourself. It's fine for her to die. I'm just kidding. Sure. Okay.

John, let's call it the circle of life. Right. I think I'm, I think you're coming into focus for me now, Bridget. There are two things that I think could be going on here and let me know if either of them resonate with you. Does your mom have a history of going overboard with hobbies in the past? Yeah. Exercise hobbies. Can you give me an example? in the past? Yeah, exercise hobbies. Can you give me an example? Well, just like this reverence, like a worship for like the workout, her workout regime. Like she's like, I'm empty without it. We want to be alive. We don't want death. I don't believe you're lying. The other thing that might be going on is that it's sometimes hard for adult children to adjust to how their parents start getting weirder and weirder once they've left the house.

As we try to figure out what just happened for the past 18, 20 years of our lives. When our entire lives were given over to this lovely parasite that we were raising. And now all they want to do is criticize us on stage. Does your mom's weird hobby just freak you out a little bit? Maybe partially that. I think it's a very, like, I feel like it might be more productive to just, like, go to a therapist

or something. Sorry, mom. I do that. Look, I appreciate that you can have open communication with each other. I think there's only one way to resolve this dispute and that is

trial by planking. Linda, Linda, would you mind planking on stage in this area? I do not mind. I'm glad to hear that. Because, Linda, if you can plank for the rest of this entire segment, then I shall rule in your favor.

If you should falter, Bridget shall be the winner. I don't even know what it means except winning or losing. It's not fair. She can do it. Let me tell you something, dear lady. Life isn't fair. Mom, get planking.

The stakes are higher for your mother. If she loses, we murder her. Okay. That's acceptable. Let's get Linda into planking mode. Linda's... Oh, someone wants to plank with her. There she goes.

Linda's removed her sensible and attractive flats. Someone start a timer. Someone's... Here, this person on the end, start a timer. We'll add ten seconds to whatever your result is. Bridget, if you would like to sit by your mom while she planks, or you may leave the stage, which would you like?

I know this is very- I'm gonna watch you from afar. Watch you, right, okay. I love you, good luck. Bridget, we'll have you come out later when we figure out the result of this. But let's move on to the next case. Please welcome Megan and Laura.

She can't even watch you, Linda. She can't even watch you. Megan and Laura, who brings this case before me? I do. And what justice do you seek? And what's your name? I'm Megan.

Hi, Megan. Hi. How are you? I'm John. Good. Megan. Hi. How are you? I'm John. You can call me Pastor John. So I bring this case against my sister. I really like to sing. I often make up songs and words to songs.

I'm just singing along songs in my head all the time. And Laura says that I to songs. I'm just singing along songs in my head all the time. And Laura says that I ruin songs. And I would like her to stop telling me that I ruin songs and just let me live my life. May I presume that Laura is the elder sister? I'm the middle child.

And in age relation to Megan? Megan's like a year and a half older than me. I'm the middle child. And in age relation to Megan? Megan's like a year and a half older than me. I'm the oldest. Oh, you're older. Oh, you're the eldest. We get that a lot, actually. Oh, interesting. Yeah, because you are

an angry controlling person who wants to... who resents your sister's joy. You resent her freedom to move through the world happily and without the need to be the good one all the time. That's why I pegged you for the older sister.

Those are not the words I would choose. No, no. You're just a middle child. Very much so. Alright, I understand. How does Megan ruin songs? I'd like to point out for the record that Megan does have a beautiful singing voice. Megan

sings like a bird. She harmonizes. It's beautiful. So when she's singing for real, it's a beautiful thing. But then all of a sudden, she'll just... Or change the words or make fun of it.

And so then, it just grinds my gears. I'm like, why can't you just either sing the beautiful normal words or just sit in silence? Have you ever considered she might be singing a song by the Fat Boys, in which case going... would be perfectly appropriate. How you doing, Linda good fantastic megan she's down there steady planking at one point you were going to speak let's go back to that okay um well also part of the problem is that i don't even have to say

anything before i ruin a song for Laura. And I do try to be conscious of certain songs that she is sensitive to. What songs in particular? So Laura is an aerialist performer. So if she is going to be doing... Wait, hold on. A Judge John Hodgman litigant with circus skills? Do you also like board games, ma'am?

Very much so. Yeah. So, you know, if it's something that is meaningful for Laura, I try very hard my best to not sing different words or sing in a goofy voice, but I don't realize that I'm doing it most of the time, which is the issue is I don't, I can't always help. I'm sorry. What does this have to do with aerial artistry? If it's a song that she's performing to,

then she will say, don't sing to the song. That's the only thing I'll think about while I'm in the air is you singing the weird way of the songs. Do you, before I ask what the song well what is the song uh well she's done several performances um she's done one to sylvan esso and who sure these are nonsense syllables this is not this is not huey lewis in the news sports i got there jesse sylvan esso durhamites know what sylvan esso is uh what is what is the song so it's called come down and it's one of their lesser known ones and it's acapella and it's just amelia singing over some weird like vibey electronic stuff so it's super soft and sweet and so the last thing i need when i'm 18 feet in the air doing this very serious piece it's megan in the back of my head going

i'm just so you mostly do scott stapp voice honestly i don't know because i don't even always realize that i'm doing it she'll just be like megan you're doing it megan says that you have a beautiful voice but that you sometimes go and whatever how do you is that true and are you are you moving into weird voice on purpose obviously we're going to hear demo of good voice and weird voice but I just like what's going on definitely there is a combination and like I said I don't even always realize that I'm doing it. So I'm probably doing it by myself in the car. Yeah, I'll be either just singing on purpose.

And if either I don't know the words or if there's a natural pause in the song, I'm like, this needs a little rapping in the middle. You know, then something comes out. I can guarantee that's not true. We did submit some evidence. I don't know if it's available. Oh, yes, of course. Let's see. But it's not true. We did submit some evidence. I don't know if it's available. Oh, yes, of course. Let's see.

But it's not. Let the record show that there is a beautiful photo of Megan and Laura levitating. In Long Island. You're an incredible aerialist. You're doing that without a trapeze or anything. Yeah, she's holding me up. No silks or whatever.

Right. Yeah, right. There is a. No silks or whatever. Right. There is a picture of Megan. This is not this one, unfortunately. Next slide, then. This is a picture of someone stealing. That's me. That's Megan stealing an hors d'oeuvre or a cookie. A cookie at our sister's wedding. And this demonstrates Megan's

just commitment to whimsy and... I thought it was commitment to whimsy and... I thought it was going to be lack of impulse control. Yes! It's kind of the same thing. Correct, yes. It's actually also not the picture I was thinking. Well, let's see. It's coming. Oh, that's...

That's a dog dressed as a gosh darn rainbow! Linda, are you okay? Oh, but he's also... Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney,

is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. Dressed as the Joker from the movie The Joker. He doesn't care for society's conventions. What does this represent? So this is my dog, Quincy. He's a 10-year-old toy poodle rescue. Lovely.

And it demonstrates that I, too, have a sense of whimsy, and I'm not a whatever you called me at the beginning, controlling... Obsessed with control and resentful of younger, freer people because you lived your entire life under the pressure to be the good one. Yeah, my dog's a rainbow. John, she's got a point. The dog's a rainbow.

Me thinks thou doth dress your dog up too much. And is there any other evidence that you wish to share? No, we don't. Oh, that's okay. There actually was a picture of Megan singing Wind Beneath My Wings as she made a hole-in-one in mini-golf. Yeah.

So, but... Well, a picture of that would not be as good as Megan singing it now. Obviously, you care very much about each other. Yes. Right? Yes, yes. And you spend a lot of time together,

or else this wouldn't be an issue. Right. If you were estranged, you would never hear her sing sing again and if I were to rule in your favor that's exactly what's gonna happen you'll never hear her sing again there's gotta be a middle ground no no middle child no middle ground you're the one who brought this case no you are I are. I did, yes. So sing to your sister, Wind Beneath My Wings,

and we'll decide. Sure, okay. That was a total fake throat clear, by the way. It was. Ha-hem. Ha-hem. Me, me, me, me, me. Me, me.

Open pit barbecue sauce. All right. Me, me, me, me, me, me. Open pit barbecue sauce. All right. Did I ever tell you you're my hero? You're everything I wish I could be. I could fly higher than an eagle because you are the wind beneath my wings

Nailed it. Even the woman who was planking managed to applaud. I do not understand how you could be ruining any song. That wasn't a ruining example. How about I'll sing the song and then you ruin it?

All right, I'll allow it. Quickly now. Did I ever tell you you're my hero? You're my hero, baby, yeah. Oh, wow. Nailed it again. Reverse nailed it. I find in Megan's favor, sing whenever you want.

Yes! Please welcome Allie and Karen. Allie and Karen, please come to the stage. Oh, but tis the season of giving. You have also brought something to the court. Oh, but tis the season of giving. You have also brought something to the court.

I sure have. And probably not drugs, right? Not this time, sorry. Oh, all right. Who seeks justice before the court, please? I seek justice before the court. And you are? I'm Allie. Allie, and you must be Karen. Yes. Allie, what is the nature of the dispute and the reason for these two beautiful cakes out here? My favorite sister in the whole world, and I must be Karen. Yes. Allie, what is the nature of the dispute and the reason for these two beautiful cakes out here? My favorite sister in the whole world, and I have a whole bunch. I love her so much. Wait, what?

I have a whole bunch. I would do anything for her on her birthday, and she is very inflexible about the cake that she wants. She's very inflexible about the cake that she wants. What cake do you want? Yellow cake from a box with chocolate frosting from a can. That's a classic, you understand.

Allie, that's a classic. It's a disgusting classic. Yeah, but it's Karen's birthday. It's not funfetti. I understand that. But I can make any cake. And my cakes are so delicious that she has told me on other occasions that she would invite the cake into her marriage.

And her husband's okay with it. She would bring the cake into her marital bed? No, I would marry the cake and have an extra spouse. A spouse cake? Yes, just her cakes. Karen, is Allie a really good baker? She is. Okay.

Does Allie make you cakes other times of the year? Sometimes. What kinds of cakes does she make? She makes a lot of different things, chocolate tortes. She doesn't always make cakes, but she makes a lot of dinners. I don't ever cook anything, so if there's a family event, a lot of the cooking comes from her, and she's a very good cook. Right. And you brought some evidence to the

court here? I did. Let's take a look on the screen. Okay, this is some David Cronenbergian body horror, I believe. Looks like a writhing mass of wounded flesh pierced with flaming knives. I'm just kidding. It's a bird's eye view of a cake. What kind of cake is it? That would be the bad cake. It's a videodrome cake. Why? Yeah.

Oh, this is the bad cake? This is the bad cake, yes. Oh, this is your yellow cake from a box, chocolate frosting from a can, shot from above. Yes. This is the bad cake. Oh, this is your yellow cake from a box, chocolate frosting from a can, shot from above. Yes. Okay, so, right. And by the way, candles, very haphazard.

Is that part of the deal? It's an A for my sister April and a heart. Oh. I mean, sort of. Yeah. Yeah. You could get a little pastry bag and do a little piping, and it'll look a lot neater. I don't own one.

She can't do that. No, I know. But this is the cake that you made yourself. Yeah. For your other sister, April. Yes. Right. Okay.

Gotcha. Yeah. And your many, many sisters. There's a lot. How many are there? There are many less preferred sisters. Yeah. There's five girls and one boy.

Wowee. Yeah. All right. So let's go to the next slide, please. This is a dark chocolate cake with raspberries on it. It's five girls and one boy. Wowee. Yeah. All right, so let's go to the next slide, please. This is a dark chocolate cake with raspberries on it. It's a chocolate torte.

A chocolate torte. Oh, pardon me. I apologize. With chocolate ganache and fresh raspberries. This is something that you made. Yes. Allie, for Karen?

I make it for Karen and anyone else who wants to enjoy it, including you. It looks very good. Nice work. Thanks. It does not look like a David Cronenberg horror movie.

No. I'll say that. Next slide, please. Oh, there we go. That's it. So the evidence is you make beautiful-looking cakes, and they're delicious. I do.

And you want to make your sister a cake for her birthday that is not the junk cake that she desires. Right. And do you have a birthday coming up anytime soon? No. Okay. Would you say you have one coming up in the next year or so? I was going to say,

Allie, it seems like case closed. Your sister has stopped aging, so it doesn't matter anymore. That's right. For Karen's next birthday, whenever it may be, what cake do you propose to make instead of her favorite? Any other cake from scratch. I've offered to make that cake for her from scratch. Yellow cake from scratch.

Pound cake. The exact cake. The exact cake. Okay, now you've got a case. Now you've got a case. Just not from a box. Right. An exact from scratch yellow cake with chocolate frosting. This is not acceptable to you, Karen?

No. All right. Why do you have these two cakes here? Okay, so that you can taste test the cakes so you can see the true. So you have junk cake and a different? Yeah, I have trash cake and delicious tort. I normally do not eat sweets. I do not have a sweet tooth.

I understand that. I have an alcohol molar. I know. I accounted for that. What is this that you're offering me? Johnny Walker Blue Label drugs! Drugs! Thank you. You're welcome. Oh.

Thank you. You're welcome. It's a very kind gift, but as this is the season of giving, there you go, child. Take this whiskey. I'm a man with a mustache. Take this whiskey.

All right. So the cake I'm holding is chocolate torte with raspberries made by you, Allie. And chocolate ganache. All right. So the cake I'm holding is chocolate torte with raspberries made by you, Allie. And chocolate ganache. All right. I'm sorry I forgot the ganache. Again. Maybe this is why your sister doesn't want to have you make one of these cakes. Yeah.

I hope you're appreciating the dusting of cocoa. There is dusting of cocoa. Of course there the dusting of cocoa. There is dusting of cocoa. Of course there's dusting of cocoa. Linda, how you doing? Good. Yeah, okay. And this is trash cake. Yes, from a box mix.

Legit trash cake. Right. Not Allie's take on trash cake. No. All right. Frosting from a can. John is inserting a fork into the trash can. First, I'm

getting that bite ready. Preparing a bite. Preparing a raspberry and all. That looks like a chocolate ganache to me. Now, the fact is, I'm actually on the road. You have to be careful about what you eat. I'm eating no carbs at this time. So I'm going to give this to Linda and she'll decide. Yeah.

Linda is planking and chewing. Hi, Linda. I'm sideline reporter Jesse Thorne. She wants the bourbon now. Yeah. Linda. No, the child can't give up his bourbon.

How dare you? I'll buy you a drink after the show. Don't worry. What did you say, young man? You don't need it? Do you want to give it to this nice lady? After going through this experience, you'll need it later.

Let the record show, Linda expertly and swiftly planked over. It is not bourbon, technically. It is one of the finest blended whiskeys, and it's very delicious, and I hope you enjoy it. She planked over there like nature's greatest planker, the iguana. All right, Linda, Here is the trash cake.

Linda, how's that chew? Linda's doing her chewing now. I want to give her an opportunity. John, can you grab the milk for Linda? It's a good idea. She's going to have to cleanse her palate here. Is there a straw available? It's okay.

She can drink it while planking. Producer Hannah, could you come out here? I've only got one hand. I can't open a bottle of milk. I can open it. Our producer Hannah Smith, folks. Okay, now Linda is drinking the milk while planking.

NSP, never stop planking. Jesse, would you hold the microphone to Linda so that I may ask her some questions? Yes. Linda, which of those two cakes did you enjoy more? I'm the wrong person to ask. I will always choose nasty cake. Surprise decision from Linda.

But that wasn't the ruling. That was just, which did she enjoy more? It's subjective. Linda happens to be like your sister. She loves trash cake. This is a beautiful cake. No one can deny this is a beautiful cake. But Linda, in your opinion, on someone's birthday,

should they have the trash cake they want or the chocolate ganache their sister wants to force on them? Trash cake you want. Trash cake you want. I'm afraid. I'm sorry, Allie. You're a very generous sister But birthdays are birthdays after all I find in Karen's favor

We have a tradition in Swift Justice The segment cannot end Until The person planking Drinks some blended whiskey Out of a small bottle. I don't think you should be... Can she open it?

Holy cow! She's opening it with her mouth like an alcoholic iguana. Where's Bridget? Where's Bridget? In absentia, I find in Linda's favor. I find in Ali's favor. That's swift justice. Ali Karen.

You may stop planking, madam. And the legendary Linda. You may stop. You may stop. Thank you. let's hear it for linda ladies and gentlemen if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-o-d-c-a-s-t-i hmm are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go,

call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself.

A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Our thanks to all of the litigants who shared their disputes with us in Durham, North Carolina, and of course, all of the folks who came out to the show. We had a great time. I hope that you enjoyed listening to it. This episode recorded by our friend Jeff Bird, native son of San Francisco, and produced by the great Hannah Smith.

Jesus Ambrosio is our editor. Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. Hashtag your judge, John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJHO. And check out the Maximum Fun subreddit. That's at MaximumFun.reddit.com to chat about this week's episode. We're on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. Make sure to follow us there

for evidence and other fun stuff. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Audience supported.