Judge John Hodgman - Lorelai-ing Under Oath

Episode Date: September 9, 2026

Dustin brings the case against his wife, Erin. Before they got married, Dustin agreed to watch Gilmore Girls with Erin - if SHE would read the first book in the Wheel of Time Series. Ten years later, Dustin has watched Gilmore Girls in its entirety several times. But Erin still has not read ONE Wheel of Time! Does Erin “owe” Dustin? Or is watching a cozy cute show that they both enjoy not comparable to Erin slogging through a fantasy series that has failed to hold her interest? With Guest Bailiff Monte Belmonte!Thank you to u/MDDad333 for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! ---Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Summertime, fun time guest bailiff, Monty, filling in for Jesse Thorne. This week, Laura lying under oath. Dustin brings the case against his wife, Aaron. Before they got married, Dustin agreed to watch Gilmore Girls with Aaron if she would read the first book in the Wheel of Time series. Well, the Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass leaving memories that become legend.

Oh, no. Legends fade to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again. In one age, called the 10th year of their marriage by some, an age yet to come, an age long past. Dustin has kept his promise and watched those Aisadai from Stars Hollow, Connecticut, known as the Gilmore Girls, in its entirety several times, through several turns of the wheel. But Aaron has not read the first book in The Wheel of Time, known as the Eye of the World. Dustin says the Gilmore girls have become Tavirin, weaving into his life when he didn't know he needed them. He'd love for the Wheel of Time to become part of Aaron's life, too. But Aaron says, blood and bloody ashes, don't tell me what to read.

Who's right? Who's wrong? Only the one power can decide. please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Monty Belmont, you think you're the only one

who can make a meal out of this? You're the only one who can make a king's feast out of this? If anybody else can do it, it's you John Hamburger helper Hodgman. All right, let me see if I can get into my character here. Where is Hodgman's justice? I stand accused, you say, very well.

I demand a trial. let me speak and let my truth or falsehoods be judged openly in the sight of gods or whatever and men. Summertime guest time sometimes. I did the line and I can't even say your name. Somertime, fun time guest bail of Monty, Belmontie. Please swear the litigants in. Dustin and Aaron. Please rise and raise your right hands, not your left hand,

as that would be offensive to the dragon reborn, Randall Thorne, whose hand was burned. All right, all right. Do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you the madness of the dark ones taint on sidene or the WB or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that Hodgman is such

a high fantasy nerd that he is the reason I read all of the Dune books, at least the ones that Frank Herbert wrote himself? And he gifted me a signed copy of Game of Thrones, which we all know is actually. not the name of the series, but is the name of the first book of the Song of Ice and Fire? I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Not even the name of the first book. A Game of Thrones.

A Game of Thrones. A Game of Thrones. A Game of Thrones. Yes. Using the dictionary definition of a, discovered by our friend Emily Brewster, or Marion Webster, if I'm not mistaken. She did define a definition of a.

What's more? This is a family tolerant podcast. we've never gotten an explicit label on your podcast devices. And you're already sullying this with the dark ones taint right from the beginning? It sounds dirty, but it's not. Dustin and Aaron, you may be seated. Thank you for being here, Monty. We'll talk to you in a minute.

Dustin and Aaron, that was the obscure cultural reference. There were many of them there. There was one that I said. And, Monty, you may not know this since you're joining us here at Summer's End. Winter is coming, as they say. Yes. But we're switching it up a little bit. We're switching it up a little bit in two ways.

One, you find me here in my, not only my summer's end chambers, but what will go on in some version of this or another to be determined, to be my autumnal chambers, as I refuse to leave the state of Maine for the time being. And also, we're doing things a little bit different with the obscure cultural reference. Some of the listeners may have picked up on this, Dustin Aaron, maybe you have. I've said the obscure cultural reference, but I'm not going to ask. you to guess right now. You're going to guess before I make my verdict. You have a chance to steal for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors, but not now. Later, I counsel patience.

For now, we're going to get right into this case. Who brings this case before Judge John Hodgman today? I do. Dustin, you submitted this dispute. Yes, Your Honor. Why are you trying to force your wife to read. I'm not trying to force her to read anything because she is quite an avid reader when she has the time, often staying up till three in the morning reading books. I am trying to introduce her to a series that I think that she will end up enjoying based on information that I've learned about her since we've been married, even though this was a guess I made in our first year of living together. But I think that if she read the first

book, she would come to love the characters and then she could follow on by reading the next 13 books, thereby consuming significant amounts of her time. What are you trying to force your wife to read? So I am trying to force my wife to read the first book of the Will of Time series called The Eye of the World because we made a deal. that she would read it, and I upheld my end. And also, I think that she would really enjoy the series once she gets into it. I think that she would like the characters and all the different cultures that are in the book. I think she would find very fascinating.

And it would take up just a lot of her time, so she would be busy doing stuff. It would take up a lot of her time. Great. Yes. Let me ask you this question, to that point. This is the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. Am I remembered correctly? Yes.

Right. And how many books are in the series? So there are 13 or 14 books in the series. Robert Jordan did pass away prior to finishing the books. So the final three were written by Brandon Sanderson based on Robert Jordan's notes. How many did Robert Jordan write? 11. There are 13 or 14.

14 books? Yes, there are 13 books. 13 books. All right. Well, Erin, I haven't even asked you a question yet, but you're off the hook. I find in your favor, you don't have to read these books. Thank you. No, Aaron, you are an avid reader, though.

Correct? Yes. You're both sporting some T-shirts, which I cannot see, because your image is too small for me to read it. And, by the way, people who are not watching on YouTube won't be able to read it either because they're listening, which is fine. Listen with your ears if you must, but if you want to watch with your eyes, please go to our YouTube channel at Judge John Hodgman Pod. What are your t-shirts say? Are they literary in nature?

So mine is a hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy book cover made into a t-shirt. Yeah, figures. And mine says, I married into this. Too true. You know what? She's beating you on the wardrobe arguments already. She is. She made a good choice on that one.

Aaron, you and Dustin R. married? Yes. How did you meet? In Hawaii, he was in the military and I was working out there. Okay. Do you want to say what you were doing or is it classified? I'm a teacher. I was teaching out there and he was in the military and we had a party and my friend invited him to our party. Very nice. And how long ago was that? 2011. Wonderful. Yes. So Aaron, you love to read, correct? That's what I hear? Yes. And why don't you want to read 14 books of fantasy that your husband is forcing you to do to take up your time?

So as a teacher, I have to read lots of books that my students are reading. We also have young kids at the house, so I tend to read books with them. So when I read for fun, I would like it to be something I want to read. What sort of things do you enjoy reading? Fantasy novels that only come in series of seven or nine? I mean, I do like reading some fantasy, but like romantasy, lighthearted fantasy, not so much the high fantasy type of stories. I'm going to say something that's going to make a lot of listeners pretty mad with me. I've never read The Wheel of Time stuff at all, not even one, not even one spoke.

What kind of fantasy novels do you recommend, Aaron? What do you like there? The fourth wing? Yeah. I got to read that book. Everyone loves it. Pretty good. It's got dragons in it, right?

It does. Dragons and schools. Challenges. Yeah. You don't want to read homework that Dustin gives you. I understand. But it says here you entered into a contract. A deal.

A deal? Dustin, explain the deal. So this was when we were first living together in Colorado. And Aaron is from Southern California and has no idea what winter is about. And Colorado winter does she know it's coming at least? She does now, yes.

But the first winter, she was at a loss for what to do, and I think she also wanted something comforting because she was in a new place. And she wanted to watch Gilmore Girls, which I had never seen, did not strike me as something that I wanted to see personally.

but I made a deal with her that we could watch together all seven seasons of Gilmore Girls because it was on Netflix over that winter. Sure. And in exchange for that, I asked that she read just the first book of the Wheel of Time, obviously hoping that she would get hooked on it and choose to read the rest

or that I would find other bargains that I can make with her later. But we watched the show. The entirety of the show that winter, probably over like a month or two. And so I feel like I completed my part of the bargain there. Dustin, this bargain that you made. One fantasy book for a entire series of television. Was this your original idea or did you take it from somebody?

I believe this was my original idea. I thought that, you know, in length of time, it's maybe a bit unbalanced, but watching a TV show is a much more powerful. than reading a several hundred-page tome. You just had this idea originally. You didn't steal it from, say, a podcaster? Whose podcast you might be on?

I don't think that I did, Your Honor. I don't know that we had started listening to the show at that point in time, I'm afraid to say. Well, I'll explain a little bit more about that later, but let me just say the serendipity is almost magical. All right. dealing with Gilmore Girls and the Wheel of Time. Aaron, tell me a little bit about the double G's, Gilmore Girls.

Rory and Lorelei, Stars Hollow, Connecticut. Give me a little background on this because I've watched a little of it, but not a lot of love it, not a lot to really love it, though I am not against it. What's your love for the Gilmore Girls? and why should Dustin watch it? Or why should, I mean, Dustin did watch it, but why did you want Dustin to watch it in particular? So I started watching it in high school.

It was kind of like a comfort show. Yeah. It's about a girl and her mom and kind of adventures and things that they do. Yeah. It has like a fally feel to it in Connecticut, or set in Connecticut. And I'm from L.A.,

and then I lived in Hawaii, where it doesn't, we don't have really have seasons. Right. So I was like, oh, fall. Like, it's winter and cold in Colorado. Those kind of match. Yeah. Let's watch like a fall comforting show.

And so I was like, hey, let's watch this thing. It's kind of fun. It's cold. I don't like it out here. Had you seen it all already before? I had seen it before. It's one of your favorite things. Yeah.

And it takes place in Connecticut. And I believe that Rory, the daughter of Lorelei, who plays the single mom. They lived together in this big old rambling house in Connecticut, which was a thing that people used to have. And then she goes to Yale University, isn't that correct?

Yes. That was the thing. That's why I dropped off of Gilmore Girls. They didn't get to Yale fast enough. And Dustin, did you enjoy it or did you not enjoy it? I did enjoy it. I think at first there was a lot about it that irritated me.

Honestly, like you, I wanted it to get to the college years. Or now when we rewatch it, I want to get to the college years faster because I think the show gets better. They say it's set in a small town. Yeah. In the winter, a lot. And I got to say, they get so much about both small towns and winter wrong. I would point out a lot of these issues to Aaron throughout watching it. You were winter fact checking?

Yes. Yulmore girls? Yes. You were seasonally shaming the show? Yeah, they say it's winter, their breath is never frosting, they constantly have their jackets open, it's a constant sunny L.A. weather. Oh, so wait a minute. You met in Hawaii. Aaron, you're from Southern California. You moved to Colorado. Now you're somewhere else in the world. But where are you from, Dustin? Wintertown, USA? Where are you from? I am from a small town in Nebraska. Yeah, so you know winter. You know cold. Yes. You get snow in the winter, right? For real, right? Nebraska. We did. It's a little less frequently now.

Thanks to... Oh, just thanks to normal natural changes that are not human affected at all. The natural warming of the weather. I think that it's true that a lot of Gilmore Girl watchers who have not been to New England fantasized that that is what New England is. So you didn't love the Gilmore Girls primarily because it depicted winter wrong. That really stuck out to me at first. Yeah, that's fine.

But after watching seven seasons... of it, I did come to really love the characters, and the dialogue is very well written. And once they introduced more of Emily Gilmore, the grandmother and Richard, I really love the stories with them. And it has become a show that now, as fall and winter rolls around, I find myself wanting to watch it at least as much as Aaron does. So, Aaron, this was a real win for you in your marriage. You got Dustin to not only watch a show that you love. You got him to sit through some of the, you know, the creakier early episodes that all shows have. You got him past his frustration with its poor depiction of winter.

But now he loves it and he watches it with you every year. Why not just read The Wheel of Time? Did you even try? So I did. I tried to listen to it the first time around. and I got to a point where I was like listening to it and I just didn't know what was happening. It was like on in the background

and I'd like read a whole or listened to a whole chapter and I'm like I don't know what that chapter was about at all. So I kind of stopped there. Who was doing the audiobook narration? Was it Monty Belmontie? I wish. So Monty Belmontie, you obviously know about the wheel of time but for those of you who don't know Monty

He is our wonderful regular summertime, fun time guest, bailiff here in the Court of Judge John Hodgman. A dear personal friend at the time when I used to spend a lot of time in western Massachusetts, which is indeed in New England, a wintertime fun spot. He is the host every afternoon of New England Public Media's wonderful radio magazine show with Kalees Smith called The Fabulous 413. Listen to it every afternoon at NEPM.org. Monty, what is the wheel of time all about? It's about the dragon reborn. Randall Thor. It's the hero's journey.

It's about darkness and light. And who can contain the darkness? Is there a plot? Can you just tell me the plot? Yes, Randall Thor, is he the dragon reborn? Or is he not? Will he be able to... How old is he?

He's like, I say early 20s. I can't remember exactly. It's been like 10 years since I read these books. I did it to brush up getting ready for this. May I presume that he is something of a lowborn, modest fellow who no one thinks very much of, but has actually been chosen by destiny to become a reborn dragon or some thing? You've got the gist of the whole thing. Why is it called Wheel of Time?

The books all start about the cyclical nature of their universe and how the darkness and light are constantly fighting for control and the Wheel of Time turns over again into a new age, and the same struggles begin again. Is it sort of about how all fantasy novels are about the same dumb thing? Yeah, they're all basically J.R.R. Tolkien told in different ways. So, yeah. Oh, I'm going to get something lies now. If you like J.R.R. Tolkien, who defined this genre, as far as I'm concerned,

you might also like the Wheel of Time if you want to mess around with some other characters. Is it fun? Is it mesmerizing? Is it 14 novels worth of good times in dragon fights or whatever? Well, I do audiobooks because I have a long commute, so I can take any length of series and just destroy it. I listen to it on two-time speed, so it's worth it to me. But I mean, the book's good, is what I'm asking. So I was reluctant to. I mean, judged on volume, obviously, the Wheel of Time triumphs in terms of sheer weight of words.

But it's fun. Is it fun to read? Yeah, absolutely. Now, Aaron, Monty listened to it as an audiobook at two times speed. Yes. But Monty, you were doing this on long drives when all of your attention was being paid. Obviously, first of all to the road and the safety of yourself, your passengers and other vehicles on the road, but then also to Robert Jordan going on and on about dragon stuff.

Yeah, it might have been the other way around sometimes. But, Aaron, you were listening sort of with it in the background, right? Yes. Right. Did you ever try sitting down and reading it or? I don't know, sitting in this very special room that Dustin made for you that where all the windows were blacked out and all you had to think about was the wheel of time. So I tried to listen to it. It didn't work. So later, a couple of years later, I think we had a kid at this point.

And, you know, in infant stages where they're just kind of laying around and hanging out, I would sit and read the book. Yeah. So I did try and I didn't get very far. How many times would you say you tried? I think it's just twice. And how far would you say you got? I want to say a chapter five of, I presume, in the first cycle of the first period of the ninth book of the wheel of time. That would be chapter 5, 119.

Yeah. Pretty early on in the book you gave up. Yeah, not very far. And both times. So you tried it on audio. You tried it on paper, right? Did I understand that correctly? Yes.

And how long ago was that? Ten years? Ten years ago. Ten years the first time in probably like seven-ish years, the second time. And so, and how many times have you watched Gilmore Girls over that period of time, the whole series? Three or four times we've made it through the entire series. Yeah. Well, you have to admit, four watch-throughs of the Gilmore Girls is still ten fewer novels than this book series.

Yes. Yeah. Dustin, it says here that you told our wonderful producer, Jennifer Marmer, Aaron has made this a part of my life when it didn't need to be. What does that mean? As I said, like, it comes up in the fall that I have this now desire of let's put on this comfort fall show. We have some decor about Stars Hollow in the house that I have bought. I am on the Gilmore Girls subreddit frequently arguing with people that think, particularly that

think Emily is a terrible toxic person. It is now part of my headspace that I can pair things to storylines in Gilmore Girls. You know, I think about it. And it is not something, again, that really needed to be taking space in my head, but I can't get it out. And it's it's just part of me now. Do you feel resentful that Gilmore Girls has turned you into a Gilmore dude? Or is it, does it feel nice to have this to share with your wonderful wife, Aaron? Can it be both? Very, very well said.

I do have a note from our producer, Jennifer Marmer. I don't know all this Gilmore Girls stuff, but I'm not deep in the lore. But I have a feeling you're going to know what this question means. Dustin, are you team Dean, team Jess, or team Logan? I used to be Team Jess, and now I am Team Logan after that changed down like the second watch through. Well, I'll pose the same question to Aaron. Team Dean, Team Jess, or Team Logan? I was going to say Team Jess.

No one likes Dean. No. I don't even know anything about Dean, but I just know no one like Dean. Dustin, are you Team Logain, who is a character in the Wheel of Time? Whoa. Absolutely. Low gain all the way. Aaron, you said team Jess, I mean,

doesn't it feel a little unfair that you've let Dustin down in this way, Aaron? So I started the show. A real-time show came out, and I was willing to watch that. I believe it was canceled before the first episode finished. I think it had two seasons.

Did it have two seasons? Was it any good, Monty? Did you watch it? I watched it, and then I had to stop because I couldn't accept that it wasn't close enough to the books, and I just let it go. It was some great acting in it. There was some good parts of it, but I just, I couldn't do it. Dustin had the same opinion. I have received some evidence in this case.

These images, of course, will be available on our show page at maximum fund.org. You're watching on YouTube. You can see them right now. You can check us out on social media as well. And some of the evidence here is the complete collection of the wheel. of time books. Who submitted this evidence? Dustin, or Aaron? I did, Your Honor. All right. And this was supposed to move me, how? I just wanted to demonstrate that if Aaron does read the book and, like the first one, I already have available for her the next collection. So she doesn't have to go

anywhere or spend any money. They're right there waiting for her. I don't think that this case will hinge on the relative scarcity of copies of the Wheel of Time Press. Pretty sure, pretty sure you can pick them up in any library. Oftentimes, maybe outside the library in a

cardboard box. That's rude. You can send me a letter for that one. But it says in this caption here, I contend that after reading the first book, Aaron will likely fall in love with the series and immediately want to devour the rest. But she did not read it

and she did not fall in love. People like what they like in the Court of Judge John Hodgman, and they love what they love, and they don't love what they don't love. Why do you keep trying? This has been, what, 10 years, right? Yes. I feel like the first book is really the opening to a great world. And I think the first couple chapters just aren't enough to deliver on that promise.

Sure, sure. But Aaron knows her own mind, doesn't she? Yes, I do. Thank you, Aaron. Do you agree? I'd like Dustin to agree. Yes, I do. I felt it better if she just answered for herself. No, I'm glad perfectly. I mean, by now, she's tried twice. Can't you just trust that it's not for her? I mean, I know you love it. And I believe that it is lovable. And Dustin, you too are lovable.

Thank you, Your Honor. As I'm sure Aaron agrees. Dustin, you can answer for Aaron on that one. Yes, she does find me adorable. That's good. Perfect. So why not just let it go? So at the end of the day, I think it comes down to we made a deal and we should do everything possible to uphold it. And yes, she made two attempts to read it.

I think that she should keep trying until she gets through it. Hey, I get it. A deal is a deal is a deal as a deal. And certainly by the letter of fake contract law, you have a very strong case. But I argue that your case might be stronger if you were able to articulate to me and Monty and Aaron and all the seven gods of Westrose,

why it would be emotionally meaningful for you if she were to join you on this journey around the wheel of time. I think it comes back to how much Gilmore Girls is now a common thing that we get to share, that we get to do together and we get to talk about, and debate again, you know, team Jess, team Logan, team Dean, who... Forget about Dean. We're all, we don't, no one's on Dean's side. Exactly. And we talk about that and it's part of our marriage now to have those discussions and share that piece of media that we now both really love, I guess I'll say.

And I think, you know, given its proper chance, I would love for wheel of time to be another thing. that we can share, that we can talk about the books. And, you know, there's a lot of mysteries in the, in the books. And there's, you know, Rand has three girlfriends. So you can argue if you're Team Elaine or Team Men or Team Avienda, right? It's a lot of those same dynamics that would be tons of fun. And then we could both talk about how terrible the TV show version of it was. Why don't you want to talk to Imavienda with your husband, Erin? Or let me put it this way. Aaron, how do you feel about what Dustin just said?

He wants to share this with you the same way that you guys share Gilmore girls together. So I feel like it's kind of like homework. We have other things that we also like and find in common. Oh, like what? Your love for your children? Well, that too. I mean, I watched all the Star Wars. That's something.

You like Star Wars? I don't think you have watched all the Star Wars. You watched all Star Trek. No, I watched all Star Wars. The movies. Dustin? Yes. Nitpicking with your spouse about Star Trek versus Star Wars will gain you no currency in this court.

I'm sorry, Your Honor. The Star Trek is a good point. Like, it is something that I recommended to her the next generation, and she watched all of it and loved it. And it did become a shared thing that we can talk about. And that's years and years and hours and hours of programming. Erin, you can tell everyone exactly why the next generation is not homework compared to the wheel of time. I have an idea. So watching something that you enjoy becomes fun and it becomes something that you want to do when you're looking forward to.

When you're reading something and it feels like homework, then reading the next part, becomes tedious. Yeah. And doesn't really draw in, like, joy. Let me ask, now, I'm only going through this door because you opened it. Aside from the wheel of time, has he ever recommended something else that was, I don't want to say bad, but bad to you or disappointing to you that you don't trust his judgment anymore? No, I think, I do think that some of his recommendations are kind of more, like, high fantasy or, like, kind of dark, where I prefer kind of more the lighthearted, like, like fun kind of things.

So I, like, he wants me to like a lot of the same things that he does. And like, I kind of do. But kind of going that deep into it is less interesting to me. For example, the Game of Thrones. Like, I liked the show. I'm sorry. Once again, it's a game of threat. My bad.

A Game of Thrones. I watched the show. And there was definitely like some episodes where I, kind of tuned out or I didn't really know what's happening or I kind of lost some characters. But once again, it's a show. Like if I missed a character here and there, I can kind of, you know, just continue on with it and figure it out later or not. A deal is a deal is a deal and you broke the deal.

I mean, let's be honest. I mean, did you make the agreement? Yes or no. Yes. And you tried. Yes. And you, I mean, did not hold up your end of the bargain. How does that make you feel?

I gave it the old college try. Right. Well, I mean, it's been 10 years, which is about two and a half college careers. It's been a long time. It's been a long time. How often does this still come up in your relationship? I think whenever I try to start a new, like, Romanticy or like another fantasy book that I'm like, ooh, this one looks interesting. He's like, hey, how about this one?

Oh, Dustin, I feel so bad for you. you're still trying Dustin why are you still trying I'm trying to close the loop on the deal so that we can move past it and still just desperately holding out hope that she will

connect with the characters and I and there are plenty of there are several really good female characters who also get to go on hero's journeys in Wheel of Time all right I believe you.

You want to close the loop? You want to close the wheel, as it were. Yes, and that's a better analogy. I mean, time is cyclical in some ways, but in other ways, it really isn't. It moves in one direction. We do not start back at the beginning again. You mentioned that you had a kid, children? Yes, two.

Two. too and that you were trying on the wheel of time the second time already caught in your own time loop as it were Aaron when you're one of your children was like an infant or something right correct so now how old are these kids now if you even know nine and seven do you feel you're in a different place as a reader now than you were before definitely is anything else changed in your life yeah a lot of things We've moved what? We've lived in like six different states now. I'm teaching. The kids are in school. They are, you know, their own interests in reading and books. Do you think there's, do you think that there's a possibility, a small chance even that at this later point in the wheel of time, if you re-approach these books, you might have a different experience with them? Or book, I should say, because the deal is only the first book, right, Dustin? Yes. And is that true?

Yes, I feel like if she reads the entirety of the first book, then that is really giving the whole series a try. And if she says she's not into it after that, then she really got the full sense of what it promises. So if I were to rule in your favor, it would be one more time on the wheel of time. Yes, Your Honor. And if it doesn't take, in good faith, this time,

are you willing to let it go? Yes. And would you like me to order that you never watch Gilmore Girls again? No, I would be more sad than relieved by that, I'm afraid. Wow. Dustin, when you made this deal, why The Wheel of Time specifically? Is it your favorite book? What's going on? So it is certainly one of my favorite series.

And at the time, I thought that it would be one that Aaron would enjoy most of what I wanted to share with her. I read a lot of Stephen King, but I didn't think that would really be her jazz because she hates horror movies and stuff like that. But we've been watching the Game of Thrones show together, and she was really enjoying it. You're referring to the Game of Thrones show called Game of Thrones? Yes, Your Honor. Okay. I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

Yeah. That's right. Yes. We'd watch that. We'd watch Lord of the Rings together. She really liked it. And she likes Harry Potter and various. other fantasy things. So I thought that it would be, you know, something that bridged between our two

nerddom worlds. So you're saying that you chose a wheel, sorry, the wheel of time, not a wheel of time, the wheel of time, because you thought that Aaron might like it, not because it's like your absolute most favorite book in the world that you wish, if she read it, she would know you better? That's correct. Is there a book that is like that for you? Probably my favorite books would be either Lonesome Dove or Dune. I have never recommended Dune to Aaron, though she randomly started reading it last summer, which kind of blew my mind. That's exciting. That's an exciting moment in a marriage.

It was when I found out she was reading Dune. Did you finish reading Dune? I did not. I don't blame you. Took me a couple of times to get through it. I love it, but that's a harder one, I think. Yes. And you said Stephen King

Is there a Stephen King That is very meaningful to you? Probably it would be a big one Certainly Certainly very big Yes, that's a very big book And she does not generally like Much horror

Though she has liked a couple of Stephen King books That are lighter horror That we have either listened to together What was the other one but sex Dune That you love so much? I forget now. Lonesome Dove Stephen King's favorite book Yes. I think that's why I read it, because I take recommendations from people I respect.

Wow. So what does the series Wheel of Time mean to you other than seemed like a good idea for Aaron to read it? I started it, as I said, when I was 14 or 15, obviously a very formative time. I think I had just read Lord of the Rings not long before there. And so it was my first, you know, real introduction to this high. fantasy realm of interesting stories. And, you know, it was more complex, I think, than Lord of the Rings. Not as well-written or deep, maybe, but there was more political complexity and more going on. Yeah, I think it was just a really formative series that showed me the types of things that I like and that I have continued to enjoy reading and following since then. If Aaron can't get on board with the wheel of time, what will you be missing?

I think I'll just always feel like she misses out on this larger world. Like there, even if she doesn't finish the series, if she find things that she likes about it, there are, you know, other books that I could maybe recommend that are more in her wheelhouse. And it would give me more insight into what she likes and doesn't like if she has read the full thing as opposed to, you know, five chapters and then can't follow the characters, which I get. But it doesn't really tell me anything about what she liked or disliked about the series itself. But do you think that she'll be missing out on knowing something about you? I don't know that I would go that far.

I think she understands my nerdiness pretty well. Fair enough. Aaron, what if you love it? I mean, five chapters, not a lot of chapters. It's not. If I loved it, I would probably read more. but time is also difficult in our lives right now. Oh, but you said the kids were in school and reading on their own, which is all very good.

They are. And what's taking up your time now? I'm also in school and reading on my own. Oh, right. What are you studying for? So I'm a teacher, so I have to read everything my students are reading. Yeah, what level are you teaching? Middle school.

Middle school, fantastic. What are you teaching them? One of the books? Right now we're reading Ghost and we're born to start reading outsiders. Jesse Hinton, right? Ghost, I don't know. Is that about Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore and Clay? Whoopi Goldberg is a star.

Yeah. Do you allow your middle schoolers to read the hot pottery scene and ghost? Do you have to take that out? Skim over that part. I have a question for you. How old are these kids again, 10-ish? Seven and nine. Seven and nine.

Okay. How old were you, Dustin, when you first engaged with the wheel of time? Probably 14 or 15. That seems like prime time for Wheel of Time, right? 14, 15. Like seven and nine-year-olds, setting aside whether or not it's appropriate, would that be as boring to them as it was to your spouse? Our oldest will probably be ready to try in a year or two. she is a voracious reader of books,

and she has tried some older books like Watership Down. Oh. And Hell Chaser's song, which is a high fantasy. She's working on Watership Down now. She hasn't got through it. I tried to read that book when I was about nine, and I could not get into it until I was, honestly, until I was in my early 20s.

Somehow themes of mortality force migrable. and dictatorship resonated with me more then. She's reading it because it's about animals, and she'll read just about anything about animals. Monty, you ever run with the Thousand? Do you ever mess with Watership Down? I never have read it, but I was traumatized by the animated movie. I send you all, all of you listening to read Watership Down within the year.

Okay. That's my first ruling. I'm writing it Watership Down. That's right. Write it right down there. All right, Aaron, if I were to rule in your favor, you want Dustin to drop this forever, right? Yes. All right.

And Dustin, if I were to rule in your favor, what? Keep to the deal, read the first book, and then you'll never bother her about it again? Yes. Okay, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I am myself now going to go on my own hero's journey into my thinking chamber, and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Dustin and Aaron. Dustin, I am of obviously, if you've been listening to this podcast, a fan of Wheel of Time,

but I have not watched one episode of Gilmore Girls. Should I? Yes, absolutely. And I recommend that you just start at like season three or four after the loose, the shagginess has worn off. It's a much better show. I'm a completest, so I don't think I can do this. that I'd have to start at the beginning and muscle through it.

Well, one episode is probably not going to get you hooked. Just like, you know, one chapter of Wheel of Time won't get you hooked. Does Wheel of Time live in your head in the same way that Gilmore Girls lives in your head? Yes. I've probably read the series three or four times. I used to read it whenever a new book was going to come out. I would read all the preceding books. Wow.

And then I read it probably twice since it concluded. That's amazing. Now, Erin, what if Dustin read the book out loud to you as opposed to an audio book as a sort of couple-building time together? I read out an entire young adult fantasy series to my wife and everyone in my family, which I shall not name right now. But I bet you can guess which one it is. And it was a good way to do it. What about if you read it to you? I mean, I think if you read it to me, that would be fine.

Does, do I have to listen to the whole thing? Can I, like, tune out half of it? Well, that's the other thing. For a part of it and walk away for their part of it. The other thing I want to say is you should give yourself permission to tune out of those things. It's just a fantasy novel. You don't need to memorize all of the things that are going to happen.

And a good writer will get you caught back up for all the things you might have missed anyway. So forgive yourself. Give yourself a little permission to tune out once in a while. I think it's fine. But we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back. in just a moment. Monty, we're taking a break from the case.

What is going on with you in The Fabulous 413? I'm speaking, of course, to the Western Massachusetts Zip Code, where you co-host with Kalee Smith, the radio program, The Fabulous 413. Tell us all about it. It's a daily magazine-style show, a conversation show I like to say, where we explore the wonders of the area code

that consumes the four counties of Western Massachusetts. We're officially... Franklin. Hampshire, the other two. Yep. One of them is easy enough that you should know, probably Berkshire. Berkshire. They're so big.

And then Hamden County in Springfield is that. Yeah, that's where I am right now. Yeah, we get talks with farmers and Merriam-Webster editors and our Congress people. We do weekly wine tastings. We have musical guests that come by all the time. We're playing in some of the great venues in the area. And coming up in the fall will once again be raising money for our Food Bank of Western Mass, where I will walk the length of three of the four counties for the March for the Food Bank.

Everyone should go listen to The Fabulous 413 at NEPM.org. That's New England Public Media. And is it available as a podcast? Absolutely. Wherever you get your podcast. So don't listen to Judge John Hodman first and then you can listen to the Fabulous 413 after. You know what?

I'll say alternate every five minutes as far as I'm concerned. It's a wonderful program. and it's terrific local public radio that has a universal appeal. Because you know what, Monty, you're universally appealing to me. I'm so grateful that you were able to come and join us today. It's my honor, your honor. As for me, please make sure to go to Maximumfund.org and subscribe to the other podcast that I contribute to, e-pluribus motto with Janet Varney, where we talk about

the official state mottos and mammals and munchies and monsters of more of every state Commonwealth District and Territory. And these, for now, United States, it's a fun road trip through weird state trivia. And Janet is a pure delight, as I'm sure you well know. We are gearing up to release season three soon. Season two was a real banger concluding on an incredible episode about North Dakota. There are a bunch of states that are already posted.

So please go and subscribe and take a listen and listen to season. three when it comes out. All right, let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. Okay, so first of all, you may be seated. Second of all, we got him come back to that obscure cultural reference. Do you remember what it was that I said when I entered the courtroom? Can you repeat it, please? Where is Hodgman's justice? I stand accused, you say, very well. I demand a trial. Let me speak and let my truth are falsehood be judged openly in sight of gods or whatever's and men. Dustin, do you have a guess? I do, Your Honor. What is your guess? I believe that is Tarian Lannister asking for a trial when he is

accused of killing Caitlin's son. I believe this is when he is being accused at the Erie. So in the book, A Game of Thrones. Okay, I'll write that down. Pretty solid guess. Aaron, you want to take a guess as to where that's from? I feel like I have to at this point guess Game of Thrones, a Game of Thrones somewhere. Any Game of Thrones will do. Somewhere in there.

Well, guess what? All guesses are right. One is more correct than the other. in its intense specificity, it was indeed Tyrion Lannister from the novel A Game of Thrones asking for a trial after being accused of murdering or attempting to murder, Brand Stark, Brandon Stark, the child in one of the early chapters of the book, and he is petitioning for trial by combat at the Erie, which of course is the castle, the home castle of the house of Aaron in the veil. But you didn't say what numbered

chapter. And nor would you easily know because the chapters are not numbered. But I had a feeling you might get this one, Dustin. And so I made sure to check my e-reader edition numbers this as chapter 38. And if you had known that even, I would have said what I said to a very close friend of mine recently. I know it seems like it should be Caitlin, but George R. Martin says, Cattelin. So, while you certainly acquitted yourself quite well, I am going to go ahead and rule on this case,

not prile by combat. I'm not letting any cell sword fight on your behalf in order to defeat my chosen champion in order for you to squeak out of this, Tyrion Lannister. you're going to feel the real justice of Judge John Hodgman here. But good job, both of you. I happen to have focused on that because I am indeed reading A Game of Thrones.

Here is the non-E reader copy that is in my life. And there is a bookmark here that's important, and I'll explain why in a moment. By the way, here we are at the final end of summer. Winter is coming, but first comes autumn. And on this day, I have been told electronically that the new gavel has arrived. We have a new gavel for the court that was made by Nick Offerman's woodshop out there in California. Nice. Cannot wait to see it.

It's been handcrafted, hand forged. It much like your precious sword, it marks me as a gavel master. but it's being held for me at a UPS facility about 40 minutes away from here. So I didn't get a chance to pick it up. So this is the last time that I will throw the book at one of you. In lieu of a gavel I've been using books that are in my life that I want to share with people

and throwing them at the person, I guess, who wins? I guess I should throw the book at the person who loses, but usually it's people who live together anyway, so who cares. So you will both get this copy of a Game of Thrones when it is finished and complete. So stand by. This amount of book will probably take two days to read because it moves along. Now, to whom shall I throw it at? That's the question.

The thing is, I can't wait to throw this book at both of you. If you haven't read it, I'm sure you have, Justin. but like all of the books, many of the books that we're talking about, when you, and TV shows, books are good. When books are good, particularly when books are good, or a big TV show like Gilmore Girls, you want to share it with people. You want to tell people about it. You become an evangelist for it. If it has moved you, if it has touched you, if it has seen you in some way, and there's someone that you care about in your life, You, despite what you said, Dustin, about like, well, I just thought it would be easier for her to read.

I have to imagine, Dustin, that in your heart, Aaron reading The Wheel of Time books would be meaningful to you because you get to share something that is meaningful to you, right? It's not just that you'd have something to do together. This was a part of your being a 13- or 14-year-old, someone, a person that she never got to meet originally, right? Unless I don't think you met when you were 13. No? No. No. No.

Now, I asked you if you had come up with this contract between you two, yourselves, or if you had stolen it from a podcaster, namely me. Because about 10 years ago, my wife, who's a whole human being in her own right, discovered a piece of culture that she loved very much. In this case, it was also a TV show. And this TV show was called Friday Night Lights. I believe it's actually called Friday Night Lights. about football. And she really wanted me to watch it with her. And I said, I don't want to watch that.

She said, I know it's about sports, but it's not about sports. I'm like, I know, but I just don't feel like watching that show. I don't know why I want to watch a show with my wife. It's a whole human being in her own right that has many, many, many, many more handsome men than I am in it. And also sports. I don't like it. It's not about sports. Everyone's sending me letters right now.

It's not about sports. I get it. I get it. Everyone's been telling me that TV shows and movies about sports aren't about sports for my whole life, and they've been telling me sports aren't about sports for my whole life. It's about the narrative. It's just not for me.

It just doesn't connect. Not for me, right? Now, I do like some TV shows about sports. Everyone should watch Shorzie. It's about hockey. That's a real sport. Set that aside. Ten years ago, more.

I'm supposed to watch Frayana Lights. I don't want to watch it, but I want to honor this request. And so I propose to my wife as wholly being an earned right, a deal, a contract, something that may sound familiar to you. I said, I will watch, this is true. And I've talked about it on the podcast before. That's why I asked you if maybe I had inspired you, but it turns out I mean nothing to you.

I will watch all of Friday night lights, all of it. Even that weird season that everyone talks about being too weird. In fact, tomorrow night, another Friday night lightsie is coming to our house. and I'm going to watch the first episode tomorrow, but at the time, I said, I will watch 10 years ago or more, I'll watch all of it. If you read the first book of a Game of Thrones series,

The Song of Ice and Fire, just read the first one. Now, is this a long book? Of course it is. You hear how heavy it was? I just dropped it. The whole camera moved. I was just been thinking about this book,

again, because I've been rereading it, as I mentioned. And the reason that I've been rereading it is this, 10 plus years ago, we make this deal. My wife's holding me in her room right, reads about five chapters, and throws it across the room. I said, no. Cannot get into this. I said, please, I promise you. A decade plus in the future, Dustin will say words that will echo through time.

If you just get to chapter 10 or whatever, you'll be happy. She tried. She really did try. And I had to acknowledge, this may have been one of the first. of the earliest cases of me coming up against people like what they like and they don't like what they don't like and forcing her to read more of it, right? Forcing her to read more of it was never going to work. And as a consequence, I've never seen Friday Night Lights. Nor have I ever seen Friday Night Lights, another fun show. And she's like, you should watch it. And year after

year, I'd be like, we had a deal. I will watch it. And then year after year after that, we never talked about it again because she came to understand it wasn't for me. And this wasn't for her. But wait a minute, everybody is saying, something's missing in this story. You're rereading a Game of Thrones. And you just said tomorrow night, when Sarah Reed comes to visit, who loves Friday night lights, you're going to watch Friday night lights. I thought you made a deal. I did make a deal. Because do you know what happened? This summer, in Maine, my wife, who's a whole human being and I,

we went to the YMCA together to work on our immortality project and become super people. There is a pile of books in the lobby every day. And one day, this book was there. And she picked it up. And this is how far she is into it. What? The time finally came. in her life

that she could engage with this and enjoy it. And by all accounts, which is to say specifically hers, she really is. Now, will she continue to enjoy it? I don't know, but she's plowing through it. I'm trying to keep up with her.

It's a remarkable thing that's happened. I never thought that it would. And, you know, it is now, I'm... It's 13 years later now that I think about it. So I guess I'm saying, Dustin, wait three more years. there is a great pleasure in feeling the wheel of time close in this way.

The time does move in one direction, but sometimes it does come around in an interesting way, right? And there is this tremendous pleasure in our relationship for me, and I think for her too, that, oh yeah, we're here again. In a different phase of our lives, our children are. our adults, we both have more time to read. They've moved on to other cities and lives. And the contract is being fulfilled. That is almost a novelistic quality that is very pleasurable. So I guess I could order you to wait three more years, Dustin, and try again. But instead, I am going to invite you, Aaron, to try one more time. And I'm I don't think you need to read the whole book. I do think that you're at a time in your life

that is a little bit different since the last time you tried. I would give it 10 chapters. Or, or, and you don't, if this is too much for you to complete your bargain, you should read the equivalent number of pages of Lonesome Dove, which is, have you read that one, Monty? I actually haven't, no. It's, Monty. I'm ordering. you to read the whole thing. I'm writing down Lonesome Dove. Or Watership Down. I'll do both.

Yeah, but I'm giving Aaron some choices here. Give it the old California mandated professional development classes try. One more time with Wheel of Time. If you get through Chapter 10 and it's still not for you, Dustin, you must accept it. I will say this is the sound of a game of Thrones. Time. Judge John Hodgman rules. that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Oh, and by the way,

Monty, everybody, watch lanterns. Watch Kyle Chandler from Friday Night Lights on lanterns, which is really good. I hear that's really good. I'm excited to watch that. Dustin, how do you feel about this decision? I feel really good about the decision, but now I also feel overcome with guilt because as John was relating the story of Friday Night Lights and a Game of Thrones, I realized I did come up with the idea after listening to that. Wow. I completely forgotten. Even memory had faded and myth had faded.

I forgot that that was part of the origin story. Yeah, just like in a Game of Thrones world, they don't even believe the dragons were real by the time you're reading the thing. Totally. Aaron, how do you feel about this decision? I mean, I guess it's kind of what I expected. Yeah. I mean, you did make it.

You made a deal. And he lived up to his end. Dustin and Aaron, thank you both so much. Thank you. Thank you. Another case in the books. Another case in the books. We were talking about books, Monty.

We totally were. It wasn't even a pun that I came up with this time. I know. But talking about cases, we need them. The whole show runs on cases. Are you Team Dean, Team Jess, Team Logan, Team Logain, Team Or Vinda or whatever?

How about some more TV disputes? Did you love the Wheel of Time TV show? or do you agree with Dustin that it was bad? Are the Real Housewives show on Bravo? It says here, are the Real Housewives show on Bravo just garbage? Or are they actually the most interesting and complex representation in media for women over 40? I think Jennifer Marmer wrote that one. Would you say?

I think I got to get into Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. I've also not seen one Real Housewives show. Well, maybe you and I, Monty, were going to go on a Salt Lake City kick together. I think that would be fun. Which is the best Real Housewives show? That's a good dispute. What is the most rewatchable sitcom? Everyone's binging old sitcoms.

What's the most rewatchable one? Does anyone actually enjoy reboots and reunions that we've been seeing for the last several years? Was the Gilmore girls a year in the life good? Or was it Gilmore just okay? And by the way, where is that board to death reunion, HBO? I'm in wardrobe. Send us all your, send us all your hot takes, all your disputes, all of your controversial opinions,

write to me at Hodgman at maximumfund.org or go to maximumfund.org slash jj-j-ho. There's a little form you can fill out there. It's very simple. Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Redditor M.D. Dad 333 for naming this week's episode, Laura Lying Under Oath. Join the conversation over at the Maximum Fun subreddit

over at R slash Maximum Fun. We'll be asking for title suggestions there, too, so keep an eye out for those. Evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We're also on TikTok and YouTube at Judge John Hodgman pod. Follow and subscribe to see our episodes and video-only content. You know, our social media producer, Megan Rosati, was telling us that we got some TikToks up there that are blowing up the charts. specifically me making a hot dog in the kitchen at W-E-R-U here in Maine,

me making a Swedish style of hot dog that includes a hot dog, mashed potatoes, and shrimp salad. Does it become sandwich at that point? It becomes something. And if you want to see what it becomes, make sure to get over there and follow us on the social media. We're putting up some interesting video-only stuff there, and including video-only stuff on YouTube,

our YouTube channel, as you know, is Judge John Hodgman Pod. I ask you, if you're listening now, and you prefer just to listen, I honor your choice. Listening to a book versus reading a book, those are equivalent experiences. Stop sending in that dispute because they're the same. People like what they like. They engage the way they want to engage.

However, if you're a listener and not a viewer, I get it, but would you just go over to YouTube anyway and subscribe? It costs you nothing, and it helps us out a lot over there. It really helps new listeners discover the show. And we do a fun little thing, arguably, called YouTube Comment of the Week. This week's YouTube Comment of the Week is from our video only short. Should you lick your wife's face? I forgot about this one.

This was a swift justice we did recently. It was a little swift justice between two spouses, I believe, one of whom wanted to lick his wife's face as a prank. And the wife, surprisingly, didn't like that. and I ruled in a very surprising visual way, a visual only way, and Kaylee Gandhi wrote, I didn't expect that, laughing while crying emoji. What didn't Kaylee Gandhi expect? I won't say, you have to see it for yourself. If you're not watching us on YouTube, you're missing that video-only content.

So please make sure to leave comments there on YouTube. Maybe you'll be featured in a future comment of the week. Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John This episode was recorded by Doug Allen and John McConaughey at Advanced Creative Group in Livermore, California. Megan Rosati runs our social media. The podcast is edited by A.J. McKeon. Our video editor is Daniel Spear, and our producer is the wonderful Jennifer Marmer. Now let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Margaret says, my friend, R.E., says that fairies are magicians because they perform magic. I say that fairies are not magicians. They are just magical beings. Tell R.E. that he's wrong. Are fairies magicians? I'll say this. Fairies are mythical creatures of mostly European folklore. They are tricksters and mischief makers representing the capriciousness and unpredictability of the natural world.

They are magical beings. But they do not perform magic tricks. They do not link rings. They do not cut cards. magicians are something else. These are professional performers who wear dirty black dress shirts and white suspenders

and often big wide ties with pictures of galaxies on them and really kind of grody, hush-puppie shoes. And I know this because that's what they would wear as they all marched into the Magic Castle as I waited outside because I was merely wearing a nice suit and a then-fashioned-era-appropriate pair

of fashionable sneakers. And those were not allowed. but those magicians were in their crummy clothes. Those are magicians, but fairies are not magicians. R.E. You're wrong. Swift justice, complete. Remember to submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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